users. "washington's journal" at 7:00 eastern tuesday morning. live tuesday on the c-span networks, the house returns for general speeches at 10:00. new members take up legislation regarding banks and financial regulations. senators continue work on a bill to stop online sex trafficking and a resolution calling for the president to promote the u.s. armed forces from the conflict in yemen. beforeevos testifies house appropriations subcommittee on her departments 2019 budget request. next, a panel on the 2020 sent this -- census preparations. the georgetown university law center hosted the former u.s. census bureau director in the

obama and trump administration's. accuracy,luded data cyber security, and modernization. this is an hour and 15 minutes. started?n't we get hello everyone. welcome to georgetown law. we are here to learn about the challenges facing the census 2020. the constitution mandates the census for the purpose of enforcing representation in the house of representatives. during the first congress, james virginia,epresenting recognized the census a lot for data-driven decisions. he encouraged congress to act questions so congress could decide on facts instead of conjecture.

today we have a highly esteemed panel. challengesout these and some of the consequences of the enumeration. director john thompson, the executive director of the council of professional associations on federal statistics. to writer thompson has more than 30 years of experience working in statistical and executive positions at the census bureau. to june 2017,13 he served as the census bureau's director. he served the people for 27 2002 inom 1975 to ,arious positions at the bureau including as associate director responsible for all aspects of the 2000 census. in addition to the census

bureau, thompson has held multiple other positions. he served as president and ceo of norc at the university of chicago. it was a member of the committee on national statistics. as part of his work, he served on two panels related to the 2010 senate. he participated as a member of the step panel and design of the 2010 census program and all the panel reviewing the 2010 census. carrion lowenthal served 14 years as a congressional aide, including eight years in 1987 through 1994 as director of the house census and population subcommittee. since leaving the hill, terry and has remained engaged in this issue. she served on the obama presidential transition team

that and advised on statistical activities. philanthropy, civil rights advocates, stan local governments, and business data users. she is an alumna of georgetown university law. let me say, welcome back. rofessor group to his club -- gupta serves as an adjunct professor of law. the co-author of "counting everyone in the digital age." which can be found on the tables outside and online. law, to joining georgetown he held positions as a congressional aide. he served as national staff on the house ways and means committee.

he held positions with d.c. hunger solution. later he became senior policy adviser at the center on budget and policy priorities. he also serves on the national academy of civil insurances board of directors. a member of the hhs poverty network. , the founding executive director of the institute for constitutional advocacy and protection at georgetown law, where he is also a visiting professor of law. joshua led a team offering a letter to secretary wilbur ross highlighting constitutional and statutory issues with did menstruation failure to fill top leadership positions at the census bureau. prior to joining georgetown law, joshua served as senior director for counterterrorism at the national security council staff, having served as counsel to the

assistant attorney general for national security at the u.s. department of justice. clerk also served as law to the u.s. supreme court. he was editor-in-chief of the yale law journal. thank you very much for participating today and welcome to georgetown. why don't we get started with director thompson? >> thank you. i would like to do three things. talk about why the census is important, talk about what is different between the 2020 as opposed to previous censuses, and lay the groundwork by saying where we are. i think my fellow panelists will cover much more detail. why is the census important? you have heard it is the basis for reapportioned to congress every 10 years.

the data from the census argues insupport fair redistricting every state uses the data, although not every state is required to. the census results are used to allocate over 600 billion dollars in federal funding every year. on private sector relies census data and the american community survey in making a number of decisions. basically, it drives the private sector investment and growth. very importantly, every data collection activity, for the most part, is done in the united states based on collecting data from households, population surveys, like the national health interview survey, the current population survey, which puts month-to-month estimates on

unemployment, all those surveys are made accurate by the controls used by the census. the census is why they are so accurate. that is why there is a lot of concern about a potential for an undercounts in the census. an undercount or lack of representation of a population group would not just affect immediate uses like apportionment and redistricting or fund allocation, it would be dataus for 10 years in the and that lack of representation would carry through. that's why it is so important to get the 2020 census right. so what is different? , you have to that understand that the basic census process was essentially started which menu's census, prepare on. they address list,

you mail that questionnaire to every household on the list, the mailed back, got information was collected thetronically, and then most expensive and difficult part took place. that was going out to collect the information from those that did not mail back their self respond. that operation was paper and pencil. it has been paper and pencil until this census. for this census, the census bureau is looking at primarily three different innovations to take the census. the first is, in terms of preparing the address list, you don't have to walk the country to update the list because of the advent of geospatial tools and materials which will let them, in effect, walk the entire country in an office. where there is any doubt, the census bureau will go out and look in person.

the other area that they are using is the internet. they are allowing response by the internet for the first time. they understand that not everyone has access to the internet. via a paperesponse questionnaire. they also offer response via telephone. of thepe to a large part population responds by a the internet, because that will be much more timely and less expensive. the final change for the 2020 census deals with how you collect information from those individuals that don't self respond. census, the bureau has found using mobile technology in conjunction with smartphones -- i think they are agnostic to be will work they use --

well for the census. the census is 10 questions. they fit on a cell phone. when you have mobile technology you can do a lot of things to manage your workforce. someone has picked up their work , you know if they are in the wrong area, you know if they are doing questionnaires to quickly or to slowly. you can do a whole lot of things that enhances the quality of the census and makes it easier to supervise the workforce, which gets us away from pencil and paper operations. let me just say that if you look at other data and you see the cost of a census, you will see they are going up exponentially with each census, particularly with the 2000, 2010 census. the reason for that has been as the population has gotten more using the pencil and

paper method, your only solution is you have to throw a lot more people out it. higher a lot more people. build more infrastructure. that is what has been raising the cost of the essential census. the census bureau is looking to get significant cost savings by using alternatives. initially the bureau was estimating that they might be able to do a census for under 12 million, a -- $12.5 $5 billion savings since then. the savings have eroded. it is very important about the 2020 census, that is in the 2000 census, the euro reaching outng at to the american population

through paid advertising, which was national and local. the other was a program they called partnership, where they hired a number of individuals to work with local communities at a grassroots level, using trusted voices. they wanted to get messages out. one was why it was important to respond to your community where you live, and the other message was that your data is confidential, the census bureau does not share it with anyone. irs,he ice, the fbi, the cia, no one. like that program worked in 2000 and it worked in the 2010 census. we saw dramatic decreases in the undercounts of certain population groups. census, the

undercount for the hispanic population was 5%. that dropped to under 2% for the 2010 census. while it's not perfect, it's a dramatic gain in the accuracy. those programs are important to getting an accurate count. where are we now? in this decade, the census bureau from 2012 through 2017 in terms of funding requested in funding received was $200 million below that level. my colleagues are going to talk about that in more detail. what they did was forced the census bureau to make some decisions to prioritize. the census bureau believed they had to prioritize on automated systems. they did not think it was possible to do a paper and pencil census anymore.

that.id prioritize on the effect was that certain operations had to get pushed back in terms of the modernization. some will not be modernized. they had to do for activities on the advertising and partnership program, which is also a big concern. todaythe census bureau is , and to any tests in 2018 -- tests in 2018, materials were getting mailed out to start the process. my colleagues will talk about funding issues, my colleagues will talk about the importance , bute advertising program they can't delay anymore the funding to support a good census cannot be delayed anymore.

>> thank you very much, director thompson. you mentioned the census is used for apportionment and redistricting purposes. to be clear, that's everything from congress down to school boards, city councils, etc.. it reaches all levels of government. -- >> thank you, john. and john. thanks for having me. i would like to see what my tuition dollars paid for, as none of this was here when i graduated from georgetown law. i want to talk about just two things. getting into a little more depth-based in what john says. john talked about why an actor census is important. question is, does the census bureau actually get it right? it tries. the census has gotten more

accurate over time. john mentioned. but it is not an equal opportunity enumeration. the census does not count all population groups equally well. people of color are missed at disproportionately high rates. mostncome households and urban and rural areas are missed that higher rates. non-hispanic whites and higher income households were over counted in the 2010 census. also at risk of being missed, immigrants, female single-parent adults,ds, young mobile all at risk of being -- not being counted. most notably, children under the age of five have the highest undercount of any age group. in 2010, in most of the nations

largest counties, one in 10 young children were not counted. black and hispanic young children are missed at twice the rate of other young children. level, censusl undercounts and over counts, basically cancel each other out. the way censuses look are near-perfect. we don't use it census levels -- numbers at the national level. to allocate hundreds of billions of dollars in federal funding, to target new initiatives. the problem is the people who are more likely to be missed don't tend to live in be seen communities as the people who tend to be over counted. be census don't cancel each other out at the local level where it matters. instead, they compound each other.

they magnify the inequalities that flow from this skewed picture. some communities get more than their fair share of public and private resources. others get far less than they should. we have to live with those results for the next 10 years. that in a nutshell is the challenge for the census bureau, reducing or eliminating that skewed picture and what we call this differential undercount. witht want to finish up the next logical question, which is, how does the census bureau do that? it, but we have sobering news. i'm worried the census bureau will -- about its ability to , oneoff an accurate census that counts all communities equally well, i think there is a

confluence of unprecedented factors that could lead to the perfect storm in 2020. really quickly, john mentioned some of these. delayed, uncertain annual funding. through this census cycle and as a result, the census bureau has to cut back, cancel, or delay critical testing and research. this is going to be the first high-tech census. be anrst time there will option to respond online. nobody disputes the need to modernize the census. technology also brings cyber security risk, real or perceived. on the real side we've got hacking and phishing scams. misinformation campaigns. in this time of social media.

russia, i hope you are not listening. then, perceived. tople are more reluctant provide personal information online because of what they hear about cyber security threats. even putting that aside, the high-tech census faces the digital divide, low income particularly all -- are affected by lower access to the internet and broadband. third, there is a helpful climate of fear in many communities. anti-immigrant rhetoric and stepped-up federal law enforcement activity has driven millions of people, immigrants, into the shadows. even people in the country with a mixed status household. they may be undocumented, their children may be citizens. they would be afraid of participating3\ --

participating. they also don't trust this administration's intentions. they are skeptical their census responses will be kept confidential and not used no matter what the law says. i'm also concerned about things like the of euro crisis and -- opioid crisis. people are less physically engaged and they have fear of law enforcement. all those things affect participation. like marco rubio, i don't feel bad about taking a sip of water. , proposals to add untested questions at the 11th hour, in particular, the justice department asked the census bureau to add a question on citizenship. that could derail in my opinion years worth of research testing , depressed response

rates, and add billions of dollars to the cost of the promise theut any census will be accurate. by law, the commerce secretary must amid the actual questions to congress by the end of this month. that is likely to happen next week. i think, however, the secretary his censusrettably, will take place in the shadow of multiple lawsuits. deep suspicion of the administration's motive for this disruptive change. finally, there is a leadership vacuum. there are no candidates for census director in site. the deputy director position has been vacant as well for over a year. there is no question we are facing an uphill battle.

sitting it out is not an option. there is a constitutional responsibility to take a census. we have to do what we can to make sure it goes well. >> hit on something that was thertant to jump back to in allocation of funds over the next decade. nearlye hitting on that $7 trillion will be dispersed based on accounts from the annual census over a ten-year. -- ten-year period. areas with high proportions of children and those with large minority populations will be especially affected by undercount. >> that is exactly right. i will go into detail, but the bottom line is, communities where people are missed, they are invisible. we are just going to be making bad decisions all around.

>> i think that transitions. >> thank you, john. thanks to your colleagues. inc. to my colleagues -- thanks also to my colleagues. the census and technology, i would encourage you to read, it is much easier than any law school reading you will be doing. i want to focus on two broad points and try to see something positive. i will do my best. i want to focus on some of the issues around technology and data, and secondly around federal funding. technology and data, what you heard from john thompson earlier was that technology is eventually very promising for cost savings.

lots of other countries in the world have shifted to -- some cases, many years ago, online and more technological censuses. there are obviously concerns and sometimes it is a double-edged sword. example, our goal is to get as many people as possible to fill out their census online. that will allow us to free up resources for the nonresponse follow-up. people knock on your doors, they talk to your landlord, your neighbors. also using third-party administrative data, records from state agencies to help fill the gaps. two out of the three sites for the dress rehearsal, the census ongoing right now, had to be canceled. was, for example, in west virginia and would have focused on rural areas.

we also had previous test sites for other aspects of the senses that had to be canceled. tribal areas, puerto rico, to test multilingual operations. we are going in with less confidence and certainty, although hopefully we will learn a lot from the tests ongoing, about how this internet and i.t. infrastructures going to work. the technology is not just about responding. it is also about the devices that enumerators will use to canvas, also training. just to get a sense of how thorough the census bureau is. they tested automated training for the numerators. he automated training would be much cheaper and faster and easier. there were shortcomings there. never mind challenges with connectivity issues in canvassing in west virginia

where they try to verify addresses, there were dead spots and not cell phone access everywhere, which the process relies on. there were issues with whether or not the enumerators who got automated training were as efficient in following the path laid out for them. some of the efficiencies and cost savings are maybe in doubt relative to what we hope for. i won't belabor it, the differential rates of internet access, we all know about the counterintuitive in some cases, you can imagine situations where young people of color may be more likely to thought the census now, they have more access to mobile devices. it is also the case they have phones that are least likely to have protective software to protect from various problems that could happen.

they use public wi-fi connections, have stronger drop-off rates where they don't finish the survey. we know some of this from testing is very real. there's a lot of concern here. it would have been ideal to have tested this in a robust way. we will see what we learn from providence rhode island. let me talk about the federal funding. billion, i will talk about the specific programs. keep in mind census data is not only used for apportionment, but for enforcing antidiscrimination law. let me focus on some of the programs. $700 billion a year, that is just federal programs. state and local programs and

even private programs may use census data. the census affects the american constitution -- sorry, the american community survey and effects the consumer price index. affects the federal poverty guidelines. this affects means a range of programs, the biggest one being medicated, which is over $310 billion a year, and is a very direct impact. the way medicaid works is a federal state partnership. there is a match. that is called federal local assistance percentage. that is based on per capita income. because the numbers come most rightly from different data sets, if you don't count as many , a lot of the states are

not likely to be affected, but if you don't have as many people as are actually there, you can see a less generous subsidy from the federal government's. know,ose of you who don't anything at the state level as far as state funding, medicaid is 30% of all state spending. it is a big deal, federal subsidy or not. housingograms, snap, ,ouchers, national school lunch the justice realm, corrections course, behavioral health, children's justice grant programs, crime victim assistance, community mental , alth services block grant lot of these either directly or indirectly use census data, depend heavily on the counter being right or the program to go out the right way.

it may not meet overall funding is affected, it will mean something is not targeted as well as it could be. , often about this impact in direct and often hidden, but very real. the one positive thing i wanted i think sometimes people here all this and feel like this is not a winnable fight. i don't share that view now. it could come back in six months. i think right now there has been a wide sort of -- widespread demonstration across the political spectrum, not always as much as i'd like, but that this should not be -- the census has been bipartisan, nonpartisan, for decades. , it was important for so many aspects of our economy, business development, housing construction, nevermind the political value and federal

funding. we have seen that when people have spoken out and when this has been -- issues have been administrationis has backed down from decisions that concerned us or moved forward in ways that were helpful. recently, terry in and others have worked to secure more funding for the census, which would not have happened if people had not been engaged. things i want to leave the folks with is that it's very important that people stay informed, they educate policy levels -- , ifcymakers at all levels we have community-based affiliations you work with, there are other ways people can get involved. >> thank you very much. i'm glad to appear there is a positive take. i think that makes a lot of sense that the census does have

a history of being bipartisan and a lot of people see value in that. when people -- when things get a little bit off the trail, there. can you speak a little about what we as lawyers can do to engage? >> thank you, thank you for having me. it is an honor to be with three co-panelists are no immense amounts about the senses -- who know immense amounts about the census. to pick up on john's indication that invitation, let me use as a case study one set of legal concerns that our institute for constitutional advocacy and protection worked with a number of other groups to articulate with respect to leadership at the census bureau.

i will provide one other set of legal concerns. it's a good case study. as you look at a broad array of issues, you've got a phenomenal hower of them on the table, bring to bear legal challenges or at least articulation of legal concerns can fit. others have mentioned that after my distinguished coke panelists bureau, -- the census bureau has lacked a director and deputy director. they have an acting director, -- on the one hand, i want to emphasize how critical it is those folks are doing the job they would be doing under any administration in anytime to carry this out a bipartisan or nonpartisan way consistent with the census

tradition. at the same time, the absence of leadership for us and for others , raises some real legal concerns. we and in a letter that other organizations signed on to -- let me talk about three of those. we started with the fact that there are some jobs in the u.s. government that are optional. statutes create them as part of the administrative agencies that make up our government. they are phrased as permissive. then there are jobs that say there shall be. it just so happens the language creating a census bureau directorship says, the census euro -- bureau shall be headed by a director. at some point in time, there should be one of these. congress passed a law that says there shall be one of these. paris got be leeway for any

there has got to be leeway for any president to add or replace. we were seeing no reports indicating there were even potential nominees. potential prospects for this. legal argument one was there should be somebody. we don't have any indication that, a year into this administration, there has been an effort to fill the role. of the second argument was that this position, for a position of seniority is somewhat unusual, and by statute has criteria associated with it. the statute says such appointments shall be made from individuals who have a demonstrated ability in managing large organizations and experience in the collection and use of statistical data. this seems quite useful for the role the director of this bureau would play. let me add to the circumstances.

not only was there the absence of a even recorded or rumored nominee, but there were reports of an individual might be installed as deputy director. we were not as interested in the particulars of that individual. ideare interested in the that if this administration were to pursue a deputy director and not a director at any point, it would seem to be something of an and run around statutory requirements. these do not apply to the deputy director. these are the ones congress has specified for the director role. to the extent that leading -- reading the tea leaves suggested there was a deputy director in the works and no director, it raised a concern about trying to thesee an and run around required finally, federal law requires from this position that the

position it be appointed by the president by and with the advice and consent of the senate and happens to add, without regard to political affiliation. here's another end run, the idea of pointing someone to the deputy director role seemed to cut out the u.s. senate from its and in letting the person frankly letting the person against a background of the same statutory criteria that i set out before. and seven other groups signed on to a letter articulating these concerns. my optimistic thought is a contributed to a set of voices out there weighing in on different aspects of the situation and ultimately, the rumor to deputy director announced that he was taking himself out of the running. someone's, this mitigates some of the concerns about using a deputy director installation in the hope of a perpetual director, but in an acting role

that cuts out the senate and cuts out the statutory requirements for a director. on the other hand, it does not just the first problem which is having leadership of a certain sort in this critical moment in the skripal process. when one fits in the role of legal advocacy organization, the type of slice of this complex set of issues that we and our colleagues and other groups were able to carve out and focus on. let me just put on the table one other thing we are watching. my co-panelists have teed it up already and that is the fact that this is the first virtual or digital census. it is on us alone to be concerned about what that means for some of the issues that others have spoken to whether that is told in ability and how the data is handled, opportunities for altering or excellent trading that data, etc. it is focused on the hill. there have now been two letters.

the second one was signed out almost a month ago. asking the acting director of for fives bureau specific pieces of information about the i.t. systems to be utilized as part of the end-to-end test and ultimately as part of the 2020 senses. it has to be the chairman and ranking member of the subcommittee of government operation. this is not a democrat or republican only issue. what is concerning is they still have not gotten answers. this is a letter in february following up on a letter sent almost exactly four months earlier in november. three months earlier. you can see why i don't delete the statistical work here. organizations we worked on with the letter has submitted a similar set of inquiries all in the interest of

trying to understand what are these i.t. systems and in what extent should folks be interested that the --? the is another way to slice counter related set of concerns, but it again with information flow. that is why those of us from the outside are trying to get a handle on how these things will go. as soon as the intake and test, but especially when the real thing rolls around, and hopefully in useful ways put some pressure on the process. much.you very >> we have left a decent amount of time for questions. there are standing mike's in both of the stair aisles. one thing i would like to ask is that we prioritize the student to have questions. i know there are plenty of other guest here. to the first question, i just wanted to first

of all thank all the panelists for being here today. i appreciate them all giving a part of their day and for taking some time to prepare for the panel today. if you wouldn't mind, please all think the panel today. [applause] to thank theike .merican constitution society the georgetown law students for democratic reform and the law offices of student life and communications for providing so much support for putting this panel together. thank you so much to all of them. [applause] befinally, if you will sticking around afterward, there will be a reception after the questions conclude. one thing i will note is that if you have any questions for kerry and, she has to depart immediately following the event to catch a train back home to read if you have questions,

please ask them here or finally afterward. i have her information to get in contact with her. i was wondering if the panelists could speak to some of the more controversial decisions that the census has been making, particularly, i am sure with the actual statutory decision has been, but there has been talk of counting prisoners in predominately rural communities based on where the prison is located and not based on the communities they come from your and of the immigration, the addition of an immigration citizenship question has a controversial and this may just be my progressive conspiratorial mindset right now, but the deputy director is supposed to some controversial beliefs. i am wondering if there is to my perception that there might be more political pressure from his

administration to politicize the census to the benefit of republican constituents. >> let me talk a little bit about the issue on prisoners. , i believe every census, prisoners have been counted in prison. the idea of the senses is to count people where they usually live and sleep and that is in the prison. there are some sound arguments as to why that might not be the right place to count them. in preparation for this senses, the census bureau actually put together the roles they are going to use to count people out for,. they got over 80,000 comments, i think all that for were on the issue of where to count prisoners. i think of those, all but about five where making the argument that prisoners should be counted not the presence but where they

were pre-incarceration because they had enduring ties to those locations in the belief was that they would return there. that took quite a bit of work at the census bureau to look at, one took all the comments, but also to see if there was any presbytern if that would return back to where they were. the census is doing some research. at that point, i left in the census bureau did announce that they are quick to count prisoners in the prisons and i don't think they were very clear as to why, but they did. andll turn it over to carry -- kerry ann. >> just enjoyed on a little bit -- just to drill down a little bit more, there have been active campaigns over the last several decades to try and change what we call the residence rule for where

incarcerated persons are counted. as john indicated, there has been a big push to have incarcerated persons counted at their home address. part, the interest in that issue grew as the prison institutional complex in the u.s. sort of expanded. we now have a lot of prisoners from urban areas who are incarcerated in rural communities. as this whole state prison , generally newwn prisons have been built in rural areas. ers are counted there, those communities get the benefit of those bodies for political representation, the allocation of resources and the like.

interestingly, there are now four states that have passed datato change the census after the census bureau gives it to them to take prisoners out of the count and put them back in their home communities using administered of data or within the state districting legislative greatest -- redistricting purposes. the bureau was continuing to do then john resigned and also november 6, 2016 happened and so we are now with the set of, the final set of residence rules for 2020 that does not change where prisoners are counted. question,had a bigger i'm going to let others talk about that.

let me just say one thing, i think this is important for law school. the consequences of the census are political by definition. the constitution says so. the census shall be used to distribute political representation. again, through the 14th amendment, redistricting for equal visitation. the conduct of the senses needs to be strictly not bipartisan, nonpartisan. government'sederal premier statistical agency and it is important to fight to keep soundocess scientifically and nonpartisan. and the extent that there may be partisan influences to any number of decisions that are being made without the questions being asked or about the appointment of personnel, i would to say this, no one benefits from a failed the senses. we're all in this together.

there are immigrants in every community. it is hard to count populations in every state. behooves anyhink to make sure the senses is done in a sound way the publicn which has confidence. at the moment the public loses the accounting system, when public confidence plummets, the census will fail. >> command is at one thing and that is that when i was there, i did not receive any kind of issues that will be considered political manipulation. for me, they were administration.

i will say this, the courier people at the census bureau, and the most everyone there right now is career, are committed to doing the best senses they can and they will do that for the money they get in the public cooperation. i don't think there would be any gains for trying to do any kind politicize it. there are certainly things that can happen that can make it really hard for them to do their job like if the cooperation plummets, to the best of their ability, they cannot do anything. they don't get the funding they need them they can only do so much. think -- there could certainly be things that are done that would affect the outcome of the senses. >> think that is in some ways why those of us who are interested and concerned about the issues at least once a greater understanding.

i share all this sentiments -- but thatving civil servants will do their job and do it well as much as the public cooperation, funding, resourcing, allows them to do. the question is what are the other influences and is there a reason to be concerned about them? that may or may not be, but the best way to sense that out is to get a sense of what is the diamond -- dynamic there? some of the exchanges about the potential installation about the rumored deputy director to be, it reveals an interesting dynamic about the interplay between the white house and the bureau itself and the broader department of convert -- commerce about that. a little hard to read and sort of understand fully. whether it is through what i

assume will be actually hearings as the date of the actual census approaches, that is where , can i an understanding help the civil servants to their can lead toer it folks like you asking the type of questions you are asking the cousin of a sense of full insight. .> lummis at a limit to that i think asking a different question, but hopefully it helps. the senses clearly matters a lot this administration for reasons other than trying to count everyone. exactly, but what .e can see from the outside

the funding request coming from the administration, coming in typically under even with the census bureau itself has made clear it needs to do what it needs to with an increasingly complex society get to a fair and accurate account. either the source of things that whatinly raise concerns, exactly the motivation is that may be mixed, it may not be one thing, we don't know. i think we should be certainly concerned that just getting a fair and accurate account is not necessarily the highest priority . that is the politicals and says nothing about the census bureau and the career staff. that is they do, that is what they are good at.

they have done research for you. the census starts at least the day after the last census and they've been planning for it and preparing for it. i just want to share that i think we all have a lot of faith in the career staff doing what they can, but sometimes the hands are tied. >> i wondered if you could speak to when planning for a census starts. >> it is tough to say. it is not just start the day after the last one, but actually in the middle of the last one. the census bureau is already embedded. looking at new ways to collect data on race and ethnicity. buts evergreen and ongoing, john you can answer more specific because you have done a few. >> that is a great example.

the planning is ari started to some degree for the 2030 census. the census bureau asked itself what are some things we want to test and may 20 top us prepare for the 2030 census? -- thathe census bureau is the funding you want to see at this point in the decade, but there is some work going on right now. it will grow dramatically in the next decade and in the next census cycle will start. >> if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself. >> i am a reporter for talking points memo. i want to circle back to

something that you said earlier about the prospect of lawsuits going into this next census. i was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about what those lawsuits could look like with the president is for lawsuits and elaborate more on put -- towould do public perception. i will say just one sentence. the census has for many decades been the subject of a lot of litigation. very fascinating. cases have gone up to the supreme court and back down. >> i may give it somewhat asappointing answer insofar the extent to conversations about suits still to be filed under way, it is something best left until the file for various reasons.

a some ways you are asking broader question. you're asking what does it mean on the one hand for us to emphasize public confidence in something that we hope will deserve it and merit it because of the way it is carried out by the civil servants trying to get right, and at the same time to see what could well be an increasing set of people arguing about it. in some ways, impugning aspects of it by suing on it. that has a lot to do with messaging around how litigation goes on. there are things that i think would be worth suing on depending on how this shakes out. that is not fundamentally impugned process or civil servant people behind it. it is important and has proven important in the past. areidea that there legitimate legal arguments and of those should be decided and in the meanwhile people should

not use those as an excuse to talk about this process as if it is somehow fundamentally derailed. that stretch me as important and may be the questions you are asking. there was an amount of litigation going on with the --vious ministries and administration. folks realize at the end of the day that this is how we solve things. commanders at a closing just aton the -- can i a closing thought on that. a lot of the lawsuits in this past have been about the undercount. you have cities and states and governors and advocacy groups like the naacp suing to try and make sure before the census that

the message that will be best method to be used will somehow reduce or eliminate an undercount. there have been undercount. , with allgly though sorts of lawsuits surrounding the census, the courts have given a lot of difference to the census bureau in terms of the way it takes a census. what message it uses? it gives a lot of flexibility in that regard. i think the interesting legal question is what -- is there a constitutional bottom line on accuracy? is there a point where the senses is so flawed, the undercount is so high, the results are so inaccurate that a this might step in and say

a constitutional standard or the standard that the constitution envisions a for the senses. that is a bottom-line question that we don't know yet. a very interesting one. >> it would be interesting whether the general matter and enumeration that the constitution calls for what has some sort of minimum accuracy standards or if you are to think that standards met for certain vulnerable, often underprivileged groups that they suffered an undercount. i think that would all be interesting, but so far uncharted territory. history of suits

against the bureau, it has gone beyond your typical undercounting. we were sued over the way the census bureau counted the military that went to the supreme court. over the of utah sued use of statistical indication that might have been sampling. that went to the supreme court. the suits arose because of great concerns. >> a lot of them did revolve around these residents rules that we talked about earlier where people are counting. that matters. if they are counting more of the overseas military population in some states than in others and that is a test of congressional apportionment, the state that

the knock at the last he is going to be angry and go to court. happened a number of times. again, we do find that the courts have generally given that census bureau a lot of difference in terms of these decisions about where to count people and how to count people in my mind, the unanswered question is is there a floor of ly step in andonal say this has gone below what is acceptable. that thenyone feel change in residence rules for the overseas military population, but not for the present best prison population raise any flags? >> think it was a good thing, more consistent with the senses, residence rules. what happened was they were sort to think about

the military. first, you have those that are stationed overseas any really don't know where they are going to go or their next assignment. they could come back to the states. the census bureau has been counting them at their home of record. they are going to return to the base that they were deployed from. the decision was to count them at the base? there be a clear evidence of -- it wasning something that they haven't during times -- ties. >> this is what i can tell you.

in the state population totals that are used to apportion fromess only, this is that the 1990 senses and it took years for them to come to it, political agreement on that because it affects congressional apportionment. that is political by definition. the one thing i can tell you is this. they're going to be some surprises. when the census bureau reports state population total and the resulting congressional proportion into the president. i don't have a lot of money to wager, but i will wager a little that it is going to affect at least one congressional seat between wednesday and the other

and some other of congress going to wake up the next morning and say why did i pay any attention to this when the census bureau was looking at these residents rules three years ago. >> i happened to graduate from this center in 1972. oneuse of that, i spent year as a student here. it is truly remarkable to see the campus. on a personal note, i am living s thatthat there are other can go to law school and not practice law or not take the bar

and have a successful career. my question is, to what extent, and this may be a false choice, so tell me. to what extent are your concerns that problemsses the assault will be deliberately or even maliciously imposed on the census by the administration or by others or are your concerns that there will be benign the steps that are pursued there that could mess up and adversely affect the census. i think knowingly might be the word i would use. we know knowingly. i don't know about the literally or maliciously, but we do know that if we just take the

question about asking about , there is astatus case to be made that is unnecessary. there is lots of qualitative and other work that would suggest that it might contaminate the results. i think that the funding proposals -- of course congress ultimately when they decide to be up, has as much say of the administration on the funding question. it beer has been making clear for a long time of the have been constrained as a matter of funding. uncertainty and funding are going to cut tests.

it is not something that anyone can really say we had no idea and i was not funding the bureau to have this unfortunate repercussions. to say it would be hard that some of these risks right want people that he warned of our cautioned about this event is is a done deal. there is time to get things right. far, in some ways, i think back and think things may have been much worse. they could have been much worse than they are at this point. >> i am more worried now that i have been. he is up felipe right that there are challenges to every senses it there different environments in which every senses occurs.

think i am losing more sleep , i think there is some unprecedented factors that taken together are or could create this perfect storm in 2020. i hate to keep using the maritime analogy and say sink the ship, because obviously, no one wants that. paddlingping to keep as hard as we can help the census bureau do what it needs to do and do the job right. >> knowingly is probably a great word for it because it is and not just responsible the of the executive branch, but of congress as well when it comes to funding. it is known that there should be more research is going into this. it is known that in the current environment especially, you want anyeally have understood

vulnerability as well and dealt with them. givenpecially once it collections over the past decade. what from the outside appears to be insufficient, concerning including on the hill with the funding question and to see what seems like not even a transparency to best with respect to the digital asked concerns.is in the knowing these are problems is the description and finding a way to deal with them will be responsible.

>> i'm a reporter. what comes to the 2018 dresser her so that is going on, how much can really be done in terms of changing prophecies and catching up on readiness of there are problems in 2018 before reaching 2020. secondly, on the funding issue, and others as a funding anomaly which allows them. >> i there were a couple of questions. one, the census bureau did get an anomaly for 2018 to spend more money the man that had, which was good. from -- theyver

expect to find some issues in their systems, and the 2018 test. the question is how much of a problem of the issues that they find. thing from my perspective is that the issues they will find will not be very big in terms of the automation and they will be able to effectively deal with this. there are much bigger issues though. they're going to have the find and the automation but it will have to deal with. the other thing about consuming resolution is even more important for you fyi 19. i'm sure there will be a continuing resolution in the guitar pack. they're going to need to spending a lot of money, so they will need on anomaly.

>> i think we are going to have to cut things off air. thank you very much and i would like to thank the panel one more time. i appreciate your taking the time to be here today and answering any questions we have you >> thanks for having us. [applause] to speak toke anybody on the panel outside during the reception, there will be some wine and food served upstairs. >> as mentioned, there are and materials from the american constitution society as well. thank you everyone.

"-span's "washington journal live every day. new york congresswoman will be with us and discuss the future of the mueller investigation. also, a look at the shakeup among president trump's national security team.

joining us will be pennsylvania congressman. he will discuss the data firm hired by the cap provincial campaign that took and kept data on 50 million facebook users. be sure to watch c-span's "washington journal" live at 7:00 eastern this morning. join the discussion. live to stay on the c-span networks, but house returns for general speeches at 10:00. on c-span2 at 10:00 a.m., continue to work on a bill to stop online sex trafficking. on c-span3 at 10:00, education secretary betsy devos testifies before a house appropriations subcommittee on her department

2019 budget request. >> former u.s. ambassador to the moderated a panel on russia's future under vladimir putin. the event comes a day after he declared victory in a country's presidential election. we had an election yesterday in russia what had a result that was not unexpected. there are nuances there that are worth exploring. we hav