i'll, i know you're wrong, fight. why? why? how was i supposed to know you are the heartbreaker? ♪ >> ♪ how was i supposed to know you are the heartbreaker? i didn't know. i want to die. wanted to grow if you, you told me so but then you left.

know?s i supposed to ♪ >> good morning, good afternoon or good morning, good morning still. welcome to "new america". i run the international security program here and we are whereted to be the place the co-author of the new report, "transforming the hate that hate produced." he will present findings from the new report. dr. fraser used to work for the department of homeland security. the director of national intelligence, the counterterrorism center, he has had a long career in government. phd last year from howard.

fraser,ng, after dr. our guest from the defense of democracies. he had a distinguished career in government, working as an economic and counterterrorism analyst for the central intelligence agency. i will hand it over. basically, setting the table for our discussion. thank you. >> good morning. i hope everyone is doing well. i will try to get this on powerpoint, if not, we will have a backup plan. i wanted to thank, first and david, graciously allowing us to be able to come here to engage on what i think is an important topic. this topic, in particular,

dealing with the experience of african-american muslims, and the report in particular started off with the organization i work with now, the oldest organization in the world the work that i currently do, i had our efforts in north america, engaging in the africa portfolio as well. i think this opportunity we have today is engaging on a critical issue, dealing with the oldest muslim community in the united states. studying throughout west africa, senegal, mali, gandia, the middle east as well, one of the most important things that came up when i was , -- this is very local

to being in the middle east. -- youthat if you have have not experienced islam in the united states. that is important because african-american muslims, the descendents of enslaved africans, have been in united states of america since inception. builds up the great contribution of the work of enslaved africans coming to the united states by force and with them, these individuals brought with them a nonviolent, spiritual form of islam that has been in the united states since inception. 50% to 30% of enslaved africans came from muslim lands like nigeria, which is very important to highlight to understand concepts.

growing up in charleston, south carolina, i was the beneficiary of a tradition. very much, the experience of enslaved africans, still preserving culture in south carolina and georgia, as well as memorizing the koran as a young boy. that journey is important in light of the contemporary narrative of islam being something different and foreign, away from the american experience. at the funeral last year of muhammad ali, dr. sherman jackson said eloquently, with the death of mohammed ali, his death, there should be no question of the compatibility of islam and being american, being muslim and american. what he did and what many others did, make it very visible for

the american experience to see that there is muslim presence, muslim influence. kareem abdul-jabbar, dave chapelle, these are well-known individuals within the african-american community, they happen to be muslim, that are used to multiple faith traditions within families of african-american experience. even the relation of hot music and hip-hop, you see the influence of african-american muslims as well. understandontext to that american muslims themselves and particularly african-american muslims, have been engaging in a conversation of being both american and muslim on the beginning in this journey. from that time onward. --entially there was a gap

before i get into this it is important to frame the conversation -- the professor emeritus at howard university called this a 60 year gap between african islam and african-american islam. the traditions, cultures, what you're used to, the islamic identity of practice, the great schools of islamic thought, weather in the arabian peninsula or west africa, with the journey coming to america, we have, a new identity emerging. with the rise of proto-islam equipment's, if you will -- proto-islam movements, if you will. it incorporated the nation of islam, other movements, it is important to recognize that when the development of islam in america was certainly, very much the result of missionaries in the united states.

at the turn-of-the-century, in the 1900s, there were instrumental individuals in the establishment of the identity in the united states. i say that in light of the blasphemy laws in pakistan. pot ofsion, this melting islam coming into the american experience -- african-american muslims into this expense have engaged in the sense of resistance, looking for spirituality. looking for purpose. and that journey, we saw the development of the nation of islam. to make a complex story very 1975, to simplify it, in the late, led the largest mass conversion of american muslims to sunni islam.

it's rhetoric of black as analism, segregation result of the experience of jim crow laws, the result of american encounter with race relations. wd mohammed was the son of elijah muhammad, institutionalizing reforms, ushering in a community that has currently over 300 mosques throughout the united states and the caribbean. it also has the oldest islamic institution in the united states, a model that has judges, lawyers, former counterterrorism analysts, intelligence officers, diplomats, businessmen, congressman in the united states as well, particularly congressman andre carson, to

demonstrate this specific plan to create an inclusive pluralistic islam that says you can be both american and muslim. andreform method, ideological rehabilitation, rejecting the claims of his in a wayejecting it that he was also offering an alternative to self empowerment. of work inis sense meeting for many african americans dealing with a sense of victimhood and in light of operating disparity, in the united states as well. ee, a healthy sense of patriotism and citizenship.

the late mohammed encouraged a sense of patriotism and citizenship and as a result this is why we have the first american judges, coming from this community. the first american congressman coming from this community. the first american elected officials coming from this community. this formula, one in which individuals could easily stay in a sense of frustration and anger, wanting to carry out actions against the state that we see as part of grievances, in the larger, broader sense. he was able to institute mechanisms to say, yes, you can have grievances, channel it through your constitutional efforts of the united states in a productive way. you can be vocal. but also recognize your part of

this society. there is no other place you are going back home to. as americans and muslims, you owe a responsibility to do something as well. you canbe critically, be critical of issues and policies but recognize that where you are in the society, where you are in this united states of america, is part of where you are and where you should be going. examples are some of the mechanisms and framing of what w.d. mohammed were able to institute as well. we will have more time for q&a. what he offered, is one in which, either western and larger muslim communities in the united states, throughout the world can borrow from. how can a dais for a community

address issues -- how can a diaspora community address issues of complaints? the african-american community, regardless of being muslim or not, is one that has dealt with issues of police brutality, the community has dealt with the issue of what they have seen as surveillance. the experience of this community, has said, the government, security services, will have to do their job, absolutely. it is part of that apparatus, that engaging. what needs to take place also, also engaging critically in a manner where you can have a dialogue, pushing back on a policy level but also recognizing, this is part of what law enforcement, intelligence services, security

services are going to be engaged in. constructive dialogue and looking for solutions as well. i will stop there because there is much more we can cover as well, and some of the recommendations we offer is well. thank you. [applause] -- recommendations we offer as well. thank you. [applause] everyone.rning, ripofffollow up with the of what he has done and say a few words before the q&a. to do two things. to give historical context to this movement and community and to say a little about personal insight, contextualize my personal experience, helping us get to the discussion. number one. --is important to provide

have this historical context in terms of how islam has spread throughout history. new muslimhave community springing up. throughout asia, africa. often you had small communities, maybe not connected to the islamic tradition in depth. a lot of syncretic practices. communities.ate then islam would grow later. it would get deeper later. that engagement with what we would think of the true islamic sources, the koran, the profit, -- the prohpet. that is how islam spreads. small communities become established in there is logic identity -- in their islamic identity. this was the process.

this always happens but there was a difference in 1975. in 1975, something happened which had never happened in the history -- i'm not a historian but my wife is. i have learned a lot from her. what happened in 1975 was for the first time, you had a large, collective body of new muslims start to engage the islamic text and develop an authentic islamic identity without the prodding of or the influence of the established. that had never happened before. the mid-70's, in the midst of the cold war, on the cusp of globalization, a changing world, advances in communication, very unique in the middle of the world's most powerful country -- the united states, there was birthed a unique islamic identity. it is interesting that this happened in the context of the african-american community.

why might this have happened? my thought is that, if you think about the african-american community and our history, the african-american community, as you refer to, there was this gap. the african-american identity is one that has been cut off. even though there was traditions, african-americans, which specific country are you talking about? it is very rare, only in some situations can you trace it. we had this new identity of a new people. it makes sense, if you think about it. for islam to grow within this community, you will have something very unique. the first time you had this community where, islam was, even in the face of racial racialion, the legacy of oppression and these things, you had islam growing.

you had people taking on this identity. they did it in a way, this is due to example, how he helped this community grow, it was you being comfortable in your own skin. i would posit before we step into discussion, that this theunity's example may be, reform movement that people, especially in post-9/11, people are always asking about and talking about as if it never exists but it has been here. ,n the "the new york times" there was a piece about the authoritarianism in the muslim world, this driving people away from islam, talking about saudi arabia, talking about reform and this istened islam, coming out of the muslim world experience. it is interesting to note, this

reform, which had been cut off an independent, this african-american muslim community, has been operating, developing, it has been overlooked. it probably was overlooked because the islamic reform that people are looking for or the body this should show up in did not look like what they thought it should look like. in the who is trained west and went to oxford and the western experience -- that is not what it looks like. it doesn't mean that the community was not engaging scholars, we were not cut off in that sense but the direction happened in a very independent way. independent thinking about islam, how you approach the koran and the prophets example.

most of the world were not thinking about that because they were too connected, to attach to the tradition. we can still respect the history. it was the breaking off of the african-american identity which allowed a different american islam. i will end by saying, what does this mean for us? personally, we have a great example. mohammed, you were born and raised, third, fourth generation islam? in south carolina. i was raised on the west coast. my mother is african american, born in new york and my father is west african. i converted to islam in college. i came out of an experience where i came to islam as a young adult. community, it the made my identity as a muslim american harmonious. hopefully we will talk more about that.

those are my words in my experience. [applause] both.nk you there he, super interesting. -- very, super interesting. the third of muslims in the united states are african-americans -- is that correct? is that well understood? imam of theent oldest mosque built by indigenous muslims in the united states in washington his sister passed away so he could not be here. the statistics are changing. 2011, a data poll, 2015, showing that african-american muslims are roughly around 33%, south asian muslims, 28%.

i think quite frankly, now, african-americans, the numbers are probably less in light of immigration issues -- immigration of individuals from different countries. it may be less than that. but it is right around that. >> am i right in thinking that when americans think of muslims, they think of arab americans or south asian americans? is that correct? honest, thereo be is a slower ratio of african-american islam. if you look at the pundits on tv, comments on television, despite our background coming country, written daily briefs and strategic assessments, we were mistaken as each other. [laughter] >> several times. >> we do not look the same but -- [laughter]

>> but this happens. the conversation has shifted in ofht of perhaps, this idea american muslim exceptionalism. 45% shows that 45% of american muslims are at or below the poverty line. -- itallenge it challenges this notion of all americans are wealthy. many are well-to-do, i am on the board of the american islamic heritage museum here in d.c. that documents the history of the entire muslim experience. is thatvoice heard, narrative being shown? not as much as it should be. you said something very

interesting. you can beat nationalistic and still beat muslim, because osama bin laden would dip your -- would differ. i want to -- i want you to unpack this a little bit. bin laden would talk about the nation, but he would not mean saudia arabia. he would mean the entire community of believers that he percent some self as defending. howard osama bin laden react to some of the things you have said and these ideas. -- how would osama bin laden react to some of the things you said? osama bin laden were seeking to target african-american muslims seeking to use and insight on racial grievances. senator barack obama was seeking to become the president. negroere using the house

and field negro concepts. they were aware of racial shouldces, on the in's that there were some african -- on the assumption that there were some african-american muslims in the united states. is a bin laden himself, it different narrative. all of humanity is the community. the community is also a local dynamic as well. whole, community as a this one has certainly pushed back against that narrative. laden,gument with bin now with the lion -- now with the rise of comes up -- of hamza and lawton talks about the eye -- been lauded -- bin laden

talks about the idea of muslims being united. -- there hasn this never been this idea of the perfect islamic state. it has always been this stents of flux, experimentation. sense of openness and tolerance was certainly there. you can look at a number of islamic policies, as examples. when taxes were restricted, you see a conservative -- you see conservatism. not to say that it relates to extremism. it can be one out of many dynamics or triggers for interest.s' appeal to laden's

africans, that fell on deaf years. if it turns out that the african-american muslim community, there was almost no takers. african-americans do not really cause bloodshed. tile thet a very for -- a for tile field. field.ile there was anhim: african-american convert who traveled to yemen, former military and he carried out an attack down in alabama. he is now incarcerated. his other and sister now have an -- his fatherther and sister now run an

organization to help recognize these signs. it is important because memphis tennessee has one of the oldest communities. if he had just driven a little beenurther he would have exposed to an antidote that would've helped him see a holistic understanding. malik jones in baltimore america -- in baltimore, maryland is another example. a single individual that we highlight that has been exposed and carried out any action from al qaeda, isis at all. as of this date. peter: you mentioned this question of interpretation. jihad which was the idea that you can interpret that koran.

that it is their prerogative to say that the gates of interpretation are closed. after 9/11 there was a lot of discussion about potential reformation. you got a lot of people who did not get -- you do not have a lot of history about islam. there have been many reformations along the way. i was unaware of anything you just said about, this attempt. was it controversial that the americans were doing this without the university or other arab --? i do not live through it directly. i did not see it. you had a very quiet sort of movement. mohammeda hot -- imam took the reins and did everything mohammed mentions,

you did have an outreach to the muslim world. what of the original names was the world communicative -- community of islam in the west. we are not just a small, sectarian group. we are muslims, traditional muslims following mohammed. we have the same brother and sister with the islamic world. this idea of universality, but not one of direction. from what i have seen, read, and heard some folks who were around at that time, other scholars appreciated him him mohammed. other folks it not -- appreciated in ma'am -- imam mohammed. who else in 1980 was a key muslim leader? mohammed who was doing this.

very independent. what did happen in the 80's and 90's, here in america a lot of people saw that, even though this community was growing, people would say he was not authentic. here,ould say, now we're my family came from pakistan or egypt. we are here in america and we can provide the guidance. that,e been caught up in that is where we are all -- that is where we are. the crown mentioned princess of saudia arabia. he met with president trump last tuesday -- the crown prince of saudia. he met with trump last tuesday. he told the washington to -- that the roadst" that saudia arabia has been going down since 1979, basically was kind of a cul-de-sac.

there was a lot of problems there. he is letting the women drive in june. -- unusual for the gulf. now a divorced mother can have custody of the kids without going to court. many changes, locking people up and doing many other things. you are both intelligence analysts. you work in the u.s. government. if you are talking to one of one of the president or your directors of the cia or dhs, and you were surmising -- or trying to analyze. what would you be saying about this? is this a big deal, windowdressing or -- dr. fraser-rahim: what is happening is probably inevitable. everything you mentioned is good and important. we have seen pockets of it.

it had to happen, it is good that it is happening. is it windowdressing, what it is is it will be easier said than done. one person dictating to a whole country, there is a lot of institutional inertia that he is going to have to fight against, and others who are doing the same thing. add, forhing i would these efforts to be successful, i would recommend that those who are doing them consult those who have been successful in providing this enlightened islam in the modern environment. that is what i would like to see. i am not trying to ask for an invitation, but you would think that if folks are seeing -- if folks are saying that is how islam should be, you should look at where islam has been like that. not to be western sentiment -- western centric and say that we

will save the world, we have a lot to show that the rest of the muslim world can learn from. i think thereim: is a delayed arab spring in the gulf. without all the trappings and what it would've looked like. trying toat, mdf is institute a slow engagement in light of two stakeholders. you have the religious istat you'll -- establishment and the royal emily. those two engagements require surgical sophistication in a way where you are making everyone happy. slow, --t requires slow reform that may be a bit slow for us. it may be timely and, for the long haul, the best decision at this particular moment. clericthe leading saudi

an old friend of bin laden, who has now rejected him. he is not going -- if you are not going along for the ride you are putting him in -- you are going in jail. this is the joke and the conversation that always comes up. let us work with moderate leaders and suni voices. the real engagement are those border who make us a bit uncomfortable to work with. in some shape or fashion engaging them in a constructive with a -- at constructive way which control -- with -- which -- which requires a strategy. i am of the opinion that engaging those types, some nonviolent and some who are part that we needment in the gulf and the broader world.

i think we also have to remember that changing coulter, changing society is -- changing culture, and changing society is not a direct movement. the experience we have been through shows that. organic process. we have to be comfortable with the idea that, even with a out thesep -- setting guidelines, the path to enlightenment or what ever we what call it, it is not going to follow scripts. we need to be aware, that maybe some reform is not perfect. i am not endorsing them, i am saying this is an organic process. if we had this theyrsation through 9/11, framed all in the array is lee

conflict. right now it is all sectarian. mohammed going on 60 minutes and comparing a leader to hitler and implying he might start a nuclear weapons program. wearing your analyst hat, what does this look like going on the road. are these sectarian terms going to be an issue, are they going to get worse? what does it mean for the middle east or islam at large? factor is that you have a growing prize and atheism in the middle east. individuals are leaving and that is going tovement take place. east youd the middle cannot say you are atheist. .t is very problematic

old issue,the age still an issue and a problematic one. think that these issues continue to become all throughout the world. there are elements that will manifest itself as well. nigeria, you have the rise of views.e -- anti-shia lebanese influence have been scholars whoing have gone to study. that competition that has been taking place is not in the middle east, it is in the west, east africa. looking for areas to get influence. to get --

it to the personal. i converted 1997, i often think, when i converted, i did not orvert to sunnism, shiaism. it was a year later when i understood the distinction. i was into the text not the politics. because theesting african american muslim community that we are talking about came to islam, we can say nnismwe were brought to suni by default. it was not a sectarian view. a lot of sources are from sunni scholars, not shia scholars. seeingthings that we are

now, there is benefit in this identity being created, which has not been so sectarian. by default, but i would not contextualize it that way. it was a push to the idea to islam. connect to the text, and the broader tradition but not so closed into a sectarian identity. -- maybe saudis need that. peter: where you taken down a sectarian path or not? >> i think about coming to islam before the the 90's, before the internet. i was going into different mosques, there was just so much different literature. most converts at the time, if you are going to be engaging at the time, you would be him and

-- in a dated with this literature coming -- in you dated with literature coming from saudi. just the popular culture. go to philadelphia. if you go to philadelphia, just an example, the identity of a long. 10, fivegoing back years ago, and still in place now. from the it comes influence of a kind of thought andmerica, jersey, philadelphia are just two locations. it is part of popular culture, people having a big year. that comes from the influences -- that comes from an influence of a very specific framing of the world. in the contemporary context it

is hard to distinguish it being one in the same. you can see that influence. throughout the u.s., the have beenl textbooks part and parcel of many mosques. these are shifting. peter: you are part of an organization called quiliam. is it named after? dr. fraser-rahim: it was the from thevert to islam u.k. in the 1800s. the quiliam as an organization people who have gone down the pathway of al qaeda. we have a new report coming out -- of thevidual who early days, one of the youngest

cases of an individual who has been a member of al qaeda, and we will be announcing him and doing some efforts in the united states. we have been engaging of this issue. i have seen this on the government side, especially seeing policymakers engage with foreign counterparts. in the academic sense as well. on the outside working on i had geological reasons, point to point -- ideological individuals working point to point. we put out policy analysis like what you are seeing, we deal with the media. we roll up our sleeves and deal with real issues. this experience is unique, similar to the african-american one. we have been dealing with gang prevention, drug addiction. our families are the highs and the lows, are individuals are wealthy and successful to

individuals in public housing facilities. we have dealt with the issue day in and day out. we have dealt with the extremism in its fullest expression. ist balanced approach important. a lot of individuals will push back, the tbe -- it is some way anti-muslim and at large.ti-muslims this community has been front .nd center involved we live in the community, we are on the boards of the community. we give money in community. we have engaged with extremism in all forms. what weimportant and tell her coreligionists. engaging in a balanced fashion, being honest. matter, black on black crime is a tough issue to

deal with. i had a person shot 18 times in the chest at 17 years old. that was a tough thing to deal with. that is the same issue when i was in government working on issues from being in pakistan and afghanistan, and getting on dealing. this is a responsibility for us to do it no way that is nuanced, surgical and tailored. peter: anything to add? fanusie: no. 7 peter: -- mic, pleaseve a identify yourself in the audience and ask your question. >> yes. in 1975, imamoned w. d mohammed.

you went on to talk about the figures that grew out of that movement. where is that movement today yet go and where do you see yourself helping that movement? or do you? normally, i'm in the capacity of my analyst hat. this is one of those rare moments where i am playing dual hats to the personal side. i am a product of this. extensivelyed throughout the middle east and west africa. i am a product of the community itself. respects, not just me, there are thousands of others who, from my same experience, who are in many different experiences and circles. who have been working in a very fashion, who were very conversant in their

understanding of islam. we take a middle of the way approach. we have been quietly doing the work without a lot of and fair, conversation and have been engaged in aspects domestically and internationally. i would argue that, going forward, this community is still strong. community is one in which they are making sure to advise where they can and engage with their coreligionists as well. to be frank with you, the real challenge of this larger conversation of pushing back is the conversation. that conversation is not largely taking place. it is a one in which the most -- the most divided our for christians is on sunday.

formost divided hour muslims is friday. if you go to most of the mocks -- the mosques, it is not divided. if you are not religious, you can sit and observe. if you go to the oldest mosque in washington there is a diverse group of individuals. these are open and safe spaces for individuals. i would say the community is still here. more of a need to exert its presence. people -- communities are doing what they are doing. doing all types of things like people do. has beenng piece highlighting or elevating. people are doing stuff because you have congressmen in all

these positions. i do not think publicly there is exposure. i think a lot that is internal. has notthe community really engaged media in a strategic way. there is an appetite for other things. when i was growing up, i grew up out of the 80's and 90's hip-hop. i was very focused on what is going on in the black community. i was from the afrocentric ara. i did not know about mm mohammed. back then -- i did not know mohammed. my wife came from that community and i realized all this stuff was going on and i did not realize it. sometimes it is just about not having the same exposure. one thing that struck me

is the american muslim communities. you can make an argument, take apac which is a very strong pressure group for juice in four -- for jews in america. should there be an analog to apac or one that is more thattive with the caveat there are so many different groups it is hard to speak with one voice? is the american community one -- well served by the pressure groups that exist? >> you may disagree. i think there is something unique about islam in america, it might be a mistake -- this is what happens. people trying to make islam in a -- and ahnicity deep net -- and ethnicity. it is not because of mal in --

it is not because of mal intent. are 90% south asian, which is fine on campus. it may take on an ethnic flavor. i think that is natural. i think we have to be careful to just assume that muslims mean there is going to be one common the. they're going to be political differences, and aims. i do not think that has to happen. if we force of that, we may be in trouble. ,> we are all human beings people operate in many different expressions. we have to have as many diverse persons out there. many muslims of varying expression, and we encourage that. in our experiences, it is more important than ever to amplify diversity.

something i mentioned, a lawyer in virginia, he said something to meet which i thought was interesting. he is a secularized muslim, very different from his cousin. no one speaks for me. which i thought was an interesting -- the groups that do exist are very religious in flavor. it is a quasi-muslim brotherhood organization in some shape or form. think secular voices aren't going to have, you may disagree with me on that. -- i think secular voices are important to have. it is like christians and jewish communities to -- communities. what happened to somalia and issuessure that women's

are heard, african americans in charles still -- in charleston and domestic terrorism. you have to be respectful of our collective american identity. that is something that we encourage. -- will doubt be difficult will there be disagreements? absolutely. it is important to have multiple views and it does not have to be old guard that have been around. nasa -- they do not necessarily speak for individuals anymore. thank you so much. and has been a really interesting panel. i wonder if you would comment more about someone who is not a muslim. i wonder if you would comment about how that is played out with the whole saudi influence of all the literature and money coming in. we have seen, in europe, a

pushback on that. i was really curious about your comments about 45% of foreign muslims living below poverty? that is something we never hear. treeu travel in arab count -- arab countries there is a lot of prejudice in north african towards north-- african countries and probably americans as well. >> one of the things is the communities, especially soup kitchens. are not for muslim americans, they are for all americans. you can get a warm meal down in washington and alabama, i can go anywhere and they open their homes, their centers to help everyone. was the first

individual to be involved in interfaith activity. i recognize that my neighbor was an orthodox jewish family and i used to go over for dinner's here in i respected them -- i used to go over for dinners. i respected them. i had evangelical and catholic friends. that is important. i give you that point as an example to say that the muslim community is not all wealthy and successful. there are individuals who are struggling to meet daily needs. they need spiritual support and jobs, and resources. the community takes that very seriously to address those in a balanced fashion. as it relates to racial issues, i think in the muslim community, -- i can tell you many occasions studying in egypt and morocco.

, i was watching a video, where individuals may not know the assumption that you know a language. there are words that you hear. it is interesting, as you can imagine. i only give you that to say, that is the reality of life. withinre individuals faith-based communities in a racial hierarchy, even in islam. there is thathat issue taking place. muslims in this community have been vocal about it and sometimes get criticized for their vocalization that muslims have not always lived up to the standard of what they say they believe, despite religious mandates. i will touch on it with a

little twist, the idea of a trait becoming adopted by folks who are not muslim relates to in the u.s.t muslim have had this ability to make things cool and let that spread. if you go back -- just think about muhammad ali, malcolm x. and the original nation of islam, the impact to have a to havet name became -- a muslim name became a thing of pride. if you thought about islam as an african american contacts, islamic teachers took on something in the coal troll context. -- culturaltrunk context. that is what needs to happen now. i can point to the legacy of the early 60's legacy of muslims. what i am interested in, and

thinking a lot about, what is the legacy now? would we think of african-american muslims, folks in the past and see how their culture spread and impacted the broader society. what about now? these are things we are things we're thinking about as we engage youth, and pop culture. i think islam is cool. i think it is really cool, and there are aspects of it that should be wrapped up in a very positive way to fit the needs of the broader community. african-american community and the broader community in general. i think that is a good thing. peter: just behind the doctor. i am kim russell. quick question, comparing the african-american muslim experience to those abroad. do you think the reason extremism never evolved through -- from the african-american

community is because they have legitimate means of influencing political systems? >> that gets the idea of the american exceptionalism. i think there is a big difference. that, younowledge have extremists, folks who have this message that resonates with them. it will be impossible to a nokia late any of -- everyone -- in everyone. -- one of the key things we saw is one of the things in america that we do not see the same type of radicalization as we see overseas. some of it is coal troll and structural, and some of it is geographic. or --tural and structure structural and geographic. in europe, you are in the middle of networks where jihad its are .oving from chechnya

it is easy to connect with them. days, it was easy to connect with a jihadist group in europe. here in the united states, much more difficult. the u.s. is blessed by being a big island for you do not have -- where you do not have -- there has been a more openness to religion because of the american history and religion being a part of it, or an openness of religion. people do not shun it the same way. that allows people not only to engage with the political sphere but have variations. that, jihadist message is the west is keeping you from for filling your religion and against your prayer. if you are having your islamic life, all the things that

typically and traditionally you need, you are able to do that and engage the society as that as a muslim. not perfect, everyone -- it does not for everyone. we have more of that in the united states. peter: this gentleman. can you you lay out more specifically the recommendations in your report of how imam mohammed's community can be used to help other communities. >> i laid out a few, and i think one, and i will walk through a few of them. one, we recommend engaging african-american imams. prison systemhe and understanding various individuals who have varying degrees of ideological interpretation.

african-american muslims have been able to travel, all of us -- when i was a young boy, i would translate the text. i was going through them a lot. have the religious understanding, but are part of the american experience as well. offer an we alternative to preventing violent extremism. the program offering preventative tools. some of the work we have been doing with gilliam and working point-to-point with individuals who have already been radicalized -- working with am.li changing individuals who do not want to go over the state and

also making them part of the american fabric and not having them stray into a black nationalist rhetoric. it seems similar to the issues about the broader arabic ward -- world. it can be very helpful. thirdly we offer a rapid response as it relates to individuals. we have a rapid response office to prevent a counter violent extremism. areng individuals who qualified to deal with these issues, there are a lot of individuals working this problem set. to come on this issue quickly overnight. trump -- of the trump administration does not counter extremism. the money is just going to run out at some point. it is hard to measure success

with countering violent extremism. the trump administration has needzed that they something to counterterrorism. have you assess what the trump administration is or is not doing? >> with the appointment of john bolton it will be very interesting in terms of the language that may be used. werely, a lot of people thinking, there is an uproar on counter radical islam. we did not see that. the national security strategy which was written by h.r. mcmaster, they did not use any of these phrases. they talked about jihadist terrorists. we do not know. 8 we do not -- >> we do not know, the jury is still out. in all fairness there is a lot of pushback that one can give to the administration. the administration did not use that language yet. we will see.

peter: what did you make when president trump and gave a big beach which was the analog of president obama's speech in cairo. what did you make of that speech? >> talking about earlier last year. , i do not have a strong opinion. i do not have a strong opinion. beene speech could of given by obama, minus the iran-b ashing. >> being in government. it is easy to say a lot of things when you are out campaigning. then when you go and you are the guest, or when you are writing actual strategy. there is a big difference. political sphere where islam is talked about is very different in many ways from what happens when you are really

making decisions, trying to write policy and engage communities or governments. it is very different. that would explain the tone of that conversation. could you speak into the microphone and identify it yourself so the c-span audience can identify you and hear you. >> thank you for this presentation. question on the program you had that was mentioned in your report. i was wondering how you determined who would be best chosen to be a participant in this program. how did you develop the curriculum and what is your overall impact and assessments of the program? peter: what is that program? the project initially started

as a pilot project in washington, d.c., and we worked with a cross-section of individuals, muslim and non-muslims, south asian, arab, latino, etc. we were trying to come up with thinking,critical helping young people to think deeply about issues and do it in a fashion in a safe space environment. usedshington, d.c., we from the socratic method, brainstorming ideas, do it in a wayion, a co-constructive to simplify it. the curriculum was tailored towards u.s. specific diverse issues from geopolitics to my andng -- to modernity, history. we were able to do this in nigeria, where we deal with islamic civilization, culture,

socratic method, islamic philosophy, western philosophy -- philosophy. there, we address issues from northeast nigeria who are dealing with islamic ashes -- issues in the state of nigeria. we were dealing with the issue of 110 girls who were abducted. this was a group of 45 individuals. the goal is to expand this out. the measurement of success of what we have seen so far is an increased amount of learning, and being able to have a critical thinking space with their counterparts. gender, of differing religious points, dish -- issues of -- how to engage the government. >> and you have a real life

trial participant because my teenage son was part of your first circle in d.c.. my son participated, and the wasg i would say gave him just an appreciation for critical thinking and doing it in an environment where he is with his peers. it was a group of young teenagers, meeting and discussing these issues, it was a discovery. for him it is something that helped him become more probing, a deeper thinker. peter: this lady here. is kristin and i worked at the bridge initiative at georgetown university. mohammed, you said that entrapment is a counterterrorism tool for law enforcement. please clarify what you mean and how entrapment sits within this counter radicalization model that you have identified?

what i was inim: fort -- what i was explaining was that law enforcement has been using entrapment to deal with urban communities for a long. of time. of time. period you must know that muslim communities have pushed back. as a african-american, muslim, i recognize that these are two dynamics of very much part and parcel of law enforcement techniques and tools. aso not see that --ticularly anything to be it is not a surprise. i think with communities thinking that this will be something that will change overnight. with policy, advocating and people wanting to engage with that. it can be a part of it. it is nothing new.

it is a part of a larger counterterrorism tool, saying that that is part of the larger intelligence, security and art that has been taking place for decades. peter: just to clarify, there is no terrorism case in which entrapment has been argued successfully. specific, has a very even from a legal point of view, it is not entrapment. when the undercover informant comes in, he says to the person for or five tames dos times on tape he asked if you want to do that. the use of informants is part of the law enforcement all caps. peter: this gentleman here. i think this will be the last question. hi.

i'm a stint at the university of colorado. student at i am a the university of colorado. you guys talked about counter terrorism and extremism. there is a unique problem to do that -- doing that on the political left. a good example is the founder of your organization being mislabeled by the southern poverty law center as an anti-muslim extremist, which is ridiculous. is, how would you recommend we attack that problem, and try to create some unity on our side, and attacking a problem that should be a universal one, that we should all want to use -- all want to solve. >> there are individuals and organizations who have done some good work historically. they have lost their bearings a bit in the contemporary context.

we believe in constructive engagement with all sides. i think the left, the right, and find above the need to careful balance of how do we work in a nuanced fashion on these issues. labeling individuals that can canpeople hurt and killed affect people's lives, including death threats. i think that it has to be done in a way where it is balance. and me being head of it is to keep that balance moving forward and this report is part of that. it showing that balanced fashion, everything we said today is part of building off the tradition of the great work of the community and the work that we seek to have coalitions across all political aisles and communities. think you are i

right, a lot of this, i come from the standpoint where we often think about things based on what we are exposed to. and what we expose ourselves to. i think the biggest thing i am seeing in this environment, where everyone is in their corners and camp, and there seems to be more interested in proving your point of view. the thing i like to bring is exposure. to often do you get to talk muslims who have worked in counterterrorism? a lot of people have views about from fox news.sm have they ever talk to a muslim in counterterrorism? it is people who are against cbe but have they dealt with informant issues and that nuance. i think that is a key thing we need, more exposure. if you have more -- people who

if you arere ideas, not exposed to them how are you going to understand it. we have to get away from trying to prove our positions. we want our organization to get points. we need to engage and learn. i will end with a quote that i think is appropriate, and terms why white aren't -- by -- people -- i will quote the doughboy from the movie boys in the hood. "they don't know, they don't show, or they don't care." -- to welly want really want to solve this problem or be with ourselves and prove our point? that is what we have to address. ofer: i want to thank both you gentlemen for an interesting and illuminating conversation. [applause]

[captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2017] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [muttering]

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