state-to-state relations is so important. i think about it as the chessboard world, how do we essentially beat our adversaries. we think about a move, try to anticipate what move they make. that world is there in important but equally important is the world of the web. the world of criminal networks and drug traffickers. the world of business, which is increasingly big supply chains and corporations. in the world of nongovernmental corporations. i think of all of them as increasingly important act as but we do not have strategies for how to bring them together. "afterwords."ch

now, hosted by the soho forum it in new york city, college campus racism debate. a monthly debate series that features topics of special interest to libertarians and aims to enhance ties in new york city's libertarian community. you can catch audio of all our events on the put a cost in the i-tune form. want to thank the smith family foundation for making the series possible. i'm gene epstein, the soho forum director and moderator for more information and to by tickets go to our web site at the sew. >> this debate in which the audience votes for, against, or undependsed on the resolution

and then after the debate is over. whichever side move this vote from his or her favor wins the contest. today's resolution is as follows: america's colleges have fostered a racist environment that makes them a hostile space for african-american students. defending the resolution to my right, we have lawrence ross, author over "black balled: the black white politics of race." lawrence will be doing book signing and settled after the debate. you can find lawrence over there at that table signing books and talking -- responding to any questions you want to put to him after the debate. arguing for the negative. camille foster, a telecommunications entrepreneur and a coast and co-host of the libertarian podcast, the fifth

column. >> uh-oh, home turf. >> they're dominating. so, now we will close the initial voting and the debate can begin. >> lawrence ross. you have 15 minutes to defend the proposition: america's colleges have fostered a racist environment that makes them a hostile space for african-american students. take it away, lawrence. >> there will never be a niggesae you can hang it from a tree but never side will in the there will never be a niggersome sae. how many have you heard that song before? you thought i lost my mine. that song was sung by two young members of a fraternity at the university of oklahoma and they learned from five or six different white fraternity members in the midwest, and everyone was shocked when they saw this video and it went on,

went viral and everybody -- even fox news -- fox news -- thought is might be a little racist. but because we americans like to think that racism is some sort of extraordinarily long series on unfortunate events we did not know is that this was not the first time a white fraternity has sung about murdering african-americans. no one has really connected the dots and that's why i'm here issue connect the docks. in 1936 a fraternity sang so ang shat they'd, bybyblack ," better play it cool or else we'll boom your sunday school. talking about the bombing atle the church in birmingham, alabama, where little girls died. this is the tip of the iceberg, the racism you see on a regular basis on college cam pauses. the average when i was doing

research was 350 to 500 racist incidents on college campus that are reported. what type of officer incidents? i what is the ones we normally see? do you want a white student and white fraternity or sore roar sits dressing up on black fees in high school wean or martin luther king day. you want to have people dress up as blood and crips trying to mimic african-americans. happens all the time. white students ate are watermelon and fried chicken and declaring they're celebrating black heritage? happens every year. warrant to see the word nigger sprayed anywhere? eastern michigan. happens on a regular basis. american university happened twice in one year at american university. just happened a couple weeks ago. east tennessee state university had a guy, white guy, who decided to put a gorilla mask on

his face and hand out bananas to students who are members of "black lives matter." it's not something -- oh, i almost forget about the confederate flag and the nooses that have been associated in terms of the pictures we have associated with fraternities, almost always happen on a regular basis. sometimes it's part of organized chapter events and we see this in social media but goes back to the 40s and 50s and 60s. get it out of your haven't campus racism is a new event. it's not new because we have social media. i saw campus racism issue inside newspapers, archives, yearbooks. one of the problems is that when we talk about campus racism we want to say that racism for all college campuses is wherever the other is. you want to say it's only in the

south because the university of a.m., that's an easy place to stick it. but happens in missouri, yale, columbia, berkeley, every single place where -- whether it's a small or private or state college, it happens every place. but here's the problem. i'm not going to get into listing every racist event that occurs during this 15 minutes. the one problem that black people have in terms of trying to talk about racism is that quantifying racism best just simply doing numbers never works. some of you, if i said, 100 different incidents somebody will go but it's not 105 and i need 105 to make sure that racism actually occurs. that's a game of what i can amole i'm not going to play. what i do want to do is talk about specifically what are students -- specifically trying to do when they come on the campuses and what happens to them? these college students are --

black college students come to get an education and what is happening is that the university itself and the -- what we talk about in terms of the college universities i creating a hostile environment, which gets us to the resolution. way want to re-read the resolution. if have a quibble with the resolution, james, the issue is when we talk about environment we use racism as an adjective for the noun environment. as though the environment itself is neutral. as though it is racism free but just people from the outside who are creating racist environment. i'm going to argue for the affirmative but i still don't believe that. the environment is part of america as any other place so that's therefore we should not make the assumption that the environment itself is nonracist. america does not have any sense of history that tell uses we have nonracist or racialized environments.

but this kind of goes back to one of the earliest studies done by an african-american sociologist, debuts -- debouis and said what is the racial climate on your college cam us? some, because they're were restrict because african-americans were not allowed on the campuses, there was no survey there but there was ones who said we treat the african-american students exactly like the white students and other say never bring them on the campus because we can note deal with their safety. it's easy when we talk about college campuses, out educational disneyland. utopian spaces, critical thinking land over here, pat out drunk land is therefor but nobody restrooms, and even talk

about it being i've -- ivory towers, state of privileged seclusion separated from the fact of the world. college university are not separate from the real world and not spate from the american society, and how do we define colleges and university? win we talk about college as being some kind of institutional or administration. college and universities are composed of a number of elements. students, faculty, administration, yes. the fraternities and sororities, tradition, buildings, campus, awful those work together. so, the problem is if you have a racist environment you've by nature have a hostile space. yet to good on a college campus where people say the environment is racist but also warm and inviting. doesn't happen like that. it's not like that. also you have to also remember that hostility is not really a quantifiablable fact. the fact its that we have all these racist incidents. that's without dispute.

also a qualifiable fact in terms of how do black students feel when they got on campus? do they feel welcome? that's not something that other people can tell them they must feel welcome or most overcome some sort of racist hurdle to say i feel welcome on the cam pulse. it's the honest of the campus to provide them with a atmosphere that allows them to get an education without the hurdle of racism. we want talk about racism without getting specifically to the root of it which of course is white supremacy. i saw some faces scrunching up. that's my bad. that's my bad should have given you a trigger warning it would say white supremacy and they can this a safe space for all y'all. but let get into it. when i say white supremacy get out offer head the david dukes of the world. aim talking about whiteness being the default normal and blackness the other.

whiteness being the fully human and blackness being not human. that's where you get the denigration of bract -- black students. if you don't believe that, look at what african-american students have to deal with. georgetown, just had to apologize for having sold 272 enslaved africans to keep the doors open. harvard law had in the seal the slave-holding family who burned alive 100 african inside order for them to put down a slave rebellion, or clemson, on the john c. calhoun plan addition that is one over to lead are slavery advocates and hosts the tillman hall, advocated for the lynching of thousands of african-americans and five hundred yard from the strom

thurmond building. i joke the only thing they decide not have what a kkk quad and then the actually did have the kkk come to distribute fliers. that's the atmosphere you have on multiple campuses in the trupp -- country and that's the history of how african-americans see themselves. these are not historical relics. these are reality and we always talk about fact that no one would woo ask an african-american student to look do this if -- wife this specifically college campuses? doesn't happen. i study it it. doesn't happen on high school or elementary cool campuses -- school campuses. the reason why african-american students are attacked because colleges or economical transformational and a battle field whether you will uphold

white supremacy or change it so the black students on the campuses is a direct threat and people decide to attack the threat. one other reason is white students come on college campuses completely segregated. african-american students and white student does not go to the same schools, do not live in the same neighborhoods. 74% of african-american students go to a segregated and cool 38% of. the good to a segregated k to 12 school before they get to college and 80% or so for white students coming to college. but in spite of all that, 2016 baylor study said in terms of how white students look at african-american students they said they did not try hart enough on college campuses, despite the -- how hard to get to camp pulse. one of the problems it you do not see an african-american student as a foully human person you'll find that person easy to denigrator you will not see that person as a college student.

at lsu they had an epidemic of so many white students calling the lsu police department and saying that they had an african-american male that they needed to investigate, that the police had to call -- had to do an open letter and tell the student body to stop sending the police talking to african-american men who are just simply coming from the library. at colgate, a young woman talked about the fact she waked around with a white student walked around with a metal sweared and talk about the year before no one stopped her and a young african-american black student walked iron with a glue gun for his art project the police shut down the whole campus. aim saying everybody are raging white supremacists in of course not. i'm not saying that. will say that white students and administrators and faculty are coming to campuses with various

aspects, some 0 who are antiracist, looking at racism and said going to help deconstruct racism on this campus. and miami who are racist i can't wait to get here because this aspace for me to be racist. most peek are not any of that. most people in the world and most white students and administration and faculty typically are nonracist. something i believe in egalitarian society, i voted for obama so how can i be racist? they put a more or less justification between racism versus saying i can do something. as long as it's over through don't have to do something. it's somebody ems's issue. inside higher education did a study with 700 white college presidents and they asked them, what is the racial climate?

most of them said it's good or he can lend. -- excellent. they did it again in 2017 and you think it would go down abuse obviously things are not really good it went up. 90% of the college presidents who said excellent, went up. so, what happens is there's a kind of -- not just with the college presidents. it's also the students. a woman decided to paint her face black, throw up a bang signed and said it feel goods to be pa nigga. they asked her why? she said i'm the least racist person i know. if ask myself if you're the least racist person, who is the most racist person you know? >> 30 second. >> he doesn't like racism, nine anybody else. no one likes. like saying i love cancer. but they have myths. individualized, minimize, and

trivialize and dispense the concerns. all the individual instance depend, look at the interest -- in terms of minimizing, black students are hypersensitive and then triflize it by pick -- trivialize it by picking out an incident but that makes african-american students mad because they're dismissed. one student said i didn't come to the university of oklahoma, going back to ase for -- i dime be an engineer but she used what james baldwin saidment when the paradox of education when you begin to develop a conscious you must find yourself a war with your society. it is your responsibility to change society if you think of yourself as an educated person. >> thank you. [applause] >> camille, 15 minutes to speak against the resolution. take it away camille. >> great.

only need three of those since lawrence explained the tack tim ago i going to use. except he is wrong. first, thanks so much to eugene and naomi and john and the rest of the -- and thanks to all of you for being here, and lawrence, thank you for coming and taking on what is a very difficult and challenging task, trying to prove this really assertive claim about universities being hostile environments. my suspicion is that most of the people in this room who take an interesting in like this are probably university educated. imagine that wasn't their experience, and i'm not imagining that because i'm just going to -- why not contrive something. i'm going to consult a study, except it's not one that is well over 100 years old. it's one from bat year ago. in fact i'll consult two of them. both studies we saw the students overwhelmingly save they thought the racial -- race relations on

their campus were good or excellent. not only -- i'm sorry about that. this is the other -- i am at a severe disadvantage i do not like monologues the notion for talking for 15 minute is not committing for me but i'll try to keep it going for you guys. also, lawrence has been studying this stuff longer than i have, but i'm going to try to make am empirical case, and when i say empirical, it's not just a matter over citing numbers it's a matter of making claims. if what would we expect to see? i certainly don't think we expect to see 75% of students on campus saying they're pleased to be the. they're happy, they think the race relationships on their campus are fine and good. in fact even black students say that. but it is certainly true that black students say that to a lesser degree. what is even more interesting from my standpoint is that these

hostile racist environments, when i decided to take a look at this a little more closely, i went and took a look at the top ten and the top 25 universities, both top ten private universities, u.s. nuss news and world regard, top 25 universities and every single one of the campuses they have a chancellor of diversity. and often time thursday multiple people who hold that title. the small fiefdoms that rule over the entire campus, adjudicating various wrongs and making students feel, one hopes, safer, and every single one of those campuses has an african-american studies program where you can get a degree, spend your entire time studying that. many of the campuses have diversetive credit outside earn for taking these classes. that didn't exits when i was in school. but suffice to say there are

significant investments being made in pursuit of this goal, and it's no surprise, then, this goal of creating diversity on campus and no prize that since i believe the late 1970s, up until about 2015, the rate of -- not the rate -- the share of 18 to 25-year-olds, african-americans, in secondary -- post secondary education has increased by 100 -- by almost 100%. twice the rate of white students. why are they rushing to go to these hostile, racist environments in and why at a time when they're supposed to be awash in all of these anecdotal cases of racial outrage directed towards them? is the fbi reporting they're actually seeing far less reports of hate crimes on the campuses. i'm not exactly sure but it may have something to do with the

fact that many of these students, who in the same survey had said they believed their college environment is a lot -- is producing the sort of race relations that one would expect, excellent, good, probably consistent with your own experience at school. many of them were deeply concerned about the state of black america. they were concerned about black people in general. they were also concerned about the state of race relations on other campuses. what is that? interestingly, i think that there is the very strong possibility that some of the programs that have been put into place to try and ameliorate imagined wrongs to try to create a campus environment that is more equitable and more equal and more fair and that celebrate this traditions of all of the students on campus, rather than bringing the students together,

may in fact be creating some divisions. it may in fact be highlights the things about one another that make them different rather than highlighting the thing about one another that make them the thing. what sort of stuff would that be? perhaps really charged language like white supremacy, like privilege. what on earth or those things? we were just told chat white supremacy is something that is not necessarily what is practiced by the klan but some sort of force that is behind almost everything that you do and everything that is around you and everything that surrounds you. there's an unbroken continuum from the founding of the country, from chatle slavery, through jim crow, on up into your campus where there is a young white girl at the university of maryland, my alma mater, who was photographed in front of a cake and the cake

said the words "suck -- i don't -- suck a nigga dick. that is a very strange phrase. what does it come from? lil wayne. the lyrics to a rap song. this is one of the myriad anecdotes brought to bear in support of the case that these campuses are awash in racism. i don't think it would make a hell of a lot of sense for me to cherry-pick the various incidents of supposed racism and i say supposed not because i'm denigrating it but because what is racism? what is the trigger? these are subjective assess. inside many cases. certainly once you get from a situation where the state is making determinations.who can attend school at this particular

place, if i say to you, you are a detroit -- a credit to your race, have i in fact insultedow? if someone sends me a message on my ipad and says, good luck at your debate, kill 'em, die take phones? die presume that this is in fact a reference to the fact that -- the fact -- that black people are overrepresented in crime statistics? is he suggesting that i am in fact a violent person as a consequence of it? i don't know. i can't know that. but one can presume, and unfortunately -- i read lawrence's book. in there are portions i agree with but not many. >> oh, man. >> i'm sorry. but not many. and the one thing i do conceit, however, is that it there are number of black people that share the sentiment being expressed. the sentiment that if you walk

into a store and someone speaks to you, that this person may in fact be trying to affirmatively get in your way and make certain that you're not stealing anything. but simultaneously the same person might also feel that if they walk in and no one speaks to them, that suddenly it's because, well, they must think i ain't got no money into spend. what sort of cognitive load are you carrying if you're imagining that in every single circumstance, both the existence of programs to amale you're rate discrimination and the nonexistence of the programs are evidence of the contempt that the world must have towards you. ...

return somewhere close to 80%.

80% higher for the students with average grades who are applying to the same medical school. universities are doing everything they can to try to create environments that are identical in terms of the demographic representation of the students on their campuses to the world of the living. there may in fact be the consequences to a program like that if a student that goes to a university that they may or may not be prepared for because the university has a different set of standards for them going to be better off if they take two years of school, accumulate debt and they will finish. i'm not sure about that. is this too and going to be better off if they were to go to a black college or university it

might not be as good as another school they could have gotten into. are they better off going to a school on the basis of their racial identity so that they can be in a monolithic environment that looks nothing like the world they would inhabit? i suppose you might be better off if you are someone that decide you are in affirmatively black person. but for whatever reason, we are in the era when there are people like richard spencer posting events and getting far more attention than they deserve what warrant, but there is something good that richard spencer does. every now and again he will talk about white pride and his heritage and how much he loves and appreciates his whiteness. there would be a student union on their campus so for whatever

reason when we encounter tribalism like basic gross tribalism on the college campuses in the form of white pride and recognize it for the instinct that it is, something we should be trying to strive to rise above that we make all of the exceptions in our society. when barack obama shows up at howard university to give a commencement speech, he encouraged as thi this this enta of young people to be confident in their blackness. he of course then goes on to say there is no one right way but what that suggests to me is if there is a universe of blackness and you can be anythin anythingn perhaps it doesn't mean anything at all. perhaps it is arbitrary but you

can set it aside and not revel in it. but we can find ways to build bridges between the communities on campus to learn to identify with one another with any number of ways that are distinct and the trends and patterns that we see when the students join any number of different organizations that are primarily interested in the race and that are interested in highlighting the things that make them different from one another. they are not necessarily going to produce the kind of outcomes that we want in the same way the diversity programs have been created as the studies show over and over again haven't done a great deal to improve the conditions of the organizations they are supposed to improve. instead what they do is make the folks involved in the programs feel terrible about themselves.

so i think i have exhausted my time. >> five minutes of rebuttal. >> my first would going to be going to the historical established as a responsibility as they are allowed to many but not all institutions. they should be able to go to the berkeley of the world. we should be able to go to a private university.

he's going to an art school and there is no point in time we should think to ourselves that racism on a college campus is accessible to the hurdle to the students that should have to deal with on their own and i reject this idea because the colleges universities make the mitigating effort and for many years they have the diversity but not inclusion offices that meant that a lot of students have a chance is -- transitory experience but by the time they thought to themselves i will give money back to the university is because i don't feel a part of it but we don't have to make that choice. universities in terms of how they say and look at the students, that is a canary in the line.

when you go a little bit deeper in the area which of course we say is for pretty much any student on campus we should look at the facts of the faculty on college campuses though it's been a record number all in the last ten, 20 years or so and the rate of african-american faculty on the college campuses has remained at a high around 6.8% or 2.7 at berkeley. so you don't even have a faculty on the campuses. when you look at the totality you can't just simply say maybe they shouldn't be going to these schools but i reject this idea that most who are coming to these institutions are either unqualified or not qualified to should be at some other school.

so any person that comes to the college campus, sometimes they come to the college campus and find the school is too much for them but going back to the resolution when we talk about the resolution itself, we are talking about whether the university is a hostile space and you don't have to say well is it as hostile as it was in the 1950s or 60s, of course not. when we talk about white supremacy it isn't a static thing we are talking abou aboutt remains the same so we have the 1940s, 50s and that's the thing. we are talking about these very things happen in society for our kids to even get on the college campuses. why would we expect when we talk about institutional and systemic and individual racism, why would we suspect they wouldn't make that institutional racism on the college campus if it exists in

society anyway? it makes no sense. so therefore what you have are university presidents playing a game of race where they study the reactions from the presidents when it came to reacting to the incident and what they found as they were basically doing pr for the incident this doesn't reflect the family. two months to the incident happening they talked about how they didn't feel like they were part of the family or how we do not feel hurt.

we have to get off the idea that somehow these spaces are because they are starting to address the needs of students were just the remedy themselves. it's the same thing as when they arrived. >> i would quibble with a few of the characterizations but i'm not defending the proposition today. i think that the most damning evidence is the survey data wherein black students from 68% of which responded about the nature of the race relations on campus and said they thought that they were good or excelle

excellent. 74% said they were good or excellent. it seems to me there is a very significant problem to make the candidates hostile spaces. there is an expectation as i've mentioned is in your favor perhaps that on others it's bad but they do not see the problem which seems they believe they would encounter these things and perhaps there is a predisposition for whatever reason, but it also suggests they may not see these happened. i did not dismiss all the things that happened. i did not suggest that racism on the campus is being addressed. quite the contrary, there are

response units that have been placed on various campuses to try to address these issues. the question is whether or not they are having the sort of impact that one would hope that they would have. it is not just a pr when you respond to a situation on campus where as one of the people has done something that is disrespectful or embarrass the rest of the folks on campus. there is certainly more than one winner in the last week but there is a fraudulent hate cri

crime. there are in fact fake hate crimes taking place that one of the events you mentioned is a sit in at colgate university because of text messages sent on an anonymous messaging service. let alon alone white people thae black students. it was easy to substantiate the claim if all you have to do is find something that doesn't quite seem right to you.

it's the man for whom the stadium is named but not being aware that cost me no great enemy. and no wonder it several years after a student decides i'm going to campaign against us ans and crusade against this and send letters to the athletes to let them know they are playing on a racist field. this isn't a racist field. perhaps the building has the name of someone unsavory on it and we have seen situations like that. a sum of two or better evidence may want to suggest that i would preempt it by saying when the university makes the determination to keep the name of a building the same and

decides that as opposed to taking off the name of the person that has done disreputable things and in some cases participated in lynchings and talked about doing so with pride and they decide they are going to put a plaque on the building to commemorate the person and_the wrong that was done if you don't like that outcome, that is not recessed. if you don't like that outcome, you are dissatisfied. given the number of people in the room, i suspect they have differences of opinion on whether or not it is a good and virtuous way to adjudicate the problem. >> before we open up questions from the audience, we have five minutes to which each side gets to ask a question. is there a question that you like to put back >> i would love to hear you address the survey data.

>> i would also treat the surv survey. i don't know in terms of the amount of people or who did the actual survey but you actually said something in your statement that's true. as an individual it is quite possible to walk around campus and not study the buildings on which you own the campus. there is no problem with that and you will not be harmed. but at the same time the fact that there are buildings supposedly named after people that represent the values of the college universities.

they may miss something in the 1920s, 30s, 40s and 50s for the example. you can go to the university of maryland and once you understand that knowledge you might say this is not the owner of this person is deserved. let me talk about for example the university of munich. if they have statues or buildings named after them because of the nazi party to

ignore it, yes, some may ignore it this may be open-ended. we asked the students to ignore it. some will not have any type of issue with it if they do not know, but once you do know, you think the university of maryland is your campus. >> is there a question that you would like to put to the meal? >> you said hate crimes. it is elevated to hit that much rick. -- metric. >> what level do you find it to not be insignificant? >> i don't know that i would

attach a percentage to that. we do not live in the new jerusalem, we live on earth. there was going to be a level of crime and violence and inhumanity. some of those crimes are almost aimed at white people in other racial groups. i am not pleased when there are fewer hate crimes taking place. when they are matriculating on the college campuses, once you have the model minority in the country in terms of the attending school based on the side of the population the west

immigrants to this country it is difficult for me to accept the argument that we live in a country that is so steeped in racism and animosity. they are in the position it makes sense to carry this chip on your shoulder. we could talk about the police shootings for example. ferguson is an interesting example of this. you hear the story about a police officer shooting a young man and you immediately jump to the conclusion that a crime was committed. do we have to wait for the facts

to come out and when they do, do we embrace the truth or stick with the narratives and in this particular case i'm talking it up several independent investigations that needs to a particular outcome. i don't think that there are a significant number of issues with respect to police violence aimed at civilians and it's for the opposite reason minded concern has been that the blocklike smatter movement has created an environment where it is harder to achieve reforms by focusing primarily on the motivations of police who find themselves in violent encounters rather than the facts of the things we might be able to navigate through the wall in order to achieve change. i think if we know that, for

example, ending the drug war is likely to create a situation that is less it is what we should be thinking about rather than imagining a set of circumstances and creating a narrative regardless what the actual facts are. >> i want to hone in on an issue. what would you say to the state. when were these studie are thesd what do you say about the legitimacy of the information you are citing?

>> both of them were taken in the last 24 months in early 2016. both of them are supposed to be representative samples, and i do not remember the number for the other survey but what leads me to believe this likely trust trustworthy surveys the numbers were close to each other in the magnitude and the trends. i don't think anybody would quibble with the survey's surves indication about the students on college campuses that are concerned about these issues. they are there and they see it and also believe somewhere out there all the terrible things they are hearing about our

impact taking place. they are not ignoring the racial injustice. but people are being taken advantage of or they are subjugated by work in society or those that are willfully racist. they've never been stopped by the idea of racism on the college campus. they've been going to college campuses since 1820.

the college in kentucky the idea of college being a transformational place has been important so the idea in order to get that education is something that is not a deterrent it doesn't mean that they have to have that extra burden on top of it. it's the same reason why we have the misogynist campus you shouldn't have that for women in terms of gender. it's the resolution and whether or not the universities are hostile. when we talk about it in terms of the states of college campuses, again i don't know anything about the survey so i can't speak to that. what i can say is you can't have

200 different college campuses and institutions. you can't have 200 campuses in the protest and think this is happening somewhere else even the university of berkeley. you still cannot look around and say they become introspective about what is going on in their own particular campus. it goes back to what was said in the university of maryland. but guess what. when you turn around and someone at another campus is talking about the whole, you begin to look at yourself and say wait a second i heard about this and maybe we shouldn't have them on our campus.

>> raise your question as a question if you want to talk to the speaker later, you will have an opportunity. please ask your question. >> let's just say there is some sort of an inherent bias that comes around when kids go to college. don't you think one of the things were even a leading factor that may be contributing to this sort of quote on quote hostile space is this focus in the gender studies classes on the basis piece is hand of micro- aggression that you may disagree with turns into hate speech and violent and racist wouldn't you say this environment where do you think about this environment is everybody focusing on race.

americans tend to create experiments in terms of recognizing the space itself is hostile. in order to try to mitigate the hostile to the arcade perfect, of course not. i am from the free speech movement campus and i believe in free speech and what happens is people test things out and then they don't work and then they test something else out. but they always do the right thing after they tried everything else. on the college campus, that isn't what they are doing but it's also important to recognize we are not talking all the time about race if instead of being a

monologue it is a dialogue. so the students are starting to speak up and listen to their particular perspectives. it's coming from segregation in k-12 meaning less than 10% of the student body. they have the hyperbolic issues where a student learn something and ethics class and they are hyperbolic about it. we are college students. they are going to be hyperbolic. what happens is when you don't

come back yes it may be is in the conversation but what happens is you make that space a little less hostile for the next generation. it's not going to be a permanent state of hostility. it is what it is right now. >> one thing that i've noticed about the historical trend, and i'm going back now because we seem to be having a conversation which we established the united states has done that awful and terrible things have happened here and we sort of continue on. it's the reason why the campus environment is bad is because of their bad things have happened.

they are swimming through a sea of feces, stronger language, and that is gross, that is terrible. of james baldwin when you were quoting him earlier i love to hear him because he is lyrical but when he talks about the fact that for black people, white have always been a problem. he says to that but they should be careful into the gates do not close on them so they find themselves in a situation they are both responding to things that they imagine are happening to them and things that are in fact happening to them and they lose the ability to tell the difference between the two.

covers not only that was not onr people to stop doing things but also to be aware of the consequences of living in a situation like this and quite frankly i can't say that when i look at the difference between rosa parks and the era that we live in. when you first read of the immediate response to think that

is absurd but then i looked at the question from a different angle it is racist and students would deem them undeserving because of the color of their skin and they would be promoted. it is an imaginary contention created in the college campuses that consumes the students like the positions when the deck is stacked against you and there is an environment becomes toxic and racist for many in the country. it's possible. [laughter] >> i don't know. i try my best not to qualify them and i feel a high degree of confidence. my suspicion is that may be part

of the issue. when the students arrived on the college campuses they are indoctrinated into a set of beliefs about the world that they are getting ready to enhance the. white supremacy is in fact the rule of the land. it rules over all of our lives and prevents us from accomplishing various things or as being successful as the code unless we are twice as good.

i don't think it is possible to believe that about the world. we actually believe that most people you meet have some sort of an automatic response to you and that is the first thing that they are thinking about. to not be incredibly self-conscious and not have it create a sense of dread and existential crisis. once we have a narrative in mind, we will find it and we will find it again. as soon as we find it, we both screamed loudly. we have done so and insist you should have been paying attention all along.

>> so those that are waiting to be manipulated by the left, i am not honestly worried about left or right college campuses. remember i've been telling you about the 74% of african-americans from k-12, that number, what does that mean over a long period of time as there is nothing in theory about going to the school unless for every 10% rise. it's four times as likely to go to a school.

thinking racism is going to kill me, they are thinking i must be a superhuman person for having overcome a segregated school in my neighborhood in order to get on the college campus and how can i make as much money as possible to not have as much student debt. the fact is i came here to be an engineer, not to be majoring in a campus protest. most students just want to go to school and get a degree and walk off into the sunset. but what happens oftentimes we are getting on the college campuses not being prevented from doing it were from getting a degree, but from having the

experience of going to a college university and saying this university wants me here. it isn't just the administrati administration. it's fighting people that they want as human beings makes no sense and it is the most rational thing in the world. if you feel when you know something, i'm going to college not just for a check for a job, i am coming to the society, then you educate your self into it as soon as possible.

it's the segregated school systems and choice reform. it is paramount that you defined the terms. there are two definitions that are making the rounds of the racism. the campus seems to make racism

more geared towards power. which of these definitions seems more suitable to the two of you? one and to rob them of their agency and actors without autonomy. you have two different aspects. what was the first one?

you have the exits and all of that for example, the overt cliché, but i think those are easily dealt with. when we think of the second one isn't necessarily this idea that it's predetermined because we are in a society that is racism plus power but you can't fight

against it. one thing about the nature of america and i say this about the kryptonite. at the time we had racism plus cover we still believe in the idea that a young man named barack obama can be the president of the united states to. barack obama couldn't have been president of the united states without having gone to one of these so-called hostile spaces of getting higher education. you can type the cliché in terms

of the supremacist groups and those that are starting on the white supremacy anwhitesupremacu live in a society that is not equal. >> do you want to comment? >> sure. i think in the beginning of the conversation i tried to at least create some sort of demarcation using the word racism and we talked about it in the context of thinking about explicit acts that are aimed at degrading someone or actual prohibitions against people of other racial groups doing things that are codified into law.

i think that is pretty easy to call and to describe as racist. quite frankly today in the environment it sounds like the word. who has power in that sort of dynamic there is no doubt that there are certain people i feel fine saying just about anything about race. most of you wouldn't take the microphone and do that. you would take a few seconds to ponder whether or not this is the right thing to say.

it calls into question whether they are trustworthy and part of the reason is if i show you a picture of a family like eating cake and picnic your score will rise. from my standpoint when i look at the results and what the studies are generally taking a look at is if it takes longer to respond when you see the picture of a family to respond to the prompts.

they are so pleased that there are various ways i can and cannot talk about race without losing my friends were potentially losing my job or maybe just someone will presume i'm kind of a racist. i'm going to take a little bit longer to answer that question. >> my question you both brought up the question of the definition in the resolution and you didn't answer each other's point. each point you can write a dissertation on but i will try to ask you to address that as succinctly as you can. he questioned environment about the distinction between the college campuses and the rest of the united states.

is it about race or just specifically it might have been blackness. if possible in the timeframe we have a bit like you to address the points. >> those that are still online, sorry. but do come up afterwards. i think you understood the question. repeat the question and give the lady back the microphone. >> he questioned the definition of the environment within the resolution said he was saying that there is less of a distinction between the campus and the rest of the united states. >> i don't know that there is a significant difference between the campus and the united states. i would say that the campuses

are in the united states and shaped by the myriad forces. i think the challenge for the objection that i would've level is not specifically about the argument about the campuses being racist places. it's the force that is making them uniquely racist which is that race has played this incredibly important role in helping to shape our society and helping to produce the outcomes that we have today. and the various issues. a great many things. some of them have been quite good.

it's difficult for me to accept an argument when we look back at the past but only sees this thing as the force that is the current that is shaping the society going forward. it certainly has consequences but there's other factors that matter as well. we have any number of programs created to ameliorate the generations of poverty and make things better. whether or not the programs made things better or worse is an important question that we ought to be asking. there may be a reason that even the drug war is something that in black communities in the 1970s during the first heroine epidemic they were upset that there were not more caucus in their neighborhoods and there were not stiffer penalties.

a crack and powder cocaine walls that came into place and generally are regarded today as racist, we actually call it that were created out of the motivation to try to do something about this bad situation that we saw before. so, lots of forces that shaped the world we live in and shape the campuses. i don't think it makes a lot of sense to separate the two from one another. >> i just want to make sure i get your -- >> did you have anything quite?

what comes from it is i'm from african-american but in terms of how the construct that we create means something. money is a social construct and if you want to give me all of of your non- essential and most important money because we don't believe in it i at the same time we can say fight for this idea that we want to make race and racism something that is in the past we also have the reality of the do know what is here right now. we look at the recent policies

and they change over time. we learn and make mistake. was the experience i of the 1980s and the same experience of the mid-1960s but in terms of the construct and how they see race on the college campus, they do their own and they see their own sense of reality. the racial construct, yes maybe it is a social construct, but we created it and we will have to figure out ways to actually get rid of it. >> think about how you are going

to vote for the resolution. you have five minutes to summarize your point of view. >> when i began here talking about one incident at the university of oklahoma about the white students singing about a very crude song and i talked about going back to 1963 and talking about some other students, the plaintiff was not to be provocative or to see all students and faculty and administrators hate students across the college campuses. they are going for the exact same reason as any other students. they do not want to go on dot college campus and have to deal with the same issues that are going on in the society.

african-american students do believe in the educational disneyland and what the teacher told them because they were going to college in that space and it was a place they could transform their lives and families lives. but when we look at the plurality of the racism on the college campuses, and you can't look at them and say they are just all isolated incidents. you can' can forget the face ofe students that are being demeaned and say you should just get over it. or say we live in a country where a certain segment of the universities are actively trying to tell african-american students you do not belong here and if we want to look at it from race and racism, we would think what is the counterfactual? what about what happens at the colleges and universities is if racism in terms of how we look at it is something that we say

is that an inevitable place and on these predominant institutions than those that go to the colleges and universities face the same thing and they don't. i've looked for 60 years and not a single incident treating the universities the way the students are being treated on the predominantly white institutions. and that is a problem. it is a bigger problem if we look around and think of our kids that we send to these schools and think of them as being good moral people that are not racist but we don't ask them to the anti-racist. if you are going to be a person that is going to change society you have to go and be anti-and you have to be active. coming to this debate, it is

important for the white students and faculty and administrators to create a utopian universe that we all talk about a college being as soon as possible. thank you for bringing me here. [applause] >> please summarize your point of view. one of them that was made, there are universities that are actively telling black students that they don't care about them. but they are not fully people. there is no university in america is not doing that. it is quite the contrary. universities are spending tens

of millions of dollars in some cases on programs explicitly designed to bring black students to their campuses. they are investing in and creating units on their campus to take care of the special needs of the students on the campus. and this year graduate students decided to host their own graduation in addition to the regular evaluation. 2017. what on earth are you doing? that seems like a step backwards. it doesn't seem like progress. and they didn't create this in response to a specific event. they created it to deal with as i remember it in order to give themselves and their experience in opportunity to walk the stage together because only they could

understand one another. it's possible. it's possible that there is a uniformity of thought and experience and they were being subjected to the manner of the explicit racism that means the only thing one can do is come together to overcome it by looking for the data. what i have seen instead as the acceptance rate from 2013 to 2016. if you are asian, 26%. if you are hispanic, 59.5%, if you are black, ed 1.2%. they want you desperately. where is the campus that they

are saying get out of here? if the response to the event on campus is an occurrence of evenf subversive racism be it real or imagined into very recently we e have an imagined one that was contrived if the chancellor of the school shows up on television and asserts this is not who we are because the evidence of an effort to undermine people on campus. i just don't understand that. the case hadn't been mad hasn'ty without anything more than assertion and anecdote and the

black students in general and particular or as a matter of happenstance. [applause] ..

>> >> lawrence will be selling books at the table and will be happy to talk to an answer further questions. you are continuing to deliberate and he will vote on the next resolution so tell me when we close the voting? we have some wonderful volunteers who help out if anybody else wants to help out please

come up to me after words. so please come up and chat with me. how is the voting going? it looks like we will close the voting. once, twice, three times. the results? you understand the way to win this debate is not how they voted initially because that was the baseline the position of the audience. but interestingly enough

eight-point to% with warrants voting in favor and then up bad 11-point 8% he picked up 3-1/2 percentage points. [applause] but kmele so technically that its year-old goes to kmele. congratulations to you both. [applause] lorentz will be over at the table. bring your $20 bills if you would like a book. thank you very much. ♪

>> tonight, q&a is in hyde park where we go inside for a rare look at fdr's personal office and collection of spero, theith paul museum' is director. >> it opened in june 19 41. he was still president of the united states. this became the northern oval office. fdr had an inquisitive mind. there are 914 books in this room alone. fdr took was selected by be in this room. this room is a most identical to the way it was the day that fdr died. nothing has changed. >> watch q&a from the franklin d roosevelt presidential library and museum in hyde park, new eastern onht at 8:00 c-span. >> in case you missed it on c-span, retired brigadier on the gerald calloway

possible threat of climate change on national security. >> if you go back to older field manuals, there is one from the 1980's that said weather and significantthe most aspects of battlefield combat, whether it is the runways than he to be open so you can land on them, whether it is the open seas, or the hill you're going to climb, when you -- when they are in change and they are in change, the military is concerned about that. the military has long had an interest in dealing with things like this and forecasting what might happen. >> jim sensenbrenner at a town hall meeting. >> one to know why you don't just have a civil pair? [applause] >> remember i said at the beginning of the meeting. interruptions, you know, are not going to be tolerated. ok. will you please sit down, sir?

she has the floor. you do not. would you please sit down? would you please set down? thank you for leaving. maine senator angus king at a hearing on the foreign intelligence surveillance act. >> i will ask both of you the same question. why argue answering these questions. is there any vacation by the president of the united states of executive privilege? >> not that i am aware of. >> what you feel is it relevant -- relevant, admiral. wax and wagner on changes to the dodd frank act. released ay we report titled "was the cop on the beat?" bes is regarding the cfp wholly inadequate role in investigating the wells fargo fraudulent account scandal. we have received numerous

records from wells fargo and the occ and others that indicate asleep at thewas wheel. >> c-span programs are available , on our-span.org homepage, and by searching the video library. >> now, educators and historians examine the impact of the landmark supreme court decision brown v board of education, which ended segregated schools. this marks the 63rd anniversary of the decision. it is one hour and 15 minutes.