about the tax cuts has been wiped out by the increase in health care, the increase in gasoline, the increase in tuitions, the increase in prescription drugs. the fact is, the take-home pay of a typical american family as a share of national income is lower than it's been since 1929. and the take-home pay of the richest .1 percent of americans is the highest it's been since 1928. under president bush, the middle class has seen their tax burden go up and the wealthiest's tax burden has gone down. now that's wrong. now, with respect to immigration reform, the president broke his promise on immigration reform. he said he would reform it. four years later he is now promising another plan. here's what i'll do: number one, the borders are more leaking today than they were before 9/11. the fact is, we haven't done what we need to do to toughen up our borders, and i will. secondly, we need a guest-worker program, but if it's all we have, it's not going to solve

the problem. the second thing we need is to crack down on illegal hiring. it's against the law in the united states to hire people illegally, and we ought to be enforcing that law properly. and thirdly, we need an earned-legalization program for people who have been here for a long time, stayed out of trouble, got a job, paid their taxes, and their kids are american. we got to start moving them toward full citizenship, out of the shadows. schieffer: do you want to respond, mr. president? pres. bush: well, to say that the borders are not as protected as they were prior to september the 11th shows he doesn't know the borders. they're much better protected today than they were when i was the governor of texas. we have much more manpower and much more equipment there. he just doesn't understand how the borders work, evidently, to say that. that is an outrageous claim. and we'll continue to protect our borders. we're continuing to increase manpower and equipment. schieffer: senator? sen. kerry: four thousand people a day are coming across the border. the fact is that we now have people from the middle east, allegedly, coming across the border.

and we're not doing what we ought to do in terms of the technology. we have iris-identification technology. we have thumbprint, fingerprint technology today. we can know who the people are, that they're really the people they say they are when they cross the border. we could speed it up. there are huge delays. the fact is our borders are not as secure as they ought to be, and i'll make them secure. schieffer: next question to you, senator kerry. the gap between rich and poor is growing wider. more people are dropping into poverty. yet the minimum wage has been stuck at, what, $5.15 an hour now for about seven years. is it time to raise it? kerry: well, i'm glad you raised that question. it's long overdue time to raise the minimum wage. and, america, this is one of those issues that separates the president and myself. we have fought to try to raise the minimum wage in the last years. but the republican leadership of the house and senate won't even let us have a vote on it. we're not allowed to vote on it. they don't want to raise the minimum wage. the minimum wage is the lowest

minimum wage value it has been in our nation in 50 years. if we raise the minimum wage, which i will do over several years to $7 an hour, 9.2 million women who are trying to raise their families would earn another $3,800 a year. the president has denied 9.2 million women $3,800 a year, but he doesn't hesitate to fight for $136,000 to a millionaire. one percent of america got $89 billion last year in a tax cut, but people working hard, playing by the rules, trying to take care of their kids, family values, that we're supposed to value so much in america -- i'm tired of politicians who talk about family values and don't value families. what we need to do is raise the minimum wage. we also need to hold on to equal pay. women work for 76 cents on the dollar for the same work that men do. that's not right in america.

and we had an initiative that we were working on to raise women's pay. they've cut it off. they've stopped it. they don't enforce these kinds of things. now, i think that it's a matter of fundamental right that if we raise the minimum wage, 15 million americans would be positively affected. we'd put money into the hands of people who work hard, who obey the rules, who play for the american dream. and if we did that, we'd have more consumption ability in america, which is what we need right now in order to kick our economy into gear. i will fight tooth and nail to pass the minimum wage. pres. bush: actually, mitch mcconnell had a minimum-wage plan that i supported that would have increased the minimum wage. but let me talk about what's really important for the worker you're referring to. and that's to make sure the education system works. it's to make sure we raise standards. listen, the no child left behind act is really a jobs act when you think about it. the no child left behind act

says, "we'll raise standards. we'll increase federal spending. but in return for extra spending, we now want people to measure -- states and local jurisdictions to measure to show us whether or not a child can read or write or add and subtract." you cannot solve a problem unless you diagnose the problem. and we weren't diagnosing problems. and therefore just kids were being shuffled through the school. and guess who would get shuffled through? children whose parents wouldn't speak english as a first language just move through. many inner-city kids just move through. we've stopped that practice now by measuring early. and when we find a problem, we spend extra money to correct it. i remember a lady in houston, texas, told me, "reading is the new civil right," and she's right. in order to make sure people have jobs for the 21st century, we've got to get it right in the education system, and we're beginning to close a minority achievement gap now. you see, we'll never be able to compete in the 21st century unless we have an education system that doesn't quit on

children, an education system that raises standards, an education that makes sure there's excellence in every classroom. schieffer: mr. president, i want to go back to something senator kerry said earlier tonight and ask a follow-up of my own. he said -- and this will be a new question to you -- he said that you had never said whether you would like to overturn roe v. wade. so i'd ask you directly, would you like to? pres. bush: what he's asking me is, will i have a litmus test for my judges? and the answer is, no, i will not have a litmus test. i will pick judges who will interpret the constitution, but i'll have no litmus test. schieffer: senator kerry, you'd like to respond? sen. kerry: is that a new question or a 30-second question? schieffer: that's a new question for senator -- for president bush. you have 90 seconds. sen. kerry: thank you very much. well, again, the president didn't answer the question.

i'll answer it straight to america. i'm not going to appoint a judge to the court who's going to undo a constitutional right, whether it's the first amendment, or the fifth amendment, or some other right that's given under our courts today -- under the constitution. and i believe that the right of choice is a constitutional right. so i don't intend to see it undone. clearly, the president wants to leave in ambivalence or intends to undo it. but let me go a step further. we have a long distance yet to travel in terms of fairness in america. i don't know how you can govern in this country when you look at new york city and you see that 50 percent of the black males there are unemployed, when you see 40 percent of hispanic children -- of black children in some cities -- dropping out of high school. and yet the president who talks about no child left behind refused to fully fund -- by $28 billion -- that particular program so you can make a difference in the lives of those young people.

now right here in arizona, that difference would have been $131 million to the state of arizona to help its kids be able to have better education and to lift the property tax burden from its citizens. the president reneged on his promise to fund no child left behind. he'll tell you he's raised the money, and he has. but he didn't put in what he promised, and that makes a difference in the lives of our children. schieffer: yes, sir? pres. bush: two things. one, he clearly has a litmus test for his judges, which i disagree with. and secondly, only a liberal senator from massachusetts would say that a 49 percent increase in funding for education was not enough. we've increased funds. but more importantly, we've reformed the system to make sure that we solve problems early, before they're too late. he talked about the unemployed. absolutely we've got to make sure they get educated. he talked about children whose parents don't speak english as a first language? absolutely we've got to make sure they get educated. and that's what the no child left behind act does. schieffer: senator? sen. kerry: you don't measure it

by a percentage increase. mr. president, you measure it by whether you're getting the job done. 500,000 kids lost after-school programs because of your budget. now, that's not in my gut. that's not in my value system, and certainly not so that the wealthiest people in america can walk away with another tax cut. $89 billion last year to the top 1 percent of americans, but kids lost their after-school programs. you be the judge. schieffer: all right, let's go to another question. and it is to senator kerry. you have two minutes, sir. senator, the last debate, president bush said he did not favor a draft. you agreed with him. but our national guard and reserve forces are being severely strained because many of them are being held beyond their enlistments. some of them say that it's a back-door draft. is there any relief that could be offered to these brave americans and their families?

if you became president, senator kerry, what would you do about this situation of holdingwhat wg them for this time and the call ups? kerry: . they are wrapped up in this and i proposed adding divisions to doubley and i'm going to the provisions to fight a more effective war and i would like

to see the national guard reserve to put differently and there is more we can do and it would relieve pressure. pressure, we need to run a form policy that recognizes that we are the strongest when we work with real theances and we share burden of the world and would bring other nations to our side. that there would be a real alliance and that we would and thery precaution

results is that we are we have muchand more and it is a result of this president taking his eye off of bin laden. >> the best way to take the iraq to of is to train trained and is want to say thank you to the people who want overseas and people had high spirits and they didn't view this service as a backdoor draft. my opponent talks about foreign

debate,nd, in the first he suggested a global test to defend ourselves and getting approval. this is a major difference we have with the country. i will work and continue to build a strong coalition and this securityr system to leaders of other countries and we will wage a comprehensive for against the terrorists. >> i never suggested that test .nd i have said the opposite i will never turn the security no nation will ever have a detail over us. most americans know that we need a standard to gain legitimacy

with people and in the world. protect the fail to united states of america. >> there was a vast coalition could together and the international community and the world said that this was the right thing to do and my opponent voted against the usage pass anyand it cannot test. schieffer: you said that you would sign legislation for a -- aon assault reference ban on assault weapons. bush: i was told the bill would not move and that people of both

parties will be against it. i believe in background checks at gun shows to make sure they do not get in the hands of people who do not have them. the best way to protect our crimess is to prosecute with guns and i have called on attorneys to put together a task toce across the country prosecute those who commit crimes and those are up. , one wehoods are safer cracked down on those who commit crimes with guns and that is the best way to handle this in america. i am a hunter and a gun owner and i have been one since a

temper withwill not the second amendment. i'm also a former law enforcement officer and i was a district attorney. i have put people behind bars and i know something about prosecuting. most enforcement agencies wanted n and theyt weapon ba did not want to be hunting with an ak-47. they said, we did a drug bust and there was an ak-47 on a bed. terrace can now coming to america, come into a gun show, by an assault weapon. said.s what the handbook

i believe that america is less safe. tom delay said we do not have the votes, i would say that we have a fight and i would have out andrcement go fight. we would have one. schieffer: do you see a need for affirmative action or have we moved far enough along that we no longer need it? we have not moved far enough along and i think that this administration blocked steps to move this along and i will give you examples. toused to have a goal

encourage ownership in the country and they try to undo them. the fact is that we have discrimination and the affirmative-action doesn't just apply to people of color. womenalso with respect to and other efforts to be inclusive in this country and i think that we have a long way to go and, if you look at what has happened, i want to say that we have made progress. and there wereht many who felt that there were places where this was overreaching and we had a policy to fix it for a reason. there were too many people in thecountry who felt that

starkance -- you felt the -- who felt the stark resistance of racism. this president is the first to not meet with the naacp. this president has not met with the congressional caucus. he has not met with the civil rights leadership of the country. if a president does not bring overe in an, how do we get the barriers? all, it simply is not true that i have not met with the black congressional caucus and i do not agree with quotas. the aggressivee

effort to make sure people are educated and that there are pell grants available for people. $73ou realize that we spend billion to help low and middle income families better afford college? that is what i believe and. -- in. they can start their careers with a college diploma. the best way to help small to unbundles thernment contracts and minority ownership of businesses are up and the entrepreneurial spirit is strong and i believe is moret of this

americans owning a home and that is hopeful and positive. invasion,or after the i believe you said you checked with the higher the doherty. what part does your faith play on the policy decisions? >> what i was really saying is do and iay a lot and i pray for strength, wisdom, my mindfulirls and i am and, ifple can worship

you are christian, muslim, you are equally american and that is what is great about that. prayer and religion have sustained me and i love that say, i will have you know that i just feel this and i never want to impose my religion decisions but i make amprinciple, based on who i and i believe that people need to love their neighbor, as

--mselves and stop themselves. i believe that god wants everybody to be free. that is what i believe. that is part of my foreign policy. inelieve that the freedom afghanistan is a gift from the almighty. i cannot tell you how encouraged i am to see freedom on the march. religion is a part of me. senator kerry? i respect his faith and i share it. i think that he just said that freedom is a gift from the almighty. everything is. words of thethe bible, different people measure

different things and native americans gave me a blessing, and they have a sense of the higher being and they have different ways to express this. i went to a church school and i important that the commandments were to love god and your neighbor. dohave a lot more loving to in this planet and we have a schoole and unequal system in america. there is one for the people who have and the people who do not. we are struggling and there is a difference of opinion as to how we live out faith without works being dead and i think we have a lot more work to do.

practicing or not practicing religion. schieffer: after 9/11, the country came together and some of it seems to have melt it away and i think it is fair to say that we have gotten pretty polarized. president,elected will you set a priority on bringing the nation back together? john kerry: let me pay a couple meant to the president. after 9/11, i thought the president did a terrific job and i was really moved and impressed by the speech that he gave to the congress and i think that tom daschle had a sense of all

of us just being americans and that is where we were. that is not where we are. is presiding over the most divided america in the history of our country and i have never seen such ideological squabbles and i have never seen members of parties locked out of .eetings we have to change this and i am committed to changing it and i do not care if the idea comes from the other side are this side. togethere have to come work have done that and i to find common ground to make us strong as americans.

if americans trust me with the presidency, we will have a sick if he did effort and no secret meetings in the white house or ideologically efforts -- ideologically driven efforts. we will try to restore possibilities and bring people together and i will work with john mccain to further campaign-finance reform to get moneycredible amounts of out of this system, so that america is represented by the people who represent america. >> my disappointment in washington is how partisan the town is and i worked with .epublicans and democrats we made good progress early and there was good work between me

and my administration. we worked together with democrats to relieve the tax burden on the middle class to make the economy continued to grow. washington is a tough town and i view a lot of special interest there. there are people on one side of the issue or the other and they spend money and convinced different senators to go this way or talk about this issue. i will continue to try to work -- they did again. i will continue to try to work. theas pretty divided in 1990's. this is just a time where we have to bring this out. john mccain endorsed me for knows it because he

have the right plan and my opponent has a strategy of rich retr and defeat in iraq -- eat and defeat in iraq. the three of us share something, we are married to strong women and each of us have two daughters that make us very proud. i would like to ask each of you what is the most important thing you have learned from these women. bush: listen to them. [laughter] stand up straight. don't scowl. i love the strong women around me. i cannot tell you how much i love my wife and my daughter's. you know, it is interesting, you tell the people on the campaign

trail -- to a dealt hold me and she is out and campaigning and sheth our girls speaks english a lot better than i do. i think people understand what she's saying and they see a compassionate and strong first lady. i cannot tell you how lucky i am. ofet her in that backyard the o'neills add a backyard barbecue. i was told there would be somebody who might interest me. there were four of us there. she interest me and i guess you could say that it was love at first sight. kerry: i guess the president you, and i are examples of lucky people who

have married up. me, more so than others, but i can take it. if i just could say a word about a woman you didn't ask about, my mom. she passed away just before i decided to run. i went to talk to her and tell her what i was thinking of doing and she looked at me and said, "remember, integrity, integrity, integrity." those are the three words she left me with. women in my life are people who have a sense of what is right and wrong. they have cap me around.

they keep me honest. only get away with anything. i sometimes take myself seriously. they don't let me. i am blessed, as the president because we're both very lucky. schieffer: that brings us to closing statements. kerry: you heard from bob schieffer that america is being tested by division. we need to be united, as a country. like roosevelt, i don't care whether the idea is a republican or democrat idea. i care that it works for america. dangerous times and i

have tested leadership to calm the waters of the troubled world. i believe that we can do things that are within the grasp of can have health care for all americans. we can further the cause of equality. let me make it clear that i will never allow any country to have security. over our i will fight to defend this nation. od and conviction in the mission of america, i believe that we can reach higher and do better. the greatest possibilities, dreams, hopes, they are out there to be grabbed onto. ark on thiso emb

journey with me. i asked for the privilege to lead the nation to be stronger here and respected in the world. most of all, safer forever. god bless the united states of america. bush: there is a painting by a from west texas of a mountain scene. he said, we live on the east the, the sunrise side, not son said side. optimism. that is how i feel about america. -- we haven through

been through a lot of things. we went through stock market decline and the attack on the country. because of the work of people, we will make sure the economy grows. we have reformed our school system and we will continue to create excellence so that children have a chance to realize the promise of america. we were to make health care affordable and rally the armies of compassion to help heal the hurt in the neighborhood. i am optimistic that we will win the war on terrorism and i understand that it requires resolve and purpose. we must never waver in the face of these ideologues. we will spread freedom and

liberty. we have great faith in the ability to transform societies and convert a hostile world into a peaceful world. i hope for a hopeful america and a safer world. i am asking for your vote. god bless you. you.chieffer: thank that brings the debates to a close. the campaign goes on. i wish you the best of luck between now and election day. that is it. good night.

>> sunday night author jd vans talks about growing up in a poor white family that has roots in appalachia. this clears not connections that now exists in my mind between education and opportunities, because even the people who did pretty well in school