testifying about russian influence during the 2016 election. and the investigation being led by special counsel robert mueller. later, russian president vladimir putin starts about the state of u.s.-russian relations and other foreign-policy challenges during his annual year-end news conference in moscow. spotis week on newspapers -- this week on newsmakers, we're joined by congressman sander levin, ranking democrat on the health subcommittee. thank you for being here. in studio with as is lindsay mcpherson, a congressional reporter with rollcall and also a congressional reporter with the help.

>> there is a lot of news happening, and we do want to talk about the tax conference. headlinese biggest lately have been about sexual harassment allegations against your colleagues, including john conyers, the colleague from michigan who resigned, and there have been new allegations in recent days. do you think the members who have not yet resigned should be resigning? you haven't been up here a long time. what have you noticed as a big problem on capitol hill? well, it is avin: problem. i think each case has to be decided on its own. but i really think it needs to be a new day here, and i think it is coming. and i think people who doingsibly speak out are a credit to themselves and to this institution. it is not only this institution, it is lots of others. so there is a new day coming, we

should all hope. >> what do you mean by new day, congressman? congressman levin: what i mean is i think everybody needs to look at what our practices have been, as well as our policies. i think everybody has to understand that if we really , that meansquality harassment has to stop. in many respects, it is the opposite of equality. that is true in terms of sexual harassment, true in other forms, with sexual harassment, i hope it is a new day. the newu think allegations, do you think they should resign? congressman levin: i have not heard the more recent ones. i just hope each of them takes it seriously, very seriously, and makes the right decision. i have not seen the latest.

but i think, as was true before with others where there were serious allegations, it leaves it up to the member to really step up to the plate. >> shifting gears a little bit when thex conference, house and senate each voted on their separate tax bills, there were no democrats that voted for them. expect when the actual conference report comes out that democrats will be united in opposition to it? congressman levin: absolutely. atrocious.ills are when you combine two negatives, you do not get a positive. you get a bigger, bigger negative, and i think that will be true. us. have not shown it to they have excluded us, so the process has been bad, but the policy has been worse. i took a call from the

president, and he said tom as a candidate, i promised we would pass a massive tax cut to the everyday working american families who are the backbone and heartbeat of our country. now we're just days away from keeping that promise, and we want to give you, the american people, a giant tax cut for christmas. the giant tax cut is going to be for the very, very wealthy. according to the bills that passed, and i do not think they will differ, millions of families, next year, 13 million are going to pay higher taxes, primarily in the middle class. 10 years from now, that figure will be 30 million paying more in taxes, while the wealthy -- and i just checked the data -- it will be for those over $1 million, they will get $73,000 in a tax cut. the republicans like to talk about averages, but when you

break them down -- and i asked the head of joint tax to tell us what is behind the averages, and that is what he came out, by saying, is centrally, a lot of people are going to be paying more taxes, especially those in the middle class, beginning a month from now, next year. >> i understand you think this conference report will be a bigger negative, but we heard of things that democrats have been calling for, like keeping student loan interest to that facility, and it will not fully repealed the estate tax. do you see some of those aspects as positive developments? congressman levin: i have heard that, and those will be improvements. so they are feeling some pressure. but overall, this bill is going of a majorpposite tax cut for middle income families. also, it is going to increase the deficit.

mr. mnuchin put out a paper that even republican experts found was unbelievable. essentially, the deficit is going to increase by $1 trillion, and all of a sudden, republicans who used to worry about to have said, they are saying taxes will pay for themselves. that is a myth. it has been proven in recent times. and they are saying that growth will take care of the increase in the debt. , what is tax says going to be the increase in growth of the next 10 years? there estimate is .8%. you divide that by 10 or however you want, and essentially, they are not telling the truth as to who will benefit, and they are grossly, grossly misstating what the realities are as to the national debt and their hope for growth.

they, more than anything else, want a tax bill because they have not accomplished anything else. it is desperation. so that is why the republicans are pulling together, even those who have deep doubts about this, because they figure if they fail on this after failing on other things, then they are going to lose the election next year. essentially, what is driving this is politics. haste makes waste, and that policy will turn out to be bad politics. i am convinced of that. up isething that has come democrat's are pushing for republicans to kind of delay the work on the tax bill until after doug jones, who won the special election in alabama, is seated, but republicans have not been very receptive to that. guys willmething you

continue to push, and he you think you guys might make any headway there? congressman levin: we learned long ago that you cannot push against a wall. you keep pushing what is behind a wall. you keep pushing as to what is really the truth. so we're not going to move them. they think this is the 2018 election. but when people wake up to what the facts are -- the same is true as to the continuing resolution -- here we are just a it days away, december 22 runs out, and republicans is essentially do not know where they are going and what is at stake. the chip program has not been renewed, and states a running out of money. states a running out of money for children's health. disaster relief. as i remember, the disasters happened not a week ago, they

happened long ago. islands andand the florida and houston. the republicans think they can jam a cr through, and if we vote no, they are going to blame us. and the ones that are to blame are the ones that are in control. >> congressman, you mentioned a bunch of year-end issues. when you did not mention is the daca program that helps these young dreamers. democrats have been pushing hard to get that done by the end of the year. do you think that that is feasible, and if so, how far do you think democrats will go to end ofdone before the december? congressman levin: i wanted to take that separately because it is so compelling. if know, republicans act as they have never met a dreamer, as if they do not know the stories. or if they know them, they do

not seem to care. we're talking about 800,000 people, people who came here as in the vasten majority of cases, and they have shown themselves not only to be inamers but to begin, hundreds of thousands of cases, to fulfill the american dream. and the republicans just seem to say to them, well, stay in suspense. it is frightful. it is insensitive. it is insensitive. and i hope, essentially, that the republicans, maybe in their dreams, will begin to think about the dreamers. but also, i hope they will go back home. they will be home this weekend and then after for the holidays.

i hope when they go home, they will talk to people -- if they have not acted, but we should act now. we should act now. and the stories about people being picked up out of the blue because their parents brought the opposite of what i think america is all about. >> you talk about them going home, so it sounds like you are saying we should act now, but you seem a little resigned that it will not get done before the end of the year. congressman levin: no, i am not resigned. democrats willing to vote against the spending bill? congressman levin: i do not think the camera can show this, but we're going to put our foot down. i do not think the camera caught that. but we're going to put our foot down. both feet. also, we are going to speak out. i am going home. i will be home this weekend.

and i hope to talk further to dreamers and tell their stories. immigration policies of this --inistration are a churches are atrocious. they picked up 110 iraqi christians, people who came here, and most cases, 12 to 20, 30 years ago. as far as we can determine, there are 110, but some have had children that are american citizens. out of the blue, the have picked them up, and now they are in detention. one of them said to me, i will go back if they shipped me back n afford toand i ca a car, but i rent have no place to go. for 25, 30been there years, i am an american. that is what the dreamers are saying. they are saying we are americans

. many of them have been in college. many are working. many were leaders in the class. , they feel like they're part of america, the american reality, and the wantcan dream, and now we to essentially say we are going to leave you hanging out there. as i said before, we're going to put both feet down and beat out, again, as we come that on monday. >> you mentioned politics a lot. how confident are you that democrats will take control of the house again after the 2018 election? congressman levin: i am increasingly confident and will do everything i can. years, ing here for 35 indicated that i will not run for reelection after next year. am confident, and i am going

to do everything i can. i want to sum it up this way -- we have found out what it is like to be in the minority. you mentioned these issues like dreamers. if we were in the majority, this would have been remedied long ago. we talked about health care, chip. that would have been remedied long ago. and haveg to go home meetings this weekend with people who are really involved and theling people, deadline, unfortunately, has been cut short. they are going to talk about what enrollment in health care has meant. the pace has increased these last days, these last weeks. unfortunately, the administration cut the enrollment in half. so we may end of with fewer

people, but the rush to enroll shows that health is so vital. in thisrepublicans now, bill, are going to make it more difficult for people to get health care. passes, it isill going to lightly increase the premiums, especially for older people. so this tax bill is bad all around. of the wealthy get most benefits, while the very wealthy, those who are not wealthy at all, the middle class, are going to get a small piece of it. we talked about other parts like a pass-through, and that will provide mostly health for wealthier people, and it is going to be abused because people are going to shift back and forth and take advantage to a lower tax cut. so they are going to move from noncorporate to corporate structures, i think.

haste in this case is not only going to bring about waste, it is going to bring about real uncertainty. mainly, the haste is going to benefit a relatively few in terms of most of the value. >> on taxes, i know one thing you have been pushing for for a number of years was to end the carried interest tax, and president trump had said during the campaign he wanted to get rid of that, too. but that does not look like it is part of the bill. how frustrating is that for you? congressman levin: oh, it is so frustrating. carried interest means that the people who are putting together deals essentially pay a lower wait on people who tables, if they did fairly well, or others who provide services. providingey are services, and instead of paying

regular taxes, they have been paying the capital gains tax. it is outrageous. a number of republicans have said so, including the president. but this is an example of the president saying one thing and really it is not happening. i am not sure he government it. , got so disturbed when he said i promise we will pass a massive tax cut for everyday working american families who are the backbone and the heartbeat of our country, and now we're days away from keeping that promise. that is not true. he is not keeping his promise. republicans .2, and the president has, as well, the reaction of the stock market. they say the reaction in the stock market reflects a thinking that this tax cut will trickle down into our economy and mean growth for the u.s. economy.

congressman levin: two things. market has been going up for a number of years. as much as think, the president was to take credit, he should not take president -- credit for what happened under president obama and what has continued from president obama's policies. that is an important point that has to be made. second, a word about growth -- the people who have looked at this they that this notion that tax cuts will promote growth, history shows the opposite. the joint tax committee that is it isl, and the head of essentially fronted by the republicans, has said that over 10 years, the increase in growth will be .8%. when you divide that into 10 years, you can see how small it

is. so he is taking credit for things he is not responsible for. i hope he will acknowledge his role and things he has said and he has done. id the election in alabama, think, is the most recent example that he now says, well, kind of forget it. when he supported someone who was so, according to what has come forth, his conduct was so outrageous, if true, and the ,eople who have spoken say believe us. but the president, apparently, did not believe these people. i think this president has adopted policies and said things that are really dangerous to this country. >> congressman, a quick follow

up -- you talked about your retirement, and you have mentioned you have thoughts about who will succeed you. can you talk about that? and on health care, there is the medical device tax and others that will kick in the next year, what are your thoughts on that issue? congressman levin: as to the first, my son andy, who is a green energy entrepreneur and put forth, i think, the strongest job training program anywhere in this country, is exploring whether he would run for governor but has decided to run in the ninth district, and i think he is immensely talented. but he will run on his own merits. he was a labor organizer and now a business entrepreneur. it me just say a word -- guess we have to finish -- about these health issues. whethera problem, democrats are on some of these

bills or not, we insist to people that we pay for these of thesend some so-called health extenders, if that is what they are calling them, would cost $40 billion to $50 billion, and a do not want to pay for them? this goes previous to this new fight we are having -- we said pay for these major, major provisions. there was an $800 billion tax bill last year, and a lot of us voted no even though it had some provisions that we liked, including the child tax credit improvement. but $800 billion on pay for unpaid for adding to the deficit, and i want to emphasize what happens when you increase the deficit. eventually it comes down to programs that people need, like education programs or health

programs or medicaid. the proposals from republicans are to cut medicaid. they have opposed to cut medicare by over $400 billion. so we increase the deficit that much, and essentially the republicans say you need to cut out or cut down programs that matter to people. education. michigan education is becoming so expensive, and the state is playing less and less a percentage of the cost. this deficit, federally, is going to impact the programs that all of us very much rely on. so the debt has consequences, including interest that we have to pay on it. and the republicans who voted to increase the deficit then say you need to cut the programs that people need as they work hard. >> we have time for one or two popular questions.

>> when it comes to taxes, republicans have already said they probably plan on doing a technical collections bill at some point after the main tax bill passes. do you think democrats will be willing to work with republicans on that? congressman levin: two things. first, they completely shut us out. i have been at conferences which were real, and i have worked with republicans on bills that mattered. they shut us out. that is number one. number two, i think there will have to be many technical corrections. i am going to be around here fighting next year. my prediction is that they are going to have to pick up a lot of the mess, because there is so much uncertainty in this bill. i mentioned the pass-through. nobody knows how they are going to work and how much taxpayers will try to shift. same as any national -- same as

international taxation. if you move overseas, you are going to pay a lower tax rate than if you kept your business here. so it will not only be technical corrections. we will keep fighting and point out, not the imperfections or the flaws, but the deep, deep, deep problems with this tax bill that mainly benefit the very wealthy instead of middle-class taxpayers. it is opposite of what the president says, and many republicans -- i challenged them yesterday, on thursday, wednesday at the conference committee, you are talking about averages but do not tear them apart and say, how many people are going to pay more in taxes? next year, it will be under the two republican bills. 13 million people are going to pay more taxes, primarily middle-class taxpayers. off-baseill is so, so

that we are going to have to go back next year, and i will be very much active on it, trying to remedy, but i think the tax bill is beyond remediation. we need a democratic house and a democratic senate after the 2018 elections to really do tax reform that benefits the middle class of america and promotes real growth. congressman, despite your opposition and opposition from democrats, it sounds like you think this passes in the house and the senate. congressman levin: i think they are so desperate that they will push people, on the republican side, to vote for it. i think, essentially, this is a and notof desperation deep back and forth. bei assume desperation will

the mother. it is likely the mother of that isof a bill contrary to the interests of this country. levin,ressman sander democrat of michigan, we appreciate your time. thank you for being this week's newsmaker. congressman levin: thank you so much. >> you heard the congressman said they will pass it out of desperation. what do the numbers look like right now for next week? >> i cover the house primarily, and it looks pretty good in the house, despite everything we have heard. it sounds like the individual tax cuts are going to be expiring. bill, housee republicans and conservatives have said they do not want 20%. know,ere like, well you we really need to get this done. they are acknowledging that, as

well. they see some overall benefits of going forward. i will let her speak to the senate. >> i think it will go through the senate, as well. its own senate passed version of the bill earlier in the month, all but one republican voted for it. the one who did not, bob corker, had concerns about the deficit. i think those are concerns he will continue to have. for the most part, other senators seem to be on board on the gop side. the question is the timing of the vote. you have to pump republican senators, john mccain and cochran, who have been -- >> who have been ill. >> i think they're also say they will be ready to vote on the bill next week. >> will corker be a yes? >> i do not think he has made a decision, but his concerns about

the deficit are probably not likely to be addressed in the final bill. >> so it sounds like it could be a tithing? oh, they still would have 51. so they are not going to wait for doug jones to be sworn in the obviously. and the vice president announced he will be sticking around for the vote and not going to the middle east during so if he needs to break a tie, he will be there. the republican that could cause them to lose? >> susan collins has said she will wait to see what the final bill looks like. there were things she had been pushing for to get in the bill that looks like they will be in re, some sort of state and local tax deduction, health expenses. on the other hand, she has also had concerns about repealing the individual mandate in obamacare without taking other steps to

stabilize the health insurance market. she has gotten a commitment from senate leadership on her priorities on stabilization, but the house filed a spending bill that did not include those measures in it. so i think she remains to be seen a little bit there. she also has not been a fan of lowering the top rate for individuals, and it looks like a final bill is going to do that. >> any democrats going to vote in the house or senate for this bill? after the last house bill, a democrat from texas said he would consider voting for the final bill. he thought, overall, that the bill benefited operations more than individuals. but he said he was willing to look at the final product. but if distribution does not change, i doubt he will. ,here were a few moderate

fiscally conservative democrats that were open to working with them. >> in the senate? other manchin and one expressed some potential interest before in taking a look at this, that they do not vote for the senate bill. i am not sure very much has changed. >> what impact do you think a passage of this tax reform bill could have on the fractions within the gop on the house side -- doesn't bring them together? >> temporarily. things can change really quickly. examare about to have an from the senate on this spending bill. chuck schumer says we have the votes. it is not clear what the senate will send back. republicans might get

a temporary victory in tax reform. there are some things that are losing. might leave for christmas a little more upset about the spending issue. with roll mcpherson call, and naomi with the hill, thank you both. appreciate the conversation. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2017] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] a tonight on afterwords, washington examiner editor on his book "bannon: always the rebel." he is interviewed by a republican texas representative. >> you have spent a lot of time with steve bannon. you have heard his goals. you have talked about what he