richard: that was happening more over the summer and into september. for the past few weeks they been letting the committees, the house ways and means committee and the senate finance committee, really do a lot of the detailed work to get the bill to where needs to be, in order to pass, to get through the committee and onto the floor. but we did have a situation where the president weighed in on changes to the 401(k) planned. and that is something that members are sensitive to and want to hear the president get involved. jumping in and declare red lines about what can't change of what has to change, it makes it a complex process and that dynamic between the president and his twitter account and republicans on the hill is something that bears watching as november rolls forward. debateots of tax .head

richard rubin, thanks for joining us. >> coming up in about 25 minutes on c-span, supreme court justice ruth bader ginsburg will talk about social justice. that is live at four clock p.m. eastern. before that we take a look at some of today's washington journal. host: joining us this morning from san francisco, jackson ca it a mentor for anti-violence strategies. all kindsentoring and of places, colleges and high schools, and branches of the military, because it's so much sexual harassment and relationship abuse is preventable. obviously, we have an approach that we have developed over many years that we think is really menctive in working with

and women, boys and girls, and all kinds of different settings, multiracial, multiethnic environments, urban areas, suburban areas, everywhere. host: what is your approach? >> we are one of the pioneers of what is called the bystander approach. and focusingviding on perpetrators and victims would focus on everybody in a peer culture. in a workplace, it would not be focusing on the person doing the abuse or the person experiencing it, it would be on everybody else in the peer culture. we have developed a strategy, if teaching strategy and a learning strategy, to engage everybody in a given workplace or." peer culture, in challenging abusive behaviors. doing it smartly, but doing it, and supporting victims and targets of abuse, but not just isolating it to the person experiencing it and the person doing it.

we don't just focus on the managers of the leaders within those spaces, or at a college or university setting. it is not just the captains of teams or the presidents of fraternities and sororities. although we do focus on leadership, we also focus on what everybody else can do, because a lot of people say, i am not sure what to do, i'm not engaged in this behavior, it's not affecting me directly, i'm not sure what i can do. and that is the kind of person we want to work with, in this model. host: who is it that calls you, ?r. katz ? who are your clients, and what we do reach up to you for this strategy? >> imi colleagues have been involved in gender balance for years. for the prevention of gender violence and that includes sexual harassment but also sexual violence, domestic violence, relationship abuse,

gay bashing and bullying. focus on sexual harassment. sexual harassment is one of a spectrum of behaviors that we address. been think we have frankly, pretty successful in working in difficult subcultures like the sports culture, kind of hyperre, masculine cultures and in increasingly male-dominated corporate spaces, because we know how to work effectively with men, and of course bridging some of the differences and challenges and working in diverse environments, not just racially and ethnically diverse but gender diverse environments. one of the strong suits is that we have an approach that can really engage a man in an effective way. host: how do you do that? >> one way to do it is defining it as a leadership issue for men, and a strength for men. a man challenging other men or interrupting other men for sexism is not something evidence

of a man weakness or softness, or something like that, or he's too politically correct. it is actually an illustration, or manifestation, of his strength and character and we do find it like that and we challenge men. we say, look, if you are silent in the face of your fellow men's abusive behaviors, or harassing behaviors, or other forms of interpersonal abuse, if you are silence, in a sense your silence is a form of complicity to the abuse. you want to be that guy? do you want to be the kind of just walks away or participates through your silence and in action, in the per peculation bass in the perpetuation of abuse or harassing behavior -- the perpetuation of abuse or harassing behavior? and i think man can respond to that. a lot of men, of course don't want to be part of a toxic system. they don't want women to experience it. they don't want themselves to experience it. a lot of men have experiences

with women close to us who have themselves been victims and targets of harassment. we have many close to us who have been victims and targets of harassment, so we are giving guys way to do with this rather than just retreat into silence or passivity. we are giving them concrete steps. and also support for doing it. and we defined the guy who doesn't speak up like in the workplace for example, the guy who does call his buddy over and say, look, i have concerns about the way you are talking about women. we are defining that as an active strength, and active friendship, and active responsibility, rather than attaching some negative characteristics to that kind of intervention. host: you deal with culture. is -- do you think the government has a role in trying to combat sexual harassment? do do laws on the books t enough? where we've had experience

over the last generation, it is the modern body of harassment laws that emerged since the 1970's and has evolved over the decades. but of a lot of the education that goes on around sexual harassment education, people are read the regulations and the rules, based on whether it is federal government, state government, different workplaces have to for mandates, a lot of this is focused on being compliant with specific language within law. and i think that is important. i think everybody in a workplace needs to know what the law is, and the law has an important role here, and legal action has an important role in mandating and following up on, and enforcing, certain codes of behavior. but we don't focus on the legal stuff. we try to have honest dialogue, and engage men and women in

workplaces, again, this is with college students, in corporate settings, in all kinds of places, and dialogues beyond their formal, legal requirements. we talk about ethical questions like, who are you as a person? who do you want to be as a person? and how does your behavior comport with who you are or the best person that you want to be? i think by stepping away from the formal legal language in the educational space, i think it opens up, it creates a mood where you can have honest sharing. and i think a lot of guys have never had an honest conversation about these matters, either with other guys or sometimes with women, and creating that educational space can be very constructive. by the way, in addition, of course people need to know what the regulations are, what the laws are, and be in compliance with them. so i don't mean to say is one of the other. but we have had a big focus for beings now, on

compliant with policy, sexual harassment policy, led by whoers and led by people are very strict about, this is the letter of the law. and i appreciate that but there is another roll for educators in this space, which is a little more opening up dialogue. host: let's hear from jim in maryland. our first caller forour first cn katz. caller: i saw mr. catch in this -- "thethe red hill." ."d pill studies about this, they talk

about what mencken can do and if you don't see the picture as --ng both sexes, jackson: this is something we ,ave had to deal with this organized movement of men who claim men are more victimized than women and that people like me and others, feminists and others who have been trying to hold men accountable and changes systems and change sexism and reduce men's violence or somehow anti-mailing ganging up on men of the true victims are men. this is a parallel universe that some of these folks are living in. i live in the real war aired we have a huge of -- i live in the real world. we have a huge problem of sexual violence by men against women.

most men who are victims of sexual violence of domestic violence or victim's of other men. i'm tired, and a lot of women and men in the field are tired ing to deal with these ignorant arguments. a lot of the people i know, women and men, who work in the spaces are concerned about violence and harassment toward men but we don't lose sight of the larger picture. the larger picture is, sexism is real and it doesn't go in both directions. men must arrest dominance is real. there are white people who are victims of racism and other are white people who suffer in some ways because of racism, but that doesn't negate the fact that ,acism is systemically disadvantages and abuses hurts people of color and we are not going to equate the two. and i would say when it comes to gender it is the same thing. i have compassion, everybody i know have compassion for men as victims, whether it is domestic

violence, sexual violence, harassment, nobody should be treated with disrespect. let's not live in a fantasy world where he somehow we we somehow have equality of victimization. men's violence against women's weight greater than women's violence against men. host: let's go to iris. caller: good morning. hopefully they were taught wheret in their home, but does harassment stopped and romance begin? who is supposed to instigate it? is there no touchy-feely? are we all becoming robots? host: mr. katz. sexual-harassment involves repeated an unwanted behavior. we can't confuse these two things. we can't confuse romantic

interludes between individuals, awkwardly trying to approach each other at a club or some other romantic setting, and the workplace. these are two different places. women and men are in the workplace to do a job, to do a professional job. and when they are treated as sexual beings, trying to do their job, which is the experience of millions a means of women, then you have a problem. so i don't think, those of us doing this work are not confused about the differences or distinctions. and i think a lot of people understand the distinctions. but they knowes, that there are lines they are crossing. the workplace is not a club. the work is not a romantic interlude. the workplace is the workplace and women want to be treated with respect and dignity. it is a very simple concept. and we talk to guys, how would you feel if you are doing a job in your treated that you were there for the sexual pleasure of others rather than being respected for your professional congressman's and your abilities? take a step back and think about how you would feel if you are constantly faced with this?

after scandal, whether it is in hollywood, fox news, in the corporate environment, in the tech industry, and the military, obviously, on college campuses. hashook at the me too tag, with women coming forward and saying they can't even read the subway without being groped. this is not about romantic confusion. come on. this is about violation of people's personal dignity and personal space and a professional integrity. host: 1.3 6 million is the number of tweets that have been too hashwith the mee tag since it was sent out on monday. caller: i worked at the post office for 30 years and before that i was in the marine corps.

and the marine corps treated me better than the post office. after retiring in 2004 a felt like i had ptsd. one thing i wanted to mention his leadership. whatever organization or company you work for, there has to be a leader that is a leader, and is wanted to charge and make sure that these things are not done. and they can allow them just by turning their head the other way. at the post office, what they did was transfer these people. they would pick somebody out and harassed them, the managers. and it wasn't a matter of male or female. --y were harassed them until untilould harass them they quit or something. you probably remember the phrase, "going postal."

host: he talked about leadership. let us hear what deborah has to say in richmond. caller: good morning. until a congregation of pastors from all over the world will e isd up and say that rap wrong, in the bible. and the horrible treatment of women, in the bible is wrong. this is going to go on forever. host: two interesting thoughts. what do you think? son: there's no doubt this is a leadership issue. i bee have been beating this drum for decades. in the military there is what is called a command climate.

climate in the unit is the responsibility of the commander, and that should be the situation in every workplace, the manager, the corporate leaders, the president of the company, and colleges and it's not the student athletes that set the tone it's the athletic director. leaders have an incredibly important role to play in enforcing a specific code, that this is what we expect and the support we are going to do if people don't meet those expectations. because, if you want to be part of his workplace, you want to be part of this team, you want to allate in this fraternity, sorts of settings, these are the ways we're going to expect you to treat each other and if you are a man we expect you to treat dignity.h respect and or, you can be out of line with the values of this workplace and the values of this organization. and the manager, the leader has more responsibility than everybody else. the bystander approach means

everybody within a given up your culture has a role to play, not just the leaders. i often explain that the bystander, the friend or coworker who challenges or interrupts abusive behavior, is actually acting as a leader does. because what they are doing is, they are seeing a situation that something is wrong and they are executing a leadership protocol, which is assessing the situation, try to figure out what their options are, and then acting. so there is a direct relationship between his bystander approach, where everybody has a role to play, and leadership. the people in positions of the formal leadership have an added responsibility. need to get to a place in our society where if you are a man in leadership, you are going to be expected to create and sustain these kinds of healthy environments. you are going to be expected to proactively callout abusive behavior and model that behavior. and if you're not doing that you

are going to be seen as failing in her leadership. it is note, for man, just that you're not a nice guy or we are hoping that you are nice guy. if you don't do this and make this a priority in your leadership and/or management, you are failing as a leader and a manager in a 21st-century workplace. and i am sorry to say, if you look all around you, there is a lot of men who are not doing very well in this regard. i think we need to ramp up our game quite a bit. from tommy, and then nancy. tommy from woodward, oklahoma. caller: this is tommy and i would like to say i was the first woman hired as a rust for mobile oilma corporation. and we had five different offices at five different groups of people in oklahoma where we could bid around from job to job. i had college and i was the most ,ualified when they hired me

and they said when i get tired of an area i could bid in another area that was maybe 20 miles away. it worked well that i didn't the stay in one place but there was harassment and there was dirty jobs and i was given more than my share. and i made my mind up that i was i was going to do it. i wasn't going to be run off. i tried to get along with everybody and the wives, most of the men would introduce me to their wives and we would make a friendship outside of the work. they would be nice to me and i would be nice to them, and for almost 20 years it worked. but there were one or two times that i was actually, thought about, but i could never get the foreman's job i wanted or the gang-push her job i wanted.

it was always, i could be a pump or release operator or a roustabout, or repairman, but i couldn't get his supervisors job. host: nancy in north carolina. you can always find our "washington journal" online at c-span.org. supreme, to hear from court justice ruth bader ginsburg about her career, and social justice. she will be speaking with judge jan williams at the second circuit court of appeals. david: hello