fall to the ground. at the time he was a 74-year-old man. i did what any decent human would do, when you see a 74-year-old man on the verge of falling to the ground, to grab him by the arm, to make sure he did not fall, but i was also thinking in a large -- i was fearful of being separated from them and being left behind. when i took his arm, that is when it turned on me. the somebody pulled my hair and somebody body slam me. a allison stinger discusses following ay lecture from charles murphy. e on here this orning with our conversation harassment.l the national women's law center in washington, d.c. is here, you for tin, thank

being here. what role does the national women's law center play in this sexual tion about harassment uest: we are a women's rights advocacy organization, engage with policy makers at the to ral level and the states strengthen legal protection against harassment. the courts, e in arguing for robust thatpretations of the laws protect women from harassment nd we recently launched legal network for gender equity to help connect women who are harassment and other forms of discrimination with attorneys willing to take cases on. host: is that your recommendation? if a woman has been harassed, immediately get a lawyer? guest: well, i think that it is often really help to feel have a sense of what your rights are, mean you immediately go to court and file a complaint. there often are other strategies

that make sense as a first step, informaltalking to your support networks, friend, what es, strategize responses might be productive here. bringing complaint internally to hr, often is the appropriate first step. but if you have the ability to to an attorney to get attorney to get an understanding not,ether this is legal or and what would happen if you did file a legal complaint, i think that kind of information is always helpful. what legal obligation does human resources at a company have, when somebody goes to them with a complaint. if human resources doesn't investigate a sexual harassment complaint, they are opening themselves to legal liability.

human resources has to determine there was sexual harassment, and address it if it occurred. the law expects the employer to respond and to investigate, and to discipline a harasser appropriately, if there was in fact a restaurant. the: who goes, then, to equal employment commission, the eeoc? is wheree eeoc you go if you want to pursue a legal complaint. you can do that instead of going to your employer, but under the law, if you haven't availed yourself of some complaint system the employer has come and you don't have a good reason for, that can be a barrier for your success in court. the usual course of events is that someone would complain to hr, go through whatever system, and then, if there wasn't an

appropriate resolution, bring a charge to the equal employment opportunity commission. it's a simple process, there is a form you fill out saying come of this happened to me, this is my employer, this is what happened. and then the eeoc has the responsibility to investigate it. now, the eeoc is overburdened so it can said for some time but do havecertain time you the right to go to court. that is how the legal process is a setup. obviously, an individual situations and there may be reasons why that doesn't seem like a good option, if you are concerned about the possibility of retaliation, about what your employer might do in reaction to any of these steps. the loss is an employer country can't retaliate few for complaining about harassment, but that doesn't mean, it doesn't happen. that is one of the things women need to weigh in the face of sexual harassment.

we had collars this morning who said they believe the eeoc doesn't have any teeth, and they have not followed up on , the people have personal experience with. emily: it is certainly the case that the eeoc doesn't have the capacity to do a deep investigation of every charge before it. that is the truth. i think the eeoc should be much better resourced, but where we are now, sometimes the eeoc does have the ability to dig deep in a prompt way commodity or charge. and sometimes, there is a not a lot -- sometimes there is not a lot of immediate response. that is why, after a few months of past, you have the right to go to federal court with your charge. obviously, it is not easy to bring a court case. you need an attorney, that comedic the company itself. all of those are real barriers that women face when they are

trying to assert their rights, and man, too, when they are victims harassment. 16% of complaints are filed by men. is there a different standard when men complained of harassment by another man, or woman, in the workplace? host: the legal standards are the same. court has upheld same-sex harassment. the court would ask whether the harassment was severe or pervasive, and whether someone had what they would call , if thele job in fact employer knew about the harassment and failed to take steps to stop it. you: what outcomes have seen from these cases, monetary, imprisonment?

--lic in the punishment be how big can the punishment be? emily: recently in the news we dollaren very high settlements in high-profile cases. case, recently reported. that is striking, because it is unusual. is much lowers and under federal law they are to, from about 100,000 $300,000. but not not nothing, the millions and millions of dollars we are seeing in some of these settlements. imprisonment is not something available through the civil system, where you are bringing harassment or discrimination. if there is assault, that is a possibility, but certainly not the most typical course of

events that we have seen. to invite our viewers to call me with your questions and comments. our conversation continues on "washington journal" about harassment in the workplace. what have you heard, what have you seen. jersey,gwood, new hello, steve. i worked in public schools for more than 30 years and i have seen numerous, what i would call, reverse-gender discrimination. real elevatedis a fear, especially among men in education, for falsely being accused of something. and it is almost like it is out there were the buses don't run. i don't think there is enough of a penalty for making false accusations. doesn't is an area that seem to really get the media attention that it deserves.

experience when i was very young in my career. nothing came of it but it was just bizarre that somebody would just make up something out of nowhere, just because you happen to be a male. let's talk about that. false accusations. of the things i hear when i hear that story is how gender stereotypes can harm both men and women. there are stereotypes about men who work in education, who work with children, that they are somehow suspect. and that is an example of how, when we have these ideas about people not being qualified or appropriate for a particular job. doesn'tomething that just harm women. victims men, to. host: is there any ramification for false accusations? emily: if you make an allegation i'm not sure if that was the kind of accusation

he was talking about, harassment from a coworker, and your employer find that it is truly frivolous, that there really is clear evidence that that didn't happen, i suppose that if there were some pattern, that your employer could have a disciplinary response. but it would be a very difficult situation because the law does protect people, who bring complaints of harassment. so, the only way an employer would be able to punish somebody for bringing forth the complaint is if there was really strong evidence that the complaint was in bad faith. the guardian had a story, 75% of people who experienced sexual harassment, don't reported to read how does the law protect them? host: the law says cup -- the law says, just like

it is illegal for an employer to harass you, it is an illegal act for the employer to retaliate against you if you complain to the eeoc, or a court. so, actually, it is the case that people are often more successful bringing their retaliation cases against their employer, then bringing the underlying harassment case. because sometimes, harassment often happens in private, there are people that have different versions of events that can be difficult to figure out what happened. isle, witretaliion it often a lot clearer. toerson says, this happened me, and the employer response by terminating her. that is an easier case to prove. from cape canaveral, linda, in florida. go ahead. caller: apparently there is

bit of harassment going on in small dental practices. is the lawm hearing is for offices that are 15 employees or larger, so what does someone do when you were in a small business, or a medical practice, and this is occurring? emily: that is a great question. you are right, federal law in businessesyees that have at least 15 employees. state law varies. some states prohibit harassment, discrimination, for all employers no matter how large or small. follow theates federal law, and some states do something in between. so, unfortunately there is not just one answer, depending on the state in the city. some cities have municipal laws that cover smaller employers. you may have legal protections available. but you are right, in some states, in small businesses

there aren't clear protections against harassment and discrimination, and that is a real problem. so, one of the things we argue for at the national women's law center is that laws against discrimination and harassment should be expanded, to cover smaller businesses. because, you are right, it can really leave you without a lot of meaningful recourse. host: virginia in riverside, california. have a comment regarding our highest level in government. we have the same thing going on with mr. trump, and i think that should really, really be looked into. we are talking about low level, although they are wrong, if proven guilty, all of these awscasters, a director and producer in hollywood, it seems like a double standard here when we have someone in the white house who should be prosecuted. he admitted to this and i am curious as to why no one is bringing this up. this has gone on and the man is

on tape. i also have one other comment to make. i, myself, was manhandled and molested by my husband's boss. let my husband know immediately, as we have had him to dinner, and i wasn't saying goodbye to his wife and leaning into the car on and this is when this happened. and my husband, on the other red, was unable to say anything to his's for fear he would lose his job. so that is another circumstance that was very, very upsetting to me and it affected me greatly. examples,ing you two here. we have a president in office that should be prosecuted, as well, with his own words. host: emily martin? what thedo think that president said, and the allegations against him, are incredibly troubling, and do lineup with a pattern. other stories that we have been

hearing about harvey weinstein and bill o'reilly and others, about powerful people, powerful men who engage in this sort of harassment, over and over and over. may beink that it really that one of the reasons we are hearing these stories now, that so many women are coming forward, that some many people are coming forward and saying, i have seen this in the workplace, this happens. tomay be in part, a response the "access hollywood" story, and the election of the president, and the feeling that it is not ok just to let this go. iat, if i experienced this, have some responsibility and obligation to speak up, even if the person who harassed me was a powerful person. may be a response we are

seeing come in the culture right now. one point 6 million tweets, in response to an actress's call, alyssa milano, oo stories. are we at a tipping point? i think this is a powerful moment, women sharing their stories and speaking to each other. that makes a difference. you know, one of the reasons continue, isnt can because harassers make their victims feel isolated and vulnerable. willeel like, no one believe you because this happened without witnesses. you feel like there is really nothing you can do. that if you complain, it will only make things worse because the person harassing you is so powerful in the company. and people often feel like maybe, this was their fault, that they put themselves in this situation, and if only they had

done something differently maybe they could have prevented this from happening or did and the power of women sharing stories, where you see the same sort of thing happening over and over, people'srts to shift perception. that wasn't my fault. this happens over and over and over again, it is not about us doing the wrong ink. it is the harasser doing the wrong thing, and i am not alone and vulnerable, here. rick on twitter says weinstein may have been packed, has beengun laws, it rewarding culprits like bill o'reilly for years. how does the military deal with these situations? host: that's a great question. the military has had a lot of difficulty with appropriately responding to sexual harassment and sexual assault. and one of the good things that we at the national women's law

center have been pushing for is, andmprove reporting responses in the military, so it doesn't get through the chain of command. so you are not complaining to the person who has oversight the harassment in the first place. so, that there is a separate to sayhat you can go to this happened to me, that is separate from your chain of command. and i think that would really be an important performing military justice. host: cindy in st. joseph, minnesota. cindy. caller: i am older now and much wiser. but starting out in my early 20's, working and getting married and such, i had a few experiences. who was one of our transplant adjusters from another state and he kind of creeped me out. i was pretty naive and innocent,

and i would complain but nothing would happen. and then i told my senior adjuster, who was a black gal, and she immediately went to hr the man was removed. promoteda man who was from the male department all the way to an assistant insurance adjuster, and it was about to take my bars when i took three months off to get married. when iback to my job and got pregnant that first year they let me go and wouldn't let me come back. and it was like, really? i knew this was a big company and it was probably just related to the maternity leave. well then, 10 years later, after two more children, a cap happening again. so, the last time i decided to call the eeoc. and we went to the denver courthouse and we lost. that,ealed it, we lost

and then the woman that represented me, she was a black as i wasshe told me going up the elevator, you need to hire a private lawyer and sue them and you will get whatever you want. and i said, did you just missed something, we appealed it and lost it? and then she leaned up to me until me you are white, you are married, and your husband has a good job. i can't help you. isn't really representing women like they claim. bottom line, if you are going to work, no matter what your is kind of a job title that they give you. don't really compensate you like men. almost 40king about, years later, and it is still going on from what i hear. host: emily martin, your reaction. emily: i do think that cindy's

story points out how different sorts of harassment are connected, whether it's pregnancy discrimination or wage discrimination or sexual harassment. all of those sorts of discrimination are expressions of the idea that women really aren't valuable in the workplace, that you don't belong here, and that you are a second-class citizen, here. i think it is probably not a coincidence that at the company she worked for, she kept running into these problems at all these different levels. host: dunkirk, maryland. hi, dan. sometimes they settle out of court and then the person that was the harasser makes the person sinus secrecy thing so -- >> nondisclosure. nondisclosure.

i think that should be illegal because if the guys off the hook, and you could say they couldn't talk about this unless charges were brought against him again and the that person could be a witness. i don't believe in this secrecy stuff. host: nondisclosure agreements. some people argue that that is part of the problem, these women cannot talk about what happened. there are really two different kinds of nondisclosure agreements bring one is definitely something we need to address and the other is more complicated. , is the kindd where you walk in the door, as part of your employment contract, you sign something that says, i promise not to disclose anything that is disparaging of the company coming whether it is true or not, that i'm going to keep quiet about any disparaging information. and that sort of nondisclosure agreement, i think, is not ok.

in law, thatclear, you can't have that sort of provision without expressly saying, this doesn't apply to instances of harassment or discrimination. think thathe law, i kind of nondisclosure agreement isn't enforceable in many prevents, that it can't you from bringing a charge of discrimination or, talking to your coworkers to challenge discriminatory behavior. but obviously, people don't necessarily know that and it does have a really chilling effect. the more complicated kind of secrecy provision is the kind where, you are entering into some out-of-court settlement after some experience. the employer is compensating you in some way but a provision of the settlement's confidentiality. and i can also have a really negative impact, in that it does keep these things secret, it does allow the harasser to

potentially harass other people, other women in the workplace. but i think that is more difficult because, if you are experiencing harassment, the best, the best sort of resolution is a resolution that doesn't go to court. nobody was to go to court. it is expensive. it takes a lot of time. it is incredibly invasive. you are going to be cross the attorneys are a talk about how you were a bad employee, you don't want to do that. up withtter to come some resolution that doesn't require that, and the question is, whether it would be harder for victims of harassment to get some sort of restitution if it is unlawful for the employer to require confidentiality as a condition of the settlement agreement. i'm not sure what the answer is but it think it's a difficult question that we really need to wrestle with as we think about public policy in this area. host: denise in ingleside,

illinois. caller: yes, i want to talk a little bit about an experience i had just a year ago with an illinois state senator. already, and laws the state of illinois, on crime victims rights. and he offered to take up my third bill, as its sponsor. and he is a high-ranking democrat, so i was facing a lot of opposition and i needed somebody who could really go to bat for the bill. i was trying to get lawyers for crime victims to enforce the rights. and the experience that i had, i met him in may of 2015, and by april of 2016 i went into a crisis. and people need to realize the effect that this has, on those of us to experience this

abuse. i'll lost 20 pounds. i was losing my hair. and it was just hard to get out of bed and function, because my work, i worked with moms and dads whose children had been raped and murdered, and they are experiencing re-victimization by the system. knew how important this work was for me. i have been doing this work for year, out of pocket, because my doctor was raped at 11, which is why i do the work that i do. and we went to the system. -- and we went through the system. and after my bill finally died, which was his intent from the beginning, he was married, he told me i looked like a movie intoxicating, i'm intimidating. he would have meetings set up at the park, at the ice cream parlor, very, very disturbing to me. i met with my state attorney in april, when i had the crisis

because i couldn't take it him to take i asked over representation of the bill. and he said to me, denise, you are the only one who can advocate for this bill because of my knowledge and experience. and he told me, i will talk to the senator if you want. and i said no, if you do that, he will just kill my bill again. because he called in april because he thought that i had a boyfriend, which was mind blowing because this man is married, and the work is so important. so i had to fight for that bill, go through that torment, all the way until november 2016. bill finally died on its own, it never got brought to a vote, i just totally left and went to all the resources that i could to him accountable, i filed a complaint. because he was in high leadership, the democratic , this senatornt

also get a fundraiser for him and the only one who can do anything is the person he fund raised for. so, your voice is totally silenced. this issue was swept under the rug. he was never held accountable, but really, what i want people to understand is that when we go through this experience, it is devastating. marriedlike having a man telling me i am intoxicating, or how pretty i am, or this or that, when i am trying to do something to help people who are at their worst situation that you can imagine. so there has to be accountability, somehow, someway, to make them realize their behavior, they are unconscionable. host: emily martin. emily: there are a lot of great points there, one of which is, this is a real impact on victims. obviously, there are different

levels of harassment. but one of the reasons why it is really difficult to bring any sort of complaint of harassment, and why the majority of women first because harassment is often in an expression of power, just like it is here. for the not unusual harasser to be a very powerful person within the workplace. and that makes it very difficult to come forward and to be confident that there will be any meaningful response if you come forward. -- so, it is not a rational, but a lotirrational, of women think there is nothing to be gained by bringing a complaint. and one of the other things that i hear, in that story, is that the impact of harassment really goes beyond any particular moment, any particular interaction. it can really affect how and

individual who has experienced succeed at work in a way that is very disturbing. host: you can learn more about the national women's law center at their website. emily martin, we appreciate the conversation with you, this morning. >> members of the u.s. house approved an outline of their tax proposal and called on congress to work on changes to the tax code. the chair of the house ways and means committee says the