you or your family member is having open heart surgery, which you trust that surgeon knowing that they will likely falsify documents? we need to ask ourselves this question. it is an extremely important election. we will have supreme court judges. this will affect our country tremendously. host: i will leave it there and and with a little bit from the wall street journal's original reporting yesterday. they said that it was the swiss government who really sought the cooperation from the state department and iran on the deal. that they saw an opening when there was movement made on the nuclear deal that this could happen. they have been negotiating on behalf of the united states on the long-standing dispute between iran

over this military equipment purchase. once this deal was made, the casheans -- the u.s. sent to the swiss banks, that that money was changed in from american dollars into swiss francs and euros and that money was put on this plan and put in iran. if you are interested, go to "wall street journal" and find the original story from yesterday and the follow-up this morning. that does it for today's "washington journal." thank you for watching, thank you for calling in. we will be back tomorrow morning 7:00 a.m. eastern time. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2016] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

>> thanks for joining us this morning. we have several live events today on the c-span networks. at noon eastern, discussion on how the zika virus is affecting women's health issues. it is hosted by the center for american progress. 2:15, michael daniel and other government officials will look at the presidency plan for how the federal government is responding to cyber threats. later this afternoon, president obama will hold a news conference at the pentagon for a global strategy for combating isis. live coverage at 4:15 eastern on c-span, also c-span radio could with political conventions behind us, wrote to the white house coverage will continue on friday with remarks from hillary clinton. she will be at the meeting of the national association of black journalists.

watch her comments live tomorrow at noon eastern on c-span. also tomorrow, donald trump will hold a campaign rally in wisconsin and speak to supporters in green bay. that starts at 8:00 p.m. eastern, also here on c-span. former ohio congressman steve latourette died yesterday after a battle with pancreatic cancer. he served the 19th and 14th districts from 1995 to 2014. he served on several committees including environment, transportation, and housing. several members of congress have been tweeting about the death, including house speaker paul ryan. "all of us will miss our friend and colleague steve latourette. no one can match his fierce sense of duty or his great sense of humor." ohio senator rob portman posted "jane and i are deeply saddened to learn of the passing of my friend and former colleague steve latourette. feel the next. -- he will be

missed." 48 hoursv on c-span2, of nonfiction books and authors every weekend. saturday at 10 a clock p.m. words," "wallter street journal" political columnist kimberly strassel argues the left is using serveral tactics to your the product of to usurp --to usurp the process. >> i think there is a couple of reasons. look, when i started this -- i care about free speech and the first amendment. i am a libertarian when it comes to this. i have no allegiance to one party or the other. i've written a lot about the abuses on the left for my column in "the wall street journal" but i assumed going and i would find a bunch of stuff on the right. i didn't.

"in-depth" live with legal expert jeffrey toobin. he will be discussing his latest heiress."mr.an toobin is also the author of " the oath: the obama white house and nine,"reme court," "the "too close to call," "a vast conspiracy: the real story of the sex that nearly brought down a president," " the one of his life: the people v. o.j. simpson," and "opening arguments." join the conversation with your phone calls and tweets beginning at noon eastern on c-span2. at 7:00 eastern, dinesh d'souz looks at the impact of hillary

clinton presidency would have on america in his book "hillary's america." ktv.org for the complete schedule. , middle east political science scholars discuss turkey's political future following a failed coup attempt last month. they discussed the ongoing applications for turkey, the u.s., and nato. it is about two hours. >> hello, can you hear me? there are five mics. if you can't, we have a problem. professors always want quiet in the classroom. want to welcome you to the international institute.

you will be hearing from you and alexander -- joan alexander and general gray. the topic, the post-attempted coup in turkey quo vadis. i served as an advisor on the middle east and wrote a book on turkish love which is now in its sixth edition, which is a good sign. at this point i will not say much. we all know how important turkey is i think everyone, turks and significantnow-how their forces are internally and externally working on turkey. >> [indiscernible] >> i'm sorry? >> turn it up a little bit. >> that's another thing professors it, when students say "talk louder." but you are not students so i suppose i shouldn't hate you.

can you hear me now? anyway, i think we all know how important turkey his, particularly important to the united states. turkey, as we know, is a member of nato, the central power dealing with trouble in its neighborhood. let's see how it all turns out today. yonah, you are in charge. make sure you speak up so you don't get criticized. thank you. can you hear me in the back? great. youme first welcome all of turkeyspecial seminar on . foremost, iirst and would like to welcome our

panelists and speakers. let me first introduce them in that order. biosnately, we do have the of the speakers in the package you received so i will not go .nto great details identify them specifically. , the deputy director of the international center for the study of a violent extremism, and formerly a of theor and chair sociality department at a university in turkey. his richay note that background, he was a former

chief of counterterrorism operations division for the turkish national police, some 20 .ears of service a visiting assistant professor and director of the ,nstitute for turkish studies school of foreign service at georgetown university. extensivey experience, particularly in the educated in the u.k., published extensively in the field. the director of the center of the united states and of theturkey project

brookings institution. he is also a very distinct academic work for many years in turkey and you can see the long list of his very important field, particularly he will also deal with the european union turkish relations, refugees, etc. , vice president of research of the foundation for the defense of democracies in washington, dc. again, if you look at his brief resume, you will see he had experience also in u.s. government, in the department of someday thanks in

town and he published extensively in the field. i would like to mention that this particular event, as many others that we organize, we have cosponsors in addition to the international law institute, and of course, we do have the potomac institute for policy center, and the international center for terrorism studies. we are honored always to have alfred grneral ay, who is going to make some closing remarks. , the 29th commandant

of the united states marine fellow chairman of the board of regents of the potomac institute. oure certainly welcome speakers. but i would like to welcome also the audience. i recognize in the audience many academics and government officials and diplomats who have very distinguished, i think, experience in the area we are going to discuss. what we are going to do is to give the speakers an opportunity to speak for about 10 minutes, to be followed by a q&a, and certainly we welcome the input of the audience and so on.

now, in addition to that, just for one second will try to use a very sophisticated technology, if it works. ok. i do hope you can see in the i think it isarly important to see the broader perspective of what we are trying to achieve in a very riod of time, is to deal with some of the historical contexts of the turkish republic, the lessons of the present and the future, the implications,, and then the security challenges related to terrorism of the islamic state, the so-called islamic state, the refugee

,risis, internal politics civilian-military relations, government structures, rule of law, economic development, and so on. finally, the external relations which really cover the entire world, all the way from the u.n. to the eu to the u.s., the arab and muslim world, israel, cyprus and when you name it -- cyprus, you name it. i think it depends on the interests of the audience. make 2 additional footnotes, then we will call the ists to make the presentations. always tog look at the forest as well as the trees.

and although we are focusing today specifically on turkey, i would say you cannot deal with turkey, with the challenges, the opportunities, without looking at the broader picture. i that come i mean -- by that i mean the entire world, particularly the west and the united states. i always try to look at the so-called historical lessons. for example, what happened during the month of august, this month, that would command our attention? thank you. have ready specialists who know what to do. august, 20 years ago in 1996, you can see that osama bin importanted a very

declaration of war against the west and against the united , against thendeed entire world. particularly osama bin laden americans.attacks on i mention this because, obviously, this is an issue of national security in the united states and also the world. so this is the broader picture in terms of the challenges. -- soviously i'm a turkey obviously turkey is one challenge in the battle against terrorism in general. and the second one, which i remember very vividly goes back over 40 years ago, back to 1979 in august, when the turkish

ambassador in paris and his by thewere assassinated secret army for the liberation of armenia. i'm mentioning this because everybody is focusing, obviously andy, on the so-called coup to implications, but one is look at the historical context as well to appreciate what is happening. panel,ly, we do have the and you can recognize three of the speakers are turks. with that kind of background. but i want to make sure that the discussions, the presentations of the panelists, the discussion , doeshe audience

represent the personal views of the individuals and they do not represent necessarily the views andhe cosponsors discussion. we recognize the interest. i would like to mention one more thing academically. work on this issue for very long time. why turkey? i would like to mention the work that goes back to the 1960's in terms of our studies and work on turkey, with turkish , interested in turkey. also, academic journals that we .ublish on turkey

i would like to mention a publication developed in ankara, nato-based staff of turkey at that time, partnership for peace, and obviously, there were many other publications -- this is the publication that we developed at the time in order to develop a coalition around the world to deal with security concerns. finally, also, we try to focus on particularly the challenges al qaeda, translated in many languages, including turkish, and also special publications, which, by the way, we publish in cooperation with

the international law institute on turkey and turkish interests to join the european union. with that, i would like to mention that today seminar is another one in the many seminars that we conducted in turkey and around the world, many of the issues, with the exception, of course, on the coup that just that juste --the coup took place. we always try to strike a balance between the security consideration, the human rights issues, and therefore in that spirit, i think we can conduct the discussion today. i would invite our panelists to make the presentations. initially 10 minutes. then you will have more time. ok? thank you.

>> ladies and gentlemen. good afternoon. currently -- and the former chief of police in the counterterrorism department in turkey. -- uld like to start [indiscernible] to a of all, with regard , i think it is so .ritical we understand the democracy and the rule of law. it is essential that we keep

active on rule of law and we are respectful to the human rights and to freedom of speech. --st i would like to start at 10:00 p.m., while everybody -- the question for me, when it happened in the past, he didn't start at 3:00 a.m. in the morning, everybody was sleeping. half the generals in the military arrested. we have about 350 generals in the turkish military. insee who is behind the coup terms of the name of the generals of the people who conducted the coup.

so this is another big question for me. today thatbody knows if you are going to make an attempt to a coup, you need to cut communication and the internet. radio and television, which almost nobody watches in turkey, all the channels were freed broadcast without any problems. nobody from government was arrested, including the prime minister. they were out in public. very abruptly the parliament was bombed. we still don't know which -- who was the pilot behind that bombing. some parts of the palace was also bombed.

i really don't understand what kind of coup it was. if they were not successful, they were doomed. they were going to be arrested. out ins coup was carried a way that they wanted to fail. what was it? for a a godsend, gift ?truggling government i don't know. --h the evidence [indiscernible] i don't want to talk about them but i wanted put on the table when i have. -- what i have.

the great teachers when i was at the economy, -- one of the great teachers when i was at the academy, he told us when you want to see who is behind an attack, you have to look at who benefits from it. i was in the counterterrorism operation for 20 years in nkara, the a capital. police, the of the counterterrorism division, especially in ankara and istanbul. just three hours after erdogan's officers were63 arrested, or they started to arrest those officers.

vacation,em were on some of them were even openly against the coup. -- from aechnical technical standpoint of you, in three hours, the chief of police -- i cannot name the list of and thatle -- distributed it to all of turkey and start the rest of them. this is the biggest question i have. is -- almostber 20,000 people arrested. it obviously tells me that -- [indiscernible] six months to a year, because it is impossible to figure out who

is who or who is behind the coup . if you look at the people who were purged, professors, journalists. nothing to do with the coup. that to what happened afterwards. as soon as the coup attempt happened, the blame started to come out. claimed to be behind the coup. the second was the americans. first, general was behind the coup. then the cia was behind the coup . then obama's name came up. instructions.--mass

demonstrations. today we still have those demonstrations. yesterday alone, or two days ago, there was still demonstrations, and in fact two blocked bye base was trucks claiming that there was going to be another coup coming from the base. when we will at what happened , with massoup demonstrations, blaming the we see that we are that towards an endpoint

we have seen in the past. enemy.create an then blame an everything on .hose enemies then demonstrations against those enemies. level witho another the violent activities, which we have seen with burning flags in front of the incirlik base. i truly believe that the last turkish going to be there isn and i think going to be a salafist turkish

revolution. , newspapers, they said they are pledging $550 million for the next five years. is $200 billion. d gpo's and -- year-en $200 billion. watching the international centers study on violent extremism. attempt was coup unsuccessful. why? they needed to be free to operate in turkey.

logisticalons and support they receive from turkey was stopped. mentioned and talked about. soldiers,ion forces, because there was no coalition providing support from the ground. and without aid and support to our enemy -- [indiscernible] guarantee you they will kill them or if there is no air support. ?here are we going with this

anti-west, & are consenting -- anti-west, anti-american sentiment. a turkishng to have republic with a new constitution, and it is going to be a political summit, close to a salafist ideology. and the coup members, several in as theernment, and prophet mohammed said, is a someone president fidel, that person is not an infidel. he himself -- labels someone as an infidel, that person is not an infidel. he himself is an infidel. enough,, strange turkish authorities banned religious services to those

people. who carries out the suicide attack? concerned about where this strand of islam is going. i would like to tell the story. two days ago, someone i know from the police who was chief of organized crime division was december 2013 operations, corruption charges brought against the minister and his son. he didn't want to get arrested. two days ago, his wife was arrested because he didn't show up.

baby, one-year-old, being breast-fed by his mom. that baby was not allowed to be taken by his mom, and he was left with his high school and middle school brothers and sisters. today while i was coming here, i read an 87-year-old lady was the lawyer sone was not found, or they couldn't find him. instead they arrested his mom. military school, turkey's oldest school, almost 200 years old, was established 200 years ago, 2 days ago,s ago --

with the power the government has right now. today there was news in the media that turkey's most expensive real estate, military school, was being or is being sold to the saudis. so thank you very much. [applause] >> good afternoon. thank you for having me, professor alexander. i've been to give us the last few days. all of my colleague's the panel scholars in

washington, europe, turkey. wetry to make sense of this, will not get anywhere faster in the next 40 minutes or 50 minutes. this is a great wake-up call for political scientists. raised as aeing graduate student we were told in this area was dead and nobody study did any market may be civil-military relations might be back on again. ng, iusiness of coup-maki don't know. let's start from the premise of what actually happened and white actually happened. i think we are still in the stages of getting very preliminary information. of all the colleagues i've spoken to in the new information i've been able to assimilate, there are divergent views. the mainstream here in turkey right now by reputable individuals say the west has got this wrong, the western media is not looking at this from the correct lens, especially

washington, the european capitals. i know the independent newspapers the last few days, the coverage of these issues, because they are saying we are concentrating far too much on how erdogan benefits from this as opposed to who is actually responsible and the kind of trauma turkey has experienced. let me deal with that first before giving you my take on it. this is a very traumatic experience for any society. i guess any society that has to go through the experience of a coup d'état or attempted coup d'état or the administration is likely to be overthrown by a military junta, quite terrifying. going through the streets of a major city like where i was one, see gunships firing rounds and attacking the parliament building, headquarters of the intelligence organization, i don't know if it is quite replicatable in terms of the

trauma it causes individuals. turkish society is very confused and traumatized. the level of public debate we see on turkish media outlets is very, very inadequate to deal with what is going on. of who carried out this coup, we heard one take by yayla here, and i don't know the extent to which i agree with it but i don't have any better information. i propose of you sort of divergent to this but again to my don't have hard evidence to show you could this is my view that has been informed by a collection of everything i've been try to follow the last two or three weeks. it does seem apparent that although the turkish government would like to blame the muslim recluse cleric who resides in pennsylvania here, mr. fethullah gülen, we have yet to see

concrete evidence that there was a direct line between gulen as he sits in pennsylvania to the coup-makers in turkey who carried out this coup. this has yet to be established and one of the things the government will have to prove if mr. gulen is extradited as the wass are very a firstly demanding from u.s. authorities. that being said, there seems to be overwhelming circumstantial evidence, testimonies, some of which we understand are coming out under duress. amnesty international is reporting a great amount of torture, great amount of physical abuse of detained soldiers and would be coup plotters who have been forced to sign testimonials and statements saying they were involved. and that mr. gulen gave the order. it is hard to verify the truth

of the statement. that being said, there are more credible simmons coming out -- global statements coming out from other individuals who are suggesting that there have been significant elements of the to the military who are at least synthetic to the -- sympathetic to the gülen movement who have lain dormant in the military who have seized upon the opportunity to actually and lament and tried to unseat democratically elected government in turkey on one hand and presumably recep tayyip erdogan on the other. why now? one of the mainstream theories put forward again is the suggestion that and the end of this month when the high ministry council, the supreme gathering on the promotional lists on the military staff, the promotions to fill in the biggest slots of the military thatrchy, it was rumored

over 1000 senior officers were going to be let go as part of -gülenn's ongoing de ification of turkey. in the ongoing struggle between gülen and erdogan it seems that matters came to a head between erdogan's forces and the gülen ist sympathizers within the military and other forces who were not necessarily gülenists. was there direct correlation? did orders come through from gülen in america down to turkey? we don't know that. but that might be something we have to concentrate on and see how that unfolds in the future. what is clear is what kind of impact this is going to have a whole variety of factors. the first which is i guess what washington and america, since we .re here, is interested in

it is likely to impact it very negatively. there is an immense amount of pressure brought to bear on the obama administration by the turkish authorities. erdogan's government as well as the akp government is going hammer and tongs saying you have to hang over -- hand over and gülen now. not tomorrow, now. we have a delegation of turkish ministers saying here we are, we want him, we will present evidence. on the american side the americans are saying, great, we will consider it, but the extradition treaty that exists between the united states and turkey which was signed in 1979 and there are 34 articles pertaining to this from anything pe to a whole ra series of offenses which are considered extraditable, turkey's case has to warrant the

american standard of what would be beyond a reasonable doubt. the turkish problem with that is that right now they don't have. -- they don't have it. nothing so far since the turkish authorities have presented against gülen the last three .ears, this is not new it goes back to 2013 although no formal extradition requests has been made. but the response is always been hand him over, and the american response has always been what can you provide in a court of law? once it is made, probably in pencil minute, scranton, low-level magistrate, if it is approved by him or her, the gülen people can appeal that and it will go into federal court and can go all the witch of the supreme court if bush. -- if pushed. this is a time-consuming process and the turks are not in a

position where they are willing to wait for this. there is a whole series of things at risk. the incirlikf air base, in terms of bombing sorties. the turks are hinting at the fact that this might be in jeopardy. that sends shivers down the spine of washington. the second way that this really does impact u.s.-turkish relations is the changing nature of the dynamic of the relations between erdogan and obama and the subsequent administration in washington, which is do we have a nato power that is reciprocal or is the big picture, the tricky site right now transitioning into a quid pro quo approach? unless you hand over gülen, all bets are off. that is were the whole notion of this relationship is becoming is notur and again, this something new. the relationship between turkey

and the united states has been very much on the slide as some of my colleagues as a test to -- attested to for the last two or three years, if not longer. inseems like the government turkey is really to take this a step further, take it and i shop, and really say that if you don't do what we need you to do for us, we might not necessarily be the most cooperative ally in the future and to that extent erdogan has meetings scheduled with russian president they. -- next monday. this has ramifications outside the broad notion of where turkey is headed as a democracy, as far as america is concerned. this is why the turks find it so offensive. they say the western media is concentrating on the wrong things and looking at this from the perspective of what you guys are interested in, washington is interested in, not from the perspective of the trauma experienced, a democracy you are supposed to be an ally of his

not being stuck up by you. the american response from unfortunately, has soured ofogan's on predisposition perceiving the united states as an ally could the chief of intelligence says we have no evidence gülen was involved. the general in charge of central --mand has also said that can't remember what he said. i've got it down here somewhere. i will revisit that one in a second. again, the message coming out from officials here is not what the government wants to hear. the situation in turkey has become so intense and adamant and demanding that lack of action on the part of the u.s. in the way that turkey would like it to act is really straining relations. and something needs to happen

where that his tone down on both sides. this is something possibly awaiting the next administration , certainly in terms of fence mending, but in the immediate future, we do not necessarily should expect to hand or the extradition of gülen. as i second to him that is going to be very time-consuming. he may already have plans to go to another country where extradition without country has not been signed. canada is one of the alternatives, possibly mexico, parts of sub-saharan africa where the gülen movement is very strong. to reiterate, we do not know if there is a direct correlation here is in gülen pennsylvania and the broader movement. it seems like a broad number of his sympathizers for existential reasons had circumstantial motives to instigate this. and that has been reciprocated

in turkey by a massive de-gülen ification on one hand, where you see the purging of tens of thousands of bureaucrats, military officials, as well as scholars and universities being detained, fired, put on administrative leave pending investigation. you also see universities closed down which are close to the gülen movement. universities which are seen also to be very anti-erdogan. one of the speculative also coming out, is this erdogan's moment to the extent that he said this was a gift from god, not just the would be coup makers, but also his this is golden opportunity to weed out and hammered out as much political opposition that had been rising up in turkey certainly since the mid-2000 you

go -- the mid-2000s? i will stop there and hopefully entertain more questions later on. thank you. [applause] , thanks, yonah alexander, for inviting me to this occasion and this panel. i would like to stick to my 10 minutes, because clearly the issue that we have at hand is a very controversial one. already heard -- you have already heard 2 presentations.

i'm not very sure what novelty i could bring to what you have heard so far. professor alexander made 1996, and he made this point. i would like to make reference to 70 years ago. 1946, the usssn missouri sailed into the stumble harbor. -- istanbul harbor. since then, turkey has been an ally of the west. it has been part of the western transatlantic community. had an uncomfortable relationship, controversial relationship, with ups and downs. may notish heart

have always been in place with the transatlantic community. clearly in the course of the last couple of years, there has been addressed away -- a drift away from the shared values of the transatlantic community. and also quite a bit of shoving and hassling over common interests as well has been the case, with respect to syria. to argue that even if at this point in time we may not have the concrete evidence of who was behind the coup, that the coup is a traumatic experience. allow me to equate it to 9/11. this is in some ways the 9/11 of

turkey. and do remember the remark that the president of the time, on you are, made, either with us or not. this is the psychology in which the turkish president is in, and the turkish society is in as well. lot that can be criticized about the turkish president, and people do it. and turkey is rediscovering that freedom of expression. i tried to follow the debates that are taking place in turkey right now. some of them for hours long each -- 4 hours long each. the kinds of people who were not allowed anywhere near the media turkey have now

an opportunity to speak their mind and reflect on their experiences. and it is opening my eyes as an ofdemic and as an expert turkey and maybe broader political issues. one point that has not come up so far is that the turkish and quite a few -- sinan has made reference to the people he is following in the turkish media, people who share the very values to which the united states as a society and to which the european union is committed have huge concerns about the way the turkish state was penetrated by the gülenist

movement. time will tell as to what the facts are. but when you listen to these debates and when you listen to prosecutors, auditory and civilian prosecutors -- military and civilian prosecutors, who had been in due course opened cases on this issue of infiltration have actually faced indictments against themselves. wrongly,, rightly or they are reviewing these indictments on the way in which they were not allowed to pursue their investigations to the fact that these were blocked by gülen ist prosecutors inside the officers, military inside the turkish armed forces. time will tell if this is the case were not. i'm here to share this opinion

that the turkish public at large , including liberal people, including people who are attached to fea freedom of expression, to human rights, to the rule of law. and as i listen to these debates, and those of you who have some command of turkish, i'm very willing to send the , it iso these debates all so fascinating, because the people, i can assure you that they really mean it, but they do flag out the importance of rule of law and the importance of making sure that the innocent is not hurt, together with the culprits, or the ones who have actually committed the crime there. also, what they are underlining is the significance of making

sure that people are appointed to their positions because of their merits, not because somehow they have access to they needin the exams to qualify to enter military high schools, to enter the judiciary, to enter universities, and elsewhere. i've been a university ofessor since 1983, and retired in 2013. so i have a few ideas, a few notions, about exams and about exams that have been compromised. and how that reflects itself in bureaucracies, including the police, the judiciary, as well myself, first of

that's extreme -- firsthand experience, the ministry of foreign affairs. what these debates are also underlining is this interesting expression that some of the turkish columnists have invented, going back to the factory settings of the turkish republic. and the factory settings of the turkish republic is referred to and democracy. i would be one of the first to argue that it is a bit ambitious to argue that democracy was a factory setting back in 1923. do please put it in the context of europe of the 1920's and 1930's. i think democracy at the time simply meant against the

background in europe of the idea that the people somehow would have a say. it took decades for turkey to join the club of democracies and when theed at the time missouri sailed into the istanbul harbor. since then turkey has experienced a series of coups. i have lived through every single of them. 1960, i remember as a little boy, six years old, the recollection i have of it in the streets of is near. that is all i have, my notion of politics had not gone beyond that. 1960 -- sorry, 1971. i was just on the verge of starting university and i saw

what happened, the consequences of 1971. young men of my age were executed, and then subsequently the turkish society and state regretted it, just as turkish society and state regretted that inee ministers were hung 1960. then came 1980. luckily i was in london as a graduate student and i heard it through the bbc world service. post coup, 2007 came the so-called e coup. we are citizens of a country s buthas had these coup

never was the parliament attacked. trembling that the turkish parliament was attacked. it is a parliament that has been sitting there since april, 1920. whoever might be behind the coup , i think the united states and the european union. i emphasized -- empathize greatly. i understand they are angry towards the turkish government and maybe towards the president for the kind of rhetoric and language that he may be using. the exerciseping of building bridges, finding the means for a dialogue. but the united states, i think the u.s. is moving in that direction and the european union has to recognize that this is a

trauma. .ot that different from 9/11 the turkish people and turkish students, some of them are here, are proud that the turkish public went out into the streets and stop this coup in its trails . they stood up in front of tanks. how did the west respond to what happened in 1989 in beijing? we all remember the guy in front of the tank. and the empathy that was expressed for this person. they had to throw themselves on to the past -- onto the path. where is that empathy? turkish opposition parties came together. the republican people's party,

the nationalist party, the kurdish party, they all came together instantly. while i am so disappointed that the u.s. government didn't hesitate, the first one that came out from the secretary of genuineor which i have high regard was a hesitant one. calling all parties to restrain. how can you call all parties to restrain when one is leading a coup against a legitimate government. problematic government, you can't do it. , aer, from the white house statement made it clear that turkey was not going to be treated like egypt.

how do the turkish people feel about it? how do the turkish people feel ?bout this glasses.need reading i hope this is true but this is a tweet from new york times world. link to aeet with a new york times article with a different title. "thehe title here is erdogan supporters are sheep and they will follow whatever he says." this is not a statement you expect from the cradle of democracy.

you may not like him. a president who has received 52% of the public phot -- public vote. there are questions about how fair the election was but it was free. then, the government is presiding that our question marks constitutional interests. fair enough. but the government right now is in power with 49% of the votes. this is not what they deserve, the people who voted for that particular political party. neither did the others who voted for the other opposition parties . and it want to go on realize i promised myself i was going to speak only for 10 minutes to be on the safe side. i realize this is a difficult

issue. but i would like to see the european union and the united states forgive turkey the benefit of the doubt. 1946, the united states sending thethe time misery to the istanbul harbor and the subsequent events. it made out of turkey a democracy. a problematic democracy. that country evolved into a major economic powerhouse. not remember, in spite of all the problems in the country, this is an economy that is still growing at four and a half percent. in europe are secretly wishing that they could do the same area how did turkey come to it? this is where i risk calling

into -- falling into serious trouble with general public opinion in turkey. it is because turkey was part of the western alliance. huge andt now there is -- i can't pronounce it -- commendations against the united states. and to a lesser extent to the european union. you have to understand the context. one of the commanders that has been stopped and arrested and sought asylum with u.s. -- turkish public is acting -- asking the question how on earth a superpower like the united states would not know about what is going on? it is possible it would not know. there are little things that the

u.s. has missed out on but that is the psychology they are actually in right now. listened to a parliamentary group who have come clearly with the intention of trying to build little bridges. recognizing that they need dialogue and recognizing -- i that they cannot afford to burn bridges with this western alliance towards which there is this anger in the european union. yes, erdogan will be meeting with putin. alternative for turkey? is it run a alternative? and i needs an economy

think those who are running turkey right now recognize it even more in this particular context. so to wrap up, it is a difficult situation, i will make it much year to the give a turkish public. the only disappointing part of the delegation was that there was not a kurdish mp included and i wish it was there as well. however, i don't know what the background of that formation was. i remain, frankly, hopeful. i cannot afford to say anything too contrary that turkey will come out of the rut to which it has fallen. but i do really hope it will

come up with a helping hand from the european union and from the united states. imagine how the region would have looked if that misery -- missouri had not sailed into the istanbul harbor and turkey had not become part of the transatlantic community. union does not need to worry about the european union in turkey migration deal because i think the picture would have been a very different one. i'm really sorry that i went on too long. >> [applause] >> that is a hard act to follow.

i want to thank you for having me, professor alexander. it is a pleasure for me to be here today with this distinguished panel. i am going to take a different tone than our previous speaker. what i want to talk about today is the troubling trends that we have seen in turkey over the last 3-4 years. what i would argue is the events that we have seen after the coup has accelerated those trends in my view and i believe that is a very worrying thing for the u.s.-turkey relationship. to understand where we are, i think it is important to backtrack and take a quick look at our recent past. i will start in december of 2012, when reports began to emerge of a scheme that was uncovered where turkey was working very closely with iran

-- it was called the gas for gold scheme and it was a way for iran to evade sanctions. the pressure was on iran because of its nuclear program. sanctions were at their peak. it was a race against the clock. there was an attempt to squeeze iran from a financial perspective to bring it to the negotiating table and prevented from getting a nuclear weapon. it turns out turkey was instrumental in helping iran invades sanctions. -- evade sanctions. it was roughly half of iran's cash reserves at the time. this gave iran more time to make it more leverage and negotiate with the west. i will get to it later, but we learned quite a bit about that scheme -- the gas for gold

an individuale is about to stand trial in the united states and i will explain how he fits in later. thiswing gas for gold, and is to be explicit, there was a real concern that turkey was working against the western coalition at that time. here, you have a nato country that is undermining the global effort to curtail iran's nuclear program. fast forward to 2013 the following year. we see troubling reports of turkish meddling in syria. let me be very clear about turkey's syria policy. togree with it in its terms bring down bashar al-assad. many around the world would as well. we are looking at genocide in syria so it is very understandable that the erdogan government would be opposed to bashar al-assad.

since is a have seen concerted effort on the part of the turkish government to empower a broad range of actors that are involved in the syria conflict. some of whom are very troubling. --eport -- error code that i a report that i wrote with talked to, we government officials who were talking to the turks about their border policy, how they had allowed for jihadi fighters to cross into isis controlled territory and what we heard from these officials was that this was essentially a turkish strategy to bring down the assad regime without having to get involved personally so it was a proxy war. they were not distinguishing between so-called moderate rebels and the more extremist the hottie variety. -- jihadi variety. we saw a trend of traffic.

we saw bulk cash going into these territories. a string of fighters flying to istanbul crossing over the border of a nominal fee of $25 or more. we saw an oil pipeline coming out of syria, into turkish territory and this has been documented by many journalists at this point. the best report is the one from buzzy -- buzz feed. it is very clear the you hottie -- the jihadi groups were able to sell oil on the black market through turkish middlemen. we also saw the sale of antiquities. we saw that southeastern turkey had become a zone of illicit

finance, a zone of support for a range of jihadi actors. there was a lot of concern voiced quietly by government officials. they were rarely voiced beyond a whisper but we did catch glimpses from ash, joe biden and many other treasury officials who were concerned about the illicit finance issues. perhaps a side note, this was a failed strategy on the part of turkey. we have seen blowback inside turkish territory. we have been noting there was the potential for cells to be growing inside turkey. this was not just a southeastern turkey phenomenon but we were starting to see recruitment cells and supporters of isis and groups based in places like on correct and istanbul. ankara and is

terrible. there were strained ties between turkey and the united states. there was the chinese machinery export import corporation that a contractact -- won to sell sophisticated weaponry to the turks. nato allies were voicing concerns about the sale because of the potential for integration of this chinese system into a nato system and what this might mean for cyber attacks or gaining information about nato weaponry. of 2000 13, we saw the leak of the istanbul prosecutor's report for ftd where we focused a great deal on illicit finances. this has been attributed to the

gulen movement and i have no reason to doubt that it was the gulen movement that leaked this report. it is mind-boggling the amount detailed in their. banks facilitating illegal transactions, classic money laundering techniques, over invoicing, amazing ways of bringing money through turkey and on to places like iran. estimated to be around $100 billion. really an astounding report. never quite confirmed as official but it did illicit a massive crackdown. the crackdown on the gulen movement was in response to many of these leaks. what was troubling was that we were not seeing the turkish parliament or the judiciary being able to take action or being able to investigate when

the purges began at a slower pace. noticed the financial action task force was the u.n. of terrorism finance ,nd had finally delisted turkey a country that was not up to standards in terms of its terror finance regime. forey was on the gray list seven years and was not implementing the recommended standards for terrorism finance. later on, there was the hamas war with israel and we noted that the person who sparked that arory. a man named sulla this is the armed wing of hamas. he planned and facilitated and financed the killing and killing thehree teens which sparked

2013 war. even with the recent reproach between israel and turkey, there are still roughly a dozen hamas activists and figures still in turkey today. all the while, we had turkey fighting against the united states in terms of its involvement in the counter isil campaign. until this time roughly last year, turkey joined the fight despite the fact that this was a nato country bordering syria. we still see turkey involved but not to the extent the west would like to see it. this has given one a sense that turkey's foreign-policy has not been aligned with the united states for quite some time. it is certainly not aligned with that of nato. all the while, we did see crack -- crackdowns on the press.

heard, thealready current president has tried to change the system and he is well on his way from changing it to a parliamentary system to that of a presidential system so he is consolidating power and this has also been a concern from state department and other officials that this has been an ongoing topic of conversation. this brings us to the july 15 coup. the consolidation continues. we are seeing signals of potential withdrawal from the counter isis coalition and there is concern of the withdrawal from the u.s. partnership. i think the u.s. turkish relationship is crucial from a geographic perspective, a political perspective, a bridge between the united states and the west -- in the west to the , there is a lot of

talk of whether turkey might be removed from nato or remove itself from nato, i can only tell you that it would be complicated. i think that is an understatement. nato, it istudied not easy to join what it is extremely difficult to be removed. it reminds me of the hotel california. you can try to check out but there is no way you are leaving. i can't imagine turkey would want to do that. i can see a potential downgrading of ties and a steady downgrading of ties and as we have heard a possible warming of ties with russia and iran. think,cern now is for, i the airbase. this is home to 1500 american serviceman, a squadron of a tens, a number of armed drones that have been active in syria,

and we have other military assets elsewhere, including radar, search and rescue teams, which are crucial given how close they are to the border to extract special operators both from the u.s. and other countries that may be operating inside syria. of course, there is a wide report that the united states or western countries have nuclear weapons in turkey. this great strain while these assets are there is troubling. it is going to be important for the united states to consider all thesey plans for military assets and for the 3000 or so total serviceman that are based in turkey. there is great concern that the cia, barack obama, gulen, whoever, that the united states is somehow behind this coup.

it seems the serviceman who are there are subject to danger. we have seen the protests and of anti-americanism that has been spiking. the key from my perspective is to bring turkey back into the fold. how to do this when they blame us for the coup is extremely difficult for me to see. the rhetoric needs to be cast down and the gulen issue is going to be a thorny one. werell see that followers likely involved but to prove that an old man who has been that we canrecluse directly tie him to this plot i think strikes me as extremely difficult. the other thing that i will mention is the gold trigger early on. , is trial, in the early fall

think has the potential to greatly strain u.s.-turkish relations. the trial itself is going to be about sanctions busting. how one individual with strong ties to the turkish government and iranian government was able to move so much gold and so much money in and out of turkey. understand, the story involves the upper echelons of the government. family. the erdogan if that comes out in court it will be extremely volatile, especially in this environment. this is going to be something that i would say could make or break turkish-u.s. relations or at least tip the scales in one way or the other. if the core here is not about whether the united states is harboring gulen, and i think without much argument from or the akp for many years up until 2013, i think the core here is that we are looking

at a leader of turkey who has been on a slide towards autocracy, towards islamism. there is no doubt in my mind that the coup that was attempted was anti-democratic, it was an assault on liberalism, and assault on nato, and assault western values. but i can also say very clearly that what we have seen from this government over the last three or four years has also been an assault on western values. it has also been an assault on nato. it is up to all of us to bring these elements altogether under one roof, u.s. and turkish, and figure out a way forward. right now it seems like a difficult one. thank you very much. [applause] jonathanyou very much,

. and the other panelists for their he well thought -- very well thought insights. question. one i think, jonathan mentioned specifically nato and the challenge their. what is really important to consider is not just what is happening today in turkey or assessay, what to try to partnere of turkey as a for many decades going all the .ay back to the korean war

and turkey's contribution to nato over the years as a partner. it is much broader than turkey itself. the future of nato, european security, particularly against the refugee crisis. my question relates now to the broaderscenario -- scenario. the secretary general of the united nations made a statement someactually expressed grave concern related to the future role of nato as a reliable partner.

since the secretary-general of the united nations doesn't speak for one country but the entire , does the, i wonder secretary-general actually reflect the views of many dozens example,ies -- for whatever it is, of the muslim world.r the non-muslim so the question to the panelists is can the united nations become tool to provide clarity to the confusion of the international community to deal with security otherwise, itse

bodes quite negatively on the future of the united nations itself. >> i think the united nations -- can you hear me? nations is united critical. from several points of view. but as you mentioned, the secretary is representing all of the countries, he cannot, i terms openly speak about and issues in the region, especially the human rights violations and the freedom problems in turkey, which reflects the problems of the whole region in terms of fighting against terrorism, .gainst isis or other jihadis

now, especially to europe, which turkeyg concern because acts as a gateway to those terrorist organizations and it is essential that we stop them at the border between syria and turkey. unfortunately, we cannot do that, so all issues need to be addressed by the u.n.. >> i have great respect for the united nations. however, there is a general recognition that the united onions effectiveness political and security issues, not humanitarian issues or economic issues, is being questioned.

the world without united nations would certainly not be any better off. has createdn, yonah an extraordinary panel. two aspects. one is the external. the other is the internal where we are talking about democracy. i would like to ask a question. i lived in turkey many years ago. i've met turkish friends of all political stripes. one of the things that an american sees is the following. elite, secular, equated with being liberal, the

nationalistic in many cases. is reallyave, what unknown to americans in the past and may be unknown to the turkish elites. a large part of the turkish population is religious. turkey may be the most muslim country in the world, 99.9% muslim. that is quite an extraordinary figure. my own feeling is within the religious part of turkey, there are, of course, divisions. some have mentioned gulenists. vs's call them gulenists erdoganists. i haven't mentioned the kurds or anything like that. the relations between these elements is crucial to the future of turkish democracy. i haven't heard one of you

mention it and i think it would be very useful to add that into the mix along with all of the anguish that america is feeling about what it should think about turkey right now. much more important is what turks are thinking about turkey. questionsments or from the audience? yourself forntify the record? mike? the you very much. i'm from georgetown university and i want to take -- thank the speakers here because i think what we got from this meeting so far is what is really at stake. right. absolutely

what is going to happen to this country? i'm concerned because with all , it concerns me and i'm concerned about it because is basically a pro-democracy, pro-human rights movement. i don't see any danger from democracy precisely coming from that movement. if you have other impressions i would like to hear about it but democratic andis i am more concerned about the other side. let's look to this again. , it wasre of the coup antidemocratic. i think we need to know more about it.

the so-called antidemocratic forces behind it. enough in order to say that it is an antidemocratic coup? or was it one that tried to implement a stronger democracy in turkey. that is an open question. big great steak is turkey's relationship with the west. we have heard about anti-americanism and how much the coup is blamed on the united states, the old story. into this dangerous picture of anti-americanism, some of you will know -- who talked about the anti-american 21st century. criticize the united

states. it criticizes the forces behind this anti-americanism, which are antidemocratic forces. that is what we need to look at. i want to come back to the beginning. he made a point that i didn't quite understand and that is, you talked about the coming revolution. help us to understand who that is? who are the forces behind the coming revolution, which is a most dangerous one if i see the situation correctly? ae the forces behind the coup leftist movement? i doubt it very much. to fight it now, maybe? let's have a discussion about that. i think these are very essential

youes, and again, i thank all for giving us a better sense of what is really at stake and how important it is. thank you. in terms of where we are going from here, i guess you have some critical point and an excellent question. the first was gulen. from investigative point of view, if -- and as far as i know areur militaries ultra-secularist. now or justers here two or three years ago, it was almost's -- impossible to pray

openly inside the military compound. soldier,s a young going to see if they were praying five times a day, because it was deemed a crime. , thest-forward to today major lieutenants that i worked with at the time are the generals today, and i've read that they are gulenists. last time, none of them were. they were multi--- over secularists. if gulen was so powerful in the military, why was he watching for the last three years all these institutions being crushed not only in turkey but they were trying to go internationally. to the not bring erdogan

negotiation table with the generals he had inside the military basically letting him set up for a coup. i don't by the fact that gulen whathind the two, but happened -- there is a strong sense against erdogan. parts ofrom different ideologies chained together against this coup and erdogan but they couldn't carry out the cool the -- carry out the coup because he was aware of it and some generals carried out a counter coup. i still can't see the chief of staff top general in charge today, even though several hundred generals were fired.

they charged the elite forces of counterterrorism who worked really closely to nato. i know there are reports the rest of the generals who are in charge right now are, some of them, pro-russian and say we should join shanghai five. i unfortunately see very often for the last five years turkish rhetoric coming from the religious of turkey, from the government, that we see is against our mother sunni islam. and it is very -- it is a very loss behind isis.

i have witnessed this with my own eyes in the government when i was interacting with isis and al qaeda. underit is redundant and certain circumstances in the past, al qaeda like terrorist organizations, but now it is in our schools. it is being talked openly and --e parts of the government even the ideology which has never been in turkey. >> lb is great as possible, but it is hard to be briefed about this. turkey the problem that -- i cannot disagree with you wholeheartedly more.

the part of the problem is both the gulen movement and erdogan movement have been complicit in trying to turn turkey into their own private playground and it is amazing the extent to which this has been accomplished. i cannot place the gulen movement in any sphere of democratization. i'll start off with 2007. it was something that he was very complicit in. the trials and the horrific treatment of professors, military officers, one of the most progressive education people was in competition with and resulted in a woman dying of cancer being indicted and almost imprisoned had she not died.

movement has been trying to topple erdogan because their interests do not coincide anymore. it has been a mutual attempt to tolerate one another as far as they could go. this was never a project on democratization, it was about seizure of state entities. movement erdogan's again, i have never been a supporter, not for once in my life. the political islamic movement has had a quarrel with the very tenets of what turkey and where turkey emanates from since its establishment and it is only has been0 that erdogan on a quest to eliminate opposition. he looks at politics as a board game of risk. fired 20,000 people here,

let's get rid of general's, it's an existential game. the larger picture is not one where turkey is being led by institutions. it is being dominated by personalities. yes, he is a 77-year-old man in pennsylvania but i cannot condone that anything happened without complicit knowledge of gulen in pennsylvania. ison't have evidence but it highly circumspect. some inve been directives to do this, do that, jail, appointn in professors to this university, i mean, it is just a playground of two dominant personalities and it is such a shame. >> that was quite emphatic.

to sinan,t listened it makes me think of those two american elephants a talk about. it is the grass that suffers. the grass here is turkish democracy and i think that is what happened in the last 5-8 years. it is a challenge, it really is to mold islam and democracy. the rk payay, to 2008,ments of 2002, 2003, then i think problems would begin. thinkalso cannot help but

, if turkey would be somewhere completely different today in the positive sense of the word for whom ierkel, also have great respect, and nicolas sarkozy, for whom i have , had not adopted the language they did towards turkey. quite demeaning language. i was involved in it. turkey made a genuine effort to make the criteria for you and membership -- eu membership. it was not easy, there was a lot of resistance and have heartedness, but it made an effort and society was mobilized in support of it. plan we must forget.

erdogan state his political prestige behind it. what happened? those who rejected the unarmed plan became members of the european union and bent backwards to speak the spanner in the wheels. what was the eu capable of doing? promising that those who had in -- voted in favor would benefit from the lifting of trade sanctions and restrictions on the freedom of movement. union did notan deliver on those problems -- promises. positionut erdogan's vis a visthe --

those. picturevery complicated , and yes, in today's turkey, especially liberals, secularists , are worried about the future. about the space, public space for themselves. however, i still want to be optimistic and these two elephants fighting with each other has created, i think, wisdom and reason. the very good question you ask about all these different groupings, that somehow an equilibrium needs to be found. followedthe policies in the past couple of years that polarized the country more and more needs to be bridged.

i see the way in which opposition parties reacted and the way in which the media, especially the media that suffered in the hands of the , opens up, responded an opportunity for reconciliation. turks to deal with this and kurds as well. but the eu and the united states -- i am arguing -- and i'm sorry i was distracted. i have a piece that will be posted precisely on this issue. policies that can enlarge this space rather than suffocate it. so far, i think what has been said from my judgment is not helping to and large this space. that is why i underlined the need.

iere are a few challenges but must also underline that the world is facing challenges. look at what is happening in brazil. look at what is happening in this country. in this country, you have reaction -- -- to the american society for those who have stood up for that couple that will hopefully maintain the u.s. as a white house towards which other democracies will be able to move. think it doesn't happen, the consequences on turkey. look at the european union. -- i can't find

the expression. it is out of his cage. cage. of its and i belong to a generation from a europe whose phobia had been unleashed from the cages in the 1930's. , andrope has a record hence the u.s. is critical in this and it is critical that democratic forces in europe tried to -- try to see something positive that is happening in turkey and give it the benefit of the doubt. i am going to briefly try to respond to your question.

understandies to what brand of islamism erdogan embraces, i think it is elusive. i think there is a brand of islamism we talked about during the arab spring where erdogan was anointed as this model for islam and democracy and that turkey was slated to be the model for all of these other fledgling democracies. that collapsed. i think that since that time, that failed debt that turkey had seen a i think we have troubling trend and i mentioned some of it during my prepared remarks, but looking at those who are welcome inside turkey thet now, we see members of egyptian community, libyans and , we have seen members of

jihadi groups, and hamas and others. it is still unclear to all of us whether this is the islam that erdogan embraces, that he envisions this to be the islam of the country. he has still welcomed it. i think it is upon us and him to figure out what exactly that mean. we are still to be told that this is islamist light and there is a balance between those who are secular and those who are more religious, but this is exactly what has triggered isis, -- triggered the alarm of the gulenist community, that they are for a quieter form of islamism. the problem with gulen is that

's his opposition to erdogan islamism, we have seen a movement that has resorted to things that we can't possibly imagine here in this country where you are seeing phone conversations being tapped apparently through intelligence channels and being released to the public. classified documents like the istanbul prosecutor's report the in leaked before their time. these are what we would call dirty tricks. what this is, you call it two elephants, these are two people fighting for democracy in their own country and in the process strangling it whether they know it or not. for oneve enough time or two other -- can we have the ?ic

.> thank you i want to thank everyone who joined this panel. about theve to talk things that have been mentioned about turkey, isis and other issues. relating to turkey and the turkish government, i think it absurd kind of -- because turkey is one of the countries that have suffered and --om isis's ideology about the facts, one of the panelists asked why the coup started at 10:00 p.m. and not

3:00 a.m.. it was planned for 3:00 in the morning. we have seen that from the declarations of the coup. it was planned for 3:00 in the morning but the military informed the intelligence agency they had to start earlier than it was planned. why? system. the medication -- the communication system. failed and when they failed , they decided to bomb the base. >> they failed because they didn't know there was a backup. it had only been put into place two weeks earlier. purges. the

there was an ongoing investigation since 2013 after the first attempt by the gulen ist movement. it was declared a terrorist organization by the council of turkey. it to attempt just made earlier and faster than was planned. so it was a part of the ongoing investigation anyway. think it was clear in the statement that we are very concerned about the ongoing sm in turkey and we think the united states is all, butd the coup at

the people on the streets -- it is easy for the people on the streets to make some connection that they see some statements about justofficials after the two. -- after the coup. they tweeted about it calling for it to be more democratic. the streeterson on can make this connection very easy but ministers, they took several times that this is not true and turkish-u.s. relations are very important to us. we have to be conscious about what we say and do in this political climate. the operations, from the first moment until now on the highest level, president, prime minister, reissued several times that turkey would be in and just after a

couple of days it was closed because of these extraordinary times at the turkish -- for a couple of days. now it is fully operational. so questioning turkey's role in nato and others, because coalition is somehow far-fetched from my point of view and i can say that turkey has been a very important part of the alliance for the past 60 years hopefully our allies will stand with us against this coup attempt. gray, it's your turn.