there. hearing the percentages of democrats and republicans is really refreshing. i do believe the bridge between the democrats and republicans is really what is kind of holding this country from moving forward. think barack obama was dealing with this very well. even michelle obama is the first to admit she has a huge [indiscernible] go to new york. independent line. guest: good morning. caller: i want to applaud your group's effort to support the ethical side to add to congress. my question is, i watch c-span and i read and watch the news. a bodywe expect to have like the congress to be full of integrity, to be ethical, when as mentioned, in regards to the abramoff,mittee, jack

-- thebying that congress members police themselves. the budget, the earmarks conflict as well. we see these conflicts over and over again. there is not a group, an office, to enforcetion ethics, to have ethics. the rules and regulations you want -- if the office is not --perly staffed and enforced i hear how low the rates in the house are reprimanded. guest: the first thing i want to point out -- i know a lot of times when you talk about ethics in politics, i have gotten two reactions. .ne is the full employment

the other is, ethics and politics is an oxymoron. the former 9/11 commission chair and longtime representative, lee howlton, has talked about important maintaining ethical conduct is in congress. many people think it is per referral or aspirational. he describes it as, it lies at the heart of the proper functioning of congress. it is essential to its legitimacy. that being said, it is understandable that when you put people in positions of power, actions they take that might be perfectly acceptable when they were private citizens take on a wholly different kind of conflict and raise other questions. is a concept here -- maybe some people have heard about reciprocity. that means that most people in private life -- if someone does something nice for you, you are

supposed to do something nice for them. someone opens the door when you go in, next time you may open the door for that person. this keeps things working well in a civil society. when you translate reciprocity to people in power, the whole equation changes. it is not that they are worse than the rest of us, corrupt. human beings. the difference is, they have been put in positions of power. a newakes on responsibility, new restrictions. the things they may have done that would be acceptable as private citizens no longer apply when you are in positions of power. that is why you need good ethics rules and effective enforcement. host: congressional ethics, we from diana in deadwood, oregon,

democrats line. thank: i just want to everybody for letting me speak on the issue. i don't have internet, so it is a real drag. to begin with, i do think the gerrymandering as well as everything our president himself has done, ignoring our constitution -- these things are illegal. this is definitely the ethics community, or ethics groups' job. if you cannot get things done legally, talk to america. get on the regular news and talk about these things to america, because they are not hearing it. i think if they did, they would have the sense to see the worst of it. host: let me follow up her comments and ask about follow-up in congress in your ethics blind spot report. you write that the house and senate too often allow the politicizeittee to investigations and delay many of them for years. one faced with the task of passing judgment, the committees

tend to wait for matters of congress to resign, lose reelection, or leave office voluntarily. in the house, this has happened at least 15 cases since 2009. if there are cases of financial malfeasance, are there clawback abilities of congress to somehow penalize a member if he retires? guest: once the member leaves congress, leaves office, that committeethe ethics has no jurisdiction over that member. there are times where the ethics committee has in fact required members to stay in congress to pay back money. former speaker newt gingrich was actually find -- fined and had to pay back money related to the book sales a conductive. but once someone leaves, the jurisdiction is over. there have been times where the matteree has referred a to the department of justice, if

there is a criminal question involved. we have seen those cases. for example, jesse jackson, convicteded up being and served time for malfeasance in his campaign accounts. it has to be an egregious and willing violation to get to that level. many of these others never do. times, with the ethics committee does is cross their fingers and hope someone leaves. host: patricia on our republican line. caller: somehow, congress and ethics just does not seem to go together. my question is this. why not an independent commission? you were mentioning something about that it might not be constitutional. but i think that is the road to go on. it seems better suited than having a house committee and a senate committee investigating its own membership.

that seems a little too cozy, doesn't it? guest: i would say we looked at it. if you look at article one, section five of the u.s. constitution, it actually says that it is the responsibility of each body to discipline its own members. that is articulated in the constitution. that is why there was this effort that we made several years ago to create this office of congressional ethics, at least on the house side, because what we were trying to do at that point is say, there needs to be an independent investigatory authority, with the hope that the ethics theittee would simply be in business of adjudication, or making the decision. if they could be held accountable by their constituents for the decisions that they made as members of the ethics committee -- that is why this particular setup exists in the house. i would note that we also made an effort to create an office of

congressional ethics on the senate side. in the end, my recollection is back in 2007, we only got about 35 votes on the senate side. as much as there are lots of tensions between this independent investigatory office and the house ethics committee, if you look on the senate side, there is no independent investigative authority. the allegations go into the committee. unless they come out, you really know what happens. it is a real problem on the senate side. if you look at the record of the ethics committee, you would assume that of all the senators, all the staff, there had been no ethics problems that had been publicly disclosed in the last 10 years. maybe just one or two. this is a real problem on the senate side. but i think when people were looking at this -- as you can imagine, a lot of legal scholars looked at it.

there were some folks that did support an independent agency. but in the end, i think the preponderance of the evidence was that that would not pass constitutional muster. host: concurrent with our conversation this morning, ethics and political scandal front and center on politico this morning. an article headlined "the frat house of representatives." the past year in congress has been a lowlight reel of nonstop unethical and potentially illegal behavior. just quickly -- potshots, it in potshots,- infidelity, and the infamous bro caucus. welcome to the frat house of representatives. this is separate from your report. has it seemed worse in the house in the past year or so to you? guest: i think like most things that happen in society, you do see these kind of times where it seems like there is a lot of cases, and then it kind of tails off, and anytime you have a

scandal, it gets a lot of attention. but i do think when you hear these kinds of reports, that it makes you wonder to what degree there has been both effective ethics enforcement, but another side to that -- and this is another bone we have to pick, and that is ethics training, which is calling members and staff in and making them very clear what the rules are, on a regular basis. i would note on the senate side, once you get elected, the rules require a senator to have one training, and that could have been 20 years ago. this notion that there is not regular training -- the other thing i would say in my experience of many years and politics is that the members of congress that our elected are pretty much a reflection of the rest of society. whether you like it or not, in many ways, i think they reflect what is going on in the culture generally. host: didn't the house just

-- requiringort of some sort of sexual harassment training? i am not sure where it stands. guest: the bill is now pending in the senate. think of the notion that there has not been any kind of regularized training on sexual harassment. i think it would be fair to say, based on the stories we have heard, as well as what you hear from women members of congress in particular, how rampant sexual harassment was on the hill. hopefully, this new move will change that. int: let's hear from sue arizona, independent. caller: almost all my life, i voted democratic, but recently, i voted republican. the thing that has been bothering me lately is, i am hearing that -- they, and they want to talk about, for example, sexual harassment with franken. i was very surprised to see that he did not want to resign, and he was being forced to.

i don't believe the ethics coerceee should force or him to resign. i think it is the job of the voters, the constituents, to vote him in or out of office, and not his peers. case,i think in that actually, that was his own decision. there was not a vote by the ethics committee. there was not a vote by the full senate. this is really his own decision, thinking that obviously he felt that was what he needed to do politically. he could have stayed on and faced kind of the assessment of his voters. he chose not to do that. there have been instances where members have been either censured -- which means they are told they have conducted themselves in an inappropriate have been a few that have been expelled. it is pretty rare. case, with senator franken, that was his own political and personal decision.

was was not anything that sanctioned by either the ethics committee or by the full senate and the other membership. host: here is john, and oregon. go ahead. democrats line. caller: good morning, meredith mcgehee. thank you so much for your work on behalf of open and honest government. questions.o ask two after the congresspeople leave office, are they able to go to work for businesses that they in fact served on committees to regulate? i wish i would have heard this a week ago, because senators wyden and merkley were just in our rural area, and i would have liked to have put the question of the independent ethics on the senate side in front of them. thank you very much.

guest: thank you, yes. i would encourage any of the listeners, the viewers, to ask this question of their senators, and what are they going to do to ensure there is some degree of independent investigatory authority on the senate like? it is a huge gap. on the revolving door, which is what you first raised, there is this question of someone who serves in congress, and then leaves. what do they do after they leave? the revolving door generally refers to members of congress who leave and then become and work here in washington, and come back and lobby colleagues. there are other matters of congress that leave, and their life after congress, do not necessarily lobby, with the interests and matters before them. they're supposed to disclose those job negotiations. that was one of the changes made in the house ethics rules we pushed for in 2007. on the revolving door side, they

are supposed to have a cooling off period, in which after they leave, they cannot come back and lobby former colleagues. the biggest problem with that is that the cooling-off period is too short. there is this notion that the relationships that they formed here, the information that they gained, is going to really continue to be very hot and viable for several years. we have actually supported legislation in the past to extend that cooling-off period, at least two and maybe even five years, so you do not find numbers of congress using what they have learned and gained on the public side for a private interest. i have been a registered lobbyist since 1987. i think lobbying is a useful part of our system. of the constitution

to redress grievances. the problem is not that people go and lobby or are paid to lobby. the problem is the role that ouryists often play in campaign finance system, and in this role of being the fulcrum of how money comes in and out of the system. that israeli where the problem lies. the revolving door i think raises serious questions. the fact that the negotiations are not disclosed, as we would the they would be under rules -- these are issues that are raised when you have members seeongress that come and congress as a stepping stone for the million-dollar job on k street. to maryland,ext jenny, on the republican line. caller: good morning, thank you. you kind of just answered my question. i was about to ask the lobbyist issue, after the politicians left office. you answered. thank you. host: kind of using you a little bit, but appreciate your call. , andll go to baltimore

hear from baltimore. go ahead. caller: how are you today? host: fine, thank you. caller: i cannot help but watch cnn every day, and c-span, and all the news, and try to be part of this. this question -- ethics and morality. ethics training, ethics accountability, ethics is at the core. it is an issue of personal and individual morality. ethics and morality go hand in hand. evolution of humankind and souls to each responsible human being. so i cannot give an answer to another man. they cannot give an answer to me. but we have to consider each other. we have to be accountable and respectful enough to consider each other's thoughts. if we put consideration at the core, that would also be our solution. degradation, and an effectl warming is

of individuals. it is not intellectual masturbation. we use our minds, bodies, and spirits to make decisions, and be persistent, whether we are liberal, democratic, republican. we are looking for solutions. host: he is affecting our collars, saying those we electrified our interests as well. guest: i continue to believe we get the government we deserve. when people complain about our government, my first question is, did you vote? and did you even participate in the system? these are key elements if you want a vibrant democracy. there are democracies all over , what their constitutions look like. calix have gone overseas to countries like belarus and help them write beautiful laws and biffle constitutions. constitutions.

but to make a democracy work, you need an engaged citizenry. and there is the acceptance of norms and traditions that make our system work. that is what differentiates the united states of america from many other countries in the world who may have great constitutions, but who failed to live up to the promise of what democracy should work like. issue onen and what is focusing on, and one of the reasons we put out this report -- there are critical elements here that are essential to making our political system worked again. one is accountability. the other is transparency. those are watchwords we use every day to try to make the system work better. it is never going to be perfect. it is a more perfect union. this is the struggle. we hope that everyone watching today understands that this is on them. viewers and listeners, c-span radio app's and is, can read your report at issue one --

issueone.org. more available at oca. house -- oce.house.gov. co. could we cover ethics issues better than we do now? lines theye are two get a little blurry when the media looks at these ethics issues. one is a tendency to paint everyone with the same brush. you have one or two people that do something wrong, and they say all politicians are corrupt. in being here and lobbying since the 1980's is that most members really do want to come and represent their constituents. the system is done in such a way, particularly the way -- the way they have to spend so much time dialing for dollars -- they are losing a lot of it. that is why you see so many of them deciding to leave. most of the representatives i -- theye across do want

are like businessmen. tell me what the rules are, and i will live by the rules. that there are a lot of gray areas in politics. there is a lot of feelings they are under siege. we need to have very clear processes. we need to make sure members know the rules, and staffers, and get the training they need. you should not be here and do training one time, and 20 years later say, i don't need more training. and we need to make sure that elections -- this goes a little bit back to our gerrymandering question -- but that elections are competitive, that members can be held accountable. get alet's see it we can couple more calls. in texas, good morning to camera -- to kim. caller: i agree with what you said. it is with us, but i think answers lie within our stories. there are stories within our stories within our stories. ethics, to me, is a morality,

like brother said in maryland. all of us are trained in a religion. education, so no it is up to us to get more education. a lot of people don't realize that most of the universities have opened up their ethics to study for free. but do you have the time? to redirect that energy there -- you tap into what the children are suffering with. suffering.n are you tap into what the parents are suffering with. then it ties back to economics. let me take one little quick story. from germany. he immigrated when he was in the 50's. he was a war baby, but he was also a police officer, a german officer, and he studied under hitler's probably in the boy scouts. did i know his story? no, he came over here and served his country, and became a sergeant on the houston police

force. he committed suicide in 1978 because of pills. now i am 17. i get a job in cellular phones. we are just creating cellular phones. now, we have the ability to talk, like right now, and we have built radios within radios. let you go.oing to any quick response to cam? guest: i just remind people that democracy and this system we have is the way that civilized people deal with conflict peacefully. conflict is built into democracy. we should not look at this and say what is wrong with the system, in the sense of, why does conflict exist. the purpose of a democracy is to understand conflict will inevitably exist, and if we have a vibrant democratic system, and we demand ethical standards of our leaders, we have a better chance of resolving those conflicts peacefully. host: we will go to virginia, on the independent line. caller: thanks for this

discussion. i think it is really important. some of these cases seem to go on forever. i year ago, there was a story about this congresswoman from washington who had done something that was questionable with a staffer about fundraising. the case was not being processed, because there was like 105 or 110 pending ethics investigations in congress. is it true? is it like one in five members of congress in the senate have some type of ethics investigation hanging over them? in the senate, the answer is that we have no clue, because the senate is such a blackhole. if there is an investigation going on on the senate side, there is a most almost no public information about how many there are. they put out a report at the end of the year, which has basic numbers, so there is almost no transparency on the senate side. it is very opaque. what i have to say about the house side, is with the creation

of the office of congressional ethics, any of the allegations that go to the office and are passed along -- i want to make important point -- the office of congressional ethics has heard more than 20,000 people raising ethics allegations. and of all those, the number of cases which they said a merited further investigation by the house ethics committee, was 75, give or take. so you can see that they are dismissing the vast majority of allegations that come before them. that is important. i spent time talking to members of congress, saying that the oce is your best friend, because if you get a clean bill of health from them it will have a credible answer and you can say, i have been cleared appeared host: -- cleared. host: you can read the report issue one.org.