country, namely north korea. that is, as i said, we have many options to do so. thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. >> do you believe they have a nuclear warhead? >> was it a hydrogen bomb? is the president going to war, secretary mattis? >> united states security council will hold a meeting tomorrow to discuss a response to north korea's latest nuclear test. we will have life coverage of the security council's meeting tomorrow on c-span. clark,&a with anthony author of the last campaign. talk high school teachers about using current events in a lesson plans. after that, the annual labor day

briefing from the u.s. chamber of congress. ♪ >> this week on q&a, author and former congressional staffer anthony clark. he discusses his book, "the last how presidents a run for prosperity and in trying their legacy." anthony clark, i want you to see some video before we talk about your book from october 1996. >> you know, this is my last campaign and maybe i will run for school board sunday. [laughter] brian: your book is called the last campaign. he said that moment got you the title. why? anthony: i saw that moment in a

political science budget class in 2003 and decided to write my thesis for that semester on that idea that a presidential library is the president last campaign, not the final electoral contest. and when i finished that paper, said this is a book, you should consider making this into a book. a week later, i got into an rv i had an troubled to all the essential libraries in six weeks, the once i had not been to yet. i came back convinced that maybe there was more than a book in it. for me, going to the presidential libraries was only the beginning of the journey. because seeing the libraries as a tourist was different from researching in the records and going to the national archives and seeing how the libraries developed. it was because of what i found and what i couldn't find that it changed from a simple, almost a travelogue on what the presidential libraries are and

what they mean to the people, into an examination of the process in which they are created and funded and administered and it became a whole different book. brian: how many presidential libraries are there? anthony: there are technically 13, there will be 14 maybe or maybe not, depending on how the national archives or obama condition work out the arrangement. it looks like from this point, the obama foundation will not donate like their 13 present predecessors 13 built with the obama presidency. there might be 13. brian: we will come back to that, but in the interim he said he got into an rv. did you have your family with you? anthony: i was married at the time and my wife was a physician at the time. brian: what year? anthony: 1993. brian: what was the first thing

you notice? anthony: i noticed people were gathering around one particular exhibit, a letter someone had written to president truman returning his sons for heart. and the letter was angry and the letter said that margaret truman was a man so that president truman should experience what he experienced in the loss of his son. the reason why that is an exhibit at the library is that when president truman died, they went through his office at the library and that letter and purple heart were still in the office 20 years later. and i see it as an understanding that the president had of the response ability of his office kindhen president truman of the library, he didn't want to memorialize himself, he wanted people to know with the presidency was like. to me come up more than any other exhibit at that library, that letter and that metal demonstrate that. brian: when you talk to the staff there, what did you notice with them? of the: the staff, one

step members was there when president truman was still alive. that theonfirm folklore he did occasionally greet visitors and it did mingle. but she also said that his focus was really on the archives rather than the exhibits. and the folks who were there worked on the records a long decades anden for were knowledgeable about what was there and what was not there, what i could see a nazi. you don't get that -- see and not see. you don't get that with the other records. knewlly felt like they maybe the most about the records there. brian: when did you write your jesus? -- your thesis? it -- 2003.3 or brian: before or after your rv

trip? anthony: after. delicacy was the notion. i had no idea to what extent they really did that. i do not have access to the records of how they planned it, the relationship between the national archives and the private foundations that built the libraries. that came later. to thehow do you explain average person this story and how do we fit in all the players, including the national archives, records administration? anthony: it's great to start with the beginning. -- fdr --ent wanted , there wasd war ii serious consideration that the records of the new deal and his personal collection will be lost. for many many months, truck's went back and forth between washington and hyde park and they created this library. from the beginning, the idea was

to create a place to store has until records for prosperity. as an afterthought, president roosevelt crated a small exhibit space where he could show people the gifts he got from the american people. he called it the oddities room. also a place to display his naval trends and naval memorabilia. at the time, he had the largest collection of stamps in the world, i think 1.2 million stamps. he figured people would pay a nickel and see it and that would help defray the cost. over time, the emphasis on those exhibits far exceeded the emphasis of the records. so now we have a situation where president obama is planning to build a so-called present a library that won't have presidential records and won't be administered by the national archives like his predecessors. brian: i want to share some president obama describing what his facility is

going to be like in chicago. it, it is notion just a building. we are looking at transforming jackson park so that it once again becomes a people's part. -- people's park. the liddy to use these amazing lagoons and wooden island so that people are actually enjoying the park and the activities in the park and -- [applause] and it creates a sense of life and vibrancy. that's why what you will see in the design involves children's play centers and a sweating hill because michelle always told me she was mad at during the winter she couldn't sweat because there was no hill down here. it's about hope. brian: your reaction? anthony: not a presidential library in terms of the model fdr created. historiansg about

coming to access records to write the history of the obama administration. the first time president obama made a comment about his presents a library, he was quoted in a book called the promise, where he said he would not build a traditional presidential library. he would just digitize the records. it was like that is what he is going to do. they will pay for the archives to digitize the records and get them out perhaps sooner. what hisusing more on institution can do for the future rather than looking back to the past. brian: go back to the fdr library which he said was the first one. what year? anthony: 1941. brian: how much did that cost than compared to what obama is planning to spend? build the50,000 to fdr library and the estimate varies between $500 million and $1.5 billion for the obama foundation. this was before president obama

announced he would not be donating the museum. if you are president who has left office and you raise money and build a library and you donated to the government, according to law, you have to give the government 6% of the cost of building the library as an endowment to help defray the cost. 60% of $1.5 billion is an awful lot of money and personally, i think that may have laid a role in the foundation's decision not to donate. because they can build a library, or museum, they can build the obama center, they don't give it to the government, they don't have to give the government any money. brian: where can we find research being done in the future on president obama? it's unclear. all the archives have said so far is that records will be housed in existing archives facility. that was plural. of thethe best benefits presidential library act for the initial archives is that you don't have to find space in existing locations to store and

preserve and make them available. difficult thing for researchers because if it is multiple facilities, does that mean maybe the national archives in chicago plus the national archives in d.c. and college park, maryland? we don't know yet. brian: back in your trip, you visited the truman library. where did you go next? anthony: the dwight eisenhower library about two hours away. brian: what was your memory of that? campus, multiple buildings on-site, large chapel where he and his son are buried. the year after he died, 750,000 people came to visit his grave, 1969-1970. that remains the height what are marked of any 12 month. period for any presidential library. i was an 80's us at the time and it felt most like a military

base in terms of neatly laid out design of the campus. there was a military monument to him, a large statue. i also felt like it was geared towards his whole career, rather than just his presidency. there was far more about his time in the army as a general, which is awfully -- also borne say hepeople who preferred to be called general. especially post-presidency. i hadas the first notion that presidential libraries might look at things from the life perspective rather than the presidency. president clinton's library is focused on the eight years of his presidency. does not go into his previous time as lieutenant governor or bid for or his previous congress and it doesn't talk about his post-presidency. it focused on those eight years. brian: go back to eisenhower campus. his childhood home is on the property. the chapel there, to a three other buildings.

what was your sense of value of the archive and how often has it been used? anthony: i was working mostly with records about the building of the presidential ivory. i was one of the first researchers to work on them. i got the sense that it was not as well utilized as some of the newer libraries. although the catch-22, the as library has far more records open. the reagan, bush libraries have far fewer records open but it seems to be more inches in the newer libraries in general. that's a problem i think happens with presidential libraries. if you look at something that happened during an administration, like the cold war, you can't just go to appling, kansas to research the cold war. to dorchester, massachusetts, austin, texas, because these records are not in a central location. while they might not be utilized on any given day, i think that

the 400 plus million records that make up the presidential record archives, i would say the libraries as a whole unit are the sickle greatest source of american history over the last 80 years. brian: go back to the number. 400 million. what? anthony: pages of records throughout the president celebrities. brian: how much of that is digitized today? anthony: probably less than one million pages, maybe a little bit more. digitization is not a popular topic right now because of the cost. who is going to barrett? -- bear it? ae kennedy foundation credit fund to digitize 400 pages of records. there is a lot of records in the nixon library. when x and library was created, it was private initially. all the president of records were held at national archives. all the personal records were given back to the foundation, the nixon.

when nixon became part of the national archives, they were joined. all the personal records brought back into the national archives were digitized and made online. brian: where did you go after the eisenhower library? anthony: the herbert hoover presidential library. brian: how long was a drive from that? anthony: more than a day because it was a pilot. -- it was inas iowa. west branch has the historic hoover site, with a blacksmith shop and quicker meeting shop. he only lived there for a short period of time. he and henry hoover are buried there, as well. at the first three libraries, the archivist set a high bar because they were interested in helping, but they were also interested in summary coming to ask about their history as opposed to policy they have gone

over. they were inordinately hopeful, just in saying, you should look at this film will look at the series, but talk on breaks. was able to interview most of that staff, sometimes staying late afterwards. i got to speak to the director and they were helpful in making sure i had what i needed to tell the story. brian: how long would you stay at each of these? anthony: first time was probably four or five days. over the 12 year period i took to write the book, i spent a month in each of the libraries except george w. bush, which opened right before i finish the book. brian: if we follow you around, what would we see you doing? anthony: the first thing i do would spend a day as a tourist area i tried not to read too much about the exhibits. second day i would go back and watch people. maybe talk to people as they came out and some people would

technique outside and i would approach them and say, you might talking to me for a few minutes? the third day i would spend taking photographs. i learned the hard way you have people you are going to take 3000 photographs of your music. brian: what did you do for all your photographs? anthony: i wanted -- i initially thought i would be critiquing the history. i thought that i would make an effort to say, this is what historians agree happened with this particular issue. here is how the library describes it. that got sidetracked when i got into records and looking at the process of how they were built. but it also helps to refer back pointy, that decision theater, was that in the fort -- after 13, they can blend together. in that time, who did you want to read it?

what impact did you want it to have? anthony: initially i wanted the general public to get a sense of what they are. as time went on, i got closer to what the book became, i went policymakers to have a good understanding of what goes on and what maybe needs to be changed. brian: robert caro in 2003, senior you are doing this, was at the lbj library. i want you to hear what he was saying and it program we did with them. belonging to say you can come in here as a historian and the work without their help. there is no way anybody can know what is in these files. all these years they have been directing me to write places. so when you say these administrations and is library has not looked in favor on my books -- >> why would that be? >> you have to ask them.

that is quite an understatement. i think the archives here has never stopped helping me. brian: couple things. at a time, you cannot buy one of his books at the library. i want to show you a picture recently taken at the obj library and there you see his books in the shop being sold. what do you think happened to change that and what does that say to you as you are doing the research that they didn't use to sell them? anthony: harry middleton was handed chosen by president johnson, friend of the family, worked for president johnson. believe harryle was the reason why robert hurt was books were not sold and why he was not asked to come and speak. one of the first things he did was invite robert hurt to speak to speak and caro put his books in that.

firstrst foundation, director, may be more protective of the foundation. these positions running the libraries are federal positions. one of the problems i talk about in the book is that the national archives allows the private foundations to veto their choice of the federal employee who runs the library. presidents -- precedents in the law that says because there is going to be a new process by which these records are evaluated and opened to the product -- public, sitting president can have first rights because there is a 12 year period after the president's office with a president can hold records. so i have confidence the records would uphold the document president could consult. that has been extended to former

presidents and their second and third directors. getting back to betty c flowers, i think she was making it clear that there was a new administration that there was going to be more equitable in terms of who should speak. robert caro is the prime biographer of johnson and he never spoke at the library. brian: he has since then, though? anthony: i believe so. brian: we have a photograph of some things you can buy there. goes back to again the idea that if there is a series research facility or tourist attraction or both. some of the libraries actually products.bipartisan the next and library come -- the nixon library, this is the anatomic lbj. -- animatronic lbj.

he is in the field and wearing a cowboy hat and telling jokes. the jokes were recorded jokes from his speeches. the animatronics lbj would move in a stiff way. stiff one of more of the photograph in the library. brian: what was your reaction to the shops versus the research versus the museums? anthony: the shops are interesting because some are run to foundations and some were run by the national archives. the foundations, you would have less books, fewer touristy tchotchkes, whereas the foundations that run the gift shops tend to push maybe their political bent. brian: how do people find out who is running for the shops? anthony: you have to ask. one of the other problems is, the weight the artist works with the foundation, some of the libraries have been donated to the government.

some of them are under a memorandum of understanding and agreement. some of them are co-run. the reagan library, you pay a $26 fee but more than half of that does not go to the archives, which is a sensibly running the library. the rest of it goes to the finance -- foundation. brian: there is one in ohio that came along before that. of the -- rutherford b. hayes. did you go to that? firsty: i didn't read the -- i didn't. want to wase i franklin d. roosevelt. the hayes library is a state-supported. anthony: just like lincoln area -- lincoln. brian: i want to show you another video of allen weinstein, who was the archivist during what president? anthony: during the george w. bush administration, two dozen

5-2008. brian: let's watch. >> physically we follow the laws. the freedom of information act. resources have a backlog of presidential libraries, a significant backlog to get everything out. that's because we don't have the funding to have a trained archivist to help the process. anthony: i agree. except there is a secondary point to be made. there are not enough archivist butrocess these records, they begins do not employ people. they work on the public side. they work on sometimes the gift shop, sometimes the educational program given school judge in coming to learn about the president. the work on exhibits, traveling exhibits, public programming. winelibraries can have

tastings and hayrides and dancing lessons. the national archives has the funds to employ those people. maybe they need to shift the funds from that public legacy towards archiving. brian: how much money is given to the national archives to function with the whole process, including the presidential libraries? anthony: just under $400 million, and $100 million goes to the presidential libraries. brian: how is the archivist chosen? anthony: nominated by the president and confirmed by the president and -- president. brian: what would be the difference between harry middleton and betty sue flowers and there were others since then that have been ahead of that library. what is the real difference? anthony: the emphasis director

pleases -- the emphasis the director places on the employee employed by this federal archives. making them available, and directors that function more as an employee of the foundation that creates it. when david serio became archivist, you could be the federal employee that directs the library and the executive rector of the foundation that supports the library at the same time. he saw that as a conflict of interest which i agree. brian: how big are these foundations? yearsy: up until a few ago, the eisenhower foundation had a goal of raising $400,000 a year and they give all of it to the national archives to use however the archive wishes. 15,everal years in the past the reagan library foundation has raised more than $50 million a year. that is the scope between the size of the foundation. brian: what does the reagan

foundation do with their money? anthony: they operate a portion of the library is not deed over to the government so they can use it for political purposes. you can't use government buildings or government land under the hatch act for by president clinical purpose. -- bipartisan political purpose. the air force one that serves the president has a marine one helicopter. an irish pub that the reagan visited in ireland. that was not deeded to the government. the foundation host are married debates from the candidates in the republican parties, speakers series and events. you can even rent, if you want to have an event and rent that part of it. brian: how much money comes from the national archives on the federal side of it to each of the libraries? around $2 million

for each one, i think. or four, i'm not current on specifics. between funding of each presidential libraries and the capital fund that improves the buildings as they get older, it is about $100 million total. brian: back to your trip. we have been to, eisenhower, hoover, who is next? anthony: texas. lyndon johnson, george h.w. bush. i want to the austin one first and i have seen that as a ,hange, the break in the modest simple structures that house records and allow space for public exhibits. story on theght campus of university of austin. like president roosevelt, it was during president johnson's term barffice and has raised the

significantly for future presidential libraries. brian: i remember when it opened it was free. i want to some of the numbers what it cost to get in these libraries now. lbj is now up to $10. anthony: that was just the past three or four years. brian: why did they change it? anthony: cost and differing the cost. they completed a $10 million renovation of the exhibits and that was one of the weight to defray those costs. brian: want to talk about some of the list, bill clinton $10, brian: as we talk about the money i want to go through some of the lists. bill clinton, $10. $19.$18, george bush, hoover, $10. $9, which isr bush, the lowest.

lincoln, $15. the lowest at $8. do you know who the highest is? reagan? >> $29. brian: and some of the nongovernment places like the washington and mount one is $18. with . brian: what do you think of a $29 entry fee? anthony: it's going to the foundation, not archives, number one. officials in the archives say our role is to preserve and records and e the we have appropriated funds for that. the foundations get to charge of admission to help defray their costs. most of the exhibits are, the exhibit, right, physical, the screens and the printed materials and the cases, paid for by the foundation. the people who work on the help curate are a

mix. they believe the foundations are mess to help support the ongoing efforts at public programming and exhibits at speaker series programming, so they, they tend to acquiesce to the foundation's wishes. i want to show you a and the a statue of lbj library that you went you and the museum and ask you who would this?paid for anthony: that was most likely the foundation, the lbj foundation. been the t have national archives. brian: the public wouldn't know that? public wouldn't know how much of their money is going to the foundation as opposed to the national archives and how much going towards preserving opposed to creating new exhibits. brian: can you today be the director of the foundation and run the library at the same time? current not the way the archivists have made the

decision but that's not set in stone. executive order a new one can come in and change that back. rian: i'll show you a picture of another famous founder. his name is james madison. there is a library of congress after him and this is a statue there. he does not have a library. have a home down in montpellier where you can go through and it's quite expensive to go through there. $22. why doesn't a man like madison have a library? of the things that's happened over the past few decades is that hometown earlier presidents have tried to lobby the national to say can you please include us notice federal system. i know there was a push a few to s ago under don wilson have the woodrow wilson presidential library in stanton, in the , included federal system, and even though roosevelt was the first, earliest y, the president to have a federal live funded his 20 years later but there is a

general acceptance between congress rchives and that hoover is the earliest president who will have a federal presidential library. when you went on your trip in 2003 did you go to every library on the same trip? went to all the libraries i hadn't visited, as a tourist prior to that the carter and roosevelt libraries so i didn't include those in that trip. brian: how many times have you back to all of these libraries? >> at least three times to all of them except george bush. there once. brian: what did you see, this one is e george w. bush a newer one. did you see in the george w. bush library and museum compared to his father's, and dallas and the other ne is over in college station, texas. anthony: there is one similarity. they both created a ignificant -- they both dedicated a significant part of to iraq.ibit

irsay i would say for their presidencies. of 9/11, war on terror, iraq and afghanistan. discuss oot panel to and the financial crisis hurricane katrina. it's balanced toward the same general topic. hat george bush's library has is something called the decision points theater. in truman, you can sit in a be presented ned with decisions that president truman had been offered, and the to vote on what provision they would have made. that's been replicated at the library, at the clinton library and generally speaking, you have information after choose to say, well, thank you for making your choice but the and dent made this choice this is why. at that time decision points theater at the george bush out m, the president comes afterwards and tells you, kind

of why you were wrong. if you choose the path that the president didn't choose and you can choose surge, whether you send federal troops into new orleans during hurricane whether you intervene in the financial crisis, and you slickly done.ry there is a lot of video, you can all up two competing advisers who argue about what best to do, there is breaking news that might influence your decision actually during the process, which takes about four minutes, ou're asked to continually press a button to tell the system whether or not you're leaning towards what the resident did or maybe some other decision. kind of like live polling during a debate. end, the audience votes and then the president himself comes out in a pre-recorded statement. the number of pre-recorded tatements for the library that president bush has made far exceeds the total sum of all the other ones together. only because it's the

newest one but because they have learned from other foundations and other presidential libraries what seems to work. brian: how many of the 13 oval ng libraries have an office? so there is ruman, johnson, nixon, ford, arter, reagan, there is a half exhibit, kind of a half an oval ffice at the george bush library, clinton and bush. they have kind of a set that has his desk and his chair but it's not a full scale replica. do you think of it? anthony: that first day i would to d as a tourist, i tried stop any kind of thoughts of criticism or, you know, how much is this costing the taxpayers, libraries frankly are really thrilling. two favorite oval offices are clinton and george w. bush. the clinton library was the to use natural light to

bring into -- so you're not looking at, let's say a fake the president's desk and you can walk around it. since the last time i visited into it now. george w. bush library created corner of the building and outside is a replica of the rose garden so there is the portico, walkway and they call at this time texas rose garden. t gives visitors a much better understanding of kind of what the place looks like, what it eels like, i have been, as a tourist, i have been to the real oval office a couple of times, and both of those libraries capture the feeling and spirit of what it's like to be there. in what ook came out year? >> 2015. >> the paperback -- did you have a hard back version? not.did brian: who published it? >> i self-published it, i got turned down by 29 publishers. i got one offer from one publisher, well respected cademic publisher but they wanted to cold the copy right in perpetuity and i was advised, i ad spent so much time and effort on it that was bad idea.

>> how did you self-publish? used create space, amazon company and produced it through there. sell?: how did it >> moderately. i think more people in media and but what's ought it interesting is that every single omment i've received has been one of either two topics. how angry people are to learn hat's happening, or how flabbergasted they are to learn what's happening. i haven't received any kind of it was , i read it and okay. brian: why are they angry? anthony: they are angry about these t we have presidential libraries that are created to house records, especially for the most recent nes, the records won't be open for a hundred years and instead we're paying for celebration and legacy building. brian: you said you had been to the jfk library. want to show some pictures around that. the one is the corridor with the red carpeting, it looks a little like the white house itself. what did you see in the jfk library that you hadn't seen anywhere else? anthony: yeah, that was the

feeling that you get, that you're in the white house. the first that's monumental tal. don't see the lbj library specifically monumental to the president. when the foundation was created, f. kennedy memorial library foundation was created wakecember 6, 1963, in the of the assassination and the goal of the library was not just to build the presidential a nation's monument president, this photograph here as you walk out -- one of the clearly the most inspiring vistas at any of the presidential libraries. 1960 debates he with richard nixon, you have as you know, one of the podiums and picture of richard nixon. anthony: yes. rian: how do they treat the substance at the jfk library? anthony: i think they treat the ubstance less than the nixon

library does about the same topic. that people tale who watch the debate on elevision -- the kennedy library exhibit is geared towards that tale. ust look at the two, you get a sense of the man and you can judge for yourself. texas, ter, you were in before the joornlg w. bush library, where did you go on tour?003 anthony: california. i went out to the reagan and which, going to, those two at the same time was things, one of two episodes that changed the course of the book. reagan library, and there was, most of the libraries campaigns, ts on the and they will have the standard map.oral at the time, blue was for republicans and red was for a 1984, and they had

plastic sign. t was small, about this big, and the entire map was blue except for minnesota. which wasn't red. you couldn't see minnesota. so many people had touched it, fact that to the reagan had won 49 states, and people touch ched it and say, look at this to their friends and families, that the color and ff that little map told me, that kind of reaction that people astonished, that people that came to the library mostly likee someone they admired ronald reagan maybe didn't know that or remember and were so taken by just that one little that they touched it, that i thought, professor sutton is book in here.s a brian: why is the ronald reagan ibrary and museum so much bigger than all the rest? think, did you say something

like 200,000 feet? nthony: it was 150,000 before they built the extension for air force one. the short answer is they had the money and the long answer, i by that time, by the of 1980s, the idea monumentally commemorating a president and making sure that history is written by the family and by the foundation and really had taken hold. nd the eight years of the reagan administration are not as much the focus of the library as is his prior career actor. they downplay the fact that he was a spokesman and president of guild but you rs can go in and act in a movie with ronald reagan on a blue a een and give a talk at teleprompter and get photographed there and you can play an -- you can conomic game where you can change the course of the benefits and have a positive

impact on the economy. rian: what do you make of the fact for years now, chairman of the foundation that ronald fred ryan, y named e's also the c.e.o. and publisher of the "washington post," and for a very long time, chairman of the foundation who ran cnn johnson and l.a. times. here are two media people running the foundation. difference?e a anthony: making a difference to what's inside? brian: does it matter who runs foundations and are you surprised that the post c.e.o. would be running the reagan foundation? anthony: fred ryan was ronald reagan's chief-of-staff in retirement and he actually foundation and founded the presidential library. he's the longest serving of any foundation library director so that came first. you're right that he was one of co-founders and ran politico and then the "washington post." would argue that the coverage library and the

is maybe not st" as -- rian: i think it changes a couple of things. anthony: you know, when leave office they immediately start losing their ability to raise as much money they were in while office. so you need someone with onnections and reach and clout to be able to continue that high fundraising and the reagan oundation continues to be the highest fundraising of all. brian: the first federal of the nixon library and museum wanted to do was the watergate exhibit. i have picture of the watergate exhibit during his time and some things that were on the wall there. this the background on story and how well did he, who i republican, a not,e had him here and he's

what impact did that have and, own , you talk about your partisan situation. being much impact does partisan have on this story? anthony: his first act as was to dismantle the watergate exhibit even before hey had a plan to replace it because he said it was fundamentally inaccurate, and i agreed.st historians tim is a historian by training and by practice. think that while no one can completely remove partisan tendencies, i think his store with a arians -- historians strife more than many. i think he did an excellent job had been for 17 years a private organization that could a whatever they want into federal system, which, not everyone in the nixon camp have someone like tim

to be there because he was ininistering, in my opinion, a nonpartisan governmental way rather than as a legacy urnishing -- brian: they thought the opposite. nthony: there was a point at hich the foundation went to faucet, and said -- you just with him anymore. this was not because of anything, i believe that he was that was inappropriate, it's that he was producing fact-based history rather than celebratory legacy, sharon and duke, who was then and still is the director library, he was also at the time, he was also the executive director of the oundation of the presidential library at reagan, they went to tim and said, we'll let you put watergate exhibit in that you want to, without any interference from the nixon resign.ut you have to and they gave him that choice

and he refused to resign. watergate exhibit installed as he want and several months later then on his own terms left. tell a story in your book about richard nixon that has never been told before. is it. anthony: he stole 4,000 acres marine united states corps to pulled his presidential have have been ould the most inspiring area. you're not allowed to transfer, allowed s, you're not to build presidential libraries on federal property. thead to find a way to take property away from the u.s. marine corps, department of the avy and the general services administration and put it into either private or state hands. of e, against the objection those organizations, the marine corps said it was vitally important to use that particular this is during vietnam, they were training, all the west coast marines to go out vietnam, usually when a department declares a federal goes to the ss, it

general services administration and they offer it to all the to r agencies and they have turn it down so there is a lengthy prescribed legal process records and richard nixon went around that process lease the land to the state of california and the governor at the time was ronald reagan long term lease, which is up in just a few years, y the way to allow those 4,000 achers to be transferred to the state of california and then the plan was to have the nixon state ion work with the of california to take about 167 acres in the middle of that to build the library. >> camp pendleton right next to a home chard nixon had in san clemente. why didn't it happen because that library museum is in a yor belinda? anthony: the person on this was john dean and there were a lot memos back and for the between john dean and the president saying we need 20 lay for the library

in anticipation of the 1972 election. we don't want congress to get wind of the plan. of a secret plan, if you will, and then by the time he affect ice, they did that lease and when the lease was announced it was announced be a state beach and park, and the big push was, that is givingl government back this unnecessary, unused property to the people and they can use it for recreation. brian: how can someone buy your book? barnes through amazon, & noble. >> was it worth it, all the time you spent on putting this book out? think so it changed my life a little bit. i went back to work for congress book.esult of the and was actually spent time working on the subcommittee that presidential libraries. brian: i want to show you a picture of a building that sits next to the jfk library. it's called the emk institute. this is what it looks like. it's a picture there of a of the senate, and the

senate and the house passed a bill that put a lot of money into this thing. it's right next to jfk, what do you think of that? anthony: i've not yet been to exhibit. i understand they use it not just for tourists but there is that they n program use it for which is clearly the and largest of these kind of put you in the president or of the member of congress, the library has a process where they bring and even adults in and they have role playing, the same library has thing. the reagan library has the same thing but it's a higher level of and policy making. brian: is it worth several put on taxpayer dollars to this right next to the jfk library? anthony: i don't think so. think the kennedy foundation could well have raised the money for that on their own. in there only thing that's really ted kennedy is the replica of his office? yes.ny: brian: that he had.

anthony: named for him as opposed to celebrating him. i want to show you some video -- he used to be the congress. we did a tour, you may have seen 22 or 23 they put president's papers, we did a live show there years ago, and, goes atter of fact, it 1999.o here's jim. >> we ordinarily don't go in here. i don't think we've ever done before but we're anxious to of your readers at the end the long consideration of the presidency how we know things about our past leaders. are they housed as we go down? >> you will find they are housed in different ways. them are bound. of was the approved method conservation until really just war.r the second world we then began putting them in

acid free boxes, and within boxes, individually in containers.in mylar the jefferson papers. >> you'll be able to see what he's talking about. a history of see conservation as we walk through r concentration theories and philosophies as we walk through the division. you will see things inbound volumes. see things in boxes. and even in some other forms. it was good enough for george washington then why isn't it good enough for presidents today? anthony: that's a question we ask the congress. the congress has not revisited presidential libraries and what the focus should be. whether the money should be exhibits as the opposed to the records and how quickly the records should be brooch. t show you a t to video from 2010. the hearing when they got all -- they rent directors got together and you were

working, you were working for lacy clay? anthony: is this the one in 2011? brian: yes. want the quick back story on that? broo quick. anthony: in 2010 we tried to schedule a number of hearings on subcommittee about the relationship between the foundations and presidential libraries. comfortable,one is not every private organization is comfortable with and therenal scrutiny were requests made through hannels to have those hearings canceled. brian: which party was in charge? democrats were in charge at the time and when the house flipped the republicans and the leadership of the committees changed, one of the first acts a the committee was to hold very celebratory hearing and then a symposium later that day at the hearing one of the two -- it was a co-led hearing, had f the two chair men said i want to make it clear

from the outset we're not here to investigate the presidential foundations.the we're here to celebrate them. brian: i want to give folks a flavor. the first person up, janet -- ith calvin coolidge, who does not have a library. you can get the forbes library t smith college has some stuff but here we go. >> it seems to me that there be more oversight for important historical papers than this. papers that are so important to the history of this country. effect fund these projects as worthy as they are, we'll have to raise somewhere in he neighborhood of $9 million, a project that would be unprecedented in the history of the hoover presidential library. terms of the endowment level i think now and tell me if now at 60% t, it's for the obama library which is a significant amount of money. >> let me address a point that up in the discussion earlier today and that was the consternation that the in place s might be

simply to polish the halos of the presidents that they represent. private funds. budget is salaries. making sure we don't have leaks security.ilding and >> many kansas school districts and also some school districts and lorado, oklahoma, nebraska, are saying that they can't afford to come to abilene. like to bring us back to the digitization topic that a while back, in that we're not, most of us, able on the ings thus far scale flat kennedy library has. brian: that was six years ago. you are you hearing that want to comment on. anthony: the national archives sked the directors to increase attendance, in any way they can, and the directors report, archives to the saying, here's how many people came in, and it doesn't matter whether it's researchers or it's tourists. they get those numbers because the numbers help defend the budget, which helps to promote numbers and it becomes this kind of circle.

that you would digitize records has for decades been a problem for some in the believe ifcause they you digitize records people won't come. they won't have the attendance figures. budget.'t get the >> i'm looking at some figures of attendance. hoover, in 2014, 43,000 for the year. fdr.for 59,000 for truman. 186,000 for eisenhower. 296 for john f. kennedy. johnson, 139,000. nixon, 85,000. jimmy carter, 52. george w. bush was 491,000 because it just opened. was at 334.ton onald reagan, 383,000 and george h.w. bush 136,000. enough people? it depend on what you

want to do. certainly not enough people in the research rooms. to as difficult for me self-fund all of these trips and to spend time in the research rooms. also depends on what -- as a system what do we want the system to do? place to it to be a 20 act tourists or a place preserve and make available the records of the presidency. tax : are these funds deductible? anthony: they are not. brian: why not? anthony: as far as donations? it would depend on how they set then, if it's a nonprofit, yes. brian: and how much do we know about who contributes? nthony: we only know what's voluntarily disclosed by some of the foundations. here is no law that requires disclosure and there is no law that prohibits donations. why do foreign governments give to these presidential libraries, saudi koreans, kuwaitis, you can go down the list, japan. former i think 2 presidents either through their

own acts, through the administration, through their members, exert an inordinate influence on governmental policy and they also want to be seen. just like any other stake holder, whether you're a person hometown or ng the whether you're a former cabinet official who wants to see your record, you know, seen as positive in terms of the administration, there are a lot to take holders who want give money to promote the legacy of the president. brian: the name of the book is "the last campaign." how presidents rewrite history, run for prosperity and enshrine as our guest , said, it's self-published. our guest is anthony clark. very much.k you >> thank you, brian. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2017] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] *-*-

transcripts, visit us at q and a .org. >> here are some other programs you might like. naftali, his work on the ixon presidential library and museum in california. allen weinstein, who served as for the united states. and paul sparrow on his work as irector of the franklin d. roosevelt library and museum in hyde park, new york. any time or these search our entire video library at cspan.org.

c-span's washington journal live every day with news an policy issues that impact you. coming up monday morning, right nt of the national to work. discusses right to work laws. economist forrer, institute.c policy be sure to watch the washington journal life at 7:00 eastern morning. join the discussion. > next, two high school teachers who are named 2017 discuss aching fellows ow they use current events in their lesson plans, and then the annual labor day briefing from and at 11:00 p.m., author of the "the last campaign." >> for the past 23 years,-s