the -- as always, we will take your calls and you can join the conversation on facebook and twitter as well. washington journal is next. ♪ .ost: good morning saturday, the 21st, 2017. today, the headlines on the ongoing war of words between the white house and a member of congress over the way president donald trump contacts gold star family's. after the chief of staff john kelly accused frederica wilson of grandstanding about securing funds for a net the i memorial, a video of the dedication -- contradicted his account. another report suggests the white house scrambled to contact other gold star family's after president trump said he reached

out to nearly every family that had lost a military service member this year. we are asking members of the military only, what are your thoughts on the fallen soldier controversy? eastern or central time zone, call 202-748-8000. mountain and pacific time zones, call 202-748-8001. if you are a member of a gold star family, we have a special line, 202-748-8002. we just on social media on and on kate aronoff, and o @csj facebook at facebook.com/c-span. morning, itll this says in the hours after donald trump said on in an october 17 radio broadcast, he had contacted nearly every family that had lost a military service member.

the white house was hustling to learn from the pentagon the identities and contact information for the families. shows thatxchange senior white house aides were aware on the day the president made the statement it was not accurate and they should try to make it accurate as soon as possible, given the gathering controversy. not only had the president not contacted virtually all families in the military -- of military personnel killed this year, the white house did not happen up to date list of those who had been killed. post" --s "washington more about the dispute and the war of words between the white house and a member of congress. it says the white house is aggressive effort to discredit a congresswoman from florida who criticize president trump over military condolence call ran into new problems friday when a video emerged showing that the chief of staff had made false claims about her.

the fifth day of the controversy that has raged as donald trump deflected criticism of his handling of the deaths of four service members in an ambush in niger. the debate has focused on attacks against congresswoman frederica wilson, a democrat, that have proved to be inaccurate but the white house has not backed away from. the latest episode with john kelly, a decorated retired marine general, the escalating political fight has over -- overshadowed the death of a soldier who gave his life for his country. we are talking to members of the military. james calling from georgia. good morning. caller: good morning. i have been listening to this controversy. travesty for the news media.

i say the news media, for the congressman to be in on the call. a good thing for her to be there. it should have been a conversation that should have been between the family and the president. i thought the president did an admirable job, i know it was a hard thing to do. i spent 36 years in the military. presidentall from the to say that i am sorry you lost or loved one, i think that was very admirable. i think that congressman, to put the conversation out was just trump hating. it did more to her the situation than it did good. host: let's look at what general kelly said to reporters on --rsday about what happened happens to fallen soldiers when they return home. >> most americans do not know

when -- what happens when we lose a soldier in combat. let me tell you what happens. inir bodies are wrapped up whatever passes as a shroud and they are put on a helicopter and said home. -- sent home. their first stop is when they are packed in ice. typically at the airhead. europe wheren to they are packed in ice again and flown to dover air force base. dover takes care of the remains. meticulously -- dresses them in the uniform with the metals they have earned. the emblems of their service. and then puts them on another airplane link to the casualty officer escort that takes him home. a very good movie to watch is "taking chance."

movie,his is done in a chance phelps was killed under my command next to me. it is worth seeing. while that is happening, a casualty officer typically goes to the home early in the morning and wait for the first lights to come home -- come on. he goes to the door and typically the mother, father, ise will answer, if the wife not there, it will happen at two different places. the casualty officers breaks the heart of a family member. they stay with that family until -- for a long time, even after the internment. who are these young men and women? the best 1% this country produces. most of you, as americans, do not know them.

many of you do not know anyone who knows one of them. they are the best this country produces and volunteer to protect our country's when there is nothing in our country anymore that seems to suggest that service to the nation is not only appropriate but required. that is all right. who writes letters to the families? typically, the company commander, battalion commander, division commander, secretary of defense, typically the service chief. and the president typically writes a letter. typically, the only phone calls a family receives is from their buddies. in my case, after my son was killed, his friends were calling us from afghanistan. telling us what a great guy he was. those are the only phone calls that really matter. host: that was chief of staff john telly -- john kelly, who

was also a marine general. we are talking about the ongoing controversy about the fallen soldier. bill is calling from yuri, pennsylvania. -- erie, pennsylvania. caller: two weeks ago there was a congressman from illinois. to refer toudacity general kelly by saying that general kelly was a disgrace to his uniform. this is before this incident with this other widow. thinking that this congresswoman was looking for a fight. when i heard her say that the ,resident seemed to be joking that she is listening in on the

conversation -- i guess they one in a car, she said television that she thought the president was joking around. i do not know if you heard the -- there is another tape the "washington post" put out yesterday in april where the president called another grieving widow and it was an interesting call. the kind of calling you would expect any commander-in-chief to send to these poor families. host: let me ask you a question. even though -- could it be the case that the president tried his best to comfort the johnson family but in their grief, to the, it could have landed on their ears wrong? caller: i believe you are correct. if the congresswoman had not been there, this would not have happened because she is a known

trump hater. the fact of the matter is, the democrats started using gold star family's act in the campaign when they had the muslim family. when donald trump was running for president, he did not say anything about their son. democratsng back -- brought out the family to go after donald trump. the family was on stage at the democratic national convention. it was all a setup. here is another set of where this congresswoman -- set up where this congresswoman was there for one reason. to eavesdrop on the call. and to make a big deal out of it. i have not heard anything from the poor wife, god bless her.

a fundid -- they set up me for the widow in florida which is already over $1 million. i have to remind people, there were three other soldiers killed with that -- with her husband. to do the right thing, she should divide the money between .he four families it is not right that one family gets over $1 million and we have not heard anything -- the news media get on the story and have not told us anything about the lives of the -- these old -- these other soldiers that died. host: four soldiers killed in the attack in niger. these are the four service members who lost their lives.

william calling in from houston, texas. good morning, william. caller: good morning, c-span and all listeners. anyone to defend the behavior tried to add before this incident should sit back and think and try to put themselves in the shoes of their young mother. it is not about the congressman. it is not even about the president. it is about leading by example. i immediately better and. -- i am a vietnam veteran. i lost family and wars. we could not vote but serve the country anyway. to defend the behavior -- all the president has to do is reach twitter, makegh

the call again. say, i apologize for any misunderstanding of what i was trying to do. it is that simple. this is what happens when you hire a bus driver to fly a jet plane. disaster. have a great day. host: more from "the washington with -- and in this view foxbusiness -- in an interview with fox business network, donald trump accused wilson of debasing kelly by saying the chief of staff defended the president at the president's insistence, in order to keep her job. donald trump thought that was sigrid -- signaling and said kelly is doing a great job and --d talking to members of the

military only and getting your views about this ongoing controversy. eastern or central time zone, you can call 202-748-8000. if you are in the mountain or pacific region, 202-748-8001. if you are a member of a gold .tar family, call 202-748-8002 david is calling from garland, texas. good morning. caller: good morning to you and .-span i am not a big trump fan but i will give credit where credit is due. isreach out to the families good but too bad he did not do it in the proper way. in regard to general kelly, he is a brother in arms and i cannot -- i would not chose to do what he did, to speak about my family's loss.

but he did. this situation is way out of proportion. people have died. talking about the actions of the president and the actions of a congresswoman, people who have no idea what the military is like an no idea what it is like to lose a person -- to lose a loved one in battle. it is really sad. it has been blown way out of proportion. heart, kelly, bless his he did the right thing by trying to smooth the situation but he was wrong about her comments -- his comments about the congresswoman and she was wrong about politicizing the call to the grieving mother. this has gone too far, people have died. for us, the media, the president, and all other naysayers to continue to publicize this is disgusting to

me. i have lost so many friends and battle. i think about them and i hurt. i visited the families and all i said was, god bless you. i was there to assist, if i could. if i couldn't, i gave my respect and i left the family to grieve. host: what branch of the military did you serve? caller: united states army, i dated iraq -- i invaded iraq to take out saddam hussein. prior speaking about least million she got, at -- every one of the family's at least $250,000. there is money paid to families when they lose their loved one. it is sad, people have died. n calling in from

wilmington, delaware. what are your thoughts? good morning, c-span and condolences to all of the families that lost loved ones. first of all, general kelly, when he was making his speech, he talked about how, when he lost his son, there was a friend -- a fellow officer that told him what to say -- how to deal with that. he was relating that to donald trump. that was soldier to soldier talking. when president trump was talking , you do not johnson talk to her like you were talking to a soldier. general kelly was wrong in trump to have president talk to her in that manner. second of all, it has been

proven time and time again through the video and newspaper investigations that donald trump lied when he says that he has thatcted all of the folks -- all of the troops that have passed in war. and that president obama did not. car, representative wilson was in the car, she was not eavesdropping. they put the call on speaker and representative wilson was asked to be there because she knew sergeant johnson from when he was a child. trump want to give donald and general kelly a pass on this when the facts say different. goes, you can have

your own opinion but you cannot have your own facts. you cannot make them up. people need to look at the fact that general kelly was wrong, president trump was wrong, and they both need to apologize. if president trump was really concerned about the widow johnson, he would call, apologize, and say -- "i am sorry for your loss, your country mourns with you. if there is something we can do, we will do it for you." that is all it will take. he did not have to make this controversy. it seems he loves to stir up controversy and continue to have things fester. that is not what a president does. host: a little more about the

congresswoman's response in today's "new york times." congresswoman wilson in an interview on friday called general kelly a liar and hinted that the altercation prompted by a call from president trump to the widow of a fallen black soldier was racially charged. the white house is full of white supremacists, she said, i feel sorry for him because he feels such a need to lie on me and i am not his enemy. , i. wilson said of mr. kelly cannot imagine why he would fabricate something like that, that is an absolutely insane, i am flabbergasted because it is easy to trace. whilst she stopped short -- while she stopped short of calling kelly with racial animus she saw -- says others in the white house are racially biased. charles calling in from florida on our line.

what branch of the military did you serve in or do you serve in? caller: air force, 1955-1971. host: what do you think about this controversy? caller: it is unreal. i have followed politics for 81 years and this is the worst i have ever seen any president that we have ever had. he does not know what the hell he is doing. he lies every time he opens his mouth. he has his facts wrong and you don't care. he doesn't -- and he don't care. he doesn't care about anything but himself and has no feelings for other people and what they go through. individual, i know what you have to go through. he has no sympathy. i believe that what he said and

what the congress lady said is 100% true. host: what would you like to see the president do or say now? caller: i think he should call the lady back. and apologize to her. so should kelly. call the congress lady and apologize to her because he had the facts 100% wrong. that seems to be a trend out of our white house these days, that nobody, i mean nobody in there wants to have the facts before they talk. i watch five or six hours of news every day on two or three different channels. it is all the same except for fox who has their slant. i would like to see our president do something that would help our country and stop looking out for himself.

all he is here for and in the white house for is for me, he wants recognition were everything he does and he always does it best and no one else has ever done what he has done, and that is so untrue. thank you for allowing me to be on the program. i hope the president will do something to make this a better place in which we live. thank you very much. host: in the washington post, and editorial that agrees with that sentiment. it says mr. kelly does the congresswoman an apology and says the white house chief of staff owes congresswoman frederica wilson, democrat from florida, an apology, the only conclusion that can be drawn after watching the video of her remarks at the dedication of an fbi building in florida in 2015.

it goes on to say of mr. kelly's account of the event, he got it all wrong and she did not say she got money for the building, she was generous and grateful in sharing credit legislation naming the building was fast tracked and spent most of the nine minute speech praising the fbi agents killed in a gunfight with drug dealers. they conclude by saying it is unfortunate the sacrifice of brave people such as these agents or the four soldiers killed in niger could get overwhelmed by the petty name-calling of politics, the point general kelly was trying to make thursday and he undercut with his misrepresentation of congresswoman wilson and he needs to set the record straight. elizabeth calling from holiday, florida. good morning. caller: how are you? host: i am good. what are your thoughts on this controversy? caller: i have three friends in the air force and my husband retired air force.

i worked for the fallen heroes that came in when i lived in delaware. that -- we all know our president's job is unbelievable, what he has to deal with day-to-day to make everything work in this country. and for all our soldiers overseas protecting our country, and giving us our freedom. this?n i say i knew many times that call about my husband or whatever, i do however feel i was impressed that the president calls families. do i believe he does not have a filter? yes, i do. but we all have to come together as a nation, because this is getting so outrageous.

if we do not seem come together as a nation, it will be nothing but madness. the united states. you know what i mean? it has to stop, we have to come together, we have to pull together. the congresswoman got her point across, it was wrong. it,ears could have heard when you are grieving, grieving spouse, mother, whatever. the way that came over is very unsympathetic. yes. time, i know he has an agenda and has to get things done. was sorry to say that it not sugarcoated more and it could have been. it is the way he does things and we cannot change that. he is our commander-in-chief. we need to stand behind him and

our country and come together as one, and stop all of this craziness in this country. host: what branch did you or do you serve in? caller: air force, my whole family was air force. host: we appreciate the service of you and your family. woodbridge, virginia, good morning, tom. caller: good morning. c-span is a national treasure, unlike most of the suppose it news shows on television, at least we get to hear the opinions of the american people as well as all of the stuff you do with regards to the senate and the congress. firsthandreporting -- reporting is all i listen to. i appreciate what you do. whole -- say that this this is ridiculous. general kelly was saying, is nothing sacred. here we have the president of the united states, who, is just

one person. he is a single person. yes, he is the president. he calls the family members of some of our fallen soldiers, instead, wene of, have another politically elected official criticizing him and calling him a racist because he called some family. i want everybody listening today to take a second and think what they would do if they had to call somebody and tell them that their children were dead. take a moment to think, what goes through your head when you have to be the person to call somebody and tell them their children are dead. just think about that for a minute. this is the president of the united states. he is dealing with some cuckoo clock in north korea and

ayatollahs in iran. and in europe and in france and in germany and in the united states. he took time out of a very busy personally, all, member of the family of a fallen soldier. and he gets called a racist. i am about as far from being a racist as you can be. i see people as people. i do not see them as black people, yellow people, brown people, it does not matter to me and to him neither. it was a soldier, he was calling the family of a soldier. host: what about the fact that the president -- caller: let me finish one thing. i am embarrassed that there is a --gresswoman from florida ideally from florida -- she

looks like a -- ideally from florida -- -- ideally you've from florida -- i believe from florida -- she looks like a cartoon character. we are not being torn apart in this country, we are being driven apart by these people. host: gary from fletcher, north carolina. good morning. caller: good morning. i want to explain something to everybody listening. we all have biases that are developed through our life experiences. bias againsta somebody or if we like somebody, when we see the same evidence, we will come to different conclusions. it is a natural, human tendency. if you like somebody, you will see house at -- how they say things in a positive way. if you hate somebody and they say something, you will rank on

them. back when the campaign was going on, and i do not agree with all the name-calling and childish fighting, but the news media put a man in the audience to ask questions who had a handicap. was duelingtrump with these guys, the man was having a hard time getting words out and donald trump thought he had this guy nervous and on the ropes and did not know he was handicapped. he thought the guy was nervous and having a hard time getting his words out. they are saying he was making fun of handicapped people. some people see it that way. you can read a newspaper article. the newspaper article may say amen helps dog bite victim.

victim, helps dog bite if you like the men, he probably took the guy to the hospital. if you do not like the guy, you could say the man helped the dog bite the victim like he held him down while the dog bit him. host: yes, maybe people can misunderstand or misinterpret someone's words but this controversy started when the president compared the way he contacted gold star family's with previous presidents. and and accurately said other presidents did not call these families. -- and accurately -- inaccurately said other presidents did not call these families, you think this is something the president started? caller: to be fair, he heard general kelly mention in conversation that he did not receive a call. mind, he trump's

kind of runs off with things, he only has to hear a little bit about the truth in order to live successfully with most people. donald trump is not good at speaking. used toboardroom guy boston people around. -- bossing people around. knowing he is not a politician, you have to figure, did we vote for a politician or not? if we did not, you will be ok with some of these things. if you do not like him, you will not be ok with these things. i see both sides. we have cognitive biases and we will always change the story in favor of what he says and defend him, or go at his neck. depending on whether you like him or not. host: ok. a look at what families of those killed in action get,

monetarily, from the military. a chart from "the washington post" that points out how much they receive and have received overtime. amount, six0, the months salary, usually amounted to less than $6,000. and inreased in 1991, 2004 it went up to $12,000 and after 2016, now a $100,000 retroactive payment back to 2001, that is the military death were 280 received by families -- gratuity received by families. james from new york. caller: very nervous, i have two years of stuff to give you, short time listener.

first-time -- i am a vietnam veteran, 71 years old. got five deferments for bad feet. if he saw my feet, these are bad feet. but i got drafted, i went. --ry day for four months never went on sick, could not run, this and that. he got five deferments for bad feet. trump has never succeeded. the first time i heard of him was when he repaired a skating rink in new york city. i repair these getting rink the city -- skating rink, the city promised, i am 25 miles outside. him, it wasple know

the first and only thing he ever did write. his father sent him away because he is hardheaded. -- let meme ask you ask you a question, you are saying the president does not have military experience. do you think that is shaping the way he is addressing this controversy of what he is saying to the press and how he speaks to these families? do you think it has to do with the fact he did not serve any military? caller: he did not serve in the military because the people with money did not have to go. they found other ways. them, theappy with people that ran. , will have been ashamed not to my father and uncles went into world war ii to feed their families. do you know what i'm saying? their 20'sny -- in

parents were0's -- sure cropping. -- sharecropping. when i went in the service, to vietnam, it was minorities mostly. i never saw so many black people until i got to vietnam. 1967, seven person in the 7%ntry, we were 14%, 15% -- in the country, we were 14%, 50% in vietnam. -- 15% in vietnam. donald trump's father was at a ku klux klan meeting in 1927. it was in a long island newspaper, look it up. host: how do you think this affects the way the president has addressed these soldiers? caller: ugly but no change of

course for him. i was knocked off my feet and is made at the general. i come out a sergeant. i made a sergeant in four months in vietnam. in, i could not run around the block. trump is carrying on from what he inherited at the dinner table. do you know what i am saying? i heard him say last week for the first time that his iq, he graduated from a school. don't cut me off. host: we have -- we have a lot of that's that -- vets that want to speak. caller: the day he got elected, i turned my flag, i am a flag streeti stopped on the

and make a u-turn because some of the foreign stores may put the flat out wrong. wrong -- flag out wrong. my flight is upside down because of -- flag is upside down because of trump. host: what brand did you serve in? caller: graincorp, 11.5 years. -- marine corps, 11.5 years. i heard one caller say that it was soldier talk marine to marine talk about -- he knew what he signed up for. supporter, butp i do not think he called and was joking. when he said he knew what he signed up for, someone in the

military would understand that because we know what we sign up for when we go into the military. i think the congresswoman took it out of context when he said that. he knew what he signed up for. i do not think he had any malice when he said it. ,here was another gentleman people are saying some good stuff. honestly, i do not think that he was joking. i think he was serious. it takes a lot for somebody to call and tell somebody that their loved one has passed. host: what about other comments the president made outside of this phone call, comparing gold star family's two other families

or lashing out at congresswoman wilson? what would you like to see the president say now and what do you think about the things he said after the call? said -- ie caller think you should call and apologize, and explain that i did not say it the way i should have said it. or the way i meant it. was telling the , whenent, coaching him you are talking to a grieving widow, it is different talking to another military person. about losing somebody. i think it got out of hand. congresswoman, and nobody understands, one caller said they are making it sound like the congresswoman was

listening around the corner to the call when she was actually in the car because she is a friend of the family. we need to understand that the congresswoman probably did not understand that when he said he knew what he signed up for. host: other news in the new york times about the attack in niger. it says account change in how it began, the pentagon trying to determine whether american forces involved in the deadly ambush in niger whether they diverted from their routine patrol to go to an unapproved mission. questions have come up because the american and niger soldiers have given conflicting accounts about whether they were simply ambushed or attacked after trying to chase islamic excursions -- insurgents. the episode has engulfed the white house crisis and prompted demands from members of congress

for answers about what the soldiers were doing before the attack on october 4. richard from oxnard, california. good morning. caller: good morning. how are you? host: what are your thoughts about this controversy? caller: this controversy makes me sick. i am a retired marine who spent 22 months in the anon. -- in vietnam. i talked to family members that i personally served with that died. are.es not matter who you when you have to talk to a family member, the words never come out the way you are her set, you practice it -- you are her set, how to -- you be hers rehearse it, the way you

practice, this is ridiculous. the voluntary -- the military is volunteer, not like in vietnam when you do not have a choice. back then, we did not get calls from the president, we are sorry your son has passed away. they got telegrams saying that your son has passed away. since when has it become a requirement for the president to call each and every one of these soldiers and marines that has a way in combat -- pass away in combat? this is tearing me apart. i do not understand what this is about. it shows how the -- dysfunctional our congresse is. host: tallahassee, florida, good morning. caller: good morning. i heard another caller referred

to the prism in which we view or hear information. i think that is true. the controversy la davidw the johnson's body was found two sounds different today's later rather than 48 hours. those of us who are african-american you the president a little different perhaps been people not african-american. the words that he used, they are generally hyperbolic.

he is usually smirking. , he knew what he was getting into. tone, he is distant and does not connect. when you hear him, he does not seem sincere, or he seems satiric. he never comes across as authentic. especially to my ears/ he. -- especially to my ears. he has a low vocabulary level. when you use general terms, it is almost impossible to pin down meaning. saysour president, when he , i give myself a 10 because i did a great job.

great is in the eye of the beholder. what is happening is, he does intellect.e that was a bad word to use, i am sorry. he does not have the skill, the verbal skill, i think, to express what he really feels because he cannot find the words. as well as we say eight barack obama, or it -- say a barack obama, or even a george w. bush, who was similarly handicapped. host: we are talking to members of the military about the ongoing controversy over the fallen soldier. eastern and central time zone, call 202-748-8000. mountain and pacific time zones, call 202-748-8001. if you are a member of a gold star family, 202-748-8002.

looking at other headlines today. the "new york times" say republicans are considering lowering the caps for 401(k)s. house republicans considering a plan to sharply reduce the amount of income american workers can save in tax-deferred retirement accounts as part of a broad effort to rewrite the tax code, according to lobbyists, consultants, and congressional democrats. unclear if republicans will include a cap on contributions in the tax bill they are expected to release in the coming weeks as such a move would prompt vocal backlash from anders who save heavily from assets management industries. the proposal would potentially cap the annual amount workers can set aside to as low as $2400. that would be down from the $18,000, under 50 years old and

$24,000 over 50 years old. fort lauderdale, good morning. caller: good morning. in my opinion, mrs. johnson should receive two phone calls, not just one. the first phone call should be from frederica wilson, for standing symbolically over the body of her death husband and creating a mudslinging, ugly circus. you talk about disrespect. what about that part of it? what about be part of the press giving into this and blowing this up into a racial issue? which is false. the democratic party and the press, there is no limit to how low they will stoop to criticize , discredit, and do whatever

they can against this president. you would have to think the whole purpose of president trump's call to this woman was to discredit, disrespect this fallen soldier. lowest,the worst, ugliest thing i have ever public inin the body this nation. and it is getting worse. people have the number of the press. they know what is going on. when they hear all of the stuff, they may be reveling that they have discredited this president, but in truth, people have their number and they are sick of it. sick of it. sick of it. may i ask you a question? host: go ahead, tom? host: have you appeared -- caller: have you appeared on msnbc? host: that is one of many.

caller: any pretense that you are not bias after being a regular on msnbc, that pretense is gone. host: i have also been on fox news, cnn. mary from ohio, a gold star family member. thank you for calling today. caller: when my son was killed in the navy in 1993, we heard from his commanding officer, from the department of defense, and from the department of the navy. we never heard from resident bill clinton at all. -- president bill clinton at all. general kelly was right, they toe at the break of dawn notify you and when you open the door and you have people from the navy standing there, you know they are not bringing you greetings of good cheer. the most terrific thing.

for this to be blown up into a political situation, i cannot understand it. whether you voted for president trump or not, this is absolutely terrible what is going on. why do the press kit giving any notoriety to it at all? this is a private time of mourning for the whole family and relatives of the family, and friends of the family. they all ache with you and no words can ever express the terrible loneliness and emptiness a person feels when they have gone through this. i do not understand why this is even a topic today. why don't you talk about bowe bergdahl or something like that? host: what you please tell our viewers a little something about

your son so we can know more about him? caller: he was an electrical engineer and he enlisted in the navy so that he could get their nuclear program. that is why he did it. knew -- he came home and told us. he was 26.5 years old when he was killed. when he told us he joined the navy, i never said a word. to but he was an adult and he knew what he was doing. we raised our kids to be able to think for themselves. if this is what he wanted, that was fine and he thoroughly enjoyed the navy. he was talking about making a career of it. unfortunately, it did not last that long. i cannot understand why this

frederica wilson what even come out and make any statements at all. this is a terrible time in those people's lives. and all of those lives. all the men taken out in the prime of their life. for this to be made a political football is shameful. just shameful. thank you and goodbye. host: thank you and thank you for the sacrifice you and your family made. diane calling from union city, georgia. good morning. caller: yes, i am heartbroken about that last caller. that is what i would like to call -- instead of talking about trump's comments, which are deplorable, i think, if he would of called that lady -- or bill clinton would have called that lady and said, your son knew

what he stood up for, she would understand why it is so hurtful. anyway, i think we need to focus more on why were those soldiers there and what happened. .nd telling the families why this fight and everything. it is more important about the soldiers and less about trump because he will say crazy stuff. all of his presidency, he started out in -- campaigning on crazy things. everybody who likes him will make excuses for what he says and whoever does not like him will say it is deplorable. that is a matter of opinion and everybody has one. important,opinion is

whether we like it or not. that is what this country supposedly stands for. thank you for c-span, i have been watching this show since the 1990's. i am so proud to be on it. i think you are very important. i watch it because you get straight facts, whether we like it or not. then you can form your own opinion. that is what the country is supposedly about, that is what is supposedly stands for. host: virgin you calling in from huntsville, alabama. -- virginia calling from huntsville, alabama. a member of a gold star family. caller: my brother-in-law was killed in vietnam and my grandfather was wounded in world war i, my father was in world war ii. i am from a military family.

i just want to send my soldierses to the killed in niger. i am concerned about the way americans, are understanding what is going on. fog has come over our nation that wrong is right and right is wrong. my understanding is that, when ,rs. johnson, the widow johnson when she received the call, congresswoman wilson was in the automobile with her. and it came over the speakerphone. like an auxiliary that everybody

could hear it. what we are not looking at, this johnson's, sergeant wife wanted congresswoman wilson to let the americans know what donald trump had said. she did not take it on her own. i just want to say that, this lady is hurting her family -- her family is hurting, she is expecting a baby and has other children. and go to thel extent to say that he knew what he signed up for, the only thing he had to say was i am sorry for his death. i want to say that for him to call her after he had been advised by the chief of staff not to, but did it anyway and did not do a right.

what -- i do not know his objections but he should've been more sympathetic. he did not have to bring up that he did not -- he knew what he signed up for. host: as somebody in a military family and who has lost someone, do you think that it should be the job of the president to phone these families? do you think they should leave that to other military personnel? caller: when we received the news, a military personnel came to the house. i think he wanted to be more personal about it. it should be left up to other personnel. he should not have called. to talk with her about it, because he did not know how to submit his condolences. for them to blame congresswoman out, that iseaking

her constituent. not only that, my understanding sergeanthe mentored sergeant md johnson, and she is like a family member, this woman, a former principal. and we saw what happened the other day when general kelly got up and literally lied for president trump. i don't understand why somebody won't stand up for what is right and stand up for the truth, regardless of who it hurts. that is my problem, who it hurts. somebody needs to stand up and tell the truth. saw when it was presented, and she did not hardly say anything about herself. , and itll about the fbi ,as all about what it had done

and there wasn't anything hardly said about her. i think this was blown out of proportion because we know we that is asident persistent person who cares for himself and he does not care about what attention he can get, and we can get ready for troops to come in galore now. i just hate to see the widows -- you see the lady over her husband, barely able to stand, and she is grieving, and for this to be going on, the only thing he has to do is to call and apologize for her insight "look, i got it wrong, i did not say it right, and i want to express my condolences to you. i am sorry for your loss," and just really be gentle with her. not know lady, i do your name, i cannot member your name, but i just want to say to world is-- how in the he going to apologize and ask

her to forgive him when you told us that he would not even ask god for forgiveness? host: virginia, i thank you and your family for the sacrifices you have made. caller: good morning. i have a 20-year veteran of the united states air force, and i was a flying squadron commander. one of my duties would have been , in the event that one of my troops was killed, whether in combat, whether in accident, to -- what i call -- make the walk, i, accompanied by a chaplain, would have to walk up a streak of a driveway, to a house, and inform the wife, the , but they are now a widow and that the children are events. -- are orphans.

that is not something that very many people on the face of the earth is charged with the responsibility of, and there is no right or wrong. criticismat the seems to be about. "it was done wrong." there is no right or wrong. it is something i as a commander, as an individual, would have had to do. and how i would have said it, there is no, there is no manual. it is something i would had to done. the things that general kelly said, i would fall back on my own experience. i joined the military. i knew what it was about. that is a fact. that is a truth. every single individual serving in the united states military today -- and remember, we do not have the draft anymore -- volunteered, stood up and said "i will join," and took an oath. i took that oath on the fourth of june, 1966. i knew what i was getting into.

i have many comrades of mine whose names are on the wall in vietnam. i served in the anon. i know people who have lost , and they were all pilots or navigators -- because that is what i did. bethis idea that there can second guessing, editorializing, that was horrible to try to bring all of this in all because of what one individual had to do. they had to make that walk. they had to find the words to express to that woman what had veryned, and that is a small thing, a very important thing, and it is up to only one individual. it is blown out of proportion. host: john, thank you for your service. thank you for the services of

all the people who called in today. -- the defense one executive editor, kevin baron, will join us, but what we know about niger. likely results it will have will be discussed with kate aronoff, a contributor to "dissent magazine." we will be right back. ♪ on booktv onnd c-span2, tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern, former vice president al gore looks at the effects of climate change around the world with his look "an inconvenient sequel: truth to power." mr. gore: when we in our civilization, not me but the technologists and engineers, are learning how to manage atoms and molecules with the same

precision that they used to manage bits of information, and it is changing things dramatically. co2 emissions have stabilized over the last four years, starting a downward trend. and we are going to win this. but the remaining question is whether we will win it in time to reduce the risk to an acceptable level that we will cross the point of no return. it is a dangerous race between hope and the catastrophic consequences that we are creating. >> then on sunday at 4:30 p.m. eastern, an author discussion on and free discussion speech with professor sam abrams of sarah lawrence college, more clone a columbia university, april kelly wagner of elizabethtown college, and the former president of the aclu. >> so i don't want to demonize and disparage these protests, the way this too often happens,

so what is about what is happening? they are passionately committed to social justice and racial justice, so i want to thank them for that, but i would love to have the opportunity to persuade them that freedom of speech, especially for the kind that we hate, is their most essential ally. >> for more of this weekend's booktv.org. to >> "washington journal" continues. joining us now is kevin baron, the executive editor of defense one. he is here to discuss the andtary presence in niger the death of four military service members earlier this month. thank you so much for joining us. what at this point do we know, and what do we not know about this mission, this ambush in niger that killed four green berets?

guest: we know why our guys are there. we do not know about the ambush, and we do not know a lot about what happened after the ambush. a lot of the questions are how to sergeant johnson get left behind. we knew he was there. this is how it went down after the attack. but we know the united states is in niger because it is doing security and training local forces, something the u.s. does in more than 100 countries around the world. usually without any fanfare, without any notice, and we don't pay much attention to it. now the pentagon is doing an investigation. they do not call it an investigation yet, because that but itomething formal, is a classification saying they are looking for findings, they will find out what happens. the militaryhing

does all the time. whether you think are fresh or anything else -- whether it is a car crash or anything else, they will into it. the "new yorkm times" story that points out there are differing accounts already. it said the troops were on a reconnaissance patrol, which means they almost certainly were out to collect information on al qaeda and islamic state groups operating in the area. the american military has a list of islamic state leaders they are targeting for that mission. the commander of the american team would have needed approval from at least one or two higher chad and subcommand in a task commander in germany where the united states africa command is based. talking little bit more about these types of reconnaissance missions and how many more are going on.

i know a lot of americans did not realize that we had troops in niger. aest: late yesterday, spreadsheetout a revealing there are about 800 troops in niger. they are working all across those borders to keep a boot on isis and al qaeda as they try to spread through the region. in niger, on the border as well, there have been a lot of these patrols and a lot of work with the local forces, french forces as well, to do just that, to find a camp, to do reconnaissance, like you said they are doing. is are thesemurky guys in combat, or are they just supposed to be trainers? ,ecause that makes a difference and the pentagon never likes to come clean really until they have to on a lot of these missions -- for good reason, for

sometimes, for operation security. outside canada, they do not know what they were doing on patrol. -- outside the pentagon, they did not know what they were doing on patrol. this was not so much training in the field, doing some benign target practice. the training can be anything from basic combat skills all the way to the most elite snipers. that this is us the part of the region where the u.s. is helping local forces actively look for terror cells and terror groups, again, something that goes on across all of africa. host: do we know how many troops are in niger? guest: 800 u.s. there was a giant exercise in niger just the spring, which was the u.s. special operations forces, special operations forces from several countries,

to train local special operations forces, the kind of counterterror missions they are doing a. host: we are with kevin baron, executive editor of defense one, and we are talking about the mission in niger. it is being reviewed by the defense department. republicans can call (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000. and independents, (202) 748-8002 . a special eye for active and retired members of the military. you can call (202) 748-8003. so what do we know about communications between the pentagon and congress about this?ions like some members of congress, including senator john mccain, says a new hardly anything about this. guest: right, and this is a

complaint john mccain has had with the paragon for months, but pretty much everything. the newit is administration. they do not have a press secretary until the summer. aff. do not have a lot of stuff of people who do a lot sifting of information and making communication with congress in this case. i think we learned that congress was briefed about the attack, that something had happened, very quickly after it did, but not fully briefed. mccain has complained he has not gotten the information he has wanted fast enough. -- he has always been always carry this flag, i think. this is where republicans and democrats fall by the wayside, a state between executive branch and the legislative branch.

the possibility to demand information from the pentagon, and that is what you saw yesterday, secretary mattis personally went to his office to have a meeting. you know, he does not have to do the. he did it. they both top student press, they made sure that happened. wanda is on the democratic line from california. you're on with kevin baron. caller: good morning. it is unfortunate what happened in benghazi. i really hate that. we cannot close our eyes and -- weof how all of this are making -- our president makes it political. i have heard people say "why is it so political?" head then my son,

he would have looked just like trayvon." taught people to apologize for things that they say. wanda, i want to make sure, because we are talking with kevin baron now, do you have a question about the situation in niger? caller: was it niger or benghazi? host: it was niger. i will move onto terri who is calling from florida on our republican line. terri.rning, caller: good morning. thank you, c-span. i have a question and a comment. who was the president of the united states? guest: this in niger happened two weeks ago, so that was under president trump. caller: when niger happened, the

president trump, october 4. guest: yes, ma'am. caller: and wasn't that president obama? host: what point are you trying to make? caller: what i'm saying is this event happened under president obama, correct? guest: no, ma'am, it happened a couple of weeks ago. host: it happened on october 4. caller: oh, i am sorry, i made a mistake. bye. host: let's move to bobby was calling on our independent line. caller: can you hear me? host:. yes. go ahead. caller: i want to make a comment. this was not a controversy so much as a media creation.

they are trying to drive a wedge between the black guy that got whites.very other three if the media would stop talking about it, that will go away. i really cannot understand what you have to have all of these coverages every day about niger, and most reasons -- i am talking about the controversial congressman who said if the media will quit inflaming it, it'll go away. host: i want to give kevin a chance to respond to that, if you want to. go ahead. guest: i will agree on a couple of things. some of the press real issues coming out of your, like race -- reel issues coming out of here, like race, are not issues. i am part of the media, and we will cover everything, especially in the nationals are depressed, it is a little different than the political press or white house press corps or even congress.

we cover the military, we cover american troops on the uber said -- who wereway, sent into harm's way, like these troops were, even on reconnaissance missions. we talked to families, and we take it very personally and professionally as our responsibility to find out when something like this goes wrong what happened. , the controversial words of the president, that this young man, or all of them, knew what they were signing up for, of course, we hear that all the time, we heard that from special operations forces in from the troops and the families themselves, but they are all supposed to come back. so when they don't, it is our responsibility to ask for every possible detail and to hold the commanders responsible to find out was it an intelligence failure or was it not. what could have been done differently?and then to find out what will change, when new policies will come into play. senator graham came out to say

he wants to change the law. those are major changes because of this one incident. when it comes to the congresswoman, that does become a white house, a politics story. the congresswoman, was in on this call, that is pretty unique. it does not happen. this president is a really unique president, and he has really made hay out of her being there, and it has really spiraled. secretary,ss secretary sanders, said yesterday, who blamed the media, when the president keeps to tweet about it. host: speaking of that amount we have a tweet from the present from this morning "i hope the fake news media keeps talking about congresswoman wilson in that she, as a representative, is killing the democratic party." guest: well! host: that if this morning on

the very point you were making. guest: i want to respond. what is the context on the? offhand, at 5:00 in the morning -- host: it is 8:00. at 8:00, he is tweeting about this. he is not tweeting about the mission, he is not tweeting about the fallen, he is not tweeting about terrorism or american security, he is not tweeting about civilian relations with the military, which are at an all-time low, i imagine. we are really aware of a. stoking the fires, calling the congresswoman a name, and tweaking the democrats, and we have to cover that. host: back to this mission was part of the authorization for use of military force, post 9/11, will this reignited the ,ebate over the authorization

will congress step up again and push for new organizations? guest: yes, and it has come and that is what i mentioned, senator graham, lindsey graham and the hall yesterday speaking for a long time with reporters, talking about the authorization of use of military force in iraq but also rules of engagement. that was the congressman's, friendly, rubberstamp to approve the issue in iraq, and it was used to ask and it pretty much everywhere. there is a debate over whether or not you can expand it countries.to other more than just isis for al qaeda. so some members of congress are new members, but frankly, members of congress do not want to build on it. they do not want anybody to say to them -- you were against the

war before you were for it or you were for it before you were against it. that is just politics. beyond that, rules of engagement is the important thing to look for. that has not changed under president trump. what he has changed his authority to make decisions. field commanders in the does not have to call the white house. the level of authority has been pushed out to the field, and the military is grateful for that, and we are hearing good things about that. but i do not think they are as justified as they are arguing. host: how would a change in the rules of engagement change what happens?talk a little bit more about that . guest: for example, who can shoot first? this is something that was a complaint in afghanistan. in recent years, before last the orders of afghanistan

were to be more defensive than office o offensive. as the taliban and started to come back, administrators asked the administration for flexibility, and they were given it. you guys have made a lot of good aadway on a lot of the emirs, lot of the has of a dozen terrorist organizations, including isis, and because president obama last spring of said let's change the language. more have more equipment, isr's, intelligence, drums, to have more authority. the criticism is, wait a minute, you will be less careful, the military does not care, you will start shooting civilians more often. i know, and those of us who have been covering the military for a nows that it takes a lot of lawyers who want to combat mission. it could change. host: we have a call from

oklahoma on our democratic line. good morning. caller: good morning. fallenks to all of the brothers in arms and of course the ones in the past who have given the sacrifice. we have the freedom to speak. in a way, i want to thank the one woman who called in because she showed the ignorance and the non-information that the civilian world -- or that the american people, most of them -- really have. in order to understand our prisons in niger, it always has happened, it is called the silent war, the silent presence, just like it was in laos before the vietnam war. and we call the special forces that are there -- we have dropped the ball in africa anyways. the chinese are already building airstrips and airbases, and the

russians are present. but the civilian world does not have no freaking idea. i am a widow of a vietnam widow. of --d of convocations complications of agent orange. all of the civilians should really keep their mouth shut because they don't have no idea what they are talking about. thank you and you all have a good day. guest: well, that is a great call. i think it is a good example of what this whole issue is illuminating. divide between what the civilian world knows their military is doing. on their orders, their elected officials, everyday. the woman is right -- this goes back to the special forces in laos -- that is what their mission was. the local forces doing the fighting for america or for themselves so that americans

don't have to. she is right. the first couple of callers not knowing where this was, confusing it with benghazi, trying to go right for the political wing from left and right and not really understanding the issues and needing to. in some instances, it is a good thing. ash carter would say i want you to rest easy and not worry about these things because we have got you. the criticism of that is it is less than 1% of the given time in the country that is involved. i have heard a medal of honor winner say "america is not at war, the american military is at ." the united states, writ large, can go about their business, for better or for worse. a tweeted question for lori that says "what is the role of private contractors in the niger conflict?"

guest: we will find out more. private contractors work and thee the military cia everywhere. they are welcome and they are needed and they are professional. they do basically the same thing. sometimes they do more. they do more sensitive missions that the u.s. government does not want american troops doing -- for political reasons, for legal reasons. they are often combat veterans themselves, whether former military or former intelligence. my hope is that we get a little more understanding, as well, c's -- private military contractors -- do. we often say "mercenary" with a negative connotation. privatenot state and military contractors. these are red-blooded americans under same legal authority and have the same service that they

continue with their careers to do this work, and they do it out of uniform with great risk, and a lot of them are actually getting wounded and killed, and you will never hear about them the way you hear about these guys in uniform. you are on our republican line. caller: good morning. you know why we were there? as i understand it, we were hunting that says there. is it possibly that we had assets there, in niger and places like that, because some corporation has an oil well or a diamond mine or a goldmine or something, and we are protecting or providing security for that corporation? secondly, i find it highly thatc, almost incredible,

thousands of death notifications occur, and in this political case, the woman that trump advertised -- he said he was going to call these people -- isn't it a coincidence that a democratic congressman would be sitting right there at the family's side when they call came in? is this a coincidence or a set up? thank you. guest: i will take the second part. my understanding of all the reporting i have seen is it is really unique that the congresswoman is friends with the family, has known the soldier for years, so yeah, she was at the family's side. she was just there, you know. i will let america decide who was at fault, whether the congresswoman should not said anything about the call -- it was a private moment -- or the president should h not have to that is unelected official. as far as american as far as american forces, i have never heard of american forces sent for that.

these forces were there for training and counterterrorism missions. these things go on side-by-side all over africa. as far as protecting assets, the american military does that on a large scale. think of the navy in the south china sea with china building up the islands and asserting control over the freedom of movement. our navy at risk all the time is there specifically to keep those lanes open, to keep the trillions of dollars flowing our country depends on. that is economic security. that is one of the missions of the u.s. military. there is the islamic state, al qaeda. it is an alphabet soup. boko haram, al-shabab.

there are at least five or six different groups i can think of off the top of my head americans are interacting with. when i say interacting with, killing, in north africa little by little. sometimes these things happen. this happens more than the public knows about. often more than we know about because they are not advertised. ourood example is where forces have been fighting and only when a strike kills civilians does it reach the headlines. it is so pervasive. caller who served in the military. caller: how are you doing today? fantastic subject we are talking about today. i want to thank c-span for allowing america to voice its

opinion. you are looking at the 60,000 foot level. i have three points to make. one is at the 30,000 foot level. one is at the 15,000 foot level. please let me get down to the deck level. i will go real quick. please speak about the withdrawal of chad forces after the travel ban placed on chad because of passport papers they could not get approved by the trump administration. that is 30,000 foot level. at the 15,000 foot level, we have troops there to train, assist, and advise. if we are in a precarious situation which we call a gray area and in that gray soldiers are in a gray area

between training or fighting. we would rather train and fight. we don't go there to fight. we go there to train. we just ask for the assistance of our government to have our back if something goes deep south. now we get down to the deck plate level. right now, there is a unit were 12 people went out. 50% were killed or casualties. half of that unit is gone. there are people in their barracks now hurt. host: i will let kevin address this, particularly the issue about the chadian troops. guest: i've seen some reporting but do not know enough to offer an opinion. i think it is a conspiracy theory to try to make connections on this. i should not say conspiracy theory, i think links are precarious. as the gentleman said, 12 guys went out on patrol.

there had been something like 20 patrols like this recently with no problem. goes,ary mattis himself there is a reason we did not send the peace corps out to make this a better place. we sent green berets. they are armed. i will say the u.s. army is changing their entire makeup for these missions. the chief of the army, i talked to him couple of weeks ago, said they are creating new security forces and brigades which is between conventional forces and special forces. everyone expects this to command -- expand and continue. this is the global age of terror. there is one that will be stood up this winter with six total to come. the troops are almost ranger level of physical, mental, language skills, everything you

need so the military has more options more robust and better trained for these missions. line from is on the clarion, pennsylvania, on our independent line. caller: thank you for allowing me to voice my opinion for c-span. my opinion seems to be derived from the fact we all watch different media outlets to get our news and we base our opinions on almost dictatorial evidence suggested to us by these media outlets. i wonder if you could compare benghazi to niger in what has happened, and is that the reality? is that the kind of message we are getting depending on which media outlet we observe or listen to? on, i started to hear this is just like benghazi

or this is trump's benghazi. that makes my skin crawl a little bit. these are completely different cases. the only similarities are that americans got ambushed and killed. people are trying to place blame like we do everything. republicans and democrats would lame each other for the sunrise if they could. benghazi was where ambassador went into a dangerous situation he did not need to and there are questions about who is responsible for it. it is a political hot potato that went to hearings and bringing secretary clinton in. as a pentagon reporter, this was a surprise for us because we were covering warfare and the .ealities of it with members of congress, it became almost a circus. it became a real investigation and had to be covered by media outlets.

i know the conservative press have their own angles. they're wondering about the chad pullout on the liberal side. somehow it has to be trump's fault this happened. on the other side commit has to be someone else's fault this happened. i would keep your eyes and secretary mattis, a guy who has lost troops under his command. and friendly, general kelly. we all know the story. i know general kelly from my days at the pentagon. we traveled with him. these guys will get to the truth. there will be a lot of political hay. everyone will argue about it. keep your eyes on the facts. these four guys came home in body bags. it will keep happening again. at least the country is more this militaryact is at war all over the place.

the united states is trying to fight terrorism and help countries do it. and this is the cost of it. kevin baron, founding executive editor at "defense one," thank you so much. thank you again. next, we will be taking more of your calls. democrats, republicans, independents. we will be right back. on c-span this mine, we will show you a recent senate hearing on prescription drug costs. that is followed by the justice department announcing indictments against two chinese nationals accused of conspiracy to traffic fentanyl and other synthetic opioids on the internet. later, a look at opioid

addiction and its impact in the u.s. >> they were not very happy to see me because i just finished bombing the place. it got pretty rough. , hurt my kneeder again. look, i don't blame them. we were in a war. i did not like it. , when you same time are in a war and you are captured by the enemy, you can't expect to have tea. after his capture, arizona senator john mccain talks about the impact of the vietnam war on his life and the country. sunday at 6:00 and 10:00 eastern on c-span three. -- cspan3. >> c-span, where history unfolds

daily. in 1979, c-span was created as a public service by america's cable television companies and is brought to you today by your cable or satellite provider. >> "washington journal" continues. host: we are taking your calls this hour. republicans, democrats, independents. we have a tweet from the president this morning. host: the president is referring to the files related november, 1963, assassination of president john f. kennedy.

they were scheduled to be made public in less than a week by the national archives. there was some question about whether some of the files would be kept secret for security reasons. mark is calling in from washington state on our independent line. good morning. caller: good morning. i wanted to comment on the cost of our defense budget. it is about half of all of our taxes that go for this eternal war. after osamae went bin laden and he is now dead. but the patriot act remains. c.i.a. and f.b.i. because of obama now share all information. they read our emails and no our bank accounts. troops inining many countries. i find it appalling we allow for

the police state, eternal war, and torture. why were we in niger in the first place? thank you. host: nate is calling in from west hollywood, california. good morning. caller: thanks so much for taking my call. i completely agree with mark from washington state. there is no reason for us to be there. it is a waste of taxpayer dollars. there is no objection by most people in congress for the $700 billion defense bill passed. there needs to be more conversation about that. it is appalling we are killing people around the world. host: ok. and a look at some of the headlines from around the country as we await the calls this hour. "the atlanta journal-constitution" has a story about taxes focusing on

the tax cuts republican lawmakers are working on passing now. in the "austin american-statesman," the top headline is about attorney texas' sessions backing saying hecities ban delivered a message not to expect grants if they disobey the law. news" "dallas morning about the bump stock ban haveg some lawmakers called for bans but is not looked unfavorably by some folks there. some of the headlines today as we take your calls. bie is calling in from

wilmington, north carolina. caller: at first this was about the [indiscernible] and now it is not, correct? host: you are on the air. what did you want to talk about? caller: at first, it was the four soldiers who had fallen. one was about a black man. and the other three you don't discuss. and now you are on -- j.f.k. it is about this is not what i was discussing. host: go ahead. we are taking your calls now. you can talk about whatever you want. caller: four soldiers, one black, and now it is a race war. the three other soldiers we don't even talk about. what happened to the other three ?oldiers i am not a racist person.

you are showing the four soldiers. why is it only about one person? the other three fell, and you don't hear from their families. this florida woman is making it about one person only. why is it only one? what about the other three who died, too? host: ok. mel is calling in from our democratic line in georgia. caller: i'm calling about what happened with the four soldiers. the president and secretary have been saying i am sorry about and stop talking about how he knew what he was getting into and all that stuff.

the family don't want to hear about that. they want to hear the president say that he is sorry about the loss and we are going to do everything we can to help the family. that is all we need to hear. the congressng lady. the congress lady did what she is supposed to do, brought it out in the open. why don't we apologize about what we did and said? that is all i have got to say. thank you so much. host: some other headlines today. it says the sprint towards the enormous tax bill has reached the starting line.

evan is calling in from silver spring, maryland, on our independent line. sorry about that. caller: no problem. i wanted to talk about how this was handled, the johnson case. i have worked for elected officials in congress. i have worked for a governor. i say all that to say that if trump had people around him to guide him through handling these situations, it would not happen.

i will give you a perfect example. when i worked for a senator, i never let him go to the phone for the floor without a script. this is totally avoidable. host: let me ask you this. general kelly, the president's chief of staff, says the president did talk to him about how to address the soldiers and he told them some of -- told him some of the things he would say and that the president did use some of that phrasing in this phone call. that he had counseled him on this. having yeah, but i think a conversation about that is different from having a script that you do not have to read word for word but it is prepared. you can add live -- ad lib. you don't have to do it off the cuff.

these things would help have the conversations. there are repeated incidents where he says things and it blows up. that tells me he does not have the right people around him to guide him. host: ok. a programming note. on the c-spans in portland, maine, as we continue to explore america's stories. at noon today, all the nonfiction literary offerings will air together starting at noon on c-span2. is a preview of one of the theents as we take you to home of henry wadsworth longfellow. >> henry wadsworth longfellow was an american poet in the 19th century.

when he was alive and writing, he was probably the most famous english language writer in the world, if not the most famous person in the world. at the back of the hall and to the left was the family's summer dining room. the side of the house faces north. it is a little cooler back here for eating in the summertime. today, this is often referred to as the rainy day room because it is believed in this room and at that very desk henry wrote his poem, "the rainy day." "behind the clouds, is the son still shining? into each life, a little rain must fall." that phrase has made its way into our everyday lexicon. it originated with that point. host: again, that will air beginning at noon today on book

tv on c-span2. you can catch all of our offerings at c-span.org/citi estour. republican line, also from silver spring, maryland. lot of people have been asking why we are in niger. uranium. the french get a lot of their uranium from niger. a lot of troops from libya after the fall of qaddafi. in the civil war, there were 2500 french troops and the rebels were destroying the historical documents in the library. we are coordinating with the and other places in africa. we definitely do not love the rebel groups getting hold of the uranium source -- we definitely do not want the rebel gro

ups getting hold of the uranium source. i will hang up. host: thank you. veteran, am a 22-year retired air force. this controversy with the congresswoman, the president, and general kelly i feel was initiated primarily by the president wanting to be the best of everything, denigrating other presidents about calls and all of this. the congresswoman just happened to be in the limo when the call came in. it was placed on the speakerphone, and she heard that. she brought it out into the press. but the issue i have is with general kelly. man. felt was an honorable

to stand there in front of the nation and call this congresswoman an empty barrel and noisemaker and how he was so shocked, and then there is video evidence that everything he stated was incorrect. now, as another military person, it hurts me to say that he lied but it is obvious he did. the sad thing about it, he interwove his personal tragedy to defend the president. it is extremely sad. i hear people calling and denigrating the congresswoman and saying she is a clown and all of these things. when is this going to stop? the trump supporters are always

defending him when he is the problem, is the common denominator. host: what would you like to see him do now? caller: actually, i think he said he never apologizes, in this case, he should along with general kelly. host: ok. other programming news. c-span spoke yesterday with hillary clinton about her book. the whole interview will air tomorrow at 2:50 p.m. -- 2:15 p.m.and also at 11:05 or is a portion -- here is a portion. what would you say to those critics? >> i would say this the same baloney they have been peddling for years. there has been no credible evidence by anyone. it has been to bunt repeatedly -- debunked repeatedly and

continues to be debunked. trump and his allies, including fox news, are really experts at distraction and diversion. the closer the investigation about real russian ties between trump associates and real russians, as we heard jeff sessions finally admit to in his testimony the other day, the more they want to throw mud on the wall and on their favorite target, me and president obama. we are the ones they want to put into the crosshairs. i am not surprised. that i think the real story is how nervous they are about these continuing investigations. host: the full interview will and 11:05ow at 2:15 on c-span. brick is calling in on our independent line. good morning. caller: i am surprised people

were unaware we have troops from one end of africa to the other, from the atlantic to the arabian sea. to the military, that is a well-known fact. number two, general kelly is only a man. he puts his pants on one leg at a time. the idea he should not be criticized because he is a four star general who lost his son is ridiculous. when we get in a position where we cannot -- and he is now in a political position -- we get in a position where we should not criticize our leaders because of their war record, we are approaching a dictatorship. to me, until citizens united is overturned and we get true public ownership of the airwaves and get corporations which really run the government, 1% in

the corporations, we only have the trappings of democracy now. and maybe that is our fault because the american people were not paying attention. we do not live in a true democracy. until we face the major problems causing all of these smaller problems, there is not going to be a thing to change. the so-called tax plan of republicans is just a giveaway to the rich. anybody with a head on her shoulders knows that. the republican party is the party of the rich anyone percent -- and the 1%ers. host: the white house issued a statement saying everyone can be questioned after the white house press secretary initially said it was inappropriate to question a four-star general. sarah huckabee sanders conceded

whilene can be questioned defending her earlier remarks. host: floyd is calling from west virginia. caller: i love our troops. they do a good job everywhere they are at. we do appreciate our troops and everything. hillary mentioned something

about baloney. i think her baloney is getting ready to be fried up. you talk about the security thing and russia, what they have done to give our uranium away. c-span were called jon hamm it and let him give the evidence of what is going on. there is a lot going on about russia. if you would like a c.d. about call this number and you can find out what russia will be doing to us in the future. it is pretty bad. but god takes care. thank you for taking my call. host: sammy is calling in from george on the independent line. good morning. what is on your mind? caller: i am a retired veteran, military veteran. my heart is that this country

will pull together as one because you have so many other countries looking at us. because of race. i am american. i am not native american, spanish-american, whatever. i am american. the stuff with race needs to stop. that is all i have to say. the president needs to concentrate on this nation and leave the nfl alone. this is what he signed up for. that is all i have to say. host: ok. some other headlines today. sayswashington post" changes to a.c.a. enrollment could lock millions into unwanted plans.

host: ann is on the line from new jersey on our democratic line. sayer: i just wanted to this whole situation is so sad. a soldier, a green beret, is being buried today.

and we have people calling and saying the congresswoman looks like a clown. trumpo they think donald look like? i'm going to tell you this. they know kelly did not tell the truth. they know he did this with donald trump, like everybody. , spicer, whatever his name was, everyone who works for him has to protect him. he is a buffoon. i live in new jersey. we knew this about donald trump. people in new jersey, connecticut, new york. we knew he was a con artist. we could not believe the people in the south would go for it, and they voted for him. and they love this man.

he picked on the races in part because he figured that is what racism partike -- because he figured that is what they would like. naturally, they will call in and defend him because it makes them look foolish they voted for such a nut. this man should not be running -- he could not keep my dog. this man is a fool. his wife raised his children, he did not. so when he says how i raised my , he has said on plenty interviews that i do not do the father thing like that with the kids. he said it to howard stern a million times. so he raised them when they got old enough to work for his company so he could show them how to con people, and they have become the same. i'm going to tell you. all i want is this country to come together and stop the foolishness.

host: ok. from a c-spant producer about the current state of the house now. host: trevor is calling in from seattle. what is on your mind today? caller: i just wanted to make a caller earlierhe mentioning something i hear quite often. it is always infuriating. it is about the media. it is saying you cannot believe anything in the media, the mainstream media, because the information they provide is sort of given to you and you are just

supposed to believe it, right? you are supposed to take it as fact. people don't understand you can be sued for saying the wrong thing and many of these major news organizations have before, so they have lawyers, reporters, theything looking into stories before they are published and looking into these sources before they are published. you can go through life denying everything we can go through life accepting everything. either way deprived you thinking -- it away deprives you of thinking. i want to say that. i wanted to tell my fellow republicans to branch out. start talking to other people. host: ok. we have a call from george on our independent line. caller: good morning. a great opportunity to be heard by a lot of people.

witht to speak on the fact the colin kaepernick fiasco why there is a sleight-of-hand thing going on. no one is paying any attention to his reason for beginning his protest. and now, it is all about disrespecting the flag and so forth. i have a quick question. when people are sitting at home drinking beer and watching the the national and anthem comes on, i guarantee 90% of them do not stand and put their hand on their heart in their house. and yet, they want to say this man is disrespecting the flag and not paying attention to the reason for it, injustice against african american men and minorities and police brutality and so forth. to speak on that, why no one is paying attention to the reason for it instead of taking the sleight-of-hand and

going after the idea about disrespecting the flag. we have got soldiers who have come back to america after fighting and losing arms and limbs living on the street and not having health care, the v.a. running out of money and so forth. i would think that would be more disrespectful of the flag, if you want to talk about that, then whether someone stands or not. that is my point. host: we have a call from louisiana on the democratic line. caller: good morning. i am a 20-year veteran of the u.s. army in vietnam, wounded in 1966. i was one of the first recruited into the all volunteer force. as a young man if i were killed and the president comes up to my wife and says that is what he signed up for?

i was in the military my whole career. i cannot believe this. i am sick of trump. thank you for letting me comment. host: coming up, we have a discussion about rural electric cooperatives and the unlikely political impact they can have. kate aronoff will join us. later, the education secretary is rolling back obama era guidance on how colleges and universities handle sexual assault. we will talk to stuart taylor about what that means. we will be right back. >> sunday night. >> over 90% of sexual harassment cases end up and settlement. what does that mean? that means the woman never works in her chosen career again and

can never talk about it. she is gagged. how else to resolve sexual-harassment suits? we put in arbitration clauses in employment contracts which make it a secret proceeding. so again, nobody ever files out about it if you file a complaint. you can never talk about it, ever. nobody ever knows what happened to you. in most cases, you are also terminated in the company and the man is still left to work in the same position in which he was harassing you. this is the way our society has decided to resolve sexual-harassment cases, to women somen -- to gag we can fool everyone we have come so far in 2017. >> gretchen carlson talks about sexual harassment in her new book. by theinterviewed "washington post" columnist. tv.h sunday night on book

moment -- eyes for a close your eyes for a moment and stretch. seese your eyes -- i you. [laughter] >> i want you to stretch your imagination. [sound of a crash] >> open your eyes. that is how fast it happens. new warning. no warning. director oftive paralyzed veterans of america talks about his own paralysis and work to help paralyzed vets. >> i am trying to tell them this is the problem. this is what i see from a patient perspective, policy perspective, advocate perspective. you have to empathize.

that is what will make ceva the ideal provider for veterans who have gone to combat -- this is what will make the b.a. the the idealhe v.a. provider for veterans who have gone to combat. >> "washington journal" continues. is kate aronoff tom "dissent" magazine discuss her piece on rural electrical cooperative spirit thank you for joining us today. for viewers who do not know, what is "dissent" magazine? guest: it is a magazine founded in the 1950's to sort of have a conversation about the left and

socialism that was not aligned with the soviet union. since that time, it has been a forum for debate and ideas on the left that tries to talk andt democracy, socialism, the way those things can work in a way they have not always in existing socialism but we think it's possible. on thehat major focus rural electric cooperatives? guest: sure. i write a decent amount about energy and environment issues. i came across rural electric cooperatives couple of years ago. particularsue in coming up to the summer as people are reckoning with the of results of the election, looking at rural electric cooperatives

as this issue between a lot of moral communities. after the election, there was a lot of handwringing about how the country could electronic. who voted for donald trump? there are discussions to be had, but it ignores the fact a lot of people did not vote for a number of reasons. with of them had to do access to voter rights, voter suppression, but also because a lot of people feel the major parties have abandoned them. arel electric cooperatives the not quite political institution that has political as a formons of utility that serves 85% of persistent poverty counties. i started looking at rural electric cooperatives for the role in our energy system but

also the role they play in rural communities and what sort of opportunities they present for connecting rural communities and making inroads for renewable energy and moves toward lower carbon energy systems. but also in sort of a political question of how people are getting their power and what institutions are connecting these communities. host: explain for viewers who are not familiar with these rec's exactly what they are and how they work. guest: sure. cooperatives were formed by the rural program started in 1935. like a lot of new deal programs, it was a result of massive pressure from below two more people in the government at the time.

the idea was to extend electric power to the 90% of rural communities that did not have power in the wake of the great depression. as much as it was about that, it was also about serving as an engine for economic development for some places hardest hit by the depression. as they were providing power, they were also providing things like job creation, agricultural assistance. it is not just power. but that was a big part of it. those things are linked together in terms of running more efficient farms. the other thing i will say briefly about rural electric corporatist is like a lot of it wasew deal programs, top down in the sense that was a lot of money coming from the federal government to make this possible but it was created with an eye towards self-sufficiency.

people could come together and decide as a community they want to do bring electric power to their towns, small cities. and they would do it. .he federal government it would be able to sustain itself with affordable rates from members. to kate are talking magazinerom "dissent" about these rec's and the political impact of them. republicans, democrats, independents. i want to read an excerpt from your piece about these rec's.

host: talk a little bit about the political history behind these cooperatives. guest: sure. part of how they came to be was from grassroots experimentation by those living in rural communities not being served by the private sector. that was a main driver behind this program and a lot of other new deal programs were to fill gaps private electricity companies were not meeting. they did that in the immediate aftermath. private electric companies started erecting lines.

that is the grassroots basis. since that time, since the depression, a lot of them have become subject to old boys networks. and in many cases, while nominally and legally democratic are actually very undemocratic in the way they are operated. this is most prominent in the black belt of america where you will have a predominantly black service area in place where there may be a predominantly black government, that because governing board is appointed often with lifelong terms where they can collect benefits, you will have predominantly white boards. i think there are only three members of color of the national

electric cooperation. in has historically been a regressive force. there is tremendous possibility in terms of the role they can play in transitioning to taking back public power and serving as a model for how that can happen. there are political fights to be waged on how they are run now. host: we have a call on our independents line. caller: good morning. i was calling about the broadband. arederstand some rec's against broadband. i was wondering if charter or other cable systems were fighting to keep broadband from being offered.

i know in this area, we could use broadband to cut down on the cost of watching quality tv programming like c-span. thank you. guest: that is a great question. that has been one of the more initing programs developing rec's based on owner/member activism to bring broadband where it does not come, for the same reason rec's or started in the first place, to fill a gap in the private market. i am not sure about the lobbying effort. but that has been a huge fight. rec's are naturally well-positioned to be a huge provider of broadband. i know in new york, some of the rural electric cooperatives are interested in integrating broadband into their service. it goes back to the original mission which is really positive

of what rural electric cooperatives can do, which is to be this broad-based engine of economic development. 21st century is a huge part of that. host: i want to talk a little bit about how this relates to renewable energy. write that initiatives around renewables stand at odds with several of these rec's. host: talk about the interplay between these rec's and the

effort to shift toward renewable energy. inst: as you mentioned the excerpt, rec's are inordinately dependent on coal. part of it is structural. rec's our long-term contracts with coal provider janitors -- generators. role of the coal industry and some of the communities. that makes it an uphill battle to get renewables there. and in some places where rural electric cooperatives serve, there is a historical role where coal has provided jobs and being the force of gravity in some places. in terms of the folks i talked to for the story, i talked to

someone who works for a group in kentucky. kentucky has an economy that has historically been very dependent on coal. he told me they are starting this program with a number of rural electric cooperatives throughout the state to offer energy efficiency programs. how he explained it to me was that these energy efficiency programs were not renewable energy out, but things like insulation, bringing down electricity costs, he said that was a gateway drug to renewable energy. i think that is an approach that can be really effective in some other places thinking about how to get to renewable energy not of some moral or ethical commitment to solar panels but because it is cheaper and can bring down costs and be more reliable and be a better source

of power and a real job creator for some places. there is a lot of work to be done in the transition away from fossil fuels. i think particularly in places where the coal industry has fled and left people out of work, looking at the transition can be good. host: jeremy is calling from chestertown, maryland, on our democratic line. you're on with kate aronoff. caller: i wanted to thank you the perspective to support socialism i never thought about before. a little opinionated -- [no audio] people who lean toward socialist ideas tend to be more conservative. [no audio] i just thought -- [no audio] host: jeremy, are you there? kate, talk about that sentiment a little bit.

guest: yeah, yeah. it is funny, the history of the rural electric cooperatives and a lot of the new deal programs were accused of creeping socialism and had to fight off accusations of being communist-run, being these agents of the soviet government, or something like that. it is a common form of socialism do find in many places we not normally associate in the united states with socialism. one thing i found researching this piece was a play that have been written through another new deal program that takes place in this rural community. people are arguing for electrification as an egalitarian, socialist demand. they do not say it outright, but that is something definitely in

the water. you don't need to be a socialist to support some of the efforts happening in rural electric cooperative's or renewable energy as a place where socialist ideas can play out. rural electric cooperatives are an exciting place because they are owned and operated by their members and have this membership structure which is democratic and socialist, which are two things i think are good to look at any 21st century. host: charles is on the independents line from millville, new jersey. go ahead. caller: i would like to know thesehese co-ops -- if co-ops are doing anything about providing solar panels to people . when solar energy started out, these panels were offered for sale.

you could buy them yourself. the companies would pay a percentage of whatever you brought in your house and did not use, they would pay you back rates for that and that would provide you with pretty much free electric. so overpriced are a normal person cannot afford to buy them. you can buy the panels and have them put on your roof. you go through a co-op, i am thinking, and you pretty much just lease the panels. what are you doing for people cannot afford to buy the panels? guest: great. it is great to hear from someone from the little. i am from millville. thank you for bringing up the issue of affordability. that is part of what makes rural electric cooperatives so exciting. it can be very hard to access solar power for a lot of people, specifically if the laws in your state or not in a position to do it.

there have been huge fights waged by private utilities to make it much harder for people to afford solar panels and for solar panels to come online. rural electric cooperatives, there have been programs with financing to allow you to pay it out of your electric bill at no cost as you mentioned. there's also increasing interest in utility scale solar power. even if you cannot put a solar panel on your house, electric utility can create a solar farm and you can get power from that. that is one of the biggest issues we have to grapple with if we are looking at a future power less by coal, oil, and natural gas is how we make renewable energy something the everyday person can tap into.

rural electric cooperatives right now are controlled by coal industry interests but are exciting examples of how those programs can proliferate. have a line for republicans, democrats, and independents. piece, you write that the recent upsurge in member activism is on a collision course with the trump administration's proposed cuts. to/21% from the e department. what should we expect from this? guest: i have not had a chance to look at the most recent senate blueprint that past and what it means for electric co-ops.

when i was speaking to folks about the piece, that was the elephant in the room. right now, there are fairly generous funds set up to help rural electric cooperatives make energy efficiency adjustments. in kentucky, they have these agriculture funds. that is under threat. like a lot of things the trump administration what comes to fruition remains to be sane, and if this is something under the radar, it gets a pass and there are people that can push to make it even greater, but however we look at this, the transition is going to take a lot of money and there's no way around that. that expenditure is going to be less expensive than dealing with pastor catastrophic climate

change, which is what we are up against in the coming decades. it remains to be seen what we are up against. bill is calling in on our democratic line from jefferson township. good morning. good morning. were therters that -- wrote an article for a magazine called dissent or 's, is that-op correct? what is theis government involvement in the electric co-ops, and how prevalent is this?

ow many people belong to this? it sounds like a good idea that control electricity. there should be competition, but there's no competition. host: i'm going to let kate address that. guest: 42 million people are owners of electric cooperatives throughout the country. government involvement, there is not a ton of government involvement because, again, these co-ops were created to be sort of self sufficient, which is their great issues inhas created

terms of how they are regulated, but, yes, they are public and also very democratic, at least nominally and legally. i think it is a sort of sweet spot in terms of how a utility can operate. ok, kate aronoff, thank you so much for joining us today. up, education secretary betsy devos is rolling back obama era guidance on how colleges and universities should handle sexual assault. we will talk to stuart taylor about what that means, but first, an interview with the counterterrorism center's nick rasmussen, who talked about areas where isis is gaining strength around the world. >> southeast asia because that's where i see the trajectory a

little bit upward -- in an upward direction. it concerns me particularly you who have of followed the terrorism problem since 9/11 know that in a 2004, 2005, 2000 -- 2006 period, we were dealing with a southeast asia threat picture it out werengs in indonesia that quite devastating. there is certainly a capacity or extremism to manifest itself and terrorism, and if isis taps into that successfully, it could create a regional threat of the sort we have not seen in the last several years, so that's one of the reasons i highlighted it. would point to north africa. again, a wide range of terrorist and extremist groups even predating isis operated in .ibya, algeria, morocco

the arrival of isis on the scene only added another player to what was already a difficult terrorism situation there. i would characterize it as largely a localized problem, a significant threat to our interest in the region, rather than something truly transnational, but you don't have to look too closely at a map to see that north africa edges up pretty close to the southern tier of europe, so concerns we have had about foreign fighters migrating into europe and potentially posing a threat, those are not just iraq or syrian-based foreign fighters we worry about. we worry about fighters from north africa transitioning onto the continent. joining us now is stuart taylor, the co-author of "campus rapefrenzy -- "campus

wayzy," talking about the the burden of proof is changing under obama administration policies. what made you write this book? guest: my co-author and i had written a book on the duke fraud, a fairly a rapeinstance of accusation, and at the time, we thought the culture was very prone to presume guilt. they attacked their own students as guilty even in the face of mounting evidence of innocence. more and more reckless

accusations of rape have been launched in many directions. is a big, rate -- rape problem on campuses, but it is not the huge epidemic and the situation in which every accused person is guilty that you may because of the way the media has been treating it for years, so we thought a correction was in order. host: do we have the data to know exactly how prevalent campus rape is? : we have a lot of good data and a lot of phony data. the phony data have gotten a lot more publicity. on surveys, they would tell you about 1% of college women are sexually assaulted in some way -- i'm , and, 1% are raped

somewhat more are sexually assaulted in lesser ways while at college. that is a lot. that's way too many, but president obama, vice president biden, and many others are saying one in five are sexually while on campus. the only basis for that are surveys that are clearly rigged to get to a certain result. we're joined by stuart taylor, author of campus rape on due the attack universitieserican . i want to talk a little bit about how the rules surrounding some of these investigations may be changing.

the new york times wrote last month saying the obama administration's approach policing campus sexual assault has failed to many students. education secretary betsy devos said last month that her administration would rewrite those rules in an effort to protect victims of sexual assault and the accused. what do we know now about how these rules will change under the trump administration as compared to the obama administration? guest: there was a succession of rules with the obama administration starting in april 2011, and there are a lot of them.

you cannot capture them all in a sentence, but the burden of proof that they decreed colleges must adopt, so-called preponderance of the evidence, 50 1%means, like, probability -- they ordered colleges to find students guilty .f it was almost a tossup they also put severe limits on cross examination of accusers, court said theme greatest engine of truth ever devised by the law, and many others. they ordered training of people to adjudicate these campuses -- these cases on campuses. betsy devos comes along and says these and other rules collectively were denying due process and fairness to the accused students, and she has set out to change them. she has not changed them very dramatically yet. she revoked the obama rules, but a college under the obama rules

using this standard of evidence still has that option. you can use that, but you can also use a stricter standard such as clear and convincing evidence. in common rulemaking, they develop proposed rules and put .hem out for public comment at that point, then they make dramatic changes, but not much is actually changing on the .ampuses on the ground so far i want you to take a look at with the president of the feminist majority foundation said after secretary devos announced these rules. >> in addition to what was happening with the administration that was taken more seriously, there is a

movement on campus, a woman's movement, which is not taking it anymore. students themselves have organized. you cannot go on like this. you cannot have this many blatant cases, and either way, schools have started to take it more seriously. they appointed many more -- for example, i think harvard appointed 52 coordinators. they started to set up better processes. they took the guidance seriously, and that can only help, but we have a serious problem, and for them to say the real problem was this make-believe, that there was no rights to the accused is simply not true. to wipe it away and say we are not going to deal with this, they cannot change the law. this is the law of the land, but also, it's a problem. do they not want the schools to be safe?

host: what is your reaction? guest: of course they want the schools to be safe. any reader -- that the devos has made that clear -- betsy devos has a that clear. any reader of her speeches will draw that conclusion. ofhave to make sure fairness. there are a lot of false accusations. has been terribly attached for basically arguing for fairness. she has been called a rape apologist. jill biden compared her supporters to the nazis marching on charlottesville -- joe biden has compared her supporters to the nazis marching on charlottesville.

she is the first prominent official, republican or democrat , anywhere who has taken up the cause of falsely accused students. tim is on the line from brighton, massachusetts, a college student. good morning. i havellege student, been involved in several cases as a witness, talked to administrators, and i can say absolutely that this obama era order really set up a kangaroo/witchhunt system, and it was really disheartening to be in a system where essentially, one accuser and you are out of school, and i really support what that's the devos -- betsy devos is doing. thank you. do, too. i free sheet your comments.

there are a lot of cases where you really do not know for sure what happened and where tradition in our justice system is presumption of innocence. in this system, not only has that been overridden by the obama rules and by a lot of colleges, they have actually found young men guilty and railroaded them out of college in the face of strong evidence of innocence in some cases. everybody is texting all the time at colleges, it seems, and often, we have lots of cases where if you look at the text messages the complainants sent over time, it's quite clear they consented to what happened. maybe a year later or a month later, they decided they were raped, even though the evidence shows they were not. it is enough cases you have to worry about innocent young men being railroaded out of college

as this young man just described. host: thomas calling from frankfort, kentucky. caller: i want to say i think it is a shame what is going on, all these rapes, and we need to look at what is causing this. the way women dress, even on newscasts and tv shows, a camera will shine up under the desk to show these women whose dresses are, you know, way up. i guess women who go out in just that way are pretty much asking for it if they are around some sick creditor, and i think we need to stop all of this, especially on television. thank you very much. guest: i respectfully disagree that the way women dress is a big part of the problem or that it should be held against

accusers that they were dressed a certain way. i do not believe that, and i do not believe people who are trying to reform this believe that. the captain of the yale best loved him, a woman who had had sex with him a couple of times already, got into bed naked with him and then by her account decided that she did not really want to go forward, but she did not say no. he did not leave. he did not push. he had sex and later, the guy gets kicked out on the idea that she did not want to, and therefore, it was a rape. of thing, notrt wearing a certain kind of dress, is the sort of thing where injustices happen. guest: x --host: explain to and who you happens think should be handling these

cases. should this be something for school administrators to address or law enforcement? guest: the typical cases there is an investigator for the school. someone reports there was an assault. woman who was the supposedly the victim, sometimes a roommate, sometimes someone else. they have an investigation that often is cursory. and they have a hearing, but the exactlyn is not told what the charge is. he's not allowed to have a lawyer represent him at the hearing. he's not allowed to cross examine the accuser. the people dragging him, typically three campus sex to be hugelytend biased against males in the first place. often there will be so-called training for these adjudicators that says almost all men

accused of sexual assault are guilty, so do not worry too much about the evidence. i think this is a very bad system. sometimes it's worse. sometimes they appoint a single bureaucrat to be prosecutor, judge, jury, so the system is , partly because of what the obama administration did to a large extent, and they were demanding more and more young men be found innocent -- i'm sorry, be found guilty, but there is a culture of presuming male guilt. it is very pervasive at campuses today. what is the interplay with law enforcement? yes, typically, the woman could go to school law enforcement or law enforcement not by the school. the trend in what the obama administration was pushing for, not so much and formal

announcements but in informal was do not go to the police, they will not be nice to you. you'll be cross examined. they will suggest you are a liar. come to the cap's kangaroo court, as the young man suggested, and we will be nice to you -- come to the campus kangaroo court. both can happen, but usually, there are a lot of cases where the women go to the campus and police and that police and prosecutors decide that there was not any basis for a criminal charge. the college decided there was a basis to kick the young guy out anyway. host: we are talking with stuart taylor, the author of "the : the attackfrenzy

on due process at american universities." sylvia is calling in from ocean shores, washington. hi, sylvia. caller: thanks for taking my call. been listening to all this stuff. it's a good show this morning. i don't know what the answer is, beeny experience, there's , rates, all the difficult physical, sexual, .motional, through my life i was always taught to keep your mouth shut, and if you did say anything as a woman, it was your fault somehow. ron my family, from friends, from officials. you just learned you don't tell .nybody anything

it has been very slow for me to learn you've got to say something. if nothing else, try to help that this isnow happening a lot. i mean, some children are being raped in their cribs. some of the things we see every day on tv, the murders and the rapes and killings and torture of women and then that general comes on and does his little .ield on all women are sacred i'd like to know what book he has been reading. host: for a lot of women coming forward it might be difficult and underreported. there is a great deal of truth in what sylvia is saying. i do not deny it. a great number of women are attacked and do not come forward because they can be savaged.

look at the harvey weinstein story who was a king of hollywood while being, by the way, a prominent donor to the democratic campaign, and he did the kind of thing sylvia is complaining about to lots of women. you do not have to deny that to think that a man is accused -- you know, that there are also false accusations. enough so that you have to worry about young men, plural, being punished when they did nothing wrong. a lot of lives are ruined by rapes. a lot of lives are ruined by false accusations. hit the rightt to balance, and i think it's utterly clear the obama and campuses have not hit the right balance. say it's aant to cheap shot you are going after obama. it's disgusting.

rape is the crime and someone needs to deal. you keep mentioning obama. the problem the colleges have is when there is a crime committed, they let campus police handled the case. they have no business handling the case. they need to call police immediately and confront the crime right away. meantime, we provide our kids a lot of alcohol at college campuses. when you bring alcohol to college campuses and there's no accountability, this is the bad thing we deal. young girls cannot speak up because if they do, the college will react and they will get rid of them. i do agree with you this a lot of young men who did not do a blamed sometimes. it does happen, but the reality is colleges have to have some rules about this alcohol they are providing the children.

then things cannot be changed. as young men, you want to have you don't know what you're doing when you are drunk. ok, i want to give stuart taylor a chance to respond. caller: i do --guest: i do not come to this as an opponent of obama. i voted for obama twice. my co-author gave money to the campaign. we're certainly not proponents of president trump. the reason i use the name obama a lot of times was he was driving the federal policy pushing the guilt presumption in these cases for several years. obamaised then senator and our previous book about the duplicate -- duke lacrosse rape fraud. turned i think for political reasons to join the

extremists of the anti-rape movement, not just calling for opposer measures to rape, but endorsing phony statistics and allowing -- or ordering, i would say -- the office for civil rights of the aderholt education department, which was headed by political president obama. i was a past college educator. good morning, mr. taylor. i've been looking for a current legal definition of sexual assault. i wonder if you in your research could provide that to the audience. guest: sure. rape is kind of a subset of sexual assault.

the general rule in the criminal law is any unwanted action of a sexual nation of a woman by a man or manned by a woman, for that matter, is sexual assault and a crime. sometimes it is something like a pat on the rear end, which people may not think is so serious. that is a crime. the more klaxon -- classical sexual assault would be either a rape or something close to a rape, a physical attack that stops just short of sexual intercourse. are taking a far broader definition of sexual assault. often they call it sexual misconduct, but when you are branded as a sexual misconduct percent at college, everybody thinks you are a sex criminal. part of the problem in college definitions. for example, any sex involving people who are drunk is deemed

to be rape under the rules of a lot of colleges. rape would be passed out drunk, but a little bit drunk is enough for colleges to kick the guy out. colleges have a far broader definition than criminal law does. jr is calling from south carolina. caller: i just want to say i think it is despicable what is doing. stuart i think he is taking the hyper partisanship running rampant right now and using it to his advantage with this book. many,ve mentioned obama many times and the democrats. i am a lifelong republican. i'm also a veteran. there are women out there, young are being sexually

assaulted, and i really feel that you are belittling them. guest: i want to give stuart a chance to address that. said one wordnot that belittles victims of sexual assault. i do not know who you have been listening to, but you have not been listening to me. one reason i mentioned president obama a lot is is the subject of this discussion, that betsy devos is trying to change the policy the obama administration put in place. the policy of the obama administration is the central subject of this debate right now. i think there would be a big problem of wealth accusations rapesbig problem of real even if someone else had been president, but president obama played a real role in putting in place the assumption of guilt under was a lot of colleges are

operating. host: what is your question for stuart taylor? question so much my comment. i am a victim of rape and when i reported it to police, i was treated like the a criminal. they investigated me. my rapist got away with what he did. he was never arrested, and he is still out there. i mean, that's it. that's my comment. i'm very sympathetic to that. certainly over the years police have not always been sympathetic to rape victims. that was probably the norm when i was covering police districts in baltimore as a young reporter in the early 1970's. they tended not to take rape victims seriously. i think that has changed a lot over the years. i think the police are much better and the prosecutors about treating rape victims as they should, but there are still some

problems. you can find our guest at stuarttaylor.com. thanks for joining us. tomorrow, we will be joined by former speaker newt gingrich, who will be here to discuss president trump and his relation with -- relationship with congress and a university of texas professor discussing the impact of protests by nfl players during the national arthur guest will discuss his path from prison to law. 7:00 a.m. back at eastern. until then, have a good saturday. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2017] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute,

which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> on c-span this morning, we will show you a recent senate health hearing on prescription drug costs. that's followed by the justice department announcing indictments against two chinese nationals accused of conspiracy to traffic sentinel and other synthetic opioids on the internet, and later, a look at opioid addiction and it impact here in the u.s. >> this weekend on american , a look aton c-span3 controversial union and confederate generals during a live discussion with others and petersburg,n virginia, starting today at 9:00 a.m. and nine a at 9:15 eastern. tonight, the january 1968 weekly series abc scope examines