one way or another. >> a wider range of concerns that lawmakers had about the breadth of these companies and lack of accountability for them. for example, john kennedy not particularly active on tech issues. consumer data privacy is something that has a huge bearing on the investigation. clearly something that is worrying him. i think we understood that while russia was the focus of the hearing, there is a broader set of concerns may be fueling this discussed -- his trust. istrust.essed -- d

>> now wilbur ross talking about efforts to modernize operations at the u.s. census euro ahead of the next count schedule or 2020. this portion is two hours. >> the census ensures every vote, every person should be counted. four reapportionment -- is important for constituting our government, also worked the resources and services of our government.

the census is vitally important for a number of visas are you it is eminently predictable. there are a few things quite like the census. it happens every 10 years whether you are ready or not you it is incredibly important beginning with the fundamental truth of counting every one of our fellow citizens. we know well in advance when it is coming so we cannot complain when we are caught off guard and that we did not see it. have a couple years before we count everyone but now is the time to make sure we are ready to count everyone with accuracy, security, and professionalism. we are concerned with cost, citizens are hearing about cuts, and there are concerns about the deficit and debt which is also important. it is also important we get this done accurately in a fashion worthy of the world's great democracy. what would be even worse than

unexpectedly high cost is a next giggly high cost coupled with less than full success. we want to make sure the census is a consent -- a success. would you help make sure the right questions are asked in a timely fashion. ross, i appreciate his time and the time he has given our committee before today as well as his appearance today. we live in a country that is increasingly skeptical of whether or not we can get things done right in a timely fashion and in a responsible way. our country as a whole, irrespective of the region you may live or political ideation, would appreciate a good story of how a government entity was prepared to come up efficient, and exceeded expectations. 2020 may seem like a long ways off. it is coming. when it comes we are going to

have counted 300 million plus people accurately. essencetime is of the -- of the essence even today. with that i would welcome witnesses especially secretary ross ag yield the remainder of my time to my friend mr. meadows. >> think you. thank you for your leadership on this particular issue. as we go into this hearing today it is critically important that we all realize that while 2020 is a good ways off, we have already missed critical testing and critical implementation that should have already been done according to our own schedule that we have had in previous hearings. the i.t. systems that are out there, there are some 43 i.d. systems that need to be implimented. yet today only for have actually

been fully implemented via another 31 are only partially 18 have not been delivered in any way form or fashion. continue to have hearings over and over and over again about the critical nature of making sure that we not only get systems implemented, but tested, and that we do testing on a basis to make sure that cybersecurity, other fumbles do not happen. yet here we are today on another concerned thatm the focus will be on the $3 billion in terms of a budget shortfall and not on the other critical mission steps that have to be addressed. let's today focused not on the $3 billion but on the management issues that must be done. in doing so we are talking a

whole lot about disaster relief in every other area. today is a day we need to start talking about the vast relief for what will be a disaster if we don't get on this today. mr. secretary thank you for coming. i have been informed by some of your staff that you are on this and that you plan to make sure this is not just a budgetary component, it is a component that actually looks at the management procurement. i was pleasantly assured of that this morning. we look forward to hearing from you. i thank you for your leadership and as we get this right i look forward for this to be a good story in the years to come. >> the gel and from no one does recognized. >> thank you.

if there is one point we can get across to those watching today's hearing, i believe it is simply this. the census bureau is dangerously underfunded and has been for years. unless we do something about it right now, not yesterday, not today, but right this moment, this massive deficiency could unfurl the fairness and accuracy of the census of self. ablecans expect us to be to do things right. i think the chairman would agree with me. inwant to be effective efficient in whatever we do. mr. meadows is right. money,ot just a thing of it is a thing of operation and making sure things are done aoperly area this is not

partisan observation. both progressive and secure -- conservatives agree current projections are way way way way way way way way way way way too low. the census is understaffed and underfunded. america is in serious danger of the census going wrong. gentlemen, we cannot .fford to allow that to happen this is the united states of america. the exceptional nation. if we cannot count the 300 plus million people who are in our country, i don't know how exceptional we'll be determined

to be. last month the conservative american enterprise institute joined with a senator on budget and policy priorities in warning congress that current level of flat or near flat funding, quote, is unprecedented and would significantly undercut efforts to conduct an accurate survey, end of quote. they warned that, quote, shortchanging the census is penny-wise and pound foolish. that it, quote, jeopardizes the bureau's ability to implement cost-effective new technologies end of quote, and it, quote, could backfire, costing taxpayers more in the long run. end of quote. i say that we are better than that. i'd like to show a few charts that illustrate this urgent problem. it won't show up on the screen, but members it will show up on your screens at your desks.

first, as we all know, funding for census bureau is strictly increases dramatically in years eight through ten of each decade to accommodate the ramp-up in activities for the census in year ten. the first chart shows funding for the last four decades in inflation adjusted dollars. for the 1990 census, the bureau increased from $596 million to $3 billion over the last four years. for the 2000 census, it increased from $535 million to $6.9 billion over this period. for the 2010 census it increased from $1.1 billion to $8.4 billion over this period. but what are we doing now? we are basically flat-lining. the trump administration did not request a

significant increase for 2018. you can see the same trends when you look at the budget from a percentage basis, which is what this next chart shows. the 1990 census had a massive increase in the last four years of the cycle. as did the 2000 census and the 2010 census. but here is where we are now. the administration is not on track to match past increases for 2020. if we use these historical trends to project forward total census bureau funding would be increasing over the next several years. but that is not what is happening. as this last chart shows, there is a shortfall of about $760 million when you compare what the administration is requesting to past trends. i

say that we are better than that. now congress shares part of the blame, no doubt about it. in 2012, congress insisted that the census bureau spend less on the 2020 census than it spent on the 2010 census. congress refused to acknowledge or budget for two of the most significant and predictable drivers of cost increases that occur between each census -- inflation and population growth. aggravating this problem even more, congress appropriated even less than the census bureau requested in every single year since 2012. now some people will argue that the census bureau was supposed to save billions of dollars this time around by using new i.t. innovations to reduce the number of workers it needs to hire and increase the number of people who submit their forms online.

the problem is that when you starve the census bureau year after year after year, it cannot make the investments needed to implement these innovations. and this is exactly what happened. and i'm sure secretary ross will talk about that. as a former director of the census bureau, john thompson, who left his position this summer, explained to "the washington post" just this week, and i quote, had we been funded to do everything we asked for then, we'd be much farther ahead, end of quote. he continued, quote, at this point, they're going to have to go back and do some of it your way, with paper and pencil. end of quote. with paper and pencil. this is the exceptional nation. the one that has done the census over and over and over and over again. secretary ross, i want to thank you for being here today and for briefing members of the

committee last week. i understand you have limitations on your time, but mr. secretary, we beg you to -- we have members i'm sure the chairman will emphasize this. we have members that are very interested in this subject. and i hope -- unless you're meeting with the president, i hope that you can spare us a few extra moments because we do want to get to members. as i close, i know you will get into this during your testimony, but i appreciate that as a result of your own team's review, you've also recommended that the administration increase its requests for 2018 by $187 million. and thank you for doing that, because so often we have secretaries come in and they don't say exactly what they need because they don't want to get

people upset. but this is just too important. i commend you for taking this step, and i know you understand the importance of this issue as a former eenumerator yourself. however, i believe that even this request is far too low, too low. did you hear me, secretary? too low. especially given the number of tests that have been canceled and extremely low number of hires at the moment. and so i know you are constrained in your current position. i was amazed to hear that the office of management and budget rejected your request for an additional $50 million for contingencies that are virtually certain to occur. nevertheless, we have a responsibility under the constitution of the united states to ensure that the census is fund ed aed a kwatly, and that the census has the resources it needs to conduct a fair and accurate census. this should matter to each and every one of us because while we

historically discuss minority and immigrant populations being undercounted, low income and rural communities are also at risk of being missed, particularly in a digital census. for this reason, yesterday i joined my colleague representative carolyn maloney who also chairs the congressional census caucus in introducing legislation to fund the bureau at $1.935 billion this year. an amount that reflects budget projections from the bureau's fiscal year 2017 budget, and an extra $135 million for increases in the necessary funds for the c-cap program. as i close, we must recognize the gravity of the situation we are facing. and mr. chairman, i think. you have taken on this matter very, very seriously. as you said earlier,

we had very informative meeting with the secretary. i think that helped to lay a foundation for this meeting. and i look forward to the testimony. and thank you very much for your indulgence. >> the gentleman from maryland yields back, we want to welcome you, mr. secretary. pursuant to committee rules, i'm going ask you to please stand and we'll administer the oath. if you raise your right hand, you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you're to be give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so, help you god? let the record reflect that the witness answered in the affirmative. you may take your seat, mr. secretary. your entire opening statement will be made part of the record. you'll have five minutes to summarize that. i want to say as mr. cummings did, we appreciate the fact that there are other demands on your time, and we want to be good stewards on your time. the census is one of the unusual

entities that is squarely within the jurisdiction of this committee. and there are lots of members that have questions. so what i'm going to ask of my colleagues on both sides is to exercise the self-restraint of getting your questions done within five minutes. i'm notoriously slow on the gavel because it's hard to unlock the mist travel office world in five minutes. but i'm going to ask my colleagues to self-discipline to get it done within five minutes so everyone can have a chance to interact with you, and we can also be a good stewart of your time. with that, i would invite you to turn on the microphone and you are recognized for your opening statement. >> thank you very much. chairman gowdy, ranking member cummings, and members of the committee, thank you for your continuing support and your discerning oversight. thank you also for allowing the opening statements to be read while i was reviewing

some of the newly developed materials so i could comment on it myself. an efficient 2020 census that provides a full, fair and accurate count has been one of my highest priorities since being confirmed in february. i myself was an enumerator as i work midway through business school. and so i have a strong appreciation for the responsibilities and the unique challenges of counting everyone in the united states once every ten years. any operation that must hire and manage half a million temporary employees with complex and new technological systems and with rigid completion dates is bound to be a difficult undertaking for even the most experienced

managers. and it's been clear to me from the beginning of my tenure that census would be one of the most challenging aspects of the entire commerce portfolio. i agree with the members of this committee. the census is the bedrock upon which we construct our system of democratic representation. it provides for apportionment, redistricting, and the distribution of hundreds of billions of dollars of federal funding. accordingly, some of my first meetings as the newly confirmed secretary of commerce were with the commerce staff. in those meetings i sought to identify and then address the key issues faced by the dicennial census. my early

concerns were heightened when only two months into my tenure, the census bureau suddenly announced a 40% cost overrun in one component, namely, the census enterprise data collection and process inging ced-cap program. a critical part of the infrastructure for the 2020 census. in terms of the broader dicennial census, the prior administration's last life cycle cost estimate in the october 2015 was $12.5 billion. when testifying before congress in june, i did not accept that figure. instead, i vowed to

return to congress after a thorough review with a vetted 2020 census life cycle cost that i could support. the product of that review is what brings me here today. as promised, we assembled a team of experts to conduct an independent review of the estimate. and they have come back with numbers i now stand behind as we continue our preparation for 2020. the team is comprised of financial management experts from the department of commerce, from the office of management and budget, former census employees, two former technology executives with the experience in rolling out complex systems, as well as other experts with extensive private sector experience. in conducting our review, we looked at the many concerns raised by the gao and members of congress,

including those on this committee about the census bureau's cost estimates. i'm aware of the funding statistics presented by ranking member cummings and can assure you that the $760 billion budget shortfall and its impact is encompassed within our new life cycle projections. you will hear testimony from both the gao and the commerce ig discussing their concerns with the prior 2015 life cycle cost estimate. for example, the gao estimated that the i.t. budget would be at least $4.8 billion. our estimate is $4.96 billion. so $160

million over the floor that the gao estimated would be the correct number rather than the previously used one. i share their concerns, and their testimony will underline the need and justification for this new life cycle cost estimate. gao also points out that there are 43 technology systems involved in the 2018 end to end test. only four of those systems had completed development and integration tests as of august 2017. and of the 39, a function of the has been deployed in the 2018 end to end test. but that is not yet true for the remaining 18. with so much still under development, the need for a

contingency to address possible overruns seems self-evident. these are just a few examples. the ig provided another example regarding address canvassing. where they found that it would cost at least three times the amount the census bureau estimated in 2015. we agree with that, and we have incorporated that into our numbers. on the whole, we found that the prior administration provided congress and the public with overly optimistic assessments of both the ease of implementing new technologies and the cost save, they would provide. these issues were undoubtedly compounded by initial appropriation constraints. also, procurement decisions created a series of

silos, most of which had a small firm as the general contractor and a number of major firms as subcontractors. a very complex structure. worse yet, many segments were on a time and materials basis. and in my view, that's the most dangerous form of a contract. the prior administration also failed to follow basic management practices like using certified cost estimators and checking estimates against actual costs. we have addressed these values and corrected the record with this new life cycle cost estimate. we identified key areas where census programing would likely create costs above

the 2015 estimate. those include declining self-response rates, increased public concerns about privacy and cybersecurity. high levels of mistrust of the federal government, tightening in the labor markets since 2010, development and integration of new technologies and the complex array of contractors and subcontractors. this leads us to now project reaa revised life cycle of $15.6 billion. the increase includes contingency funding of $1.2 billion to address additional potential risks and associated challenges such as national disasters, potentially even lower self-response rates. the

difficult and cost of hiring 500,000 temporary workers in a tight labor market, and the complexity of developing and integrating multiple information technology innovations. over 80% of the projected spending, over 80% will occur post 2018. so it's a very back-ended expenditure as congressman cummings pointed out in his charts. in this rapid ramp-up in the future brings its own challenges to implementation and to cost control.

our $1.2 billion reserve, a contingency of 10% of the post 2018 budget on top of the independent cost estimate level will be managed at the secretarial level and used only if unforeseen developments occur. caller: our new 15 six million dollars 2020 census cycle cost 187 million only 2018tment for fiscal year you working with house and

senate operators on this last. these will allow us to make a significant cost correction to keep crucial programs on track and provide much-needed oversight and management of the census hero. the census bureau department come first -- commerce will manage 2020 tenses efficiently while maintaining the highest all of you. the undersecretary for a economic affairs has been in place august and her direct oversight over the 2020 census, the census bureau, in the bureau of economic analysis. she brings over three decades of management experience in the

financial investment sector with experience managing people, strategy, budgets, operations, public relations, season and experienced senior management is also in place at the census bureau itself. german, performing the non-exclusive duties and functions of the director of the u.s. census bureau and enrique lummis, performing the nonexclusive duties of the deputy director in chief operating officer of the u.s. census bureau are jointly leading the census. each has nearly three decades of congress now conducts

census overviews that will require metric tracking on a real-time basis. congress also has monthly meetings with omb, census program managers and commerce 2020 leadership team under secretary kelly to review issues related to the program's budget is, scope, and risks. these management meetings include detailed reviews of the evolving budget and lifecycle cost estimates for the 2020 census. the results of these meetings are reported directly to me by undersecretary kelly and her staff and we maintain a free flow of access and information so i can person of late -- so i oversee thely dissent yelp.

we are now 30 months away from the 2020 census. there are still many challenges ahead. the need for additional resources are urgent. and the details i've listed the additional resources requested, i am confident we fair, anda full, accurate census. i look forward to working with this committee, your staff, and the rest of congress over the months and years to come and i think the committee for the opportunity to come before you today. i look forward to your questions. mr. duncan: many of us who were here at the time of the last census received a lot of complaints about the american community survey

and some privacy advocates were critical and our colleague ted poe has led a charge against this. he called that survey and unnecessary and completely unwarranted intrusion. a charge to make the survey voluntary. i wonder if you have looked at that to see if you could make the survey less intrusive so we won't get as many complaints this time as we did the last time. is second question i have many states will be trying to do anything they can to make sure they don't lose a member of congress or maybe they pick up one and many federal preparations are based on population. can you assure us that steps are being taken -- can you assure us that steps are being taken?

>> well, thank you. those are two questions. i'll try to answer them in sequence. the american community survey is one of the department of commerce is most valuable products. survey would have a negative effect on the reliability of the data. for world and small communities. at the same time, the census bureau continues to look for ways to reduce the burden on responding. such as removing questions by using other data sources information that people have already provided to

government in a different form. we are trying to reduce the scope of the burden as a means informationof making it easier. to assuref trying that we really do count everyone, we've made a number of changes. first of all, the communications budget for the 2010 dicennial census was $350 million. and that included outreach to nonprimary english speaking communities. we have increased that budget to $500 million this year or for 2020. and that equates to an inflation adjusted 420 million that would have been in 2010. so we've had a material step up in the communications budget. and in the 2010-2020 census, about half

of that will go for our partnerships, the various faith-based and other community organizations that help us get to the more difficult to enumerate parts of the population. so we are keenly aware of the need for even greater effort than was used before. and finally, we have added internet response as an additional tool to make it more convenient for that portion of the population that likes to use internet. so we've made a number of very specific modifications, all of which we believe will lead to the end result of a more accurate and more complete census. show less text >> all right. thank you very much. thank you, mr. chairman. >> gentleman yields back. the gentleman from maryland. [

inaudible ] >> mike. in 2012, the congress directed the bureau to spend less than the 2000 census. and i quote, not adjusting for inflation, end of quote. since that time, congress has basically starved the bureau of funds and has appropriated less than the census bureau requested in every single fiscal year since 2012. this must have negatively affected the bureau's investments in new technologies. is that right? in other words, did it affect your investment in new technologies? sir? show >> well, the expenditures you're describing, if i understand it correctly, are the ones prior to the present period. and i have

seen the chart, and it roughly parallels even though the distribution year by year isn't the same, the 2020 one roughly parallels the expenditures for the 2010 census. the 2020 census is heavily back ended as were the prior ones. but it's even more so because of the nature of the technological changes that we're making. so if you would superimpose on your chart and in the supplemental material that i file after today, i'll fill in the blank for you and show you how our projected budget for 2020 would compare both with the fluctuation, the amplitude in the prior ones, and you'll see we're coming to a significantly higher absolute level than they

had been. >> okay. in previous decades, this is the year, year eight when there are larger funding increases as the census bureau strictly ramps up towards census day. however, the trump administration did not seem to recognize this precedent earlier this year. the president requested only a 1.8% increase in funding for the bureau in fiscal year 2018. is that right? >> i believe so. and i believe that was based on the information he then had from the prior management of census. >> well, you can -- you presented our committee with data last week showing that this level of funding is inadequate and could impair our ability to provide for a fair and accurate

census. you are now requesting an additional $187 million to make up for what your department termed a, quote, shortfall, end of quote, in the budget request for fiscal year 2018. is that figure correct? >> yes, sir. i believe we do need $187 billion -- million more than was in. and omb supports that request? >> that's my understanding. >> you also informed the committee last week that you at the commerce department as well as the census bureau believe that you need more than that amount to fully be prepared for all eventualities. you asked for an additional $50 million to cover contingencies that almost certainly will occur. that

correct? >> yes, sir. >> but omb denied that request, is that right? for the contingencies? >> i don't know that they have taken a position on the overall life cycle costs. but our focus because of the urgency of the budget had been on getting their support for the immediate request for an additional appropriation. >> do you know whether that came to the attention over mr. mulvaney? >> oh, it's been brought to mr. mulvaney's attention. by me. running out ofam time. but do you know if the president is aware of your request for the additional $50 million? >> i have not personally spoken to the president about it. >> last question. so what will happen if problems arise? how will you obtain funding to cover them?

>> well, we believe that the $187 billion will cover us through the fiscal year 2018. we're reasonably comfortable with that. the bigger risk comes after 2018 because that's when 80 plus percent of the money will be spent. so 2018 we think is pretty high visibility, pretty well within hand. it's post that period that needs the big contingency. >> all right. thank you, mr. chairman. >> gentleman yields back. mr. comer from kentucky. comber: -- mr. comer: thank you, mr. chairman. the bureau's contracts -- i'm going to ask a question about the contracts, are set up as time and material contracts which means they're limited incentives for contractors to control labor hours and costs. to your knowledge, what was the thinking behind this type of contract?

secretary ross: i have no idea, sir. i've been less worried about reexploring the past than about trying to make sure we get our arms around the future. comer: what do you think the department can do to manage these contracts more effectively? secretary ross: well, we're interacting quite aggressively with the contractors, and that's about all that we really can do. many of the contracts have very severe cancellation provisions, and would be very disruptive to cans at this stage in the game in any event. so i think we have to manage through the process pretty much with the existing group of contracting parties. but the intensity of interaction i can promise you is a lot more than it had been. comer: okay. one more quick

question, mr. secretary. with respect to i.t., are you concerned that certain i.t. products and systems may not be delivered in their final form and time for testing during the 2018 end to end test? show less ? secretary ross: so far as we can tell, the ones that are incomplete are reasonably unscheduled. but it's always the last 10% that's the devil. it's just like in any contract, the devil is in the details. mer: okay. well, thank you, mr. secretary. it's an honor to have you here. i'm a big fan of yours when you were on cnbc over the years. i yield back, mr. chairman. >> gentleman yields back. ms. maloney. ms. maloney: thank you. first of all, secretary ross is from the great state and city of new york. and i'd like to welcome you here today and thank you for

your public service. in your comments, you seem voir dire committed to getting an accurate count, which is mandated in our constitution. but if you look at the spending levels, granted you're just new in this job, but for the census of for 2020, the spending the red line is way behind the prior censuses from 2010, 2000, 1990. secretary ross: can you raise the whole thing? i can't site. maloney: you know what? let's take it down and give him one of these. but this is a chart that we have on it, on the ratio of the census budget to year one of the decade. but in any event, as a businessman, it's hard to achieve the results without spending. so i certainly support your spending requests of $187 million, and i think it's a good start, but i don't think it's good enough. you have a lot to catch up on. several of the dress rehearsals were canceled. the foreign language

rehearsals canceled. this is a major undertaking. it's one of the major undertakes of our country. and if we don't have a good census, you know we don't have good data for government policy or business policy. so i want to know what you're doing to address the immediate problem. and as i understand it, your increase of 187 million is basically for it work. but in your new life cycle estimate, you identified 7 major cost drivers. and the first two of these are all about public confidence, public response, and public concern. and these cost drivers can be addressed through education, and out reach and promotion of the census. and we have seen that before. the 1990 census was called failure because there was a declining

response rate. in the 2000 census the congress allocated more money and called for a paid advertising campaign. and for partnership out reach and all types of effort to build up participation. and both in 2000 and 2010, we were theessful in increasing public response rate up, it was critical in keeping the expensive follow up methods that you have to do if there's an under count. so that's very important. now i read recently in the washington post, that the add contract congress mandated for the 2020 hasn't been funded yet. and and the partnerships have not been fully fulled. this

the census has to start early to be successful. the partnerships with communities like the naacp, like hispanics and lgbt community. you have to fill those contracts. and they haven't been filled with people yet. as i understand. and nowhere in your testimony or your documents do you propose fully funding the ad contract as originally planned. let alone increasing the contract to start addressing the later start in tracking these cost drivers that you identified in public out reach. so yesterday i am supporting your effort, mr. secretary i introduce the 2020 american census investment act. which would provide more funding for the census. and mandate that funds be used on promotion, education, out reach, and in addition to the it that you are

addressing. and i just would like to hear your comments on that. on whether or not you will be funding by the way i want to thank chairman cummings for ranking member for supporting the bill. and the efforts to increase funning for it. and do you feel that funding the ad contract? will you be funding the partnership out reach? will you be funding education and out reach to get participation up in the census? secretary ross: thank you, congresswoman. i'm not used to being granted more money than i ask for, that's a totally new experience for me. ms. maloney: we want to make sure we get an accurate account. we're way behind spending in the prior census in the decade.

secretary ross: as i said earlier to ranking member. we believe the shortfall of the million. and the impact on the over all program, is made up for by the funding we have requested in the total life cycle cost. ms. maloney will you be : investing in promotion and education? and advertising? ross: we are investing in all sorts of things. for one thing the communications budget will be $5 hub million. opposed to the 350. that was spent in 2010. inflation adjusting the 2010 would bring it to 420. we're running $80 million more than on an inflation adjusted basis than the 2020. in addition -- ms. maloney my time is almost : up. the economic survey is that on track? the economy survey.

secretary ross: i think so. so far. but that's not the most urgent part of the problem of the communication. what we're doing is several things. we have more ways that people can respond than ever before. we're doing more language training than before. for example, we have introduced telephone call centers. and they will have the capability of openering in -- of operating in ten languages. naturally including spanish. our population is more diverse than that. so the call centers will be able to do up to 10 languages. in addition, the census enumerators will provide support through the nature of people we select in multiple languages. we're trying to match the characteristics of the

enumerators to the characteristics of the population in the area they will be surveying. as to the partnerships we certainly agree those are a big key. and those will include national organizations, state and local governments, churches, and other faith based organizations. health clinics, legal aid centers. and other support mechanisms. so we're trying to work with all of those and the partnership program will consume approximately half of the 500 million budget. for communication. that's about 248 million will go for the partnership. so we believe that we are dealing adequately with the need for those. maloney: thank you.

gentlelady yields back. the gentleman from texas. >> thank you. i'm over here in the corner. secretary, ross. other direction. secretary ross: oh, sorry. >> i have got a couple questions for you. it seems to me the census bureau has this attitude of we have to do it ourselves. and aren't looking to products that maybe already out there or companies that you might be able to contract with to save some money. for instance it's my understanding that the census bureau received numerous recommendations inclouding from the gao and the scientific advisory committee as well as the private sector. that how the census bureau could better use commercial mapping and gis. which would yeed a large cost saving and increase productivity. however to date the census bureau doesn't appear to have recognized or

implemented any or any of the recommendations. how come we haven't been looking at things commercial mapping and gis. which would yeed a large cost like that? secretary ross: well, there were very many private organizations contacted in the original process. i can't the process by which they made the final selection they did. that is basically occurred years before. but we're dealing with the contracts that we do have. we believe that these are qualified people. and we believe that we will be able to get the job done. if we get the additional funding that we have requested. >> can you maybe provide -- ross" -- secretary ross: in terms of lessons learned. one of the things we intend to do as we go along, is the to keep careful track of further improvements that should be made in subsequent censuses. i think with only having 30 months between now and the 2020

enial,d the all -- dec making radical changes would probably guarantee that we didn't get it right sfl i'm concerned about the path we're on. not getting there. if you could get me a list of the proposals in recommendations. i sure would like to take a look. just as an old computer guy we do the census every ten years and very few computer systems that have an effective life beyond ten years. we'll gear up with the new computer system in 2020. and here we are in 2030, we'll be sitting here doing the exact same thing. when it seems to me you could get with a cloud service that is secure. and we have those at the government uses now. and get an application written for people's phone. this seems simpler. and this cloud

service that we would use would buy the computers and size them the way they need to be sized. so they work. and when we're done with needing a massive capacity, there they're for them to use for other clients. to me that makes economic sense. rather than the dpovt attitude of we have to do everything ourselves. especially in it. where i think the government really struggles. we're dammed by some of our own contracting laws. it seems like this is a great opportunity to look for some cost savings. and something i brought up to your predecessor. several years ago. but it fell on deaf ears. show secretary ross: we do believe that the cost will come in below the inflation adjusted cost of the 2010 census. not with standing that there are the over runs. predecessors estimated that the inflation adjusted cost of 2020 using the 2010 methodology would have been 17.5

billion. so we're way more than a billion below that. with all the problems that have occurred. second in terms of using existing data bases, we do what we can. for example we making a lot of use of the administrative records. the postal system records. local with the irs records. social security records. to check id. things of that sort. but the truth is americans are very mobile population. something like 12% relocate each year. show less >> i'm running out of time much i want to make one more comment. i think the postal service is an unused government resource. it could be of more help to the census than i think they're using. postal service employees

that visit almost every american residence five, six times a week. there's a great resource there that maybe under utilized. my time is up. if you'd like to comment further -- secretary ross we are. we're : using the postal service and as i say the irs, social security, medicaid, medicare records. the indian health service. the every data base that we can imagine. because we really are trying to make sure we count everyone. and that we count everyone one time. >> gentleman from texas yields back. gentleman from is -- gentleman from missouri is recognized. >> thank you secretary ross. for your testimony. secretary ross: i don't know the geography of the committee. well enough.

>> i understand. really, the census is about three things. money, information, and power. and no community or state wins if we fail to get this right. our nation will be the ultimate loser. and as you all know, our country is more mobile as you said and more diverse than ever before. and sadly in some parts of our nation, residence have a high level of distrust. for the federal government which makes them less inclined to take part in this census. that's true in

urban communities like the one that i represent. in st. louis which always struggles. with a lower self-reporting response. in generally across the nation, african americans, asians and new immigrants, and the rural poor are at a much greater risk of not being counted. a costly mistake they will pay for for an entire decade. that's why the under funded the census 2020 out reach programs to hard to count groups is such an enormous by partisan threat. to every state and every district that we represent. and i guess i'm wondering, i want to start the line of questioning following up on ms. maloney's questioning. hard to count, hard to reach audiences and lack of funding for this initiative which is part of your communications contract. must receive the full attention of your

administration. and i say that because the component of the communications contract needs, they need to be made full partners in the communications effort. because that's where the challenge will be. on how we get to those hard to count populations. if i could just hear your concerns about that. and where we're going with it. ross: surely. the entity over all in charge of communications is -- which also was involved in the 2020 di sen yell. we have the institutional knowledge they gain by their role ten years ago. second, the they have retained something like 15 individual firms that

specialize either in different forms of media or different ethnic groups. we tried to pinpoint. further i may not have made it clear when what i said before, but the 500 million of communications is in addition to the $248 million for the partnership. so altogether we're spending $748 million on this outreach initiative. and when you consider how many total households there are, that's quite a bit per household. and if you take out of that the ones that are easy responders, we're spending an enormous amount per household on the one that is are difficult to reach. that's quite a deliberate thing. we have been

conservative in our estimate of those who will give voluntary response. last census was 63.5%. we're assuming that may drop to 55%. so we have assumed a despite massive communications, we have assumed that a higher percentage of the population will still need the foot soldiers clogging around and ringing doorbell's. mr. clay: and your partnership program calls for testing of communication. methods. all communications elements. secretary ross: yes, sir. mr. clay: and that is being cancelled for 2018. how will the elements be tested? secretary ross: it hasn't been

cancelled. it's been postponed. mr. clay postponed. so in some : time in the calendar year of 20, it will be tested? secretary ross yes. clay: i thank you for that response. i yield back. the gentleman from georgia is recognized. >> i appreciate you being here. who is responsible to deliver the i.t. products on time? who is response? the census bureau is responsible. they have a whole series of contracting parties. if you count them all up they are probably 100. but somebody has to be responsible that the product is delivered. secretary ross well, ultimate le

: me at commerce. and karen kelly as the over sight of the census. >> so why are the it products not delivered on time? what's the hold up? secretary ross for the delivery : of the i.t. products. we're going end to end and don't have what we need. i think the original estimates as to how long it would take and how much it would cost to get to those products were flawed. so some of it maybe contractor not performing as well. i can't judge what went on prior to the present. i think it's a combination of over optimism on the part of census. and maybe some errors on the part of the contract. >> is there any accountability, is there any penalty for not delivering on time what was promised to be delivered? secretary ross: well, each contract is different. but when you're on a time and materials contract, the concept of penalty doesn't really work very well. >> so we're just going to have

ambitious we hope to deliver but we won't deliver, and there's no accountability. secretary ross there's not as : much accountability as there would have been if there were fixed price, fixed time contracts. that's not the situation that we are faced with. >> so, when do we have -- whenfe contracts. that's not the can we possibly guess under these circumstances that we'll receive what we have? ross: we have given more than what we think is a guess. we have done lots of work out in the field. we have done analysis of what's been done thus far. lots of analysis of the contracts. and we believe that this budget fazed in the way that we have proposed will deliver the product that we need. >> i don't share your optimism. i don't see how in the world you can either with the type of situation we're dealing with. and then you look at cyber security. how confident are you that this information gathered with an i.t. that hasn't been tested is going to be secure?

secretary ross well, in today's world you can't be sure of anything in terms of cyber security. but i can assure you the systems we're putting in are far more robust than anything that is ever been done before in census. i know last year that cio for bureau made a similar statement. saying they had great confidence that the cyber security was in tact. and yet the system hadn't even been tested. how in the world can you have the confidence on something we know nothing about? secretary ross: first of all i didn't say i have confidence that it's impengable. it's robust than had been true in 2010. >> how do you know that? secretary ross: because of discussions with the people who are doing the implementation of it. but, having said that, i'm not aware that there's any

system that is flawless. >> sir, so you are giving great confidence to us about the cyber security based on conversations. secretary ross: no. >> conversation is not enough to give assurance this is protected. secretary ross the systems : themselves will be far more robust than anything census has used before. >> yet we have not seen the systems. secretary ross no, because they : are work in progress. >> it's all based on conversation. not on test. this is all part of the problem. we get promises that are never delivered on. and we get now we have stiber security promises commitments that most robust thing we have seen before. that is simply based on conversation not on test. it looks to me like we're going to go back to the same thing that happened in 2010

when we were promised all kinds of modernization. but it was a faulty program. so we end up with a paper based census. i don't see how we can proceed with this any further. without going back to paper base and be honest with what we are dealing with. >> it's impossible to test something that does -- that does not yet exist. >> my point precisely. secretary ross: 80% of the spending will be post 2018. but let me describe to you what it is that we are doing. all of the data on the census systems are being protected. we're playing some rigorous security protocol to the perimeter of the census own net work. census has an existing network. so we are applying vigorous protocol to that. we're putting in routers and firewall. we have our own detection intrusion and prevention system in place at census. census bureau now has an unprecedented level of

engagement with the best resources elsewhere in the federal government. we're working closely with cyber security experts across the department. including nist. which is part of commerce. the federal cio office. department of homeland security, and the intelligence in law enforcement community. we're also putting a new level of cyber security federal management in place for the 2020 census over and above what was done in 2010. >> mr. secretary, our time has gone. i know we want to respect the time. i appreciate your answers. they sound like talking points to me with not much beyond that. secretary ross you can't test : something that isn't in place. albright. the chair will recognize the

general lady from the virgin islands. >> thank you. good morning, sir. how are you? i want to ask you some questions which of course are something that's on the minds of quite a number of americans right now. is under taking census in areas that have recently been ravaged by disaster. and the mechanisms and processes that are potentially in place. to be able to do that. we know that millions of americans have been displaced by hurricanes harvey, irma and maria. in the states of texas, florida and then the areas of puerto rico and virgin islands. as the communities work to rebuild, large scale changes are likely to occur that i assume would greatly impact the 2020 census. if we have learned anything from hurricane katrina in 2005. it's that recovery from

large-scale, natural disaster takes time and a quite a lot of time. 2011 report by the leadership conference on civil and human rights illustrated that challenges to enumeration activity still exist in the gulf region in 2010. almost five years after katrina. the report highlighted issues such as large numbers of individuals and temporary housing. informal housing arrangements, high rates of vacant units. significant changes in new housing stock and population fix in the affected areas. mr. secretary, do you agree the bureau is likely to encounter many if not all of the challenges due to the destruction caused by this years hurricanes and perhaps future hurricanes before the census takes place? surelyry ross: you are right in pointing out issues.

many if not all of thehere's whg the 2010 census, they changed the operations in the areas that were hit by katrina and rita. basically what it involved was , putting more people on the ground to deliver questionnaires directly to housing units and updating the addresses while doing so. we can do something similar in 2020. as needed. if it does turn out that we need that, it will cost more money. but we have tried to allow an amount for these types of contingencies provided that the natural disasters are not more extreme than we have experienced in the past. in addition, we have a particular problem in the u.s. virgin islands. and for that matter in puerto rico. we conduct the census in the territories by working directly

with territorial governments to build and implement the operations that best fit their respective situations. we're developing our approach for the 2020 with the government of the virgin islands. and will ensure the operations taken to account the impact of the recent hurricanes. >> excuse me. when you say particular challenges, what have you seen in the past as being uniqueness of trying to find census data in areas like puerto rico and the virgin islands besides the obvious is we don't have street addresses? show ross: right. as you know the census has confronted those basic problems over and over. every time that they have gone through it they have learned something from the process. the difficulty we have now is that the issue with

residents has been terribly compounded by the awful destruction that occurred. so the magnitude of the task has become greater than it ever had been. >> will your budget reflect the magnitude of the hurricanes? secretary ross we have tried our : best to do so. >> and i know in the past that you have done a good job of not just partnering with the local government, but with community organizations. as well. that they have been somewhat boots on the ground for you. secretary ross: absolutely. that's why we have allocated $248 million for partnerships with local community organizations. >> okay. thank you. thank you very much. i yield back. >> the gentleman from alabama is recognized.

>> thank you, mr. secretary for being here today. i understand the frustration that my colleagues have expressed. give you an example the gao and the office of inspector general have cited a number of issues where the census bureau that you inherited. to be totally truthful about it. but the frustration is that these don't appear to have been adequately addressed. for instance, the gao included the 2020 census on the high risk list for 2017. in fact over the last three years, they have issued 30 recommendations. as of january this year only six have been implemented. are you familiar with the list? show ross: well, we have been working closely with the

gao. you will be hearing from them a bit later. and we are cooperating with them in their audit of work we have been doing. >> my question, we only have five minutes. i want to give you an opportunity to answer this is a yes or no would be sufficient. are you familiar with the list of 30 recommendations? secretary ross i couldn't hear : you. >> are you familiar with the list from the gao the 30 recommendations? secretary ross: sure. >> and you're aware only six have been implemented have been followed up on as of january of this year? secretary ross as of january. : that was true. i believe there's been further progress since then. there will be continuing progress. >> i think it's extremely important that when the gao or the oig make recommendations when they have findings of issues that federal agencies federal departments act on them. it's frustrating to the folks who are doing the work. it's frustrating to us and the over

-- in our oversight capacity. it's not just the census bureau this occurred in other agencies. there's a mounting frustration we identify problems and they don't get addressed. my question. is this a top priority. midlevel? how serious are you taking these? ross: it certainly is a top priority. and i think you'll find the oig testimony pretty well mirrors the top management challenges report that we put together. what happened prior to january of this year i can't account for. i was confirmed february 28. >> i realize that. i made that clear that you inherited most of the problems. , but the thing we want to know is that under your leadership that this is taken seriously.

the cost estimate. it began questioning that in 2008. secretary ross: it certainly is. my testimony today focussed on a lot of it. one of the recommendations is the bureau needs to manage the risk of implementing innovation. you heard my testimony. i totally agree with that. we have much more heavy handed in the management than there had been before. second, the bureau continues to face challenges in implementing and securing key it systems. 100% true. for sure. the 2018 end to end test will probably reveal some more deficiencies that we will have to deal with. >> my colleague from georgia expressed frustration with the testing progress. i appreciate your response. we have had the -- the bureau has had a number

of problems in terms of failing to adequately test systems and products. and when they do test them they're not using the results to inform the decision making. well, we will. >> that's comforting to know. and i'm certain under your leadership that will happen. that's one of the frustrations again that we have. is that you had the goa and oig. this committee, making recommendations. it's not just the department. this happened a number of times with other agencies. we want to make sure this is such a serious issue, we want to make sure that systems are tested and the results are used in the decision making. mr. chairman, i appreciate the opportunity to cement the question and i yield back. secretary ross: and the i.t. part was a key one. in the goa recommendation. as i mentioned earlier, our budget is more than what they felt was the minimum

required. they came in thinking that as opposed to i think it the formerix, that administration had estimated. they recommended 48 or more. we came in at 4,000,000,960. we're not ignoring in of those recommendations not by a long shot. >> the gentleman from alabama yields back. the general lady -- the gentlelady from florida is recognized. >> thank you so much. thank you for being with us today. you have already talked about under counted populations. but this issue has been in the news recently because of the lawsuit filed by the naacp. which it filed in part because of concerns about the under count of communities of color. young children, home renters, low income persons and rule

-- and rural residents. i'm concerned lt under count could be exaster baited in 2020. -- exacerbated in 2020 if minority groups are less inclined to share personal information with government due to climate of mistrust. by this immigration policy. can you assure immigrant families and other bad word, but marginalized groups, that their data will be kept confidential and not used to pursue law enforcement or immigration action? secretary ross i believe it : would be illegal for those data to be used for other purposes. so unless someone commits a crime i don't think that will happen. but on the naacp lawsuit, they filed a freedom of information act request with us. on the 29th of june.

ross, excuse me just a so you're saying if the second. information was used for law enforcement purposes, or for immigration policy, that that would be illegal? secretary ross: my understanding is that the information about specific individuals is not to be used for any other purpose. >> using it would be illegal? i'm trying to understand. ross: i'm not a lawyer. i can't parse that. as i understand it, it's not to be used for any other purpose. >> okay. one way i know you have also spoke about partnership programs. and certainly i believe that additional programs of that nature may lessen some of the concern. how many partnership specialists have you hired and how many do you anticipate hiring by census day? secretary ross there are quite a : few. let me see if i can get the exact number.

>> okay. while you're looking, i think my colleague mr. clay talked about testing of new processes -- secretary ross okay. the answer : is 40. 40 people. >> 40. how many do you anticipate in hiring by census day? is that the total? secretary ross: 40 i believe is the total number. to date. >> okay. to date. okay. thank you very much. any anticipated numbers by census day? at this point? secretary ross we'll see how : much comes in. a lot of community organizations are well aware of the census, had participated in it before sdp -- in it before, and are signing up themselves. so depending on whether we get a good flow consistent with improving it over the last time, that will determine how many people are needed. >> okay. thank you for that. i

know you also spoke about testing of new procedures. i'd like to talk about in rural and tribal areas. and tie in those procedures to the budget constraints that we currently face. secretary ross, what are you doing to ensure that these new processes will work smoothly in rule allen and and tribal areas? secretary ross: the tribal areas are one of the specific segments that are being tested. so that we can get real world results seeing how the procedures that we have introduced work. >> okay. and for rural and island? secretary ross same. :>> on the census web site. it says i quote we promise that we will use every technology,

statistical, methodology and physical security procedure at our disposal to protect your information unquote. could you talk about how the adequate or inadequate funding might effect that promise? secretary ross: we believe the funding we have requested will provide us the resources we need. for that purpose. >> if you do not get the funding that you requested, are you able to fulfill the promise that's on your web site? secretary ross: we will do the best we can with the resources we get. we think that the optimal amount for the proper job is the amount we requested. >> thank you, secretary ross. i yield back. >> the gentleman from iowa is recognized. >> thank you, chairman. secretary ross thank you for

being here. 15.6 billion i guess is the latest estimate. in iowa. that's a lot of money. secretary ross: it is to me too, sir. >> 125 million households. the math if i'm correct is about $125 per household. secretary ross: that's about right. >> to do what we want to do. does that strike you as a large number per household? secretary ross it is a large : number. it's even a larger number when you consider that the vast bulk of that is spent on getting the last few million in. because the ones who respond to the initial mailed document or respond over internet the cost of those is very small. it is the more difficult to enumerate people that are the most expensive to get to. the last few million people are

going to cost infinitely more than the first few million. the response rate is so critical. >> you're a private sector guy. i am as well. can you in 60 seconds let me know how much. are we utilizing the private sector? i'm thinking, for example google. probably didn't spend 15 billion to map the entire united states visually. are we utilizing the technology available to the extent possible? secretary ross i believe so. can you expand on that, briefly? especially the technology piece. ross: well, where the google type technology is helpful, is in locating physical structures. it doesn't really go within the structure to the individual person. so our task is first to identify the physical structures that have

residents in them. whatever the nature whatever the formality or informality of the living arrangement. then the real test is to get inside them and find out exactly how many people are there. so that's where the self-responses are very helpful. and we're providing for internet self-response. providing call centers to make it easy. and everybody is going to be getting mailings. and then finally as of -- as a last resort we'll use the primitive thing of a guy knocking on the door. >> speaking of a guy knocking on the door. back in my district in iowa i delivered the mail. one of them brought an idea to me. why don't they use us more. for example i know exactly in my route how many people live in each house. i know their names. why don't they utilize us? great

question. i wanted to pose that to you. secretary ross oh we do. our : fundamental data base is the postal system. no question. but because people move, people die. people all kinds of things happen. something like 12% of the population relocates during the course of a calendar year. within the more difficult to enumerate portion, there's probably more mobility than there is say in single family home in a little town. so, it's very complicated. we do begin with the postal system records. for sure. >> so you use the data base. can we utilize the man knocking on the door? can we utilize that. the postal carrier.

the man knocking on the door is the last resort. only when all the more efficient mechanisms have already been used. >> looking at the 15.6 billion.

i thought if you and i formed a company, i'm guessing we could do it for 8 billion. save the and maybe needs to stop doing. and where these things need to happen. so much of policy depends on an accurate census. we need to get it right.

secretary ross it's good to see you again. i saw you in may when you testified before the house appropriation committee. i want to touch on some areas that we do have concerns about. i think all of us in the room share the concern. we need to get it roigt. we want to learn from past mistakes. we don't want to have rose colored glasses. and unjustified hopes. we need to be a very practical and pragmatic about this. you're that person, secretary ross. so i want to touch on a few things. first warning signs of trouble. may 3rd was when the census director thompson appeared buffer my subcommittee on appropriation. and we asked him hard questions. much like the ones you're getting here today. and he resoined the next week. that's a warning sign of trouble to me. he hasn't been replaced. first question, are there immediate plans to replace the census

director? >> yes. we had actually come up with a nominee and then that fell away during the vetting process. so we're actively trying to recruit. but i have very good confidence in the team that we have asellabled right now. namely the two people who collectively have some 30 years each of experience. are there functioning every day. karen kelly is providing over sight of them. plus i'm being very personally involved and we have the whole series of ore sight meetings. meetings with the contractors. we're all over this thing. as best we can be. it's not to say we don't want to have a permanent approved census director. we do and we will. it's not an easy task to fill. you need someone who has subject matter, command and management experience to deal with the enormously challenging task of hiring a half a million temporary workers. getting them out there, getting them productive. and getting the big technology change introduced.

>> you have a lot of other things that demand your attention. i urge you to devote the maximum effort into fipding that person. to be a strong active knowledgeable census director. let's get that done quickly. >> we need to get this census right. one of the problems one of the red flags is we know there are under reported communities. a number of them have been mentioned by my colleagues. one of them i have noticed is the lgbt community. historically under reported. particularly older people. that young people are more likely to be homeless chl making it all the more likely they will be not counted. and in fact the census bureau itself has recognized

that the lgbt community is hard to count population yet the bureau has declined to put questions about sexual orientation and gender identity in to the census. secretary, did you determine that there was no federal need for this information? >> no, there were hearings held about it. there were requests put in and it was concluded that that particular set of questions did not meet the requirements for being put in. one of the problems with adding questions is it reduces response rate. it's may seem counter intuitive. the more things you ask in the forms the less likely you are to get them in. there's a balancing act. between more information and fewer responses. show less >> secretary, my time is up. i

want to associate myself with the hard questioning you got from my colleague congressman of georgia. i urge you to devote a great deal of attention to the online. the self-reporting. increasing public confidence in the cyber security of this system. because as you have said yourself today, that's the cheapest way we get the job done. with the self-reporting. with the online work. and i urge you to devote attention to increasing the publics trust in the online system. and giving them good reason to have trust in that system. with that i yield back. >> gentleman from california is recognized. >> sorry about that. the

gentleman from texas. i do want to say this, he was out several times ago and let others go. i apologize. you're up and the >> thank you. and secretary ross. it's great to have you here. it's great to know that there's attention to this important issue. you have a very important portfolio. it's great you're involved in providing loerd ship for this. i know you have inherited i think the technical term is a mess. and i recognize i appreciate your comments about how to prevent the next census from being in a similar position. so i appreciate that. when some of your predecessors were here last time, there was a debate about whether the census bureau should develop a wijt. that uses the telecommunication backbone that the enumerator can put data in.

and the question was that wij et exists. it's called a smart phone. and i'm glad to know that the census bureau decided to use i believe smart phones. and my question around that is have we discussed or have plans have you and the cio for the census bureau had some conversations around security of whatever device could be used by the enumerator? show less text >> yes. we have had consultation not only within the department. but with homeland security. with fbi, with the intelligence community. with the over all cio and the government. and in commerce. we're building in the best firewalls and routers that we possibly can. but having said that, there's some 13 year-old kid in a fwraj -- garage somewhere trying to figure out how to penetrate it. in today's world, you do your best. you can't be 100% sure.

unfortunately. >> you have to begin with the assumption of breach. i did this for a living. i never not got in. the fact that there is again focus from your office on this security of the systems and i know that 43 systems that have to be delivered or for end to end testing. in 2018. and only four of those have been delivered. i know there's conversation on that. and my concern is the bureau is going to have to get the authorizization to opener. the ato for each one of the systems. and i know some of the is section of the 43 systems already have ato. they need o get new ones because the systems

is evolving. and i'm curious in the strategy that you and your i.t. have discussed on ensuring we have the ato in time to protect those personally identifiable information. especially on the 33 systems. that do have pi. >> well, there are actually more than 50 systems that will be involved. and then their uses are to update and maintain the address list to enable people to respond by the internet. to identify the households that have not responded in order to send interviewers to them to manage the work of the interviewer. and to recruit and pay the fields work force. those are just a few kparm examples of the kind of systems. systems also capture, process, and tabulate all of the data

collected on the people living in the united states. we're monitoring the progress of all of the systems. and each one is at a different stage of completion. as we sit here. >> and so what is your strategy to ensure that the systems are delivered and have the ato necessary to get this done? >> well, we're trying to apply enough pressure on the contractors and surveillance of them to deal with the glitches that inevitably will come up. there will be unexpected problems in each area. and that's why we have allowed the 10% contingency. because most of the problems that come up can be solved. it's a question of how many people it takes and what cost. >> i'd like to offer that we would love to talk to the folks,

those contractors. they may not be delivering on time and have them join you at the table to ensure the census done properly. my last question. why did the head of the census the form drerkt tor leave the bureau? >> i think he is issued a public statement about why he left. i did not know him very well. so i can't really judge what his motivations were. he has found other employment in the statistical community. and he actually held a press conference at the national press club a week or two after he resigned and explained what the motivations were. >> thank you. i yield back the time i do not have. >> i apologize again for not counting the gentleman from texas. embarrassing in a census hearing. i apologize for that. gentleman from california.

>> i don't mind you calling him the gentleman from california. we have had so many move to texas. i specify the other gentleman from california. >> thank you so much for sticking around. i'm over here. the newest member of the house and the committee. you sticking around is helpful to me. i never get to ask the questions. i'm big fan of the census. it's a subject i studied in graduate school. took classes on it. it's important to the entire country and how we operate. one of the issues is definitely the urn count when it comes to certain communities. african americans -- and hispanics. i'm fearful that will go up in the next census because of the immigration policies. of the new

administration. the acting ice director issued a statement last week in response to a bill that was passed in california. sb 54 the california value act. they would have no choice but to conduct large scale raids and enforcement with the neighborhoods and workplaces. what kind of -- you mention this also made me think about the response rate would be 55%. has the i guess the new interior enforcement policy of the administration been taken into account when determining the response rate? the under count and just kind of figure out what impact it will have on the communities.

>> well, the there are quite a lot of questions in what you have said. but the response rate in 2010 had been 63.5%. the original estimate that the census folks had used original estimate was 60.5% this time. you took that down, to 55% for the very reasons that you are describing. is that exactly the right number? who knows. but it's a safer number than 60.5. so our starting point is a more conservative one and because of that, we have allocated more money to the difficult to enumerate part and second, we have increased the communications budget from the $350 million that was spent in 2010, to $500 million and even

if you look at 2010, on the 2020 inflation adjusted basis, that would only bring it to 420. so, it's almost a 20% increase over the inflation adjusted basis. so, we are increasing the communication is one thing and second, we are spending $248 million on these partnerships forengines, that is over and above the $500 million that we are spending on communications. so, if you add that allquarters of a billion dollars dedicated to outreach and most of that is in fact, de devoted to the last few million to try to minimize the danger of under counting. the ones that respond immediately to a mailing and a phone call, they don't cost too

much to get, it's the last ones. we have ten different languages and doing all kinds of things that were not done before. by way of training to improve the process. >> i am glad that is being taken in to account. that's why also the partnerships are so important. you mentioned that 40 special i.t.s have ss ss -- specialists have been currently budgeted. what is your goal on the number of partnerships for the 2020 synthesis -- census?

>> well, our goal is -- our taurth target is to get to a number -- >> there's a historic under count in the communities and we need too accurately count them. you have a tough job and i appreciate that there's been thought about the political and immigration enforcement. when you talk to the community, you don't think there's a correlation, but some communities have seen increases in the no-show rate up to 19%. that's a big jump. if they are not showing up to get physicals and health checkups, you will see a lower response rate. i yield back. >> the gentleman from california is recognized.

>> thank you, mr. chairman. second secretary, around here, we all say all questions have been asked but not by all of us here. seeing as i appear that i'm the last up to bat, i will try not to repeat any more than necessary. earlier on, mr. duncan asked about the american community survey. i want to plant something. i have the same concerns he has of intrusiveness and so on, and i have a concern of inaccuracy. it's anecdotal, but i have been living in the same house when i am here for years. the last census and this census, for whatever reason, they threatened my livelihood if i did not answer questions about a place that i do not live. so, pursuant to a targeting that would reasonably determine whether or not there's a resident. the place that i

reside in when i'm here. except for my -- except for a corporate name on the title. there's no way to trace it back to anybody. it is a house that receives no mail. has no bank account. nothing to it. and yet, it's a target of the community survey, for which i ignore. i take it to my staff and they send it to the census borough -- bureau and say it's silly. i wonder if you have to be random without looking and you use tools to determine the high likelihood of places that should be surveyed, just a thought. another thought. this is my third census and as i came in as the first census and the gentleman from california who

departed talked about, we inherited it from the clinton administration and it had differences. in 2010, under the bush err a we and then obama, he really inherited it from president bush who did most of the preparation work. what i will tell you, i saw little difference in the fact that the census bureau seemed surprised that ten years have passed. they always seem a little shocked that they didn't make it and then they start talking about funding for something they had ten years. so, here's a question from yours and my years in business. decades ago, when we were younger businessmen, companies closed for as much as a week to do their annual shut down and inventories. everyone except those counting went home. and that once a year inventory

was the way it was. that was before a great many advances both in statistical accuracy and in the ability to continuously monitor inventory. today, no sensible company ever has to shut down because they are continuously making sure their inventories are accurate. the constitution eenumerates a once a ten year accounting. but it could be changed if we decided that america would be better off with continuous accurate counting. a situation in which the census bureau, would be constantly doing its job. it would not be trying to do something once every ten years which seems to be -- simply because they only do it once every ten years. so, i would ask you to draw on the evolutions that you have seen over decades, in how we look at accounting for things and ask the question, on your watch, shouldn't we begin the process, even if it's

requires congressional action, to go to a continuous counting system to make it constitutional, but to make it much more accurate which today, with tools both in counting, and to be honest, with the modern computer accuracy of what we know and where we know it, couldn't we do the american people he or service that a better serve -- a better service? >> i have to confess, with just getting my arms around the existing process, i have not decided to change the whole thing. there's probably pluses and minuses to the idea of the continual survey. at some point i will try to give thought to it. as you correctly point out rks, that would take a constitutional amendment and that would be a big challenge in itself, to make a radical change in something so fundamental to the allocation of seats and

-- monies.of mon >> i would agree with you that if in fact, the count would be more accurate by the current system, it would require some action. the question is, when you certify. when the census bureau certifies what our population is and where it is in 2020, they will be doing so with the best efforts they can have. most of which will be done based on a once every ten year count. what i would say, if we look at what we should do for those coming in the decades and centuries to come, it begin now with some sort of effective study and it be based on the people behind you for the

beginning. and then a commission that would in fact check out of the feasibility, run the questions, create the question of could we have a higher confidence and could we have it every day, and of every month of every year rather than the estimates today which we rely on the estimates during the interim period, why are they not as accurate or more accurate than the ones every ten years. so i plant it for you, because your real legacy can only be affected slightly what you do from the time you take over to the time we have our census. you have a short period of time and most of the time has expired. but, for 12 years from now, plus, there's a question of whether or not we could improve the system just as any of the portfolio of companies that you are familiar with, would never close for a week once a year, and think that's the best way to count inventory. >> i agree with your analogy of the private sector, but i think

it would be a large undertaking to continually know the pluses and minuses of the thing. it would require additional congressional appropriation. i don't want to divert any of the census people from the task at hand. it's a heavy enough lift the way it is. so to take some of them off that job, and think about a possible alternative, i really don't think is in the public's interest. that would have to be the separate appropriation. >> thank you mr. secretary. thank you mr. chairman. >> yes, sir, thank you, mr. secretary. we have one more member to go, i will go last. course i think we heard that the census is constitutionally significant. and the

important for the democratic republic. counting people. you lastarned from week's the link between cost and compliance. numbers going down, cost is going up. i don't remember a lot from my childhood as it was a long time ago. i remember the seriousness with which my parents took the census. it was almost a form of public service. it was important. if you accept the belief that most of citizens would like to help, particularly in an area that is constitutionally significant and important, fundamental to our form of government. what are the impediments to compliance? of do we reverse the trend fellow citizens not voluntarily complying?

speculate,can only but i will give you a couple of thoughts on it. i think the fabric of the relationship between the public and the government has been deteriorating. i think the last public confidence in public it -- in government than in a long time. i think that is one of the problems. i think a second problem is there is so much input that comes into everyone. whether it is on the social media or simply conventional media. i think everybody is overdosed on information flow, junk mail, the whole thing. clutter isormation the separate problem. problemsone of the even with the call center.

a lots of people don't like to get incoming calls from strangers for whatever reason. even though i've been in government only a short time, i get these robo calls on my official government cell phone. if we want to get response rates improved, we have to get rid of a lot of the intrusions that people find in the normal course. i probably get two or three junk calls a day on my official government cell phone. >> we could switch that number, and i am happy to help you there. maybe it won't help. i think you put your finger on something, the disconnect between the citizenry and the government.

to lack of trust that leads the next two areas. i don't think people mind answering questions where they seek the residence -- see the relevance. how many people live in your is direct to proportion of goods and services. the more questions you ask, the lower the compliance rate is. use the word counterintuitive, and i think it's not counterintuitive. the longer something takes me, the less likely and am to do it, the less -- the more intrusive i and there are two things. i don't want to dwell on the community survey. it is not lost on me. american citizens can reject a jury trial. they can reject a lawyer. they can refuse to talk to the government. they can refuse to vote.

that surprising to me little line on the bottom of the community survey that you can be punished for failing to tell the government how many bathrooms you have and what kind of fixtures you have. that that you and i degree the disconnect between the citizenry and the government is one of the reasons we have a low compliance rate, i would encourage you to be very judicious about what questions government does ask. two other points. then we are done. cost matters. , period.s . new paragraph. if you are able to convince our fellow services -- citizens that they are going to get an a plus product, they won't be happy about the extra cost, but if

they can get an a plus product, that's when you get the higher costs and the substandard product that feeds that disconnect. know you well. you are kind enough to come over last week. i don't know about your background or politics. i will tell you this. you come across as an authentic person. you come across as someone our fellow citizens would believe on an issue like this. i would encourage you to pair up with someone who has a different political ideology. find somebody on the other side. communicate to our fellow citizens, we get the disconnect. helpful to all of us as americans. not republicans or democrats or southerners. it would be helpful to us as americans to get that compliance number up. and it'ssave money more accurate. i'm not talking about an ad

bullygn, just use the pulpit of being a cabinet level official to reassure our fellow citizens that you want to do it the right way and you want it to be accurate. i think that's good advice and i will try very hard to use whatever bully pulpit calms to try to achieve that. everyone, i want to thank you, not just for today but also the grieving -- briefing the other day. we have another panel so we will recess and then allow the second panel to come forward. thank you on behalf of all of us. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> the house ways and means

committee rate -- begins its work on the republican tax plan today before sin it to the full house. watch coverage today starting at noon eastern. listen live using the free c-span radio app. on thursday, the senate arms committee held confirmation hearings for several defense department nominees. this is just under two hours.