[indiscernible] >> tonight on c-span, a discussion about sexism in the workplace. discusses aecretary new report on providing end-of-life care to terminal lists.

c-span's washington journal is live every day with issues that impact you. coming up saturday morning, the president and ceo of an alliance joins us to discuss educational issues impacting today's youth. then a resident scholar will talk about her wall street journal on combating america's opioid epidemic. at the smithsonian's magazine, josh hammer will discuss the challenges facing refugees fleeing to america. be sure to watch c-span's washington journal live at 7:00 a.m. on saturday morning. join the discussion. >> c-span, where history unfolds daily.

in 1979, c-span was created as a public service by america's cable companies. it is brought to you today by your cable or satellite provider. >> this year, students told us the most urgent issue for the new president and congress. our second prize high school winner is an 11th grader from phoenix arizona. is a student at the metropolitan arts institute. reformumentary on ponzi is titled a heart for teaching. take a look. i came up with a four step process.

alledge push me past the thisn't point describe the classroom seen today let's be real here guys, -- it down -- nine what word told un? it is son ♪ continuing on with the story, [indiscernible] the one thing i think president and congress could do is to focus on our teachers. their preparation, development, their ensuring in

classrooms they have the proper support systems to be successful. ♪ >> we are seeing lower numbers of young people wanting to become teachers. is probably ahere couple reasons for that. one is that it hasn't been an easy profession in recent years. with the recession, and lack of resources owing to schools. a lot of changing policies across the country.

i think, without adequate support an opportunity for learning and growing, it is hard for somebody to want to stay in that environment. >> is the fact that a teacher walks into a school and doesn't feel supported. they don't feel like the administration is behind them, like they have their back, like they are going back to them with parents -- going to bat with them with parents or community. teaching is really hard if you don't have that support system. >> when you look like the amount of -- when you look at the amount of education training they go through and hours pouring into these gives life, i don't think we compensate them adequately. toy should be compensated what's comparable professions are paying. -- what's comparable professions are paying. teachers are the most

important factor within schools. it's determining whether kids are going to do well, get ahead. if you want to get a good quality workforce, you need to pay it forward. >> things like expecting teachers to pay for their own masters degree or their own professional development, their own resources for furthering learning, we tend to put that back on the educator rather than the institution supporting the teacher. [speaking spanish]

lack many cases with the of resources across the nation in recent years, they have over 30 to 35 students at different reading levels. students with very different needs across the board. often times, it is just the one teacher with no help. she's trying to meet the needs of all these kids. that's setting them up to fail. >> but we should be thinking about doing in this area of shortages, is not just reacting more flexibly to getting bodies at the classrooms, but instead, to proactively put in place

pathways that we need to solve the problem once and for all. >> something that could be used to make things better for teachers is having the support system. if you have troubles with cluster management, you need to find a solution through national development -- professional development. that is going to make your teacher better for you and your students, for the parents, and your fellow teachers. for reprieve,e you show us your committed to public education, committed to being an educator, we are going to back you up. i think we should take care of them on the front end and trust them that they can own their craft and make viable pathways for people that want to be teachers and are committed to the profession. and have a heart for teaching. >> another area would be teacher preparation.

when a teacher walks out of a program, they need to know how to use those things that they learned. teacher improving preparation programs making them regress, making student teachers cooperative teachers in the learning process. the science of teaching is vital. >> visit studentcam.org.

>> a panel of bloggers and activists discuss sexism in the workplace and how women should respond to sexual harassment. this is hosted by new york university and the american association of university women. it is an hour and a half. > it's my pleasure to welcome you to the auditorium for the event. ofwill present a series paneled conversation through october 17. please join us online or in person for this discussion inies to fight gender bias

your about, and your workplace, and activism. this is entitled the f word. how to be a feminist in the workplace. today's discussion will be focused on women navigating their feminist at work. it is my pleasure to welcome this next speaker who will introduce the panel. [applause] great, thanks michael. .ello everyone thank you so much for joining us today. for our second discussion, panel series from both nyu washington, d.c. and aauw. as michael said, this second panel is titled, the f word. how to be a feminist in the workplace. the f word we are referring to here is a little different than you might be thinking. we are referring to feminism.

that iarrassed to say didn't admit to myself that i was a feminist until my sophomore year of high school. that's shocking considering the amount of time that i spent on the basketball court trying to and two others that i was just as good as the guys. like many women, i was afraid of labeling myself as a feminist for fear of being judged. sensesater, i came to my and i realized the importance of feminism. specifically intersectional feminism. in college, i majored in women's studies. i actually brought and aauw student organization to w. to fight for women's equality. i have theg for them honor of fighting for women's rights every single day. other women i know are not so

lucky. aauw created our #stand up to encouragepaign to both women and allies to stand against sexism and share how and why they do that. video that has helped aauw spread this important message. >> i think the stages that, do you agree ">> i agree.

>> don't be so emotional. women are natural leaders. you should smile more. let's face it, women have heard it all. especially in the workplace. , barriersearch report gendered explains that micro-aggressions like these contribute directly to the gender leadership cap. even small sexist comments hurt women's confidence and evaluate

and work. everyday sexism doesn't stand alone. it often comes coupled with able-ism, racism, ageism, trans-phobia, homophobia, you name it. what can we do as a society to make women's professional lives better? how can we combat sexism at work and beyond? exists for women to push past sexism. in various locations. one of the hurdles of addressing is, first, identifying it and then starting a conversation to stop it. being a feminist and being a professional are not mutually exclusive. our experts on our panel today are going to share some insight into how everyone, regardless of gender can be a part of the change. now, it is my honor to introduce

the amazing, incredible panel assembled today. i will start with our moderator for the afternoon, nicole. general manager of telemundo washington, d.c. in richmond virginia. that -- next we have jennifer, writer of devilish.com. next, we have dr. avis jones, ofhor and founder and ceo the exceptional leadership institution for women. but we have patricia malloy who is an activist blogger and engineer. last but not least, we have susanna weiss, a freelance writer.

thank you everyone, nicole. >> it's a pleasure to be inresenting telemundo and be such an established panel. good afternoon. we appreciate everyone who is joining us be a livestream and watching on c-span. welcome. --is wonderful to see such a an amazing interest in this incredible topic. let's get right down to it. being a feminist in the workplace today, one of the main challenges in being a feminist is dealing with the daily occurrences of sexism. as we just had, sexism in the workplace takes many forms. coupled with able-ism and other isms. it's important to remember that sexism and discrimination can look different to each one of us as we are all from different

intersexual identities. we all really do want the acceptingto be more place. we will be discussing the challenges that each of us face and workplace from micro-aggressions to harassment and how to overcome them. so, susanna, i want to start with you. you wrote none gender issues, sex and relationship in women's health. you covered many topics relevant gethe panel, but to help us context, could you explain more about gendered micro-aggressions? sure, a micro-aggression is something that is not a very noticeable noticeable or obvious form of oppression. in the workplace, it might be something like using phrases like i.t. guys. out onlyple giving mail shirts making women feel excluded.

or, micro-aggression could be anything. a gendered micro-aggression would be a small action that people do all the time without realizing it. >> i would say without us even noticing. did take this happened about three times today. that happens and we are unconsciously unaware. >> patricia as a feminist writer, can you tell us how you incorporated your feminist ?atina identities >> it's going to become a thing after this. wither had a problem

merging all three. i felt like there was no way i could put aside my latina identity or my identity as a professional or my identity as a feminist. i always wanted to incorporate those three things into my activism. i did have a hard time finding a place that understood what that meant or what that look like. when it come time to join circles, it was either this is a feminist thing, or it's an endearing thing. i had to create and carve out my own space. i started doing that with my own blog and writing about intersections. it was never one of the other. it was always although the things that happen to me. little by little, it became more affected. i still heavily identify mostly with feminist circles that are intersexual -- intersectional

because they allow me to express my other identities and be my. . >> that's great. you find you are often having to chose one space or another? i know you have identified your own space, but when you go into the work we might have a male dominant population, do you have to choose what space to walk in? >> it does happen often. i would lie if i said i'm all the time all three unashamed, i think when it comes to my workplace, it's very hard for me to just be a full out latina feminist and talk about racism and micro- aggressions in all of these things that i would perhaps talk about in feminist circles so i try to focus more on stem issues. i talk about statistics and women in stem and race in stem. i try to use numbers. it is a way to kind of bring a little bit of that, a little bit

of my latina and feminist activism into the stem world. likewise, it happens in other circles. i have to think about how i speak in the language i use and what will get people's attention. it's part of being an activist. i feel if i'm not making an effort to get my audience invested and interested in my message that i'm not doing a good job. >> i think it makes for a dynamic conversation in the fact that you have so many pools to choose from. i think it's an art to be able to pull together who you need to be at that moment to heighten or further your agenda. congratulations on that. i'll move over to doctor avis. you are diversity, equity and inclusion specialist and a career strategist. you have built your career helping women achieve goals and personal goals. it doesn't appear there's much of a demand for men's career strategist. this

profession will look different for men clients. what does the need for your profession, helping women, what does that say about institutionalized sexism in the workplace. >> it says that it is institutionalized. it's normalcy. it has a lot to do with micro- aggressions and the reality of unconscious bias and how that proliferates our culture. really, when people think of the word leader, most people, the image they have undermined is a man and more typically a white male. when we talk about piercing through that paradigm and asserting themselves and being respected as leaders in the workplace, it takes a little bit more maneuvering and more advanced thought and what men have to put into it. it's this extra burden that women bear when it comes to being able to navigate their way

to leadership or just navigate their way in male-dominated professions. there are different skills associated that women have to take on this extra burden to learn in order to be able to achieve positions that they are well qualified for and deserve to be in in the first >> jennifer as a business owner, it looks like you operate in almost an entirely female world. do you still encounter sexism in that area. >> first i would like to say what a great pleasure that is. the first decade of my career was not like that. existing in a career made up of almost all women is fantastic. i enjoy it. it's refreshing like a cool feminist beverage. it couldn't be better. one thing i really

enjoy about it, for instance there have been a lot written about how women apologize too much. we should stop apologizing so much. and changes it so we don't apologize too much. do we apologize too much? canadians apologize a lot but it's not a problem when they stay in canada. it's only a problem when one nadine comes to america and is apologizing here. there's so much that's just culturally that doesn't have a literal meaning. when you say have a good day, you know, there are so many niceties that we engage in that are not intended for literal meaning. i feel like when i'm working in an office with two employees, it's an office/warehouse so we are

bumping up against each other physically getting things out of boxes and bumping up and it's constantly sorry, sorry, sorry and everyone's doing it. it's not a problem. when you say sorry it doesn't mean like i feel like i don't deserve space in the world like i've done something wrong or i'm a bad person with low self-confidence, saying sorry is a social signal that says i would like to keep getting along with you. that's all it says. sometimes when you say thank you because you've just given the money for product, do you need to say thank you? no, but it's nice. you buy a doughnut in you and the person that you bought a doughnut from, you each say thank you like four times. nobody has low confidence. it's just a social signal that says i want this transaction to go smoothly and i would like this workplace to be pleasant and everything is good. i do feel

like obviously, not all women are the same but nevertheless, in an all female workplace, i do find that aspect maybe conforms to what you might expect. i do have to do business with men sometimes, it does happen. occasionally men come into the office and the like wow, it's warm in here. i'm not going to wear a sweater in my own office. it's nice to have a centering, women are the default here. in fact, in my online store, kind of a funny anecdote, we sell women's socks. i didn't bother to say women in front of the socks. then i started selling a few men's socks and women could buy thing for men. in any case i started getting mail customers buying the socks and just assuming that if they didn't have a gender they must be men's socks. i got customer-service e-mails and a guy was like i

bought all the socks and they were women's socks. i was like what makes you think they wouldn't be. you just bought socks from a feminist web store. just process the return. women are the default and i feel a little bit in the world is a nice thing. >> i have to agree with all that, and i think the conversation usually sways to how women hold women back. while you are right, i do that too. i say thank you or i'll say i'm sorry. no, you don't have to get apologize. that's a great way of saying it. it's not a weakness. it's just a social way of getting along much easier. >> my question to you is, for the purpose of identifying things that women can stop doing to each other, do you find in

your female space there are things we are doing to each other subconsciously or not? things that we shouldn't be doing, that were holding each other back and not really even knowing that were doing it. >> can i tell you an antidote about the last time i tried to have a business meeting with a dude. one thing that's nice about being in a feminist workplace is that i do business with men but i don't need it. there's a difference between them going into a job interview and i need this job and this guy wants to be my client, let's have lunch or something like that. i was having coffee with a guy about coming to teach a class in london and i thought that would be a cool opportunity and so i'll just skip to the good part, he asked me a bunch of pointed questions about where my child was. yep, that happened. i would like this is a coffee meeting. there's so many places a child could be for a

one hour meeting. so many perfectly safe places. anyway, that was very strange and so after that and a bunch of other bizarre personal questions, he went on to say, i love working with mothers. it sounds like it set up to be a compliment but by definition it will be a stereotype. i love working with identity groups. no, nothing good can come from that. stop talking. i'm just waiting for it. i love working with mothers and i was like please, tell me why. here's the answer because they expect so little and they're so grateful. >> i can't even begin to comment on that comment. the emphasis is made for tv, we will just move

on for that. thank you for the example which is very true in our everyday lives. i will open us up for the next couple questions for the panel. the title of this is the f word, how to be a feminist in the workplace. of course the f word, notwithstanding the last story is here to say feminist, how or why it is identifying, why is it that when we identify ourselves as feminists, it's almost frowned upon if you say you're a feminist. why do you feel it's like that? i guess i will start. >> i work in male-dominated fields were most of my meetings are devoid of any other women but myself. i found myself very afraid to use the word feminist around my coworkers. i think i probably went years without saying it. i was being very cautious about the word i would use when i have to travel for

presentation or panel so as like i have to talk about women and engineering or something. i got tired of feeling like i was walking on eggshells and i had to question why is it that i'm scared. i started realizing i was worried they would see me as angry, i thought i would be treated differently, i thought for sure, if she's a feminist and she's probably talking about us, believe me, they think i talk about them all the time, so i had to get this inner strength to be like i don't care what you think about me, i don't care what you think i do in my activism, i don't care that you read my writing because i'm not saying anything you don't experience every day because a lot of it is coming from your mouth. so little by little i

learned how to weave that kind of word into conversation. i would say this weekend i'm gonna go to a feminist conference and they would say oh, are you, and i would say yes i am. it was, i would say i kind of i think your wife would really enjoy it. you should tell her about it. i would definitely get a lot of side eye and size and concerned looks, and eventually it just became, that's just the feminist in the office and i was absolutely okay with it. it felt freeing to finally be like this is who i am, and i did find they were a lot more careful around me after i came out as a feminist. it was like this big deal. i remember thinking about it the night before thinking on many use the word feminist in a sense today in my office. after that, i changed something. there

definitely thought about their actions a lot more. when they would say something sexist in front of me, i just had to look at them. they were like i know, okay, i apologize. i was like yeah, you should. it was just kind of like that scolding look all the time. not that i wanted to become everybody's feminist in the office. >> i think people are so afraid to call themselves a feminist because a lot of people don't know what feminism means. when i said it people will say but you seem pretty feminine where

what's your problem with men, and so, if people's image of a feminist is somebody who hates men and is out to get everyone, then of course they're not going to like it if you say you're a feminist so part of it is educating people that feminism means you believe in equality and yes that does mean man will have to give up some of their privilege so you don't have to water down and say not all men are against women, we shouldn't have to do that because sexism exists even if it's not all men, but we shouldn't have to cushion our language, but we should, we need more awareness that feminism is about equality and things aren't equal now and once they can see that things aren't equal, they're not looking to become female supremacists or something, they're just looking to have an even playing field. >> doctor eva, on a very random

note, have you ever been asked to plan a holiday party or get a cake or something with birthday cards in an office environment. >> i haven't but it's not that much of an unusual thing. a number of women do experience that as if they are the office mommy role that they are expected to fill, and it's important to make sure people respect you as the professional that you are, to have that be the default burden of the requisite woman or only woman in the office shows once again the pervasiveness of institutionalized sexism in the culture and though there's nothing wrong if one wants to do that and it's your voluntary choice to do that once in a while, really it's very disappointing to see office cultures were that is the expectation. >> going back to you as a

business owner, in your space it looks like you operate in an almost entirely female environment. outside of the problems that we discussed, how do you think moving forward. are you looking to implement men in this to create a reverse silence as we are talking about making everything equal, if you will? how do you feel about that? how do you see that? >> does there need to be more space for men? i don't know how to take that question. at the time that i was hiring, i would consider male applicants as i was legally bound to do, but yes, i feel like so much of the rest of the world is not the way , that's not the way my i feel like things are

, good. actually, the conference that i run so far has been in the neighborhood of 55 people. i run a small conference for feminists who are interested in careers and entrepreneurship. it has occurred to me, there comes a certain size where i think i will open that conference and say sure, come at it if you really want to attend a conference on this topic for men, but i think i'm really excited to carve out a little space. : a moment where you had i guess a reaction or a thought or feeling towards another woman -- >> i do think there are moments, particularly when you are in, if you're either in an all-female environment or in environment

where there's a lot of women on the team that it is easy to maybe fall into that stereotypical trump that women can't get along. you might come into that situation with expectations that it might be some out unquote tidiness. the stereotypes placed upon women. i think it's important that when where, find ourselves in a situation that we try to not sort of fall into that and try to take the time to understand each person as an individual and an individual personality. i certainly experienced situations in which i have felt, i didn't understand was a something that

was generational that was going on, was a something that was going on having to do with just the different experiences that women might come to a specific instance with different background, or was it this issue of this woman had a a feeling that she needed to be like the top woman in this specific space? sometimes it's those tensions there. it is the reality sometimes about this issue of oppressed population where there are certain instances where you might have and individual who may tend to want to stand out as the preeminent one in that space and almost sort of buttress the oppressing entity in order to be the one that sort of stance out. and so when you're in those sordid situations, whether it's by race, by sex, it's a delicate situation to navigate but i

think ultimately the solution per se if there is one to that is to try to sort of take a step back and understand ways in which you can connect with people on an individual level, rather than trying to subscribe to the overarching paradigm where one might want to fall into this notion of trying to explain it all away with the sort of already existing negative stereotypes around women. >> it's quite the same even in male-dominated fields. i found myself very ashamed to say, but when female colleagues were brought into the team, you think i would be so excited can finally i'm not the only woman. and i found myself having a little tension with her, a little bit of jealousy, a little bit of competition and it bothered me. it bothered me a lot to the point i was like i kind of figured out what is going on, why do i see her and hold her as my competition, more so than anybody else in my team. what i think was happening is that, there's not enough like

female role models in very high positions. the way that i saw i perceive the situation was there some space for one of us at the top. they are not going to promote both of us. we will not be successful here, and i expected our mailboxes to look at us and pick one. you are going to pick the one girl to make it. it was not necessary for me to think that way, but i would imagine that that's how they feel, too. because you really do, when to d.c. the boardrooms and engineers, there's usually only one woman. they're really, really is so you start kind of visualizing where your career is going and thinking like i've got to push her site or else i'm not going to make it. and it was painful for me because i feel, i'm talking an activist circles, we need more of us in engineering, we need to get paid better. we have so much to contribute. and then to my own colleague, i have

disliked attitude with her. we both come with each other, i felt it very much but we never wanted to work together and it was very like short. finally, i had to force myself, you know what? she's your colleague, you'll talk to her, be her friend, be her workmate and get better from there. i had to kind of unlearn a lot of what i feel is like my role in this male-dominated world, to be like tough all the time and to like scratch anybody everybody out of the way until i make it. because it really is better when we do connect, when we help each other. i do think that we climb a lot faster when that happens. >> first of all -- go-ahead. >> the sad reality is your perception to some degree may have been correct. once really necessary is that there needs to be a cohort of individuals. not just one or two. because that leads to a situation where there

is this feeling of competition and oftentimes not based on theory. often based on your expressed in terms of what you've seen weather is usually really in practice this idea of just having one. one woman, one person of color, you know, and that's it. so that sort of sets up this competitive environment from the beginning. so companies can do a better job quite friendly. there's more than one woman, more than two women, more than three people of color that would be qualified to do this work, and companies need to stop being lazy. i'm just going to say it. it doesn't take that much effort to find qualified people, if they need to invest in that in the because, quite frankly this country is changing demographically. we are quickly turning over into a majority people of color nation, and if companies want to build to relate to the population that they are seeking to serve, they need to do better job making sure they have diverse

leadership at the top. >> and i was going to say, he almost took the words out of my mouth, first, thank you for sharing of vulnerability. it's not easy to admit some kind of not wrongdoing, you're thinking of what not a maybe you're not as proud of it, and so i appreciate you sharing that. it allows us to take a step forward together. yes, infrastructure, internally the organization was setting up for almost nothing to eat you up will but a level of competition that is not going to be, it's not going to bring you for an sense that of course you feel that way. you are the only woman which what should be done from the beginning and, therefore, i appreciate your sharing that. i would say the same thing, the company at all organizations need to be a little bit more responsible from the ground up. i'm going to switch over to just something very basic, that is our appearance because when we go

into an organization and have a formal dress code. they tell you how to work, not to wear, more or less some more than others. there's always that unspoken rule of what you can and cannot wear, this court to short, is a top too low, what are we looking at come how is your hair? tell me about your experience. we can start this way. how has your experience in what you choose to wear and how he will proceed in your organization or in your circle? >> i haven't had a personal experience with that, but one which i get out of that is working from home when i get -- to talk to other women who say the same thing, but that's one of the reasons working from his become so popular. finally, they are so relieved that they don't have to pile on makeup or feel like have to worry about how they dress or being judged by how they look. of course would be ideal if workplaces did make

women feel like had to work from home, but i've noticed that that's when we women, like women especially feel liberated by that trend. >> i think i can write a book about the subject. oh, man, i had a really hard time finding my group in terms of what i could wear as a professional women in engineering. some days i was at a construction site and i was in hard hat and boots, if in another the outside in the office where he like a pencil skirt and high heels. it was difficult because that nab like us of any role models to look to. i don't know who to emulate, and remember the first few months like fresh out of college, my first job i was like wearing business suits. i hate suits with a passion. i don't even like pants. i don't like to wear them. i'm like wearing blouses that are ill fitting and i'm trying to like copy my mailboxes because i was like

well, you know, i don't know what to do. little little i was suffocating and i felt like i had to kind of bring up a bit of my own personality. it took a lot. i remember coworkers being like, oh, you are always so colorful. and i was like that's not a compliment, but thank you. i knew that they were kind of try to do something about my clothing. and i would have females, like other women in the company also remark my clothing. you work with a lot of guys. your skirt is too tight, too short, with your cleavage. it was so humiliating and i had to persevere and had to be like no, i don't care. like that's their problem, not my problem. and just kind of like fashion one because i care that much. it sounds a little bit naive and a little silly, but for me i think being able to dress on wanted to

dress, to wear prints and skirts and high heels and where my hair how i wanted to do it in this male-dominated space. it felt like a rebellion. like, that was my first way of saying, like, i'm a feminist, i don't care, i'm going to change this culture whether you like it or not. even if it's just me doing it, you know? so like i had to do it. it was almost like a personal victory. eventually i became like the widow in the office, -- weirdo in the office, like wearing like big skirts with flowers on them and flowers in my hair. and i don't care. i have to go to the field, i will pull out my work boots, my jeans and i'm like lets let's go, let's do this. so as long as i prepared i had no shame, but it was a difficult it really, really really was. >> it's very interesting because for me it's been less of a wardrobe issue that it has been a hair issue. i think this is a

reality for a lot of black women in particular. i know for except -- example when i first started, when i started, my mother was petrified. so i started when i was in graduate school and she was like oh my god, you'll never and i told at that point, if an employer does not want to hire me because of what's on my head, whether then what's in my head, then that's clearly a place one would want to work in the first place. what i found in practice for me and a lot of it has to do with my industry, most of my career was in the nonprofit space and think tanks, i now on my own company, and might've been a different explained in a would want to work in the first place. what i found in practice for me and a lot of it has to do with corporate or private but i know for me it is not necessarily been an inhibitor for me personally on given i've chosen to work. but i will say that there are very disturbing things that we see that's going on in broader culture. we know there was recently a court decision that said it was

ok for employers to dismiss applicants because they have locks specifically. we know there was a period of time in which some of the armed forces were forcing black women not to be able to wear their hair naturally and there were some changes made to change that ruling but that was an initial ruling. so we are even seeing, for example, we just recently with bill o'reilly sort of insulting maxine waters specifically about her hair. so there seems to be this issue particularly as rights to black women and hair and a workplace and in broader culture relate to various micro-aggressions and macro aggressions that can be not only disturbing but also prohibit their ability or our ability to be able to even get a a job in the first place. that's very disturbing too. nicole: it sounds like in your experience you have been able to kind of move around some of these more problems that you having in a corporation, where

what you wear, what your hair looks like, you did mention that that's very disturbing too. but for the most part nonprofit, think tanks, in areas we might not be dealing with the most simplistic feminism or biased issues. what have you experienced personally that has affected you in your special career? >> for me particularly, it's really an issue of, i've had a very interesting career in that part of my career has been very solidly within black spaces. part of my career has been very solidly within women spaces. what i find is that they'll vote of the spaces, the things that we work towards a very similar. the two do not intertwine well in reality. the reality is that black spaces largely tend to focus on male-dominated issues, and the rally is that women spaces large come largely typically focus on white women dominated issues. so there really are not that many spaces that i believe in a very well thought out and in-depth strategic way focus on the needs specifically of women of color.

so that's part of what i've been able to do in my career to try to sort of crete that space and expand that space. but that is a space i feel like there needs to be a lot more work. that to me is the part of sort of this feminism that work that i believe still needs a lot of attention paid to. because when you look specifically at leadership, for example, yes, women are and reps and as relates to lead in the workplace. but to the degree that we are saying some penetration in that space, it's almost exclusively white women. there needs to be a sense of camaraderie among women. we are not just satisfied with a woman being in that space come into other women in the spaces pretty much are white women. white women quite frankly be able to take up a flag to say i'm not satisfied with this definition of gender diversity. if gender diversity itself is not diverse, and it's not truly gender diverse and we need to work towards that in order to get there.

nicole: thank you. good point. anybody else? [applause] nicole: very well put. going past -- did you want to say something? >> sure. it took me a lot of time in my early like to figure out how to even remotely begin to dress myself for class reasons actually. i was the first post my founded to go to college and went to dartmouth and it was very l.l. bean and so much l.l. bean. [laughing] so i had like the snow boots that are not real snow boots, like fashion snowbirds and the jcpenney clearance section where mama worked. not the clearance section specific but at jcpenney. they leaked like within two weeks because you can't wear jcpenney glossy black boots and a snowstorm in new hampshire. it took me a long time to figure out how to dress myself and try to become acceptable in the

workplace and kind of pull it together and not look -- but i feel like that was a long time ago. i genuinely enjoy wearing things that are really appropriate in workplaces. it's just my personal taste. like i just had a baby son so delighted to be wearing real pants with a zipper and everything. it's fantastic. to that question though, in terms of what kind of a prince is appropriate in a workplace, i feel like because this is, i genuinely enjoy dressing like i am now, i think people sometimes expect me to think that everyone should dress like that or look like that. at this stage of my life i have reached the peak of the present of my lifetime in the sense that nobody gives me any junk for what i look like, but also no longer really as sexy as i was when i was 25. i don't get any bs about that either. and so i can bring much just go

unnoticed in a lot of places. what that means to me is that when i'm in a conversation where someone says i can't believe what she is wearing, they expect me to agree. it's my job not to do that. so i feel like i have put up defenses of just people wearing stilettos at a conference, and i'm just like why could do not wear stilettos at a conference? please give me a reason. i think is where the appearance question kind of lies for me now. nicole: thank you for sharing that. moving past i guess the physical appearance is also the behavioral situations where ladies as successful leaders you have a place at different tables where your voice is often as for where your opinion is asked for and your voice will be heard. what about when you experience situations where a male interrupt you, where they will

tell you a lewd joke, where they will demean you in some way? not a very obvious way but just a touch point where you kind of knocks you down in terms of your power in his eyes. what kind of situation have you experienced with that? >> i write about this a lot actually. so this is an important issue i get within presentations that again and articles data right. one of the most effective strategies i encourage people to get started with right away is speaking out up for other women when this happens, and i find that a lot of marginalized people in a workplace i really good at keeping track of who they resent and who they think. a running tally, like these people have done something bad to me, and these people are done something good to me. so people tend to remember. if you can jump into conversation and say so i see that you did like her idea, you know? and you're now attempting to steal it for yourself or give the credit back to where it belongs or like, i want to be what she had to say, let's get back to her. so bring it before back to other women, getting other people

women for the credit. if you can do that publicly like in front of bosses, that's great thing. that can happen in email. like you can send out an email to the group or to a boss, to a manager this is i just want to throw in a little more information in favor of, you know, so publicly giving credit to other women. i find people will notice that. they will remember it. hopefully they will repay the favor. i find while i also recommend speaking up yourself, this is a lot easier than that even. nicole: there's workplace interruption which is like a daily occurrence that happens to all this, but for me i think the one that bugs me the most is when i'm presenting, talking about women and people of color of skin and without a doubt the first person to raise their hand

is always the guy. i'm just like, and i went with her for a long time. the questions were never questions. always like anecdotes. like faculty members love, love to be the first ones, actually, you do, our department we have three female professors and i'm like that's fantastic, dude. like faculty members love, lovee number of women that they graduate. it was like all the statistics that me nothing in the grand scheme of things but in this one tiny college in new england he felt like you need to know. not everywhere. one time a young man, i don't know, stalking a sexual in the workplace, et cetera, and he interrupted me to say that bill clinton was a sexual harasser. and i was like, ok. and i was like, is he here? i was like i don't work with him. and he's like, i just wanted to say that. this was about around the election committee think he felt i was talking about a certain

someone else. and i was like i really was not. believe me, do not think about other people that much. now what i do is before i even opened for question, i was like, i'm really sorry but this but have to prioritize, women and people of color. i was like, i know that's going to bug you. it's going, you might feel uncomfortable. you might even walk it and you can do whatever you want, i don't care. but i was like i need you to understand why i'm here, who i'm here for, who needs me more thickeners like if you have any questions, like out to people of color and women have asked the questions, then you can raise your hand. it worked wonderfully. i feel better about it. i feel like, i think that my presentations and on a better note and more positive note benches like -- is always like a white person, the white man. i got tired of it, honestly. sort of tiring.