one, two, and three. all right, hold that. one more. one, two, three. and one, two, three. all right, thank you. >> thank you. unfoldsn, where history daily. in 1979, c-span was created by america's cable television company that is pot -- and is brought to you today by your cable or satellite provider. author robert mary talking about his biography of mckinley.

then theresa may takes questions from the house of commons. then madeleine albright and condoleezza rice. ♪ announcer: this week on q&a, merry talks about his book. you are the author of president mckinley, a new piracy. what was life like -- a new biography. then?as going on back the country was

expanding and poised to move dramatically into the world. you and i talked about james k. polk one of my previous subjects, and how he expanded the united states. but mckinley pushed out into the caribbean the way no president had done before. it happened because america was building and industrial base and .conomic growth they were building a navy. mckinley had a lot to do with it but it was actually before him. they were gaining more and more interest in building the panama canal. with serious up conflict in the caribbean with

the spanish empire, which controlled and owned cuba, it was inevitable that we would go to war with spain and basically kick them out of the caribbean and pick up significant members of their possessions and become an empire. brian: how would you describe mckinley? if he was in this room, what would he be like? robert: he was a tough nut for be to crack. i have written a number of biographies and i thought i was pretty good at bringing people to life. mckinley was not easy to bring to life. he did not keep a diary and he hardly wrote any letters. there is very little written record of what he was thinking or how he was feeling.

i was really struggling with the book. postiend at the washington who read my manuscript, he touched on it by saying this guy is a mystery. he was a very effective president, but you cannot quite figure out how or why he was able to accomplish all he accomplished. he was an incrementalist, a manager, not a man of force. without that force, he had an amazing capacity to manipulate people into doing the , ands he wanted them to do they thought it was their idea. once i captured that, you could see what he was doing and how he was manipulating. there was sort of a silent drama that emerged.

brian: i want to go back to the 2009 interview that we had a few here when you are talking about james polk. ok?see this clip, >> this was not my idea. it came from my editor who is legendary as somebody who loves the narrative history and has passion for american history. , when i was coming up with ideas for books, she said, what do you know about the mexican war? brian: you said in your acknowledgments that the same thing happened with this book. that your editor did not like your ideas, and he said, do one on mckinley. robert: i still have the same editor.

boss, he had ar bigger position at simon & schuster. contractten a two book to do a book on the presidency, which i did. and also a book on the 1850's, how america fell apart and had to go to war to get put back together. i wanted to do it through a prism that i thought might be revealing. the prism of the two crazy states that were driving us to war, massachusetts and south carolina. that contract was delivered. but jonathan was reading my book on the presidency in manuscript form and he liked it. bookew i had done the polk and it had gotten attention. , ihe went to alice and said

wonder if we should not keep merry on presidents. i am intrigued by mckinley. so they asked me if i would be willing to switch to another subject. i was not sure about it. we had a meeting in new york. waxed eloquently on the 1850's and a little bit less eloquently on mckinley. but jonathan said he was not sure how to market a book on a decade. they do not have natural selling impetus. but he knew how to market a book on mckinley. so we said, take a couple of weeks, give it some thought and let me know what you decide. i said, i do not need two weeks, i want to write books now. i was about to move and i was giving up my job.

i have since gotten another job, but i said i wanted write books for you guys. i want to write books you think will sell. so i will do mckinley. and i am really glad i did. i spent many years at congressional quarterly, i was the editor there and ceo for 12 cold but the company got -- that sold and i was unhorsed. i ended up the editor of a national interest magazine focused on foreign policy. when i was ready to move to the northwest, i gave up that position and started the mckinley book. after it was finished, i was on the border of directors -- the board of directors of a nonprofit that oversees

magazines and web publishing called the american conservative. that happens to be my political orientation. the magazine found itself without an editor and asked if i would step in. i did. that was a year ago. back-and-forth between washington state and washington dc. on the mckinley book, where did you go to find out what he was like? how did you figure him out? robert: there was not a lot of documentation in terms of what he was thinking, so you have to go to people around him. assistant,nderful almost like a chief of staff.

he kept a diary. so you got a sense of what he was saying and inking. -- saying and thinking. other people kept diaries. there were interviews many years ago with people who were close to mckinley. those gave some good stories. newspaper articles, you had to scour everything there was that he had anything to do with to piece it together. one man who loved mark hanna was karl rove. here he is on this network talking about mckinley. >> the republicans hold the house for 26 and 36 years, the white house for 28, and the senate for 30 the only time they lose power is when they divide

among themselves as they do in 1912. they had more governors and state led to stars than today. citiesors of most major were republican. mckinley created a new correlation of -- coalition of smalltime farmers and traditional small business allies. it becomes an unstoppable coalition for over three decades. brian: where did mckinley grow up and how did he get into politics? robert: he grew up in small-town ohio. then in lisbon, ohio and poland, ohio. got sick in his freshman year of college. illness was mysterious. when he got better, he had to go

to work because the family was stretched. so they got a job as a schoolteacher and postal clerk. he was doing that at age 18 when the civil war broke out. passionatelylways abolitionist. he hated slavery. his mother was very bright, a reader, they got the weekly new run by one of the leading abolitionist in america. he gave himself a few days to think it over, but he quickly enlisted in the u.s. army as a private. he spent four years in the service during the civil war.

ast of his promotions came as result of battlefield heroics. he did not seem to have any sense of what fear might be or how it might be used to keep you out of crazy situations. sergeant,uartermaster so he was in the battle of antietam, the bloodiest day in american history. he was away from the action. he was making sure everyone had food. there was a unit that had found itself isolated and could not get out of this situation. this unit had been fighting since early in the morning and had no breakfast or lunch and had run out of water. this was late afternoon. these people were in extremis.

that unit was not going to be in fighting fitness. some mckinley got in his head from three miles away that he was going to load up a wagon and get the wagon to the troops. he found a guy to volunteer with him and he loaded up the wagon and started moving through the woods to the clearing where the battle was going on. he ran into two officers who told him to get back, forget it. he ignored them and went through the clearing. got the back of his wagon shot off but got revisions to the troops. he became a commissioned officer as a result to the -- result of that crazy deed and continue to rise up because of similar battlefield actions. brian: how did he get elected to the house of representatives and how long was he there? robert: when he got back from

the civil war, he decided he wanted to be a lawyer. he knew he wanted to become a congressman. mentor was rutherford b hayes. he loved mckinley. also from ohio. he wanted to follow in his footsteps. hayes told him no. he said, you can make a lot more money if you went into industrial activity. going to be an industrial explosion, and hayes knew it. but that is not what mckinley wanted. he carefully preserved the letter but discarded the advice. and movedme a lawyer to canton, ohio.

he immediately emerges as a civic leader. he was in veterans organizations, the methodist church, everything he seems to join he rose up into leadership positions. he was the president of the chamber of commerce. he was the superintendent of the sunday school at church. on and on. that he,t surprising it was well known in his was aity, when there vacancy in the house of representatives, he went for it. brian: how often was he disrupted? did he lose it all while he was there? robert: it was a precarious situation. betweens a parity republicans and democrats in ohio. we talk about gerrymandering

today, all of the problems, in , if the democrats controlled the legislator, they were going to mess with the district. and that is what happened. in one instance, after his first and second term, in his third term, he actually lost but only after a recount that took almost a year because it was so close. theid not know he had lost seat until he had been back in washington, continuing to represent the district. so then he went back and regained it and continued to have it. he was in the house for 14 years. the chairman of the ways and means committee and created a protectionist bill.

himself on the outs because we were beginning to move into a recession and businesses took the occasion to raise prices. the tariff had not even gone into effect yet. the democrats went after republican incumbents. 1890 was a terrible year. you somet me show video, because you go back to the late 1800s and he is interested in protected tariffs. this is from the summer, where the current president of the united states had this to say about tariffs. trump: the great president from the state of ohio, mckinley. does anybody know who the hell he is?

he understood that when america protects our workers and industries, we open up a higher and better destiny for people. tariffs,plain protective tariffs, this limit -- the similarity between trump and mckinley. the country has had from the beginning a tradition of politicians and political parties who believe it was important to set barriers of goods coming into the country to protect domestic producers. it goes back to alexander hamilton, who was a protectionist in that sense. but there are two things to be said about hamilton. number one, the tariffs were no more than 8.5% on goods coming in.

he said that once an industry got established, there was no particular reason to have those tariffs. but once you let -- but once you get it you cannot let go of it here at so the federalist were protectionist, abraham lincoln was a protectionist, the whigs were protectionists. the republican party were protectionists in those days. cans important that you identify great times of growth in america with protective tariffs and you can identify terrible times in america. the same can be said about times of free trade. they are thear if end-all be-all in terms of what economy you will have, but they are factors. other things come into play, as well.

brian: what were the percentages on tariffs then? robert: in 1890, they were in the neighborhood of 50% on a lot of goods. the interesting thing about the -- about mckinley that the president did not mention is that as he became president, he discovered that his views were changing. the reason was because he understood that america was becoming an explosive producer of agricultural and industrial goods. market ofar that the america was not going to be sufficient to absorb all of the goingthat this country through the chance or mission was going to produce. in order for prosperity to continue, it would be necessary to sell goods overseas. you cannot sell them overseas if

you have major barriers from goods coming in. because you do not have anything to trade. brian: what would you say the tariff world is like now? how much do we charge for goods coming in and how much to other countries charge for our goods? the trade today is not really tariffs. if you look at what china is doing, it is non-terrorists barriers that they -- non-tarr if barriers. means all kinds of benefits that the governments can give today to mastic producers so that they can out produce their other countries. subsidies, any other kinds of benefits that the government

this does upon domestic producers. brian: how long was the mckinley -- beingeing used used? robert: it was not popular. prices were raised. under grover cleveland, who succeeded the time where the mckinley tariff was enacted in 1890, grover cleveland was a republican. he brought down the tariffs marginally. mckinley put them back up. mckinley hadme, crafted a concept of reciprocity. it was not unlike what we might call fair trade today. bilateraled agreements with countries in which both countries would

reduce their barriers to foster trade across the borders. that was a result of his recognizing that we needed to be able to develop markets overseas in order to ensure the continuation of prosperity. brian: go back to the time where he was in the house. when did he meet his wife and how? robert: he met her before he went into politics. he offered not to go into politics. it is a defining story about mckinley. finesty was one of the humans who has made it to the white house. he was genuinely a fine guide, but he was calculating more than he let on. but he was a really nice guy. , her father was very

well-to-do. grandfather started a printing press and her father built on that and got into banking and mining. they had multiple servants in the house. smart, petite, attractive, clever. her ate wanted to woo the appropriate age. she picked mckinley. manners ands good his ambition and his ability to bring people to his side. so they were married, it was a

storybook thing. there were 1000 people at their wedding, according to the canton newspaper. he was gravitating towards running for congress at that time. they had a daughter within one year of their marriage, katie. pregnantter, data was -- ida was pregnant again. then things went awry. it almost seems like a terrible fate was he falling them. during her pregnancy, she learned her mother was dying. she took it very hard. that might have contributed to a troublesome pregnancy. it was a tough pregnancy. the baby was born, another

daughter. the baby was not healthy and died five months later. inconsolable and went into a deep depression. it was not clear that she was going to come out of it until her sister said that william decided she had to come out of it. then she developed -- she had some kind of carriage accident. she might have had a spinal injury history -- spinal injury of some type. she had a hard time walking for the rest of her life. even in the white house, she could get down the stairs, but

she could not get up the stairs. he would carry her up the stairs and she always had a cane with her. then there was the development of epilepsy. she would have epileptic fits, which in those days was considered a mental disease. people often ended up in mental institutions. but william never wavered. even as she became a different person. person,ng a clever, fun she became sedentary and she became somewhat peevish. that andccepted all of never wavered in his devotion to her. it became a famous story in america, he gained a lot of

political points for being as devoted as he was to this woman who sometimes struggled through life. brian: what was the difference in age? robert: i think the age difference was eight years. brian: how did he do with her epilepsy and illnesses in the public spotlight? robert: they try to avoid it, but you could not all the time. heyou had a dinner party, always try to sit next to her, but sometimes if they were guest he could not. but sometimes her face would become contorted and he would know what was happening and he would take a napkin and jury bit over her face and go on as if nothing had happened. when it was over, he would

remove the napkin. a lot of their friends and acquaintances understood and did not talk about it much and sort of passed along as if it was not a big deal. brian: how much publicity was there about her? robert: there was publicity in terms of her being an invalid. she was often in a wheelchair and she did not seem self-conscious about that. but the epilepsy was caught under wraps. he did not want that to get out and it never was. go into greatnot detail. no one really knew what was going on. medication, lot of and that must have -- and that might have affected some of her to behavior.

he lost the seat in the congress in 1890 and then refused to believe that this was in any way a reflection on his views on protectionism. he wanted to be president, and he did not know where to go. you lose a seat and you lose political momentum. he thought about waiting two years and then running for a seat again. he decided maybe the governorship was the best steppingstone. he ran for governor and there was an incumbent democrat who was an effective politician. thatd to roll over gentlemen, which he did. towwo two year terms. now, how he were here would he fit in ideology?

he would probably be a moderate republican. republican,eller but a moderate to liberal republican with strong views , freeeconomics enterprise. but probably somewhat more liberal views on racial matters and social issues. brian: when did you first meet teddy roosevelt? robert: i'm not quite sure when he met in the first time, but he knew him vaguely when he became president. many top republicans were agitating to have teddy roosevelt be appointed assistant naval secretary. he was not sure he wanted to

give him that job, because he had heard that roosevelt was always agitating everybody and was a man out of control. freak andas a control a lot of ways. he did not want a aust. he told -- he did not want chaos. he told his friends he was not sure that roosevelt would behave himself in the office. but roosevelt had so many admirers and friends and they loved him and went to bat for him. the result was that he finally exceeded to their request and allowed roosevelt to become assistant navy secretary. the secretary was a .assachusetts former governor he was a little bit in firm, needed rest. afraid discovered he was

to take an afternoon off because he was not sure what roosevelt would do in his absence. issuing orders for ships to move here and there. roosevelt and thought he was brilliant, but felt sometimes that the guy was out of control. mckinley liked to go for monday rides. forhe kenley likes to go buggy rides. one of the people he would invite frequently was roosevelt because he was amusing and energetic and entertaining. brian: you point out in your , mckinley always got his way in part because he never cared about the credit. you say later that roosevelt always cared about getting credit. robert: roosevelt never shared

credit with anybody. said he desperately wanted to be the bride at every wedding. he had to be the center of attention at all times. mckinley had a totally different approach. mckinley was more calculating then he appeared. i think there is an anecdote from a congressman in ohio. congressman butterworth was talking about mckinley. he said, if mckinley and i were walking through an orchard with only one tree, and that tree had to apples, mckinley would walk under the tree, pick one, put it in his pocket, take the other

one, take a bite out of it, and turned to me and say, then, do you like apples? alwaysed that mckinley got his way. he always got all of the apples. brian: when did mark hanna hook up with mckinley in ohio? robert: mark hanna fell in love with ben foraker. prominent politician in ohio. he became governor. mark can, who had been a , verysful industrialist rich and politically motivated, he wanted to get an ohio man in the white house. the one he had in mind was john

the brother of a great civil war general. sherman was getting up in years but still want to get the presidency. get forakerrking to into the governorship and sherman into the white house. he got foraker into the governorship. foraker became unsteady in his support of sherman. at the convention, foraker demonstrated that he was prepared to abandon sherman. that was more than mark hanna could take. he believed in loyalty.

another man emerged in the convention. a lot of people said, maybe mckinley is our man. mckinley stood up in the convention, dramatically, and basically said he will not accept any support for president. he was there to support john sherman, and was not going to entertain any action that would , anyattention in any way suggestion that he would wane in his devotion to sherman. his stock went up. foraker's stock declined. mark hanna switched allegiance ease from foraker to mckinley overnight. winn: how big did mckinley

in the convection -- convention? it was a coronation. he had it. presidency by running against william james brian, the big question about the cost of gold and how to expand silver and expand the money supply. a lot of farmers felt they were bankers leaguer by the leaguered by the bankers. william james brian emerges at

the democratic convention in an explosion of political sentiment in favor of the free coinage. they shall not crucify us on the cross of gold. they shall not put the crown of thorns, and he stands up at the podium and out stretches his arms like a cross of gold. the democrats went crazy. goldckinley stayed with and launched the first educational presidential campaign, where he realized he was going to have to explain these issues. he won by a significant margin. and he beat them again in the next election. was it bigger? robert: yes.

and by that time his presidency .ad been so successful mckinley ended it a big depression on his watch. so he managed to take the sting away from brian's silver advocacy. here tohere is a lot in read that we cannot get to. i will jump to another scenario. the uss monitor story. what got the monitor in trouble, what was that all about? through the cuba situation and puerto rico, spain, the philippines. but start with the monitor story.

robert: i am not sure what you mean by the monitor story. brian: i mean the main, i am in a different world. robert: i am going to have to backtrack. wasn's number one colony cuba. it had the philippines and puerto rico and a few other islands in the pacific. but cuba was very significant because they got a lot of commerce, sugar and particular, from cuba. it worked for them tremendously. the cubans, like the mexicans earlier, had wanted independence. there was a ten-year insurrection that occurred two

decades before mckinley was elected. it was devastating to spain and the island. now another insurrection was in progress when mckinley was elected. spain sent a general to cuba. the general was brutal in his effort to end the insurrection. so brittle that he essentially forced people, ordinary people, s so that they could not support the insurrection. he did not have the capacity to feed or clothes them. it they died in huge numbers. we were looking at this in america, 90 miles away from florida, and saying this is unconscionable. he is destabilizing the entire

caribbean. cuba -- if cuba descended into chaos, there was no guarantee that a major european power would come in with more force than spain and take over the island and then be even more of a threat to america. predecessor, not haveeveland, did much sympathy for the cubans. he was a status quo guy. he thought the best thing that would happen for -- would be for spain to remain in cuba. that was becoming in terrible. becoming untenable. mckinley had more sympathy for the cubans. he did not want to go toward the spain, but he wanted spain to

negotiate or get out. spain basically said, you cannot tell us that. mckinley would not yield. he sent the battleship maine ensure ita harbor, to was there to help americans might get caught up in the chaos. it exploded at a time where there was a lot of passion in cuba and spain. it made war inevitable. war,s trying to avoid the that was preparing for it. determine they ever who caused the explosion? robert: the board of inquiry the navy can it -- the navy created

suggested it was an outside ship . subsequent research has raised questions about that. my own view is it is indeterminate. a lot of people say it was internal, that something happened within the ship and it was an accident. we do not know. brian: the late war and late warren the talked about mckinley in this clip. >> he was one of the nicest men that ever held the presidency. he was limited a bit in his vision. he was the president of the business. he was also a man with a real heart. he had fought in the civil war

and was a decorated hero. he did not like war. war, i said, i have seen have seen the bodies dialogue. i do not want to get us into a war. brian: why did you cite his book? robert: i knew him. he was very helpful to me and another project. mckinleyis view of that is prominent among roosevelt biographers and , which is of the time that mckinley was a leaf in the wind. he was a passive man. all of these big events occurred.

he was not really responsible for them. my book basically takes that on. wonderful butis he has a misinterpretation of mckinley. he is not alone in that. tell the american people that they had a president who was very effective and knew what he was doing, managed events, and he does not get credit for it. i am trying to give him a little bit more credit. brian: let's go back to the maine and the explosion and the american deaths. after that happened, what happened between this country and spain? the explosionn and the declaration of war, i will not going to all of the things that happened, but war

became inevitable. mckinley knew it. we cents a man with a fleet near hong kong to the philippines where he promptly destroyed every ship in the spanish fleet. fatality among the americans. of you will did. -- a few were wounded. then they intercepted the spanish atlantic fleet and destroyed that one. then he had his army land in santiagomove toward and take it. which he did. that is the famous teddy the san juane up

ridge. there in atroops up difficult, delicate time. --oic but full hearty foolhardy. that led to spain signing for peace. they brought in the french ambassador to washington to be the intermediary to represent them and their interest in negotiation. he was hoping that mckinley and hee compassionate did not know what he was in for.

mckinley was very tough in negotiations. he would not even enter into any talks and less it was clear that the spanish would leave cuba. he made it clear from the beginning. there was legislation to the effect that we had no designs on said, we are going to get puerto rico. an island in the marianas, and that would be guam. devastated.were we were basically telling them that we were going to end to them as a material power, and we did. brian: how did mckinley get hawaii? robert: it's another distinguished -- distinction between him and cleveland. was not a man of

vision, did not have a huge , but he had a way of seeing events clearly understanding the implications and there for what he needed to do. he realized the hawaiian islands were one of the most strategic spots in the world. from those islands, you can control a huge amount of territory. it?n: what did we pay for robert: we didn't. we just annexed it. brian: who had it before us? people,the polynesian the indigenous people of hawaii,

but because it was such an amazing spot in the middle of the north pacific, people came , the sugaricans came plantations emerged. the sugar was a high-margin business. came in to run sugar plantations and became rich. they felt they, should have more power. so they rested political power from the polynesians. monarchy.n a lil wanted to preserve her monarchy.

but they basically took over the island and said, we want you to be part of america. if we had not have taken those islands, japan would have. had a significant claim on those islands, because the plantation owners had brought in lots of japanese workers for the fields. they were not being treated well. was agitating for better for the japanese working in the islands. through that, they kind of had a claim. germany wanted colonies wherever they could get them in those days. they wanted to be like england. so if we had not have the islands, japan would have probably gotten them. brian: i want to show you some ofeo that is a reenactment

when this man was executed. what led up to this execution? this is soldaz. he killed mckinley. greeting line. he had his hand in a bandage, as if it had been injured. mckinley reached out to shake his other hand, whereupon he put a pistol to mckinley's chest and fired. mckinley stepped back and the second bullet entered his abdomen. it could not be removed. ultimately, mckinley developed sepsis.

then he died. brian: i want to repeat that is a reenactment. leading up to that was a six-week train trip. ida got very sick on that trip. in san she almost died francisco from what was essentially blood poisoning. she was very close to death. as soon as she was able, they moved across and the country to washington. they were scheduled to go to the pan-american exposition in the spring. but they couldn't, and it was rescheduled for september. is how soldaz was able

to get there and do his dirty deed. i learned that mckinley was a man of force. more than he gets credit for. there and lay an interesting story. this easyis guy with temperament and pleasant way about him, how did he do all of the things he did? brian: you did the james polk biography. he died at age 53. mckinley died at 58. what is the big difference leaders?hose two as mckinley is a very sympathetic figure. you would like him. constricted and not very pleasant and consumed with

his own humans. mckinley did not have any demons. brian: will you writing other ion murphy -- will you write biography? murphy -- robert: yes. brian: in all the writings you have done, which is your favorite person to write about? stop, by far.l our guest has been robert merry. thank you so much for joining us. ♪ four free

transcripts, physical us at q&a.org. our programs are also available as c-span podcast. announcer: if you enjoyed this q&a, here are some other you might enjoy. scott miller writes about the assassination of william mckinley in the president and the assassin. and in another interview, ronald kleinman talks about assassination attempts and presidentse against and presidential candidates. you can find these programs online at c-span.org. announcer: monday night on the

communicators, the newest member of the commission joins us to theuss net neutrality, effort to sue at&t, and media ownership rules. he is interviewed by john handle. >> do you have faith in the doj? has a limited role to play in mergers. we take a look and ask if there is a transaction specific harm. if there is, we try to find a remedy for the harm. then we can move forward with public interest determination. we view mergers as sort of a christmas tree where you can hang your agenda on it. that is not my approach or the

approach that i think lawfully the announcer: watch the communicators monday night at 8:00 p.m. on c-span2. , primeng up next minister's question. then matalin right and condoleezza rice talk about threats to freedom and democracy around the world. then that 11:00, another chance robert merry on q&a. next, prime minister's questions. the prime minister was asked about the resignation of 37babwe's resident after years and power and how