tomorrow morning at 7:00 a.m. eastern. have a great wednesday. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2016] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] here is a look at some of our live program coming up. join us and a half hour for a conversation with the founder of an antigovernment movement in zimbabwe, hosted by the atlantic council, set to start at about 10:30 eastern. later, an event calling for a presidential pardon for marcus garvey, who was convicted of mail fraud in 1923. run the national press club, that starts at 1:00 eastern.

institute hosted a conversation on the mortgage market. that will be live at 6:00 p.m. eastern. to thews from the road white house this morning, republican nominee donald trump once again has shaken up his campaign team and what he is calling an expansion. has been named as the new ceo. paul manafort, the campaign chair will retain his title. the staffing change hammered out on sunday and said to be formally announced this morning. some will see it as a demotion for mr. manna. for completeg election coverage. >> we need serious leadership. this is not a reality tv show. this is as real as it gets.

>> we will make america great again. live coverage of the presidential and live presidential debates on c-span, c-span radio app, and www.c-span.org. monday, september 26 is the first debate from hofstra university. tuesday, october 4, vice presidential candidates mike pence and tim kaine debate at longwood university. sunday, october 9, washington university host the second presidential debate, leading up to the third and finalmonday, se first debate debate between hillary clinton and donald trump taking place at the 19.ersity of nevada october live coverage of the presidential and vice presidential debates on c-span. listen on the free c-span radio app, or watch live anytime on-demand on c-span.org. a discussion on appeal of

libertarianism during this election season. we will show you as much of this as we can until we go to the atlantic council for a look at that antigovernment movement in zimbabwe. host: you may recognize past ine from some of her spotlight magazine articles on "the washington journal." earlier this summer she was editor in chief of "reason" magazine. read meone who's never "reason" describe your mission to them.ublication guest: we are the magazine of free minds and free market. foremost libertarian magazine in the united states. so for some people you might typicallyhat as being conservative, socially liberal. e like sex, drugs and responsible budgeting. and we've been around since 1968 in print form. up on our 50th anniversary. host: circulation? staff size, budget? guest: print circulation of 50,000.,000,

we have most of our traffic is on the web. 4 millionmething like visits to the web every month. he staff here in d.c. is about 15 or 20. we also have an office in los angeles. host: is there a libertarian way running a news magazine as you take over this role of chief? in guest: i would say it's like herding cats but i think that's journalists of all persuasion. nothing special ability "reason" in that respect. host: how much freedom of choice do your writers get in picking their stories? direction do rial you give? guest: we give a fair amount of choice. of more because we're frequently covering things under covered by other outlets. we've been on the criminal several eat for decades. legalization. covering the house of defense

its money.spends all of the things. reporters who e have been on the beats just individually for decades so we work. them to do good host: special lines for 202-748-8003 if you are a libertarian, want to call in. otherwise republicans 202-748-8001. 202-748-8000. independents 8002. markets, smaller government, libertarianism. doing in ose things election 2016? great is the answer. i would say we have an unprecedented authoritarian pair candidates at the moment. hillary clinton alienated some her r own party for aggressive stance on foreign policy intervention. favors expanding government in almost every area

of into theand sort broader world. donald trump has his own red the when it comes to libertarian mind set. it's possie he might enact a policy or two but i don't see any particular reason to trust him to do so. 2016 has not heard a lot that sounds like music to my ears candidates. major host: do you think this election towards people more libertarianism? guest: i do. we're seeing it in the polls, in johnson.of gary he's frequently polling double digits. the threshold to be on the stage for this debate is 15%. he's really falling a bit short now.hat right as is always the case with these there , polls, tallies, is an opportunity to jimmy the numbers. i think we'll see how that ends up. an unprecedented number of people who don't

affiliate with any party. those people of are looking for something maybe they wouldn't call themselves libertarians but maybe they should. they're looking for something republicans but without the overlay of bad elations with minorities and with gays, which the republican party is infamous for, among younger voters. host: this issue came up last week. viewers asking how that 15% threshold is measured. commission on presidential releasing on monday the polls that will be averaged to out who is receiving 15% support nationwide. abc, washington post poll, cbs new york times oll, cnn opinion research corporation poll, fox news poll and nbc wall street journal. ive polls that will be picked sometime in mid september. chosen by frank newport according to the

commission release that came out monday. some news on that. johnsonjohnson, is gary a good libertarian? guest: he's a pretty good libertarian. here's also a race to the bottom when you start to get into the contest business. it.rsonally am intent about i think he's more libertarian major ther of the other choices. libertarian in the green party candidate. a totally orthodox libertarian in every single way. his vice , presidential pick, is closer to what you would describe as a republican. they were both republican governors. when you look at their records hey do frequently look like republicans. but when you hear what comes out mouths, pretty libertarian. splityou talked about the in the wings of the party. what are the wings of the

libertarian party? wings are smaller. ings of the little chicks as opposed to a hawk. but there are people for whom more about different points of policy. there are people who come to the ibertarian party for their foreign policy. libertarian party has a way of interventionist. for being interested in sort of defense only, defense policy. many, many shades of gray that you can get into u.s. about how big the military should be. should we have a military at all. and on the social issue you will as long as ho say the government isn't interfering people should be allowed to make own choices. so people who will see places where they want to pull back rom that slightly in different areas. for the most part libertarians subset.eady their own you can divide political

parties, and people do. it's not quite as main stream. host: you are our guest for next 35 minutes. we're talking about your work as "reason" chief of magazine. 202-748-8003. republicans es for and democrats, independents as usual. ommy is an independent from tennessee. tommy, you're up first. good morning. caller: good morning. i like the libertarian party, for. they stand in fact, i voted libertarian in 1988. my question is, this talk about government and big government. i believe in efficient government. way i see it, big government leads to slavery and small government leads to anarcy. how can the libertarian party be more efficient in their overnment instead of necessarily smaller?

guest: sure. your question. so, everybody believes in efficient government. f you ever listen to any speech, you are going to hear variant of, we'll cut spending abuse. small government is a proxy for efficient e government. when we're asking a government to do what it does better, it's individual. with an if you ask governments to do less, there's a slightly higher chance that it won't mess up the things it tries to do. i think that applies across the defense downtional to, you know, micromanaging what the vending machine in the school cafeteria. if you're trying to do both of those things using a giant going to mess re up a lot of it. efficient government is the way to think of it. do think there's ples where this actually limiting the list does wille government not only get you better

outcomes, it will also free up eople to make their own choices, which, while not choice better than no made in washington. host: the caller concerned ab the line between efficiency and anarchy. guest: there's a famous line. mall enough to drown in a bathtub. that was once something people said all the time. that from don't hear republicans any more. i think there's a very small things that the federal government in particular should be doing. t's probably just looks like protection of life, liberty and property. is definitely not stuck in he category of school vending machines. not necessarily anything that all or better by a private entity. o that's stuff like deciding which car is the safest car. consumer reports tells

us that. that's when you get into more libertarians.th what is the role of the fda? probably a much smaller one than now.e right that's something that makes this sell on the libertarian party harder. ost: bonnie is in riverton, wyoming, a republican. bonnie, good morning. caller: good morning. i would like to know if gary believes that there is -- od and that there is no that we're made from monkeys. definitely have to ask gary johnson that or see what he has said on that topic. one thing i will highlight here, reason" magazine is what we call a small l libertarian publication. we are not a publication as a party.arian we are not in the tanks of the libertarian party. spokesmen ainly not for the libertarian party.

that said, i think americans in very very strong aetheist to politicians. that's a shame. host: here's something gary johnson had said. ary johnson said that most people libertarian they just don't realize it. do you agree? guest: i think that's guest: i think that's a little optimistic. i think americans in particular have a lot of libertarian impulses. founding is a pretty libertarian project in a lot of ways. is a pretty libertarian project in a lot of ways. to say we want to bring closer to home to govern ourselves where we can we want to let people to be free to make their own choices. would almost anyone's support a drawing down in areas of

government where things have gotten out of hand? i think so. libertarians, (202) 748-8003. as usual., ken is an independent in new york. caller: brief question. i'm wondering what the libertarian position on climate change is. early on in the climate change debate more libertarians did tend to be on the side of denialists. flakailey took a lot of for that at the time, saying the evidence shows global warming is real and almost certainly man-made. the place libertarians have

something fresh to contribute to that debate which is very polarized is to say that actually restrictions on emissions are almost certainly the least efficient way to solve this real problem. many libertarians favor a carbon tax which is a technocratic solution that gives more leeway for individual choice on the part of individuals and companies. othe people who are interested in more out -- things like geo where we look at a technological fix to the problem rather than a puritanical everybody turn your thermostat down type of approach. in general libertarians would say that the advent of cheap energy is something that has been a huge force for good and when we worry about global warming is easy to overlook that.

ton we have the ability power our cars and houses and computers we do great stuff and developed countries are energy users and the extent in the dangerous gases is actually decreasing as we get smarter and wealthier and our technology improves. in general i don't think you will find many people these days in the libertarian world who would not say global warming is real. vary dependingy on the libertarian you run into. host: let's talk to a libertarian in oregon. good morning. caller: good morning. i pulled up your interview with the libertarian johnson. i was quite impressed with him

and i have been a democrat my whole life. i was wondering about foreign policy on this regime change, it's just wonderful. it's the best thing that could happen to america. what i want to know is what since theyeir view are fiscal conservatives, for the poor and disabled that we have in america that need help? what would we do with that segment of people with the conservatism they have in the? at? this is the most frequent question about libertarianism overall is what do we do about people who really need government help the most? the first thing i would say is as much as i might like it to be true even if we elected a libertarian president tomorrow

libertarian policies don't go into effect instantly 100%. libertarian, any compassionate human you would meet with say there are so many things on the list that are inefficient, wasteful, dangerous government programs to get rid of before you get to the true social safety net that are actually helping the very poorest people. there are a lot of programs that we think of as a social safety net that function more as middle-class entitlements like social security, medicare and medicaid. libertarian with say those programs need to be cut back. for a lot of americans that is the third rail. be offputtingto to them. it is so important to distinguish between should we

retain programs for people who would literally be serving without them -- probably. we leave all of our major entitlements completely intact? definitely not. that is a distinction that frequently gets lost in the chatter. you hear politicians vilified for wanting to leave little old ladies starving in the street. maybe we should not the cutting checks to rich old people just because they are old. that gets into the question of social security. the notion that if government doesn't do it no one will do it is something that libertarians would push back on. there is all kinds of fantastic andate charity in america

those programs very frequently do a better job of getting resources where they are needed that government programs. host: you said it was very unlikely that we will elect a libertarian tomorrow. is that your estimation of the gary johnson campaign? guest: it is. it is just a realistic point of view. i would love to see the gary johnson campaign do as well as possible. not least because i want the two major political parties to take notice. i just can't imagine how the numbers would work out to actually elect a libertarian in this cycle or the next couple of cycles. fundraising numbers according to the washington post. the johnson campaign has raised more than $2.9 million since the start of august.

zack is waiting for you in bethesda, maryland. independent. good morning. caller: hi. good morning. i am a pragmatist. i'm not an ideologue. i'm calling in and i'm just wondering what libertarianism is to begin with. who are these people? are we talking about rand paul, ron paul? who are these people? rand paul has described himself as a libertarian conservative or occasionally as libertarianish. a lot of american politicians who would borrow that label use it are definitely not what you would describe as orthodox libertarians.

i think the who are these people question is a legitimate one, but to my mind is the more important one is what would they do if they had their way? see a lot of you policies that resonate with americans and they are not seeing them from the major parties. who iss really no one maybe our foreign entitlements have gotten too far. maybe this is not the right ring for america to be doing. the shades of gray are very subtle and that is where libertarians have a voice in the purpose. on spending we are hearing both parties saying our debt is not a problem. we need to spend more money on the things that i like. we won't worry about everything else. i think it's important to have a voice saying actually maybe we

shouldn't spend money on everything all the time and we don't have it. in that sense libertarianism is pretty pragmatic. in terms of actual human beings who are libertarians you can look at thomas massie, mike lee, paul ryan has warned that labor over the years. there are a bunch of folks who are libertarianish on the hill. host: on the cover of every issue of reason it notes that it is the magazine of free minds and free markets. been working at reason since you are an intern in 2000. was there a point that you became a libertarian in your life bac? guest: there is an entire book about this. many libertarians wind up there thanks to eitheayn rand.

as a 15-year-old in virginia i read the fountainhead and thought, maybe this lady is on to something. i started reading reason magazine in the late 90's and was an intern. a couple of other jobs in between and came back in 2006. host: where else did you work? guest: the weekly standard and the washington bureau of the new york times. host: what brought you back? guest: i had lunch with the editor to pitch a freelance piece and he said, come back and work for us. best decision i could have made. working at reason has always been my dream job. to the editor is particularly exciting. host: with us for the next 20 minutes or so. maria is on the line for democrats. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call.

gary johnson used to be our governor. i used to work at the state. he never gave us any raises or anything like that. and he believes in small government and i was thinking he believes in small government but he wants to be the president. and that to me is not small government for him. says, we are he very democratic here. we are big-time democrats. but i'm sure a lot of people think that's what he wants but i would never vote for him. thank you very much. guest: i think somebody has got to be president. most libertarians in the united states in 2016 with say that is probably not the first thing we want to abolish. i would like to see somebody with more libertarian tendencies in that seat.

host: mark in tampa florida. i guess my question, we are talking about money in the government. is a self security funding along with medicare and medicaid i believe. one question i did have was that , theyn lyndon johnson removed money from social security and it was supposed to be much more robust than it is now. i guess that was my question. she believes we should reduce or look at those entitlements in reduction. i've had a lot of arguments over the years with different people, democrats and republicans over this particular subject. kind of ans actually arcane subject in a lot of ways because the social security

trust fund is either something that is totally real and absolutely exist and all of your money is waiting for you in it or it is a complete accounting figments that is actually just a dusty file cabinet full of ious depending on how you think money works in the government. to my mind that question is less important than the broader question of who should we be transferring money to? right now we have a situation where every single month we are have moreecks to who income in many cases than the average american. who have morele assets than the average american. in a situation where funds are limited touches all the time in real life, it seems inappropriate to my mind and to anyone who thinks the government should be an agent of redistribution in favor of the , thatn any form

particular practice seems to be one we should reevaluate. on the tableat's right now is very incremental. raising the age of eligibility for people going forward. actually the democratic party has shifted in the other direction. adoptingllary clinton a program that looks much more like bernie sanders's proposal to lower the age of eligibility for some people. it seems like a step in the wrong direction if our goal is to spend less money and spend money more efficiently to actually help people as opposed to just shuffling cash around to buy votes from older people. is on the line for democrats in minnesota. good morning. you're on with katherine mangu-ward. guest: the main purpose of a libertarians believe is i've got mine and if you don't that's just too bad and the idea that you would destroy social

security and medicare and medicaid as we know it would destroy the american economy in no uncertain terms. the idea that government spending is that is nonsense. president eisenhower created the middle class as we think of it today by taxing the rich at over 60% and using that money to

somehow by saying people should be allowed to make their own choices, that they should be free from the web of restrictions that governments frequently impose on them, that nation be allowed to move across national borders, buy goods made in other countries. the idea that that would only benefit the rich is i think pretty manifestly incorrect. host: why does that stereotypes

exist? it does require two steps to say, when you create conditions of economic freedom, -- thewho are suffering easiest thing to say is just write them a check. if people are poor, let's and the money. to say ifttle hard people are poor, let's create the conditions where they can buy and sell goods that are cheaper, increasing their purchasing power. that's great the conditions where they have more choices for employment. maybe it requires 10 more words, and that is not something people have the patience to hear. that is probably a flattering description to say it is only the smart people that understand libertarianism, and that is not true, but i think the other piece of it is, it is easy to see very rich people as the

others. we will take money from them and spend it on people like me, but if you look at the actual tax plans of both major parties, they are talking about increasing taxes on people who are not just bill gates. people you might easily defined as upper or even middle-class. to get the numbers to balance out you have to go pretty deep into the income bracket. seeing those transfers not only as let's take bill gates's money and give it to people -- another way to break that stereotype. host: libertarian in florida. good morning. caller: good morning. i'm really enjoying the show today and i'm definitely voting for gary johnson this all. i switched from republican to independent to be able to vote in the florida primary but i am 100 percent with gary johnson

and this is to all of america. we have two blatant liars and gary johnson is very ethical and he has great moral character and he is a leader. he's a thinker. and i really think we have to get them to 15%. and i'm asking america to say let's give this guy a chance because his character above and beyond donald trump or hillary clinton by far and thank you are much, and catherine, voting for gary johnson? i didn't hear that. host: you want to talk about your boat? guest: i actually don't vote. the last time i was on this program i talked abo t cover story i wrote her reason magazine in 2012 about why i don't vote. if you want to vote and you find it to be a delightful experience

by all means go for it. your boat? i don't vote not least because journalists are pretty busy on election day. there's not a huge chance that my vote is going to be the one that decides the election. i think the idea that there are people out there who are looking at the major party candidates and saying libertarians seem the most sensible, that is new. mostly people say they are so wacky. since they are saying at least he seems to mostly tell the truth and he was the governor of a state for a while that did ok, the libertarian as the moderate and reasonable choice shows that 2016 is a weird election. host: is there something besides time constraints for why you don't vote? guest: yes. from a mathematical perspective the chance that any individual vote will sway the election is minimal. it is nearly zero.

it is megabucks lottery odds that you will be the decider in the election. doubly so if you are not in a swing state. this idea that if you don't vote you can't complain, those kinds swing state. of ideas are kind of pernicious. complaining is the most important american right. this is what we do. we complain. this is something you cannot lose the right to do no matter what. voting certainly something that for many people they experience as a civic religion. they find enjoyable. they like to vote for their guy and that is all fine and it is mostly an expressive act. it is not something that is likely to change the outcome. it is kind of a nerdy statistical point for the most part. i don't vote for that reason. host: on the line for libertarians. joshua is in washington.

caller: don't you just love being a libertarian? we are the only party with a sense of humor. just look at the numbers. you will get something to laugh about. don't you find it fascinating how all of a sudden the libertarian party who was ignored since its inception is -- >> good morning, everyone.

my name is peter david i have the privilege of being the director of the atlantic councils africa center. on behalf of our chairman, jon huntsman, and our president pratt cap, welcome to the atlantic council for this morning's conversation. it is really a privilege and a distinct pleasure to this morning be able to welcome pastor evan mawarire and here to the atlantic council. evan is a zimbabwean pastor of a small church, and until april of this year, i admit, he was not widely known to, even within his country, let alone to those of us that follow african affairs, or otherwise outside of the country. he was not a political figure or .ctivist in fact, his identity as an

average citizen of that country is probably fundamental to the #thisflag citizens movement gaining traction throughout his country. now known to all of us through the trade back -- trademark zimbabwe and flag wrapped around those of the, familiar of his actions in the months. we all know about his frustration with the corruption and injustice and poverty experienced in zimbabwe. it took to social media to express disappointment at the lack of progress made in the country since independence. powers, theantha country that was once the bread basket of south africa becoming a basket case over the course of a decade. beganve that

spontaneously see after a video that he posted went viral, since he began to speak out, he is calling the government to account. following the nationwide shutdown initiated by the citizens movement, he was arrested, his house and office were searched with a warrant that curiously claimed that he had stolen a button. i knew things were bad in zimbabwe. i did not know they were that bad. despite consistently calling for nonviolence, he has been charged for inciting public violence. later changed to subverting a constitutionally elected government. i suspect the news coming out in the last 48 hours, you will be shortly charged with being a cyber terrorist, which makes you a first at the atlantic council. we have posted many conversations on cyber terrorism.

we have never hosted a cyber terrorist. anyways, thousands of well-wishers have gathered around the courthouse when you were arrested and brought to trial, waiting for the verdict. you were subsequently released when the magistrate throughout the absurd charges. we are very privileged to have you here, not only because you have ignited the hope of many zimbabweans who have rediscovered the courage to make their own individual voices heard, but also you have reignited in those of us that follow this country from afar our own belief that perhaps somehow, some sort of peaceful transition is possible. for that we thank you. stagein us here on the where our mandate here at the atlantic councils african center has been to promote insperity, promote stability and security africa through greater

geopolitical partnerships, with the peoples and the nations of africa, and certainly that comes with a peaceful transition in zambales. it we have had the pleasure of hosting anyone from government ministers to members of parliament to members of the opposition here. it is now our privilege to welcome you as a representative not of a political movement, per se, but of the aspirations of a people that have been longing for some time for peaceful change and progress. pastor evan, welcome to the atlantic council. the floor is yours. [applause] evan: wow. if, three months ago, you had that i would have to

speak on behalf of my country, or if you have told me three that i had to run , if you toldrnight me that my family would be accosted in the middle of the if you told me that my kids would be watched at school as my wife picked them up, i really would have asked that you had a medical checkup , because there was no way that i could've ever planned what has happened. by me first of all start acknowledging the presence of my fellow citizens of the beautiful nation of zimbabwe.

thank you so much for standing for your nation. thank you for raising your voices, from thousands of miles away, we heard the voices and we felt the passion and unity, and we are so excited that distance means nothing now to you and me. we have learned that we can be won and that we can stand for what we have always believed, and that you and i communicate fromch other now in ways people that are far removed from the reality we live in do not understand. we have had zimbabwe in our hearts for so long. zimbabwe can be better than the one we have. have takenyou and i ap can into our hearts to look at the zimbabwe we long for, and when we had the chance to take it out, on our own, at night when we can back at home, or when we watch our kids sleeping, and you wish to yourself, it's only zimbabwe could be the nation it is supposed to be.

i believe we are standing at the cusp of an opportunity that allows us to see this beautiful nation become exactly what it is supposed to be. chance too take this thank the citizens of the world, that have allowed us to be able to congregate here today and tell our own chance to thank the citizens of the storyr own eyes, with our own voices. when i think about zimbabwe and i think about where we have come from, i think about the fact that my grandfather went to war against colonialism, and so did my father as a young man. and those two men did not see what they fought for. they gave birth to me and i have not seen what they fought for. i have come to a place where my children, my five year old and three-year-old, have to see the kind of zimbabwe that my forefathers believed in when they went to liberate our country. i made the decision i was not

allowed to people that took my father's dreams to take my. they have taken mine. i am 39 years old, but they cannot take my children's dreams. you cannot do that. you have to forge me, am so passionate about zimbabwe. and sometimes, you have heard about zimbabwe, but you hear it through research. you hear it through statistics, you never get to see the tears. sometimes, the tears are necessary. for you to understand. votes. it is not about .t is just about life it is just about wanting to be free in our own country. it is about me wanting zimbabwe to be the best place for a ean to live.

my friends say, you cry too much. please do not cry when you go. [laughter] but this is happening in zimbabwe, we are crying. we cannot suppress the tears anymore. ,e have been taught for so long to put up a bold face to always make a plan, but we cannot do that anymore. that is what caused me to stand up. that is what has caused me to be able to raise my voice and say, i don't know what may happen to me, but i cannot justify my silence anymore. the bible, which is a force that drives me, says in james, sayser one, verse 27, it true religion, that god our father accepts, is to fight for the widows and the orphans.

zimbabwe has the unenviable record of a rising number of dadsns, because moms and are dying before they can see their children grown up and enjoy the sweet spots of zimbabwe. they are dying of diseases that can be cured. they are dying because they have no access to good health. they are dying because they do not have decent incomes to look after their children. so, as a pastor, i cannot justify my silence anymore. when men and women sleep on the streets, and the irony of it is, it is not just the street. zimbabwe, there is a street named after robert kuba -- robert moog abbe, our president. night, hordes of vendors, old senior citizens, old women sleep in the streets together ,ith their grandchildren

because their daughters and sons have traveled to lance far off to work for their family. so grandma must sleep with that child on the street, not because she does not have a home, but she was not able to make enough profit. she could not make $.50 on her six tomatoes to be able to go home and come back the next day, eo they sleep on robert mugab street. that is the reality of what our nation is going through. on a road named after our own president. we are saying our government has failed. we are not afraid to raise our voices, because it is the truth. the citizens of zimbabwe are the missing link. we are the missing voice. we are the voice that has not been present in the timeline of building zimbabwe. we have realized that. over the years we have called on foreign powers. we have called on the african union. we have called on all sorts of people to come in and help.

while we are glad for the help, we realized that -- nobody loves a zimbabwean. we have to be at the forefront of pushing our country in the direction we wanted to go. we cannot expect anyone to do it for us. so what began as an accident has , and i amme a voice glad it is not about me. i am glad my fellow citizens realize it is not up to one person and it is not about him. he may have spoken up first but every one of us is responsible for where our country needs to go. with a simple video i posted one day as i sat in my office and so frustrated at the situation. to raise school fees for my children and still have not been able to. the reason why i recorded that video is because i looked at the small flag that sits on the desk in my office.

and i thought to myself, this flag makes a promise to me as a zimbabwean. but what this promise stands for in a state of my nation are so far apart, i felt like this flag was a fraud. i felt like the promise had been compromised. that everything that this flag stands for is something that is a promise that has been broken. but it also dawned on me at that moment of frustration, as i limited the fact that my country seem to have stood in the way of my dreams, it dawned on me, i'm the one responsible. i am the one responsible for helping zimbabwe to regain an honorable place amongst the nations of the world. i realize that me and my fellow citizens, wherever we went, we would hide when we saw the zimbab fg. that we would keep silent and hope no one noticed when people were talking about zimbabwe and what was going on. we were so ashamed.

now the idea is that you and i must stand. we will represent zimbabwe politician,any because we live the life every day. we are the month that case one goes on in zimbabwe every day. to join, i really come my fellow citizens to tell that story of zimbabwe, to tell how we are turning it around, and to invite anyone who wants to help us to come and do so on the condition that you are helping the citizen. that you hear our story, and you understand where we come from. but if the world was never to help us, if there was never going to be anyone that would come to our rescue, we want the world to know that we have discovered that we are the heroes that we have been waiting for. [applause]

i will and my opening remarks this morning by letting you know that i am not a man of vast , but ional assumptions do know when i am hungry. i know when i can see that my future is being destroyed. this one statement encapsulates how we stand and how we carry on today, and at sibley says this. cause thef we cannot politicians to change, then we must inspire the citizens to revolt -- to be bold. that is our rallying cry. have is each other. we are discovering that our power is in our numbers. we are discovering that the tenacity we have to ride through tough economic times must now be

used to face our own government who will not listen to us. all we have said is they must be held accountable. they have threatened us, they have arrested us. they have beaten us, as early as a couple of hours ago, my countrymen in zimbabwe, today demonstrating against the cash notes thatthe bond want to be introduced. citizens were beaten. we want everyone to know that they will be us some more, they will jail us more, but we will only get stronger. the generation is now on their hands and we have had enough. we have drawn a line in the sand that says we will hold you accountable. if we voted for you, we will ask the tough questions. so even as we discuss this this morning, you do so with the thought that my brothers and sisters on the ground in zimbabwe face a very harsh reality. my very presence in the united states is courtesy of of citizen

number one in zimbabwe, who himself said people like ma warire have no place in zimbabwe and must leave. but that is my home. absolutely nobody, including the president of the republic of zimbabwe, can ban or any other citizen from my home, for standing up what i believe. i close my remark for staying what i said inponse to the president the first time he asked me to leave. i said, there are many things you can do, mr. president, but there are two things that you are powerless in this season to do. you cannot stop the sun from setting, and you cannot stop mine from rising. thank you. [applause]

peter: thank you very much, pastor evan, for those remarks. very inspirational remarks. it left us with a great deal to ponder. we will carry those sentiments , notith us and apply them only in the case of zimbabwe, which we know is close to your heart, but many other nations in africa. about if we cannot convince the politicians, then we have to inspire the citizens to be bold. manynk that applies in places, so thank you for bringing that voice. now to moderate and made his -- by the way, i

neglected one of my obligations earlier as acting chair to if you are tweetinge out or engaging in social media or cyber terrorism about this #aczim.he has tag is very delighted to facilitate this conversation. the newest member of the if youm here at the atlantic council's africa center, a person who worked hard over the last few weeks to pull this event together, along with the other members of the team. chloe mcgrath is a south african fulbright grantee who recently joined as a visiting fellow, to develop our southern afri work and to reinforce it. we decided we needed to build up , because of what was going on in zimbabwe but also in other countries in southern africa, we

needed to reinforce our work in that part of the continent. chloe grew up in malawi, worked in south africa, tanzania, kenya, and zimbabwe in a variety of research and consulting positions. followed the events unfolding invents zimbabwe, and recently, for those of us that are washington insiders, wrote a very powerful and good piece in foreign policy explaining the significance of movement.lag when she was previously here with movement. when she was previously here with us during her graduate already asan intern, an intern, she showed extraordinary product -- promise. she wrote the case study on external support for nonviolent civil resistance movements in zimbabwe for the atlantic siteil's strategic force future of authoritarianism project.

so we are delighted to have her back. delighted to turn the floor over to chloe to moderate this discussion with pastor evan. [applause] chloe: thank you, everyone, for being with us today. it's a great privilege at the atlantic council to host evan mawarire. thank you for sharing your heart with us. that is something that resonates with all of us massively. i want to start by asking, it seems that you became an activist is some ice in mistake, if you don't mind me putting it that way. i know a lot of people have wondered, what is the significance about this moment? there have been many times where we thought there was a chance for change. we looked at the 2008 elections, the excitement around that,

specifically when the vote tabulations show that the opposion had won the election. so what is it about this specific time in zimbabwe's history that has given this flag so much traction? a couple ofctive, things that have taken place. first and foremost, the growth of the demographic of millennials is something that i think zimbabwe did not really watch out for. these are a group of people that have such a passion for zimbabwe that maybe we haven't seen in a long time. maybe not since the war of liberation. these people, number one, they feel it. second, they connect very easily. so, couple that with an opportunity to express your discontent, and you get

something that is explosive. , theifferences in that citizens, regular people like myself, have finally decided that i have nothing to lose because i have lost everything as it is. i'm about to lose more. remember one of the flashpoints over the last couple of months as we have been processing the bond notes, which a currency that the government wants to introduce in zimbabwe that they say will be one to one with the u.s. dollar, but it is backed by nothing. for the regular citizen, they are thinking, how stupid do you think we are? lee's forgive me if i'm not politically correct. i do not move in circles for you have to be careful about certain things. [laughter] very much.

something might happen that you are not too comfortable with, but we just got to the point where everyone said wait a minute, how stupid do you think we are that you want to introduce a note that has no is gointo take everything that i have saved, and this is the second time you have done it. you just want me to be quiet? when people have spoken sometimes to us as citizens to say you are too emotional, you need to calm down, you need to put your complaints in a more formal manner, we said, no. the time for formalities over. it is ok for our emotions to come out, because that is all we have left to show. they have taken the shirts off of our backs, for goodness sake. what is different now is that there is a passionate group of people who understand the issues , who are also refusing to be hoodwinked by the government.

who are refusing to be sidetracked in terms of what the real issues are. as you can see, no matter we speak to the issues of corruption and injustice. for me, that is the differentiating factor. a group of young people that have said we are done with it. we're not afraid anymore. means we are fed up and we are not afraid anymore. we're not afraid to tell you the who you are.er we have a constitution that allows us to speak the truth to you. really made the difference. let me finish by saying less. is the the difference men and women that secured freedom for us, they have also felt for a long time that enough is enough.

they didn't know which way to say it, how to say it. our generation provided that .oice and they backed us up i'm excited about the convergence of generations. acrosss a concern since political divides, racial divides, tribal divides, that this is not going to happen anymore. we are done. we have an unprecedented level of unity in zimbabwe. that is exciting. chloe: thank you for sharing that. could you outline for us how the movement went from one video thatou posted on social media to the streets? transition like? i know a lot of people dismissed it as a social media fad. not thinking it would have a lot of impact. can you explain how that process took place? pastor mawarire: honestly, this is the first time i'm admitting this, much to the excitement in

zimbabwe, it did start as a fad. that is what it was. it was, let's do something on social media that is going to be fun. he ridiculed it. he laughed at us. he called us names. at that point, it started to change. this is the thing with zimbabweans that we are aware of. when we raise certain points, complain, or try to hold them to account, they treat us as if we do not think. like, you are western founded and western funded. i said to myself, what is so western funded and founded about the fact that i cannot send my kids to school? about the fact that pensioners who built the country can only of their ownmonth money? what if so western funded about

the fact that they looted the funds of people? you think it is ok. we had other encounters with other government ministers who ridiculed us. some even accosted me. i went to a radio station for an interview. every point that the government attacked the citizens that were showing their love for their country, it grew more. people realize, wait, we cannot be treated like this anymore. it started with the one video. then i started it think, if you love zimbabwe and you have a flag, posted on social media. that began to grow. we said, if you want to hold the government to account, take your flag with you wherever you go. crystallize off of social media onto the ground. people were old enough to take their flags to work, to the shop, take their kids to school.

at that point, we realize some is happening. i cannot tell which point it stopped being a social media campaign and became a movement, but i know that at one point we told the reserve bank, we wrote the letter and said, sir, if you are so sure that the bond notes will work, we challenge you to a citizen's debate to explain yourself. it was a joke when we wrote the letter. he responded and said "let's do it." we had the frank asked discussion that has ever taken place with a public official in zimbabwe. young people told him to his face that they did not trust him or the government. one young man said to him, there -- thecture just behind governor, in the room with the debate. he said with all due respect, you look like a nice guy, but we do not trust the fact that the

man in the picture behind you, if he told you to print the money you would say no. [applause] these are young people beginning to realize. there's nothing western funded about that. mark my words. ,hat is happening right now right now, i will not be surprised if it shows up. you do see him sitting with these funders? way.e funders, by the these things cost it to grow. people began to think more on the issues. think more about the fact that, wait a minute, even if there is an agenda, the fact is that there are questions that need to be answered. the president called me a fake pastor. i remember my response. i said, granted that i may be a

fake pastor. that i may actually be a charlatan, but there is fake about the fact that we have a cash crisis that no one can explain in our country. there is nothing fake about the fact that the president said went missing from the coffers. even though our government can go in to a crowd of protesters, arrest people, charged him with cyber terrorism for using their phones, our government has failed to bring one person to account for admitting $15 billion. you do how much money that is? $15 billion. you can arrest a guy with a church of 50 -- no, 48 people. you can arrest that guy in charge him, but you cannot find a person amongst your own lieutenants that is responsible for that money? we began to see we have a case with the issues. let's press the buttons of the

issues. pastor mawarire: how did that feed into the protests? pastor mawarire: the shutdown zimbabwe event on july 6, 20 16, it was something that will be etched in our memory for a long time. that is the day that we began to grab back our power. that is the day that we showed, wait, we are the ones in control . what happens, what happened, is a lot of people -- a lot of people credit he with that shutdown. it had nothing to do with me on my own. i was a contributing factor. spontaneous convergence of many issues. i remember what happened was that the government had gone ahead and introduced a ban on the importation of basic commodities. we had people that had made businesses out of importing basic commodities.

that was basically because we didn't have any access to jobs. they promised 2.2 million jobs, we have lost more. lost more jobs since possibly independents. people created their own jobs by importing basic commodities. the government introduced this law, people couldn't understand it. apparently you're protecting local industries that don't exist. the friday before the shutdown, there was a protest. traderswhere all of the , all the people that lived off of that industry, they had a protest that went wild. that kind of fueled on the mandate the public transportation system. also, they went ahead and were complaining about the police mishandling. how the police seem to be taking

money illegally and accusing things, and then take money of them. we called for the shutdown on monday, but the civil servants on tuesday from work and wednesday. it was a perfect storm kind of moment. what was amazing was this was a zimbabwean every realize. it is my hope going for that every year, without the permissions in zimbabwe, it will be a day that the citizens stay at how just remind them who is in charge and who is in control. [applause] chloe: you talked about why people are so passionate about the flag, how it rings people

together. together.people you have often spoken about your commitment to nonviolence, constantly reiterating that on social media and media interviews. why is it so important to the movement? why did you choose to make it a main element? pastor mawarire: i come from 2 departure points concerning the issue of nonviolence. -- thest one eating that first one being that our government understands violence. this is a tool they have used for years. they have perfected the art of being violent. we have seen over the years that anyone who has stood up against them, they have been violent. important to us to understand that we cannot go as we protest against the government, we cannot go into it trying to do with they do best. it became obvious we would end up instilling more fear, or more people would get hurt doing

that. we would destroy what we were trying to do. we can't do that. that is what they do best. they love that opportunity. of earlier on this morning in zimbabwe, unarmed citizens that were not fighting were beaten. including senior citizens. the second departure point for me is more principle-waist. my faith teaches me that violence begets violence. matter is thate whatever results we achieve in some bob boyd, the use of violence is going to have to be whatever results we achieve in zimbabwe, the use of violence will have to be maintained by violence. that will have a culture of violence, which we don't want going forward. anad a chance to sit for hour in atlanta. it was an outstanding meeting. i said, tell me about the civil

rights movement, how you use nonviolence. he said to me, there is more power in a silent protest than a noisy one. i found that profound. government has shown they don't know what to do with people that aren't violent. they didn't know what to do with us when we stayed at home and said we are running go to work today -- we aren't going to work today. they went door-to-door to knock people out of their homes and go tothem, why didn't you work today? how ridiculous is that? we had a protest that we did. i was in south africa at the time. our lovely cricket team, the zimbabwe cricket team coming to begin the idea of protesting when they mourned the death of democracy by putting on black armbands at the cricket game. we remember they did that. when new zealand played zimbabwe , i made a video and said take

your flags and go to the game. showing that we are done with 36 years of repression and being silenced. your flag and sing the national anthem. i wasn't even in the country. thousands of zimbabweans did it. how do you arrest people singing the national anthem holding their flag? see.s beautiful to we didn't hit anybody, we didn't insult anybody, we just made a point. another campaign was started by a group of students. what they did was they took the graduation gowns. their graduation caps. they went onto the street. they were selling sweets and chocolates like vendors. they were playing football in the city square, putting on the gallows to show that we are unemployed. hashow that the government caused the very gallons of knowledge to be a sign of wasted talent.

and the pictures went around the world. they spoke a thousand words. the same students put on their gowns at the cricket match. much to our surprise, the police arrested them for putting on graduation gowns at a cricket match. for me, these are the means in which a government can and must he embarrassed. [applause] following the shutdown, there was a clampdown on the movement. that led to your rest. bityou tell us a little about the circumstances surrounding your rest, and the story by which you were released. chloe: well -- pastor mawarire: well, it is still something that every time i think about it i am surprised at what happened. we went in when the police had a call they wanted to question me.

went involuntarily. when we arrived, after about one or two hours of interrogation, they said we are going to charge you with inciting public violence. that came as a shock. first and foremost, i have never been arrested. i've never been charged for anything. the second thing that shocked me about the charge was that i did not incite any violence at all. in all of the videos that i made, at 1.i said to zimbabweans carry your flag for 25 days. willmmitment is that i make a video for every one of those days. a three minute video encouraging you to why you should care your flak with you. -- flag with you. in each of those videos, literally as a matter of principle, i would say do not be violent. do not incite or insult anyone. do not insult the president,

anyone. just carry your flag. even during the shutdown, i said stay at home, don't fight, just stay at home and do nothing. to be charged with that was a surprise. the expectation was that i would be out in 28 hours, which is the law. -- out in 48 hours, which is the law. i expected that they would release me on bail. before the day was over, they handcuffed me, took me, and said we are searching your house. sticklooking for a baton and a police helmet. what would i be doing with the police helmet? said, no, we believe you stole these things. what they wanted to do was search my house and get my phone.

put handcuffs on me, which was a surreal moment. that is when it clicked. i am actually arrested here. we went to my house, my wife came out, and i said these make sure my girls on here. i 5-year-old and 3-year-old. i don't want them to see me like this. we went through that, they found nothing. then of course, they locked me up. the next morning, i was supposed to appear before the magistrate. we delayed going because they said there was a handful of people let the courts with their flags on. they were concerned there could be violence. we delayed and eventually got there. there is huge crowd. i distinctly remember in one of the cells at the magistrates court, it is naturally a filthy place. rampantly or randomly. with otherthere

prisoners. i wanted to say, i met young men in the cell that told me genuine stories. each of them knew who i was. they said, they went around and began to explain what they were in for. one man stole a two liter bottle of juice. one man had smoked weed of some sort. another young guy said he had stolen a supermarket trolley because he wanted to use it to help people carry their groceries from the supermarket to the public transport and charge money for it. they were arrested for this. there were 22 of these young guys. well said, you don't look like the guy that should be in here. they putke you, when on glasses like you, it is usually fraud. i said, how much money did you take? anyway, we spoke through it.

they said, i'm just a citizen who is standing up for my family. standing up for our nation. one guy looked at me and said, pastor, we want you to know that we don't do what wdoecause we want to. we are not proud of the fact that we steal from people, that we do these things. we have nothing else to do in terms of looking after our family. he finished by saying, for me getting arrested is a blot on my character. for you, getting arrested is a badge on your shoulder. it broke my heart. he said to me words that i only have ever read in the bible. it was the most amazing sentence. he said, remember me when you get out. incarcerated, i got a chance to see people that don't have thousands stand for

them like thousands stood for me. case was eventually brought before the magistrate late in the day. i was supposed to appear by 9:00 a.m. i appeared at 6:00 p.m. in front of the magistrate. my lawyer said to me, i have bad news for you. for me, bad news met that i was going to spend another night. i said, are they going to throw me back in? he said no, the charge is changed. they are not charging you with subverting the constitution of an elected government. i said, in english, what does that mean? years behind bars. it is almost as good as treason. my heart exploded. i saw my wife and the crowd. i thought, what if i done --

what have i done? how is that unfolded? it was such a moment of power for the citizens of zimbabwe. as the magistrate began, he would take recs. every time, i would ask to leave the courthouse. 100 lawyersi had that came to represent me. i only knew of one. there were hundreds. i thought, what is going on? when the magistrate said, who is representing this man? theirll produced certificates. i was so amazed that all these young men came to make a statement. they would stand here, i would go for break, the second brake which was longer than the others, the courthouse broke into song. an unprecedented move. to of the prison guards came tell me and said, do you realize you have caused people to sing in the courthouse. the magistrate could shut this

whole thing down and adjourn this and cause you to be trialed on another day. that means you will be shut up for a couple more days. i thought to myself, i wish they would stop singing, but it got louder. they sang worship songs. at 1.i was sitting on the concrete floor in the waiting so. i thought, why. why, why, why. immediately, they saying a song that most zimbabweans know. zimbabwe shall be saved, and zimbabwe shall be saved. the holy spirit must come down, and zimbabwe shall be saved. cried evennt, i louder because i knew what was

going on. i knew that those people were determined. that they found an opportunity. they would take that opportunity to ignore the government to the max. they sang and did all sorts of thing. when the magistrate came back, and we don't know where he was for an hour and a half, but he came back. he was left with no choice but to release me. upon leaving the courthouse, one of the prison guards whispered in my ear and said you have to take a different route out of here, because you will be rearrested the moment you walk out. as we walked out of the jail, which is just like in a basement , the young man walked behind me and said, take the first right. don't go to the straight gates. as you were told to check out. he said, you make a right turn

instead. there are people waiting. he was or whatho he was talking about, but i got to the gate and to the right i saw 4 lawyers that had been inside. i've never run so fast toward a lawyer like i did on that day. it was people i didn't know, but they felt like friends. the comrades. of course, we left. crowdsck of seeing the of people outside, the shock of understanding what had taken place. people had been waiting for hours. they made sandwiches for each other. they bought candles for each other. people spent the day praying and singing, encouraging each other. it was outstanding, outstanding. the highlight of that day for me was the fact that the citizens of zimbabwe showed up to be able to reclaim their country.

when something turned and something really special began to happen. chloe: that is wonderful. thank you for sharing the intimate details of that time. know that you said this is a great movement that has the capacity to bring real change. have seen manywe times like this before, where there has been hope that has been dashed. how do you respond to that criticism? what capacity do you think the movement has to bring real change in zimbabwe? the one thinge: people have to understand about this movement, and many movements -- please understand that there are many other expressions of the citizens movement in zimbabwe. the one thing that the citizens know is that we are not waiting for a victory. we are not waiting for a change. we already have it.

we have created space for citizen that was not previously there. cause ourabled to government to so panic that they have created and crafter laws to try to catch one or two people, to try to extradite someone for posting something on facebook. so, we know that we already have a victory. and we started out, the idea was that we wanted to make sure that as many zimbabweans that have been not raising their voice, our present. that we have unity. those two things were our initial objectives. the unity of zimbabwe, we achieved that. the raising of voices by citizens, we achieved that. i want to say that we have achieved that victory. todaywere to crash completely, if this dies down

today, something happened in zimbabwe, that people have seen that they cannot unseat. the government now knows,the goe now know that they now know. [laughter] pastor mawarire: and i think for me, that is the special thing that has taken place. so going forward, everything we are now striving for is a result of these victories that we have already gotten, and depending on what happens between now and the elections in 2018, everything that happens between now and 2018 is changed. the fact that citizens are prepared now to have the protest almost every day of the week is an amazing feat, and this is where we are going. we said to the citizens that if it means that we keep our government busy with a different process in a different place every single day, obs. soviet.

so the change is already happening, citizens are now the game changing factor in zimbabwe. and the ruling party opposition know that. we are ready to vote, but we are also ready to detect our vote. about gameing changes, we know the teachers organization have begun a 10-day march. they have also been encouraged toother groups on the ground occupy africa unity square. what role do you think those groups will play in taking the movement forward. ? pastor mawarire: these groups are playing amazing roles. i take my hat off. the teachers in zimbabwe are uncelebrated in our nation. [applause] pastor mawarire: i say so

because every zimbabwean who has left zimbabwe to come and be in places like washington, d.c., to be anywhere in the world, came through the hands of a teacher ,ho is overworked and underpaid and especially the rural teachers. because a part of my education actually happened in a rural area where i --t to school where teachers it was deplorable, but they produced stars, they produced people who are running global corporations today. sayor them to be able to listen, let's begin to stand out, let's begin to make our voice heard is a huge move. one question a lot of people have been asking as -- what can we do to make sure that people in the rural areas are aware that the fact that citizens are beginning to rise? those teachers are a part of the

infrastructure. when the students see them, and they say why are you going to do this, they will tell them, "we are doing this because we have not been paid. we are doing it because certain things are not right in our country." so that indicates that the message has penetrated the rural areas, even though some of the , thesenda may be protests are only being done in urban areas, the government knows. they know it. rurale people in the areas understand. these are so important because they are helping to permeate every aspect of the zimbabwean culture, and reachable areas or peoples groups that were apathetic. everyone is trying to find a way to get involved through something that speaks to them, and that is what is important about the rural teachers and anyone else that is starting a movement. we have to have more and more movements come out. we have to have as many

movements in zimbabwe as our issues on the ground. i am waiting for a movement to that says no more foreign trips for the president. go on about do is that because it is immoral for our leader to travel and spend money going for a checkup but not money to build a small clinic and stock up that clinic with medicine for a whole month. so for me, those are the issues. we continuto say to the citizens, "speak to the issue, find a way to express your displeasure at the issue, start a campaign, there will be people standing with you." it is important that everyone gets a chance to put their hands on deck. chloe: in closing before we move to questions on the floor, when you mentioned you would be coming to the u.s. for this trip , i know there were a lot of zimbabwe,onses in

some worrying that the movement would not be able to continue without you. all sorts of different things people had to say. what is your response to that ? do you think the movement can be successful in your absence? --tor mawarire: the movement we are not talking about if it will continue in my absence. it is continuing in my absence, and it must continue in my absence. in fact, the movement must stop depending on me because this is something that is owned by everyone, by every zimbabwean. la see, the day that they ughed is the day that people began to buy shares. it is a movement. that is the day we began to say, "this is mine. i am going to be a part of this." so it is definitely carrying on, even without me being physically on the ground.

remember, we have this online as well. so our generation understands that. distance and geolocation are not things that concern us because our reality is not about the fact that the person who started it is here. we can still communicate, we can exchange ideas, we can make things happen. so for me, the excitement is that there are people who are mven more passionate than i a that have taken up the cause. i'm happy that many of those people are going to even greater terms ofan me in expressing their displeasure at what the government has done or expressing their feeling about how they want to see zimbabwe build going forward. so it is bigger than myself. it is bigger than me. i think already we are looking in september, there is a group of zimbabweans that are going to be hosting -- and i am part of those zimbabwean now -- in the united nations general assembly,

we are going to have the biggest protest that has ever happened outside some bob way here. outside zimbabwe here. dies, hee robert moog of needs to know that citizens everywhere stood up. [applause] thank you so much. we really appreciate you taking part in this conversation. now we will make it a broader conversation and open it up to questions. a couple of things before we get started. there are a lot of people here who are very limited time. , i ask you that you make your question very specific and very short. these do not use

opportunity to make a statement put as a question. if you go over time, i will have to cut you off and move on. let's keep it short and to the point so we can get as many questions in as possible. so we have the two mics. we will take questions three at a time and then give evan a moment to respond. let's start with the gentleman here, and then we will take a third question from the lady with the glasses on her head. if you could just identify yourself and your affiliation. i was aug royce, teacher at camp zumba high school years ago. [applause] doug: it is very inspiring. thetalk a little bit about guard helping you out in the court. what support have you received from within the security services?

and itheir country, too, seems like it might be important for them to support this instead of opposing it. >> thank you. hello, evan, a very good friend of mine. pastor mawarire: it is good to see you. >> it is good to see you, too. i know evan. we went to the same church, but we have also worked together in zimbabwe. , it is a movement nonprofit for girls and young women. thatncern, evan, has been -- i am concerned about the -- basically we have been working on the same issues for a long time. we have been working with the citizens and entered a new era .

it is reaching to the people, especially in the church. women are empowered because the issues have been happening -- chloe: let's move to the question. >> what is it that you are doing to make sure that you are citizens?gether with a lot of money has gone also in terms of playin creating the spr government accountability. and what is it that citizens can do to reach you? i have tried to reach out, and probably you are overwhelmed. so my question is the issue of working together and what is happening on the ground, but also, well done on the work that you are doing. had been nothurch taking part as much as possible. thank you. chloe: one final question. the lady here with the glasses on her head and the white top.

we will take another round after this. this is just the first round of three. alex: thank you. my name is alex thomas, i work at the refugees international. it is an honor to be here today appeared i just came back from zimbabwe in june where we are looking at the impact of the drought. i'm wondering if you think the two years of drought in zimbabwe have contributed in any way to what is happening now. chloe: thank you. so just to sum those up for you, what is the support you have seen from the security sector, what are you going to society andvil increase citizen engagement, and what is the impact of the drought, and has that facilitated the events that have happened? pastor mawarire: ok, so, i'm going to answer as best as i say,and, you know, i will

to chloe, you know, i am not a politician, and i am not an accomplished activist. for me, words like "democratization" are new words. i'm used to "salvation." [laughter] pastor mawarire: so i will answer as best as i can, and if i get it wrong, feel free to start a hashtag about that as well. [laughter] pastor mawarire: talking about the security sector, thank you for that question because being in my position has allowed me to see some of the people that work in the security sector face-to-face, to hear some of their thoughts about what is going on in our country. i think with citizens will find surprising is that these people are hurting as well. one of the things that i found was a gentleman who would inform me of certain things that were

about to happen. for example, one of them told us that if i went and spent the night at home the day that i was leaving the court, i would either be arrested or abducted on that very night. so you basically just got the message straight to us through our partners, and these were partners that i did not know that had mobilized and came through the courthouse. and one of them came to the people that were close to me and said listen, i have this information that if you go home tonight, you will be arrested or you will be abductive, and that was a sign for me that there are people that are wanting to help support because the reality of the situation is that the cash crisis in zimbabwe is not selective. if i cannot get money from the bank, then you also cannot get money from the bank. if my sister goes, same thing. , theireople understand

children, their wives also have to go to the same hospital as our wives go, and if you go to a hospital and there is no water, at it only cost $800 for hole, and it costs $48,000 to build a swimming pool at your house, which every minister has come and none of them can swim anyway -- [laughter] pastor mawarire: and these people see it. paint ai am trying to picture for you. these guys in the security services see it. they drive these people inexpensive cars. they go and guard their homes, and then he has to go back to a shack. they have to guard this man or this woman as they eat an expensive meal, a meal that is more than his salary. he has to watch them do that. he can see it happening. but the one thing again that maybe our citizenry does not understand about our security

forces is that the fear that governs them is probably greater than the one that held us back. these people are ruled by fear. these people are brought in line by fear. it is a scary thing for someone who is in the police, intelligence, or the army to speak up. one of the things that we continue to openly encourage our brothers and sisters who are in the security sector is to help us. help us with information. do what you can. leak information to us. inform us. let us know what is going on. let us know what is about to happen. because we do not have a central committee, because we do not we do bureau, you know, not have meetings where we gather to discuss strategy in secret. our strategy is discussed right in the open tier and we discuss our strategy on social media. we discuss our strategy on

whatsapp. mind, they think it is a secret movement, a gathering somewhere, but we do it right there, so they know what we are about to do when we are about to do it, and the cool thing is everything we are about to do, they are powerless to stop it. it is going to happen. it is that simple. we are not trying to do anything that is illegal. , andese people are there there is some form of reaching out to them. it is very simple. they watch our videos. when they want to videos for intelligence, we would hope that at some point, something has to a minute, this man or this woman talking about what i'm going through, about what i am facing, so that reaching out is starting to happen. them starting to see to feedback information to us and let us know what is going on inside. -- i knowhe question

that you have worked very hard in zimbabwe over the years and continue to do. i envy you for being able to go back home when you want so that you can continue the work. civic society in zimbabwe is something citizens have been unaware of for a very long time. i want to say this from an honest perspective. zimbabweans,f many way,ll of us -- and by the we do not call a civic society. that is a name we now know. in zimbabwe, we saw you as ngo's. no matter what we do, we just call it ingo. that is all we know. many of us in our minds, our interpretation of ngo's or cso's is that you are there to bring

relief. food in the rural areas, things like that. but we did not have an understanding of the work that , for example, support citizens movement or the work that you do. of us were, many fighting for zimbabwean human rights when we got arrested. we did not know about the different groups that are there. has now created an opportunity where civic society can then say to the citizens, "guess what? what you guys are doing out of passion, we do as a profession. we have strategy" -- >> we are moved by passion. pastor mawarire: you are moved by passion. i hope you will allow me to be honest. part of the feeling has been that sometimes, civic society does it because it is a job, it is 8:00 to 5:00, in terms of

speeding out. speaking out. this is an opportunity where civic society can say hey, by the way, these things we have been studying, we have studies that can help in this area or that area. this is a great time for that marriage to take place, for citizenry, the citizens society has been trying so hard to reach and educate. this is a great time now for that to happen. so, for example, we are not funded as a citizen's movement. i think it is a great idea for us not to be funded because it on thes to keep our eyes issues. we remain about the issues. it will be great to now get together with organizations that teach things like voter education, like the knowledge or understanding of the constitution or how the law works. the first taught for time, when you good arrested, what do you do?

how do you behave? it was amazing to get a book that i could read real quick. fors a great opportunity citizens to take advantage of the work that civic society has already done, but also a great advantage for civic society to look at the citizens and say, what have these people done that we have not done over the last take thatyears, and and be able to use it in may training or things like that. that is my kind of take on it. -- the i have one more question about the impact of the drought. i think definitely the drought has had an effect in zimbabwe, but what has had a bigger and more profound effect during this time are the contribution of the drought as a flat point for citizens is government's unpreparedness for a drought. we have learned that you can be

better prepared for it. our government has had money given to it, but they have failed to be ready for times like these. they failed to be ready. more where the flashpoint is. that is more where our dissatisfaction is. not been ready when he drought has come through. so i think again that is where the passion is. chloe: great. thank you so much. we will take another round or when you are called on, the microphone will come to you. we will start with the gentleman in the blue shirt and then moved to the very back, the gentleman there in the suit, and behind the camera man is a lady with a turtleneck. once you have the microphone, please go ahead and introduce yourself. todd: great, thank you, i am

todd maas with the center for global development. while we are talking about teachers, i think about my teacher at ranch house college. i am thankful for her. you called for citizens to stand up on specific issues. you mentioned foreavelign tr is a verye bond notes important campaign to try to deny the government from stealing from zimbabwe's future, in washington, d.c., just a few blocks away is the international monetary fund and the global bank. to what extent are the zimbabwe citizens aware that there is a campaign largely pushed by certain european shareholders to arrears at thes imf world bank and african development world bank, to enable new lending to government, and less than a month ago, there was a report by

the development they to its shareholders, which declared there were no longer any human rights problems in zimbabwe. is this an issue arrears clearance is very wonky, not a street issue, but if that happens, floodgates will be open for hundreds of millions of dollars of new lending for the government or it is that something that the zimbabwe citizenry is motivated on? chloe: out next question is on the very back there, the gentleman in the suit. i want to say welcome, pastor , to the land of the free and the home of the brave. my question is -- when everything is said and done, the problem, we all know, is that there is a need for a change of government. government remains in

place, nothing will change in my opinion. therefore, my question is -- we already less than 24 months into the next election, and we know they will start campaigning and start scheming out to reach the next election. what are we doing now that we are united as zimbabweans to come up with a plan to make sure that the next elections in them but we are free and fair and that they are credible? free and fair are and that they are credible? i drove last night. i'm from philadelphia. i just came for this. pastor mawarire: oh, wow. [applause] when i see you, i do not see a politician -- i see zimbabwe.

what are you going to do? are you going to try to reach out? reach out to al sharpton, jesse jackson to help you on those issues? thank you. [applause] feel free to tackle those questions in any order you would like, and if you would like any more clarity -- it is unreal to note that we are across from the imf. these are institutions that exist in some way, in some world, somewhere. i may go there and have a word with somebody. [laughter] pastor mawarire: i think the -- it is a shame that anybody would are no records of

human rights violations in zimbabwe. the whole world can see it is a lie. [applause] pastor mawarire: the entire world can see it is a lie. we do not even have to go far. i can show you images on my phone from this morning, from today, from this morning where people have been beaten up by a police force. for us, the citizens, to be pawns on aif we are chessboard is something we have decided listen, we are done with this. something i said when i started off, i said i know that zimbabwe is reported upon here through research and reports and statistics, but it is time for zimbabwe to be reported upon by by the real stories of people being tortured, being was abducted,one and nobody knows where he is,

for holding of a placard in a public space -- which is his constitutional rights. people have been beaten -- i'm sure you have seen the video that went around a couple of months ago of women that were placed under arrest because they were accused of demonstration, and while they were sitting defenseless, they were being beaten by police. one police officer actually took the baby from this woman so that she could be more comfortable as she got beaten. and a bank goes ahead to release a report that says we are free of human rights violations? know, africa needs to have a conversation with itself that is critical. and for me, this is where the critical conversation must happen in africa. those liberated from our continent have to now get to a place where they can look each "whatin the eye and say, you are doing to your people is not right."

until they do that, the leaders in our continent are letting our generation down. when i went into south africa, the secretary general was asked what he thought of this young man that had crossed into south africa, and he said that he is a dissident. i thought to myself, you know, this is a violation of a concept in africa that i know many people know. "i am because of you, we are because of each other." many of the cultures in zimbabwe and africa is that my father's brother is my father. when i have a problem with my father, i go to my father's brother, and i tell him what has happened, and he mediates on my behalf. he goes to my dad and said to him, "your son is at my house, he is crying about what is going on. you cannot do that to your boy.

in fact, you know what, i will keep him at my house until you come down and you give me a guarantee that he will be safe." but these guys who are liberators do not do that. they do not hold each other to account. and what happens is when reports are done, whatever the motivation is to tell a lie, they must be people that appear as liberators in africa, but they have to say this is not right or we cannot condone this anymore. we cannot stand aside and watch. i think for us, it will be trouble, and for the imf and the world banks to accept that kind of report as truth for us reinforces ther fact that we are truly on our own, and it further puts a dent not only into our hopes for a

better zimbabwe but into the hopes of every other nation around the world. so our hope is that they may start to really see the story for what it is on the ground and treat this government the way it needs to be treated. come to us and they say to us you are wanted for questioning, and they are the first ones to, and ask for money. as an ordinary citizen, it confuses me. it confuses me. questionanswered this correctly, but my point is the imf and the world bank should no longer turn a blind eye. credibility, and they lose our support as zimbabwe citizens. this government can no longer have people hide. it is not the age for people to allow more and more life to be lost. we are longing for people that have got a different view, that can stand up and say, "this is unjust, it is not right, it won't be