>> mr. president, and the first it ismy american friends, an incredible honor. it is incredible to be here with you on this occasion of the last state dinner of president obama. i am really excited. moment this is a special for the history of this country, as the presidency of president obama was a special moment in the life of this great country. so thank you so much. thank you. [applause] is also an honor for us. thank you for the welcome. i'm in a difficult situation. it is impossible for me to reply after president obama, this

said -- it is impossible. can organize after the finish of your service, a dinner in florence. and we can prepare italian ice cream. the best in the world. fth floor and tying -- tuscan wine. and we can see if the tomatoes from the white house garden are better than our tomatoes.

i know, michelle, your tomatoes are great. after the last week, let me be very frank. your speeches are better than your tomatoes. thank you so much. [applause] as prime so much minister and also the father of a young daughter. you know i am a huge fan of you. your first speech for the presidential run in february, 2007. but when i heard the speech of michelle in philadelphia, i i told, finally, maybe, someone -- michelle

obama. this is good. [applause] but let me conclude with a personal consideration. i love a lot of the history of my country. during the renaissance in students masters and worked together for years to produce masterpieces. the goal is a masterpiece. endured for have the centuries. -- a place where the masters and students try to do better.

a new generation has a comprehensive vision of the future. this is mr. president, what you have done for us in this. period.is eight years is important for the international community, not just the united states of america. your service was the service of a master of the renaissance. he worked with us to give us an opportunity. we worked together exactly with the spirit. try to make better. give a special opportunity to a new generation. rentine, i think i

am very grateful to you for your service. new your message, a lot of --ders around the world thank you so much for that, mr. president. thank you, master of renaissance. in italy there is an expression. it is an expression that comes a particular moment in the dinner or lunch. that comes from latin. wheat, bread. from these, a lot of things.

the values of the table are of sharing. not only bread, wine, food, but sharing a friendship. i think this is the real relation between the united states of america and italy. we share the same values, the same friendship. yes, on the table, we share the bread. we share all of the wine. we share above all the future and the common values. for this reason, i propose a toast to president obama. to first lady michelle. thank you so much for your journey, your incredible service. for the values you inspire. not only the united states of america but around the world. thank you, president.

live where the final presidential debate will take place tonight. plenty are here for pre-coverage, and after as well. we will begin at 7:30 p.m. eastern. all kinds of interviews going on. the university of nevada las vegas has some 54 and visitors visitors taking part in a study in presidential debates, overseeing tonight's debate at unlv. [chatter]

>> chris wallace of fox news moderating the debate. the topics of tonight, debt and entitlements, immigration, foreign hotspots, the supreme court, and fitness to be president. our coverage beginning at 7:30 p.m. eastern. questions about health care. the health and human services secretary talked about the fourth year of obamacare enrollment, talking about expectations in the upcoming

season, expected to grow next year, but not much. . what she has to say. >> we look to this new open enrollment period. we project the marketplace will grow by another one million people. by the end of 2017 we expect 13.8 million people to have selected a plan. we know it won't be easy, but we are confident that americans will choose to enroll when they discover the quality affordable options available to them. in closing, as the president said the date, we did not come to fear the future, we came to shape it. the affordable care act has helped to shape a better future. >> when you grew up in an environment like i did, you meet people that play a heroic role in your life. luckily i had that. i had my aunt and sister. this is how the story of how the impacted my life in positive ways. q&a" j.d. night on "

dance talks about growing up in court appalachia -- poor app alachia. j.d.: even the people that did well in school did not make a whole lot out of themselves. you saw people not really making or having good opportunities. it was hard to believe that school matter that much. >> sunday night at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span's "q&a." >> now a debate for maine's second congressional district between bruce poliquin and emily ann cain, speaking about campaign finance and gun control. main public broadcasting is hosting a debate. this is about one hour. ♪

secondelcome to maine's district congressional debate. andincumbent bruce poliquin has garneredbate national attention. first, background on the two candidates in alphabetical order. maine frommoved to new jersey with her family at 17, studied at the music at the university of maine and holds a masters degree from the harvard graduate school of education. in 2004 she was elected to the maine house and rose to the chair of the appropriations committee, then minority leader in 2010. she served in the maine senate and work for a decade at u maine. 2 years ago she lost to bruce poliquin in the second district.

bruce poliquin was born in waterville and started politics at harvard, made a career in adjustment antigens -- adjustment management. he has returned to maine in the real estate business. after losing a bid for governor in 2010, he rent as straight -- he ran as state treasurer. thanks for being here. emily, why are you the best candidate to serve maine's second congressional district? ms. cain: thanks so much. i am happy about having this opportunity about this choice voters have been november. my background is one i am proud of. i served as appropriations chair serving difficult budgets in recession. i worked across the aisle to bring about the largest tax cut in maine's history to lower energy costs and bring good jobs back across maine.

that is what this election is about, putting mainers attack in charge of our economy. a lot of people note my legislative background, but not that my dad is a shoe salesman and that my mom is a sign language interpreter. i learned about good jobs, hard work, and getting through tough times watching my parents. they worked hard to manage the ups and downs of the economy, sometimes forced to move in difficult situations. i am proud that i learned from them the value of hard work, stating at it time and time again. that is what i did in augusta, and what i want to do in congress. the problem is that we don't have a congress that is looking out for us. we have a congressman that is part of the problem, who is out for himself and the wall street funders. this election is about who will have your back and can fight for you effectively. i am ready to do that and put my work into congress. thanks for having me.

host: bruce poliquin, why are you the best candidate to serve the second district? mr. poliquin: first of all, i think it's really important to have someone like me who grew up in maine. i was born and raised here. my mom and dad and my grandma rents are also from central maine. if you share the values of the people you represent, it's reported to -- it is important that you understand the community you are representing. geeky issue before -- the key issue in our state and district is jobs. soneed better paying jobs that our kids can stay here rather than go out of state. my whole career until several years ago until i got involved in public life has been to create jobs. i understand how the economy works. i understand how to create jobs.

it is something that i was doing until i became strangers were. emily says i am out for myself. first of all, i sleep in my office on a pullout bed. i come back every weekend to stay connected to those that i work for. i refused the cadillac health care plan provided to members of congress. i have my own health care plan that i've been paying for for quite some time. i have refused the savings plan offered to members of congress. i have had a career that is a great one. i have a wonderful son who is 26 years old. mom and dad are doing great. this is their time to give back. i am giving job skills to congress. we have too many career politicians as you mentioned. emily grew up in new jersey and has been running for political office for a dozen years ever since. there are political skills.

we need job creation skills in washington. we have too much bickering and fighting. that comes with career politicians doing anything to get elected. i am a business guy. opiater: maine's epidemic is worsening. deaths are up 31% in one year. what can be done about this epidemic, what is the role of congress, and what would you do as a representative about it? mr. poliquin: this is personal to our family, jennifer. we don't with this for 35 years with my brother. a great guy with a big heart. and one heck of a musician by the way. he got wrapped up in this stuff and is no longer with us. i understand this issue will. we are doing everything possible at the federal level in the state of maine. this is all hands on deck --

federal, state, and local. we cannot give up on these young adults. and in cases, aunts and uncles and parents. we cannot give up on them. they don't want to be addicted, but they are trapped in this poison. if someone has a problem with addiction, you've got to go and tell someone. don't be embarrassed or ashamed, go and tell someone. we need to make sure we have plenty of beds for folks recovering. and once they recover, we need to hold these individuals accountable for healthy behavior. some of the wonderful experiences i've had in a couple years is meeting with recovering addicts. it's very hard on them. it's incredibly hard on their families, but the rewards are tremendous if they get better. jennifer: who pays for those beds? mr. poliquin: we have voted for extended funding at the federal

level so that states have additional resources to deal with this. this will be done at the local level. the federal government can be involved to make our borders secure. 98% of this poison, heroin, is coming from the mexican border. that is why we need to repeatedly secure our borders. funding comes from the state and federal level, and that is what we have done. jennifer: what can congress 22 tem stemcongress tdo the opioid epidemic? ms. cain: there are too many families hurt, too many businesses unsettled by workers dealing with addiction and need help. i believe we need treatment, education, and enforcement. treatment, because addiction is a disease, and people need help when they are sick. we need education to break the stigma so those that get sober

can get back to work and get back to living a full life. and we need enforcement. we need our law enforcement officials with the resources they need to crack down on those that would sell drugs interstate. it has to be in all of the above situation. and there should be no partisan disagreement on this. this is everybody's publication to date in -- everybody's publication to dig in and help. the full request in funding is over $100 billion. i hope we can find it all the way through. , wee don't take action don't get our treatment professionals and communities the support they need, and it will get worse. i am ready to partner with democrats and anyone ready to work with taking on this terrible crisis across our state. jennifer: during the campaign season, each of you has been both the beneficiary and the victim of a lot of advertising

funded by so-called super pac money. given that, do you think the campaign finance system needs reform? ms. cain: the problem is all the secret big-money and politics. it is terrible. whether it is negative ads, you can't see where it comes from. the congressman and i fundamentally disagree. i believe in transparency. i think those making contributions to super pac's need to revealed her donors. we need to overturn citizens united, which is taken the voice away from people. i am proud that in my campaign, more than 3500 mainers have made personal contributions. my people funded campaign is what allows me to reach out to so many across the state. by contrast, the congressman voted to say those big organizations to stay secret.

foreign money could potentially be coming into our state and speaking louder than the voice of the maine people. that is wrong. it is time to put people back in charge of the political system and get this dark secret money out of the way. jennifer: bruce poliquin, do you believe the campaign finance system needs reform, and what should change? mr. poliquin: this is horrendous. we have seen millions of dollars pour into our state with these super pac funds. them are five or six of that are falsely criticizing me, attacking me for my career and voting record. let me give you an example. there is a super pac called "end citizens united." ne andave come up to mai spent hundreds of thousands of dollars attacking me. their stated purpose is to get

money out of politics. here is another example. there is an out-of-state group that claims to be someone from maine saying that it voted to cut $1 billion from ea. emily has parroted that falsehood. i voted to increase funding to the va by $4.3 billion. inre is a big difference voting to cut and voting to increase, to make sure our veterans get the health care they need. people are sick and tired of this jennifer. and they are turning it off. jennifer: how do we change it? mr. poliquin: i absolutely believe in complete transparency. importanting that is is that this campaign has been going on forever. emily has been campaigning for this office for almost 2 years. agon election 2 november's

in 2014. shehree or four months, started campaigning again. that is the difference. i started hiring people. we don't need more career politicians that just follow super pac lines to attack me. ms. cain: if i can respond, it's interesting when you mention these out of straight -- out-of-state politicians, it distracts that i have a strong record when it comes to doing things that is right for the maine people. got ahe state of maine terrible grade for ethics and transparency in government, i partnered with governor lepage and we improved transparency in maine state government. and the congressman did vote for a va budget that is $1 billion short of what the request was. short paying our va five $1

billion. that is not ok. -- by $1 billion. my record is clear. my constituents want to see the driver seat put back in their hands. instead we have a congressman that is one of the top recipients of wall street campaign money and the entire congress. that means more than a lot of representatives from new york or california. that is shocking. that raises the question about who our congressman is looking out for. time and time again, his voting record voting to loosen revelations on wall street, giving tax breaks to those at the top and leaving middle-class and working families behind. mr. poliquin: that is a great set of talking points emily. i hope everybody in the state of maine is listening to this. you just heard someone that said cut, then said phil short of

funding. -- fell short of funding. that is the kind of double talk we're talking about in washington. if you increase by 4.3 billion dollars, that is an increase. it is congress's job to do that. what is happening is interesting. i want to talk about how i can help maine families, what i can do to help our second district. i don't believe in emily cain's idea to impose a huge new tax on carbon. here is why. when you tax carbon, you drive up the price of energy and electricity. one of the reading -- one of the main reasons of these problems is the high cost of electricity. when they make things down at the end of the, it runs an enormous amount of ocean city.

--of electricity. emily's plan would kill manufacturing jobs. would drive up the cost of oil. we have very cold winters here. it raises the cost of gasoline and diesel. that will fuel -- will kill jobs. jennifer: emily, i will let you respond to that. do you support a carbon tax, and what other subsidies or plans would you have to change maine's energy future? ms. cain: let's start with the facts. no one wants to increase the cost of energy. in the legislature i worked hard to work across the aisle with republicans and governor lepage to expand access to natural gas. this is something i take personally. i was at the lincoln mill that they reopened the gas line to keep it going.

i was there the night after the boiler exploded and hundreds of maine workers lost their jobs. energy costs need to come down. that is why i have been pushing solar, biomass, why we need to focus on the renewable energy sources we have in maine. part of the puzzle -- that is one part of the puzzle in creating good jobs. resources our natural and that we can put our charles in charge of that energy future, expanding access to natural gas and keeping the cost of energy down, including helping those with water homes winterize their homes. i had someone to date with --i met someone that struggled to keep their house in the winter. this is about how we can our energy and how we use. even companies like exxon mobil say we have to change about how

we think about energy. as a country, that is where we are as a state. this can be part of how we grow good jobs. i want to touch back on taxes. i want to close the loop on that. i am happy to talk about taxes on day long. my record is clear. i was part of negotiating the largest tax cut in maine's history. the congressman was paying his own taxes late 41 times, including as a state treasurer and member of congress. he has made headlines for years because he avoided paying thousands of dollars in taxes because of a tax loophole. these are not the kind of leadership we need when it comes to paying our taxes. my record of lowering taxes through bipartisan work is the kind of leadership we need in contrast. jennifer: active energy, do you support any kind of subsidy for solar, biomass, wind? mr. poliquin: i believe we need

to have all forms of energy in her portfolio and it needs to be lower. let's go back to this, because we just heard a whopper. let me tell you on the camera the flat-out truth -- i always paid all my taxes in full, al ways. the reason why emily cain wants to give it on something personal that i take seriously is because her record on taxes is one of hurting our families. she just said -- i think she skipped over it --lowering the price of electricity by building a huge national carbon tax. that drives up the cost of electricity. we just went over that. she just helped to push through several years ago a new sales tax, or the main sales tax on 102 items that had never been taxed before.

haircuts, trips to the beauty me jennifer.use 2009.k it was it was so onerous on the poorest to pay this new sales tax on 102 recededs, that it was in a people's referendum in 2010. in addition she talks about working with the governor to implement tax cuts. she worked as hard as she could those income tax cuts. i was a state treasurer at the state -- at the same time. once they were passed, she said, i hate those. those income taxes remove thousands of the poorest mama from paying state income tax. we need to help our families, not hurt them. lower taxes and lower energy

costs for everyone, especially the working poor so they can keep more of their own money and are businesses can grow and create on jobs. emily cain has zero experience running the economy, zero crating jobs. when she was in the state she voted 70% of the time against maine businesses on workers. who was scored by the nfib endorsed me, a nonpartisan group. ms. cain: i want to get-- jennifer: are you saying you did not put any of your land and a tree growth tax abatement program? mr. poliquin: what i'm saying is that i have paid every single tax i've owned always, and in full. jennifer: but was it a lower tax because you took advantage of program?

mr. poliquin: i am in the real estate business. when i get a tax bill, i scrutinize it. my business manager does it with me. the property is taxed in different ways depending on the parcel that it is. this just happens to be a parcel --there are other parcels that are not. i paid every dollar i owed in taxes always. i will tell you the issues when it comes to taxes. it's not individual attacks levied against me. i have paid sense is longer than emily has been alive. it is the taxes she has raised on hard-working families. she hated the tax cuts that were passed, and announced a huge new carbon tax. jennifer: emily cain. ms. cain: happy to respond to all of that. when you hear bruce mentioned my name, it is him trying to discount my experience. i am happy to have served the people of maine for a decade,

balancing budgets to do it. you should be proud of public service. that is why i am so proud. i think it is a cheap shot to talk about my age when really i come with more experience than anybody else in this race. i am proud to talk about my record on small business. a few years ago i earned a national award for supporting small business because i worked the aisle with then send it resident -- then senate president that has led to rural investment, including the mill in a legal -- in baileyville. when we talk about the 2011 budget, we have to talk about the facts and the timeline. that original budget proposed by governor was full of tax

cuts for the rich. it was full of throwing mainers under the bus on the health care program. i believe the best budgets are the ones that are bipartisan. i stayed at the table with my caucus, even as many members hated those tax cuts. my definition of success was a that lowerdget taxes. i fought to deliver the income tax and have been part of every bite artisan effort to do that. jennifer: we are going to move onto another issue. both of you criticize president obama's decision to use an executive order to designate a national monument in maine. now the national waters is a reality. what is the best path forward for the park and communities here in? communities ne it isar it?

ms. cain: no question that the monument was not enough of a guaranty. i will be holding a national parks service accountable, the department of interior accountable to make sure the promises made about hunting, fishing, snowmobiling and local accesses are kept. i am ready to work with local land to make sure that relationship is positive so we woods working. as a member of congress, i believe it is my job to keep altogether, state, local, as well as business and educational institutions. i heard a great story about a local bed-and-breakfast that has been full since august. that is a great sign, but it is not enough. we need a concentrated effort to build the info structure out so that we are -- so that our economy is not just about the monument, but a year-round economy where we make and grow jobs. to create good

the kind of jobs that used to be there at the mill. a good job is one where you earn enough money to pay your bills. you can own a house and have a car, pay for your kids to go to college, for retirement, and to maybe go on a vacation every once in a while. that is not too much to ask. that is my definition of success for the contact region. it is bringing those year-round good jobs. what is the best path forward for that region? mr. poliquin: we have to make sure local folks all involved in the management of land so that we have access to recreational hikinge snowmobiling and and hunting. we needed to support the career jobs by the focus. i object to any president having the sole authority to come to maine, stick a flag in the ground and say this is federal land, we own it.

i object to it and we need to make sure we protect those jobs. we need to local recreational jobs and work with everybody. that is why our recreational office has been very involved to make sure the management plans of the national park service protects those jobs. let me go back to one thing. emily mentioned her ability in that legislature to balance budgets. first of all you have a constitutional requirement to balance the budget by law. and she voted repeatedly to expand welfare. we ended up in a huge $500 million debt to our hospitals because the state did not pay them. that is a gimmick. since i have been in washington i have pushed a balanced budget amendment to our constitution. i have balanced the budget over time without raising taxes, president's budget

that jacks up spending, debt, and taxes. we need to make sure we grow an economy where our kids can stay here and have an opportunity. that means businesses need to be competitive. not a carbon tax. jennifer: emily, i want you to respond. ms. cain: 24 --in my balanced budget, we not only paid in full those hospital bills, something i personally worked on, stayed late nights and saw the sunrise from room to 28 in the state house to make sure we got it done. paying bills is important, making sure that those that need without get it sacrificing education or health care for seniors. the congress's version of a successful budget, last year the congressman says he was excited for a budget that cut social security, turned it into a

voucher program, -- that is not my definition of success when it comes to a balanced budget. what is is holding people accountable on public programs. i have been there to hold our welfare recipients accountable and to make sure those programs are working well for us. that way we can save money and put more people back to work. jennifer: we have to go to break. we will be right back after a 32nd break. -- a 30 second break. ♪ for more information about this lection go, to mainepublic.org /news. ou can get a schedule of televised debates here.

jennifer: and welcome back to the second district congressional debate between represent bruce poliquin and democrat emily ann cain. you would like to respond mr. poliquin: i certainly one. another falsehood, and a big one from emily. i have always voted to secure and protect social security and mowed care. the guarantees for those benefits are always there. that is the way i have voted and will continue to vote. my mom is 88, my dad is 86. they paid into these programs their entire likes. we have the oldest average age in the country. we need to make sure we secure these programs. if we could have some truth in that would be helpful. jennifer: i want to keep that

brief. that would be mr. poliquin: i would like to respond to a false accusation. she said i voted to cut pell grants. that is false. voted to extend pel grants and save them for the kids most in need. i was a scholarship student. for ubbed toilets to pay school. these are the things that have been coming up in this ampaign, which is unfortunate. jennifer: bruce, you opposed the affordable care act. what is your plan to provide health care for americans who did not have it? mr. poliquin: i was one of three republicans in the house do voted last year not to away with the affordable care act because there wasn't a replacement. i am a business person trying

to find solutions. now what we need to do, we need to keep what works and replace what doesn't. we now have a replacement plan. i took the experience from maine and other states, and i urbinaed for this and -- and i pushed for this and got it through. we need to keep our preexisting conditions. my son is an as matic. i think he should have an opportunity to buy an insurance policy that he can take from job to job. but at the same time we need to make sure we do away with pieces that kill jobs, like the 50 worker threshold or the 30-hour work week, both of which convince small businesses not to hire more. one thing that is important that is tied between medicare and the affordable care act, is emily ann cain has supported obama care since inception. in order to fund obama care,

there was $750 well cut from medicare in order to fund obama care. that is wrong. second of all, i do not believe in emily's position that we should have a complete 100% government take over of the health care industry. you have seen the premiums go through the roof, your co-pays, your deductibles. i have a health insurance policy that ib paying for years. my policy was canceled on september 15 from anthem and my premium went up 45%. all families have experienced the same thing. when you have a complete government take-over of our health insurance industry, which is what nancy pelosi and emily ann cain wants, you are going to see our premiums, co-pace and deductibles continue to go through the roof, and you get less coverage. jennifer: clearly it is imperfect. how would you fix it? ms. cain: it needs to be fixed.

i wonder which position he would take. he voted multiple times to repeal the affordable care act. that is tough because that is not what we need to do when it comes to preexisting conditions and the people who need help. there is no question it is broken. congress focusing on reappealing it. they want to do right by their employees, but they can't afford it. but it is a mays and challenging. the individuals who are following the rules trying to get their insurance on see their premiums go up. that brings us back to medicare. the congress prohibits medicare description of drugs by bringing the prices down. when i was in the senate, i learned that if you got cancer and you needed a certain type of description chemotherapy, an private insurance, they

wouldn't cover it, costing families thousands of months a month. that was wrong. after two years of bipartisan work, the legislature overwhelmingly passed parity so that those who needed oral chemotherapy could pay for this. we need someone ready to take on the insurance companies. i am so proud that just two years ago the national mmittee came to me and endorsed susan collins. they looked at the congressman's record and mine and endorsed me. that is the kind of champion that maine seniors need and businesses and individuals need. jennifer: emily ann cain has endorsed her party's nominee, hillary clinton. do you endorse your party's nominee for president, donald trump? mr. poliquin: this is something that you for example in the media has been consumed with, this media circus around the

presidential election. the people in the second district hired me to do a job and bring my skills to washington. that is exactly what i have done. i am not getting involved in this media frenzy. i know it upsets folks in the media because they live onion takes. jennifer: so your constituents are not asking you? mr. poliquin: my constituents are saying the follow. bruce, how can you help us build a stronger economy with more jobs. let me give you a job. we had a great victory last week that hasn't been reported widely. you may not have heard it. we convinced the european union to abandon their plan or their idea, thought process, about not allowing us to sell our lobsters in europe. this is a huge deal. we have 10,000 jobs on the water in maine, folks that drive or use their lobster boats. then there are thousands are

others who celibate, rope and traps. with angus king and shelly, i worked together with everybody in a bipartisan way, and we asked the university of maine to get involved. they provided terrific research, and we pushed against the united states trade representative in the white house, and we convinced the european union to drop their plan to not allow us to sell our lobsters. jennifer: but the question about donald trump, are you not going to state whether you are endorsing trump? mr. poliquin: here is why this is important. 25% of the lobsters we sell, we sell to europe. this is a big deal. i am trying to answer your question, jennifer. this is what the people of maine have hired me to do, to use my business experience to help, save and protect more jobs. i am not getting involved in this media frenzy. jennifer: so you are not going to say whether or not you endorse your party's candidate for president?

mr. poliquin: i can't control that. here is what i can control. more and stronger jobs, and a stronger economy. ms. cain: you know what is interesting? there is not always a lot in common when it comes to the governor, senator collins, sonnanstine poliquin, me. we disagree a lot. one thing we all agree on is that question you are asking about who you are supporting for president is not about confrontation and media circus. it is about telling the truth. it is about being clear and honest. it is not about whether we agree. it is about whether we can be trusted to speak up and tell the truth on fundamental questions about the direction of our country. jennifer:, emily ann cain, have you ever broken with your party on a significant issue? ms. cain: absolutely. several times. it started wie my work on the

2012 budget. where i stood as the democratic leader of my caucus, looking at the caucus and saying it's time for us to step up. it's time for us to make goods on all the times we talked about lowering the income tax. it is time to do it in a way that helps working families. i took heat in the press. i took heat from members of my own party. in the past when i ran in a democratic primary, that exact vote was thrown in my face, saying that i talked like a republican. i am always willing to take the slings and arrows when it comes to doing the right thing for, woulding families. that vote, that leadership that i was able to show, that steady principled leadership about doing the right thing was a very difficult time. it was a pretty terrible budget when it started. but in the end, that final vote was 147-3 in the house. that is the measure of success we need, but it took standing up to my own party to get there.

jennifer: bruce poliquin, have you ever broken with your party on significance issues, what issue and why? mr. poliquin: i do this all the time. i don't work for the lobbyist or wall street as emily likes to say. i work only for the 650,000 people i represent in our second district. here is an example. shortly after i got down to washington, i realized that the pentagon, the largest bureaucracy in world was not issuing 100% american made athletic shoes to men in women in uniform when they start basic training. this is wrong. you need to use u.s. tax payer dollars to by u.s. manufactured goods. it has to be a long-standing law. i worked with a democrat, a member of congress from massachusetts, and we worked together. we ushered a new bill through the house of representatives, never been done before, saying the pentagon must issue 100%

american made athletic shoes to n and women going into basic training. they are made in maine. 900 of the best shoe makers in the world work for new balance. jennifer: did you face opposition? mr. poliquin: are you kidding me? nike, the largest athletic shumacher in the world absolutely pushed against me. leadership pushed against me. once we got it through the armed services committee 65-0. i lobbied everybody, republicans and democrats to get it through. then i had to fight back a floor vote from a member of my own party, mark discovered. we won on the floor. the leadership in my party didn't want this done. but we did what was bright, and we secured 900 shoe making jobs at new balance. one more thing i might add, is that the senate took this

language, and senator king and others helped urbina other that through the senate. now we have passed the house first time ever, passed the senate. hopefully it will stay in the defense bill. the president will sign it, and then we have more security and more jobs. that is exactly what the people of maine hired me to do. jennifer: maine faces five initiatives. i want to hear your stance. we start with question one. mr. poliquin:, question one would legalize marijuana for recreational use. how do you intend to vote with that? mr. poliquin: we have had experience in our family with substance abuse for a long time. this is personal for me. i see how referendum the way it is worded might and problem for kids getting hold of pot if this goes through. i am joining fores with senator susan collins, and i am not going to tell the people of maine how to vote. we need to make sure we balance

our constitutional rights to consumer products that we want, and at the same time it is a public health issue. the people of maine are going to decide this. i am not going to tell the people how to vote. jennifer: are you going to say that about every question? mr. poliquin: let's go down the roll. ms. cain: i am voting no on question one. my focus is on breaking the aducks problem with in maine and more resources. two, votes a tion ax for incomes over 200,000. ms. cain: i vote yes. mr. poliquin: a 3% will put the state income rate to 10.15%,

second highest. we have a state, new hampshire, that has a zero% personal income tax rate. if that happens in maine, we have to make sure we think about this long and hard. people in maine will make this decision. jennifer: so you are not going to say you oppose it or support it? mr. poliquin: emily not going to tell the people of maine how to vote. jennifer: lou about question through on hand guns? mr. poliquin: my position is clear. i have been endorsed by the hunters of main and others. we need to make sure we understand that is one of our constitutional rights. at the same time we need to do everything humanly possible to keep choir arms out of hands of terrorists, criminals and those mentally ill. my position on this is very clear. jennifer: that you are opposed to it? mr. poliquin: i am not going to the people of maine how to

vote. jennifer: emily ann cain. question three would impose checks on choir arms sales. emily we have the right to bear arms. i have a lot of experience in, woulding with gun owners, the n.r.a. i am protecting privacy rights. we want to make sure we protect gun owners rights to keep and store their guns. i have worked with the sportsman alliance of maine and others to expand access to hunting, which is a key part of who better as a state. i am voting yes on question three. we need to do everything we can to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous criminals, those with mental illness and domestic abusers. jennifer: necessary question, change the officers for congress, governor and -- do you president rank choice

voting? ms. cain: i am voting yes. i don't think it is a perfect solution. there are a lot of other things we need to do, but ultimately i think question five gives more voice to people at the ballot boys. jennifer: i realize i skipped question four. bruce poliquin, the voting system, how would you do? mr. poliquin: this is a right. this is a very complicated issue, the way the process would take place. i encourage everybody to look at this carefully. i ask the people of maine, go vote. but i am not going to tell you what type of voting process is going to be passed. they can decide that. that is their job. jennifer: how about question four, which would raise the state's minimum wage to $12 an hour by 2020? mr. poliquin: i am focusing on career high-paying jobs. jobs in our manufacturing sector, on the waterfront and wood products area. that is what i am focusing on.

i am not consumed with this issue about not -- about forcing a specific wage on businesses. we need to make sure that we don't raise the labor costs in maine so it kills jobs. we need to make sure we protect entry level jobs, minimum wage jobs, and everybody wants a bigger paycheck. but we've got to do this by growing career jobs. that is what i am focused on. that is why i believe we cannot stand a huge new carbon tax that will drive up the cost of electricity and kyle manufacturing jocks. jennifer: but i asked you about the minimum wage. mr. poliquin: i am never going to tell the people of maine how to vote. that is share responsibility. jennifer: emily ann cain, how would you vote? ms. cain: i am voting yes on question four. i don't believe anyone who works full time should live in

poverty. we need to make it sustainable for small businesses, which is where we need to be growing the good jobs we have across the state. i hope it is clear to those watching at home and listening at home what the difference has been in last five questions. i have been straight with you. i have been up front and direct with you about where i stand because i think it is important to be truthful. it is important to be honest, and it is important to be direct. what you have heard from the congressman is a lot of political double talk on the last five questions. jennifer: we have about five minutes left, i am going to give each of you two minutes to talk about a very important question to both of you. maine's second district has seen hundreds of jobs due to the closure of police. what is your plan, emily ann cain, and i am going to give you about two minutes to answer, to help the towns and communities devastated about the job losses. bruce two minutes after that. ms. cain: there are no working mills now on the river. the people who worked in the lincoln mill and the old town mill are my friends.

my front roger worked at the mill for decades. he had to make a decision to either stay here and try to kolb it together or take a job out of state. it was a terrible decision for him. he wants to come back and work at home. it makes me think of a sheet metal worker i met. goes to work every monday morning but hand worked in maine in four years. he works out of state where they are building things. my dad used to leave every week for work. goes to he packed his bags on sunday night and leave monday morning. i was think background people like my dad who have worked harder than ever to try to do right by their families and beijing the good jobs back. my focus in congress will be to grow our economy by investing ours and natural resources. the best is hard working people. they just want to make ends meet. i am going to be focusing on forestry, fishing than aqua culture. on manufacturing so we can make

things here in maine that they are going to want all over the world. we do that by connectsing the dots, focusing on trance, internet access and cell phone service. if you are trying to run a small businesses and your cell phone drops, you are in trouble. my definition of success for an economy is an economy of small businesses owned by mainers so we can be in charge of our economy. we do that by lowering taxes, supporting economic develop and working across the aisle to make tough decisions. i am ready to work for you. not no wall street, not growing more jobs some place else. i am going to stand up to bad trade deals that send our jobs overseas. the maine people can count on me to be trusted with bringing those good job homes. jennifer: bruce poliquin, main's second district has seen hundreds of jobs lost to the closure of mills. what is your plan to towns and

communities? mr. poliquin: there are four or five things we have to do to make sure we bring these high paying career jobs back to maine. first of all we need business skills in washington, not career politicians who have no experience creating jobs. that is number one. second of all, we need to make sure we more the cost of energy. we need to -- this new carbon tax that emily is supporting is absolutely the wrong way to go. it will drive up the cost of electricity and kill more of our manufacturing jobs. we need to have lower energy costs. we need to make sure regulations are fair and predictable. at the paper business, 850 jobs. i made sure the biomass regulations weren't so punitive or cost them so much money that it would jeopardize the future investment of that mill. and we need to make sure that taxes are lower. if you talk to the folks that run these mills, it is high cost of energy, it is taxes, it is regulations.

and also by the way, unfair trade. that is why i have always stood up to make sure trade is fair. when i was a kid growing up, my grandmother worked at half way shirt company. my best buddy across the street, his dad was a machinist at scott paper company. i worked the night night shift at the wine dot in sydney. we have seen all these mills go under. the reason is because of this drip, drip, drip in maine. high energy costs, high taxes, punitive regulations and trade deals that aren't fair. i have the nothing and the experience to deal with those. emily ann cain does not. jennifer: i am going to take a page from the presidential debate and ask you to finish up. bruce poliquin, can you tell me what you admire about emily ann cain? mr. poliquin: she has made a decision to pursue a career in application. they went to university and after graduation she has been

campaigning for public office ever since. now that is not my career. my job has been in business hiring people and growing the economy. but that is her career. it is not what we need in maine or in washington, but i salute her for having that passion. jennifer: and emily ann cain? ms. cain: i admire bruce because's good dad. i haven't had a chance to meet sammy, but i know that bruce is a good father. let's be clear. let's talk about the fact when he talked about my background, that we move around, he is attacking my family. that is something i would never do to the congress man. i would never question his family and background. when he takes cheap shots, my parents had to move in order to find good jobs. it is not fair and right. working families across maine know that is disrespectful to the kind of work they do and the tough choices they have to make every day. bruce is a good dad. my dad was a good dad, too. but in order for him to make ends meet for us, we had to

move several times when i was a kid. i am proud of that. that is how i understand the tough choices maine families make every day. jennifer: well, this did he debate has been part of comprehensive coverage, your vote, 2016. sfering online at mainpublic.org, all the main stories, all the main callinging episodes and debates. emily ann cain and bruce poliquin, thank you for being here. this program will be repeated on maine public television and maine public radio several times between now and election day. r times and schedules, go to mainepublic/your vote. good night. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2016] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute]

>> watch c-span's live coverage of the third debate between hillary clinton and donald trump tonight. our live debate preview from the university of nevada-las vegas starts at 7:30 eastern. the briefing for the debate studio audience is at 8:00 p.m. eastern, and the debate at 9:00 p.m. eastern. stay with us following the debate for viewer reaction, including your calls, tweets and facebook postings. and watch the debate live on on demand using your desk top, c-span.org.let at download the app from the app store or google play. >> in 2004, president george w. bush and john kerry met for a

presidential debate at arizona state university in tempe. this was the final debate between the two candidates, in an election that president bush went on to win. it was moderated by bob schieffer of cbs news. it's an hur and a half. did not an hour uehara. bob: one minute.

bob: good evening. from arizona state university in tempe, arizona. i am bob schieffer of cbs news. i want to welcome you to third and last of the 2004 debates between president george bush and senator john kerry. as jim told you before the first one, these debates are sponsored by the commission on presidential debates. tonight the topic will be domestic affairs, but the format will be the same as that first debate. i will moderate our discussion under did he tailed rules

agreed to by the candidates. but the questions and the areas to be covered were chosen by me. i have not told the candidates or anyone else what they are. to refresh your memory on the rules, i will ask a question. the candidate is allowed two minutes to answer. his opponent then has a minute and a half to offer a rebuttal. at my discretion, i can extend the discussion by offering each candidate an additional 30 seconds. a green light will come on to signal 30 seconds left, a yellow light signals 159 seconds left, a red light means five seconds left. there is also a buzzer if it is needed. the candidates may not question each other directly. there are no opening statements, but there will be two-minute closing statements. there is an audience here tonight, but they have agreed to remain silent except for right now when they join me in welcoming president george bush and senator john kerry.

[cheers and applause] gentlemen, welcome to you both. by coin toss, the first question goes to senator kerry. senator, i want to set the stage for this discussion by asking the question that i think hangs over all of our politics today and is probably on the minds of many people watching this debate tonight. and that is, will our children and grandchildren ever live in a world as safe and secure as the world in which we grew up?

sen. kerry: well, first of all, bob, thank you for moderating tonight. thank you, arizona state, for welcoming us. and thank you to the presidential commission for undertaking this enormous task. we're proud to be here. mr. president, i'm glad to be here with you again to share similarities and differences with the american people. will we ever be safe and secure again? yes. we absolutely must be. that's the goal. now, how do we achieve it is the most critical component of it. i believe that this president, regrettably, rushed us into a war, made decisions about foreign policy, pushed alliances away. and, as a result, america is now bearing this extraordinary burden where we are not as safe as we ought to be. the measurement is not: are we safer? the measurement is: are we as safe as we ought to be? and there are a host of options that this president had available to him, like making

sure that at all our ports in america containers are inspected. only 95 percent of them -- 95 percent come in today uninspected. that's not good enough. people who fly on airplanes today, the cargo hold is not x-rayed, but the baggage is. that's not good enough. firehouses don't have enough firefighters in them. police officers are being cut from the streets of america because the president decided to cut the cops program. so we can do a better job of homeland security. i can do a better job of waging a smarter, more effective war on terror and guarantee that we will go after the terrorists. i will hunt them down, and we'll kill them, we'll capture them. we'll do whatever is necessary to be safe. but i pledge this to you, america: i will do it in the way that franklin roosevelt and ronald reagan and john kennedy and others did, where we build the strongest alliances, where the world joins together, where we have the best intelligence and where we are able, ultimately, to be more safe and secure. schieffer: mr. president, you have 90 seconds. pres. bush: bob, thank you very

much. i want to thank arizona state as well. yes, we can be safe and secure, if we stay on the offense against the terrorists and if we spread freedom and liberty around the world. i have got a comprehensive strategy to not only chase down the al qaida, wherever it exists -- and we're making progress; three-quarters of al qaida leaders have been brought to justice -- but to make sure that countries that harbor terrorists are held to account. as a result of securing ourselves and ridding the taliban out of afghanistan, the afghan people had elections this weekend. and the first voter was a 19-year-old woman. think about that. freedom is on the march. we held to account a terrorist regime in saddam hussein. in other words, in order to make sure we're secure, there must be a comprehensive plan. my opponent just this weekend talked about how terrorism could be reduced to a nuisance, comparing it to prostitution, illegal gambling.

i think that attitude and that point of view is dangerous. i don't think you can secure america for the long run if you don't have a comprehensive view as to how to defeat these people. at home, we'll do everything we can to protect the homeland. i signed the homeland security bill to better align our assets and resources. my opponent voted against it. we're doing everything we can to protect our borders and ports. but absolutely we can be secure in the long run. it just takes good, strong leadership. schieffer: anything to add, senator kerry? sen. kerry: yes. when the president had an opportunity to capture or kill osama bin laden, he took his focus off of them, outsourced the job to afghan warlords, and osama bin laden escaped. six months after he said osama bin laden must be caught dead or alive, this president was asked, "where is osama bin laden?" he said, "i don't know. i don't really think about him very much. i'm not that concerned." we need a president who stays deadly focused on the real war on terror. schieffer: mr. president? pres. bush: gosh, i just don't think i ever said i'm not

worried about osama bin laden. it's kind of one of those exaggerations. of course we're worried about osama bin laden. we're on the hunt after osama bin laden. we're using every asset at our disposal to get osama bin laden. my opponent said this war is a matter of intelligence and law enforcement. no, this war is a matter of using every asset at our disposal to keep the american people protected. schieffer: new question, mr. president, to you. we are talking about protecting ourselves from the unexpected, but the flu season is suddenly upon us. flu kills thousands of people every year. suddenly we find ourselves with a severe shortage of flu vaccine. how did that happen? pres. bush: bob, we relied upon a company out of england to provide about half of the flu vaccines for the united states citizen, and it turned out that the vaccine they were producing was contaminated.

and so we took the right action and didn't allow contaminated medicine into our country. we're working with canada to hopefully -- that they'll produce a -- help us realize the vaccine necessary to make sure our citizens have got flu vaccinations during this upcoming season. my call to our fellow americans is if you're healthy, if you're younger, don't get a flu shot this year. help us prioritize those who need to get the flu shot, the elderly and the young. the cdc, responsible for health in the united states, is setting those priorities and is allocating the flu vaccine accordingly. i haven't gotten a flu shot, and i don't intend to because i want to make sure those who are most vulnerable get treated. we have a problem with litigation in the united states of america. vaccine manufacturers are

worried about getting sued, and therefore they have backed off from providing this kind of vaccine. one of the reasons i'm such a strong believer in legal reform is so that people aren't afraid of producing a product that is necessary for the health of our citizens and then end up getting sued in a court of law. but the best thing we can do now, bob, given the circumstances with the company in england is for those of us who are younger and healthy, don't get a flu shot. schieffer: senator kerry? sen. kerry: this really underscores the problem with the american health-care system. it's not working for the american family. and it's gotten worse under president bush over the course of the last years. five million americans have lost their health insurance in this country. you've got about a million right here in arizona, just shy,

950,000, who have no health insurance at all. 82,000 arizonians lost their health insurance under president bush's watch. 223,000 kids in arizona have no health insurance at all. all across our country -- go to ohio, 1.4 million ohioans have no health insurance, 114,000 of them lost it under president bush; wisconsin, 82,000 wisconsinites lost it under president bush. this president has turned his back on the wellness of america. and there is no system. in fact, it's starting to fall apart not because of lawsuits -- though they are a problem, and john edwards and i are committed to fixing them -- but because of the larger issue that we don't cover americans. children across our country don't have health care. we're the richest country on the face of the planet, the only industrialized nation in the world not to do it. i have a plan to cover all americans.

we're going to make it affordable and accessible. we're going to let everybody buy into the same health-care plan senators and congressmen give themselves. schieffer: mr. president, would you like to add something? pres. bush: i would. thank you. i want to remind people listening tonight that a plan is not a litany of complaints, and a plan is not to lay out programs that you can't pay for. he just said he wants everybody to be able to buy in to the same plan that senators and congressmen get. that costs the government $7,700 per family. if every family in america signed up, like the senator suggested, if would cost us $5 trillion over 10 years. it's an empty promise. it's called bait and switch. schieffer: time's up. sen. kerry: actually, it's not an empty promise. it's really interesting, because the president used that very plan as a reason for seniors to accept his prescription drug plan. he said, if it's good enough for the congressmen and senators to have choice, seniors ought to have choice.

what we do is we have choice. i choose blue cross/blue shield. other senators, other congressmen choose other programs. but the fact is, we're going to help americans be able to buy into it. those that can afford it are going to buy in themselves. we're not giving this away for nothing. schieffer: all right. senator kerry, a new question. let's talk about economic security. you pledged during the last debate that you would not raise taxes on those making less than $200,000 a year but the price of everything is going up, and we all know it. health-care costs, as you are talking about, is skyrocketing, the cost of the war. my question is, how can you or any president, whoever is elected next time, keep that pledge without running this country deeper into debt and passing on more of the bills that we're running up to our children? sen. kerry: i'll tell you exactly how i can do it: by reinstating what president bush took away, which is called pay

as you go. during the 1990s, we had rules. if you were going to pass something in the congress, you had to show where you are going to pay for it and how. president bush has taken -- he's the only president in history to do this. he's also the only president in 72 years to lose jobs -- 1. 6 million jobs lost. he's the only president to have incomes of families go down for the last three years; the only president to see exports go down; the only president to see the lowest level of business investment in our country as it is today. now, i'm going to reverse that. i'm going to change that. we're going to restore the fiscal discipline we had in the 1990s. every plan that i have laid out -- my health-care plan, my plan for education, my plan for kids to be able to get better college loans -- i've shown exactly how i'm going to pay for those. and we start -- we don't do it exclusively -- but we start by rolling back george bush's unaffordable tax cut for the wealthiest people, people earning more than $200,000 a year, and we pass, hopefully, the mccain-kerry commission

which identified some $60 billion that we can get. we shut the loophole which has american workers actually subsidizing the loss of their own job. they just passed an expansion of that loophole in the last few days: $43 billion of giveaways, including favors to the oil and gas industry and the people importing ceiling fans from china. i'm going to stand up and fight for the american worker. and i am going to do it in a way that's fiscally sound. i show how i pay for the health care, how we pay for the education. i have a manufacturing jobs credit. we pay for it by shutting that loophole overseas. we raise the student loans. i pay for it by changing the relationship with the banks. this president has never once vetoed one bill; the first president in a hundred years not to do that. schieffer: mr. president? pres. bush: well, his rhetoric doesn't match his record. he been a senator for 20 years. he voted to increase taxes 98 times. when they tried to reduce taxes,

he voted against that 127 times. he talks about being a fiscal conservative, or fiscally sound, but he voted over -- he voted 277 times to waive the budget caps, which would have cost the taxpayers $4.2 trillion. he talks about paygo. i'll tell you what paygo means, when you're a senator from massachusetts, when you're a colleague of ted kennedy, pay go means: you pay, and he goes ahead and spends. he's proposed $2.2 trillion of new spending, and yet the so-called tax on the rich, which is also a tax on many small-business owners in america, raises $600 million by our account -- billion, $800 billion by his account. there is a tax gap. and guess who usually ends up filling the tax gap? the middle class. i propose a detailed budget,

bob. i sent up my budget man to the congress, and he says, here's how we're going to reduce the deficit in half by five years. it requires pro-growth policies that grow our economy and fiscal sanity in the halls of congress. schieffer: let's go to a new question, mr. president. two minutes. and let's continue on jobs. you know, there are all kind of statistics out there, but i want to bring it down to an individual. mr. president, what do you say to someone in this country who has lost his job to someone overseas who's being paid a fraction of what that job paid here in the united states? pres. bush: i'd say, bob, i've got policies to continue to grow our economy and create the jobs of the 21st century. and here's some help for you to go get an education. here's some help for you to go to a community college. we've expanded trade adjustment assistance. we want to help pay for you to gain the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st

century. you know, there's a lot of talk about how to keep the economy growing. we talk about fiscal matters. but perhaps the best way to keep jobs here in america and to keep this economy growing is to make sure our education system works. i went to washington to solve problems. and i saw a problem in the public education system in america. they were just shuffling too many kids through the system, year after year, grade after grade, without learning the basics. and so we said: let's raise the standards. we're spending more money, but let's raise the standards and measure early and solve problems now, before it's too late. no, education is how to help the person who's lost a job. education is how to make sure we've got a workforce that's productive and competitive. got four more years, i've got more to do to continue to raise standards, to continue to reward teachers and school districts that are working, to emphasize math and science in the classrooms, to continue to expand pell grants to make sure

that people have an opportunity to start their career with a college diploma. and so the person you talked to, i say, here's some help, here's some trade adjustment assistance money for you to go a community college in your neighborhood, a community college which is providing the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century. and that's what i would say to that person. schieffer: senator kerry? sen. kerry: i want you to notice how the president switched away from jobs and started talking about education principally. let me come back in one moment to that, but i want to speak for a second, if i can, to what the president said about fiscal responsibility. being lectured by the president on fiscal responsibility is a little bit like tony soprano talking to me about law and order in this country. [laughter] sen. kerry: this president has taken a surplus and turned it $5.6 trillion into deficits as

far as the eye can see. health-care costs for the average american have gone up 64 percent; tuitions have gone up 35 percent; gasoline prices up 30 percent; medicare premiums went up 17 percent a few days ago; prescription drugs are up 12 percent a year. but guess what, america? the wages of americans have gone down. the jobs that are being created in arizona right now are paying about $13,700 less than the jobs that we're losing. and the president just walks on by this problem. the fact is that he's cut job-training money. $1 billion was cut. they only added a little bit back this year because it's an election year. they've cut the pell grants and the perkins loans to help kids be able to go to college. they've cut the training money. they've wound up not even extending unemployment benefits and not even extending health care to those people who are unemployed. i'm going to do those things, because that's what's right in america: help workers to transition in every respect.

schieffer: new question to you, senator kerry, two minutes. and it's still on jobs. you know, many experts say that a president really doesn't have much control over jobs. for example, if someone invents a machine that does the work of five people, that's progress. that's not the president's fault. so i ask you, is it fair to blame the administration entirely for this loss of jobs? sen. kerry: i don't blame them entirely for it. i blame the president for the things the president could do that has an impact on it. outsourcing is going to happen. i've acknowledged that in union halls across the country. i've had shop stewards stand up and say, "will you promise me you're going to stop all this outsourcing?" and i've looked them in the eye and i've said, "no, i can't do that." what i can promise you is that i will make the playing field as fair as possible, that i will, for instance, make certain that with respect to the tax system that you as a worker in america are not subsidizing the loss of your job.

today, if you're an american business, you actually get a benefit for going overseas. you get to defer your taxes. so if you're looking at a competitive world, you say to yourself, "hey, i do better overseas than i do here in america." that's not smart. i don't want american workers subsidizing the loss of their own job. and when i'm president, we're going to shut that loophole in a nanosecond and we're going to use that money to lower corporate tax rates in america for all corporations, 5 percent. and we're going to have a manufacturing jobs credit and a job hiring credit so we actually help people be able to hire here. the second thing that we can do is provide a fair trade playing field. this president didn't stand up for boeing when airbus was violating international rules and subsidies. he discovered boeing during the course of this campaign after i'd been talking about it for months. the fact is that the president had an opportunity to stand up and take on china for currency manipulation. there are companies that wanted to petition the administration. they were told: don't even bother; we're not going to listen to it. the fact is that there have been markets shut to us that we

haven't stood up and fought for. i'm going to fight for a fair trade playing field for the american worker. and i will fight for the american worker just as hard as i fight for my own job. that's what the american worker wants. and if we do that, we can have an impact. plus, we need fiscal discipline. restore fiscal discipline, we'll do a lot better. schieffer: mr. president? pres. bush: whew! let me start with the pell grants. in his last litany of misstatements, he said we cut pell grants. we've increased pell grants by a million students. that's a fact. you know, he talks to the workers. let me talk to the workers. you've got more money in your pocket as a result of the tax relief we passed and he opposed. if you have a child, you got a $1,000 child credit. that's money in your pocket.

if you're married, we reduced the marriage penalty. the code ought to encourage marriage, not discourage marriage. we created a 10 percent bracket to help lower-income americans. a family of four making $40,000 received about $1,700 in tax relief. it's your money. the way my opponent talks, he said, "we're going to spend the government's money." we're spending your money. and when you have more money in your pocket, you're able to better afford things you want. i believe the role of government is to stand side by side with our citizens to help them realize their dreams, not tell citizens how to live their lives. my opponent talks about fiscal sanity. his record in the united states senate does not match his rhetoric. he voted to increase taxes 98 times and to bust the budget 277 times. schieffer: senator kerry? sen. kerry: bob, anybody can play with these votes. everybody knows that. i have supported or voted for tax cuts over 600 times. i broke with my party in order to balance the budget, and

ronald reagan signed into law the tax cut that we voted for. i voted for ira tax cuts. i voted for small-business tax cuts. but you know why the pell grants have gone up in their numbers? because more people qualify for them because they don't have money. but they're not getting the $5,100 the president promised them. they're getting less money. we have more people who qualify. that's not what we want. pres. bush: senator, no one's playing with your votes. you voted to increase taxes 98 times. when they voted -- when they proposed reducing taxes, you voted against it 126 times. he voted to violate the budget cap 277 times. you know, there's a main stream in american politics and you sit right on the far left bank. as a matter of fact, your record is such that ted kennedy, your colleague, is the conservative senator from massachusetts. schieffer: mr. president, let's get back to economic issues. but let's shift to some other questions here. both of you are opposed to gay

marriage. but to understand how you have come to that conclusion, i want to ask you a more basic question. do you believe homosexuality is a choice? pres. bush: you know, bob, i don't know. i just don't know. i do know that we have a choice to make in america and that is to treat people with tolerance and respect and dignity. it's important that we do that. and i also know in a free society people, consenting adults can live the way they want to live. and that's to be honored. but as we respect someone's rights, and as we profess tolerance, we shouldn't change -- or have to change -- our basic views on the sanctity of marriage. i believe in the sanctity of marriage. i think it's very important that we protect marriage as an institution, between a man and a woman. i proposed a constitutional amendment. the reason i did so was because i was worried that activist judges are actually defining the

definition of marriage, and the surest way to protect marriage between a man and woman is to amend the constitution. it has also the benefit of allowing citizens to participate in the process. after all, when you amend the constitution, state legislatures must participate in the ratification of the constitution. i'm deeply concerned that judges are making those decisions and not the citizenry of the united states. you know, congress passed a law called doma, the defense of marriage act. my opponent was against it. it basically protected states from the action of one state to another. it also defined marriage as between a man and woman. but i'm concerned that that will get overturned. and if it gets overturned, then we'll end up with marriage being defined by courts, and i don't think that's in our nation's interests. schieffer: senator kerry? sen. kerry: we're all god's children, bob. and i think if you were to talk

to dick cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as. i think if you talk to anybody, it's not choice. i've met people who struggled with this for years, people who were in a marriage because they were living a sort of convention, and they struggled with it. and i've met wives who are supportive of their husbands or vice versa when they finally sort of broke out and allowed themselves to live who they were, who they felt god had made them. i think we have to respect that. the president and i share the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. i believe that. i believe marriage is between a man and a woman. but i also believe that because we are the united states of america, we're a country with a great, unbelievable constitution, with rights that

we afford people, that you can't discriminate in the workplace. you can't discriminate in the rights that you afford people. you can't disallow someone the right to visit their partner in a hospital. you have to allow people to transfer property, which is why i'm for partnership rights and so forth. now, with respect to doma and the marriage laws, the states have always been able to manage those laws. and they're proving today, every state, that they can manage them adequately. schieffer: senator kerry, a new question for you. the new york times reports that some catholic archbishops are telling their church members that it would be a sin to vote for a candidate like you because you support a woman's right to choose an abortion and unlimited stem-cell research. what is your reaction to that? sen. kerry: i respect their views. i completely respect their views. i am a catholic.

and i grew up learning how to respect those views. but i disagree with them, as do many. i believe that i can't legislate or transfer to another american citizen my article of faith. what is an article of faith for me is not something that i can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of faith. i believe that choice is a woman's choice. it's between a woman, god and her doctor. and that's why i support that. now, i will not allow somebody to come in and change roe v. wade. the president has never said whether or not he would do that. but we know from the people he's tried to appoint to the court he wants to. i will not. i will defend the right of roe v. wade. now, with respect to religion, you know, as i said, i grew up a catholic. i was an altar boy. i know that throughout my life this has made a difference to me. and as president kennedy said when he ran for president, he said, "i'm not running to be a catholic president. i'm running to be a president who happens to be catholic. " my faith affects everything that

i do, in truth. there's a great passage of the bible that says, "what does it mean, my brother, to say you have faith if there are no deeds? faith without works is dead." and i think that everything you do in public life has to be guided by your faith, affected by your faith, but without transferring it in any official way to other people. that's why i fight against poverty. that's why i fight to clean up the environment and protect this earth. that's why i fight for equality and justice. all of those things come out of that fundamental teaching and belief of faith. but i know this, that president kennedy in his inaugural address told all of us that here on earth, god's work must truly be our own. and that's what we have to -- i think that's the test of public service. schieffer: mr. president? pres. bush: i think it's important to promote a culture of life. i think a hospitable society is a society where every being counts and every person matters. i believe the ideal world is one in which every child is

protected in law and welcomed to life. i understand there's great differences on this issue of abortion, but i believe reasonable people can come together and put good law in place that will help reduce the number of abortions. take, for example, the ban on partial birth abortion. it's a brutal practice. people from both political parties came together in the halls of congress and voted overwhelmingly to ban that practice. it made a lot of sense. my opponent, in that he's out of the mainstream, voted against that law. what i'm saying is, is that as we promote life and promote a culture of life, surely there are ways we can work together to reduce the number of abortions: continue to promote adoption laws -- it's a great alternative to abortion -- continue to fund and promote maternity group

homes; i will continue to promote abstinence programs. the last debate, my opponent said his wife was involved with those programs. that's great. i appreciate that very much. all of us ought to be involved with programs that provide a viable alternative to abortion. schieffer: mr. president, let's have a new question. it goes to you. and let's get back to economic issues. health insurance costs have risen over 36 percent over the last four years according to the washington post. we're paying more. we're getting less. i would like to ask you: who bears responsibility for this? is it the government? is it the insurance companies? is it the lawyers? is it the doctors? is it the administration? pres. bush: gosh, i sure hope it's not the administration. there's a -- no, look, there's a systemic problem. health-care costs are on the rise because the consumers are not involved in the decision-making process. most health-care costs are covered by third parties. and therefore, the actual user of health care is not the purchaser of health care.

and there's no market forces involved with health care. it's one of the reasons i'm a strong believer in what they call health savings accounts. these are accounts that allow somebody to buy a low-premium, high-deductible catastrophic plan and couple it with tax-free savings. businesses can contribute, employees can contribute on a contractual basis. but this is a way to make sure people are actually involved with the decision-making process on health care. secondly, i do believe the lawsuits -- i don't believe, i know -- that the lawsuits are causing health-care costs to rise in america. that's why i'm such a strong believer in medical liability reform. in the last debate, my opponent said those lawsuits only caused the cost to go up by 1 percent. well, he didn't include the defensive practice of medicine that costs the federal government some $28 billion a year and costs our society between $60 billion and $100 billion a year. thirdly, one of the reasons why there's still high cost in medicine is because this is --

they don't use any information technology. it's like if you looked at the -- it's the equivalent of the buggy and horse days, compared to other industries here in america. and so, we've got to introduce high technology into health care. we're beginning to do it. we're changing the language. we want there to be electronic medical records to cut down on error, as well as reduce cost. people tell me that when the health-care field is fully integrated with information technology, it'll wring some 20 percent of the cost out of the system. and finally, moving generic drugs to the market quicker. and so, those are four ways to help control the costs in health care. schieffer: senator kerry? sen. kerry: the reason health-care costs are getting higher, one of the principal reasons is that this administration has stood in the way of common-sense efforts that would have reduced the costs. let me give you a prime example. in the senate we passed the right of americans to import drugs from canada. but the president and his

friends took it out in the house, and now you don't have that right. the president blocked you from the right to have less expensive drugs from canada. we also wanted medicare to be able to negotiate bulk purchasing. the va does that. the va provides lower-cost drugs to our veterans. we could have done that in medicare. medicare is paid for by the american taxpayer. medicare belongs to you. medicare is for seniors, who many of them are on fixed income, to lift them out of poverty. but rather than help you, the taxpayer, have lower cost, rather than help seniors have less expensive drugs, the president made it illegal -- illegal -- for medicare to actually go out and bargain for lower prices. result: $139 billion windfall profit to the drug companies coming out of your pockets. that's a large part of your 17 percent increase in medicare premiums. when i'm president, i'm sending that back to congress and we're going to get a real prescription drug benefit.

now, we also have people sicker because they don't have health insurance. so whether it's diabetes or cancer, they come to hospitals later and it costs america more. we got to have health care for all americans. schieffer: go ahead, mr. president. pres. bush: i think it's important, since he talked about the medicare plan, has he been in the united states senate for 20 years? he has no record on reforming of health care. no record at all. he introduced some 300 bills and he's passed five. no record of leadership. i came to washington to solve problems. i was deeply concerned about seniors having to choose between prescription drugs and food. and so i led. and in 2006, our seniors will get a prescription drug coverage in medicare. schieffer: senator kerry? thirty seconds. sen. kerry: once again, the president is misleading america. i've actually passed 56 individual bills that i've personally written and, in addition to that, and not always under my name, there is amendments on certain bills. but more importantly, with respect to the question of no

record, i helped write -- i did write, i was one of the original authors of the early childhood health care and the expansion of health care that we did in the middle of the 1990s. and i'm very proud of that. so the president's wrong. schieffer: let me direct the next question to you, senator kerry, and again, let's stay on health care. you have, as you have proposed and as the president has commented on tonight, proposed a massive plan to extend health-care coverage to children. you're also talking about the government picking up a big part of the catastrophic bills that people get at the hospital. and you have said that you can pay for this by rolling back the president's tax cut on the upper 2 percent. you heard the president say earlier tonight that it's going to cost a whole lot more money than that. i'd just ask you, where are you going to get the money? kerry: well, two leading national news networks have both said the president's characterization of my health-care plan is incorrect. one called it fiction. the other called it untrue.

the fact is that my health-care plan, america, is very simple. it gives you the choice. i don't force you to do anything. it's not a government plan. the government doesn't require you to do anything. you choose your doctor. you choose your plan. if you don't want to take the offer of the plan that i want to put forward, you don't have do. you can keep what you have today, keep a high deductible, keep high premiums, keep a high co-pay, keep low benefits. but i got a better plan. and i don't think a lot of people are going to want to keep what they have today. here's what i do: we take over medicaid children from the states so that every child in america is covered. and in exchange, if the states want to -- they're not forced to, they can choose to -- they cover individuals up to 300 percent of poverty. it's their choice. i think they'll choose it, because it's a net plus of $5 billion to them. we allow you -- if you choose to, you don't have to -- but we give you broader competition to allow you to buy into the same

health care plan that senators and congressmen give themselves. if it's good enough for us, it's good enough for every american. i believe that your health care is just as important as any politician in washington, d. c. you want to buy into it, you can. we give you broader competition. that helps lower prices. in addition to that, we're going to allow people 55 to 64 to buy into medicare early. and most importantly, we give small business a 50 percent tax credit so that after we lower the costs of health care, they also get, whether they're self-employed or a small business, a lower cost to be able to cover their employees. now, what happens is when you begin to get people covered like that -- for instance in diabetes, if you diagnose diabetes early, you could save $50 billion in the health care system of america by avoiding surgery and dialysis. it works. and i'm going to offer it to america. pres. bush: in all due respect, i'm not so sure it's credible to

quote leading news organizations about -- oh, never mind. anyway, let me quote the lewin report. the lewin report is a group of folks who are not politically affiliated. they analyzed the senator's plan. it cost $1.2 trillion. the lewin report accurately noted that there are going to be 20 million people, over 20 million people added to government-controlled health care. it would be the largest increase in government health care ever. if you raise the medicaid to 300 percent, it provides an incentive for small businesses not to provide private insurance to their employees. why should they insure somebody when the government's going to insure it for them? it's estimated that 8 million people will go from private insurance to government insurance. we have a fundamental difference of opinion. i think government- run health will lead to poor-quality health, will lead to rationing, will lead to less choice.

once a health-care program ends up in a line item in the federal government budget, it leads to more controls. and just look at other countries that have tried to have federally controlled health care. they have poor-quality health care. our health-care system is the envy of the world because we believe in making sure that the decisions are made by doctors and patients, not by officials in the nation's capital. schieffer: senator? sen. kerry: the president just said that government-run health care results in poor quality. now, maybe that explains why he hasn't fully funded the va and the va hospital is having trouble and veterans are complaining. maybe that explains why medicare patients are complaining about being pushed off of medicare. he doesn't adequately fund it. but let me just say to america: i am not proposing a government-run program. that's not what i have. i have blue cross/blue shield. senators and congressmen have a wide choice. americans ought to have it too.

schieffer: mr. president? pres. bush: talk about the va: we've increased va funding by $22 billion in the four years since i've been president. that's twice the amount that my predecessor increased va funding. of course we're meeting our obligation to our veterans, and the veterans know that. we're expanding veterans' health care throughout the country. we're aligning facilities where the veterans live now. veterans are getting very good health care under my administration, and they will continue to do so during the next four years. schieffer: mr. president, the next question is to you. we all know that social security is running out of money, and it has to be fixed. you have proposed to fix it by letting people put some of the money collected to pay benefits into private savings accounts. but the critics are saying that's going to mean finding $1 trillion over the next 10 years to continue paying benefits as those accounts are being set up. so where do you get the money? are you going to have to increase the deficit by that much over 10 years?

pres. bush: first, let me make sure that every senior listening today understands that when we're talking about reforming social security, that they'll still get their checks. i remember the 2000 campaign, people said if george w. gets elected, your check will be taken away. well, people got their checks, and they'll continue to get their checks. there is a problem for our youngsters, a real problem. and if we don't act today, the problem will be valued in the trillions. and so i think we need to think differently. we'll honor our commitment to our seniors. but for our children and our grandchildren, we need to have a different strategy. and recognizing that, i called together a group of our fellow citizens to study the issue. it was a committee chaired by the late senator daniel patrick moynihan of new york, a democrat. and they came up with a variety of ideas for people to look at. i believe that younger workers ought to be allowed to take some of their own money and put it in a personal savings account,

because i understand that they need to get better rates of return than the rates of return being given in the current social security trust. and the compounding rate of interest effect will make it more likely that the social security system is solvent for our children and our grandchildren. i will work with republicans and democrats. it'll be a vital issue in my second term. it is an issue that i am willing to take on, and so i'll bring republicans and democrats together. and we're of course going to have to consider the costs. but i want to warn my fellow citizens: the cost of doing nothing, the cost of saying the current system is ok, far exceeds the costs of trying to make sure we save the system for our children. schieffer: senator kerry? sen. kerry: you just heard the president say that young people ought to be able to take money out of social security and put it in their own accounts. now, my fellow americans, that's an invitation to disaster. the cbo said very clearly that

if you were to adopt the president's plan, there would be a $2 trillion hole in social security, because today's workers pay in to the system for today's retirees. and the cbo said -- that's the congressional budget office; it's bipartisan -- they said that there would have to be a cut in benefits of 25 percent to 40 percent. now, the president has never explained to america, ever, hasn't done it tonight, where does the transitional money, that $2 trillion, come from? he's already got $3 trillion, according to the washington post, of expenses that he's put on the line from his convention and the promises of this campaign, none of which are paid for. not one of them are paid for. the fact is that the president is driving the largest deficits in american history. he's broken the pay-as-you-go rules. i have a record of fighting for fiscal responsibility. in 1985, i was one of the first

democrats -- broke with my party. we balanced the budget in the '90s. we paid down the debt for two years. and that's what we're going to do. we're going to protect social security. i will not privatize it. i will not cut the benefits and we're going to be fiscally responsible. and we will take care of social security. schieffer: let me just stay on social security with a new question for senator kerry, because, senator kerry, you have just said you will not cut benefits. alan greenspan, the chairman of the federal reserve, says there's no way that social security can pay retirees what we have promised them unless we recalibrate. what he's suggesting, we're going to cut benefits or we're going to have to raise the retirement age. we may have to take some other reform. but if you've just said, you've promised no changes, does that mean you're just going to leave this as a problem, another problem for our children to solve? sen. kerry: absolutely not, bob. this is the same thing we heard -- remember, i appeared on "meet the press" with tim russert in 1990-something. we heard the same thing. we fixed it. in fact, we put together a $5.6

trillion surplus in the '90s that was for the purpose of saving social security. if you take the tax cut that the president of the united states has given -- president bush gave to americans in the top 1 percent of america -- just that tax cut that went to the top 1 percent of america would have saved social security until the year 2075. the president decided to give it to the wealthiest americans in a tax cut. now, alan greenspan, who i think has done a terrific job in monetary policy, supports the president's tax cut. i don't. i support it for the middle class, not that part of it that goes to people earning more than $200,000 a year. and when i roll it back and we invest in the things that i have talked about to move our economy, we're going to grow sufficiently, it would begin to cut the deficit in half, and we get back to where we were at the end of the 1990s when we balanced the budget and paid down the debt of this country. now, we can do that. now, if later on after a period of time we find that social

security is in trouble, we'll pull together the top experts of the country. we'll do exactly what we did in the 1990s. and we'll make whatever adjustment is necessary. thing is to start creating jobs in america. the jobs the president is creating pay $9,000 less than the jobs that we're losing. and this is the first president in 72 years to preside over an economy in america that has lost jobs, 1. 6 million jobs. eleven other presidents -- six democrats and five republicans -- had wars, had recessions, had great difficulties; none of them lost jobs the way this president has. i have a plan to put america back to work. and if we're fiscally responsible and put america back to work, we're going to fix social security. schieffer: mr. president? pres. bush: he forgot to tell you he voted to tax social security benefits more than one time. i didn't hear any plan to fix social security. i heard more of the same.

he talks about middle-class tax cuts. that's exactly where the tax cuts went. most of the tax cuts went to low- and middle-income americans. and now the tax code is more fair. twenty percent of the upper-income people pay about 80 percent of the taxes in america today because of how we structured the tax cuts. people listening out there know the benefits of the tax cuts we passed. if you have a child, you got tax relief. if you're married, you got tax relief. if you pay any tax at all, you got tax relief. all of which was opposed by my opponent. and the tax relief was important to spur consumption and investment to get us out of this recession. people need to remember: six months prior to my arrival, the stock market started to go down. and it was one of the largest declines in our history. and then we had a recession and we got attacked, which cost us 1 million jobs. but we acted. i led the congress. we passed tax relief.

and now this economy is growing. we added 1.9 million new jobs over the last 13 months. sure, there's more work to do. but the way to make sure our economy grows is not to raise taxes on small-business owners. it's not to increase the scope of the federal government. it's to make sure we have fiscal sanity and keep taxes low. schieffer: let's go to a new question, mr. president. i got more e-mail this week on this question than any other question. and it is about immigration. i'm told that at least 8,000 people cross our borders illegally every day. some people believe this is a security issue, as you know. some believe it's an economic issue. some see it as a human-rights issue. how do you see it? and what do we need to do about it? pres. bush: i see it as a serious problem. i see it as a security issue, i see it as an economic issue, and i see it as a human-rights issue. we're increasing the border security of the united states. we've got 1,000 more border patrol agents on the southern border.

we're using new equipment. we're using unmanned vehicles to spot people coming across. and we'll continue to do so over the next four years. it's a subject i'm very familiar with. after all, i was a border governor for a while. many people are coming to this country for economic reasons. they're coming here to work. if you can make 50 cents in the heart of mexico, for example, or make $5 here in america, $5.15, you're going to come here if you're worth your salt, if you want to put food on the table for your families. and that's what's happening. and so in order to take pressure off the borders, in order to make the borders more secure, i believe there ought to be a temporary worker card that allows a willing worker and a willing employer to mate up, so long as there's not an american willing to do that job, to join up in order to be able to fulfill the employers' needs. that has the benefit of making sure our employers aren't breaking the law as they try to fill their workforce needs. it makes sure that the people coming across the border are

humanely treated, that they're not kept in the shadows of our society, that they're able to go back and forth to see their families. see, the card, it'll have a period of time attached to it. it also means it takes pressure off the border. if somebody is coming here to work with a card, it means they're not going to have to sneak across the border. it means our border patrol will be more likely to be able to focus on doing their job. now, it's very important for our citizens to also know that i don't believe we ought to have amnesty. i don't think we ought to reward illegal behavior. there are plenty of people standing in line to become a citizen. and we ought not to crowd these people ahead of them in line. if they want to become a citizen, they can stand in line, too. and here is where my opponent and i differ. in september 2003, he supported amnesty for illegal aliens. schieffer: time's up. senator? sen. kerry: let me just answer one part of the last question quickly, and then i'll come to immigration. the american middle-class family isn't making it right now, bob. and what the president said

about the tax cuts has been wiped out by the increase in health care, the increase in gasoline, the increase in tuitions, the increase in prescription drugs. the fact is, the take-home pay of a typical american family as a share of national income is lower than it's been since 1929. and the take-home pay of the richest .1 percent of americans is the highest it's been since 1928. under president bush, the middle class has seen their tax burden go up and the wealthiest's tax burden has gone down. now that's wrong. now, with respect to immigration reform, the president broke his promise on immigration reform. he said he would reform it. four years later he is now promising another plan. here's what i'll do: number one, the borders are more leaking today than they were before 9/11. the fact is, we haven't done what we need to do to toughen up our borders, and i will. secondly, we need a guest-worker program, but if it's all we have, it's