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>> this week on "q&a" -- georgetown professor butler :iscusses his book "chokehold policing black men." police put you in a chokehold, they are trying to get you to comply, but you can't comply because you cannot breeze -- that is emblematic of the blackmail experience in the united states. legal response to

the issues black men have is to lock us up, to put us in cages, to stop and frisk us, and to treat us as citizens whos righ -- whose rights are not respected. we are not full citizens of the united states. youyou write in this -- >> say their lives are not afforded the same dignity and respect as why lives. my question to you is why not? >> people are afraid of african-american men. there are studies that show that many people have reactions of anxiety. ,hey are concerned about crime and there may be more nefarious motives as well. a lot ofarch indicates people don't think of african-americans as fully human. they think of us as apes. then there are these stereotypes

about commonality associated with black men. one of that is based statistics i breakdown in the book. why a lot of people have these concerns. when you look at street crime, black men do commit a disproportionate share and i .alk about why that is when you look at some of the reactions people have to african-american men, i talk about some brothers who experience -- people don't want to sit next to us on the subway, there's a famous writer who writes about taking the amtrak and you can sit wherever you want. the black man says this is always the last seat next to him to get filled. on southwest airlines, you can choose your seat. jokes ifs journalists a black man is sitting in the

aisle seat and another black man is sitting in the window seat, that middle seat is the last to go. he jokes that lack men love southwest because they get more legroom. these responses people have two black men which are in some cases relatively benign like that and in some ways quite harmful like police being much more likely to shoot black men and put their hands on us when they do to stop and frisk than they are to other people. brian: let's assume there are some white people watching this interview right now and they are saying to themselves i'm not going to listen to the stuff anymore. why should they pay attention to what you have done in this book? "chokehold" for people like you. you are not racist, but you don't understand some of the stuff you've seen in the news about lack men -- about black men. folks whody, the while out at the hip-hop club.

what's going on? i try to break down this situation african-american men find ourselves in. on the one hand, we are public enemy number one, but on the other hand, we are the stars of pop culture. not only are black men disproportionately involved in the criminal justice system, we have this out -- this outsized influence on youth culture. when you look at who has the most twitter followers, who has the most race book fans, those lists are full of black men from president obama and after that, large number of athletes and artists, especially hip-hop artists. brian: i want to go back to chapter eight. none of this is new, you write. african americans have never been free, african americans have never been safe. when we look at the way police treat black people, there

has never been a time where community relations have been anywhere near good. for a long time, few were a black person, you called the police to report crime -- if you were the victim, the police just didn't pay that much attention to it. now, the sense is the police are overwhelmingly in african-american communities, but not to protect those communities, but rather to lock folks up. things lackk at the people have been through in this country from slavery -- black people have in through in this country from slavery to jim crow to separate water fountains to situations now like the poison water crisis in flint, michigan that disproportionately impacts lack people -- impacts lack have beenack people willing to go to court to peacefully protest, but there's something about being attacked

by the police, the people who are supposed to protect and serve you that affect african-americans like nothing else. when you look at every major civil insurrection that has risen up in the united states when black people have abandoned peaceful protests and taken it to the streets in baltimore, in ferguson, in los angeles, it's because of something the police have done. attack byeel under your own government, that is an extreme form of frankly prejudice and makes you want to rise up. it makes black people rise up like no other kind of discriminate in. brian: you've been a professor for 20 years.

you teach at georgetown law school and you are a graduate of harvard law school, graduate of yale undergrad come a graduate of saint ignatius high school in chicago. how did you do all of this? paul: i'm fortunate and i had a wonderful scent of -- a wonderful set of parents who raised me in a beautiful, all black neighborhood in chicago. i had a number of experiences with the police like any black boy does. once, i was riding my bike to the library which was an all white neighborhood literally miles from my house. a cop car rolls up next to me, rolls down the window and a white officer says is that bike yours? i said yes. is that car yours? and i sped off. when i got home, i told my mom what i did and this is a woman who marched with both malcolm x. and martin luther king.

when she heard what i said to that cop, she spanked me. don't i know what happened to black boys who talk to the police like that? those spankings when the parent cries as much as a child. and it turns out some 30 years later my mom was absolutely right. what we now know is during this time i'm of the police in chicago were operating this off site where they were literally men.ring lack men -- black they were attaching electrodes to the private parts and doing the equivalent of waterboarding. the city of chicago has paid out $60 million in settlements to black men who were the victims of this police abuse. growing up in that kind of environment, i was passionate about civil rights, about making a difference.

after law school, i thought it way i might affect changes to be a prosecutor, to go in as an undercover brother, the classic idea of creating change from the inside. what i found is rather than change the system, that system changed me. you don't go to harvard law school and not come out like a lot of lawyers, competitive and ambitious. you want to be the best. in the prosecutor's office, the way you rise to the top is to put as many people in jail for as long as you can and it turns out i was quite good at that, especially with the jurors in the district of columbia who were mainly african-american. be a black to prosecutor. if you go to criminal court in d.c. then and now, you would think white people don't commit

crimes, like people don't use drugs, they don't get into fights, they don't steal because they are just not present in criminal court in d.c. like a lot of cities. one reason i was hired was for jurors who had concerns so one reason i was hired is concerned to had see this beautiful brown skin. it was supposed to send them a message. about 't have to worry that. it's all good. not all good. in d.c., there's one of the ighest rates of incarceration country. . you talk about your parent, but yale.ad to get into

had you to get into harvard law school. i had a great set of teachers in schools. -- the idea is then we were more ofty community because of segregation, doctors and lawyers same spaces n the and neighborhoods as bus drivers. more economic diversity. there was a sense that people took care of each other more. and, you know, in some ways, that's not true. look at rates of homicide, they were just as bad ink then as they are now but that of fielding hope --

kind of high school edge knew it because she would help me get into a good college, and i got a great education there. kicking and screaming. it was an all boy's

school. i didn't want to go there with a white kids. turned out to be one of the ingest decisions my mom made terms of having a positive life.t on my

to coerce people into pleading guilty. kennedy said ice recently we don't have a system the united ymore in states. we have a system of plea bargains. 95% of people who are charged end up pleading

guilty. prosecutors don't actually have that much evidence in part because cases aren't all that level. prosecutors, because it's just a misdemeanor, they're not really concerned about

convictions. witness kept changing his and about when it happened what happened. but his family couldn't make so he said they put him in confinement allegedly to protect him but what happened o him is what happens to virtually everybody, especially sent to solitary. something to your mind.

two years, the prosecution dismissed the case, he went home but still suffered demoans that we know happens to virtually everybody who's in solitary. day, not long after he released, he tied bed sheets to his neck and jumped out of window of his mother's house killing himself. a tragic case.

owners can just breed them like cattle, so the nation is whether a of 's founded on this idea black people as property and continued throughout to there are a million

and a half black men missing rom the combi in their primary working years, ages 20 through 50. hey're missing because they've uffered early death or because

benefits white elite. there's a ake money whole prison industrial complex that we can talk about these ays like we used to talk about the military industrial complex vietnam war.he o unfortunately, with this system, we have raised winners losers.ed

if you ty of people ask look rat the way that some of which seems ric race based and excludes folks white straight hristian men, that creates a status in being white. of this era essage of trump is that there's a value in being white and trump and his folks enhance ways, it'sso in some white ational for poor, people to vote for trump because status of ing that being white. lemmon who about don is an african-american and he talking about bill

criticism of young black men does not go far enough he had more comments. let's watch. >> raised without much structure. young, black men often reject towards and gravitate the street culture, drugs, hustling, gangs. forces them to do that. gain, it is a personal decision. >> i do not disagree with that. to the hip tention hop and black culture that many embrace. thug and ieieies reprehensible behavior.

lemmon.ke don complenlt journalist bust on this issue he's just wrong. he has a lot of good company. i talked about a speech that have ent obama of whom i the utmost respect but when the speech at ave this moorhouse college, the college for black men in the united states and he told them to stop making excuses, he cares how much discrimination you suffered. so from president obama, don lemmon, a lot of folks have this black men itique of about the way that we perform mass cue lynnty. the idea is just pull up our will be all good.

it would be helpful if some black men -- it would be elpful for them, i should say, if they were more in line with class white middle standards of respectability. . ey might get more

>> i second degree the police what's going on and they say arresting this guy for drunk driving and i said, well, i've seen him for an hour. he wasn't driving. you can see he's been sick and i but that just seems weird because he wasn't actually driving. you?they said who are and i said i'm just a concerned citizen. and they said, well, if you to be arrested, we 2 gest that you go back in house. >> white or black cops? >> two white officers. a young black man who got arrested. so i did what i hope other citizens would do. videotaped with my phone the encounter. sometimes that encourages police do the right thing.

there were these rolls of empty seats and this white guy plopped right down to me with a big smile on and it was annoying

because i like the extra room appreciated what that guy did. so there's an expression in the african-american community when better, you do better. so a lot of people probably idn't realize that unconsciously, they were avoiding sitting next to black men. learned aboutthey it, they took steps to correct

it. invited a verge organization, research organization into his office and had them everything his prosecutors do. he's a progressive. says i don't think we're doing anything that we're different ack folks from anybody else but to the empiral at's an question, i want good researchers to find out and what found through this reserenely is that almost every justice he criminal process, black folks got treated

goterently and usually they worse.d the idea is when you know better, you do better. encourage is police and collecting thert data. they can then take steps like this white guy did, they can steps to correct it. >> you dedicate your book to your father who is named paul butler. when did he die? >> he died a few years ago, about four or five years ago. a great actor. of roles in a lot august wilson plays.

he came up in chicago in the 1960s during the black arts movement. man through and through. believed in african-americans. he believed in the role of art in helping us h and what's often a creating nd but also around and activism justice.

do through my activism. >> excuse me. sit down. thanks, mike. walter, i know we have not and d on a lot of things, will.ot sure we ever

the first inauguration f president barack obama, he came with his partner and he all and out in the cold listened to president obama's

address.l at that moment, there was so much hope. man through , race and through. on that frigid day in january, i he believed in this nation had before. ever >> barack obama, 2014, at the keeper f my brother's and i want you to explain what has had.is >> i didn't have a dad in the house. it even angry about though i didn't necessarily realize it at the time. i made bad choices. i got high without always thinking about the harm it could do. i didn't always take school as seriously as i should have. i made excuses.

sold myself short. by almost every measure the of the most some severe challenges in this country are boys and young color. of >> what do you think of my brother's keeper? miss st, let me say, i president obama and seeing him, you know, addressing these i don't entirely gree with the way that he responded. keeper was the president's signature racial initiative. there was concern that the president had not been as he had been on some other issues such as lgbt rights womens issues.

so he was being pressed. the same time during the era of the first we can-american president, started having all of these and women lack men being beat up or killed by cops. the president in some ways was getting a pass. the president fe the president of the congressional black caucus said that if this stuff and there was a white person like bill clinton in office, they would be the white house congressmen said black folks were giving obama a he was black and he was being treated unfairly in other ways. i don't think president obama so finally pass and when he was pressed, he nuances initiative to help black at that press so

he was on his way to his dad's house when he was racist own by a neighborhood watchman. so what's the connection between ll of these young men being killed by the police and this to help black men.

the joke if i can bring and sharpton together, i must be doing something right. that a lot of s these programs designed to help basing this still choke hold stereotype that we're criminals and so these programs are designed to tame savage beast. absolutely need programs to initiatives that respond of our hose aspects

identity. bloomburg said i don't think are being k men stopped. so we have to ask if he's there brother's keeper initiative, what does he think program?urpose of this i think it's well intentioned and there's absolutely nothing ing black men p graduate from high school and giving them job training but these programs send the message.

misunderstands the force of supremacy, white privile privilege. have ithink white women okay or better, you don't get the problem. black women have the same set of black men and that's because of white supremacy. need to se black boys pants.p their

>> so this was when i was a department ith the of justice. it was the early 1990s, and hi case in high profile the department. i was the junior lawyer on a that was prosecuting a united states senator for public corruption. while i was working on that arrested.s >> how did it happen? >> so i was a young lawyer just d.c. to had an apartment that came with a parking space that i didn't

need. the bright idea that i would sublet my parking space to pay back some of those harvard loans. turns out that a neighbor of subletting it y even though it didn't belong to her. put on my big lawyer voice anticipate visited her with my lease that the space belongs to me. slams the door in my face and then somebody starts leaving threatening notes on white social n -- kind of o was mount -- a hard scrabble neighborhood. so she was very happy to find a space to park. and she was okay with the notes but they were getting more and threatening. and one day, at this time i'm floors, saw dust is everywhere so we leave the saw

ust out for their trash collectors to pick and one more over p, saw dust is all this person's car. and i see front my neighbor's name -- >> white or black? >> african-american woman. shoveling all this saw dust. i said i'm calling the police. look ating i did was go the car. one thing i learned is that d.c. take damage to cars very

seriously. police old up. you're under arrest. it was surreal. it can't be happening. under arrest? >> simple assault. hat's what you get when you have a fight with someone in d.c. i pushed her and then ran away. absurd s was patently partly because she always had wo big german shepards who she called canines. cops to ask the neighbors. they know the situation. just crazy. they said, well, you know, we're taking you to jail. or ere those cops white african-american? >> one was latino. there were about four cops there as i recall but

my arresting officer was latino. others were white and black. so did i play my trump card? i said i'm a prosecutor. responded so you probably know this already. right to remain silent. anything you say can or will be used against you. you have the right to an attorney. the privilegedre kicked in. i didn't have a right to one. was that my y hardest decision was who to call. of lessons from that. the justice s at department caused the u.s. d.c., the one who's prosecuting me, he says this is crazy. attorney says i know but your guy, paul, he had a case against someone in our office true. was i was a public corruption

officer. and i brought in a case against of the u.s. and he says wece would liked to have known about that case. got our guys. yours.'re going to get for me orked out well because i hired the best lawyer in town. a former public defender named roberts. things worked out well for me skills.i had trial i literally prosecuted people in i was being where prosecuted. things worked out well for me because i had social standing. made sure that jury knew that i went to yale and harvard. character great witnesses. i knew how to present myself as black man who a d.c.

to send to t wand jail. race -- in the jury? predominantly african-american. people o or three white jury.e as a prosecutor, you learn how read juries. when she's testifying, the

jurors are sitting there like anything she ving said and that was before some of witnesses, ent prosecution witnesses came forward. and the prosecutor made a mistake. you learn never to ask a question you don't know the to.wer they said no she lies about everything. happen. this didn't we don't know why we're here. so jury takes less than ten me not guilty. >> had you been convicted, what would have been your sentence? very unlikely that i would stale.ne to i probably would have gotten service.y it was a first time misdemeanor. in terms of my reputation and have sion, it would destroyed me.

i didn't tunately, outcome.t you are say it has a psychological impact on you. i have a record. >> there's still people in the .s. attorneys office who look at me differently. nd one reason i have this chapter in choke hold for other people who find themselves in criminal of the justice system is that now i kind of empathy. i beat my case. i have a whole chapter that how you can beat case.

i couldn't deal with that. you ll me if i'm wrong but basically conclude in this boom that this problem can't be solved. at all. so i have some short term reform solutions, and then some transform at this ways that we nation can get to a better

place. it's unlikelygest to happen hopeful. > all i know is i would be scared of us too. images e these constantly of black men committing crimes. men eality is most black have never committed any violent crime. us have been f arrested. about 50%. but most of those are for low crimes like smoking weed

the turnstile at a subway. so the number one victims are other black men. is very e person concerned about being a victim of crime, the main person she to be concerned about is her intimate partner or her husband. because statistically, that's the person who's most likely to cause her harm. or his chances of being the victim of a violent crime by less than one are in 500. you see a ay is if young black men in baggy pants street behind you on the at night, your evidence-based he's tion should be that on his way to work or school or the movies. he's much more likely to be that than he is to be trying to rob you. so what's the biggest, most

important solution to the problem? terms of police violence, police being quicker n the draw, there are two things we could do right now that would make a huge difference. cops should be women. and cops should be college educated. female cops, college educated ops are less likely, way less likely to use force including deadly force. working uch better at out problems without arresting people. like what president obama's task force on policing recommended. police ought to be guardians. too many officers now have this mentality. when they patrol communities of them, women inst c enforcing s good as the law. other big solution, this is

abolition.ial, is when we think about racial states, in the united they've all been movements for abolition. bolition of slavery, abolition of the old jim crow. prison hold calls for abolition. >> what? >> it sounds reckless. it that we think prison does. do?t do we want to things. two

they haven't received the same that they need to not go back to a life of crime. so prison is not keeping us safe offenders. and it's certainly not making responsible for the harm that they've caused. pleading guilty not because they're being accountable but because, again, want the book thrown at them if they go to trial. lots of communities. brooklyn is a great example. common justice where when men are accused of violent crimes, men and women people in the program are men, if the victim consents to prove outside of the criminal justice system and into this justice where the victim and the person who has down, workm, they sit it out, including in a way that feel whole.ctim

victims overwhelmingly say they than prison.ter they like this better than jail. a kind of em have closure that they don't get from prison. again, it's an idea that you're going to hear a in the future. thank you, paul, butler very much. >> it's an honor. me.nk you for having

i don't write about the speech. i write about a kid who was that dayd for a murder he didn't do and how that speech

in ed an interesting role im eventually being