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Understanding 9/11tv Space Exploration CSPAN November 10, 2017 10:38am-12:01pm EST
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america a cbs news vietnam war special report. >> whether it is due to the enemies tactics, the weather or terrain it seems clear that the american military offensive along the dmz has bogged down like the marines in the mu -- mud. at 6:00 on american artifacts we will tour the artifacts exhibit remembering vietnam and at 8:00 1967 presssidency in conference. >> made our statement to the world of what we would do if we had communist aggression in that part of the world in 1954. we said we would stand with those people in the face of common danger. the time came when we had to put up or shut up and we put up and we are there. >> watch the vietnam war, 50 or's later, this weekend on
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american history tv on c-span3. the house science and space committee held a hearing yesterday on the space launch ,ee it -- the space lots system helping exploration on the moon and mars. it is also planning on trips to the international space station. >> good morning. the subcommittee on space will come to order. i now recognize myself for five minutes of an opening statement. exploration means expanding our reach as humans.
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as a civilization and as a country, the ability of our nation to explore space is a strategic imperative. our ability to carry out the strategic: never will rely -- to carry out the strategical endeavor will let us push beyond low earth orbit, we must finish the override capsule in order to operate in deep space. we must update our ground infrastructure to support a rejuvenated and expanded agenda. long-term goal is laid out in the 2017 nasa transition authorization act, to extend human presence throughout the solar system. system in allch right and have strategic capabilities that will allow and enable humans and robots to accomplish this goal. sls and orion will enable u.s. astronauts to return to the moon
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for the first time since the regulus in 1972. in the inaugural meeting of the space council, "we will return american astronauts to the moon." not only to leave behind footprints and flags but to build a foundation that we need to send americans to mars and beyond. sls and orion are the tip of a spear that will lead that return. the commercial sector can contribute by supplying necessary services and providing augmenting capabilities. orion are irreplaceable strategic assets necessary for missions to the moon, mars and beyond. major laws that president trump signed it was the nasa transition authorization act of 2017. the bill, originating in this
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committee, directed nasa to stay the course with sls and orion. it also reaffirmed congressional and presidential direction for nasa to utilize a steppingstone approach. the exploration. allowing for a return to the moon, i wholeheartedly support the administration's call to return to the moon. this committee has received testimony that the moon is the appropriate next destination for our space program. does not to the moon have to mean delaying a mission to mars. on the contrary, it is a logical step that enables exploration of the red planet and beyond. while i am excited by the promise of how strategic assets will enable orion america to return to the moon, this committee has a responsibility to conduct oversight to ensure that these programs are successful. all three exploration system
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elements, sls, orion, and ground systems have experienced delays and overruns. this year has challenged the program. louisiana was hit by a tornado. in august, texas and florida were hit by hurricanes. a couple years ago, the vertical assembly facility foundation was not reinforced. this required a rebuild. this year complications with friction, resulted in poor wells on the core stage. all of this adds up. it appears as though the new issues with tornadoes and hurricanes and welding will cost nearly a year of delay. depending on whether the europeans deliver the service module on time for integration on orion, the delay may be greater. congress needs to understand where the program is today, what
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cost, schedule and performance deliverables can the agency commit to? what is the plan going forward? how will nasa manage future issues to ensure long-term program sustainability? we are not out of the woods yet on this program but we can see the edge of the forest. significant progress has been made. we are bending metal, writing software code and integrating hardware. given a program of this magnitude this is no small feat. particularly given the challenges that the program faced under the last administration. in order to meet our nations space exploration goals, it will take focus, discipline and continuity of efforts going forward. in congressration must not only provide leadership and direction but we must also appropriately fund and oversee the program. similarly, nasa and the contractors have to execute.
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failure to do so could have dire consequences for the program and there would be no one is to blame. the administration has demonstrated renewed support, congress assist -- congress consistently funds the program. congress andr the contractors to deliver. i'm grateful that our witnesses are here today to help us understand where we are with the program and how we plan to move forward and i look forward to your testimony. i now recognize the ranking member, the gentleman from california, for opening statement. >> thank you mr. chairman. good morning to our distinguished panel. hearing, and a great time for this hearing to get an update on the nasa exploration system development activities. nasa continues to progress but as the chairman points out there have been challenges beyond their control.
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elements, to key move humans beyond low earth orbit's and eventually send them to mars, construction of the space launch system, the orion vehicle is well underway. major components for exploration mission one, known as the m1 and em two are undergoing evocation and testing. 2017, nasa completed the welding of a liquid oxygen tank scheduled to be flown on em1. it was successfully powered up in august 2017 for the first time. on october 29, 2017 engineers conducted a test of a flight engine to be used on em2. nasa and industry partners have not undertaken a rocket development program of this scale for more than three decades.
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in addition to new hardware and infrastructure, this is also necessitated reestablishing capabilities needed for deep space exploration. contractors prime and 1000 suppliers spread across every state are part of the program. however a program of this size does not happen without challenges. the human space exploration program is facing several. including, having to maintain andfacturing, tests processing schedules as sls and orion are integrated. damageovery from tornado that the chairman mentioned, resolving first-time production issues and adjusting activities in response to appropriations funding. as the chairman pointed out, independent analysis have also
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identified concerns with nasa;s ability to complete launch dates. found that despite the old ryan and sls projects making progress, technical challenges continue to cause delays. gao characterized the planned launch date as precarious. part of what i hope to get out of the hearing today is a better understanding of what that clear plan and an updated launch date the opportunity to examine other important issues including reasons for the latest 1 and in launching em having confidence in the plan moving forward. indicators and milestones, congress should use for measuring progress made by both the sls, orion programs and
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establishing production capability. how we will return to the moon including establishing a human presence would impact the goal of sending humans to mars in 2030 as directed in the transition authorization act. in closing, mr. chairman, you have often heard me talk about, growing up in the middle of the space race, in california. the home of much of the apollo mission. and how that inspired me along with a generation of kids to think about the sciences and beyond. what we are talking about in terms of the systems we are developing today is a reestablishment of american leadership in the space program as we start to think about going back to the moon and going beyond into deep space. that does have the ability to inspire another generation of kids and reinvigorate our desire to explore our curiosity about the universe around us.
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one of those inspirational figures is with us today, dr. magnus has flown on the shuttle and lived on the international space station. we thank you for your service and appreciate you being a role model for millions of young people. i look forward to the testimony and i yield back. >> thank you, i couldn't agree more. now recognize chairman of the full committee, mr. smith. you mr. chairman and i appreciate your comments and the ranking member's comments as well. congress has supported nasa for years. we have showed our support in law and with funding from one administration to the next. years, afterse billions of dollars spent, we are facing more delays and cost overruns. recent hurricanes and tornadoes have damaged the szilagyi's and slowed -- have damaged facilities but many problems are self-inflicted.
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it is disappointing to hear about delays caused by poor execution in the u.s. taxpayer, and the u.s. taxpayer has invested so much. the last eight years congress has defended this system from attempts at cancellation and proposed budget cuts. funding for the explorations of system is now nearly $4 billion a year. the government accountability office reported last spring that the first launch of the sls likely will be delayed a year from late 2018 to late 2019. delays with the european service intoe could push this 2020. if this is the case, the schedule for the first launch with crew is also at risk. the nasa inspector general reported this week that the development of exploration systems is one of the most significant challenges facing nasa. he highlighted problems facing all components.
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sls and orion and ground systems. nasa and the contractors should not assume future delays and cost overruns will have no consequences. rise,ays continue, costs and foreseeable technical challenges arise, no one should assume the u.s. taxpayer or their representatives will tolerate this forever. alternatives to sls and orion would involve taxpayer funding and lead to further delays but the more setbacks for sls and orion, the more support builds for other options. exploiters and programs at nasa like the commercial crew program are also facing significant delays and challenges. suffered for decades from program cancellations that have delayed exploration goals. as the system's progress, from development to production, operation and maintenance nasa and contractors must bring down
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costs and guarantee deadlines are met. glad to see i was nasa issue a request for information last november in order to explore ways to reduce cost. fixed pricedm, contracts for production might be an appropriate path going forward but only if it benefits the taxpayer. congress needs to have conquered -- confidence in nasa and the contractors which i do not believe we have now. ebbingonfidence is and if it goes further nasa will have a hard time maintaining their credibility. i yield back. >> thank you, mr. chairman. now let me introduce our witnesses. ,ur first witness today associate administrator of human exploration and operations director at nasa. he began his nasa career in 1977
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performing aeronautical research and has managed the spacelike portfolio since 2011. ofreceived a bachelors science in aeronautical engineering from purdue university and a masters of science in mechanical engineering from the university of toledo. dr. sandrawitness, magnus, executive director at the american institute of aeronautics and astronautics. iaa,ddition to her role at a she is a former astronaut and worked as a practicing engineer in the aerospace industry. dr. magnus received a degree in physics as well as degree in electrical engineering, both from the missouri university of science and technology. she also has a phd from georgia tech and i now recognize the first witness for five minutes
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to present testimony. >> thank you. we are living in an amazing time in human space life. livings had crew members onboard the international space station for more than 17 years. most high school students today have only known a time when humans were living and working in space. we're using the space station to expose a broader community beyond the current space industry, the benefits of using microgravity as an environment to develop new systems and techniques for use on earth. these researchers have never seen the benefits of space to their products and processes. the space station is becoming a place for business to expand, grow, and gain competitive advantage over companies not doing research in space. having crews in space is now expected and business operating there will become normal. deliveryices for cargo for does go and is acquiring a
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third and certify new systems to transport systems and cruise to the iss. these companies are busy manufacturing and servicing their systems. they're helping to build a strong commercial space industry and it allows us to focus our efforts on deep space exploration. this brings us to the subject of today's hearing. exploration systems development. nasa space launch system rockets, the orion capsule with european service module and ground systems programs are undergoing manufacturing and certification in preparation for their first integrated flight. think about it. there are more human spaceflight hardware in production today than at any time in the united states since apollo. as a nation we are building three different crew vehicles, orion, star liner, and dragon. one for deep space and two for lower orbit. into this point was not easy and there are challenges ahead. however we need to pause and reflect on this amazing time.
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as we pursue human exploration further into the solar system, our exploration teams are building more than a rocket and spacecraft for single flight. we are building a flexible, sustainable system that will be used for decades to come. with this approach, we can in the -- we can enhance our ex-players and systems to a college a variety of missions in deep space. we are also building a system designed with modern manufacturing techniques for lower production costs than previous designs. the work performed in support of orion as applications to other programs. for example, hundreds of requests for information have been transferred from orion to the commercial spacecraft for lower earth orbit. the work on self reaction friction welding will have application beyond sls to other launch vehicles in development. it is the proper role of government to develop capabilities for use i all.
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-- for use by all. structural test article, one flown during exploration flight, and the current flight article have all been built for orion. four major tests have been completed. the structural testing is fully completed, the vertical assembly building at ksc is complete. the launchpad is near completion. all 25 engines and controllers are ready for flight. 17 parachute development tests are complete. four qualification parachute tests are complete with four more open. the data from these tests are helping our commercial partners with their tests also. the amount of work completed today for the deep space exploration systems is large and documented in my written testimony. further, this government investment in sls and orion is benefiting all. we need to be careful and not focus on a single launch date projection but rather take time
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to examine the quality, quantity and future benefit of the work completed. this deeper examination will reveal the value of the work completed to the nation. nasa has carefully reviewed the work remaining to launch including, while this review shows a launch date of june, 2020 as possible, the agency has gone to an earlier launch. this earlier date is reasonable and challenges teams to stay focused on tasks without creating undue pressure. nasa is taking additional steps to reduce scheduling risks for both known and unknown issues. earliestct for the possible launch day, the cost the 50%remain within limit for sls and are slightly above for ground systems operations. two, is notmission adversely impacted by the em1 schedule and the work completed
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shows outstanding progress. andlcome your questions thank you for this opportunity to discuss the amazing work accomplished by the men and women of nasa and their contractor partner teams. thank you. >> thank you. development of the crew vehicle are major developments, and i will not understate their and sprint. -- their importance. of what is possible in space has been in transition over the last decade. i use a model to disguise -- describe the ecosystem. i refer you to the figure on the monitors and imagine a balloon centered on the earth slowly
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expanding. that service represents the expansion of human activity. the apollo area, the surface of that bubble has expanded only to lower earth orbit. the government was the driving force behind the expansion of human activity in space, and this has led to an accumulation of experience, technology, and monitoring -- management operations in this environment. now private industry is interested in engaging many more actively in this space. as commercial activities mature, it creates a foundation upon the initial phase can expand beyond low earth or. for the future, expansion will be driven by government goals and investment. investment,ncreased nasa and the government are free to develop beyond.
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at the core of the lamenting this model are questions. what are the technologies, knowledge, and experience the government wants to have available for broad dissemination to industry 50 years from now, and what are the capabilities and services that the government and private are interested in developing that can potentially sustain viable space-based businesses after leveraging initial investment? concept isonant -- the fact there is a need for government investment at the leading edge of expiration during the initial phase, and the fact that industry will sooner or later reap the benefit to create an established business ventures, and i might comment, we are not ready for the development phase, but you see that happening over the last decade in the salad light industry, where there are in this pendant spheres and the government in the customer, but
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the government does its own thing for its own purposes. you can add that with a twist to human spaceflight. this is the dynamic that is an is unfolding. if it is placed jerseys -- employed strategically, this brings me to the important point, and i do not think you disagree the united states needs a comprehensive national space strategy. -- it isparents to imperative that it is the nays -- nature of the space business to make advancements. the space council provides an opportunity. it is not enough to ensure the success of the program. sufficient resources need to be allocated. this is something that has challenged nasa in the past and continues. when i joined the agency, nasa received 7/10 of a penny for
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every tax dollar. of a they receive .5 penny for every tax dollar. nasa is constrained by limited control. it has limited freedom to adjust weather size or skill set, and in some kay's the management of tasks around the agency. graham in a long-term a constrained environment, nasa must begin and the ability to take actions. equally important to the resources is the stability of those resources. developing hardware is complex. a program with a multi-year phase budget can absorb more decisions resulting in lower operational costs. the current budgeting process and lack of a stable budgetary environments prohibits this to
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be used. the transition occurring in how humans engage in space has been a goal for decades. our nation was built upon exploration and economic development. from the arrival of the first in appearance to the westward expansion, across the continent we have faced the challenges, and overcome obstacles. as we expand into the space, i am confident we can tap into the makes -- the same spirit. thank you for the opportunity to address this on become thank you for your continued support of our nation's graham. i look forward to injury any questions. >> thank you. i appreciate the witnesses' testimony. the chair recognizes himself or five minutes for questions. and i want to thank you both. i was running a little late this morning, did not have a chance to see you before the hearing started. we appreciate you. one of the primary purposes of the nasa transition authorization act of 2017 was
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continuity of purpose, and expressing the importance of staying the course, so as to not delay america's space exploration any longer. can each of you discussed the importance of continuity a portion -- of importance and how you balance that against good program management and disciplined. -- discipline. mr. gerstenmaier: it is important we had a common vision of what we are doing as we move forward so we can build the hardware and systems that can support that vision. we have done that with sls and orion. we have built a system that allows us to move human presence into the solar system. the castle has applications for around the moon, and support lunar activities. it can also support of element beyond the earth-moon system. the sls rocket is designed to be a heavy lift launch capability that's a comport the human mission around the moon, and is
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critical for needed mars have in , also mission such as the europa mission. it can reduce transit time 50% to the outer planets. key infrastructure that allows us to fit within this architecture and framework we have been given. keeping a constancy of purpose origin or direction, we are moving forward, it is extremely important to us. starting at solving is difficult. chairman babin: ok. dr. magnus? dr. magnus: i would like to echo that. starting and stopping in our industry is not healthy. we saw that in the shuttle program when we lost a lot of our corporate knowledge. we've already learned. the continuity pieces apart. we have a little bit of a short attention span and we end up hurting ourselves. there were programs that we have seen nasa have to cancel over
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the years. if you look in the apollo era, the dedication a had over a decade to commit to that program. that is what you need in human spaceflight. you need a 20-year program and need to be able to sick to it. it is exciting the committee is interested. i think the oversight is important to keep people focused. i think that is an important key. it takes the whole community. to the be able to stick program and you have to be able to fund it appropriately so the intelligent decisions can be made. chairman babin: thank you very much. how well a delay in the first uncrewed a n space launch system impact this? nasa's internal date is managing, as well as a date it
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is formally committing to. do either of these dates now change? mr. gerstenmaier: our first crewed mission, so far the schedule delay, even if the expiration mission 1 went to june, it does not impact where we are with em2. there is a constraint that the mobile launch platform in florida needs to be modified between the first flight in the second flight to allow for the exploration of the upper stage, and there is an amount of time needed for that upgrade of that mobile launcher. em2t is what keeps em1 and 3 tied together, but right now the slips we see do not impact the first crewed flight. we need to potentially discuss whether it is and that he just have another mobile launcher available to avoid that time between the two. that is the current time.
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chairman babin: dr. magnus, do you have anything to add? ok. how will a slip in the first launch of the space launch system impact the cost of the program? it is pricing to some that the overall cost has not changed -- because what we have done is built more than one single flock. -- flight. as work is completed on the first flight, that work can be set off to the side and the teams can start working on the next element. pieces ofday multiple hardware in flow for the multiple missions across the sequence. chairman babin: ok. six seconds. how will a delay in first uncrewed launch impact a potential launch for the europa mission? mr. gerstenmaier: there is no impact. we can support whatever the science director needs to figure
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out whether it occurs after the first flight or after the second flight to meet their needs. chairman babin: ok. we are going to go on to the gentleman from california, mr. bera. representative bera: in your opening statement you talked about the importance of having a strategic vision over the long time, and we saw that when president kennedy challenged us in the 1960's to put on a man on the moon in the second -- my colleague from colorado has 033.thing that says mars 2 we ought to commit to putting a woman on mars by 2033. it does give the public a sense of what we are working towards. and in that perspective, as we are thinking about sls and orion, the lunar mission, given
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about it. you if we go to the moon, how does that thin help us think about tt next that? in thinking about em1 in the context of going to deeper wece, i am sensing that as deal with the em1 mission, we are learning a lot, reestablishing supply chains, reestablishing the workforce and a town'-- and a talent base that will make em2 easier. mr. gerstenmaier: to make sure they are really operating to the levels that they need to be when we put crew on board. as you see this move outward, we go to the moon where we can return if something goes wrong in several days. on the station today, we can be back in an hour or an hour and a half.
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if mars, we are committed for multiple months. you see that natural progression taking more risk, learning to operate in a more challenging environment, and as you operate there, you need systems that could support operating in that environment so it is a natural stepping stone and movement as we use the moon as a proving ground in a training ground, an area where we can build , procedures,cesses ed hartwell that allows us to do the mars-class missions in the future. representative bera: and as we move on to em2, are we also thinking about em3? mr. gerstenmaier: yes. ingenuity tolding challenge what we can do, the big advantage of the space launch system is we cannot only carry crew, but substantial cargo with the crew, so we can carry a habitation peace with us and the crew can go into that habitation module and begin
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a attended presence around the the tieich is breaking back to the home planet and getting us ready to move into deep space. you can see the progression or each mission built on the past mission and we take stronger andlenges to push the team, what we learn from this earlier mission feeds to the next mission. on thentative bera: slide that you presented, dr. magnus, you showed the commercial sector following behind. seed you describe how you the private and international behind asfollowing the government starts to push further and further, how the private sector and international community can support that? dr. magnus: that goes back to a national strategy. you want to figure out what are the capabilities you want to invest in from a government
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viewpointgovernment so those knowledges and pieces technology are available for everybody. from a national viewpoint as well when you think about the international peace, what are those capabilities that as a country we want to take the lead in? do we want to be transport exports? canada has decided to focus on robotics. understanding those priorities, you can establish how you want to bring international partners in and how you want to help companies establish the leverage they need to build their businesses. you have to start with that big picture that has to be more governmentwide and nationally focus. representative bera: in prior hearings, when we have thought iout it return to the moon, can visualize a day where nasa is focused on the science mission.
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they may look at the various launch vehicles that are available in the commercial market as opposed to having to build their own vehicle. so they will contract with company x for a launch vehicle. you look at various lunar landing vehicles, we will contract with discovery for a landing vehicle. is that the right way to the about this? dr. magnus: yeah. if i may, you think about having a toolbox in your house. the satellite business as a model, there are economic activities going on where the government purchases services and there are at committees for the government as well. there is a mix, and has to be governed by what is the true she could view of the country and what capabilities do you want to have going forward. you have to think of it from that big picture. there is a place for all of it in that right strategy. chairman babin: thank you.
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i would like to recognize the general and from alabama, mr. brooks. representative brooks: the production of the core stage element is driving the speech launch system program schedule. the program is combining welding techniques and materials, specifically, the thickness of the metal that has not been used before. while establishing new production text links -- techniques is laudable, the program has developed setbacks and is developing these process and correcting defects. how confident is the program in its contractors that they will have gained enough knowledge to delay the setbacks and delays for future fight hardware? mr. gerstenmaier: we have met the challenges of self-reactive welding of the thicker materials. we understand now how to do that. to findcontinue to the welding techniques. the basic pieces in place now, we know how to do the welding.
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that is important to the industry as a whole. nasa paved the way by allowing others to use the same techniques in the larger thickness of materials. representative brooks: what steps does the program and contractor have in place to avoid mistakes such as welding tool changes that shut down production? mr. gerstenmaier: we are monitoring all that activity. we are looking at ways we can do inspection. we knew fairly soon and immediately there was a problem with our welding when it occurred. so the good news was we had tools and techniques in place to find the defects to prevent that from extending into the flight hardware. that was good. the bad thing is we did not understand we had done smaller samples, we had done smaller noting tests, but we have done any of the magnitude or scale of which we are tried to do with a full vehicle. we need to be prepared as we build schedules going forward to know these first-time things that we have never done before
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of a magnitude that has never been done before they need extra time that first time through and not be overly optimistic in our schedules. we will build in some time to do those kinds of things to make sure we do not have the same kind of problem moving forward. we have identified as areas in the future where we see these first-time items. we will put in place procedures to prevent what occurred in the past it representative brooks: the core stage element, currently driving the sls program schedule still has to complete a major integrated test fire, the green test run. the green test run will have the core state integrated with its four main engines. the tanks will be filled with cryogenic fuel for the first time, and it will be fired for about 500 seconds. the engines have been tested individually, but not all together, which crates a different heat, acoustic, and environment. this will be a first for the core stage. what areas caused the most concern during this test,
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cryogenic fuel piping, leaks, material stresses, etc.? mr. gerstenmaier: the teams are analyzing that test in all its detail to make sure we are prepared for that test. one thing we learned out of this last dental problems, we will have a dedicated person and a team that will look at that test to make sure we have accommodated and taken into account everything that occurred during the test. the concerns are when the rocket is designed to come off the is not designed to stay in one location for the entire firing. it could be some heat that builds back into the systems. we have been analyzing that in wind tunnels. we have done extensive work on the test stand to look at modeling and testing of how we do the fluid flows. we have looked at procedures, so we bring in tankers to bring in the liquid hydrogen and oxygen for the test in the most efficient manner. we have protected for slips and schedules.
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we see that test after the core stage gets delivered to stennis is one of the core risks. we will be prepared for that when it occurs. representative brooks: what potential damage are you testing for the might occurred during a nominal test of this nature, such as insulation damage, internal harnesses, boxes coming loose? what he looking for? mr. gerstenmaier: are you just described. the biggest things we're looking for is thermal and what needs to be prepared. we will have procedures in place to do those repairs. we will have alternate techniques to fix things if they occur during the testing. we are actively working that area and we will have detailed test lands and detailed -- plans and detailed mitigations. representative brooks: thank you. ideal back. chairman babin: thank you. next, the gentleman from virginia, mr. beyer. representative beyer: thank you. days, a's -- in two
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flight will occur at the wallace -- waltz fight facility. i am proud of the role virginia has played in supporting that and the iss from wallops. the only launch site that supports the station, and it has supported national security missions, including a mission next year. launchnth and emerging in vector space announced three launches will occur at wallops next year. we had an accident there a couple years ago. virginia has put money into the spaceport. it has been a unique successful partnership. as we look at a future space
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operation, will you discuss how wallops can continue to nasa's planning and operations? mr. gerstenmaier: we see wallops playing a key role in cargo delivery. it is interesting to see how the orbital team is using that cargo vehicle in creative ways. it completes its delivery mission. then the vehicle can come off the space station and do another mission for its own uses afterwards. we have looked at combustion experiments onboard the space station or on board the sickness vehicle to understand what fire suppression should be. exciting to see the team using creative ways to understand post-mission. i think we will continue to see a large number of launches out of virginia supporting that activity and growing in that
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area. we notice the control center has been upgraded. you will also other things that of the done in the times between the flights. dr.esentative beyer: magnus, in your testimony, you wrote the united states needs a comprehensive national space strategy a company by continuous long-term commitment for its execution. do we not have that already? and where are the holes? dr. magnus: i think some of the holes came out during the national space council meeting. nasa has a comprehensive strategy for how they want to continue doing expiration, that initial phase of the bubble, and they have been working with private sector and the development stage so done little stage and the middle stage, but there is a lot of work that is being done with the strict licensing. there is discussion about laws.
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so there is all caps of other pieces when you think about what you have to do to develop a healthy economy or a stable economy or help one get off the ground. it is not just about the rockets and habitats. there is legal frameworks, regulations, things like this. then you also have to fold in the piece of what we want from our international corporation, how do we want to help the innovations succeed, how do we want to make sure that the government is focused on its mission? it is not clear to me all these pieces have been brought together conference away. one of theive beyer: ongoing debates that we hear on shouldce subcommittee is we go directly to mars or do we go to the moon first and use that as a launching part for mars? and such a program would lead to the return of humans to the
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moon. is it decided that we go to the moon first? mr. gerstenmaier: as we described the stepping stone approach, where we use the moon as a training ground is a good approach, and that is consistent with the language we received and the direction from congress and the administration. it is a stepping stone approach where we use the moon to learn things, skills, things to help us advance. also we are moving human presence into the solar system with the ultimate goal toward mars. representative beyer: dr. magnus, i want to quote, the current budgeting process, fueling the regular use of continuing resolutions, the threat of shutdowns, the lack of a stable environment, prohibits this kind of trade space to be used. i want to say amen. thank you for putting that in writing. everyone agrees with you. ideal back. chairman babin: thank you. i recognize the general and from
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florida, mr. posey. representative posey: thank you for calling this meeting, and i want to thank the witnesses, both of you. it is always a pleasure to hear from you and get your insights. mr. gerstenmaier, would you say reaching mars is the top priority right now? mr. gerstenmaier: the way i described it is moving human presence in the solar system, but it is one of the stepping stone approaches as we move the human presence into the solar system. representative posey: as a prior ity basis, how would you prioritize things? mr. gerstenmaier: we need to be careful. i do not talk about destinations. i talk about the expanding bubble that sandy described where we move out into the solar system and we bring the commercial sector, the economy with us as we move.
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i am looking for a much longer strategic vision that a particular single destination, and i see this as a continuum of getting the skills we need to have as we move forward or into the solar system. representative posey: i appreciated you hearing the word hearing you use the word stepping stone. athink congress has expressed much everything you do in space to be a stepping stone to mars, so that ought to be a goal, and you and i know that if everything is a priority, nothing is a priority. i would like to hear it acknowledged that reaching mars is a top priority, and everything we do is a stepping stone to reaching that goal. for a number of reasons. you are familiar with buzz aldrin's program. he is my constituent. and i hear about that plan frugally. -- frugally. you take a moment to share with me what the plan that you are
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pursuing is superior to the plan he suggests? mr. gerstenmaier: i think in our world we often like to contrast things and show how they are different and we try to pick one or the other. if you look at the approach we laid out where we have potentially some kind of crew-tended platform around the moon and we use that as a staging platform to go to mars, the has similarities to the talksts that mr. aldrin about. we are using the moon in a high elliptical as a staging position to go to mars rather than returning to the earth. there is pieces of what he describes in our plan, maybe not as much as he would like. he would like to have the pure plan the way he describes it with a large cycler in place. we looked to the community to get good ideas from everyone. we look to academia, from the our apollo astronauts, from the
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industry. we want to take all those great ideas and put them together and build this plan we have been describing to keep us moving forward. i do not see it as one or the other. i'm not saying our plan is superior to his or vice versa. there is advantages and disadvantages to both. us a hybrid is the best solution for us. representative posey: that is a good answer, and i assume funding approvals pays a big part of that. mr. gerstenmaier: definitely. we are constrained by the financial environment. we are given the adequate resources we need to do what we do, but we need to reflect that in our planning, that we do not build a program that requires more funding that is reasonable. representative posey: dr. magnus? dr. magnus: i would like to comment we have to quit talking about either the moon or mars because, as bill mentioned, it
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is an and. if we are really thinking carefully about how we are moving that -- representative posey: i think everyone in this here understands -- in this room understands, that we want to go to mars as a launching area. at one time there was quite a bit of opposition to it, and people who were opposed it, said, been there, done that, have pretty much a knowledge that to go further is the smartest way to do it. dr. magnus: and if we can do it in a way where we bring industry behind us, they can expand that the relevant phase out to the moon. the government continues to go charge.and leave that there is a smart way to do this where we pastor the moon, you do the things you need to do to continue to build your capability to go to mars. the government keeps expanding to mars, and you bring that economic system behind you so it is stable and provides the additional capability continue
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that. there is a way to do this. representative posey: thank you. my time is up. chairman babin: thank you. yeah, the dominant from colorado, mr. perlmutter. representative perlmutter: i will put up my prop for one second. to be parochial, in three or four days from vandenberg air force base, we will launch the j pss, which that satellite was colorado on a rock that was also built in colorado. each of us from an economic point of view, but also from a point of view of pride has a stake in our space program, period. and all of us of our pretty much on the same page when it comes to getting this to mars. i do not how we get there. just get there. by 2033, if not a lot earlier.
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my job, whether it is a stepping stone to the moon or we use a hyperloop or somehow summit he comes up with beaming us over to mars, i just want our astronauts on mars. are the main vehicle we have to do this now. and mr. gerstenmaier, you heard me talk about this, and obviously our job appear is to get you the funding so you can have that constancy of purpose on a 16-year project. and we do not have that yet. and it is our responsibility to do that. but for me, i am a results-oriented guy. i do not know what the best engineering and best science and exactly how to do that. that his responsibility. i got a find you the resources so you can do that.
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others appear are more sort of accountant types and want to make sure we hit our benchmarks and the milestones, as do you. your engineers -- that is how you guys operate. that some feel we are already missing kind of a milestone early in the 16-year journey is something i think we all have to take seriously. but her response ability as members of congress are to provide you the resources to get this done. that me just ask a couple of just basic questions. in sort of developing this program, how do you see us adding international partners? has there been any discussion with other countries about partnering with us in a major project like this? mr. gerstenmaier? mr. gerstenmaier: there has been quite a bit of work discussed
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with the overall framework. there is a global exploration roadmap that will be published next january that provides a framework for moving forward, which is consistent with everything we are building. they see sls, orion as part of that framework. the activities around the moon where we talk about a crew cut into the activity around the moon, the international partners are interested as well as commercial industry. we are working with the ministry -- with commercial industry and with international partners. this is a team activity. we have a space launch system that can take 45 metric tons to the moon. but then we had commercial -- have commercial vehicles. the sls does not have to be every flight to the moon. united launch stuff, what is being done i falcon, with origin, those can all be used
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with this architecture. the have a drop test on the 14th of this month to look at their vehicle coming back. all that fits together as part of this interactive framework. i have seen interest from all partners and seeing how they can be part of this endeavor. dr.esentative perlmutter: magnus, in your position at the association, what are you seeing in terms of the willingness by l asprivate sector as wel you are doing outreach to other countries, how do you see us holding a team that will get us to mars? dr. magnus: there's a huge amount of interest to participate. there is a lot of small countries that are engaging in space that never existed before. companiesestablished who are taking innovative approaches how they want to engage. a lot of energy, great ideas out there.
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i have no doubt we can do it. they look toly, us. our international partners look to us to provide the vision and notenergy and the drive, necessarily to be the dictators and direct everybody what to do, but bill mentioned the roadmap. there is a lot of enthusiasm to have the united states -- this is great, you got this vision, a all want to take apart -- part of it. we can do it if we can keep constancy of purpose. representative perlmutter: and it says we can do this. thank you. i yield back. chairman babin: thank you. now i recognize the german from florida, dr. dunn. it isentative dunn: always interesting to listen to the intelligent people you bring to these hearings. i have a thousand questions in five minutes. i will jump right in. i background is a surgeon, so will ask a lot of questions about life science. what are the special risks or
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are there special risks in deep space missions that differ from long duration low earth orbit missions? mr. gerstenmaier: the biggest risk that occurs is the risk to radiation and radiation exposure in deep space. around the earth we are shielded from some of the reason -- radiation why the magnetosphere. that shielding is gone. we will have to look at techniques that shield the crews. it is not an insurmountable problem, but a problem that we need to address that we cannot look at as easily around the earth as we would like. so you areive dunn: opening up new research in life science for these space missions. that is exciting. some of that can translate to earth.
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so any things we learned from the kelly 20 past one twiniments -- astronaut experiments? mr. gerstenmaier: we believe it is microgravity that is causing changes. can differentiate between radiation and microgravity changes, and why certain genes regulate when exposed to microgravity, that is a fascinating research subject. we would have to bring researchers here that are better versed than myself. they could explain what they are seeing, and it is opening up a of question. this is how science advances. the new questioning, it calls into question your basic theory, and then the basic theory changes, and now you would about a new way to solve a problem
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or do something in the future. this is an exciting phase. representative perlmutter: we look forward to hearing from that side of your shop. there are some interesting design modification for deep space missions. what are you doing without orion capsule to make that more habitable? mr. gerstenmaier: one big thing is the radiation environment. we look at potential sheathing. when we took orion on the flight test, we flew radiation sensors honest, and when we take it on expiration mission 1, it will also fly sensors. it will fly a mockup of the human torso, and embedded will to simulate the various organs inside the human, and we will look at a radiation protection best on expiration mission 1 to see if that provides protection. i think there will be some type of storm shelter or radiation shelter design into our future vehicle. representative perlmutter: talking about changes of dna,
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are there animal experiments on manned mars missions? mr. gerstenmaier: we do not have any on the first mission. we have the instrumentation and the hardware. we could look at that. we do not have the life-support system there, so we would have to put some kind of life support system to accommodate some animals. we are doing some significant animal research on the space station. have all the models -- representative perlmutter: tissue cultures. dr. magnus, can you comment on this? dr. magnus: no. i was on the space station for 4 1/2 months and i felt that the exercise recalls were sufficient. representative perlmutter: no loss of bone density?
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dr. magnus: no. about what learning can happen in a radiation environment. the ability to do work around the moon will inform us more about what we do not know. and as bill mentioned, give us to inquire make sure we have our bases covered before we go to mars. representative perlmutter: you have an interested committee here, so keep us in your thoughts and keep us informed. thank you very much. i yield back. chairman babin: thank you. good questions. i recognize the general month from california, mr. laura bacher. rohrabacher. representative rohrabacher: thank you. i will go back and look at the testimony we have had so far. i'm on the foreign affairs committee as well as the science committee, and i am very interested now on our next major
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step into space as to what we goalt as an international and not just an american goal, meaning we are talking about going to the moon and establishing a long-term presence on the moon. in the space station we have people from other countries and other countries have partnered with us. are we planning anything like that for our moon present? yes we are,aier: and in fact as we discussed earlier, the service module that provides the propulsion and the for the orionases capsule come from the european space agency, and that is being manufactured by them, and this is their contribution in a real way to the first steps in expiration. representative rohrabacher: and do we -- does the administration
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have any plans on this that we need to know about? mr. gerstenmaier: i do not know. the 45-day report action that came out of the space council. we continue to work on that and see refined details. there has been general agreement that international support is a good thing for deep space and we will continue to build off what we have done with the space station and look for ways we can continue that harsher toward the moon and mars. representative rohrabacher: i would hope so. when i got here, we have both been around a long time, and i vote was very my instrumental in the space station. the had switched my vote, station would not have moved forward. i am actually very pleased with how that turned out and how my
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vote made a positive difference. i would hope that we have a plan that is a little bit more detailed in terms of the moon and what we're planning to do now that we have made that decision because up until now we have had a great deal of debate as to whether we are going to go right on to mars, and now i think that we have reached a consensus that the ion is the step to mars, would hope that we get a little it more details exactly what we are planning to have on the moon, what type of cooperation there, if it is an how muchonal effort, cooperation we can expect him and how much money it will cost specificgress the goals we have in our mars but in a moon
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mission now. we have anmaier: expiration report that is due to congress in december, and in that report we will start to show you some of the specifics of the kind of questions and agreements and how we will do some of these things international report when you see it in december. representative rohrabacher: thank you very much, mr. chairman. chairman babin: thank you. now i would like to recognize the gentleman from louisiana, mr. higgins. representative higgins: thank you, mr. chairman. i very much appears she your appearance before the committee today. where all united in the enthusiasm for moving this program forward. we all have many questions and very little time. i represent louisiana. ichaux facility has developed a process. could you explain that please for me. mr. gerstenmaier: there is a
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large facility, the largest in the world, that welds our large tanks, the hydrogen and the oxygen tank for the space launch system. the way the welds are, that two plates of aluminum are together, and then there is a spinning rod, and instead of having it will behind it that holds the two plates, together the pin itself goes through and spins and fuses the two sheets together. it is different than fusion welding. molds and puts those two pieces of structure together. representative higgins: and this provides a strong weld and allows you to use new, thinner that allows them
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to be sufficient and strong, stronger than in the past, and yet lighter, is that correct? it providesaier: superior weld performance and the fact that the effects -- that the defects are actively less and allows the components to be put together in a stronger manner than through another -- representative higgins: thank you, and let me jump forward to manned presence on the moon, a stepping stone to mars. , lunarnding sites landing sites been discussed and determined? mr. gerstenmaier: from a robotic standpoint, what we are interested in now if you look at the apollo missions, list of those missions were equatorial, around the equator. we see potential water or at least water in the north and south: the moon. it could be very important to us as we think about moving forward. if we do not have to carry all
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andresources with us we could get water from noon, that would be interesting to us. we some permanently shadowed regions that we would like to investigate first robotically and then potentially if it makes sense with humans in those areas. as soon as we can understand how that water is held in the lunar regolith, that could be important to a market and how we use that and how we move our presence into the solar system. representative higgins: regarding shelter for human presence on the moon for extended expiration and extended periods of time on the moon's service, one of the major challenges is developing protected areas where the astronauts could stay. last month the japan aerospace exploration agency discovered a large and stable lava tube
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beneath the surface, approximately 300 feet 8, 200 feet wide, accessible by what they were fuhrer to as skylights accessible by what they say were skylights. is this possible regarding human habitation? mr. gerstenmaier: it is something to be considered, because if you can take advantage of the radiation shielding provided by the regolith, you can have a location you could go into storm shelters, that could be interesting. we need to continue to keep looking at that and see how that fits. representative higgins: and this could be done robotically. mr. gerstenmaier: yes. we talked sometimes about having a crew-tended to ability around the moon in orbit. could use astronauts on board this gateway concept we are talked about to command rovers
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to try into these tubes, understand what is available prior to committing humans. representative higgins: and one more thing regarding these underground caverns. gravity ofthe low the moon, it has been stated by scientists that these tubes could be as large as to rank or three --two or three miles in diameter. do your studies concur? mr. gerstenmaier: i would have to research that or ask someone. representative higgins: thank you for your response. if that information becomes available, thank you for your continued research, could you possibly provide that to this committee? mr. gerstenmaier: yes, we will. representative higgins: i yield back. chairman babin: we will take one minute apiece. i want to go quickly. ewednt slip in the uncr
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launch seems to be due to many factors. what impact will a delay in delivery of the orion service module by the europeans have on december 2019 date? tot tools does nasa have make sure that the service module does not lead to further delays? we are working with the space agency. they have extra funding to be prepared. we know there are some helium thousand and are manufactured in the united states for the europeans. we know those valves are having trouble manufactured. we have set some of our people to the plant to help with that activity, to help mitigate that concern. vowave a nasa design for a that we may provide for that application. toky martin has got approval send technicians to europe to
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assist with the manufacturing of the european service module. we are doing everything we can. the current service module delivery date is supposed to be april of next year. we are likely to see that schedule slip a little bit, they be to may or june. then we look at what we can do to help that downstream. topight do a simulator on of the sls when it goes to testing to do a incident having the orion and the european service module on top. but we are aware of that. that is one of our key risk areas. we are doing everything we can, but it is this first-time manufacturing that is causing us the problems. chairman babin: a great concern. they give. -- thank you very much. representative bera: one of the exciting parts is we are looking at new propulsion systems as well and one that we of talked about is solar electric propulsion as part of that orion.
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could either one of you talk about the importance of why solar electric propulsion is important, as we want to go into deeper space? mr. gerstenmaier: i can start and sandy can help. the big advantage is is in terms of efficiency and the amount of propellant that needs to be there to move things from it is very efficient to move large masses throughout the solar system. thisu can move if we have crew have intended facility around the moon, it can be in one orbit and we can go to different orbits. it takes a long time to do that. if the crew is not in orbit or with the vehicle, a can move. and allows us to move large masses throughout the solar system, and that is the advantage to us in the architecture. dr. magnus: i would add in the context of our discussions that were more strategic, because nasa's developing the system, it will be technology available for
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everyone to use. it is one of those feeders that will allow our economy to advance and other companies to take advantage of that kind of capability. mr. gerstenmaier: we recently awarded some study contracts to typical communication satellite manufacturers to see if they would have interest in using as a next duration of electric question -- propulsion thrusters. we might be enabling the commercial mceachin satellite industry to get a jump over competitors by advancing the state of the art in electric propulsion and power generation beyond what they are today. so they gain from what we are time to do and we get a capability we can use around the moon for our needs. this is a win-win between industry and us. i think mr. gore backer has one. abacher has one.
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representative rohrabacher: i talked before about international cooperation. is there anything as part of the plan for the this extended moon presence we're talking about now that would include the private now, 20,nd we know 30 years ago we do not have these private companies making their contribution. do we expect there to be a private involvement and commercial involvement in a way that will help bring down the cost as well? mr. gerstenmaier: we have next step announcements where we are working with five companies to look at habitation capability around the moon, and we are engaged with them. they are interested in what they and then they, may have applications for that in lower earth or birth as a follow-on to the space station. we are involved with them. as i described earlier, sls can
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carry large mast to the vicinity of the moon along with crew, but we will use expendable launch vehicles with vehicles coming online. the falcon, the falcon nine, united launch alliance, all those will be used. as we look to this whole sweep of launch capabilities and commercial capabilities and how we build a plan that involves of them, so like you described, we do the best of international, bessette commercial, we put it in a plan to move forward. representative rohrabacher: that is traffic, and thank you for that answer. and maybe -- may have a play in that as well. mr. gerstenmaier: he is one of the participants. chairman babin: thank you. i want to thank the witnesses for this very interesting hearing and your valuable test mother. i want to thank all the members
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for their questions. the record will remain open for two weeks for additional comments and written questions of the members, so with this, the hearing is adjourned. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2017] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]
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>> way to the national archives and washington, d.c. for a discussion about the vietnam war as the archives to get stuff new exhibit, remembering vietnam. we will be hearing from amy hock, author of the book "six years in the hanoi
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