] >> president obama talks with reporters at the end of the economic summit in lima, peru. ♪ announcer: this week on q&a, author okey ndibe. brian: never look an american in the eye is the name of your book. -- is the title of your book. but i have to start with the obvious. tell the story. okey: it is one of my favorite

stories in the book. okey is a fairly common name in my part of the country. in 1988,me to america i found that my name became the stuff of hilarity. man fromi met this botswana. as we introduced each other, i okey, and hewas started laughing and said, you will never believe what happened. and i said, tell me. that he was pushing his cart down the aisle and a woman said, how do you like the snow? at first i said i don't like snow at all. i like it dry and warm. then the woman said, you have an accent, where are you from?

he said botswana. she said is that in africa. he said yes. she said, are you okay? he said yes. the woman started to talk to him with great interest. they talked for 12 minutes or so. the man says i can't believe you are okey. and the man said is there anything that suggest that i am not okay? i heard that you are in town. a novel. and he said, no, i am a graduate student. and she said, but i thought you said you were okay.

then she said that i am really sorry that someone in town is okey. after that account, the man went away thinking that the woman wanted to pick him up. he said that he was willing to be picked up. they came up with a story about somebody's name. the very next day, he met me. that is why when he met me the very next day, he could not stop laughing. brian: how many people in nigeria would be named okey? okey: a lot. southwestern nigeria okey is , actually short for something. the full name means the creation of god. it is a fairly common name like one that means the strength of god. to give you an example, about four years ago my wife and i were in the bahamas for a friend's wedding. the guy who was wedding, his name was okey. and, in addition to me and this guide there were two other guys

okey at the party. yesterday i went to houston and there was also a professor in the audience named okey. it is a fairly common name over there in nigeria. surnames over there have meaning is a good one, if you like. brian: let's do some background quickly so that we can get onto the book. you live where today? okey: i live in the west half of connecticut. brian: what do you do in your free time? okey: i write full-time now. i delve into teaching. i have done teaching at different universities from brown to trinity college. a college in great barrington. the last year i spent in las vegas at the university of nevada, las vegas.

where i had a writing fellowship to begin working on my next book. i'm actually traveling, speaking on behalf of this book. so i am not teaching at all. hoping that next year i will return somewhere to teach. brian: the first year that you came to the united states? okey: i came in december of 1988. in december, this will be 28 years in america. i came at the invitation of a nigerian novelist. to set up an african magazine called african commentary. brian: when did you become a u.s. citizen? okey: 1996. brian: why did you do that? okey: that is a question that my mother asks me to this day. when i told her i became an american. i have always been a great admirer of america. a big student of american history.

the history of its african-descended people. beginning in slavery and captivity. and culminated today in which we great ofaps the most american presidents in history in barack obama. that story of tragedy and transformation has always impressed me. i wanted to be part of this great socialist experiment called america. brian: what is the view that africans have, i know this is a big general statement, of america? maybe one step more, what is the view that africans have of africans view of america? to evolve.ntinues i think that obama's election put a spotlight on africa.

it helps to reshape in a dramatic way, the american conception of africa. when i came to america, the dominant view of africa was that africa was some kind of charmed kingdom of animals. the human population was somewhat incidental, almost peripheral to this continent. and so it was -- it was like i encountered so many hilarious questions. people who believed there were no airports and africa. people who believed that africans lived in trees and that you could come out of your compound and an counter a lion. sort of an everyday encounter. i am guessing to things have changed that. i think the internet, social media, has sort of put every

corner of the world under the spotlight and a significant way. americans can sit down in any locale in this country and see a part of africa. also, i think more and more american universities and colleges are establishing visiting relationships with universities in africa. and then of course, obama's election would be the third most important factor. brian: nigeria, tell us something about the country. where is it? okey: nigeria is going through very difficult times. when you say that, that is actually a statement that needs some kind of contextualizing. because nigeria has had difficulties since it was founded by the british. i think that nigeria still exhibits all the symptoms of artificial community. nigeria collected close to 400

different ethnic groups and languages. i don't think that nigeria imagined the involvement that it -- is that the british imagined for a moment that nigeria would coalesce into a meaningful community. it helps their nationalism that they can have this huge space where they could exploit the rum material's and then dump the goods. produce the goods and so on. the independence from british. in 1960. they did not pay attention in britain to the nation-building that was as a urgent now as it was in 1960.

sadly, it continues to be abdicated by the political elite. so this great nigerian novelist said that nigeria is the country that manages to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. i say sometimes it that nigeria was the nation that was conceived with hope that was nurtured into hopelessness. brian: i have to ask you about the crocodile story. i gave it away back to the view that the american people have of africa. what was that story? okey: shortly after eight became dashcam -- shortly after he came to america, i became friends with a graduate student at the university where i live at the time. one day, he said to me, i would like to know how you africans come to america when there are no airports in africa.

i thought maybe he was some kind of comedian who was trying out his material. i said we ride on the back of crocodiles. across the atlantic. his face shifted into horror. he said, won't they eat you? i said, no, they will kiss you if you kiss them. that night he called me in a rather earnest voice and he said, i told the story to my roommates and they don't leave it so i would like for them to meet you said they can hear the story from the horses mouth. i said, i don't know the horse well. i said, the crockett title i know is too busy -- the crocodile i know is too busy taking africans across to america to meet your roommates.

brian: where do you get your sense of humor? okey: first of all, in my culture, humor is so integral to everything. marriage ceremonies, weddings, traditional marriage ceremonies, formal christian weddings. funerals even. children.ns of wherever there is a garden, you find people who are extremely funny. and so for many years, nigeria did not have professional comedians. we just had so many funny people around that you could find some in a bar who would hurt your ribs from laughter. brian: your mom is alive? okey: my mom is alive, she will be 92 next year. brian: where is she? okey: my hometown in nigeria. the southeastern part. the capital of my home state.

brian: looking at the map, go down to the southwest corner. okey: southeast is where you want to be. do you see where it is? we would be very close to it. an hour from that. brian: where is biafra? okey: it is in the southeastern part of nigeria. including the oil-producing what they call the niger delta. part of biafra. brian: did you live there? okey: yes. i was born in the northeastern part of nigeria. the is where boko haram, islamic terror group that has been active. that is where i was born. it was the precursor to the civil war.

the be offered more. my father sent us home with my mother. he had to stay back. and so i lived there during the duration of the war. i was a child. i have vivid images of that war. yes. brian: what happened and what was the issue? okey: the war was in 1967 and it ended in 1970. there were calamitous consequences. many people died, mostly civilians. a lot of them children and women. from starvation. i thought they were speaking about the war. actually, it is one of those sharply divided memories that we have in nigeria. there is no agreement on who won the war. one way of explaining the war is that it was a consequence of the failure of nigeria to achieve a

sense of nationhood. so, there was a coup d'etat in which aof 19 six in military officer staged a coup. most of the casualties, most of the politicians killed were from other parts of nigeria. so there was kind of a reprisal -- reprisal in june. a counter-two in which they targeted officers. and this was followed by a series of targeted attacks on christians and people from the southeastern part of nigeria. this series of attacks than led to a groundswell to ask for succession.

became part of nigeria different part of the nation. what you find today is that there is another resurgence of sentiment for secession again. that a lot of these young people allreally are disappointed of the failure in nigeria. resurgence of biafra as a solution to their sense of despair. there hopelessness. ryan: 170 million people live in nigeria, you say the largest country in africa. how many live here in the united states? okey: i'm sure that somebody has put the information together but i don't have it. nigerians constitute the highest

number of africans outside of the african continent. but in europe and united states aerywhere you go, there is nigerian. it is like there is a joke that if you went to the remotest place in the world, and you did not find a nigerian, then it is not particularly habitable, you might as well move on. brian: how big is the tribe in nigeria? okey: there are more than 400 different languages but there are three big ones. so, there are the ebo. the houser. and the euroba. i would say that between the 60%e, they constitute about of the nigerian population. and so roughly a third of that

ebo.would be brian: what was it like when you moved here for the first couple of years? okey: difficult. the process of integrating into a new culture. i edited an international magazine. when i came, sadly, there was not much money. that was something i had to deal with. to find out from an international magazine that your employer do not have the money to pay you. a lot of times, i had to make phone calls to ask for money to pay for money to make rent. brian: where were you living? okey: i was living in amherst, massachusetts. brian: let me run some video. for people of never see. either way, what year did he

die? okey: he died in 2013. he was a professor of brown university. brian: in providence? okey: in providence. brian: here is a video that will show you what he sounds like. theu will know i am sure, whole tradition of novel writing was based in new york. in which africans were presented in ways that i personally found unacceptable. almost a plan to deny these people language. and to give them instead animal sounds.

it, pick up "heart of darkness" and read it again. brian: your reaction to that? okey: that was one of our most essential storytellers and intellectuals. his signature mode was a quiet statement that was profoundly resonant. that was an example you saw there. he is speaking to that european temptation. and the temptation of americans to sometimes reduce africans to the space of animals. itsays this in a very quiet, inimitable way that is very powerful.

brian: why was he so admired and popular? okey: i think it has to do with the fact that his novel was the most read book by an african. perhaps even by a person of african descent. it has been translated into six different languages, it sold many in english. it alluded to this moment of encounter between africa and europe. he gave the world a subject that was written for discussion. brian: did he become an american like you? okey: no, he never became an american. brian: why not? ok: because i had interviewed

how i came to of america starts back when i interviewed a bunch of young journalists. but on one occasion, i chinua and hehebe said that god and his wisdom, planted him in nigeria. on a patch of earth if you like. that is where his loyalties lie. sadly, he could never turn to nigeria because of his condition. he had an accident and became paraplegic. and so, he could not return to nigeria. us in his clear to writing and in his persona that nigeria was at the heart of his being and his work as well. brian: what did he teach you?

okey: achebe taught me that stories have to have integrity. achebe also taught me the stories were important. there was something deeply moral about art and the art of storytelling. it is not innocent. stories are used to enslave and oppressed. and stories can also be used to liberate and free people. his mode of storytelling -- he was a writer who never wasted a word. when achebe wrote something, you had the sense that he had such deep respect for language that he would just play around with language. the way he said it and what he said came together beautifully. brian: i think you were sitting in a bar? yes. brian: a couple of guys were

talking about two women. communism? , much earlier. brian: you can tell both of those. okey: well, as a youngster, i loved to eavesdrop on conversations. today when i asked my children to come sit with us, they find a way to run away. so, young people have indifference to the stories of adults. but i was particularly curious to eavesdrop. in my world there was a sharp division. you would not intrude on the conversation of adults unless you were invited. i would appear to be doing something, but that was an excuse to overhear what adults were talking about. and so one day, i was near a bar. i liked to go to such places and

hang out. this man was talking about a system called communism. he said it was invented by a man called karl marx. he said that communism meant that everything was owned in common. the poorest guy could just find a mercedes and get into it. the key would be in it. you could start the car and drive to wherever you want it. you can get into a mansion and take the best band in the mansion and so on. poor, iuse i grew up became a communist in my mind. i wanted communism to come to nigeria so that i could drive the great expensive cars that only a few privileged nigerians have drived. and i can go to the mansion's that some nigerians were able to build and spend the night there.

that is what i saw communism as as a young person. the others story is i had gone to the train station to pick up my brother in law who is from nigeria. i found out his train was running late. so i decided that to rather than go home i should look into a bar in have a beer or so and wait for him to arrive. two women walked in and did seem quite inebriated. they struck up a conversation with me. quickly remarked that i had an accent. and she said, where are you from? and i said, it is an africa. and she said what are you doing in america? i love animals, i love the jungle, if i was from africa, i would never come to america. so i said to her, my mother-in-law is from vermont. they have a lot of animals in

vermont. so i recommend vermont to you. brian: you met your wife year -- where? named sherry.is crasher. be a party so i tell people i crashed a party and stole the prize. brian: you talk about in your book that you used to be a partier. okey: i used be a rascal. in some ways, i still am. but in a rather more innocent way. but i used to be a rascal. in ways that were not particularly consider it to others. particularly women who were in relationships with me. so the day i crashed sherries

party, i was surprised to see her father there. her father was a very revered intellectual and a well-known figure in education. in nigeria. he had written some of the major in classrooms, universities, and so on. he was at this party. i went to him and said, are you the professor? he said yes. he said it was his daughter's birthday. the party was elsewhere, he was in the living room. i began to talk to him. i was rather flattered that he knew who i was. i had been a journalist in nigeria. i was talking to him for 30 or 40 minutes when his daughter said why don't you let this guy come and dance? and he said that i am not holding him. who sat here.

i do not do great dancing but people do notice me when i'm on the dance floor. there was some chemistry i felt but i was a little bit more of a playboy then somebody in a relationship. and so there was a woman who knew of my reputation. she wanted to protect this beautiful wife of mine from may. -- from me. so this woman came to me and said, ok, i see you. i see you. you see?hat do i said, i just danced. this is all i did. she said i want you to know that you don't play around with this one if you're not serious, just move on. years later, several years later, sherry and i got married and she has been the love of my life. she is american. her mother was born in nigeria.

she came here frequently. her mother is from vermont but she was born in nigeria. brian: what is the origin of your three daughter's names. okey: i have two sons and a daughter. brian: my apology i thought they were all daughters because they all have a similarity. my oldest son, we call him chibu for short. it means god. there are three or four words for god. one is chibu, one is chi, and one is alisa and the other one is chineke. my oldest one, that means god is my strength. my favorite daughter, i call her that because she is my only daughter. my son is 24. my daughter is 21. chi whicher's name is

eans "god is wonderful." and the younger son's name is kitibe. my father had just died. before my son was born. my son was born after my father died so as an honor to my father, whom i really revered, i named him. ourwe sort of, some of friends say they are the three chi's because chi is the beginning of their names. brian: how old is the youngest? okey: 19-years-old. brian: what are they doing? okey: they are all in college. my oldest son goes to central connecticut university where my wife teaches.

he is finishing his education. he took a couple of years to travel in peru. he went to peru to learn spanish language and fell in love with the country and a young woman. [laughter] okey: it took two years to do that. my daughter is finishing at uconn. the baby of my family, is an eastern connecticut university. brian: what is the difference between a nigerian born person and your children who are nigerian descent. born and raised in the united states. do you see a difference in their approach to people, their interests? okey: nigerian born children? , between you and the

three kids. okey: definitely. in america, children are encouraged to have a voice. early on. in nigeria, children are encouraged to have a voice by you have a voice within the world of children. in nigeria, i wasn't allowed to speak to my parents unless i was invited to speak when they asked me questions. now, my children have a much mee free relationship with then my parents did. my parents used corporal punishment quite a bit at home and i received it at school as well. that was part of the mechanics of my shaping. and it is not something that i remember with any regret at all.

what corporal schmidt would have been? okey: i was caned quite a bit. both at home and at school because i was a difficult child growing up. the cane was not spared. i will tell you a very interesting story. i never gave a reading in my home state. so my mother, whenever i would travel to south africa or italy or great britain, my mom kept saying to me, what do you do at these readings? i said that i talk to these people. i respond to questions after i read the book. then i sign books. finally, december 2014. i happened to be visiting

nigeria and there was a quick book reading, it was arranged. it was broadcasted live on state radio. i was ambushed because they invited my mother to introduce me. on air, my mother starts telling people, well, you love my son, he is popular in my country because i write a column that takes a very unsparing view of corruption in nigeria but she says, this son of mine was so difficult and such a delinquent as a child that my late husband and i used a cane to cane sense into him and so when it came time for me to speak i jokingly said to my mother, you have just confessed that you of used me as a child so i am going to sue you. and she says to me, will the bible says if you spare the rod you spoil the child.

i said i will file a lawsuit in america and american judges don't read the bible. why ie a column called will sue my mother. people in nigeria said why would you want to see your mother? of course i was pulling around. brian: did you use corporal punishment with your children? okey: i was starting. more stern then american parents but no. brian: i read that you did not sleep in a bed for a long time. you said you were poor. explain what the world was like for you when you were growing up. when did you start sleeping in a bed? okey: i didn't sleep in a bed until high school. i went to a boarding school. throughout the time i was home, when i came home on holiday, i slept on a mat. we actually were not aware of growing up.

so in a lot of ways, my sense of poverty comes from a retrospective. casting a glance backward. so, my life was magical in a lot of ways because i became an early lover of books. my parents encouraged us to read. in fact, they demanded that we read. my mother was a schoolteacher. brian: you read in english? okey: yes, we read in english. and so, but then, they were like rice. you see? like today, you can go anywhere in the world and get rice. there is very little regard for rice. but i looked forward to sunday as a child because that was the day my parents would make rice. it was a rarity. on christmas, easter, some other traditional feast.

i looked forward to those because there would be a lot of rice eaten with chicken and good meat. so to me it was like magic. so the lack that we had made every little gift economy even more pronounced. more resonant. so we looked forward to birthdays because on our earth is perhaps two or three of us would share a bottle of soda. and we would drink it all day. ped it and put it down because it was so rare. and so it was magical for you. i did not see myself as poor. even though i went to school, i had classmates and schoolmates who had parents who are wealthy. and so they could have soda every day.

definition ofe wealth to me. this kid can drink a soda a day. i could drink one soda every few months. if i was lucky. and usually two or three of us sharing a bottle. my father was a postal man, my mother was a schoolteacher. brian: what kind of money did they make? okey: they made very little money. in america, elementary school teachers get paid better than professors actually. and i would imagine those in post offices in this country earn a fair living. in nigeria, it was not the case. my parents did not have a car. not until just before my mother retired. she got a loan to buy a car.

once that was gone, that was the entirety of their involvement with the automobile owning class. so most of my years, we had to take public transportation everywhere we went. or you walked to wherever you went. brian: the story of your arrest, when did it happen and what were the circumstances? okey: do you mean the arrest by the nigerian government or the arrest and this country? 10 days after i came to this country, i was at a bus stop. headed to umass amhearst. to meet with a nigerian president who was actually with the magazine i came here to edit. the titlee of course of the book "never look an american in the eye" was from

wooden uncle gave to me. he said, do not look at american in the eye because they will shoot you if you look them in the eye. us stop. was at the i was aware that traffic had stopped. and somehow, i looked right in front of me and a police officer happened to look at the same time and our eyes met. i remembered my uncle's advice. i made a dramatic gesture of looking away so that is opposite so the officer would not shoot me. even though i looked away, i was watching him in the corner of my eye. i went to a side street. i thought i had lost him. about a minute or two later, i got a tap on the shoulder hand i turned around to see somebody in uniform. he says to me, sir would you mind coming to the back of the bus stop. there was a plexiglass covered

crowded bus stop. december 20 3, 19 88. and so for a moment, in nigeria, no police officer would say to police officerno would say to you "do you mind" they would pull, push or shove it where they wanted. i said, this man was deferential. calling me sir. was polite, sohe i came to the back of the bus stop. everybody turned around. i was very aware of everybody looking. he foldeds officer, his arms and looking down at me he says, sir, you know this is about. i said no i don't know. we went back and forth.

finally, i was avoiding eye contact. he said that if i didn't want to come, problems. he said there has been a bank robbery. and i fit the description. now my heart began to crank up. because i did not know with the legal system was, what law enforcement, what idea was. whether they would frame me and so on? anyway, i told the officer that i had just arrived in america. i had not been inside a bank, i had not opened a bank account. he said to me, do you have identification? i said no. he said why not. i said, because my only form of id was my passport. i was told it was risky to carry it around, i might lose it. he said to me, do you mind if i frisk you? but somehow i figured out at "frisk"int that whatever

meant, i had little choice in the matter. he said to put my hands up. he patted me down. since i had no weapons of mass or single distraction, he said do you mind if i take you to your residence? i would like to see your passport. so he drove me to the residence. there were two children there who were spending the christmas holiday with me. i walked in and spoke to them and said, i have been arrested for bank robbery. i went to my room, brought my passport and he checked and he kept talking on his walkie-talkie. after a while, i was surprised to show that i was not the man that they were looking for. he handed me my passport etc. and said thank you for being a gentleman.

mind said to him, do you dropping me back up at the bus stop? i was a way that a lot of people saw him picking me up. and i knew that the narrative in town would be that this guy is from nigeria and he is some kind of criminal. he was arrested. i wanted people to see the officer drop me off at the bus stop so that there would be accountability for the narrative in town. people would say that they saw him drop me off at the bus stop as well. maybe officer is his friend. brian: another writer that you talk about in your book. i will show you here. okey: we were close, very close. brian: if you still alive? okie: he is still alive. [begin video clip]

>> one of the things that we are very good at an nigeria is names. it begins from the traditional languages. when you see names like god's will, godspell, good luck, blessing, there is one in muslim -- one relation whose name i absolutely refuse to call. "sweetheart." i say to him, give me your traditional name. i will never call anyone sweetheart. brian: did anyone ever call you sweetheart? okey: no but blessed is huge these days. there is friday, there is promise, precious. brian: did you ever have another "okey"?ides it as

okey: i have a lot of names. brian: like? okey: i was born on a sunday. so, my name there was different. it means somebody born on a sunday. i am roman catholic. on confirmation, i get the name of peter. i took the name peter. my baptism name is anthony. my praise name that my family gave to me is different. who cares tobody push, as it were. brian: what happened to your nigeria personality since you were in the united states? okey: it has been enhanced in some ways. i'm not sure if there is a nigeria personality to begin with. brian: i don't either. [laughter] okey: but whenever i was when i

came to this country, it has been enhanced in some ways. for example, i take most of my meals as nigerian meals. you see? brian: witches? okey: i make what nigerians call soup. that is not the same as the american conception of soup which is something you eat with a spoon. soup in nigeria is what you eat with a grain. some kind of a grain that has a consistency and hardness. you scoop the soup and you actually swallow the grain. , i make soup. soup.ent nigerian i make tomato stew. what americans would call a

sauce. so i make a very flavorful tomato sauce with red peppers and tomatoes, i love that. i love spice. i like to sweat when i eat. i call it the moral equivalent of going to the gym. i eat a meal that nigerians would identify with. even though the ingredients have changed since i came to america. somebody told me he went home to nigeria and a friend wanted to give him a treat and took him to a kfc. i avoid such things. don't eat, when americans invite me to a meal and say it is going to be pizza i.e. at home so i can eat politely, just a slice of pizza. me andoes not interest

neither does hamburgers or sandwiches. i like to eat nigerian. i also cherish very much. i am on the phone quite a bit to people in nigeria because i like to hear the language, i like to hear the politics and the language of the place. i like to follow affairs back home. so i have become more intensely interested in nigeria since living in america. brian: do you still write a column? okey: yes, it is widely circulated online. for a nigerian newspapers. that is the column that gets me into trouble with the nigerian government. brian: you say in your book that you do not like american tv, talk shows and news. why? okey: i came to this country and encountered the talkshow programs where it was shocking

to find that it will come out on television to tell their best friend that they slept with their wife or girlfriend. i come from a culture where that confessional mode is frowned upon. the very idea of doing something wrong and choosing to have some kind of infamy out of it, some kind of mileage out of it. i am going to be on the jerry springer show. and i am going to call out my sister or my brother in say i slept with your mother, just baffling.me to be, it still seems baffling to me. brian: i want to show some video that is out of context with

everything we have been talking about and ask you why you like this stuff. okey: i know where you are going. [laughter] brian: here we go. wrestling, why do you like this? okey: this is what got me interested in america. first of all look at their size, look at what they can do. that man could lift their legs and hit somebody with both legs at a time, and could jump from the top of the top rope and land on another man without smashing the man to bits. so when i first encountered american wrestling on nigerian television, i was fascinated. so it is still one of my guilty

pleasures. the few occasions that i watched television and see wrestling, i spent some type -- time on it. my wife can't understand it, my children don't understand it, my friends don't understand it. when i came to this country, i wanted to go to a live wrestling show. i had a colleague that lived in boston and they said that this is all fake. this is choreographed. i said what do you mean? nobody could jump from so high and smash his body against another man it is choreographed. but i was worried that nobody was really killed right there in the ring. so, my cousin took me to boston ready closee stayed and i saw that when they hit you in the face, it was actually synchronized. they stand there and they hit you. but i still think it is great acting.

brian: the name of your book is "never look at american in the that is what you were told when you would come here. do you still think that? okey: of course not, i'm looking you in the eye. brian: when did that dissipate? okey: very quickly. many of my friends blessed me and sent me my way. i got all kinds of advice and one and said, i do not want you to marry a white woman. i said is there anything wrong with white women? she said, no, i just want somebody who will understand our language. then an uncle said don't look americans in the eye because every american carries a gun and they will shoot you dead. well it turns out later i found , out that my uncle for this -- formed to this impression

from watching western cinemas where our boys would gather together in a bar and exchange a few words. we never understood what they were saying but they would stare each other down and start shooting at some point and time. so that is why we formed that impression, that they would shoot you if you look them in the eye. as soon as i came here, especially after the encounter with the police officer, i told people what happened. they said the fact that he did , -- the fact that you did not make eye contact might have made him really suspicious of you. i said really? they said yes, you're supposed to look americans in the eye because otherwise you look shifty. so i began to look americans and the eye and nobody has shot me yet. brian: you have written two novels. names? "arrowse first one is

of rain." the second one was "foreign gods ." orporated brian: which you like best? okey: i like both of them for different reasons. brian: which was easier to write? okey: that comes up a lot. the memoir was easier because it was a recollection of events that happened. obviously, in the process of a collection, there is still stuff that goes on. you have to decide which details are important. it was to play up and which

ones to play down. my first novel was close to a memoir. the man was imprisoned after a war for coming to the united states and traveling elsewhere in the world. trying to persuade the government's not to sell weapons to the nigerian government. mainly because he was opposed to the war. the nigerian government imprison him for 24 months. brian: where does he live now? okey: he lives in nigeria. the joke that i shared with him was that he was 82 now. they travel constantly. odds are that as we speak, he is somewhere in the air, going to australia, china, israel, or france. brian: we are out of time.

this is a memoir and it is called, "never look an american n the eye." ♪ for free transcripts or give us your comments, is that us at -- qana.orgat