>> former illinois republican hasressman bob michael died. he was 93. he served in the house and was house minority leader for 18 years. he worked with ronald reagan and george h w bush push their legislation through congress. in 1988, he sat down for an american profile interview on his life and career. this is one hour. >> what is the difference between being the majority and minority? mr. michel: all the difference in the world. i'm probably not the best one to ask because as you well know, i will begin my 33rd year in congress, and every year has been in the minority party.

i can only work with -- look with envy at my calling across the aisle. you can pretty well guess, obviously the occasions that i lose, i would be a winner if i was in the majority. i went on more than the issues. if you got to be in the majority, would you do things differently? rep. michel: we have talked about how we would reform the house of representatives. there is no question we proliferated this place with committees, subcommunities and all that. the problem is that in an attempt to give everyone a piece of the action so they can make your show or somebody else's or get some visibility, we have gotten to the point where there are so many people in positions of some authority, but then

there is a saying that when we don't from them for the opposition party person's name, you just say mr. chairman or chairman, and you've got it because everyone is a chairman of something. the problem with the committee structure is that more committees there are, the more staff areas, the more staff there is, the more room that is required, more room required some of the more buildings. that tends to make us a bureaucracy on the hill, and four years ago when i first came to capitol hill, when i walked into the office, the member of congress from our district, he had a husband and wife team and another man and woman.

for people to run that job. he certainly made a mark in american history. that supportd all mechanism in those days. it has all grown. in those early days, i think we used to talk about 3000 people at capitol hill at most, the community. now it is nearly 20,000 when you take into account everybody. >> what impact did he have on your political career? rep. michel: he was my mentor. he represented our district for many years. he was losing his eyesight. sure whether or not he was going to be able to make the senate race, and that was against the majority leader of wassenate, scott lucas, who

from the district i now represent. very popular throughout the state. that was a race. irksen talked about blowing out to her three automobiles up and down the state. going into every little town and hamlet. ell stories about how his wife went with him and took notes. they did not even have drivers in those days. you drove your own car in your campaign. the thing really that helped him the old race was hearings in chicago. it was a crime investigating committee. if you didn't have the city of chicago's vote for democratic candidate running down state, that was devastating. that whole investigation unfolded at about the same time

as they told me that scott lucas would never talk to him about that. those things that i remember from the early days. looking back. edward turks and went on to the senate and became a distinguished member of that body. reading about your past, at one point you work working for a congressman. you had something to do with the house on un-american activities committee. a judge, andhe was prior to that during the course of the war, he had served in the fbi and had under surveillance some of the people out of the university of california and the whole communist conspiracy area at the time of the atomic bomb

and secrets being stolen. he wanted to come to congress to expose what he saw firsthand but heays felt was set upon when said those returns to the fbi. just thought the american people ought to be much more attuned to what was really happening in those days. then, of all things, when he got elected, the congress appointed un-americanouse of activities committee. meteroicmeteor a d -- rise. every day he was flashed across the front pages. there was so much publicity. nixonample, richard during the course of those hearings. senator potter.

he went to the senate from the house in michigan. house members from south dakota. they were on the committee and went to the other body. you had quite an exodus from the house to the senate. solely on the strength of the generate that we would on those first hearings that were covered so extensively on television. that gave a boost to me because my boss was so engrossed in that activity at let me go back home and pick around the edges and learn and do chamber of commerce speeches. he was so intensely interested in that, so much so that he had a primary opponent all four times he ran. >> this was as administrative assistant. days, heel: in those

said he knew every precinct person my name. it was very important to know the organization people. when i ran the first time, it was a spirited five-man race. that race. i've been reelected ever since. i didn't have any primary opposition until this year, an individual cannot to oppose the in the primary. i always said that after having gone through that earlier primary experience with my predecessor, one election every two years was enough, but to have a primary and a general every two years, just devastating. retired after four terms. -- does thatppened happen anymore? you have people who are tempted to make the race and be successful. them whoa number of

will not be successful. lyndon johnson was at one time an assistant. was anocratic whip assistant to bernie sisk of california. there were a number of them who frankly have had the experience or even run for the senate at one time. trent lott is another one. to think it is a good idea for people watching this who want to get into politics to come here first? rep. michel: the experience is of inestimable value. no question. are regardeds you as a washingtonian and seven in the districts. if you have lost your roots in your district and some members have thought that only needed to do was make a name for

themselves in washington and go back home and reestablish the residence, you are still perceived in some respects as a carpetbagger. in my case, i was continually going back and forth. when we began having children, they all went to school back in our district, so my writs were there, my home and all the rest. you have to be very careful about that. even in my last several thereons as a leader, have been the argument that i have been too ensconced in a leadership role in congress. all politics is local and have to keep ties to your district type. >> have you found yourself over the years getting farther away from the district than you would like? rep. michel: there is always

some danger to that degree, but this last time around that i ran, it was just like a freshman, i beat the bushes. we put over 30,000 miles on our wagon during the course of the campaign. district,a bigger parts of 16 counties, and said it six counties when dirksen had it. each time illinois have lost seats, because we -- the population shifts have been to our disadvantage in a state like mine, highly agricultural and nature. districts arehe geographically enlarged and tougher to cover. >> the un-american activities committee. given the mood of today, the president meeting with mr. gorbachev, was hard for you to

leave we would come as far as we have from the days when people were card-carrying communists? rep. michel: when i think back on the transformation of so many things during my tenure here in congress, is just amazing. what television has dumped the whole political scheme of things --our country it was in its in our country. it was in its infancy when i first came here. the explosion of that element into our political life. with respect to the soviets, they were perceived as the ungodly enemy. i don't know whether or not in those days we were well enough informed or gifted to proceed how this whole thing might unfold as it has.

i was fortunate enough to go to the soviet union in 1957 and i have been there three times since in an official capacity. i was one of the first to sit , and -- withbitol gorbachev, and to see the evolution of leadership in the soviet union since 3-4 years ago. -- there have been a lot of changes. military vehicles distinguish from civilian.

time i would return, you saw the military being diminished invisible proportions as distinguished from the element of more civilian transportation, cars, trucks, and the building. that took on a different form. card-carrying communists in this country -- i would assume. rep. michel: known about it. >> -- no doubt about it. admitted?hey rep. michel: they would revert to a constitutional right. it would not incriminate themselves in any testimony that might ultimately reached the court. >> what would be the difference if they had been? rep. michel: we have to enact that had to do with a communist

conspiracy and how you treated the suspect -- subject and those identified. or we going to let the communist party be a legitimate party in this country? we've had the socialists, the libertarian party. before that, as you will recall from your history. historicalack in nazis, and a rally in madison square garden in our own country in hitler's being in power. to think that was going on in to country is kind of hard bring your mind back to accepting the fact that it did happen in our own country. i will tell you that when it came to the communist

conspiracy, you have the network that had definitely infiltrated the communication mechanism of our country. that it isl well possible to mold public opinion by just a person here or there. even to the extent of having, ,or example, media postwar people exposed the treasury department and may have given currencyplates to the for replication in foreign countries. those were very serious times. -- theree who really would be those of more liberal persuasion who would say you're overreacting. you have that confrontation in our own country. i think as we look back,

historians will say there itinitely was a time when was there. and the thing i think that surprises me is that if i look back upon what was evident at that time and then go back some years before that to the devastating depression days, we had 25% unemployment. ripe for thatt kind of element to seize and take significant power in our country. amazingly, the strength of our constitutional system was so strong that even in the wake of that terrible conditions where .5% of our people were unemployed and on bread lines and on the street and all the rest, the system survived that test.

we work a strong as we are today. -- we were as strong as we are today. i suppose dedicated communists still think in terms of the competition that prevails between their system and ours, but i don't really think among emerging leaders you see that burning desire as we proceeded to be way back then to involve the entire globe. they were never going to be satisfied until it was all communist world. i think some of the more thoughtful individuals now think in terms of what is the accommodation between two different schools of thought? going to china, and being able to see the history, when kai-shek was a leader and pushed out of the mainland, i remember going over there.

taiwan was a topic in the news. they were bombing one day. if you ask school kids where they are, they won't know. there was a lot of sense -- sensitivity that burned the animosity there. kai-shek is gone now. a lot of historical events to which i have been a witness to. brian: what impacted getting -- what impact did getting wounded in world war ii have on you? rep. michel: i tell you, it just made you much more aware of what

war is all about. i saw the worst of it. brian: do you really remember it? rep. michel: yes, you do. when i first came back from the war and went back to college, whenever i would hear the backfiring of a car on the street i was jumpy. i remember our college classroom, the windows were open. the fraternities used to have some of these canons once in a while. one afternoon, i remember it so distinctly because my wife was in the same class. we weren't married at that time, but just happened to have the same class. i just hit the floor. it was a natural reaction you have if you have been in combat so long.

if anything, hit the ground. we were very naive. i was a young man and that time. we went off to war. brian: you were a private. rep. michel: yes. in the enlisted ranks. i came from a very religious family, and a very strict family. the tenets of the church, thou shalt not kill. the fraternities used to have if you were a formal member of the church, many of them went into noncombatant service. they served very ably in medical roles or something to that nature. i did not. i had a war with myself in my conscience at the time. it was one of those things that stuck with me during practically all that period of combat.

i have seen the worst of it. i participated in the worst of it. you are not pleased about it. you know you have to answer to your maker for what you've done. but i guess those of us who had to fight in war when we kill people, we rationalized it by looking to history and the wars that were fought, for what -- for freedom of expression, religious wars even. you say, how does it affect my life? i tell you, it affects my life to the degree that i know what the horrors are. i'm not a happy warrior out there. when the president was asked

what was his most difficult choice to make, i think his action was committing a young man to a combat situation. you cannot ever forget them. by the same token, you have to be levelheaded about it, too, and recognize i will still go back to a church setting. it is not the utopian world we would all like to dream of. that there's no need for armaments, no need for people defending themselves, because the need is still there. it is a constant kind of war that you still carry on, at least those of us who think strongly about it. brian: you went back to bradley university. if you had to list a number of things to impact your life up to that point, including the war,

what were the goals? rep. michel: i can't ignore my early childhood and the rearing i talked about with respect to my mother and father. i never heard my father use the word dosh -- gosh. he was offended when he heard that. brian: never swear. rep. michel: absolutely not. nor drinking or smoking. i was foreclosed from going to dances initially. i came from a very very strict environment. i tell you, what you did learn was the difference between right and wrong. my father was an immigrant from france. my mother never finished high school. she was a domesticate, she was the most gifted person in the

house. superlative cook, superlative sewer. the house was immaculate. things like that from the early day on -- i tell you, when i first came home and told my mom and dad i was seriously thinking of getting in the political arena, you can see their chin nearly had the kitchen table. you are going to get involved in this dirty, nasty, bucking game of politics after the way we brought you up? in their mind they perceived the political arena as something that you just didn't get that close to. brian: what had impacted you that you wanted to get into it? rep. michel: well, when i told my folks, you complain about this or that, that it isn't right, but under our system it is the strength of the kind of

people who participate in it. you can't just shy away from it. frankly, the church environment which i grew up in it, the church took a very distant view of politics. that's one of the things again that has happened in our own country when you get more and more people of church orientation and religious orientation involved in the process. only within the last few years do i go back to the church i was brought up and talk about this experience i have had in the political arena. is it possible to walk the straight and narrow in the political arena? i'm happy to say that some of the very finest, nicest, wonderful, most honorable people i met had been in the political arena. every once in a while something

goes bad. but it brings us back to the whole house of representatives, how it's a whole microcosm of the entire country. we would like to have it be absolutely pure and utopian, but it isn't. brian: back to the beginning, where did you get your interest in politics? rep. michel: in school, i was always managing somebody's campaign or running for homeroom president. i think in high school i was an officer in some of the classes. in college i think each year i was an officer. i really never thought of it in terms of a vocation. i thought of it more in terms of advocation. one of those things you did. if there was a real key decision in this whole business, it was

the late president of the university who called me in one day, bradley, and said, "what are you going to do after graduation?" in that day, used the term big man on campus. he said he had a friend running for congress. he said, i think you should go down and have an interview, he looking for a man. from what i've have jerked -- observed, you're the kind of individual he was looking for. he said he had a friend running until that time, i had absolutely no idea for sure what i wanted to do. i was thinking more in terms of the insurance industry in business, because i like dealing with people, maybe selling. that seemed to be where i was headed. but after i had that interview,

and having no knowledge of how to write a press release, the judge said, "after graduation, i would like to have you come aboard. we can only pay you 30 bucks a week." of course, my wife had finished bradley a year before i did. even though being younger because of my three and a half years during the service, we never knew one another before the war. that was a key decision. the key element was meeting my wife in bradley and the music school, where she was an accomplished pianist. she played for me in my senior concert. probably ended up with a minor in music when it was all over. we got married the december after the election in 1948. she had to complete her teaching contract into the next february.

i came down to washington in january of 1949 with the expectation that it would last a year. my wife and i would go to chicago for a quick honeymoon. the day after christmas, we were married. incidentally our 40th anniversary coming up the day after christmas this year. it will be like a honeymoon, go to washington. i had no idea what it was like. i had been there two different times during the course of the war. one time on the train coming through, and another time i forget what the occasion was, but i remember walking down the

streets of pennsylvania avenue. it was this time, not the. it was going to be harry truman. seeing the grandstanding going up and wondering what this was going to be about. i stayed at one of the hotels where the old fbi agents used to, one of the more reasonable hotels. it was on the hill. and the walk down the avenue and to see the lights of the capital when i came back, and every night for 30 years i was just so enthralled with being in the nation's capital and what that all meant. and me, little bob michel, who got transformed from peoria out to the washington scene. i have never forgotten that.

brian: you say that your parents were nonpolitical. how did you get your interest even in high school and college in being a class officer? rep. michel: i don't know, just that i was always kind of an outgoing person. i had twin sisters who were younger than i was. i don't know, it was just one of those things. i like people and always got along fairly well with them. i thought i was a problem child. i was just talking to someone about the number of spankings i got when i was a kid and how dad used to use the razor strap. and my driver said that back in my days we used to use the belt. i remembered for me it was the razor strap.

that was tough. i came home with a c, that punishment was march of stairs without any supper. you wouldn't think of some of those corporal punishments in family life today, but that was the kind of environment which i was raised. i remember my principal once giving me a whipping for setting one of my fellows on the water fountain as a prank in grade school. you did well this things as you usually do, not terribly serious, but a prankster. brian: did your parents disagree with you being in high school and college politics? rep. michel: never. mother was active in the pta. for the big resale, she would cook. she is to sew -- used to sew quilts. i remember when it was so bitter

cold and the 1930's, 20 or 30 below zero. he used to take the time to walk. school was about four blocks. she would come halfway to meet us ensuring we would make it home all right without freezing. you didn't drive in those days are anything. dad and mom were always very attuned to make sure that we were cutting it in school. if we let down, that was the most serious thing, if we didn't buckle down. of course, i worked too. in high school i did a lot of yard work. i had everything locked up and down the street, $.35 a yard. i learned how to press pants and

sew cuffs. when one of the guys needed mending or a patch, that was my job. i was also a paperboy. i wasn't content with one paper. i had two morning routes and an evening round. in those days we had competition. the carriers actually went out to help sell the paper. my pitch was because i came from an industrial community like peoria. i got so good at it that i had two morning routes i thought i could cover.

admittedly in the early days my father would help me with the sled when the papers were so heavy. in the wintertime he would help me on sunday because the papers were bigger. brian: where did the saying "how does it play in peoria" come from? rep. michel: i guess it came from the vaudeville days. it was a river and a show town. i think it really goes back to those days, how will this thing play in peoria, a typical it was a river and a show town.

midwestern city down there on the river. going back to the early days, when they established the creek, just opposite the city. of course, we had indians. but then the city, it was amazing, larger than the city of chicago. it had to emanate from those good old vaudeville days. brian: it still a great cross-section of america? rep. michel: peoria was one of

those places where you could go to see how products sell, like procter & gamble. that was advertising agencies picked up the beginning of that. brian: you know a lot of presidents. which president have you known the best. rep. michel: of course, gerry ford and i are good friends from his having been a leader in the house. and president nixon before, we were in the same section, and when he was vice president and president i got to know him. i also got to learn between nixon and ford a great deal. it has helped me with subsequent

presidents. i was in the cabinet room the night nixon resigned. i took the notes. dean burch came in, and after it was all over, there really wasn't anybody who had transcribed notes. i pulled the note out of my pocket and scrawled things on the back of the envelope, and the next day fleshed it out. some years later i sent them onto the former president. that was my recollection of that evening. i called it a room full of tears. there were several conservative democrats who the president felt close to in the house like tiger teague, and on our side some of the more conservative members. that was a very traumatic moment

for me to be a part of that historical event when the former president had to resign. brian: was that the night he announced his resignation? rep. michel: yes. he left the room, and went out within five or 10 minutes he would be on the air to make that announcement. brian: did he tell you? rep. michel: i went back to the notes. he walked into the room in his typical rather stiff mannerism. notes. he came around the cabinet room to the president's chair and visibly shaken, but you know, when you try to recapture that

moment of what must've been going on in his life. frankly, he went back to recap his mother's attitude and his early childhood. i can't recall specifically some of the things without going back to my things that i enumerated at the time, but it was a very moving kind of thing. brian: one of the most memorable evenings you've ever had? rep. michel: the kind of things you never forget. but in the historical

perspective, back to the original question, which president did you know the best, i guess i really didn't know richard nixon as well as i maybe should have or would have, or whatever. when you were in the leadership and a junior member of congress, bailey said there's one person who might have made a difference during watergate. that would have been everett dirksen. if you recall when dirksen died, richard nixon gave one of the most moving eloquent eulogies for anyone that i've ever heard. i've got it engraved in brass in my office on the wall. and a junior member of congress, bailey said there's one person who might have made a difference during watergate. it is a superlative eulogy for one who serves in public life. that was richard nixon speaking of everett dirksen. we will have the 20th anniversary of his death. if he had lived, he would have been the only person to go to the president and tell him what to do. you can picture the language which we can't use here, but he would say, you fire them. they did you a disservice. one thing i did notice in the waning nixon days that the circle of friends and advisers kept shrinking, maybe due to the times.

i think if i were to assess any president, whenever you see that happening to the president rather than the circle of friends and advisers enlarging, you are in for trouble. i really learned the difference between ford's limited administration and nixon's administration to let it all hang out by which the mechanism you serve your president. it is a superlative eulogy for one who serves in public life. don't hold anything back. don't ever bamboozle them. don't create favorite just telling him the things he wants

to hear, because that does not serve the president well. while i did not have the association with carter that i had with nixon or limited with kennedy, it was a very warm and cordial relationship or eight years. i remember the first time he gathered us together before he was sworn in with howard baker and myself, it was in the executive office building. it was the first meeting. i told him that i have learned something from your predecessors. i will be your leader in the house of representatives and i just want you to know that i'm going to let you all know whenever you ask me. if it's critical or derogatory, or something that you would not necessarily like to hear, bear in mind that i think that's the way i serve you best. you are going to get it straight from you every time. i think presidents always

appreciated that. we had our little going away thing in the florida house, you told us, mr. president, that you know we want to discussing politics in our cabinet meetings. we will be discussing the important meetings of the day and how best to meet those. i was wondering how you divorce that political decision from the decision that has to be made. but i have learned that just doing what's right with all the arguments at hand, that's the best politics. brian: what's the toughest thing you ever had to tell him? rep. michel: oh, gosh. boy.

well, there were issues sometimes when we knew we didn't have the votes. but you just have to tell him that it isn't there. and then maybe the one time that i voted to override his veto on a highway bill. i like to keep my record pretty but you just have to tell him clean with the leader. we had a couple difficult moments on the tax bill. jack kemp and i were in support of the president's position, even when he said you don't know it's not the bill we want, we will acknowledgment. but has it in the house here and get it to the other body where we might keep it alive. my friends went the other way

because there were those negatives as adopted initially clean with the leader. by the house that they could not take. we thought the whole tax bill might very well be dead. were we going to keep it alive? the split on the side was pretty traumatic for us. brian: is ronald reagan different in private than what we have seen in public? rep. michel: i don't know, not much. he's a remarkable individual. just warm and cordial, and

never, i have never, ever heard him -- except in the most mildest way -- talking in disparaging tones about an opponent or the adversary. he has just been able to go and take it and come back again. i don't think he is one to ever hold grudges, other than he has been mannerism of pursing his lips and saying, "well, you forced me into that position two years ago and i don't intend to get put in that position again." that's about the most i've heard out of him. that was when it came to texas. that was when it came to texas. -- taxes. i was had. i don't intend to be had again. that's the way it would come out

with ronald reagan. his ability to have the american people so supportive of him for such an extended period of time, i suspect when the president leaves office in a few weeks, it will be in excess of 65%, maybe 70% popularity. phenomenal given all the things he has been through. brian: speaking of adversaries, what is the difference in your relationship with tip o'neill and jim. rep. michel: tip o'neill and i have a special relationship.

we both like to play golf and cards. he was such a great storyteller. i have to be envious of my contemporaries who were such good joke tellers. the president, of course, absolutely phenomenal. another gift, turn a tight moment and lighten it up a little bit. with tip, we knew and another for an extended time. it was just kind of automatic that we would have to be adversaries during the work hours and still be the good little bit. with tip, we knew and another for an extended time. it was just kind of automatic friends after work was concluded. it remained that way until he left. i did not know the current speaker as well as i knew tip o'neill personally. left. i guess all of us are it comes of our own individual body chemistry from time to time. jim wright is a different

individual than tip in a number of ways. for me having served one term is distinguished from three terms or six years with tip as leader, and then i was whip before that. it will take some time for me to know this speaker as well as i knew tip o'neill. what was really in his mind, i don't know what -- how to make that assessment. brian: was it difficult when you know somebody that well to be adversarial way it comes to something? rep. michel: there were those in my own party who said that you know this speaker to well to be nasty at times. we think at some time you ought to express your anger more than you do. i remember those days when another good friend of mine, one

of our real superlatives leaders, he and john mccormack used to go at it on the floor of the house. but i was always pretty to those moments when i saw speaker mccormack and johnny and carl albert in just the nicest kind of setting personal relationship wise. one of the things that help me was when i was everett dirksen's congressman. he was leader in the senate. he would invite me to the shop. i was in the back room and he would have those members coming back from time to time. with a little refreshment, and talking.

those were very, very educational times for me. sometimes it wasn't always his republican friends. he was always one to always reach out to those across the aisle. you can't sit there and be privy to that dialogue and conversation without picking up something. that must have been very helpful to him when he needed it. brian: only got about a minute and a half left. are you going to run again for congress, and how long do you intend to be leader? rep. michel: [laughter] on the last question, you ask my members on how long they put up with me. but on the night of election, we won pretty handsomely by 55%. that was against the opponent who gave me a tougher race six years ago in the throes of the recession and a new district. i just made it quite clear that i intend not to run again.

then come i think not knowing on that evening -- well, i guess i didn't know at that time of the evening that george bush pretty much had it wrapped up. i'm not sure i would have said it that way had i thought the caucus was going to be the president. i said earlier on, if the caucus is president, i will have no leverage whatsoever. i'm not sure how that will unfold. it will be tough. i would have to assume with caucus winning, we lose seats in the house and we would be deeper in the minority that we are, but george bush will win and i would retain the leverage i had with ronald reagan, hopefully in greater amounts with increased members. we ended up losing three, so it's on the margin.

but it is leverage. it still makes those of us in house in a minority a meaningful minority, given on occasion to house in a minority a meaningful minority, given on occasion to winning some. with that kind of hope and expectation, as long as they will have me as their leader and as i feel i can do a good job for my district and the troops here, i would like to do it. i enjoy it. i'm in good health. it was just fortunate for me that i got started as young as i was so i did not have to stomp over people gravitating toward the top. i could do it in a very measured sort of way, making friends along the way. a good part of this legislative process is how many friends do you have in a time of need?

[laughter] brian: thank you for your time. rep. michel: good to be with you. >> illinois senator durbin also marked the passing of bob michel on the senate floor. here are his remarks. senator durbin: every politician alive should aspire for that moment like bob michel when the last words of tribute to his public service are he was the face of decency and public service. this morning, bob michel, who served as leader of the u.s. house of representatives for the republican party, passed away at age 93. his replacement as republican leader in the house marked the end of an era of civility. congress has never been the same. but his life as the son of an

immigrant, as a decorated veteran of world war ii, as a person who was first a staffer, then elected to congress, then rose to leadership is a testament to his talent and his commitment to america. i've known bob michel for 35 years. we had adjoining congressional districts down state. when i was elected in 1982, in the reagan off-year election, it was a tough year for republicans. bob michel barely survived. attorney doug be stevens of peoria had about 48% and bob had 52%. lane evans of the quad cities was elected to congress and i was as well. and so for 14 years, we were neighboring congressmen. bob michel came in and campaigned for my opponents. i went in his district to campaign for his opponents. you would think