day. so today, i really come to join my fellow citizens to tell that story of zimbabwe, to tell how we are turning it around, and to invite anyone who wants to help us to come and do so on the condition that you are helping the citizen. that you hear our story, and you understand where we come from. but if the world was never to help us, if there was never going to be anyone that would come to our rescue, we want the world to know that we have discovered that we are the heroes that we have been waiting for. i will and my opening remarks this morning by letting you know that i am not a man of ast educational assumptions,

but i do know when i am hungry. know when i can see that my future is being destroyed. this one statement encapsulates how we stand and how we carry on today, and at sibley says this. it says, if we cannot cause the politicians to change, then we must inspire the citizens to evolt -- to be bold. that is our rallying cry. all we have is each other. we are discovering that our power is in our numbers. we are discovering that the tenacity we have to ride through tough economic times must now be used to face our own government who will not listen to us. all we have said is they must be held accountable. they have threatened us, they have arrested us. they have beaten us, as early

as a couple of hours ago, my countrymen in zimbabwe, today demonstrating against the cash crisis and the bond notes that want to be introduced. citizens were beaten. we want everyone to know that they will be us some more, they will jail us more, but we will only get stronger. the generation is now on their hands and we have had enough. we have drawn a line in the sand that says we will hold you accountable. if we voted for you, we will ask the tough questions. so even as we discuss this this morning, you do so with the thought that my brothers and sisters on the ground in zimbabwe face a very harsh reality. my very presence in the united states is courtesy of of citizen number one in zimbabwe, who himself said people like mawarire have no place in zimbabwe and must leave. but that is my home. absolutely nobody, including

the president of the republic of zimbabwe, can ban or any other citizen from my home, for standing up what i believe. i close my remark for staying what i said in response to the president the first time he asked me to leave. i said, there are many things you can do, mr. president, but there are two things that you are powerless in this season to do. you cannot stop the sun from setting, and you cannot stop mine from rising. thank you.

peter: thank you very much, pastor evan, for those remarks. very inspirational remarks. it left us with a great deal to ponder. we will carry those sentiments out with us and apply them, not only in the case of zimbabwe, which we know is close to your heart, but many other nations in africa. your comment about if we cannot convince the politicians, then we have to inspire the citizens to be bold. i think that applies in many places, so thank you for bringing that voice. now to moderate and made his conversation -- by the way, i neglected one of my obligations earlier as acting chair to inform you, if you are tweeting out or engaging in social media or cyber terrorism about this event, the has tag is

aczim. very delighted to facilitate this conversation. the newest member of the team here at the atlantic council's africa center, a person who worked hard over the last few weeks to pull this event together, along with the other members of the team. chloe mcgrath is a south african fulbright grantee who recently joined as a visiting fellow, to develop our southern africa work and to reinforce it. we decided we needed to build up, because of what was going on in zimbabwe but also in other countries in southern africa, we needed to reinforce our work in that part of the continent. chloe grew up in malawi, worked in south africa, tanzania, kenya, and zimbabwe in a variety of research and consulting positions.

she has followed the events closely the events unfolding in zimbabwe, and recently, for those of us that are washington insiders, wrote a very powerful nd good piece in foreign policy explaining the significance of the #thisflag movement. when she was previously here with us during her graduate studies as an intern, already as an intern, she showed extraordinary product -- promise. she wrote the case study on external support for nonviolent civil resistance movements in zimbabwe for the atlantic council's strategic force site future of authoritarianism project. so we are delighted to have her back. delighted to turn the floor over to chloe to moderate this discussion with pastor van.

chloe: thank you, everyone, for being with us today. it's a great privilege at the atlantic council to host evan mawarire. thank you for sharing your heart with us. that is something that resonates with all of us massively. i want to start by asking, it seems that you became an activist is some ice in mistake, if you don't mind me putting it that way. i know a lot of people have wondered, what is the significance about this moment? there have been many times where we thought there was a chance for change. we looked at the 2008 elections, the excitement around that, specifically when the vote tabulations show that the opposition had won the election. so what is it about this specific time in zimbabwe's history that has given this flag so much traction? evan: from my perspective, a

couple of things have taken place. a group of people have such a passion for zimbabwe that maybe we haven't seen this passion since the war of liberation. these people number one are realists. secondly, they connect very easily. so couple that with an opportunity to express your discontent and you get something that is explosive. the differences in that, the citizens, regular people like myself, have finally decided that i have nothing to lose

because i have lost everything as it is. i'm about to lose more. i remember one of the flashpoints over the last couple of months as we have been processing the bond notes, which a currency that the government wants to introduce in zimbabwe that they say will be one-to-one with the u.s. dollar, but it is backed by nothing. for the regular citizen, they are thinking, how stupid do you think we are? let's forgive me if i'm not politically correct. i do not move in circles for you have to be careful about ertain things. thanks very much. something might happen that you are not too comfortable with, but we just got to the point where everyone said wait a minute, how stupid do you think we are that you want to introduce a note that has no

value, and it is going to take everything that i have saved, and this is the second time you have done it. you just want me to be quiet? even when people have spoken sometimes to us as citizens to say you are too emotional, you need to calm down, you need to put your complaints in a more formal manner, we said, no. the time for formalities over. it is ok for our emotions to come out, because that is all we have left to show. they have taken the shirts off of our backs, for goodness sake. what is different now is that there is a passionate group of people who understand the issues, who are also refusing to be hoodwinked by the government. who are refusing to be sidetracked in terms of what the real issues are. as you can see, no matter we speak to the issues of corruption and injustice.

for me, that is the differentiating factor. a group of young people that have said we are done with it. we're not afraid anymore. our mantra means we are fed up and we are not afraid anymore. we're not afraid to tell you the truth no matter who you are. we have a constitution that allows us to speak the truth to you. that has really made the difference. let me finish by saying this. part of the difference is the men and women that secured freedom for us, they have also felt for a long time that enough is enough. they didn't know which way to say it, how to say it. our generation provided that voice and they backed us up. i'm excited about the convergence of generations.

there is a concern since across political divides, racial divides, tribal divides that this is not going to happen anymore. we are done. we have an unprecedented level of unity in zimbabwe. that is exciting. chloe: thank you for sharing that. could you outline for us how the movement went from one video that you posted on social media to the streets? what was the transition like? i know a lot of people dismissed it as a social media fad, not thinking it would have a lot of impact. can you explain how that process took place? pastor mawarire: honestly, this is the first time i'm admitting his, much to the excitement in zimbabwe, it did start as a fad. that is what it was. it was, let's do something on social media that is going to be fun.

he ridiculed it. he laughed at us. he called us names. at that point, it started to change. this is the thing when zimbabweans became aware of. when we raise certain points, complain, or try to hold them to account, they treat us as if we do not think. they say things like, you are western founded and western funded. i said to myself, what is so western funded and founded about the fact that i cannot send my kids to school? about the fact that pensioners who built the country can only access $20 a month of their own money? what if so western funded about the fact that they looted the funds of people? you think it is ok? we had other encounters with other government ministers who

ridiculed us. some even accosted me. i went to a radio station for an interview. every point that the government attacked the citizens that were showing their love for their country, it grew more. people realized, wait, we cannot be treated like this anymore. it started with the one video. then i started it think, if you love zimbabwe and you have a flag, post on social media. that began to grow. we said if you want to hold the government to account, take your flag with you wherever you go. we started to crystallize off of social media onto the ground. people were bold enough to take their flags to work, to the shop, take their kids to school. at that point, we realized something is happening. i cannot tell which point it stopped being a social media campaign and became a movement, but i know that at one point we

told the reserve bank, we wrote the letter and said, sir, if you are so sure that the bond notes will work, we challenge you to a citizen's debate to explain yourself. it was a joke when we wrote the letter. he responded and said "let's do it." we had the frankest discussion that has ever taken place with a public official in zimbabwe. young people told him to his face that they did not trust him or the government. one young man said to him, there is a picture just behind -- the governor, in the room with the debate. he said with all due respect, you look like a nice guy, but we do not trust the fact that the man in the picture behind you, if he told you to print the money, you wouldnt say o. these are young people beginning to realize.

there's nothing western funded about that. mark my words. what is happening right now, right now, i will not be surprised if it shows up. you do see him sitting with these funders? love funders, by the way. these things caused it to grow. people began to think more on the issues. think more about the fact that, wait a minute, even if there is an agenda, the fact is that there are questions that need to be answered. the president called me a fake pastor. i remember my response. i said, granted that i may be a fake pastor. that i may actually be a charlatan, but there is nothing fake about the fact that we have a cash crisis that no one can explain in our country. there is nothing fake about the

fact that the president said $15 billion went missing from the coffers. even though our government can go in to a crowd of protesters, arrest people, charge them with cyber terrorism for using their phones, our government has failed to bring one person to account for admitting $15 billion. you do how much money that is? $15 billion. you can arrest a guy with a church of 50 -- no, 48 eople. you can arrest that guy and charge him, but you cannot find a person amongst your own lieutenants that is responsible for that money? we began to see we have a case with the issues. let's press the buttons of the issues. chloe: how did that feed into the shutdown protests?

pastor mawarire: the shutdown zimbabwe event on july 6, 2016, it was something that will be etched in our memory for a long time. that is the day that we began to grab back our power. that is the day that we showed, wait, we are the ones in control. what happens, what happened, is a lot of people -- a lot of people credit me with that shutdown. it had nothing to do with me on my own. i was a contributing factor. this was a spontaneous convergence of many issues. i remember what happened was that the government had gone ahead and introduced a ban on the importation of basic commodities. we had people that had made businesses out of importing basic commodities. that was basically because we didn't have any access to jobs. they promised 2.2 million jobs, we have lost more. we have lost more jobs since possibly independence.

people created their own jobs by importing basic commodities. when the government introduced this law, people couldn't understand it. apparently you're protecting local industries that don't exist. the friday before the shutdown, there was a protest. this is where all of the traders, all the people that lived off of that industry, they had a protest that went wild. that kind of fueled on the mandate the public transportation system. also, they went ahead and were complaining about the police mishandling. how the police seem to be taking money illegally, and accusing them of little things, and then take money from them. we called for the shutdown on monday, but the civil servants stayed away from work on

tuesday and wednesday. it was a perfect storm kind of moment. what was amazing was this was a point where every zimbabwean realized. it is my hope going for that every year, without the government's permission, in zimbabwe it will be a day that the citizens stay at home to remind them who is in charge and who is in control. chloe: you talked about why people are so passionate about the flag, how it brings people together. you have often spoken about your commitment to nonviolence, constantly reiterating that on social media and media interviews.

why is it so important to the movement? why did you choose to make it a main element? pastor mawarire: i come from 2 departure points concerning the issue of nonviolence. the first one being that our government understands violence. this is a tool they have used for years. they have perfected the art of being violent. we have seen over the years that anyone who has stood up against them, they have been violent. it became important to us to understand that we cannot go into, as we protest against the government, we cannot go into it trying to do what they do best. it became obvious we would end up instilling more fear, or more people would get hurt doing that. we would destroy what we were trying to do. we can't do that. that is what they do best. they love that opportunity.

as of earlier on this morning in zimbabwe, unarmed citizens that were not fighting were beaten. including senior citizens. the second departure point for me is more principle-waist. my faith teaches me that violence begets violence. the truth of the matter is that whatever results we achieve in zimbabwe, the use of violence will have to be maintained by iolence. that will have a culture of iolence, which we don't want going forward. i had a chance to sit for an hour in atlanta. it was an outstanding meeting. i said, tell me about the civil rights movement, how you use nonviolence. he said to me, there is more power in a silent protest than a noisy one. i found that profound.

the zimbabwe government has shown they don't know what to do with people that aren't violent. they didn't know what to do with us when we stayed at home and said - we aren't going to work today. they went door-to-door to knock people out of their homes and asked them, why didn't you go to work today? how ridiculous is that? we had a protest that we did. i was in south africa at the time. our lovely cricket team, the zimbabwe cricket team, who began the idea of protesting when they mourned the death of democracy by putting on black armbands at the cricket game. we remember they did that. when new zealand played zimbabwe, i made a video and said take your flags and go to the game. showing that we are done with 36 years of repression and being silenced. take your flag and sing the national anthem. i wasn't even in the country. thousands of zimbabweans did

it. how do you arrest people singing the national anthem holding their flag? it was beautiful to see. we didn't hit anybody, we didn't insult anybody, we just ade a point. another campaign was started by a group of students. what they did was they took the graduation gowns. their graduation caps. they went onto the street. they were selling sweets and chocolates like vendors. they were playing football in the city square, putting on the gowns to show that we are unemployed. to show that the government has caused the very gowns of knowledge to be a sign of wasted talent. and the pictures went around the world. they spoke a thousand words. the same students put on their gowns at the cricket match. much to our surprise, the police arrested them for putting on graduation gowns at a cricket match.

for me, these are the means in which a government can and must e embarrassed. chloe: following the shutdown, there was a clampdown on the movement. that led to your rest. can you tell us a little bit about the circumstances surrounding your rest, and the story by which you were released? pastor mawarire: well, it is still something that every time i think about it i am surprised t what happened. we went in when the police had a call they wanted to question me. we went in voluntarily. when we arrived, after about one or two hours of interrogation, they said we are going to charge you with inciting public violence. that came as a shock.

first and foremost, i have never been arrested. i've never been charged for anything. the second thing that shocked me about the charge was that i did not incite any violence at all. in all of the videos that i made, at 1.i said to zimbabweans carry your flag for 25 days. my commitment is that i will make a video for every one of those days. a three-minute video encouraging you to why you should carry your flag with you. in each of those videos, literally as a matter of principle, i would say do not be violent. do not incite or insult anyone. do not insult the president, anyone. just carry your flag. even during the shutdown, i said stay at home, don't fight, just stay at home and do nothing. to be charged with that was a

surprise. the expectation was that i would be out in 48 hours, which s the law. i expected that they would release me on bail. before the day was over, they handcuffed me, took me, and said we are searching your house. we're looking for a baton stick and a police helmet. what would i be doing with the police helmet? they said, no, we believe you stole these things. what they wanted to do was search my house and get my phone. they put handcuffs on me, which was a surreal moment. that is when it clicked. i am actually arrested here. we went to my house, my wife came out, and i said these make

sure my girls on here. my 5-year-old and 3-year-old. i don't want them to see me like this. we went through that, they found nothing. then of course, they locked me up. the next morning, i was supposed to appear before the magistrate. we delayed going because they said there was a handful of people let the courts with their flags on. they were concerned there could be violence. we delayed and eventually got there. there is huge crowd. i distinctly remember in one of the cells at the magistrates court, it is naturally a filthy place. urine done rampantly or randomly. i just sat there with other prisoners. i wanted to say, i met young men in the cell that told me genuine stories. each of them knew who i was.

they said, they went around and began to explain what they were in for. one man stole a two liter bottle of juice. one man had smoked weed of some ort. another young guy said he had stolen a supermarket trolley, because he wanted to use it to help people carry their groceries from the supermarket to the public transport and charge money for it. they were arrested for this. there were 22 of these young guys. they said, you don't look like the guy that should be in here. people like you, when they put on glasses like you, it is usually fraud. they said, how much money did ou take? anyway, we spoke through t. they said i'm just a citizen who is standing up for my family. standing up for our nation. one guy looked at me and said, pastor, we want you to know

that we don't do what we do because we want to. we are not proud of the fact that we steal from people, that we do these things. we have nothing else to do in terms of looking after our amily. he finished by saying, for me getting arrested is a blot on my character. for you, getting arrested is a adge on your shoulder. it broke my heart. he said to me words that i only have ever read in the bible. it was the most amazing sentence. he said, remember me when you get out. as much as i was incarcerated, i got a chance to see people that don't have thousands stand for them like thousands stood for me. the case was eventually brought before the magistrate late in the day. i was supposed to appear by 9:00 a.m.

i appeared at 6:00 p.m. in front of the magistrate. my lawyer said to me, i have ad news for you. for me, bad news met that i was going to spend another night. i said are they going to throw me back in? he said no, the charge is changed. they are charging you with subverting the constitution of an elected government. i said, in english, what does that mean? he said, 40 to 60 years behind bars. it is almost as good as treason. my heart exploded. i saw my wife in the crowd. thought what have i done? how is that unfolded? it was such a moment of power for the citizens of zimbabwe. as the magistrate began, he

would take recesses. every time, i would ask to eave the courthouse. i found out i had 100 lawyers that came to represent me. i only knew of one. there were hundreds. i thought, what is going on? when the magistrate said, who is representing this man? they all produced their certificates. i was so amazed that all these young men came to make a statement. they would stand here, i would go for break, the second break which was longer than the others, the courthouse broke into song. an unprecedented move. one of the prison guards came to tell me and said do you realize you have caused people to sing in the courthouse. the magistrate could shut this whole thing down and adjourn this and cause you to be trialed on another day. that means you will be shut up for a couple more days. i thought to myself, i wish they would stop singing, but it got louder.

they sang worship songs. at one point i was sitting on the concrete floor in the waiting cell. i thought, why. why, why, why. immediately, they sang a song hat most zimbabweans know. it says zimbabwe shall be saved, and zimbabwe shall be saved. he holy spirit must come down, and zimbabwe shall be saved. at that point, i cried even louder because i knew what was going on. i knew that those people were determined. that they found an opportunity. they would take that opportunity to ignore the government to the max.

they sang and did all sorts of things. when the magistrate came back, and we don't know where he was for an hour and a half, but he came back. he was left with no choice but to release me. upon leaving the courthouse, one of the prison guards whispered in my ear and said you have to take a different route out of here, because you will be rearrested the moment ou walk out. as we walked out of the jail, which is just like in a basement, the young man walked behind me and said, take the first right. don't go to the straight gates as you were told to check out. he said you make a right turn instead. there are people waiting. i didn't know who he was or what he was talking about, but i got to the gate and to the right i saw 4 lawyers that had been inside.

i've never run so fast toward a lawyer like i did on that day. it was people i didn't know, but they felt like friends. like comrades. of course, we left. the shock of seeing the crowds of people outside, the shock of understanding what had taken place. people had been waiting for hours. they made sandwiches for each other. they bought candles for each other. people spent the day praying and singing, encouraging each other. it was outstanding, outstanding. the highlight of that day for me was the fact that the citizens of zimbabwe showed up to be able to reclaim their country. that is when something turned and something really special began to happen. chloe: that is wonderful. thank you for sharing the intimate details of that time.

i know that you said this is a great movement that has the capacity to bring real change. many have said we have seen many times like this before, where there has been hope that has been dashed. how do you respond to that criticism? what capacity do you think the movement has to bring real change in zimbabwe? pastor mawarire: the one thing people have to understand about this movement, and many movements -- please understand that there are many other expressions of the citizens ovement in zimbabwe. the one thing that the citizens know is that we are not waiting for a victory. we are not waiting for a change. we already have it. we have created space for citizens that was not previously there. we have enabled to cause our government to so panic that they have created and crafted laws to try to catch one or two

people, to try to extradite someone for posting something on facebook. so, we know that we already have a victory. and we started out the idea was that we wanted to make sure that as many zimbabweans that have been not raising their voice, our present. that we have unity. those two things were our nitial objectives. the unity of zimbabwe, we achieved that. the raising of voices by itizens, we achieved that. i want to say that we have achieved that victory. if we were to crash today completely, if this dies down today, something happened in zimbabwe that people have seen that they cannot unsee. the government now knows, and we know that they now know that we now know.

pastor mawarire: and i think for me, that is the special thing that has taken place. so going forward, everything we are now striving for is a result of these victories that we have already gotten, and depending on what happens between now and the elections in 2018, everything that happens between now and 2018 is changed. the fact that citizens are prepared now to have the protest almost every day of the week is an amazing feat, and this is where we are going. we said to the citizens that if it means that we keep our government busy with a different process in a different place every single day, obs. soviet. so the change is already appening, citizens are now the game changing factor in zimbabwe. both the ruling party and pposition know that.

we are ready to vote, but we are also ready to detect our vote. chloe: talking about game changes, we know the teachers organization have begun a 0-day march. they have also been encouraged by other groups on the ground to occupy africa unity square. what role do you think those groups will play in taking the ovement forward? pastor mawarire: these groups are playing amazing roles. i take my hat off. the teachers in zimbabwe are among the most uncelebrated in ur nation. pastor mawarire: i say so because every zimbabwean who has left zimbabwe to come and be in places like washington, d.c., to be anywhere in the world, came to the hands of a teacher who is overworked and underpaid, and e