former dnc chair donna brazile on her book about the 2016 election. ♪ announcer: this week, former chair of the democratic national committee donna brazile "hacks." her book brian: donna brazile, author of the book "hacks." who was lionel? was my dad, born

in new orleans, served his country proud in korea. raised myself and my other eight siblings. i am the third of nine children. he was an amazing man. when i was a little girl growing up in louisiana, my father --ghten me because he was to frightened me because he was so tough, so courageous. his nickname was goose. they called him goose because they said he could fly like a goose. he was a possible player -- a basketball player. he played baseball. he was an amazing man, a great father. tough, but always fair. brian: how did you know he was tough? i will point did he show that to you -- at what point did he show that to you? donna: he would tell us to go outside and do things that i would think, why did he want us to do that? he would tell us to go face whatever danger we had come a weather was -- had, whether it was snakes or swamp creatures.

we lived outside the city of new orleans. we had a large piece of land, but it was adjacent to what we used to call the forest, but it was just a bunch of weeds and sugarcane and a lot of other stuff. i dad would make us do things that i thought at the time, why is he making us do this? he wanted us to be very disciplined. we had to wake up every morning and make up our beds. he also told us that we had to listen to our mother and love the lord. brian: you have talked a lot about your book and the fbi and the russians that all of that. i am going to try to concentrate some on you as a person and some of the other little things in the book. i will read back to you something you wrote. i sprinkled a little holy water on the chairs and desk and said a prayer for healing and for strength." what was that moment, and why did you put that in the book? donna: i am a basic catholic.

my father and mother taught us to pray. they made us pray when we were kids. i love the notion of sprinkling holy water to cleanse things. i like to smudge, often with sage or cedar. it is a way to express one's openness to guidance from a higher power. you have to cleanse yourself, you have to cleanse the environment. i often would go over to the dnc and sprinkle holy water because i thought we were under attack and we needed special protection. of course, i read the psalms every day. the best one my aunt ethel taught us, my dad oldest sister, when my enemies come before me, i shall stumbl -- they shall stumble and fall. -- i usednation of

the common nation of holy water -- combination of holy water and and since. andked god for strength wisdom and encourage, humility, for that asked god because everything is in divine order. if it is not in divine order, it is not my job to ask god to make it such. my job is to ask god for protection, for courage, for wisdom, for humility. but i don't believe i've ever asked god for a victory. brian: what is your reaction, having been in politics for how many years now? donna: my last count i am coming up on my 49th year, getting close to my 50th anniversary in politics. i started at the age of nine working for a candidate who promised to build a playground in my community. he won the election for city council and the playground was installed, and i've had a

lifelong commitment to politics. brian: how often over the years have you watched a politician use god in his or her campaign and didn't -- and you didn't believe it? donna: with the exception of rev. jessee jackson, i have never been drawn to those who said they knew god better than anyone else. i tried to distill from interacting with people their faith, their commitment to acting upon that faith, which is about compassion and love and justice and mercy. i have rarely looked for a candidate that espoused the same faith. in fact, i have worked for a few atheists in my life. that was some of the hardest campaigns and individuals to work for, but in the end they respected me and my views and i respected them, though from time to time i would tell them i was praying for them. brian: writing this book that

ended up on "the new york times" best seller list, who dislikes this book the most that has told you that to your face? donna: i have not had one person tell me to my face, although on twitter when the so-called exerts came out -- so-called ts came out, there was intense reaction for my former colleagues at the democratic party, as well as the clinton campaign. the initial reaction i thought was unfair. they didn't read the book. they read the excerpts and thought i was speaking out by writing a book that criticized to the campaign -- criticized the campaign. the excerpts also had a lot of red meat that president trump pick up and used to try to sow division between myself and the clinton campaign.

it was painful at first, the first 48 hours. i have been attacked by everybody, the right wing, the russians, the trump campaign, the sanders campaign, and now i can add to that list the clinton campaign. there is something in the bible that always keeps me grounded, be fort is that is god you, who can be against you? , iause i can say those words am ok. i have a lot of family. i have brothers and sisters who --ove, on, uncles -- o aunts, uncles. i have good friends that know me. there are people today who are still upset. perhaps one mistake i made that i haven't had a chance to discuss with anyone is that i

gave them heads up. i wasn't writing behind people's back. i said i was going to write this book, i am going to tell this story because this is a very important conversation we need to have about what happened in 2016 from the perspective of a chair of the democratic national committee. not the candidate, not the campaign, but the chair of the party. i gave everybody heads up. the first thing i did once my proposal was done and the publisher said it is a go, i requested help from a journalist. i said, given the controversial , this of this campaign disruptive political season, and the controversy that i myself had to endure, i wanted a journalist to fact check and make sure that i got it as close to the truth as i could possibly do. brian: you have talked about the fact that you recorded with a journalist friend. in the back of the book you talk

about her and told that story. when all was said and done, what did you take out that did not get in the book because you look back at it and said, that is going to far? donna: well, there were times when i wanted to write a little bit more about some of the controversy that we all experienced. one good example is the so-called mi six -- so-called mi6. when the chair of the party is unable to make decisions around contracts, spending money, hiring consultants, it made my job difficult because i could not keep people accountable, and yet when i kept looking at the book i said, first of all, i didn't know if secretary clinton was well aware of the arrangements that were made between her campaign staff and the staff at the dnc.

i know i was not aware. so i wanted to write the book in such a way as to give her the opportunity to learn as well some of the things that were happening in the campaign. was awaredea that she or not aware, but i have no idea if they had communicated with her. i left a lot of those financial arrangements out because i did not think the american people would understand them. i did not think the reader what. i thought the trump people would take advantage of it to exploit and attack secretary clinton more, so i can a lot of that stuff out. brian: you say, "i am slow to anger." how slow? donna: it normally builds up. -- i ameel as though not one who walks around with a grudge.

as i mentioned, i pray all the time, so i ask for forgiveness if i make a mistake. when i believe people are or perhapstacking trying to harm me, it angers me. i also hate injustice in all of its forms. i hate bigotry. i don't like racism, sexism, any the -isms,any of and yet when i was confronted with a situation where i could not give my input -- i mean, traveling is not easy. going to colorado one day, florida the next day, backup to washington dc, pennsylvania, back to the west coast, nevada, ohio, michigan. days of that,five i am trying to relay what is happening in these communities, talking to people.

people know me. they stop me, they call me, they email me, the text me. every time i tried to relay what is happening to the team, imagine this -- if you are the chair of the party down in florida, and you got the phone and call the congressional folks come a they are like, no problem madam chair. we are on it. and i did that in the orlando area. but when i would call the clinton campaign and relay the same information, they were dismissive, as if, you don't have to worry. we are going to win. we have this all under control. the democratic in the campaign committee would pick up the phone and call me back. kelly ward at the democratic congressional campaign committee would pick up the phone and call me back. but when it came to the clinton campaign, it was just totally dismissed, and that anger me -- that angered me.

brian: how many presidential campaigns have you worked on? donna: seven as a staff person and 11 cycles as either an unpledged delegate or strategic advisor. i advised the obama campaign in the general election in 2008 and 2012. had a great relationship with them. had a great relationship with the john kerry campaign, a great relationship going as far back as the carter-mondale years all the way up to the clinton-gore years. this was the first presidential to getn that trying basic information to those in charge that for member, they were in charge of the dnc -- basic information to those in charge that, remember, were in , ande of the dnc's money yet i had to constantly challenge them to support the

party and to unleash the party so that the party could go out there and support down ballot races such as people running for sheriff or city council all the way up to the oval office. brian: let me ask you about this paragraph in your book. before i get there, though, you announce in the book that you used to swear and drag a lot, and you gave that up. donna: and smoke -- and drink a lot, and you gave that up. donna: and smoke. 3 brian: you say because of what happened during the campaign, you are back -- were back doing it again. smoke 20's, i would maybe a pack a month. everyone would keep a couple cigarettes handy in case things became stressful. --njoyed jerking scotch

drinking scotch. now i like a nice glass of red wine, cabernet. this campaign i went back to my old friend johnny walker, especially with the attacks. the hacking itself was so difficult to handle because it was invasive. they came after you. you don't know what part of your life they were coming after. they were coming after your personal emails, your text messages, your cell phone, and you couldn't control what was happening once they unleashed the information because then the twitter bots and facebook trolls would then take the next step to begin to personally attack you and harass you. night, we had a group of folks internally in the dnc that would go to the club in order to couple dozen wings and a couple bottles of wine.

i always started off with a nice clear, clean glass of scotch. it was my way of mellowing out. since theews is election, i haven't returned to any of my old vices again, but i needed some way to control the stress i was under and to deal with what was happening in real time. i was trying to protect the staff and the party from further harm and damage. i was trying to protect individuals who, like myself, came under really difficult threats and attacks, and i was trying to keep my head above the water. i had to remain chair. brian: here's is what i was getting at that i want to read back to you. this is on page 26. "when the campaign's communication erector saw the remarks -- medications director, she got angry quick.

jennifer wanted to know who approved the change in the campaign schedule because she certainly had not. jennifer glowered at me, then the staff, then jumped up and walked out, slamming the door behind her. i was thinking, if that bitch ever does anything like that to walk."n, i'm gonna how long did you think about that before you put it in the book? donna: that was my immediate thought. i wanted no conflicts in my schedule, no conflicts in my personal or professional life. i do believe from cnn, abc. i stopped my weekly column. the only thing i kept on my schedule was my students, my class. i would go back to teaching

because i love to teach. here i was volunteering to help hillary clinton and her staff as chair of the party, as well as the president of the united states barack obama, who i supported. all i wanted was tim kaine, the former chair of the dnc, to come to the dnc meeting at the conclusion of the convention to begin to plan ahead for the future, as well as to talk about the general election. and tim kaine, the former chair of the party, who i took over after he departed to run for the united states senate, he had agreed to do it. i knew he agreed to do it. i had one of the staff people write out his remarks. it was only going to be 20 minutes of the time -- of his time. and yet, when jennifer found out, she proceeded to give us a blistering attack on who approved this, why is it happening, and once again it was the kind of condescension and

disrespect of the dnc that i saw in the clinton team that just really made me angry, and i said stop. if you ever do that again, that is it. i am going to walk. i am going to stop doing this. it was so disrespectful, and i was tired of it. i was already tired of it in july. you can imagine in november and beyond how tired i was of it. just people disrespecting the democratic national committee and the chair, who happened to be an unpaid volunteer taking on all the income and going out there every day defending hillary clinton when not one of her spokespeople or staff members went out there, and i went out there every day to defend her. brian: does a little bit of insight here about -- there is a little bit of insight here about the media. when you were working for cnn, what was your response ability? donna: i was a paid political commentator since 2001.

brian: how about abc? donna: same thing, paid political commentator, partisan, for over a decade. donna: here is what i want to ask you about -- brian: here is what i want to ask you about. "in the morning when i was getting ready to go to the studio, i do know if i was going to play the part of the bitch who stands up to the gop talking points. or they might ask me to be cool, calm donna." the insight is that the producers of these shows tell you in advance how they want you to be. is that true? and if so, why? donna: especially in presidential years, it is not like a state of the union when you are out there listening to the remarks of george w. bush or barack obama, which i did, but it is during the height of the i wasgn season, and often

on the same platform as three different republicans. you had a trump republican, a non-trump republican, and a republican who supported the leading candidate at the time who was still in the race, like a ted cruz person or marco rubio or jeb bush person. they would invite me, and my job to defense secretary clinton and her use of emails. i used to call that the office bitch. i had to go in there and anticipate that i had to again discuss her emails -- which, i did not work for her at the state department and i did not know anything about her arrangements. was someone who could go out there and say, to hell with the talking points. she apologized, and i was happy when she apologized for the use

of a private server. if they wanted me that day -- there were other times when i would go out with other would you become the person who could speak on behalf of martin o'malley, bernie sanders, lincoln chafee, or jim webb because they had a clinton person on, someone who had endorsed hillary clinton or was a cnn commentator like my good friend paul. they were "clinton paid commentators" on cnn, so my job was to be the easy peasy, nice and easy person who would describe what bernie or martin or jim webb would say, so i tried -- look, no one put words tvmy mouth, but you are on and in many ways i thought of myself as an actress. i had to play the part.

i could play this part, i could play that part. but used my own words, but i was an actress playing the various roles that i was often assigned to do when i was called to be on television. brian: page 72, explain this one. "over lunch, charlie said i should pick this up with robbie, but i knew that would not be a good conversation. you know, you cannot leave me in a room with a bunch of smartass white boys for 10 minutes before it all starts to go wrong." explain please. donna: oh god. well, here i am. i have worked in politics all my life. i probably have more political experience than most because i started so early, and i had to essentially climb every latter, and i did it twice. his i would go to robby and "band of brothers," there was never a woman in the room.

there was a woman outside the room, but in the room i was the only woman. here are the needs of the democratic national committee. here are the things we want to do. i thought it was important to get his approval since he had this agreement to spend the robby would bend so dismissive and disrespectful. i don't even know if he even understood how disrespectful he was. he would not even consider an idea i would bring to him. for example, after august 19 "whatonald trump said, the hell, do you have to lose" lose," io you have to thought of all the things we could lose if he became president. i wanted to advertise to black voters what is at stake in the

election. of course, because the chair of the party can call upon the president and vice president and first lady to all of cash to also go out there and explain this, i wanted resources, and rob -- to also go out there and explain this, i wanted resources, and robby said, we can do this later. i wanted to do it now. i needed help. they know me. you can't leave me in a room 10 minutes because i am not going to suffer the indignity and disrespect that young folks sometimes have towards those of us who have been around the block a few times. in my case i have been around the country for well over 40 years of my life. 40 years of traveling, working on campaigns from the very bottom of the political ladder to the very top, and yet i couldn't get something as simple as an ad.

brian: in 1999 in an interview you did with "the washington oust congo -- post," want y to add to it more. you said, "a black female in america is the most invisible .bject in the world she will not let the white boys win, and that studies description of gender or race. they don't see it or think about. it's a culture. it's the sense of utter entitlement, and that she will not have." donna: i was down in alabama a few weeks ago, and the same thing. why is doug jones turning to black women today and black voters today, saying i need your help? why didn't he turned to them three months ago when he said i am running for office?

why is it that every time at the end of the road, black women have to over perform? areyet when the campaigns starting and when you are out there and often your candidacy, why not bring women in the room? why not bring women in the room? why do we always have to wait? every time i have gotten in the room, i have always brought in others. i have never excluded. my job as a campaign strategist is to see the country and all of its diversity and complexity, is much attitude more than an attack on white men. some of my greatest supporters and mentors, the people have been white men. it is not about the color and gender, it is the attitude that has to stop. it is an attitude now we see an american politics with the me too movement.

women are tired of being disrespected. they are tired of dealing with sexual or any form of discrimination or bigotry. it leaves us in a position where we are angry, we are upset over the treatment, and i personally found myself speaking up and not taking that anymore. brian: harassment, there has been a lot in the news this last year, 2017. you worked on capitol hill how long ago? donna: i came to washington dc at the age of 21 to be an intern for louisiana's eighth congressional district at the time, the chair of the house democratic caucus chair. i was very excited to work for him. i spent years working for louisiana politics. i came of age in louisiana politics, so i was excited to get this opportunity. i left of the hill -- i left the

hill after we worked on the bill to make dr. king's birthday a holiday, as well as the anniversary of the 1963 march on washington. i went back to capitol hill after the 1990 election cycle to serve as chief of staff for eleanor holmes norton, when i left to work for al gore and manage his presidential campaign in 1999-2000. brian: how much sexual harassment did you see 20, 30 years ago? donna: a lot. unfortunately what we are hearing today from female -- i have been an intern, a press secretary, communications director, staff director on the staff committee. i saw a lot. male staffers.

i experienced a lot. revisecongress now will its rules as it relates to women being able to file complaints. often, especially when i was a hill staffer, many of my colleagues were afraid to come forward because it often meant the end of their career. the process is very burdensome. the burden is on the person filing the complaint. it often takes 30 days or more plus counseling, over 200 days of back and forth with the committee. put theess, again, burden on the individual cannot not just seek counseling and guidance, but to settle and often lose her position. especially if you, like many of us who were hill staffers, had risen from intern to being chief of staff, which i was. you see a lot and experience a lot.

you don't know if it is the end of your career if you speak out or challenge the status quo. brian: big names? donna: yes, big names. many of them are gone. a few of them are dead. but there are still a few of them on capitol hill. brian: who are some of the ones who are not around anymore who were sexual harassers? donna: let's just say that john, who i have had an opportunity to king holidayng the effort, i never had any problems with mr. conyers. i did know of some of the women who have come forward. i think it is important that women are able to be heard and that we believe them and in due time, i do think there will be a new policy on capitol hill. women are not going to be silent anymore. brian: you lost your job as the dukakis campaign because of what you said about george herbert walker bush and accused him of

adultery. he's been a little bit in the media recently. would you do that today, looking back at it? were you right back then? donna: that day when i sort of unleashed didn't go by the talking points. who were the press assailing michael dukakis for lack of energy in the black community, i said look at the campaign of george dubya bush -- george h.w. bush. but the iran-contra controversy, and look at the "washington post" accusations of adultery. that was not my job. it was unprofessional. i resigned that afternoon and did penance. i apologized to mr. bush and had an opportunity years later to go

to the bush library in texas. i was totally off my mark, and that was wrong. brian: if you were offered head of the democratic national committee again under the circumstances, would you take it? , having servedy as chair twice, again, i started as an intern. i have been involved in every political cycle, including the most recent one in 2017. that is 31 midterm or off year cycles, 11 presidential cycles. i think it is important for people like myself who have been around the country several times -- i like what i am doing now. i am focused on cyber literacy, cyber security, the hacking that lace in the election, how we prevent that from happening

again, how we tool campaigns and campaign officials and staff. i care about my country more than my party. love the democratic party a lot, but i care about my country, and i want us to prepare for future attempt to hack our democracy, our infrastructure. think that is the best use of by time going forward. brian: let me ask you about the party for a second. annie sanders has said he is independent, a socialist, and all this. why would the party allow him to jump in during the presidential election and then go right back to being an independent socialist? is that what the party represents? donna: the party gave him an opportunity to have a seat at the table, just like democrats on capitol hill allowed mr. sanders to caucus with them. bernie sanders as long as i have known hillary clinton. bernie came to support jesse jackson as a democratic socialist mayor of burlington.

he became a member of congress. he played a hell of a role in the jackson campaign getting progressives to come on bird -- on board. he campaigned as an antiestablishment candidate in the 2016 cycle. there was a lot of excitement for him with democrats and independents. i believe he deserved to have a seat at the table. going forward, the party has to be inclusive. it has to be open to new voices and new faces, and i would hope that the democratic party will allow independents to come in and be a part of the system, but they have to become part of the democratic party. we have to strengthen the party. we cannot weaken it. we have to strengthen it from the inside out. brian: a lot to show you some video, only 23 seconds long. i think you call donald duck "the damn duck." then you can tell us a story.

donald duck, i am asking today as his representative, we are here to ask why he is ducking releasing his tax returns? one of the reasons he might be doing that? brian: why you get so mad about the duck? donna: i couldn't get rid of the damn duck. is the intellectual property of disney, the parent company of abc news. my colleagues called us and said, that is our. that's our duck, donalds our duck, the character from walt disney. i thought, if this is our duck,

let me just end this story and going get another kind of duck. calls began to make phone to end the duck controversy, i was told that i couldn't. i said, no, i can, i am the chair of the party. i kept going back and forth. finally i got all the way up to the top, and he said, one of hillary's friends thought this was a great idea. i said, yeah, but she is a devout desk she is about to go to a fundraiser in california. iger is going to be there. he is the head of disney. i was just trying to take a break from the campaign, a couple of days off. i couldn't get rid of the damn duck, so i went all the way up to the top. brian: in your book, here is a scenario you describe about donors.

this is some event in the backyard of somebody's house. a fundraiser. donna: yes. brian: "as you stand in this beautiful groom to backyard next to huge platters of steaks, , you get and plans interrogated by the high dollar donors who pepper you with questions about what the party intends to do about the issue they consider to be the most important. how you respond to these questions determines the amount these donors will give. these are smart people who know a tremendous amount about the subject they are questioning you on, see you cannot give vague answers. you have to be on your toes. you also have to look confident and casual and show that you are not manipulating or hiding anything." you also have said you are for taxpayers paying for these campaigns.

what is wrong with that scenario you just pointed out in your book? donna: look, these are high dollar donors. they support the democratic party. they were either supporters of barack obama or secretary clinton. advance, meaning i would go in advance of the candidates. they like to tell you how to run the campaign, how to run the country. the issues that are important to them. just recently, when my book come out, i had one say, why didn't you really see her book after the election in virginia? i said, did you go down there and raise money and talk to the voters? i did. not just a seat at the table, but they want to control what is on the menu. i needed the money because i

need to remediate from the hacking, because the dnc had to raise it's a money. listen touck it up, them, smile a lot, and try to give the very best answers and get home as soon as possible and wash your mouth out with chardonnay or something. brian: this is not a trick question, but i am not sure i will ask it the right way. how can you tell when a politician is speaking the truth? donna: i have always known. because i get to know the person. i get to know their truth. i get to know them as an individual. i cannot give up my life and my time and spend time away from my family without having some kind of connection to the individual i'm going to be working for. there's never enough money. it is not about the money. it is about the love of your country. i have learned over the years working with campaigns and candidates that if they lied to you, you know when they lie to you. i will give you a good example.

1984, jesse jackson. i was a kid. i said, did you say that? i've got to go in and tell my friends who are very close to you and the civil rights movement. they want to know if you made this ethnic slur. i need to tell them. the truth really matters to me. the reverend said to me at the time, no, i didn't say that. when it came out later that he said it, it broke my heart. it broke my heart because he had he set it, it was wrong to say it, i am going to make amends and apologize. i would out there and said, the reverend said it. he was wrong to say it. he is going to make amends for it, and the rest is history. so whenever a candidate tells you one thing and there is something else, you're disappointed. but they are human beings. you give them an opportunity to make amends and ask forgiveness, but most of the time i try to

tell them i just cannot cover up a lie. it is hard. brian: would do you think of jesse jackson today? donna: i love him. i wish him the very best. if there is anyone who can fight parkinson's is reverend jackson. he gave me a seat at the table. he taught me when i got to that table to stand up for what is right, for justice and equality. i probably know more about the bible listening to an old baptist preacher, but he was like my brother. he checked on me when i was al gore's campaign manager. he wanted to make sure i was ok, if i needed anything, if i needed him. now i get a chance to check on him, to call him. i am part of his family, part of the jackson family for life. i love him. he is a brother, and i will always love him. brian: what happened to his kid? donna: i know five of his kids. brian: and talking about jesse jackson junior. donna: oh, i don't know what happened to jesse jr.

i went to the house to visit them. he is doing really well. he had a rough time. i don't know what happened between him and his wife emma but i want to continue to be supportive of reverend jackson and his entire family. 20 years ago, this is a clip from the article in "the washington post" about you. 20 years ago you said this. "if we don't change the culture of american politics, people are going to give up on democracy, and pretty sure the only people elected will be people with money in their pocket." donna: that was spot on. it is happening. brian: 20 years later, is democracy in trouble? donna: yes. our democracy is at risk. we have had what i call the perfect storm. we have high dollar candidates, the koch brothers on the right. on the left, we now have tom steier.

theire people who have resources that are putting out normal everyday americans who might be able to make a difference. money and politics is polluting our democracy. low voter turnout, voter suppression. we need a 21st century voting rights act. i think our democracy is in trouble not just from the electoral hacking we saw, but social platforms changing our civil discourse. we need to spend time revitalizing our democracy. brian: you say this in your book, "i never forgot that it in 2003 told some of the party leaders to pay attention to a talented young illinois state senator named barack obama." where did you hear that? that is a long time ago. did she regret doing that? donna: i hope not.

i can tell you i was here in washington dc at 10th and g street, not far from here. hillary was very excited. she had met this young state senator who was running. she has roots in illinois. she met this young state senator tom and told my good friend -- senator, told my good friend. i didn't know barack obama. , know a lot of other people danny davis and carter collins and harold washington, rahm emanuel, but i hadn't heard of a barack obama. so we met him that spring of 2003, and let me just say this mother rest is history. i was this, the rest is history. -- this, the rest is history. i was so excited after meeting him. we later told alexis herrman, the former labor secretary in the clinton-gore administration.

we told bill lynch, the deputy mayor of new york city. we told everybody we could in the kerry campaign up to john kerry. we found some video footage. we sent it to the campaign, and he was chosen as the keynote speaker in 2004. i didn't get involved in the primary in 2008. i didn't get involved in the primary in 2016. as a party leader, i wanted to give both candidates -- people would say to me, you got to be for barack obama. i said yes, i am black. i am a woman also. but i am getting old and grumpy, and maybe i will like john mccain. at the end of the day, when may 31, 2008 can around, there is a big meeting in the rules and bylaws committee that the dnc held, and i supported obama's proposal to give the disputed delegates in florida and

michigan, that we would parcel them out to both candidates, not one. that was enough, along with the superdelegates who came on board , the fact that president obama -- well, then senator obama -- won enough delegates in the last contest june 3 that allowed him to become the nominee of the different party. brian: you talk about your catholicism, your deep religious faith. we also talked about tricking at one time -- drinking at one time and huffing. i want to ask you this. there is this sentence in the book -- and you have basically used the words all the time -- this is after the whole thing about cnn and the apology and all of that stuff. i am going to quote you. you know, "f" 'em.

i have a playful side, but i also have a dolores, the part of me that is spitting mad and not afraid to fight. if people look at me and all i have done in my life and finally by that one questionable incidents, there are no -- they are no friends of mine. at this point in my journey on ."is earth why the language? donna: i knew that my life would never be the same. i said, give me time to get home to washington dc. 14 years, a lot of traveling. i knew cnn had not given me any questions. i couldn't prove that if they would allow me to get home to get my computer or to get to my office and get to my server. i said, i can find anything, but

i cannot deal with it because wikileaks is corrosive. to have spamware, spyware, malware. and had already lost a sustained shall -- they have spamware, spyware, malware. i had already lost a substantial amount because of that, and i said, i need to get home because i have protection on those devices. before i got to the airport in atlanta, i had already begun to get death threats. by the time i walked up the stairs at my house, there was a thaticious package the driver who brought me home came up and took a picture of, and we got it dealt with. it angered me that i could never get to the bottom of it because i couldn't get to my emails. some of them were ripped apart. but cnn, the way in which -- not just cnn -- but the media, it was as if they had to rip me

apart. it is one thing to chastise me. i've been chastised before. i chastise others. but to rip me apart and put my life in danger, that was uncalled for. ,ow today, those same reporters that network plus others, they get ripped apart, they get threatened by the same forces, the same manner that they unleashed on me. every time that happens, i reach out to them and say, it is going to be ok. it is going to be all right. it is going to be ok. brian: you often in the book talk about donald trump. us everything you think about donald trump. donna: when i first met him, he was the most charming individual on the planet. he wanted to get to know you. he is a charmer. he really is a good charmer. i said to myself, he is a great

salesperson. in 2015. back look, i was on television. i said, you know what? that guy could go places. disruptive, but interesting person. never before had we had a reality tv star. we had tv stars. ronald reagan was a movie star. but never before a reality tv star. i said, he knows this medium very well. i showed his campaign every ounce of respect, like i show every campaign. you talk about their strategy, their weaknesses, the campaign, the campaign trail. there came a moment late in the cycle when donald trump decided that he had to go after me personally. every night that donald trump went after me -- again, the death threats would come, the

bots, the trolls, these individuals impersonating americans who were not americans -- it became extremely toxic. this year i had to go to church and pray for donald trump. i actually had to ask the lord for help because i had a lot of anger around donald trump, and i didn't want that. i wanted help in releasing the anger, as well as to break for him and his family because he is the president of our country -- to pray for him and his family because he is the president of our country. want the president to be successful because i want the country to be successful. i tried to release some of that anger towards donald trump. brian: you have it in the book, though. donna: i was angry with him. you would be too if someone went out every night, and every time he spoke my name, you don't know who she is. what is he attacking me for? i am not the candidate. he just attacked me personally. brian: and it worked.

donna: it worked very well. brian: "i have worked with men all my life in politics and i can sense when they get to this part about not being able to deal with a woman. this was not a racial thing. this was a gender thing. they time you mention that are trying to shut you down because you are a woman and all of these guys are like, 'no, no , and iould not say that would not act like someone who is asking for permission.' logicalven them all reasons why i needed, on board. i had run out of rational arguments." what you think about men? donna: i had to fight my way to the table. nobody gave me a chance. i brought a folding chair that i thought would allow me to make a difference, to have a voice at the table. and yet there were times when guys only wanted to have other guys.

they didn't want to have women in the room. , to be how to organize field directors, communication directors, strategists, fundraisers, etc. when you are in charge, whether the campaign manger or party chair, all you want to do is set the table so everyone can have a say, not make it a special place for only special people. here i was the chair of the party, and i wanted to bring in people who i thought could help party. tom was the executive director of the dnc when howard dean was chair. he implement of the 50 state strategy. tom mcmahon had been involved in politics as long as i had come up i wanted somebody with his experience. he is from nebraska. i am from louisiana. i wanted somebody at the table and new little bit about politics, and i had to fight to get him at the table. that is when i knew this is not male/k/white thing or a

female thing. it was generational. they thought people like me and tom had long past their prime. but you know it never goes out of style? talking to people. listening to people. do matter how much life and technology changes -- we all have these great devices now that communicate -- there is nothing like walking into a community and saying, good morning, can we talk about a candidate? brian: you say in your book that -- and you would knowledge that in martha's vineyard there's a large black community that goes up there, very well-to-do -- here is the question come a wide you write, "i never felt i fit in there among the black elite ?" donna: i grew up in the segregated south. by mother was a made. my father -- was a maid. my father was a janitor.

they raised us with a lot of love, but i never felt that the folks who live in uptown new orleans liked us, respected us, cared for us. they made fun of us because we were not city kids. we didn't wear the right clothes. mye i am now having finished second tour at harvard. i have spent now three summers going to martha's vineyard. i am more comfortable now that i have ever been in my life in all circles, in all circumstances, but there's no question that the been of my childhood have the kind that i have had to heal over the years. they are not always scars of racism. they are scars of sexism, classism, elitism. but i am a better, stronger

person's day because i have been able to live in such a way that i have tried to learn and i have tried to respect every buddy. brian: the name of the book is "hacks," and you can hear a lot more about what donna think thet the hacking story, inside story of the break-ins and breakdowns that put donald trump in the white house. thank you. donna: thank you. ♪ [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2017] announcer: for free transcripts or to give us your comments about this program, visit us at qanda.org. our programs are also available as podcasts.

announcer: if you enjoyed this week's interview with donna brazile, here are some other programs you might like. "new york times" columnist and author maureen dowd talks about the 2016 presidential campaign. "washington post" political reporter robert costa about the 2016 campaign and donald trump, and "new york times" reporter chozick about covering the hillary clinton campaign. c-span's "washington journal," live every day with news and policy issues that impact you. coming up monday morning on new year's day, we are taking your calls asking what is your message to washington in the new year.

political analysts from around the country will weigh in on issues in 2018. be sure to watch c-span's "washington journal" live at 7:00 eastern monday morning. join the discussion. reviewsr: next, the bbc the significant events in the british parliament. then a discussion on the impact of white house chiefs of staff. p.m., another chance to see donna brazil talking about her book "hacks." announcer: the british parliament is in recess for the holidays. prime minister's questions returns january 10. reviews theliament events that happened since the summer in the british house of commons, including brexit negotiations, budget issues, and relations with president