columbia, and lives in oakland. we are extremely pleased she is joining us. please join me in welcoming carla power. [applause] i am really happy you are here. the book that i read over the last couple days is an extremely incredible look about her friendship with shaikh mohammed. if you don't mind setting the why you wrote the book, and a little bit about him. carla: i call him the shaikh. we were going to collate the "shaikh and i" but my publisher next it. -- nixed it. but i kind of wanted it to be shaikh and i."

i will start back in my childhood. half the time i grew up in the midwest and have the time in the middle east and other islamic countries. i spent my childhood shuttling between suburban st. louis and places like chiron and kabul and cairo. i got interested in islamic issues kind of the aesthetically, and then i went on to study them. as a journalist i was frustrated because as much as i tried to write about them i found that the narrative kind of bifurcated. one is that i was writing about strongmen with kalashnikovs, and oppressed women. those were the two trope i would inevitably get written about. that was when i was writing news stories. when i went on to feature stories, it's slightly widened.

i was able to write about angst like pakistani punk rock bands or halal energy drinks, or muslim european professionals. and that gave a little bit more bandwidth to the terrorism and bailed woman narrative. even then it was like, instead of saying, "muslims, they are the other," i was saying "muslims, they are just like us." there's on jaleel usually with a baby on her hip and day latte, you know. there was never kind of any opportunity to excuse oneself.

you are either looking into the abyss or looking into a hall of reflecting mirrors, where you wanted to see muslims looking exactly like the rest of us sort of thing. inched to really, really dumb down and take a muslim's worldview on their own terms. there was not room or space in mainstream even long for media. -- longer form media. and i also should say that never in 17 years of writing about islam was i asked about the koran. we tend as a secular journalists, or journalists who are mostly covering things as secularists whether we are or not, we tend to overlook the scripture that is as density animating, or where we started all of this. friend in 2011 who i

had worked with as a young woman. shaikh mohammed akram nadwi. i met him when i was 24-years-old and he was barely older than i was and he was an indian sheikh, the rising star of his own madrasah. in india and had been sent to oxford to -- at the same ink tank i was working on -- and we were sort of polite friends but in 2012, asked him, would it be ok if i shadowed you? and it really, really tried to understand what your worldview koran and thee hadith? the words and deeds of the prophet mohammed. this meant a year of conversations on everything from sex to hell to jihad, to how to

raise kids, to geopolitics. hiset me trail him to hometown in india in his hometown end up and down down the u.k. on lecture tours. and it really was an attempt to worldviewp where my -- i was raised by a quaker father and a jewish mother, both of whom were lapsed. i was raised sort of as a secular humanist. and he was this very conservatively trained scholar. and i wanted to see what brought us together and where our views diverged.

that was the template. jonathan: and you hinted a point of your long interview, that he is a complex person, with like a lot of us, full of contradictions, but also a lot of humor. you bring out not only the koran's humanity, you bring out his humanity. can you talk about that? in a sense, here is the goldmine you have been waiting for. not a superficial, they are like us. on the one hand, this. on the other hand, this. you say in the book, i was loath to hear what he said about gays and lesbians. but can you talk about how he was, in a sense, the ideal cleric? carla: well, he is extraordinarily interesting. he was raised in a tiny, tiny village, and reading vicariously by kerosene lamp persian poets and the koran. because of his brilliance, by 17, he had written a grammar on arabic, even though he grew up speaking urdu, the indian language, as well as hindi and some other languages. so he started out from this

tremendously rural, taking the buffalos to be watered in the evening, and reading by kerosene light at night. but in many ways, he is more cosmopolitan than i am. i mean, when i started seeing the layers and layers of what a cosmopolitan religious scholar has at his disposal -- he is linked in to a network of religious scholars. whenever we hear "network" these days linked to islam, we all immediately freeze and think it is al qaeda or something else. but, of course, he is part of a global network of intensely learned folks who are not involved in politics and yet who help each other out on texts and so on. whenever i went anyplace, he would be -- i would be like, i'm

going to india. he said, i need to get a certificate of learning from a scholar in jaipur. could you get that for me? and he collects these sort of certificates of learning from other scholars the way you would go and pick up a yankees cap if you went to new york with a friend. and so this very cosmopolitan view of the world that comes not through having traveled 37 countries in a year or whatever, but instead from being linked through scholarship. jonathan: and one of the points that is really relevant and timely, and i am so glad this is a part of your book, is his views on women in islam. it is a controversial touch point for muslims and non-muslims alike. it has become a political

touchstone. i believe he has six daughters? carla: six daughters, yeah. jonathan: more importantly, he has written -- he is the first scholar to write about hidden women in islam, upwards of 9000? carla: 10,000. yeah, i mean, he came from an incredibly conservative, in terms of gender politics -- his family was so conservative that daughters and fathers, after daughters reach adolescence, try not to speak to one another. they observed this in such a strict ways that brothers and sisters, after adolescence, will not talk to one another. i am pretty sure i was the first -- i know i was the first, you know, american that he was friends with. but i am sure i was the first woman that he spoke to freely outside the madrasa because they were not allowed.

so he comes from this very constrictive notion of what is right and proper. that said, i call him the accidental feminist. because one day, about 15 years ago, he sat me down and said, carla, i'm working on something i know you will be interested in. i know you're interested in women's issues. i am going to do something on women's scholars on the words and deeds of the prophet muhammad. and he is like, it will be a slim volume, maybe 20 or 30 scholars. because there are some very well-known erudite women stretching back to the time of the prophet muhammad in the seventh century. and people know of them, and a couple scholars have written on them before. but in english. i am sure more have written in other languages, but he started going. and he was looking in the margins of all sorts of other forms of books.

he was looking in travel books, he was looking in lists at the end of mosques in madrasa, who had studied there. and he now has over 10,000 women scholars stretching back to the days of the prophet muhammad. and not just quantity, but quality. some of these women have extraordinary freedoms that, for many women, across many muslim societies, they could only imagine. women riding on horseback on camelback on lecture tours across the arabian peninsula. women bouncing around, going to study with different scholars from jerusalem to damascus. women issuing fatwas, religious opinions, and being -- working as judges. one woman, my favorite, who was

so revered and who taught both men and women, as well as caliphs and other scholars, she was so revered that she used to give her lectures leaning on the tomb of the prophet muhammad. and not only that, she would get the best place. she would lean on the head. up at the head. so these are extraordinary freedoms that have been all but forgotten, certainly in mainstream texts about what constitutes islamic scholarship. jonathan: and one of the many points your book brings up is that islam, when it came into being, it was i do not want to use the word "egalitarian," but women mixed with men. and you point this out through the words of sheikh mohammed akram nadwi, in a sense, it was after the death of the prophet

where these legal strictures became politicized. you do a good job through him own really nice writing of explaining the arc of islam. and in a way, it fills in so many blanks people have and clears up assumptions. that people can relate to. if you could talk about that as well. carla: it is funny. sort of talking about, you know, the prophet muhammad's time with him, and, you know, talking about -- it is very well-known, his first wife was khadija, who was his boss, who was 15 years his senior, who ran a very successful caravan trading company in mecca, and who asked him to marry her. and they had a long and happy relationship. and that sort of strong woman. you can see, when you look at

the prophet's biography, he clearly reveres women. and this has been sort of eroded over -- things got much worse for women when the scholars started developing jurisprudence. and suddenly, instead of the relatively egalitarian -- and relatively -- it came out of the seventh century culture where baby girls were being buried alive because women were conceived of as chattel, basically, and girls had absolutely no rights, so within this context, islam came in, and women could suddenly inherit. women were seen as people, too, rather than something to be inherited. so islam came in and really radically helped women. but in the ninth and 10th centuries, these medieval scholars were interpreting the koran and the words of the

prophet muhammad through the lens of being medieval men. and that is when you get a lot of the more problematic and less equal interpretations of islam. and so, i mean, what is going on now in the muslim world is incredibly exciting. because you have a really muscular islamic feminist movement, where women are going back and reading these basic sources for themselves and saying, wait a minute. it doesn't mean i am lesser than my husband. we have equal rights. so this is another -- you know, you hear about it much less because it does not make the headlines that isis does. but this is another incredibly exciting and important ferment we are witnessing now. jonathan: i do not want to plug your book too much. but i am going to laud it again. carla: go ahead.

[laughter] jonathan: one of the things i like about your book is that the book is written after a year-long interview with the sheikh. but it is not just the sheikh. you talk to his daughters. you talk to his wife. and one of the key points in the book revolves around his daughter and the fact that she wants to wear the niqab. and, actually, the sheikh does not necessarily want her to wear it. and she says, basically, i'm going to do what i want to do. and i think she was all of 16-years-old. the sheikh talks a lot about the politics behind people's choices within the muslim world and how, in a sense, it does not necessarily, but it can

represent their faith. for him, faith is everything. ornamentation is sort of whatever it is, and so, that is when he is asked about, should i dye my hair, should i wear a pray, theseen i things that are, in a sense, superficial, ornamentations of the face, could you talk a little bit about that? women are in there, but all of these other things. carla: he is really skeptical of everything from, you know, the drive to set up an islamic state -- not the islamic state, but you know, the need for sharia law, the need -- the desperate struggles for people to wear hijab in france or not to wear hijab in france. he says it is all about internal piety. in many ways, he reminded me of episcopalians. in many ways, he viewed it as a very personal thing. it is between you and god. and politics are besides the point. i think a lot of his students

get very frustrated with this. they are like, look at what is going on all over the muslim world. one of the most moving moments i see, and they get really frustrated when, you know, he will sit there in front of an auditorium full of, like, angry, young men, and they will say, it is terrible what is going on in iraq. it is terrible, what is going on on the west bank. and he, as a child whose parents are old enough to remember partition and how bloody it was getting an islamic state in pakistan, will say, we have our islamic state. it is pakistan. how is that working out? not so well. so he is skeptical of outward ornaments, as you say. one of the only things he said that made me think we should

print up bumper stickers is, if you have got god consciousness, you don't need fatwas. jonathan: [laughter] carla: it is usually not that pithy. jonathan: i want to get into -- on a slight tangent, your personal relationship with him. carla: mm-hmm. jonathan: as you said at the outset, your mother was jewish. your father was a quaker, but they were a bit lapsed. i hope i am not giving away the book, in a sense, but one of the threads is, and i have been this way, as somebody who has traveled in the muslim world, what is your faith? what are you, people often ask. they say, you could be a good muslim -- wink. carla: right. jonathan: that is part of living in the world, right? but how were you accepted as a secular, feminist, "new

yorker"-reading -- one of the points you make is that you question your own orientalism. carla: very much. jonathan: so if you could talk about how you are viewed as kind of an outsider who became an insider for a year. carla: yeah. you know, i mean, he was very gentle. he was very hopeful, i suspect, at some part of him, that i would convert. but i never got the hard sell from him. i think he took a huge risk in letting me go. and it is described in the book. i went back to his hometown where he set up two madrasas. one for boys, one for girls, and he said, you need to go and speak to the boys' madrasas. an islamic seminary. and i realized in hindsight how very brave he was, in a sense, putting his reputation on the

line, having this woman traveling without her husband, an american. i did not, at that point, reveal to the crowd i had a jewish mother. because he was already -- he was already putting himself on the line by people who might criticize him for being too liberal. you know? oh, look, there is akram. he goes to oxford and is suddenly importing western feminists to talk about building bridges. and i had not appreciated how not dangerous but how risky it was for him, in a way, and his reputation. the thing that we kept asking him over and over again was whether he thought i was going to hell because piety is so central to his reading of the koran.

he said, you know, look. the central thing is we have to avoid going to hell if at all possible. we do not -- you know, it is for god to decide. but -- and there are many, many muslims who believe that jews and christians and others, you do good works, and you will not go to hell. there is many readings of the koran that say that. the sheikh did not read it that way. you know, i remember one day we were sitting, and we were parsing this particular verse describing the hungry flames of hell and the manacles and the chains and how it was like a lion. and he was reading it, and it seemed he was interpreting it literally, which kind of surprised me, because here is a man who can quote shakespeare more than i can, who knows

poetry in seven different languages, and who is alive to metaphors and nuances in language. so i sort of timidly raised my hand and said, these chains are metaphorical, right? slightly nervously. and he said, no, no. they are absolutely real. we need to do our best to avoid them. he thinks i am going to hell unless i convert to being a muslim, although he said it very gently and diplomatically. [laughter] jonathan: i want to get into his life a little bit. one, you met him, and as you said, he can quote poetry, and when you met him, as a young man, i believe he read sartre. and yet he could also quote but did not know his name, vince lombardi. the other thing he admitted again, and i have to say, i love the guy. carla: i do, too.

i do, too. jonathan: he says, who are the beatles? i mean, he did not know who the beatles were. and on the other hand, he is open to society and says muslims, wherever they live, should live in that society and wish for well-being in that society and improve the economy of that society. carla: absolutely. jonathan: he is a very complex figure. carla: absolutely. jonathan: you are allowed to dig into those complexities. were you surprised by that? i mean -- and was he surprised at all by his own forthrightness? carla: no. i think he very much -- the reason he agreed to do it was he said, look, americans and other westerners, they hear from the people making headlines. but they don't hear from people

-- quietists -- who are sitting, reading their 12th-century texts and dispensing wisdom. and so, he agreed to do that. i think he was tremendously open and kind of like, write what you want. you know? he absolutely was not fazed by having someone shadowing him. he went to this really interesting madrasa. you know, when i went -- as you will know from reporting in pakistan, too, post 9/11, we all trotted to madrasas in pakistan, where we would see the sort of stereotype of little boys lined up in lines, rocking back and forth, memorizing the koran without understanding it too much. he went to a madrasa started in the 19th century by indians who wanted to fuse the best of western learning and of islamic classical learning. and islamic classical learning, certainly after the medieval times, included aristotle, plato, rhetoric, all the things that we would see as a classical education ourselves.

and, you know, i went there. this is no madrasa like the maktoubs we had seen. but it was guys were playing badminton on badminton courts. there was a poetry slam competition every night at the cafe. they were reading shakespeare and sartre. it was a really intellectual place that was producing very, very sort of traditional scholars. it's not like these folks were going to -- it is not like the institute in berkeley where

there is a real attempt to think about being, you know, americans and thinking about american jurisprudence. it was very traditional. but it let the world in in a way i do not think we often think of islamic education leading the world in. jonathan: i am going to take one question from the audience. the audience is writing questions on cards. is the sheikh part of the most indian sufi lineage? where does he situate himself in the mystical fulcrum? carla: he does not admit to being a sufi, but i think he has sufi-istic tendencies. he loves sufi poetry and i think respects it, but he is not linked to any particular sufi lineage at all, explicitly, no. no.

jonathan: i want to remind people listening at home and watching that this is a commonwealth california program. and we are talking to carla power, author of the pulitzer prize nominated book "if the oceans were ink." and, by the way, that is a reference -- takes its wording from the koran itself, i believe. poeticeall -- really a passage. carla: it comes from a passage that says, if the oceans were ink, the words of our lord would never run out. and i chose it in part because it is so beautiful and in part because it seemed to me to reflect the possibilities and the pluralism of interpretations that i hope to find by studying it. and by talking to him. i mean, one of the most profound things that i came out of the year feeling is that he threw my own traditions into relief. that i went in thinking, not realizing, the extent of my own

sort of rabid individualism. i remember talking to his daughter. she says, this whole me-me-me business starts with my kids. we go to school and have to do show and tell. show and tell is like, look what i have. and suddenly, you know, through this anecdote of show and tell, i saw this entire, oh, my goodness -- this is a me-centered society. and how different it is to live with people who are really, really god-centered. and everything they have they think is a gift from god. that sounds like a cliche, but i -- it really was quite a profound experience. jonathan: well, i referenced vince lombardi earlier. one of the reasons he glommed on to his philosophy was the idea that people might have a physical capability or

something, but if they do not have will, that is a problem. the sheikh himself is one of the most willful people you will meet. when he was at university, while his friends with me to the movies, he did not go out once. he would study for three days at a time. that sort of thing. one of the many touching scenes in the book, tell me if i am right, where i believe your father died. he gave you poetry. it is really, really touching. can you talk about that? carla: yes, it is in the book. my dad, right before we met in pakistan in the early 1990's, my father was killed suddenly and violently. and i was living in england at the time and working with the sheikh at this think tank. i went into the office the next

day to gather my stuff, because i was flying back to st. louis, and i had not known this guy. i had only known this guy as the only guy at the office who was not freaked out the day prince charles came to visit the office. he was like slightly, you know, aloof and dignified in a way i have not been able to figure out. but i was such a mess. and i walked in and told him what had happened. and i still remember. it was like october in oxford. and the light is burnished. and he stands up next to his desk and starts reciting in urdu the words of this philosopher poet, an elegy written for his own mother who, when she died. and the words are something like, who will wait for my letters now? who will wait for me in the middle of the night when i have not come home? and i did not know what he was

saying. but it was this sudden connection, the first of many, of just an electric human connection in another language. he then had to translate it for me. and that -- i date the start of our friendship to that moment. because -- and oddly, it was the most comforting thing that anybody said to me during my grieving period because it was so basic and big and transcultural. i was like, everybody dies. right. ok. it was a very moving experience. jonathan: well, let me pivot into a question an audience member asked, and in a way, as i was reading the book, i thought, wow. and forgive me for saying the word, but i could see conservatives saying, this guy is an exception to the rule. nice to meet you, but sorry. most of islam is different,

right? the audience question is, given the sheikh's background, does he accurately represent the muslim world at large? carla: i think it is really dangerous to talk about the muslim world at large. i am highly skeptical the minute anybody says islam says or muslims do. to say that about 1.6 billion people who range from tribesmen to anesthetists in kansas, how do you bridge that? what is interested about the sheikh is his conservativism. he is absolutely steeped in the classical text, in a classical tradition, but has allowed him -- it is his knowledge of the text has allowed him, in some cases, to find, you know, very liberating solutions for women.

in other cases, not at all. one of the most profound lessons i learned is there is no spectrum in islam. i mean, in the first couple of months, i sort of ran around trying to figure out, what kind of sheikh and my studying with? is he a moderate? is he a conservative? is he a fundamentalist? is he a wahhabi? here he is, really liberal on women. at the same time, he is convinced i'm going to hell. here he is on the canon on what it means to be an islamic scholar. he will not tolerate homosexuality. i went to see a cambridge university professor. he is like, forget it. the first thing you have to realize is there is no spectrum. if you are trying to use christianity as a default tradition and sort of plot islam onto that, it is not going to work. there are sufis, mystics, who are tremendously conservative

when it comes to gender issues. and there are literalists that are enormously progressive in some ways. so i think we have to shuck offer preconceptions of left and right and moderate and conservative and so on and look at the lived reality of various muslims. so i think the sheikh is extraordinary, in answer to the question, but i think his views are grounded in the text. and he manages to make both progressives angry and traditionalists angry at various points. so -- and in that sense, i think he is rather rare in that he has not affiliated himself with a particular school of thought. jonathan: one of the things you bring up in the book -- it is not a huge point, but it is a point worth stating now, where

he himself says most muslims have not read the koran themselves. and that -- you alluded to this earlier, about people, if you can memorize the koran, you get that honorific. but there is a difference between memorization and intellectually engaging and interpreting, so i thought that was a really important reminder. and so, what you have then are a lot of muslims that do not read the koran, and a lot of critics that have not read the koran. carla: you mean non-muslims? yeah. yeah. jonathan: yeah. carla: yeah. our first lesson, i was absolutely terrified to tell him. it seems to me -- i have written about muslims, you know, for more than 15 years, and to admit at this point in my career to not having read the koran is like being a tenured professor

and admitting to skipping hamlet and homer. so i was tremendously nervous to tell him. he was like, don't worry. most muslims don't either. and not only most wanted a muslims, but the thing i found fascinating was he said, if you look at madrasa curriculums, in the seminaries, koran is kind of, you know, an assumption. but if you are a really, you know, ambitious, young man, the big, sort of real positions are in law, jurisprudence, maybe arabic grammar, or maybe in other things. the koran does not get you that far in terms of worldly gigs after you leave the seminary. that is his argument as to why it is so forgotten. jonathan: well, maybe this is a good time to segue to the

audience, which is why does islam get more than its share of negative press in the united states? you write about that from your own personal standpoint in the book. and i think perhaps it is relative to answering the question. carla: yeah. i think the sad thing is we are in -- you and i are in an event-driven business. and the violent extremists have figured out a way to insert themselves into the headlines. and the vast majority of the rest of the world's 1.6 billion muslims have not. you know, it is depressing, but the old saying -- if it bleeds, it leads is true for all groups. but, sadly, there are not too many counter narratives that make it into the news headlines about islam. there was a recent study that asked people about what the face

of various religions was. and because islam is so diffuse, you know, there is no hope. there is no mainstream clergy in sunni islam. with shia, it is different, but for catholics, the face of catholicism was the pope. unfortunately, among americans, the face of islam was al-baghdadi, the head of isis. and, you know, it is a really, really difficult problem, i think. i remember pitching about a year ago -- i was really excited. because it seems to me, a seminal text had come out. a group of women scholars had gone to verse 434, which has been referred to as the dna of patriarchy in the muslim world. that is the verse in the koran

that has been privileged among many others in gender relations. and it argues that men, in many translations, men have authority over women. and this, you know, when you see, you know, wives having to take a second wife, having to, you know, allow their husband to take a second wife, it is verse 434. when you see the saudis saying, every woman is a minor and needs a male guardian to let her get a passport, a job, and an education up until recently, then that is verse 434. so this group of muslim feminists had gone back and analyzed the grammar, the history of the privileging of this verse in islamic jurisprudence. they had looked at it and come up with a book on this, sort of

questioning, and they pointed to lots of other verses in the koran that describe much more egalitarian relationships between men and women. you know, be a comfort to one another. be help-mates. and all sorts of other verses that were ignored in medieval jurisprudence. and this was the privileged first. i got very excited about this book. it seemed to me that this was news. and i went to an editor, and i pitched it. i said, this could change gender relations in the muslim world. you know, there are all these battles being fought as we speak of feminists in various countries trying to change the laws on inheritance and so on. and this would really be grist for their mill. and the editor said, it is a good story, but let's put it in the ideas section, which was a sweet little backwater. relative to the news section,

and, of course, the irony is, you know, if these women had blown something up, they would be in the news, so that is the horrible dance we are doing. and i hate to say it, but the media has been complicit in some ways with the outlier, violet jihadis, because that is something horrible, and we obligingly stick it on the front of websites or the front page. jonathan: well, i'm going to ask one related question. i am going to combine some questions. i believe you say he earned his salary from oxford, which funds his madrasas. the question is, does the koran promote violence against nonbelievers?

you get into that, as do a lot of scholars, well, at the time, it is complicated. and the prophet saw jews -- it gets more complicated than that. carla: the famous verse which extremists of all stripes like to cite, kill the unbelievers where you find them, is linked to a very specific moment in early islamic history when the muslim armies were way outgunned, effectively. and there were many other attempts. muhammad said, can i use violence now? can i use violence now? and, finally, because there was a breakdown and the meccans who were attacking them had gone back on their treaty, that is

the specific moment you can kill the unbelievers. but there are other verses in the koran at other times that say, you believe what you believe, and we will believe what we believe, and we will go together. there is an argument that when muhammad moved from mecca to medina, there is a central moment where, because the tribes in mecca are so -- because they are treating this tiny band of muslim so badly and pelting them with garbage, and muhammad's life is actually in danger, they moved to medina nearby. which is where the first sort of islamic community is found, but when the prophet and his followers move there, there are jews, there are pagans, and so

on. the prophet, for the first few years, thinks there is not much difference between monotheists. so the jews and the muslims, there is an argument, and there are scholars who believe he did not see much difference between them. they were all monotheists as opposed to the polytheists, but this all sort of change. but that sort of happy togetherness does not get much airtime. jonathan: i am going to take a few of these questions and try to combine them. one -- this is more a point. that a question. why are there so many issues about women scholars when what about buddhists? all religions deface the value of women scholars.

another question is related to that. an audience member says around 2000, i visited a mosque in boston with a religious education class from our unitarian church. and we came away thinking that islam discourages questions or inquiry by their followers, i'm guessing no but yes. carla: many, many -- no, but yes. i have to say a lot of the sheikhs students are, in the british term, gobsmacked, when they can come into a class and ask questions. one of the most dramatic moments in the book came when two of the sheikh's youngest, smartest scholars made him change his mind on child marriage, one of the most painful conversations we kept having over the years. he refused to condemn it in a blanket sense.

these young women went and argued with him. in the context of a situation where, often, in many madrasas, you listen and the teacher talks. and speaking back to authority and questioning the professor is not the done thing. so i think -- i think, as you say, yes, and not the sheik, but i think it is a rare thing. jonathan: there may be a few people in the audience who have read the book already. after i read it, many things came to my mind. one of them was the movie, "my dinner with andre." i will say it because that movie, those of you who are old enough, like me, is about two people mulling the big questions. it is very much funny, but a serious way to challenge each other. in a way, you were doing that with the sheikh.

and he was doing that with you. it was the proverbial two-way street. you did ask about gays and lesbians. we have a question from the audience. you seem to have skated over the issue of gays and lesbians. i am gay. i have lots of close muslim friends. i would like to know where i stand. [laughter] carla: well, he, i mean, homosexuality was yet another big, big departure for both of us, because i kept saying, this is going on -- we were talking over the course of the year. you know, gay marriage became legal. and it was obviously very exciting for me. and he said, i am not denying that god gives some folks different urges, but that is a test from god.

and the reason -- you know, marriage is heterosexual, and that is it. now, i have to say that is his view. but there are some really exciting things going on in south africa and here and in europe, as well, where people are really working on gay theologies in islam. and, i think, after orlando, there were a lot of gay muslims came out and talked about it. but there are scholars, too, who are working to see if there is wiggle room here in terms of the texts themselves, and so my answer to you would the just go to the right sheikh and you will be fine. [laughter] carla: which is another thing. i mean, that is the thing. people have this sense of, you know, islam being this strict, brittle, single thing.

there is one law. over and over again, one of the great surprises was how flexible it can be and how flexible your relationship to islamic scholarship can be. the sheikh's daughter, the one who defied her dad and started wearing the niqab for awhile, wanted to dye her hair, and she asked her dad his opinion on dying her hair. he said, i do not think it is a great idea. she went down the block and went to another sheikh who said, i have no problem with people dying their hair. and she is like great, and she dyed her hair. there is this kind of fatwa shopping that you can do, so -- [laughter] jonathan: i am going to combine a couple questions again. in the book, you talk about living as a young girl in muslim

majority countries. and i believe you were five years old in tehran when you tried on your first -- you talk about the feeling it gave you. in a sense, you -- it was a multi sensory experience for you. and given your -- given the arc of your life, for you did live in cairo and kabul, granted in privileged circumstances, right? and your parents moved, and you asked your parents in the book, how could you have not known there were these underbellies of society. you are kind of in this protective bubble. how could you not know? in a way, you are talking to your parents but to the reader. carla: i mean, one of the things i wanted to do in this book was look at how westerners have

viewed the islamic world. and i did that through my father in my story. my father was a chronic depressive. he was a law professor. really, the only way he could be happy with either being in san francisco or the islamic world. and so, we went abroad for professional reasons, but it really was he found, aesthetically and in terms of the culture, it helped his depression. and i also think i was really privileged because the era was the 1970's, which was an incredibly important turning point in, certainly, america's relationship with islamic societies, and with the tumult in the islamic world itself.

and so, my father's islamic world, it was the last time you could kind of do what westerners have been doing for the last 200 years -- more than 200 years. i don't know, since queen elizabeth signed the east india company tract in 1501. or whatever. that islamic countries were out there. you know, there was a mysterious orient, and it was other from us. i came of age, and that was not true. as you have written in your books, you have -- that there were muslims here much earlier than the 1960's and 1970's, when there really was a mass movement of professionals to america and of factory workers and other less professional jobs in europe. but i think that change, watching my father's distant orient become now household words here, and also islam is

us. we are muslim. it has totally changed in the past 30 years with migration, with technology, and with a change in demography. jonathan: i think we are coming down to the last -- no, we have about five minutes or so, but this is a good question from the audience. in the book, it is what the sheikh is telling you and other people about islam, its arc, how he is living the muslim life. a good muslim life. the question is what, if anything, do you think he learned from you? how did you change his perspective or perspectives? carla: it was funny. because in our last lesson, we met at this museum in oxford. and i was really excited. because i was sort of like, you know, all through the year, i was kind of like, you know,

don't you want to know about what the beatles are? don't you want to know? are you as curious about me as i am about you? and he was not. he was incredibly polite and would always ask after my kids and my husband and what i was writing. but there was a self satisfaction there. and so, we go to the museum. and there is a leonardo on the left and michelangelo on the right. and we are going through, and i did not expect him to sit there -- of course, because of the muslims frowning on idols. on depictions of the human form, so i did not expect him to want to stare at the michelangelo nude with me. but i was -- i was, i wanted to know about curiosity. i wanted him to sort of be excited about the aesthetics we were seeing. we were even in the islamic wing. and he was very happy to get on

with our lesson. and i said, have i changed you? have i changed you, sheikh? he said, carla, just to be here, i am sitting next to you, aren't i? if the sheikhs back at his madrasa could see me sitting next to another man's wife in a museum, they would not believe it. they would not know what to do. so, basically, his answer to me, in the most polite and diplomatic way, was, i am talking to you, aren't i? i am talking to you. i am talking to you about sex and that's and relationships. and death and relationships. what is this, if not your precious pluralism? what you want, so that was my answer. it was extremely humbling.

it was the conversation that was the connection. jonathan: another thing i was reminded of as i was reading the book, i don't mean this in a bad way. there was a controversy maybe 10 years ago, a european journalist hung out with a man in afghanistan -- that was controversial because the bookseller himself after the book came out read the book and said, you have to be kidding me. you have portrayed me in such a negative light. i would never have cooperated with you if i knew what you were going to say, so in a sense, as writers and journalists, the people we interview take a leap of faith with us. and they can do that based on instinct. they can do it these days based on the internet and libraries, like let me see your work before i even allow you to get near me. you have the luxury of being friends with the sheikh, but he did take a leap of faith with this project.

now, the book has been published for how long now? carla: it was april last year. jonathan: april last year. plenty of time for people to digest it and say -- and finger point. i would quibble with this chapter, why you -- this isn't flattering. has he read the book, and have people elsewhere read it, and what has been their thoughts? carla: i mean, i was incredibly nervous when i showed it to him. and he'd like it a lot. he gives it out when he goes on lecture tours. he gives it out to people, which is really nice. yes, i mean, he said, my daughters learned more about me from you than from -- and, i am. i continue to be amazed and awed and grateful because he's an intensely private guy. i come from the land of oprah, and i kept -- it was like

pulling teeth, literally saying, tell me a narrative. what was it like when you were growing up? what was it like? and the sense of talking about the self. at one point -- he's never cranky, but at one point he was like, the prophet mohammed didn't have to talk about his childhood or what happened in his childhood. [laughter] carla: it is fine. so that whole notion of, i'm doing a narrative of you and you are going to be at the center of it, i suspect made him slightly uncomfortable. but when it came around, and when he saw how it was accordion like and opened into all sorts of different issues, he approved, which was a huge relief. jonathan: do you think he approved of you initially? let's go back 20 years, when you are at oxford university, right? you are in your 20's, and write in the book -- you admit a lot of things. one of the things you admit is, i wore a short skirt, the shorter the better.

because -- i think the way you put it was, i wanted to bring the world into this oxford center. now, you were in your 20's, and i don't know if you would say the same thing now. what about that? did he have a good impression of you? carla: i think, yeah, i was 24 and i literally, all i knew was the importance of myself and that was it, you know? i think, you know, he was very polite back then, and i don't know. i don't know what he thought of me. but i do have to say that i edited less and less about myself as our friendship went on, and he accepted it. i think he knows that, you know, i am much more liberal than he is, and he accepts it.

i think, quite literally, what worries him is that i'm going to end up in hell. so there is a real mutual respect and fondness. i think one miniskirt is not going to upset us. too much. jonathan: but are you -- i'm not trying to be snide with this, but are you worried you are going to hell? [laughter] carla: am i worried about going to hell? jonathan: after this book and getting into the spirituality, have you changed that at all? carla: i'm not worried i'm going to go to hell. not because i'm a particularly good person, but because i have not yet taken that leap of faith to believe in it. so no. jonathan: so much, a again, one of the many layers of the book that i enjoyed as a parent was that it is really in some ways about the passing on of knowledge and of love. it is not just memorization.

it is actually fondness and love for your offspring and for people who are in -- who come into your family. they don't have to be blood relations. and in a way, one of the things you make very clear in this book, and a lot of other authors have, as well, is that islam breaks down the barriers of tribalism, or has trying to and for the first time said, we don't care what color you are, what tribe you are in, all are welcome. i don't care how much money you have. and so, that point is very well made. growing up myself in a sort of jewish tribalism, it was one of the things i was really taken by. but also, just the love he has for people. carla: yes, he's quite extraordinary that way. again, i think some of his students find, not that they are not loving people themselves, but he is so eager for everyone to concentrate on their personal piety rather than say, politics,

is very difficult. and some have said, you know, there you are sitting in leafy oxford. it is fine for you to work on your piety. but, you know, one of the most moving moments was when one of his students, a brilliant young scientist at cambridge who came to his koran classes on weekends, and she was egyptian, and her brother was in the muslim brotherhood. and she was in the muslim brotherhood too, because she had decided that in egypt, the only real opposition, the only real way to make things better, was to join the brotherhood. and her brother under morsi when there was the coup, when the brotherhood were in, he was the foreign secretary.

and when there was the coup by the military, he was put in solitary confinement and in jail, and i remember going up to the sheikh afterwards and saying, you keep saying we should just concentrate on personal piety and doing good things, but what am i supposed to do? let my brother hang? and he said, you know, it's a test from god. so that kind of frustration from folks who were coming from countries that didn't have the freedoms that he has in the u.k., i think was very frustrating for some people. jonathan: this may be our last question. coming into tonight's talk, i was scanning the headlines. one of them, of course, related to donald trump. [laughter] jonathan: yeah. but he's continuing antagonism toward american muslims and muslims in general, and the fact that he wants to essentially

have every muslim immigrant put to a litmus test. kind of a litmus test. the other headline i saw, and, again, i am focused on this because of the talk and by own interest, is that in france, another town has banned the burkini, and it has caused quite a controversy there. and in your book, the sheikh talks about, well, whether you wear a burka, burkini -- he doesn't mention the burkini, but he might as well as have, whatever, these are just outward manifestations, and within your own homes, you can be as private as you want to be, and the reality of that, people said, this is unfair. they are specifically criticizing and punishing muslims. how do you as an observer who has written this book, who has lived and traveled, how do you respond or analyze the commotion being called that around muslim and islam in society now?

mean i think it is interesting that you picked up on the veil. it has got to be the most written about, most content most contested piece of fabric in humankind. is things like that where the height of your minaret in switzerland, these very superficial things that become lightning rods for everything else. and that superficiality is sad. -- 63% of, when americans say they do not know a muslim. and often, the places where there is greatest fear that

sharia law will take over or that the muslims are coming, the muslims are coming, are the precise places where there are no muslims in sight. quite literally. and i live in britain where the theest voters for anti-migration party are all in places where there are no migrants. so, it is this disconnect between knowledge -- whenever anyone asks me -- what can we do to break down these barriers? -- go to as low-tech mosque. the shake is trying to organize -- have your neighbor over for dinner. basic things that are ultimately going to break down these prejudices. >> i think that is a good spot to leave on. power,nks to carla

author of the pulitzer prize nominated book. copies of her book are on sale in the hallway to our left. she will be happy to sign a copy for you. this meeting of the commonwealth club of california is adjourned. [applause] >> gary johnson is also on the campaign trail addressing voters and supporters in des moines, last saturday. he talks about marriage equality, health care, immigration, and the legalization of marijuana. he also discussed the importance of being included in the presidential debate. and how social media is helping

him attract more supporters. this is an hour. ♪ [applause] gary johnson: so many places to be on a saturday afternoon, you honor me. is this the craziest election ever? we know how crazy it is. i will be the next president of the united states, that's how crazy it is. [applause] gary johnson: you know, people ask me all the time, it's got to

be cool former governor. what's that like? in new mexico, i kid you not, people wave at me with all five fingers and not just one. [laughter] gary johnson: beyond my wildest dreams, bill weld is my running mate. [applause] gary johnson: he has served one term prior to my taking office and then i got elected. he was known as the smartest governor in the room. everybody acknowledged bill weld as the smartest governor. brainy bill. brainy bill, honest gary -- that is what we are going to try to apply our nicknames ahead of time. [applause] gary johnson: but the two of us coming together, two former republican governors that served

two terms each in heavily democrat states, fiscally conservative, over-the-top, socially inclusive, i think i've just described the majority of americans in this country. [applause] gary johnson: i would also like to add that i think the majority of citizens in this country also have a real skepticism about our foreign military policy that has us as the world's policeman as opposed to, look, if we are attacked, we are going to attack back. we do have to have an invincible national defense and military superiority, but being the world's policeman has come at a great cost. i've always lived my life believing that if you tell the truth, you do not have to remember anything. it's really easy. [applause]

gary johnson: and success in life is a really dictated by how we deal with failure. failure is something that presents itself all the time. i mean, every single day we come up against it. and every single day, figuring that anything that can go wrong will go wrong, that is life. anything that could go wrong will go wrong. do we curl up in a ball, declare ourselves victims? or do we get a smile on our face and realize this is part of the process and get up tomorrow and deal with it? well, let's have a smile on our face, get up tomorrow, and deal with it because it's how we deal with success that ultimately determines failure. i have one bit of advice for everybody here today. and my advice is worth exactly what you are paying for it, which is nothing.

[laughter] gary johnson: but my advice is that whatever it is you do, whatever it is that you know, apply it entrepreneurally. the will never be a greater reward than creating your own job or creating jobs for other. government can play a role in reducing the barriers for you and i to be able to do that. right now there is one area in our lives that creates equal opportunity for all of us and that is the internet. we have the ability, each and every one of us, to compete with anyone in the world individually. i have to tell you right now that the government is poised to pass a whole bunch of legislation. they're going to pass legislation under the guise of equality, but the reality is that it is going to restrict a lot of us from being able to do that. bill weld and i will stand up

against that infringement on equal opportunity that will exist. [applause] gary johnson: i do think that the model of the future is uber everything. uber electrician, uber doctor, uber accountant. where the middleman is eliminated to allow you as the provider of goods and services to provide those goods and services to a user who is going to pay less for it. you're going to make more eliminating the middleman. i think it's really exciting and i think we have just seen the tip of the iceberg of the sharing economy. airbnb -- is there a better place to visit than iowa in the summer? no, not really. there isn't. too hot. [laughter] gary johnson: i'm thinking of

the lakes. anyway, it is a beautiful state, but airbnb. i'm talking to a young lady in baltimore. she is 26 years old. she got her phd in science and said, i have these horrible student debts and i figured out a way to pay back the student debts -- airbnb. renting out my place, making enough money to pay back my student debt. guess what? the city of baltimore came in and said no to airbnb. this is politics. this is crony capitalism. this is when the government injects itself in the economy and unfairly takes away opportunity that you and i could have competing with others. believe me -- this presents itself all the time. as governor of new mexico, i saw this legislation that passed all the time that gave unfair advantage to those who had money and influence and it gave them

more money and influence. bill weld and i are not looking to get elected king or dictator. we are looking to get elected president and vice president or planning a partnership, really something unique, getting two for the price of one. i think it's a real positive, but what you can count on, us being president and vice president, is certainty. and there will be certainty when it comes to tax policy. the taxes will get simpler. we will always sign on to making taxes simpler. [applause] gary johnson: we will always sign on to reducing taxes and reducing taxes is money out of your and my pocket that we could be spending on our lives as opposed to government knowing best. and then rules and regulations. contrary to what most people

think, world and regulations benefit those that are already in places of power and influence and dissuade those of us who would like to compete with them ultimately. back to this equal opportunity level playing field. there are three scenarios in this upcoming election. let's see -- we elect trump. we elect clinton. [booing] does anybody believe that the polarity that exists between democrats and republicans today -- they want to kill each other. does anybody believe that's going to get any better given the election of trump or clinton? no, no way. now there is a third scenario. two former republican governors, libertarians, getting elected president and vice president down that big six lane highway down the middle, hiring a

bipartisan administration, democrats, republicans. [applause] libertarians. [applause] gary johnson: everybody is going to be libertarian-leaning. bipartisan administration calling out both sides to come on and let's deal with the problems that this country is facing. i think that third scenario has the possibility of actually succeeding. [applause] gary johnson: i agree 100% with hillary clinton's number one issue in this campaign. i agree 100% with donald trump's number one issue in this campaign.

i would not vote for trump if i were clinton and i would not vote for clinton if i were trump. [applause] gary johnson: libertarians -- common sense. keep government out of my bedroom. keep government out of my pocket book. and stop supporting regime change that has made the world less safe and not more safe. [applause] gary johnson: fiscally conservative -- why be fiscally conservative? why balance the federal budget? bill and i -- not dictator, but pledging to submit a balanced budget to congress over the first 100 days. the reason to balance the federal budget is for future generations. my generation has screwed it up

for those that are young and we have got to fix it. to balance the federal budget, that is about the future. that is about dealing with the entitlements -- medicaid and medicare. neither donald trump nor hillary clinton say they are going to do anything regarding either of them other than hillary saying she is going to expand them. the only way we're going to fix medicare and medicaid is to devolve those functions to the state, 50 laboratories of innovation and best practice, where there would be fabulous innovation that would get emulated, and i believe in my heart of hearts, having been governor of new mexico, if the federal government would have granted the state of new mexico a fixed amount of money less for

medicaid, then i could have to pass a eligibility safety net, and save that amount of money. the only way we could have saved medicare is to do the same thing, something that is currently the federal government, but devolve that to the state. washington is incapable of one-size-fits-all. we cannot dig our heads in the sand either about social security. it is headed to insolvency. we have to address social security. it's not about cutting social security, but it is about reforming it so that it will be around for future generations, and that means raising the retirement age for one thing. you could have a very fair means testing when it comes to social security. should you get back more money than what you paid in, given a certain level of income? like i said, i think there could be a very, very fair means of testing. and you cannot cut the federal government by 20% if you are not going to cut military by 20%. [applause]

gary johnson: and that is not compromising the military. we need to have an invincible national defense. we have to maintain military superiority, but the pentagon itself in the mid-1990's advocated that 25% of bases could be closed, but there has not been the political will to do that. bill weld and myself, neither of us have served in any other political capacity other than governors of our state. we did not know the sacred cows existed. it was coming in and really starting over from scratch, creating budgets that actually accomplished things and scrapping things that didn't. when it comes to the military, why is it that we always add and

add and we never reevaluate because there is much excess in the federal government? immigration -- we should be embracing immigration in this country. we are a country of immigrants. [applause] gary johnson: the wharton school of business -- that's where donald trump got his degree, wasn't it? the wharton school of business did publish three weeks ago in "the wall street journal" the economic impact of restricting immigration. it was going to have a negative impact on our economy. they analyzed allowing more high skilled workers into our country. the impact was going to be very

positive to our economy. the last scenario was increasing immigration dramatically, which would have a very overwhelming positive impact on our economy. i am speaking as a border state governor. the deportation of 11 million undocumented workers is based in untruth and misunderstanding completely. they are not taking jobs that u.s. citizens want. they are hard-working. they are the cream of the crop when it comes to workers. statistically, they commit less crime than u.s. citizens. you know, donald trump was watching the olympics very closely. how high do the mexican pole vaulters go? [laughter] gary johnson: he is talking about how he will make sure there are no tunnels underneath. look, these are hard-working individuals. if you or i were in the same position, which was that there are jobs across the border that

u.s. citizens don't want, i want to take care of my family, but i cannot get across the border to take these jobs because there is no line at all to actually be able to cross legally. we should just make it as easy as possible for somebody that cannot get across the border to wants to get into this country and work to be able to get a work visa. and a work visa should entail -- [applause] gary johnson: should entail a background check and a social security card that taxes get paid. i do believe in free market. free markets is devoid of government interference. crony capitalism is government getting involved, picking winners and losers. unfortunately i think that the majority of americans have come to associate crony capitalism and free market as one and the same when in fact they are opposite.

hillary clinton, with this pay to play thing, for the longest time i was wondering about bill clinton and the fact that he was getting these enormous speaking fees. i always thought that was payola for him having been president, when to find out over the last couple weeks, these were really speaking fees that were tied to contracts that were literally signed the next day by hillary as secretary of state to grant preference in countries and i , speak to haiti specifically. look, this is not right.contracy this is not ethical. term limits -- i do believe that term limits is a silver bullet. [applause] gary johnson: if we had term limits, i think we would do the right thing as opposed to whatever it takes to get reelected.

if we had term limits today, we would not have a $20 trillion national debt. i said earlier we are not getting elected king. we are not getting elected dictator. if i could wave a magic wand regarding tax policy, i would abolish income tax. i would abolish corporate tax and i would replace it with one federal consumption tax. by the way, who pays for corporate tax? we pay for corporate tax. let's not kid ourselves. with zero corporate tax, tens of millions of jobs would get created in this country for no other reason than zero corporate tax. i believe that 80% of washington lobbyists would get issued pink slips because that is why they are there, to garner tax favors. [applause]

gary johnson: what is needed when it comes to health care? by the way, president obama's affordable health care act -- i have to agree with chief justice roberts that it is a tax. my health insurance premiums have quadrupled and i've not seen a doctor in three years. it is a tax. what do we need to reform health care in this country? what we need to reform health care in this country is a genuine free-market approach to health care. something that, by the way, is about as far removed as it possibly can be from free market currently. if we had a free market for health care, you and i would not have insurance to cover for -- cover ourselves for ongoing medical needs. we would have insurance to cover

catastrophic injury and illness and we would pay as we go in a system that would be very, very affordable. how affordable? my guess, 1/5 of what it currently costs. we would have advertised pricing. we would have advertised outcomes. we would have gallbladders 'r us. we would have stitches 'r us. we would have x-rays 'r us. it would be very, very competitive and government can play a role in really bring about competition. wellness to our health care system as opposed to dealing with the end result. right now when we go to a doctor, we have no idea what it's going to cost. the person at the desk has no idea what it's going to cost. when we get the -- [no audio]

>> you can't silence gary! >> let gary speak! let gary speak! let gary speak! [crowd chanting] gary johnson: oh, there we go. [applause] gary johnson: so health care. [laughter] gary johnson: we have no idea what it's going to cost. when we get the bill, we know that nobody is actually going to pay that bill, right? libertarians always coming down on the side of choice.

that you and i as individuals should be able to make choices in our lives that are going to affect our lives as long as those choices don't adversely affect others. as governor of new mexico, i was more outspoken than any other governor in the country regarding school choice, that we should bring competition to public education. in my opinion, if we could unleash a million educational entrepreneurs on our educational system, i think it would have profound dramatic impact on our educational system. [applause] gary johnson: but what is the one thing that the federal government could do to improve on education? it would be to abolish the federal department of education.

[applause] gary johnson: and it is all a dollars and cents things. i think we think that the department of education was established under george washington. it was established under jimmy carter. the federal department of education -- iowa gives washington $.13. it is your money. you give washington $.13. bureaucratic washington dry cycle and iowa gets back $.11. how do you like that trade? then when they give you back the $.11, they tell you that you have to do a, b, c, and d to get your $.11 and it cost $.15 to accomplish $.11. why doesn't iowa just keep the cents in the first place and apply it to the classroom? more money in the classroom and

i daresay that decisions are always best at the local level. decisions are always best when you and i are making those decisions. [applause] gary johnson: so there are a couple of other agencies that come to mind. one is the department of commerce. i think that is all about crony capitalism, although there is intellectual rights and copyrights in the department of commerce. i do not know if that requires an entire agency. there's also housing and urban development, which has completely outlived its usefulness. homeland security? why do we have homeland security in this country? wasn't that the fbi? couldn't that be folded in? homeland security vehicles on the road, you have to see a few of them these days. what in the hell do they do? i have no idea. do you? do you have any idea what they do?

i don't. [laughter] gary johnson: personal choice. marriage equality -- supporting marriage equality. i know that iowa really took the lead on all that. [applause] gary johnson: how can there be a more difficult decision in anyone's life other than abortion? when i say anyone's life, i'm talking about the woman involved in her decision-making. who but that woman involved should be making that choice other than the woman involved? marijuana -- let's legalize marijuana in this country. [applause] gary johnson: there are tens of millions of americans who are convicted felons that but for our drug laws would otherwise be tax paying, law-abiding citizens.

we have the highest incarceration rate of any country in the world and i refuse to believe that we are any less law-abiding in this country. it has to do with our drug laws and mandatory minimums. the main category of prisoner in federal prison today is the individual who has sold small amounts of drugs on numerous occasions and been caught. let's bring an end to the war on drugs. [applause] gary johnson: let's first and foremost recognize drugs as a health problem, not a criminal justice problem. [applause] gary johnson: let me say this -- all lives matter. all lives matter. but black lives matter and

here's why. blacks are being shot at six times the rate than if you are white. if you are of color, there is a four times more likelihood that if you are arrested, it there is a better chance you are going to end up in jail than if you are white. we have had our heads in the sand over this issue. i count myself as the first one to have my head in the sand over this issue. we have to come to terms with this. we have to recognize that there is discrimination that exists and we have to end this discrimination in our country. [applause] mr. johnson: i absolutely support the second amendment to the constitution, our ability to own firearms. [applause] mr. johnson: but we should be

open to a debate on how we keep debates and discussion on how we keep firearms out of the hands of the mentally ill. we should also be open to a discussion and debate on how we keep guns out of the hands of would-be terrorists. as president of the united states, i would love to know what transpired between the fbi and the shooter in orlando. obviously the system worked up to a certain point, but then it broke down. i bet the fbi has some real suggestions on how we might move forward on that issue. the death penalty -- i've been asked many times, did you ever change your mind on a major issue? i changed my mind on the death penalty and here's the reason why. it costs more money to keep a person on death row or to sentence a person to death row then it does to lock themselves up for the rest of their lives because of the appeals that go along with being on death row.

when you find out that someone is released because they are categorically proven to be innocent, what value can you put on attorney fees associated with that? that value is limitless. there is estimated to be up to a 4% error rate in the death penalty. i don't know about you, but i do not want to punish one innocent person to punish 999 that are guilty, much less put to death for 96 that are guilty. when i was governor of new mexico, governor ryan of illinois ordered a review of 36 inmates on death row. over 20 of them were released because they were categorically shown to be innocent because of because of dna testing. as public policy, the death penalty is flawed. [applause]

there was a poll among active military personnel three weeks ago on who they favored for president of the united states. to allway, thank you veterans, thank you to everyone who have served this country. [applause] we have a debt to all of you. everyone of you. [applause] in that poll of active military personnel, i want. -- i won. [applause] i would like you think it is based on what i'm saying which is let's have judicious use of our military. if we are attacked, we are going to attack back. invincibleave an national defense. we should demonstrate military superiority but when we involve

ourselves in regime change, it results in a less safe world. in my lifetime, i cannot think of one instance where we inject ourselves in a civil war and it turns out the better. we have regime change in iraq. we wipe out al qaeda. saddam hussein is gone. now we have a void that is created and as of two years ago, we never heard of isis but a long they come to fill the void. syria.n libya and this is not intentional. this is for the clinton and barack obama. they supported regime change in both of those countries. syria, libya. they went in and supported the opposition in both of those countries. the opposition, not directly allied with isis, both isis and

the opposition were against the existing regime. we armed the opposition. the opposition got beaten. all the arms ended up in isis hands. this is what we are dealing with now. the biggest threat in the world right now is north korea. pointct that at some these intercontinental ballistic missiles are going to work. the cap 40,000 troops in south korea. -- we have 40,000 troops in south korea. if you're thinking we have 40,000 troops in south korea because they want to protect against invasion from north korea, there is zero chance of south korea getting conventionally invaded by north korea. they have their own forces to with stand that. if you are talking about them lobby nuclear weapons, we have been covered with our nuclear

umbrella. that is the threat. it is a real threat. do we really want to go to nuclear war with nuclear war? the way that we do with this -- deal with this is to join hands diplomatically with china. they understand the threat. in syria, the solution to syria is joining with russia diplomatically to bring an end to that. has life ever been better in this country? we get along with one another better. we communicate better. our kids are smarter than ever. we have issues, but we have unbelievable opportunity. we are citizens of the greatest country on the earth. yes, we have issues but we are going to deal with these issues. the future looks unbelievably

promising. [applause] as president of the united states, i'm also promising you that i'm going to be the most frugal president that is ever occupied that space of anyone you have seen. [applause] you have to lead by example. the fact that the president of the united states sends tens of millions of dollars to go down to walgreens because of a security -- the security involved in that goes into large cities and the stars traffic everywhere -- snarls traffic everywhere he or she may go. that is something that needs to come to an end. bill weld and myself are promising to be very good stewards of this office. that starts with setting an example for spending and the

government and the role that government should play. [applause] there is no chance that i have of getting elected president without being in the presidential debates. the presidential debate commission has said you have to be at 15% in the polls to be in the presidential debate. i have no issue with the 15%. here is the issue, is there is not one single pole being conducted today for my name is in the top line. my name is in 50% of the polls and it is the third or fourth question down. 99% of the media just reports the top line so that about 70% of america only things -- they don't even know i exist.

we are the only third-party candidate on the ballot in all 50 states. [applause] i want to ask all of you a favor and that is to push out what it is we do from a social media standpoint. we had a rally in vermont. we had a rally last night in milwaukee. there was a turnout that was terrific. it was as terrific as right here, right now. endedhe time that rally until now, there have been more than 3 million people that have viewed that rally on social media. [applause] this is very real. this is very real.

the possibility exists to run the table on the selection. and for all the right reasons. you have to hear it all the time. you're going to waste your vote? the comeback is, wasting your vote is promoting -- voting for someone you don't believe in. [applause] to each and every one of you, you rock. i can't believe that you are here on a saturday afternoon, but you are here. thank you very much. let's make a difference in this election. [applause] thank you. [applause]

[indiscernible]

>> i'm not doing this in a void, the staff, free market guys, cato institute, all of them say tpp is a big improvement that reduces hundreds of tariffs. >> how can we trust them? their whole thing is, all or nothing. then have president obama who wants to fast-track it. rub as far as i can see is wrong. it does dramatically improve trade and -- >> i'm all for free trade. [indiscernible] >> protecting intellectual

property. that is a big component. >> on an international board. >> ultimately protect u.s. interests. this is the overwhelming consensus of free-market guys. >> i dollars in how they can do it in secrecy -- i don't understand how they can do it into secrecy. internet restriction. all of the stuff into something that should be a trade agreement. no amendment should be made.

i don't mean to take up all your time. good luck with everything. gov. johnson: thank you. we are going to get you to the debate. gov. johnson: thank you. >> i'm 11. i'm the biggest gary johnson fan. say, we are taken to pop culture and we believe that you are going to be the best. gov. johnson: you're the best. let's take a picture. thank you. >> gary, can i get your picture? you're the only one who understands the constitution. >> thank you so much.

gov. johnson: there you go. >> thank you! gov. johnson: thank you. >> one johnson to another. gov. johnson: very good. thank you so much for being here. i really appreciate it. >> can i get a picture? gov. johnson: yes, let's do it. [laughter] thank you. thank you. >> it is an honor.

thank you for being here. thank you.n: thank you for being here. i really thank you for being here. >> love you gary! my first time voting and i just registered libertarians is here. can you send my card. ? sign it anywhere. thank you so much. >> it is a bad marker. she might have a better one. thank you.n:

there you go. >> can i get a picture of you? gov. johnson: do it. thank you for being here. thank you so much for being here. >> i'm a pharmacy student. i was wondering if you have any opinion on -- gov. johnson: there is an example of, doesn't that make sense? >> i feel it does. most of my colleagues think it does. take pressure off of medical staff. gov. johnson: and you understand the drugs and what they do. legislation that passes that identify somebody from -- keep

someone from doing that, i make that choice as a consumer and save a whole lot of money. trainedacists are being regarding what we are allowed to do. gov. johnson: a great example of what i'm talking about. a genuine free-market approach, more competition, that would be a. for the last several years, those have been going through. gov. johnson: i know all the reasons it keeps getting stopped. i saw that firsthand. >> there is an overburdened for doctors in the medical staff as it is. gov. johnson: we are on the same page. >> taking pressure off the doctors. gov. johnson: we will work on it. thank you.

[indiscernible] gov. johnson: thank you. >> a couple of the things if we have time. the blue and orange one. this will do. thank you. >> thank you so much. gov. johnson: you are so welcome. >> you are off to a great start. >> thank you. i remember you talking on shows

on how to times you beat a tax increases, 400 times. gov. johnson: 750. >> i knew it was some astronomical amount. >> thank you so much. gov. johnson: you have been my afternoon. thank you for that. >> would you sign this?

could i borrow that pen from you ma'am? thank you so much. it is truly an honor. >> where you going after this, governor? gov. johnson: back to new mexico. hawkeyesis the i will -- iowa hawkeyes and [indiscernible] everybody is there. >> this will go on my page. thank you very much. gov. johnson: thank you very much. be -- [indiscernible]

gov. johnson: here is the criteria. the president is not the siding does. this is republicans and democrats. the real change -- rule change should be that anybody who could mathematically get 270 electoral votes should at a minimum be in the poll. in 2005, that would have included the green party and the libertarian party. right now, it would also include the green and the libertarian party. as being capable of actually being elected. >> do you think the libertarians could be involved in that? gov. johnson: yes. it is so hard to get on the ballot. it is like impossible.