our shutdown coverage will resume after our newsmakers program. the senate is in session. there might be a late-night vote in the senate tonight. talks continue off the floor about a possible three be continuing resolution. the house is in recess on capitol hill waiting for further senate action. senate coverage is on c-span2. if the house comes in, it will be lit on c-span. all of our coverage is available at c-span.org. next up, newsmakers here on c-span. susan: our guest on "newsmakers" this week is representative virginia foxx, republican of north carolina. the chair of education and workforce committee. a former educator and college administrator, which brings expertise to the writing of this legislation that was recently passed out of her committee and soon scheduled for floor action. thank you for being our guest. let me introduced the two reporters who will ask

questions. both of them cover education beats for their publication michelle hackman of "wall street . journal" and michael stratford of "politico." as we get started, we are taking -- taping this on thursday, yesterday, betsy devos gave a well-covered speech where she was highly critical of the bush and obama era law, no child left behind and essentially said it , had no tangible results and is seen as the death knell of -- -- of the federal education departments. is your critique of the legislation as strong as hers? no tangible results? rep. foxx: only knows what the research has shown. no child left behind had great motivation behind it. the title, no child left behind, make sure every child receives

as long and as good of an education as you could possibly give him or her. in the implementation phase by the bureaucrats, they put -- carved up cells of students come up with them in little cells and did an enormous amount of testing. i think it is a bad/good example of micromanaging at the federal level going wrong. it is just not good for the federal government to try to run education policy with the figures country that we have. i was a school board member for 12 years and sometimes i would ask why are we doing this? , and then say because washington said for us to do it. it made no sense and yet, our administrators would try their

best to do what they were told to do. education is best left to the states and localities. people in states and localities know how to provide good education and the history of our country shows that. we want to move from k-12 education to the university level and turned it over to michael for first questions. michael: last month, your committee passed the prosper act, the reauthorization of the higher education act, a comprehensive rewrite of the law in nearly a decade. before we dive into the substance of it, can you talk about the process, when should we see it on the house floor, and do we see commitment from leadership on when we would vote on it? rep. foxx: first let me say i believe it is the first reform for secondary education since the federal government got

involved. it is true reform. yes, we have dark with the -- we have talked with the leadership and we have begun due diligence in preparing to bring the bill to the floor. we have not talked about a specific date with the majority leader's office. we know it we have to do. there is a lot of work goes on between the time a bill passes the committee and the time it is on the floor. committee reports have to be filed. we need to be talking to a lot of groups of people within our conference. i had begun doing that. but there is a lot of work to do. we want to bring it up as soon as we possibly can. we know we will be working on job opportunity reform through welfare reform, and the two will often go together.

i am anxious and the members of committee are anxious, because they worked very hard on the legislation. this is really a committee product. everyone of the committee members was interviewed by staff as to what he or she would like to see in the bill. i am the chairwoman of the committee and my name is first. it is truly a committee product. michelle: i wanted to ask you a little bit about some aspects of the bill that address opportunities for career and technical education. i know you frequently talk about that our current two-year and four-year institutions do not always prepare people for the workforce. how does your bill address the gap and give us specific examples. rep. foxx: a great question.

i do feel very keenly that are post secondary education, and some of the elements of secondary education have not done what they should to help students be prepared for the workforce. i really have evidence -- we have 6.2 million jobs in the country unfilled right now. i often ask groups of people and individuals why did you get a degree? why did you go to school? everybody invariably answers -- to get a job. something is wrong with all the money that we are putting into our education in the country, we now have over 6 million jobs that are unfilled and yet people are graduating from high school, people are graduating from community colleges, graduating

from college, although too many are dropping out, frankly, and those jobs are not filled. what we are attempting to do and i think we do very well at it is we are encouraging innovation, we are pushing schools to look at outcomes. we asking creditors to look at outcomes. even demanding more transparency on the part of colleges and universities, and we are saying we want students to know what their chances are of finishing their major, number one. number two, getting a job in the major. number three likely what their , salary would be in a first position in their major. we want students and parents to

get a lot more information. i am a huge believer in early college programs. and everywhere i go i push that david when i was at appalachian state university in the 1970's, appalachia was offering courses in high schools through high school teachers and students , were graduating from high school with 30 hours of appalachian credit that they could transfer anywhere. i am also a firm believer in students getting as much of their work from community college before they attempt to go to a baccalaureate program. you will see me avoid using four-year degree programs because they are not four-year degree programs anymore. they are six-year degree programs. almost every school is measuring them in that terminology. i try to start using the year terminology and talk about high

school, community college, baccalaureate degrees. stackableouraging credentials. we are saying we would like to see them more innovation, and frankly, there is a lot going on i have found in the course of working on this bill where students in high school are getting college credit and they are then going on, getting certificates and diplomas and aas degrees which normally do not answer to a baccalaureate, but they are transferring to a baccalaureate. we are encouraging all of those arrangements through this bill. michael: you mentioned student outcomes. as you well know, one of the criticisms of the bill, including from some in your own conference on the republican side, is that it does not go far enough in allowing the federal government to measure and

calculate actual outcomes of the students attending the nation's colleges and universities because it does not repeal a federal prohibition on the student unit record system which would allow the education department to better track across institutions and across states the performance of colleges. are the outcome of students i know you authored the original ban which prohibits that data collection. are there alternatives you are open to as the bill moves forward that would give the education department the ability to better track student outcomes in colleges and provide that information to consumers? rep. foxx: we have put into the bill a study. i have listened to the members. while a couple of them had disagreed with me on repealing

the student unit ban, they agreed with me we probably were not ready to do that because a lot of work would have to be done. we have in the bill a study to look at this and see is there a way to gather additional information that would not be in the hands of the federal government and would not be identifiable to a particular student. that is the concern of most people. i am very concerned about protecting people's privacy. i think you all are quite aware of the attitude, not just in congress but in the country related to the government capturing information on individual americans. the proposal being offered would have captured information, personal information, on all

students in college, not just those getting financial aid. i felt that was an overreach. what we are going to do, and i'm very serious about this study. i would like see it done. if there is a mechanism for doing this, we will look at that. i think the members of the committee, certainly on the other side of the aisle are satisfied with that. they have a word that there will be a study, and i will promote the study. it is not a study that will go nowhere that takes 20 years. i think it can be done in a shorter period of time. michelle: if that study shows more collection of data on individual student level is necessary, would you be willing to make that reform? rep. foxx: let's see what the study does say.

i am not convinced yet that it can be the collection of data kept separate from the ability to identify with a particular person. and that is one of my main concerns, that you not be able to take this personal data and connect it to an individual and that is in the hands of the federal government. frankly we have seen too many , data breaches in the federal government for me to feel comfortable, particularly now. but i'm willing to look at it. michelle: i want to ask you about another large aspect of your legislation, which is remaking the federal student loan program. i know your and the senate chairman vision is to create a unified student loan program, a unified grant program, and you

have been criticized for that. it sounds like a simplified system, but also your critics it eliminates some .f the aid how would you address that criticism? rep. foxx: we don't eliminate any funding. we have done no cuts in funding for financial aid for the bill. we have simplified it. i have heard since i was in washington, d.c. that the fafsa is impossible to deal with, the loan programs are very confusing. we have too many grant programs, they are very confusing. so we are again responding to the public and to our members. we have members who have children who have gone to college in recent times. they have dealt with these issues. i have a grandson who is a junior in college. i have listened to his mother

complain about filling out the fafsa for him and about the intricacies of financial aid. our goal is to help students to look for ways to be able to complete a college education with a minimum of hassle, but that's particularly as it relates the financial aid. i graduated from college without any debt. a lot of people look at me and ago itt was so long , is not possible. but it is possible. i think with the right kinds of transparency, with continuing the financial aid that we currently have, helping students be better consumers, that we will see a reduction in the number of students borrowing money and better help coming from colleges and universities.

-- i've done an article with the president of the university of kentucky. i know he will not mind talking about this. they were concerned about retention. they were losing a lot of students at the end of the freshman year. they looked at the students who were dropping out. they found a large segment of the students were b students. what they found out was that those students needed $6,000 more in financial aid in order to continue in the sophomore year. they set up their quickly a program where they could give institutional aid to those students because they knew the students were worthwhile continuing. they were b students. i think more and more schools can do those kinds of things internally and they are. many years ago, they started

doing freshman seminars to try to help students dropping out at the end of freshman year because they felt alienated. a lot of this is up to individual schools. when they admit a student and they are there for a year, they have invested a lot in the student. the student has invested invest a lot in the institution. but the institutions have a responsibility to find out why the students aren't continuing a lot of the time. i would like to see institutions stepping up more to help the students. when i was a college administrator in faculty member, i said this to other faculty, we have made a commitment to the students when we admit them to help them be successful. we need to look for ways to make that happen. susan: seven minutes left. michael: another thing your legislation would do would end the federal program that

canceled after 10 years the federal student loans of students who worked in nonprofit or other public service jobs. this was put in the law by president george w. bush and some bipartisan support when it passed 10 years ago. what is the rationale for ending the program? rep. foxx: once again, the federal government is taking winners and losers. there are some studies that even done that show that many of the public service jobs that people were going into and having their loans forgiven for paid as well or better than private sector jobs. if one went into a public-sector job, one was getting one's loans paid back. in a private sector job, you did not have that.

we think all students should be treated the same peer we think fairness is the issue. my hope is we bring down the cost to the federal government cannot bring down the cost to directly. the federal government can make things easier for students and i think colleges and universities. hopefully that will mean students will not have to borrow as much money. students will be treated the same in the bill. that is what our country is founded on, treating people the same. michelle: i wanted to ask you a broader question about the current state of higher education. you and some republican colleagues have said you feel like these institutions are increasingly failing students and that public opinion has started to turn against them. people have pointed to tax legislation that you just past. -- passed. there was going to be a tax on

graduate students, and the aid that they received. how do you feel like those institutions of higher education can address the lagging public support that they have? rep. foxx: well, much of it will be up to them and probably somewhat related to the students they are serving, the community they are in. i know when i was the community college president, i told faculty our middle name is community. that is what we are here for, to serve our community. i went out to the community and asked, what is it you need us to do? i talked to the business community. that was 18 years old when i went there and they said your the first person who has ever been here who asked us what we need. that is unacceptable. because college and universities are there to serve the

people of their communities of , their state. some do it very well. a lot of it will be up to the colleges and universities in the areas they serve. i talked to the president of the school recently where the faculty totally changed the curriculum because enrollment was going way down. they saw that and said we have got to make radical changes to survive. i don't think it is up to the federal government to tell the schools how to operate. they need to find which niche is good for them and meet the needs of their communities. enrollments are going down. i read the other day that fewer foreign students are coming to the united states to go to school. we have a demographic dip right now in terms of what the birth rate was 18 years ago. colleges and universities

haven't in the past had to respond to those kinds of pressures. business and industry in this country does do that. they adjust. unfortunately, i do not think colleges and universities have been quick enough to see that they are out of touch in many cases. there was a big article in one of your publications, i do not remember which, that said college presidents were stunned when they read these surveys that said they are no longer relevant. something is wrong with that. what a college president says they are so out of touch, they do not know what the public is thinking. host: three minutes left. michael: going back to the legislation, the senate is moving forward with its own separate track for rewriting the higher education law. how are you working with your colleagues in the senate on this. i know only one support by

republicans, but lamar alexander is interested in doing a bipartisan bill, which would have to look somewhat different than your legislation. where do you see the biggest flashpoint between what you are pushing and what you might see in a bipartisan bill in the senate? rep. foxx: i talk to lamarr on a regular basis and he was excited we were moving forward with the act. i can't wait for you to get it passed out of the house and send it over to us. as you know they have been , focused on health and have much larger assignments of health legislation in the committee. i do not know for sure that lamarr will be able to put together a post secondary bill or reauthorization, the higher ed will. my emphasis is on getting our

bill out of the house and to the senate. then we will work much more closely on what is going to be possible. we passed the schools act, which rewrote workforce development legislation back in 2013. it sat in the senate for 14 months, and the senate was not able to write its own legislation so they took up the skills act, changed its title. we got much of what we wanted out of the bill. i'm a realist and i understand how the senate works. i understand they have to go to in a much more bipartisan way in almost all cases. i think it is important we pass a bill out of the house and get it to the senate. susan: one minute left. michelle: i heard you just say that you are not sure whether chairman alexander will be able to write his own bill this year. what you think the chances are that you will successfully

reauthorize the higher education act this year? rep. foxx: i am very optimistic. i really am. as i talked to members of the house, i feel very positive. every day, i have employers coming into my office saying we do not have the skilled workforce we need. every member of congress is getting that same message. i have asked. what the public needs to do to the congress is what it needs to do with its own educational institutions, demand changes that will give to them the skilled workforce that they need. do you know what is going to happen? if we don't do it, and secondary education doesn't do it, they will do it themselves. they will create programs within the workforce where they will

produce the skilled workers they need. my message to higher education is you better pay attention to said.s being my message to other members of congress is we have a need out there. that is why you have a government, to help meet the need. susan: that is it for our time. thank you very much for being our guest. rep. foxx: thank you for having me. you have a great panel. michael: thanks. michelle: thank you. susan: "newsmakers" is back after our interview with the chair of the educational workforce committee, virginia foxx of north carolina. michelle hackman of "wall street journal" and michael stratford of "politico." the bill that passed out of committee is the proper act, which means promoting real opportunity, success and prosperity education reform. michael stratford, you pointed out it did not pass with democrats support. what are their objections to the legislation as crafted? michael: democrats argued the bill would take away a lot of

the safeguards and guardrails for federal money flowing into colleges and universities, particularly for-profit colleges. the bill would wipe out much of the obama era restrictions and regulations on for-profit schools and efforts to curb abuses in the industry. that is a major objective they have. they also argue the bill does not go far enough in addressing root causes of college affordability. and student aid is a good idea but in practice, that in some cases might harm students in the -- nba reduction in the amount of money they have available to go to college. susan: michelle, this legislation is 52 years old, written well before the digital age came to universities and college tuition's came up so high. what about on the senate side, the above-mentioned is a bipartisan effort. is there any evolving view that

you know upon chairman alexander's committee about what needs to be done to a dress college education in our current society? michelle: i think the current legislation written by virginia represent the priorities of lamarr alexander, the chairman of the committee. he is in favor of streamlining federal loan programs and federal grant programs, and simplifying the form. has a shtick where he waits around the fafsa. we are treating the bill as a republican wish list of ideas that senator alexander will have to work with the top democrat on his committee, patty murray, to write a bill that could attract democratic votes. it will ultimately need 60 votes to pass the senate. susan: the other component is the trump administration. are there signals about what they will support? michael: the white house

quietly released a one pager on principles for authorizing the higher education act when house republicans released their bill last month. it is largely in line with what the house republicans are doing. education secretary betsy devos has not been particularly vocal on higher education issues. she is focused mostly on k-12 will education which is where her experience is. we have not heard very clearly from a trump administration since they have an office what they want to see in a higher education bill. candidate trump talks about relieving the burden of student debt on the campaign trail and also talks about going after colleges, endowments, the aid colleges received from the federal government, to them working on ways to reduce

college tuition. we have not seen a piece of legislation they have specifically backed. susan: in the minute we have left we did not get to these in , our questions, but the bill also has a number of social components. tell us about the highlights. the sort of things we expect that the senate would not really for in her legislation. >> there is also drug and alcohol training required with emphasis on opioid. >> that is right.

that is right. it unusual to wrap into legislation sh. >> it is. generally, the republicans in congress like to remove the government's influence as much as possible from departureand you see from that in the legislation collegesdictating to how they should handle the hut button issues. when you work the sources on capitol hill, are they as well? >> not so much. be a tough climb to get higher education act bill cleared in either chamber much less pass all of congress conference committee report. as we mentioned, the bipartisan in the senate may not produce bill that actually is bipartisan. some think, there is concern from -- the ache it

could woo get democratic support in the senate could be tough to opening from this republicans. >> well, a quick comment? a real question whether the committee in the senate can break away from health care long enough to write a bill. susan: thank you for the for chairman fox, we appreciate your time. >> en thank you. >> just after 6:30 eastern, 42 hours into the government shutdown, coverage continuing here on c-span. the senate is in session this evening. that is over on the companion network c-span2. the day throughout include hearing on the floor right now. watch that onator c-span2 or c-span. org. todayuse came in earlier