civil rights and race relations. as always, we'll take your calls and you can join the conversation on facebook and twitter as well. "washington journal" is next. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2016]] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. isit ncicap.org] host: good morning, it is easter sunday for those celebrating around the world. we begin "washington journal" with the question about morality in the white house. last week, former president jimmy carter said most people want a president who has some bave moral values. this morning, we want to know if you agree. does character matter in the white house and how important are our president's moral values? republicans can call in at 202-748-8001. democrats, 202-748-8000. independence, 202-748-8002. you can also catch up with us on

social media, on twitter. it's twitter.com/cspanwj. on facebook, it's facebook.com/cspan. a very good sunday morning to you. you can start calling in now on this question, this easter sunday morning. as we show you that interview with former president jimmy carter from last week on "cbs this morning," talking about morality in the white house. >> i am almost embarrassed to ask this question. but you negotiates there's so many problems facing america and people in need. and yet, there's an entire this current ut president and an alleged affair he had with an adult film star. what do you make of that? >> this current president he will help the demo party in 2018 perhaps and in 2020. and it will be damaging to president trump. most people want a president whom they trust to tell the truth always and who has some,

basic moral values, including loyalty to his own wife. so in a way, it'll be damaging, but i don't think it's going to have nearly as much affect as it would have had say 20 years ago. host: after those statements were aired, sarah huckabee sanders was asked about them. here was her response. reporter: what sort of reaction did the white house had about jimmy carter saying most people wanting a president with basic moral values? >> look, i think the people of this country came out in -- by the millions to support donald trump, support his agenda and the policies that he's pushing forward and he has been delivering day in, day out on that front. he's kept a number of his campaign promises and that's only been within the first year and a half. i think the people that voted for and came out and supported

him still do so and do so because they believed in the agenda that he was driving and he's been delivering on that since he came into office. host: in the wake of those comments last week by the former president, we're asking you how important are our president's moral values? phone numbers, republicans, 202-748-8001, democrats, 202-748-8000, independents, 202-748-8002. as we said, you can always catch up with us on social media. a number of you have already responded on our facebook page this morning. it's facebook facebook. doug where is in personally and traditionally in the earlier past, morals were considered important and structural to sound fundamental leadership in. clearly cades it becomes a much less important feature for voters after

clinton. it was clear for a large segment of voters and means almost nothing just as long as the appearance of getting the job don is maintained. and christopher daniels where is -- the same people who condemn bill clinton 20 years ago with his moral failings are now defending their support for donald trump in spite of his moral failings. phone lines are open. mike's up first in st. louis, missouri. line for december. mike, good morning. caller: good morning. host: go ahead, sir. caller: of course morals are important. but, you know, we're all human beings. but i think jimmy carter, he's talking about just telling the truth, which, you know, that's all we need to do. ut i also like to say i wish you would have something about subscribers, to newspapers

calling in. because i try to listen to your show but a lot of times, there's misinformed or uninformed callers and i'm a subscriber of the "st. louis post-dispatch" and i think you would have better shows if sometimes you would just limit the calls to subscribers. i wrote susan swanier a letter about that. so thank you for letting me make this comment although it's not quite on topic. host: peter is in west springfield, massachusetts, a republican. go ahead, peter. caller: i actually -- actually, it's an independent. i would be a republican if they weren't so greedy to begin with. but anyway, how would jimmy carter feel about j.f.k.'s philandering marilyn monroe? how would he feel about king david and what he did? yet ultimately god considered him a man after his own heart.

i think donald trump probably did have a sorted past and came o terms of it and decided that it was a mistake and had a change of heart somewhere along the way. i saw the "60 minutes" interview saying he was a buffoon and all that but that's probably true but i think his ideals and the things that he's trying to accomplish are good for america. host: so, peter, stick on the line for a second. amy sullivan where is in today's opinion pages of the "new york times" about trump's christian soldiers. she where is in that piece, nearly 18 months after mr. trump won the presidency with about 80% of the white evangelical vote, he retains all of that what do you think

about that, peter? caller: that's true. because i think a lot of people who are evangelical, who believe in the mess ya, wanted to see -- messiah wanted to see gorsuch in the supreme court. and other than the fact that a lot of the times, he's buffoon and a blowhard. but i think his heart is in the right place. i think he wants to do the right thing but i also think that his ego is huge and he has -- doesn't have a very good idea of how to deal with that. host: that's peter in massachusetts. more from amy sullivan and her column this morning.

trump's christian soldiers. she said you could open a publishing press devoted to the theological and associate i don't imagine cal explanation for this phenomenon from thin likely belief that mr. trump found jesus on the campaign trail to the idea that his presidency is all part of god's plan to the role per cougs narrative than christian nationalism played in the world iew -- host: from the pages of the "new york times." laura is in garland, texas, a democrat. good morning, laura. what do you think? caller: good morning. how are you this easter morning? host: i'm doing well.

caller: my comment is to be a ristian, to me, is to be christ-like. and i don't see donald trump as being christ-like. know for a fact that jesus christ was honest and he was truthful and he was concerned about all people. and from what i have been seeing with donald trump, he's everything but christ-like. and his followers, especially the -- i can't even pronounce the name right now, but his christian followers seem to be hypocrites because what they are accepting from their president, or our president, they will not accept from anyone else. host: so laura, john smith where

is in on our twitter page. more important than moral values dissipatic values. trump is very patriotic is what john smith where is. what do you think about that? we lost a caller but we'll ask daniel that question in florida, republican. daniel, go ahead. caller: yes. the morals of our president are very important, you know. and jimmy carter is totally ight about everything. he's right about everything because of the way everybody was brought up. understanding he's not the greatest president but he's totally right, you know? and trump doesn't have a clue. host: daniel, did you support donald trump in the presidential primary in florida? caller: oh, yes, i did and i think it was a mistake.

you know, it was a total mistake. only from the recent last year of all the stuff he's been doing. host: what specifically changed your mind about him, daniel? caller: personally, first thing was him getting out of the everything with all different countries and stuff with the pollution and stuff like that accord. host: you're talking about the paris climate agreement? caller: paris climate agreement. it's like that has to happen just because people are abiding bit, we're just going to say forget about it? you know, that's wrong. maybe he should try to get these guys on the same page but don't jump off the page. host: that's daniel in florida this morning. a few more comments from twitter. dr. who where is in yes, a president should have morals. this man has no morals no, scruples, no mind. michael says in the earlier

past, the media largely hid the inconvenient facts on the president's life. and carol from florida where is in there are many kinds of moral values. i don't think obama had moral values when it came to lying. trying to get information on those republican folks and a biased f.b.i. staying in florida, mark is in melbourne, florida, democrat. good morning. caller: hi. how are you doing? host: doing well. go ahead. caller: i think that donald trump is the worst president that this country has ever had. has a no qualifications to be president. as far as religious people backing him, i have a friend in delaware who is religious who thinks this guy is terrific no matter what he does. i hope he is impeached and removed from office. he is a terrible person. host: so mark -- caller: i mean, happy easter. host: hang on the line for a second. i want to read a piece to you

from david brody. it was in the "new york times" earlier this year at the end of february. david brodie, a journalist for the christian broadcast network. so stick with me while i read you this. does mr. trump have moral failing? yes. critics suggest hypocrisy who are quick to denounce the ethical failings of others who don't have an r next to their name. the gel is to winning the larger battle over the control of the culture. for evangelicals, voting the macrois the moral thing to do even if the candidate is morally flawed. evangelicals have tried the moral candidate before. jimmy carter was once a evangelical candidate. how did that work out in the macro? george w. bush was the evangelical candidate in 2000. he pushed conservative policies but he doesn't come close to mr. trump's courageous blunt strokes in defense of evangelicals. evangelicals have found their man. it may seem mystifying to

outsiders but for someone like me with a front row seat to an inside view, it makes perfect sense. go ahead, mark. caller: how do i feel about that statement? host: yes, sir. caller: i think -- i don't think that donald trump is a religious man at all. he cheats on his wife. he is completely abusive to people to twitter. he's a terrible person. i don't agree with that at all. he is a bad man who deserves to be removed from office. host: vincent is in lancaster, california, up early with us. line for independents. vincent, go ahead. caller: good to hear this discussion. absolute moral character. and it comes down to, you know,

having character or lack of character and in terms of whether or not we the people can judge, you know, the person or persons in office because i want to extend this to congress yet the spotlight was shifted to congress as was in 1994. a lot of congressmen resigned that year in election year. and maybe 2018 will be the year that a lot of politicians will change. i don't know if that will make a whole lot of difference. i'm more in favor of determining that great america may be a land f immigrants from argentina as opposed to whether or not donald trump slept with porn stars 20

years ago. we all have those weaknesses but that's not why i would fault donald trump. it comes down to whether or not america will continue to follow whichever pied piper can lay doesn't a few billion dollars during election year. host: and what do you think appens in 2020, vincent? caller: i would really hope that y 2020, the people who support let's say the -- let's say the evangelical choice -- fundamentalistses who thought nixon was way too far off went through wallace. we started discussions about making, you know, as i travel

through the states to visit my grandkids and make california great again, utah great again. it's ridiculous to continue to play whatever these, you know, e'd pirpse -- pipers did bought themselves an election. -10 clorks coming 8:30 we're going to be taking up civil rights and race relations in 1968. we're going to be joined by thleen cleaver and professor

peniel joseph from university of texas at austin. that's about an hour and 15 minutes this morning. bob is in buoy, maryland, line for independents. we're asking about your thoughts on the president's moral values. caller: the united states wasn't really -- it wasn't founded by politicians. it was founded by leaders. and i think that the leaders who founded the country had pretty olid morals. we still question them. but they -- history has shown that they had great morals. abraham lincoln, for instance, we've heard a lot about him recently and abraham lincoln had terrific morals. he rose up from poverty and

basically worked an indentured servitude as a child and, you know, went on to lead the country into a civil war, which i think 160 years later, most americans feel that that was probably a good thing. i don't think anybody did at the time. host: so bob, are morals a pricker -- predictor of success for a president? caller: well, it depends on whether you wanted to find a president that's a politician or as a leader. i think that all -- just about ery president that we've had didn't come away from the historians completely unscathed. you know, even william henry harris, i mean, good lord, the man couldn't even stay healthy.

so did he have good morals? we never found out. we're not even 18 months into this guy's presidency and i feel silly defending him because you know, he's clearly not a career politician. but here we are -- by the way, happy easter. here we are on easter, debating this man's morals and, you know, at least he was willing to take the job. at least he was willing to tually go out and put in 70, 80 hour a week to get elected. i don't know if he needed the money. i hope he didn't. but, you know, we've got two and a half years to go. and if we start questioning morals too much, we may not have a news media left. host: bob in bouye, maryland,

this morning in terms of how historians have treated past presidents. a history professor and director of american studies at the st. joseph university in philadelphia. she had a column in the ashbury park press from last summer talking about character and the president and i she takes on this question of how good a predictor character is as a measure of a president's likely success in office. she writes character is important but it is not an ironclad predictor. think of herbert hoover. he was an excellent commerce secretary. he proved his good character in numerous humanitarian efforts in world war i and after. yet he was not a good president. the very traits that in other circumstances have served him well prevented him from being flexible when he needed to be, especially to deal with the great depression. jimmy carter too, another president of high moral character but one who struggled

to deal with the hostage cry is and economic challenges effectively. going tread more of her column, ashbury park press from july of last year, july 28, 2017. richard is in durham, north carolina, a republican. richard, go ahead. caller: yes, i have a couple of suggestions for a topic for your show and then i think if you look at trump's racial attitude, you can very easily discover that he has very, very bad moral character. and that americans needs an american that can lead through ome type of moral character. when are we going to have a discussion on israel? do we? what values do we share with srael who is refusing refuge

for africans to live there? this is known around the world as in apartheid country. what values do we share with them? host: richard, israel very much in the news today. this is the front page of "the washington post." a protest against israel. the story noting that there's 15 people were killed by the gaza strip during what palestinian factions billed as a peaceful rch to return -- host: israeli prime minister netanyahu praised the israeli military for guarding the country's border saying israel will act firmly and decisively in protective sovereignty and

security of its citizens. more than 700 people were injured with live ammunition in that demonstration according to the palestinian health ministry in gaza. 49 were wounded saturday. it said on saturday, that's in addition to the 15 that were reported killed. the united nations on saturday said it was deeply concerned and called for a transparent independent investigation. jerry is in new jersey, a democrat. what do you think about this question of morals in the white house? caller: first, i want to say good morning to everybody and happy easter and happy holiday to the jewish people. you know, this question just cracks me up. i don't think it's that important and i'll tell you why. because the democrats and the news media didn't get as upset when the democrats -- you know, you look at this new movie coming out about ted kennedy with the chap way -- i'm sorry.

host: that's ok. caller: you look at that movie -- i'm sorry, i mispronounced it. host: that's ok. caller: and you could just see the corruption and you're going to find out and i'm surprised you're not having a show about this. you're going to find out the corruption in the democrat party and what they did to president trump and you tell me who has morals. and the other thing i have a question. obama still has that woman living in the house with him the one that was his like john kelly is for trump. still living in the house with him and michelle. do you think that maybe something is kind of fishy there too? wonder what she's sleeping with, michelle or president obama. host: who are you referring to, jerry? caller: the one that what john kelly is to trump and i forget that title, i'm sorry. host: chief of staff? caller: yes. what was her name? the woman that's still living with him. you know the one that lived with him before and i would be curious to know why.

host: i'm not sure what you're referring to, jerry but shelly is in massachusetts, a republican. line for republican. sorry. go for it. [laughter] caller: good morning and happy easter to the world. i think she's referring to valerie jarrett. host: i'm not sure of her living situation at the moment. caller: well, she did move in with him right afterwards so they could carry on their destruction of the united states of america. but i just wanted to say why is there no interest in what john kennedy did 10 years before he became president or barack obama's promiscuous behavior before he became president? the was no interest in that at all. and all of a sudden, we're comparing trump with clinton. donald trump did not have any . pe of sex in the oval office that was a desecration of our

house. and the should be no comparison. donald trump is trying to straighten this country out from the democrats who are trying to make this a liberal progressive socialistic country and it's the wrong direction. and i think it's pathetic that c-span chose this particular topic for the first thing on easter morning. thank you for listening to me. have a great day. host: a comment from twitter from robert this morning. morals didn't matter when bill clinton was president. why should it matter now? david this grand rapids, michigan, line for democrats. go ahead. caller: i just -- you know, they were so hard on bill clinton. that's my thing is the two face in the republican party. you know, it's a bad idea that they got what they wanted, so, you know, that's all they cared about. they got the supreme court thing and, you know, they got their way in that aspect and i'm not saying that they're abandoning trump but they're definitely

getting what they voted for in that sense. but to say that his morals really matter, i would have had to agree with him in that sense. it's more about him being a leader and he's not that. so you take his morals and you take his leadership and you just throw them out the window. we really need to get this guy out of office. he's a crook. he's a crsm all this badmouthing of baltimore man, i just can't stand it. that dude tried his best. he tried his best to take care of the american people, not just white people. you know? like he tried to take care of everybody. but we had a congress and a senate that was totally against everything that he was trying to do which was save us, trying to save the planet. you know, health care for everybody. what is wrong with that? i just don't get the american people -- excuse me, i just don't get the republicans. i just don't get their selfishness, their two-facedness

and their complicitly involved in the downfall of this great country that was really never great. thank you. host: a couple of different questions on that poll about morality and character. one asking how important is morality when it comes to elected officials? how much should they embody in their personal life in order to carry out their official duties? 75% saying it was very important. 19% saying somewhat important. 3% saying not important. not too important. just 1% saying not important at all. the question then moves to questions about donald trump and his morality and honesty. this question, please indicate whether the following statements apply to putt.

he has moral. 26% said yes. 55% said no. on the question of whether the president is honest. 32% said yes. 53% said no. that poll from "politico." stanley is in massachusetts, an independent. good morning. caller: morning. host: go ahead. caller: happy easter for everybody. it ain't going to be a happy easter until you find out that i sent a letter to mr. obama explaining what global warming is and how to take care of it. has imply, mother nature set up trivial little riddles. you burn the substance, but you release the gas. other half -- host: stanley, get us to this question about the importance of our president's moral values. caller: moral, yeah.

-- forre like, you know, the reason he is not really honest but he is honest to the public in a manner of speaking of fixing things that have been corrupted for years and years. and now, the only way this is going to get straightened out is by simple laws. host: that's stanley in massachusetts this morning. lance us in lyndonville, vermont, a republican. lance, go ahead. caller: good morning. i just like to give everyone a happy easter. people seem to be confusing morals with sainthood. no person is perfect. and all of a sudden, we've come to this new wave where everyone

cannot sin before. obody could have done anything it's also the line along the divine. -- what we're talking about the president's morals, but what has he done that's morally wrong? that's my whole point. host: that's lance in lyndonville, vermont. more of your calls in just a second. but we've talked about this topic of morality in the white house and specifically regarding donald trump before on the "washington journal." we were joined by family research council president tony perkins just about a month and a half ago to talk about this subject and we asked him about president trump's morality. here is some of that interview. tony: is the republican party under president trump represent the value of evangelicals? >> i would say the policies.

the policies of this administration that are most clearly represented in the party platform which this president has embraced and is carrying out. so i would say the policy that we see from this administration reflect that. host: why be so clear about separating the froil the man? guest: ultimately, that's what this election was about. evangelicals did not support donald trump based, upon his personal advertisement this election went from being a personality-driven election to a policy-driven election. xit polling show that 59% of pence-trump voters voted for them on religious freedom and life. so the president was successful in turning this to a policy election. he is maintaining his support by advancing those policies. host: if you want to watch that full interview with tony perkins, you can go back as you can with all of our interviews here on the "washington journal" and see them at c-span.org. about a half appear hour left in

this segment. we're asking this question in this first segment of the "washington journal." how important are our president's moral values? 1.ne lines, republicans, 1 james this maryland. a democrat. james, go ahead. caller: thanks for taking my call. you know, the hypocrisy of the republicans, i mean, these are the same folks that said obama lied, obama lied. are u can keep your -- they kidding me? this man lies like 5,000 times a day. and you ask the republicans -- i mean, donald trump lies, they could not even answer you. they have excuses around him. this man, all he wanted to -- health care and it was a crime.

[indiscernible] they rather die of the disease than let obama succeed. indiscernible] you see -- host: i got your point, james. steve is in robertsville, missouri, an independent. steve, go ahead. caller: hey. thank you. good morning, john. praise to the lord jesus christ who has risen. i think the bigger problem is the division in this country mostly coming from the fake news propaganda fox newsradio. you know, division don't come from god. i asked my republican friends there. division comes from the devil himself. if he can divide this country and get us divide against each

other instead of coming together and there's good and bad in everybody and every party too. and there's common ground but there's so much greed and corruption and one-sided stuff and you've got fox news just salon determining. you know, slander is murder to god. and i guess these people do not know. when you just think of a sin, you've already committed it in your mind, then you've already committed according to god. so, i think that's the biggest problem. if we boycott fox news, we would be a lot better off. host: that's steve in missouri this morning. a few more comments from facebook and from twitter as well. on twitter, matthew where is morals are very important. without good values, law-abiding citizens will have their constitutional rights infringed upon while illegal aliens are allowed to break the law. david says the word i like to use is decency. in my mind, that's combination of integrity, empathy and wisdom. trump does not have a shred of

decency in him. a few more comments from our facebook page. karen where is they are extremely important. the leader of the free world should be of high moral standing. trump is everything one should not be. the good news, she adds, love will triumph over evil. and gary says i've been told from the 1960's that they do not matter. got a double dose of that through the bill clinton era. i'm forced to ask whose morals are we using as a baseline definition of morals? thomas is in statesville, north carolina, a democrat. good morning. caller: morning. you just comment that read there, it's depending on the definition who it is at the time. the republican and religious sector in this country is looking at this as the means or the end justice the means.

so it doesn't matter how they get to what they want. it doesn't matter. but what i think is what's going to end up happening is i believe the -- they're going to get themselves in such a position to where they're going to put themselves in a spot to where they're not going to be able to make laws or decisions anymore because of this complete follow the right that they want. it's like the one you had, the individual you had speaking that was on the show about their policies, what they want in the end. that's all they want. and restrictity. they just want be able to tell everybody else what they can and can't do. so, thank you. host: bob is a republican from maryland. good morning. caller: good morning. happy easter. host: go ahead. caller: hello? hello? host: go ahead, bob. caller: oh, yeah. well, i mean, the democrats have some nerves. they're the ones that take

religious to school, they misinterpret the letter from thomas jefferson. and the liberals and the progressives, they try to misinterpret it as separation of church and state. the democrats are the ones that push for abortion. they're the ones that push for separation, church and state no matter what you believe. they're the ones that had same-sex marriage and same sex bedrooms and pedophiles and full grown men. the democrats are the party of the debt. they have always been and they always will be. host: let's go to eddie in baltimore, maryland, line for democrats. go ahead. caller: good morning, america and i would like to say happy easter everybody to. host: same to you, eddie. go ahead. caller: yeah. moral. moral character. moral character's a very important thing. the founding fathers put into

the constitution one nation under god. to that last caller and to the republican party, you always want to blame democrats. the person who took prayer out of schools was an atheist white woman who had no political standing. she was just an atheist. so he's sitting here saying that democrats have no moral character or no christian values. but given to the subject of moral character and the president. i believe this president doesn't have any character. i believe that the republicans who are calling saying they support this man have no character or moral values either. and i'm not going to go through the class of what the republicans and democrats -- there are great many bad people in the world. the standard is the majority of the american people are good people. i don't care what their political standings are. we have a lot of good people in this country and we need to pull it back together because it is seriously fallen apart and we

are losing our values and our -- in the wompled we're supposed to be the beacon for the world. my prayer today on easter sunday is god, unite this house because a child divided will not stand. that's all i got to say. host: a couple of callers have brought up the issue of abortion and what it means to this debate of morality want to the two parties. in her column today in the "new york times," amy sullivan takes up this issue. the column again, is "trump's christian soldiers." she where is the biggest stumbling block for conservative evangelicals is the scarlet abortion, a, that democrats wear for their supportive abortion rights. evangelical preachers --

host: in sullvap's column at the "new york times." an independent from indiana. good morning. caller: hi. how are you doing? host: doing well. caller: i like to talk about the civics class. i've been seen 13 presidents and i've seen good and bad. and i think maybe president trump missed civics class. i don't think he should hurt somebody or disparage them or dismiss them simply because you disagree with them.

and this insulting people the way he insults people and these evangelicals that support him, i believe in god but i don't believe you have to go to church on sunday to pray to god that these evangelicals, they're missing a lot in how it is to be civility and people should have and i don't like the way they try to tell me how to live or what saint i believe in god and i don't have to go to church on sunday to pray to him. but getting down to president trump, there's something seriously wrong with him. he is the most disgusting and despicable president i have seen since richard nixon. thank you. host: oroville, you said you've seen 13 president, you've been alive for 13 presidents. who would you consider the most moral? we lost him.

don is in california. go ahead. caller: morality, that's a relative term, relative to your own morals and i think that is where the division is on where professors think that president trump is immoral and that president obama was moral. because to me, president obama was a highly immoral man. you were speaking about how this article wrote about nobody's pro abortion. i'm sorry, obama was proabortion. he was prolate term abortions where they actually crack the skulls of babies inside of a woman and dragged them out. that's a very immoral thing to me. and it's not through the progressive. and the fact that during an election year, president obama lied to us in office and played down benghazi because it was an election year. to me, that was highly immoral. now for them, like your last caller who said that president

trump insults people and there's smog wrong with him and then he proceeded to personally insult president trump. you know, wake up. you're not making much sense there. you can't -- you know, morals, insulting somebody is not immoral. it's how you act and how you are throughout your day, throughout your life. president trump throughout his life has been a generous man. i haven't heard have many people complain about the wages he's paid them or how he's paid them. and if you look at it all in all, president trump's actions speak much louder than his words. host: that's don in creative. as we've said before, we've talked about this issue before on the "washington journal." conservative syndicated columnist mona sharon was on "washington journal" early last month. and she was talking about how conservative who is overlook president trump and roy moore's moral failings could be called out for charges of hypocrisy.

here's a bit from that interview. >> while my fellow panelist and i certainly agree on many things about where feminism has gone wrong and many other issues, i felt that it was hypocritical on our part to discuss this whole question of sexual harassment and sexual assault and so on without knowledging there are major figures in our matter including the president who has accused of atrocious behavior of . men and who acknowledge it the president did about grabbing women against their consent and keeps having multiple extramarital affairs and so on. you know, it's just the list is very, very long. moreover, this party with the president's leadership endorsed for the united states senate roy accusedo was a credibly

child molester and until we republican women stand up and shout about that, we're not going to have any credibility when we're discussing the me too movement. host: and again, if you want to watch that entire interview, it's available at c-span.org. about 10 minutes left in this first hour of the "washington journal" this morning. we're taking up this question. how important are president's moral values? michelle has been waiting on our democratic line in ohio. good morning. caller: bill clinton was impeached. but for -- trying to up which is exactly what trump is doing and having people pay for that non-disclosure or disclosure, he's encouraging other people to send for him as far as

evangelicals go. why don't they have him say what he did and ask for forgiveness? if they're evangelicals. host: speaking of evangelicals, myelin burk where is on twitter the last two evangelical presidents were jimmy carter and george b. -- w. bush. i don't think we want another. don is on the line for republicans. hi. caller: hi. this question implies that trump s immoral. host: we're basing it off of jimmy carter's interview last week. caller: that's fine. that's fine. the reason trump won was because he said things no one else would say, even including republicans. he called illegals illegals. no one would touch that. it's the third rail.

he said i'm going to build a wall. no one would touch that. he said i'm going to reduce taxes and increase the economy. no one would touch that, republicans or democrats. this man is a nonnon. ou may not like him. -- phenomenon. you may not like him. he's new york, queens. he's got his own style. but he's the most successful guy . i'm 70 myself. and our generation and his values and his vision is what's propelled him into the presidency. and obviously, 60 million people agree with that. host: the front page of the herald bulletin yesterday morning out of anderson, indiana. the headline. they went one wavering the heartland is solidly behind the policies of trump, but no not a fan of the chaos. marsha is in north carolina, an independent. good morning.

caller: good morning. there is no god. human beings make their decisions based on the way they were raised. and that is what morality is. for example, if i had a grenade and i had to choose whether to throw to it the left and kill four people or throw to it the right and kill 100 people, i might just die. i'm going to throw to it the left because of the number of the people i might save. but when i said those people were old and dying and they were just out of a hospital and in five seconds they're going to and dead anyway and those four people are babies, i might have to choose something else because the babies have a life ahead of them. this is what morality is. making choices. donald trump does not make choices. he kind of just says whatever the person was last around him was saying. and if you look almost every business deal he's been involved in, he has been taken to court because he cheats. so i don't see how he's being

held up as this great morality. but all of us have our failings. our country has failings. it has good parts and it has bad parts. and when we push off our decision making to -- from 200, 400 years ago to make our decisions instead of evaluating them based on the things that we can prove with evidence of science, we make things much more difficult for ourselves. host: marsha in north carolina this morning. one more op-ed for you. this from late last week in the "new york times." charles blow where is his column there. the headline on his op-ed "character should still matter." he where is somehow some folks, mostly conservative ones have found a way to look away, referring to president trump's morality. they see judges, tax cuts, nationalism, a boatload of phobias and permission to be hostile to people whose lifestyles or very existence unnerve them.

they count that as more value than the devaluation of american integrity that trump represents. he says these scandals aren't really about sex. you can read more about charles blow and his column in the "new york times." ben is from massachusetts, a democrat. good morning. caller: good morning. and thanks for taking my calls. one of the things i do want to say to begin with is that about 50% or more of the people who republicans today

were up until the voters's rights were signed into law by lyndon johnson and -- in 1965. were up many of them were democrats. in fact, most of the people who call you from the southern states were democrats. they switched parties because they didn't want to deal with the integration or the inmination of discrimination the democratic party that came into being because many of the black people were democrats. when you talk about morality, a couple of gentlemen has called and talked about the democrats being for abortion. i'm a democrat. i've been a republican also. but i'm a democrat. but i don't necessarily believe in abortion. but i do believe in a personal

choice as a person who -- i'm a man. i don't have abortion. the men who will call, i don't know any one of them who have had abortion. but i'm sure at the same time allow that to be a pepper the me for the woman who happens to get pregnant when she doesn't want to get pregnant. and those same people who go to the bat and then sometimes shoot people to stop abortion are the same people who had indicates for death penalty as you've heard from this president a couple of weeks -- well, last week. he talked about some of the people who should be killed. and sometimes he talks about not with any due process. he just talked about they should be killed. now, that's immoral. when you take away health care from people, see, when people talk about abortion and there are many people who are ill and we have the affordable care act

and those people who did everything in their power to take away health care from human beings in the united states of america that was immoral. because some people who died already since that health care has been eliminated or reduced for the quality -- the coverage has been reduced. host: and a lot of callers waiting. cindy is in norwalk, connecticut, republican. go ahead. caller: hi. i just hope we can remember on this easter sunday the words of jesus, our lord and savior. who said whoever is without sin casts the first stone. and there was nobody that would do it because nobody is without sin. we all have to deal with our god whether, you know, we have an abortion or what have you. i think morality is a big issue with donald trump because he's

really the most hated president ever. let's not forget the antics of kennedy and his brother, ted, leaving a woman to drown. you know, these are all -- sin there is and there's evil in the world and we try our best to overcome it. that shouldn't really matter, you know. if you're basically a good person trying to find your way in this world, trying to do what's right and fair. you know, the president's personal life, you're a man, like everybody else. they're not saints, ok? and i think we're all aware of that. and as far as abortion goes, yep. you know, it is a woman's personal choice. i do believe that. they have to face their god in the end. late-term abortion, i think something should be done about that. you know, nobody could seem to find middle ground. we're too busy pointing fingers at each other.

host: op twitter, mary where is in for society to function, everybody needs moral values such as it's wrong to lie, cheat and steal including the president who should set a example. shared religion is not necessary or shared moral values. one more call on the importance of the president's moral values. giannis new york city, an independent. go ahead. caller: good morning. i would like to just answer the question. donald trump is a product of america. we killed all the indigenous people. we let our black men go to war for us and we didn't back them up or let them come into society normally. i think, you know, as a people of the world, going around colonizing and all the other injustices we've done and, you know, we all know that. i think we're just like an immoral people. and i think it's important for us to fight to get better and try to at least explain that to

each other. we're not all democratic, republican or french vanilla really matters. i just think it's important to, you know, try to get people who are looking for the betterment of mankind, not america. i mean, we are earth,. i have all this and you can't have it. so make sure i put up this border. or maybe vice versa. i would like to see c-span kind of help more in that aspect. i like to see america help more in that aspect in the united nation. but it just doesn't seem like we're really interested in morals, you know? let's not -- you know, let's talk about abortion and religious and all the different ones -- religions and all the different ones and all the cave drawings and the bible maybe 7,000 at best. i don't know. maybe god will care about us for 33,000 or 34,000 years. i think we know what's right.

i don't think we do it. i think we put on our best suits and we put on our little acts and, you know, we're really not out for the betterment of mankind and i think that's really important and that's where our leaders, if they are leaders, that's what they should be saying and that's what they should be doing is trying to show us where to go and how to go there. i think c-span is just as responsible as i am to make this call. i don't know what else to say, john. i hope the world gets better. thank you. bye. host: john, we'll end it there for the first segment of the "washington journal." next, we'll have a discussion about politics and the media with "washington examiner"'s siraj hashmi. and later this morning, our "1968: america in turmoil" series continues. this morning, we'll take a look at civil rights and rape relations in 1968 with kathleen cleaver and peniel joseph. we'll be right back. ♪

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>> i'm really passionate about daca. it is unfair that 700,000 men children's lives hang in the balance because our congress cannot find a solution. it's a human rights issue. >> an children's issue very imp climate change. the notion we are the only country in the world not in the pairy climate accord is a travesty. every other country has recognized the detrimental impact and has taken steps to address it. currently we have not stayed on course with the other countries. >> we are the richest nation in the world yet we have citizens

who go bankrupt trying to cover basic health care costs. i think that is an outrage and that we should be ashamed. > tonight at 8:00 eastern on -span's q&a. we're featuring best selling fiction writers. join us live today at noon eastern.

>> wearneds morning we were in montana for the next stop on the c-span bus 50 capitols tour. the lieutenant governor will be ur best. >> "washington journal" continues. ost: back at our desk. your work revolves that a lot a the intersection of politics and social media and pop culture. i'll start with this story from the "washington post" today that's gotten a lot of attention in the last couple of days about laura ingram taking a holiday amid the controversy. the fox news host taking a one-week vacation. the story notes that the break is coming as she is facing some

of her harshest criticism so far and a growing number of advertisers have left her after act an act ents vist. talk about the intersection here and some of the pitfalls when it comes specifically to this gun control debate. attacking case of the attacking the person and not the idea. i think what laura does and a lot of people in politics is they tend to cross a boundry where they get into personal attackses instead of rebuffing a particular policy agenda. with respect to laura going and mocking david over being rejected from several colleges even though he is accepted by several colleges it's not like colleges pathway to being successful, it is one of many. he just so happens to be successful already in high

school with being able to capitalize and find a way to build some momentum on the policy proposal that he feels very strongly about with respect to gun control. and i think with laura taking a week long vacation, of course it happens at a convenient time with it being easter, it's obviously inconvenient for her to lose sponsers. >> host: she said the network said t is a pre-planned vacation. take b nd both have week long vacations after -- under kind of like the bull's eye of either saying something ntroversial or doing something controversial or downright illegal in terms of bill o'reilly accused of multiple women of sexual harassment and shawn hannity. host: high school students with

a large high school media microphone have been a newer ice in these debates specifically the gun control debate. how well do you think the media has done in covering them and the movement that they have come to something represent? guest: some media outlets have given them a pass on many things. and what i mean by pass is they have not challenged them on their ideas. they kind of just use their platform as kind of open, generous platform for like the march for our lives, for example. they basically can speak their views to a friendly audience in which their challenges were not essentially -- raised or questions. that was problematic in terms of talking about something as contentious as gun control which a lot of americans feel strongly about. what is interesting is when lot is kind of presented a

of media outlets from right-leaning and conservative circles kind of went on a very aggressive campaign to rebuke hose agendas and pro gun control agenda and that kind of set the tone initially for why this conversation has kind of devolved into this mud-slinging fight. host: if you want to join in our conversation about politics and the media, republicans can all and democrats, the numbers are on your screen. independents. a ou want to follow, prolific twitter presence. one of your tweets from the past week talked about this issue of david hogg and brings in another aspect.

guest: in many ways he has become a media spectacle and in many ways you can argue that the attraction that he brings and the following he brings to any school undoubtedly gives that school a lot more media attention. probably will find some media vans parked outside many of these schools, whichever one he attends. i think some school administrators probably don't look on that favorably and in the same way that collin capper nick raised police perutality as a strong issue and tim tebow by being kind of an overt on the field, a lot of teams will probably say it's because of their abilities but some part of it has to do with

the fact that they bring so much media attention that it's a distraction for the team, for the culture or the campus in terms of david hogg. host: have you had a chance to interview him? guest: i have not. i have not even actually for the most part try to sit back and observe what is happening. when it comes to the high school students of parkland, i went to the march for our lives, i spoke to a number of individuals. i tried to speak to as many young people as i could. and trying to get their control.on gun i think their views happen to be a little bit more to the right of what a lot of these parkland survivors were preaching. i think -- host: the ones we see on television. guest: yeah. i think their views are a little more further to the left in terms of calling for specific or classified weapons bans whether automatic or semi

aut matic. that's essentially all guns except perhaps muskets and front-locked guns. many people don't want a repeal of the second amendment, they don't want a gun ban. they do want improved school safety. some call for improving -- modeling a lot of suburban and rule schools in the fashion of urban schools where they have a presence of security, metal detectors. and they -- those schools did to a way that they try prevent gang violence from impacting the school. >> bringing in some callers to this discussion. wiveragetsdz caller: i called most of the issues i've heard is based on

the agenda of the united states republic which was established on slavery. slavery was -- lasted for almost 200 years in this country. the problem that most people have in this country is that they don't read, number one. number two, we look at the social media of attacking certain people like kaepernick nd how the issue of racial disparity and police perutality has been going on ever since the beginning of this country based on the institution of slavery. so now when we don't address that, this country is so immoral when we talk about moral character in the world, it is a beacon to white supremacy. guest: i mean, in many ways the

united states louisiana to attone for the sins of its fathers and its ancestors, and in many ways i agree with the caller that we have to remember that we have to be better than what our ancestors were in terms of how they viewed the world, how they viewed other people, and i think when we talk about things like gun control there are going to be people impacted by this who view this as revication of their civil rights. host: the caller brings up the black lives matter movement. i woppeder your thoughts of the media coverage of the clark shooting and how it's being rtrayed this spring as opposed to the police shootings in recent years. is there something different you're seeing? guest: i'm seeing it as a little bit restraint. i think what happened in sacramento is tragic, it's

terrible, and there's no accountability on the part of the police. what we're seeing from the forensic evidence as well as the autopsy is that clark was shot 20 times, eight of those shots came from either the side or behind. they have not given a great justification why they shot him based on the fact that thought his they have not given cell phone was a handgun. he was in his backyard and even there was ve a gun no -- i don't think there was any -- again, i was not there so i can't fully comment on what actually happened, what took place, what these police officers were thinking but there are a lot of questions that need to be answered and i don't think the media is doing it enough to answer those questions. st: what does your job

entail? guest: the job entails oftentimes writing. i will have a few pieces out every day focusing on media intersection and politics, our culture, oftentimes i'll entail? guest: the job entails oftentimes writing. i will have a few make a video commentary, sometimes go in front of the camera not in the c-span setting but washington examiner setting. host: with us this morning as we talk about the intersection of media and politics and some big stories that we've been covering here on the "washington journal." howard's been waiting in florida. caller: good morning. happy easter to all. i was raised with god in my heart. in my ised with love heart. i was raised to believe in my heart. i was raised to believe in good

and to fight evil. and all of this gun control talk about how we need to stricter gun laws, how we need to ban assault rifles, how we need to do this and that. this is not the problem. the problem is the evil in the person's heart. this is what we've got to get to. and ever we took god discipline out of schools and homes, we opened up the door for satan to take over. this is plain and simple. why is nobody talking about this? why do nobody -- does nobody come on tv and speak of the moral fact that the problem is not the with some guns. because one day it's going to ome when the government is going to feel that they're powerful enough to take over the people. they're going to come door to door with automatic going to feel that they're powerful weapons. up howard bringing morality and whether it's being talked about enough in the media and what we're seeing. what's your view on that? guest: in many ways aagree, the

moral fabric of our society is kind of faltered, at least while i've been around. of course i can't speak to the areas in the past where we've gotten better. we have gotten better in many ways with civil rights, how we've tried to atone for our ancestors slavery and oppression of women. we've definitely gotten better. we still have a long way to go. what's interesting with respect to gun control, you know, evil is obviously a big proponent and someone wanting to the carry out violence in a particular way. so guns maybe we should have stricter gun laws in some respect but i don't think any of those will fully address preventing someone who has evil intentions of wanting to do harm to other people. so there are amounts of ways that someone could probably attain a particular weapon whether it be a gun, knife, sword, what have you. and yes evil is a big proponent that we have to focus on.

but you can't -- not everyone in this world is good and there's no way that you're going to -- you can only reduce the number of incidents of violence. you can't completely eliminate it, unfortunately. host: jim in florida. good morning. caller: good morning. the media is very important. it sets the narrative. there's an old saying with listening comes wisdom, speaking repetance. that's why the media is important. when they have something truthful to say. but with this hogg situation, i think his mother worked for -- not c-span -- cnn, i think his father was a left-wing f.b.i. agent. you tube is involved in censorship now on this, so is twitter. they're sense rg these gun challenge, trying to get any right-wing things off the air. your station has decidedly taken a left-wing position the way you broadcast the house

floor the last time. people have taken the left side of issues even your questions seem inoccuous but the insinuations are to support the left-wing position and be against the right. all i've got to say for c-span truthfully is et tu, c-span. thank you very much. host: you can read into it however you want, we just want to have a conversation and show you what happens on the floor of the house of representatives and of the senate. guest: to jim's point, i happen to lean more right on gun control. i happen to be very pro second eam and by inviting me on i think that's kind of a rebuke to jim's point because i happen to be very pro gun control in my younger days. however, since the pulse nightclub shooting in which democrats were calling for no fly gun proposal that was the water shed for me because

they're looking at proposals in which they want to look at government watch lists in where arbitrarily get on those government watch lists, in this case the no fly list, without a criminal conviction and ben arb prevented from purchasing a gun. so when i see how democrats propose gun control solutions, they seem to be very ash trir in nature -- ash trear in nature and i think it's mportant protecting the second amendment probably more important amendment probably more important than a lot of things that people seem to be focusing on. and just to the point, i think c-span by inviting me on has probably opened the conversation a little bit further considering the fact that i'm a muslim american who is very pro second amendment. host: jan wants to return to this story and the holiday laura ingram is taking amid this controversy.

guest: i think what people need to remember and this is just -- people need to have integrity when it comes to having policy debates. getting into mockery and person attacks doesn't do anyone any favors. you might get a few tweets or likes, but does that really satisfy you in the end? when you look back on your career and on your life, at the end of the day is that something you would be proud of? in laura's case i think she realized in some ways that in addition to her sponsors leaving in l her and it being h week, that probably was a good time for her to have that type of reflection. whether it was genuine or not that's really between her and

the creater. a dozen e than advertisers announcing that a d advertisers announcing that they have pulled commercials from her show. the "washington post" reporting that they include johnson and johnson, nestly, hullu, jenny craig, and others. to new york. good morning. caller: good morning. thanks for taking my call. gentlemen, it's really a pleasure to speak to you. politics is like an opinion. everybody has one. ok? we have different sizes that's why we have democrats, republicans, liberals, and whatever. but the bottom line is this. the youth of today are taking notice of what's going on. i'm 65 years old, but the youth today are seeing columbine, i forgot where the movie theater there was a shooting.

guest: aurora. caller: we've seen all of these things. along with the fact of guns being in the hands of the wrong people, whether they're law enforcement or not. that's the whole problem. and everybody ds white washing everything talking about we get fake news, the news is watered guest: down. this is just a world of chaos in which we live in today. i'm listening to christians, i'm a christian myself. i'm listening to all sorts of people. you yourself have just been attacked because of your last name but that's another story. people have to realize one thing. set the people that rules that put the things in order that is going to make a change and we need to be responsible people. what do you want to pick up on? guest: an interesting part that he made and probably discussed in the last hours, the importance of morality in our leaders. and it is important for our leaders to have high moral character considering the fact that shapes the world views.

and if the world views are directly affected by their low standards of morality, then that sets a dangerous precedent for the rest of the public concerning the fact that donald trump has been accused of many instances of sexual harassment, assault, rape, and extra marital affairs. -- and important that of course it doesn't entirely ipune one's character but after many, many instances we start to question the personal character. i think obviously we should continue to raise those questions whether it's a republican, democrat, independent. host: to what end? guest: i think you have to get them to be held accountable for their actions. i think if they have personally harmed individuals in the process, they need to attone for it, whether it be through apology, through financial through ion,

resignation. our public officials through resignation. our public officials should be held responsible for their actions. host: good morning. caller: hey, how are you doing? well, i've got three points to make about propaganda and the media. it just goes on and on and we've got no way of filtering out the propaganda. and propaganda can be stuff that's not put in the news. people are not reporting on it. here's one. when senator mcconnell came out with a year left in president obama's term and said we're going to let the voters decide who the next supreme court pick will be done by, that's not the way the constitution says. but nobody reported the fact hat he broke the constitution. number two, number two, the lies that the people have told to get in to department heads on the table

with the president. now we're seeing here comes their lies. but nobody reported on it. and when they did try to they were hollered down. here's the third biggest lie. media is media is liberal. they are fighting a battle against lies and propaganda from the right that is a continuous onslaught against the truth. host: before you go, who do you trust when it comes to where you get your news from? caller: well, believe it or not, i trust them all to a point. i filter through -- i'm retired. i have time to look at it all. you can tell. you just have to filter that out but they shouldn't be able to do that. why can't we just put an f.b.i. agent with the camera when they lie to the camera they're lying to the f.b.i. agent and put

them in jail until they stop lying. guest: i mean, in a way to david's point everyone does lie to an extent. think it's good that he gets his news from a number of different sources. you know, it is interesting though that the battle right now in the media fighting between fake news, false reporting, you know, this is kind of an old story that's just kind of picked up steam because there are objective journalists who only focus on one part of the story and there are commentary people on me who also focus on another side of the story. i think it's important on the part of reader to try to do their due diligence in finding every aspect and every angle of the story so they can be the most informed person they can be. so yes i think it's important to not distrust one outlet but to try to trust multiple and if you have a particular reporter or journalist in mind that you

think does a good job you hould follow them and think of hem as them as someone who i guess speaks truth to power. host: about two minutes left in this segment. roger, in kentucky. go ahead. caller: thanks for the opportunity and happy easter. you've got politics and media. i guess they do the best they can and politics is always going to be politics. who is right and who is wrong. it's not against the law to lie to each other but if you lie to a policeman or to any official, you could be arrested. so i figure donald trump or whoever is in there if they lie they should have consequences. also i'll leave it at this. all the schools, i've said i'm 64, they should have a common

sense class and a class to learn respect. as far as gun control i'll leave it like this. put a gun in a mentally ill person or his news a -- something bad is going to happen. it's not the gun. thank you. you have a glorious day. guest: i don't know if the president should face consequences for lying outside of the electoral frame unless he lies to obviously the f.b.i. or he lies under oath. you know, what's interesting about this whole issue of lying is that we have no control over what a politician does. they have to be held accountable by their voters. if we lose confidence in an elected official they should be voted out. it's how our democracy has worked. and with respect to gun

control, you know, everybody does focus on it's not the gun it's the person. or it's the gun and it's not the person. it's a little bit of both. we should probably put in the framework to try to protect people as best we can. but schools are the softest target and we have to improve safety there first. host: we'll have to the end it there. if you want to follow him on twitter. appreciate the time. come back again. we take you back to april 4, 1968 when walter cronkite

informed the nation that mart inluther king, jr., had been shot and killed in memphis, has been shot. officers also reportedly chased and fired on a radio equipped car containing two white men. dr. king was standing on the

balcony when, according to a companion, a shot was fired from across the street. in the friend's words, the bullet exploded in his face. police, who have been keeping a close watch over the noble prize peace winner because of turbulent situation were on the scene almost immediately. they rushed the 39-year-old leader to a hospital where he died of a bullet wound in the neck. police said they found a high-powered rifle about a block from the hotel but not immediately identified as the murder weapon. the mayor has reinstated the dusk to dawn curfew when a march led erupted in violence. the governor has called out 4 nourks national guardsmen and police report that the murder has touched off sporadic acts of violence. president johnson expressed the nation's shock. >> america is shocked and saddened by the brutal slaying

tonight of dr. martin luther king. i ask every citizen to reject the blind violence that has ruck dr. king who lived by nonviolence. i pray that his family can find comfort in the memory of all he tried to do for the land he loved so well. i have just conveyed sympathy of, as johnson myself to his widow mrs. king. i know that every american of good will joins me in mourning the death of this outstanding leader and in praying for peace and understanding throughout this land. we can achieve nothing by wlessness and deviciveness

among the american people. it's only by joining together and only by working together can we continue to move toward equality and fulfillment for all of our people. i hope that all americans their will search hearts as they ponder this most tragic incident. >> king was born in atlanta, january 15, 1929. he was the son and grandson of prominent negro ministers in atlanta and he had an extended education. he graduated finally with a docket rat from boston university in 1954 and got his first past rat in birmingham, alabama. it was there he was in montgomery alabama. it was there he was to win fame because in december 1955 he

took leadership of a bus boycott there and he -- and his policy of nonviolence over a period of year won that strike with a federal desegregation order in alabama. his nonviolent campaign spread through the south and he became the leader of the southern christian leadership conference, a conference primarily of negro ministers. since the rise of radical negros such as carmichael and rap brown, king had been considered a voice of moderation and white leaders had looked to his policy of nonviolence as a hopeful antidote to those who preached riot and hatred. host: we're looking back to 1968 america in turmoil on c-span and c-span 3's american history tv. from walter cronkike on the death of martin luther king, jr. occurring 50 years ago this week. we're going to be talking about it this morning.

certainly that from walter cronkike on the death of martin luther topic and others as we cover civil rights and race relations from 196. we're joined for that discussion this morning by kathleen cleaver senior lecturer as well as a former communications secretary for the black panther party. and from austin, texas, we welcome the director for the study of race and democracy. take us back to the end of 1967 and where the civil rights movement was in 1968 was dawning. this was 13 years since the brown v. board of education decision had been handed down. what was the state of the movement? guest: i think the state of the movement was very strong but it was also -- there was a lot of debate and there was a lot of controversy. in a way when we think about the civil rights movement and dr. martin luther king, jr. as the significant iconic figure, king is really a political mobilizer and there are a number of different movements.

so there are movements within the movement. so by 1967, we're seeing black power activists who are talking about community control all across the united states. they're talking about radical social political cultural self-determination. we've got groups like the community iolent which professor cleaver was a part of talking about anti-war activism. we've got the national welfare rights organization that is talking about which professor eaver was a part of that way,s talking about poor poverty. in people's campaign and an anti-poverty campaign at the same time you've got young black political radicals talking about everything from educational activism and the creation of black student unions, to anti-imperialist strategies and anti-capitalist

critiques. certainly the black panthers and the black panther party for self-defense really understands what's happening at the local level in a place like oakland, california, and really in an era before black lives matter they are talking about everything from community control and free breakfast programs but also they're questioning the legitimacy of state-sanctioned violence, the incarceration, the high rates of incarceration then in 1967-68 of black men and women. they're questioning police brutality at the local level. and they're really looking at poverty. because one of the first things the panthers do in oakland, california, is try to get a street light set up at a corner where african americans have in hit by cars in oakland the east bay. so when we think about 67, the movement is a movement of

movements. it's a pan ramic movement that sometimes people will say dr. king goes north because he goes to chicago. but there was always a movement happening in chicago and new york and outside of the south. at times the media focused on the old conif he had rassy because we had the police dogs in birmingham, alabama. we had civil rights activists rdered in mississippi in 1964. protesters beaten on the beach of st. augustine, florida in the summer of 1964. but in truth, political activism during the civil rights protesters beaten on the beach movement period from 54 to roughly 68 was happening in really virtually every major city but also rural, urban hamlets across the united states. so by 67, what we see is that the movement has lost in the minds of the american public some of the cohesiveness that we have seen when the movement rights g for the voting

act and the civil rights act in the aftermath of brown and emit till and the bus boycott. but the movement is going for more than just civil rights or voting rights. it's trying to transform merican democracy and really reimagine black citizenship by calling for an end to not just racial and economic oppression but it's reimagine black citizenship by like a living wage, the right for black women and men to have good jobs, decent homes, and schools that actually educate people. host: on that, kathleen cleaver, you were in your early 20s at this point at the end of 1967. you were involved in the civil rights movement. what people. host: on did you see as the big barriers yet to be overcome as 1968 dawned? guest: we were in the movement -- i was in the student nonviolent coordinating committee where the call for black power came. what we saw as the biggest

challenge is political empowerment of people being subjected to racism and poverty, particularly police violence. so the issues of self-defense, mmunity control of police, social justice, it was a range issues. but the key focus of the movements i was in was against police brutality and against violence directed towards black. host: i want to go over some of the key dates and issues in the year 196 as we discuss civil rights and race relations. we're going to be talking about the vietnam war and its impact on civil rights in this country. the offensive begins on january 30, 1968. february 12 the memphis sanitation strike begins. february 29 the kerner commission releases its report. april 4 martin luther king, jr. was assassinated.

the days after, rioting in chicago, baltimore, washington, d.c., and other cities. on april 11, president johnson signs the fair housing act. on june 4, 5, 6, robert kennedy wins the california primary. he's shot after his victory rally. he died the next day on the 6th. image of the athletes protesting at the olympic games. november 5, richard nixon elected president. we'll talk about the impact his presidency had on the movement in 68. we're going to be talking about all of that this morning on our 1968 america in turmoil series. special phone lines this morning.

we produced you as well as your position as -- introduced you. how did you get involved in the black panther party? guest: i was in an organization. we had a conference, invited quite a few civil rights leaders but the only one who managed to get there was elled ridge cleaver, to make a long story short, he fell madly in love and persuaded me that i should come out to california, which i did. and got engaged, married and i got involved in the organization he was involved with called the black panther party which was very much in line with the thinking and planning but we were an organization that had started many years ago and was in sort of chaos and the black panther party was brand new. and it was very exciting and engaging and filled with very

positive energized young men and women. so it was great. host: you talked about the organization of the civil rights movement at the time, the different organizations that were out there. how did white america view these different organizations that we've already talked about as well as dr. king's movement? >> well, by 196 there's going to be what some people call a white backlash against the movement. this is this the idea that there was that one time real broad based support for civil rights struggles and racial equality. so generally white people when we look at everything from polling data and the state of the nation at the time were increasingly at unease with this idea of civil rights. by the time we see urban rebelions what critics call race riots and what the president -- the kerner

commission calls civil disorders, that start in 1963 in birmingham, alabama, by 1964 harlem explodes. in 65 the watt neighborhood in los angeles explodes. and we see massive urban rebelions in newark and detroit in 1967. so between 63 and 6 we're going to have hundreds of civil disturbances in hundreds of american cities. and what the kerner commission argued -- and that's the president's own commission -- is that the root of the violence and the rioting is going to be poverty and institutional racism. it says that white racism has created and maintained urban ghettos and it's only white society that can get rid of these ghettoings in that sense. so there's going to be

increasing unease and there's increasing unease about the level of radical rhetoric that black power activists are engaged in. because what black power activists do in contrast to civil rights activists, they really talk about structural oppression. they link the war in vietnam with the ineffectiveness of the war on poverty in great society programs. they link police brutality with the mizz ration and imporishment of african americans in rural and urban areas. so they're talking about race class and really by 1968 gender as well when we think about radical black feminists including feminist whose are connected through snik who become part of the black women's alliance and then the one. when we think about how the

perceiving is civil rights it's going to be for the most part negative and it's interesting to remember that martin luther king, jr., by 1968, is not the same mainstream hero he is by the end of 1964 when he accepts the noble peace perceiving civil rights it's going to be for the most part negative and it's prize. by 1968, king is touring the country like a man on fire, critiquing the johnson administration about the vietnam war, trying to galvanize broad-based support for multiracial poor people's campaign, planning to go to washington and stay in washington until congress passes meaningful poverty legislation, antport legislation that dr. king defines as a guaranteed income for all americans. we've got congress -- congress person whose had praised king who are saying that he is an anarkist, saying he is a socialist and un-american. so when we think about 1968 there's a feeling of doom as if

taken ersives have over. what's taken over. what's interesting, one of the things that dr. king says, he arts to feel that even white liberals are abandoning the movement because so many white americans are embracing this notion of peace and law and order with no justice. so when we think about 196 it's going to be an incredibly tense year but it's also a hopeful year and an optimistic year because so many not only civil rights activists but black power activists are trying to talk about the politics of transformation at the grassroots level. when you think about those talking about everything from community control of urban schools to talking about building farm cooperatives in the rural south. they're definitely talking about black elected officials but they're also talking about welfare rights talking about activism. talking about the relationship

between african americans and africa and u.s. foreign policy. they're critiquing capitalism and saying it's just the right economic system for poor black people. and they're really trying to reimagine what citizenship will look like in the future. so it's an incredibly hopeful time as well. host: we mentioned one of those activists already elled ridge cleaver. who is hughie activism. >> a law student in newton? oak california, who started an organization along with his friend bobby seal. he and bobby had met at college and they created an org is, they outlined the platform, they gave it a name, and they were just two men. but they had a vision of what change should be like and once they stafert they started it in oakland. people flocked in and it got a lot of attention very, very quickly. host: what was that organization? guest: black panther party for self-defense. host: here they are speaking about the black panther party

in 196. are america, black people treated very much as the vietnamese people or any other colonized people. used brutalized the police in our community are occupy our ar and our community as a foreign troops occupies territory. the police are in our community not to promote our welfare or or security and our safety, but they're there to contain us, to brutalize and murder us because they have their orders to do so. just as the soldiers in vietnam have their orders to destroy the vietnamese people, the police in our community couldn't possibly be there to protect our property because we own no property. they couldn't possibly be there to see that we receive the due process of law for the simple reason that the police themselves deny us the due process of law.

so it's very apparent that the police are only in our mmunity not for our security but for the security of the business owners and the community and also to see that the but for the status quo is kept . >> people aren't hip to the idea. they know some submit is going on but a lot of people out there don't no where it's at. they think it's the black people doing it. all those riots are caused by in all be miserable areas you know but they haven't focused in on the fact that it's the pigs and their mentors, the people who control the pigs, the power structure. those bald-headed businessmen at in all areas they're not turned on to that power tructtur. the chamber of they just -- they just know that life is becoming increasingly miserable for everybody. host: tell us about the early days of being involved in the black panther party. guest: it was very exciting because it was a new organization, in the middle of

the vietnam war, young people locked into the black panther party a large number of college students from san francisco state and it was so positive, full of stic, so energy, the organization which was at the point of breakdown and burnout after eight years of confronting racism and demonstrations and they were losing money, and the black made but by the time they that articulation the organization was pretty much gone. the black panther party took that and ran with it and spread all across the country the concept of black power. host: did the black power party endorse violence? guest: was initially called for self-defense. the violence was all around us. black people were being shot in the streets. poverty was rampant. the violence against us. we were not a violent organization we were trying to

challenge and defend our communities against the existing violence. host: can you talk a bit about the tactics of the black panther party? guest: i would say that the to be are going multiple, there are going to be multiple strategies. the initial name is black panther party for self-defense. when we think about the ten-point program or really a 20-point program that they outlined in 66 and update by to ltiple, there are going to be 68, what we want and what we need, they talk about everything from ending police brutality to freing black women and men who are in state and local and federal prisons. to having employment, good jobs, good schools, education, point ten talked about land, peace, bread and justice. so on one level the tactic was elf-defense and legally arming

themselves at least by the fall of themselves at least by the fall of 1966, before the state of california passes anti--- or passes gun control themselves at least by the fall of 1966, before the state of california passes anti--- or passes gun control legislation that is really anti panther legislation by the spring of 1967 which is one of the reasons why on may 2, 1967, go to sacramento protest this gun control bill which was to prevent panthers from patrolling the police armed, which was legal in the state of california at the time. so on one level we've got this martial military image of the panthers with berets and leather jackets and rifles. there's an iconic picture of professor cleaver in that mode. another strategy was really this strategy of community empowerment and the strategy of anti-poverty and survival programs, what they later called survival programs. this was this idea of survival

pending revolution. so wheng we think about the panthers we think of not just free breakfast programs and free lunch programs but food give aways, legal aid. there's a great book looking at the black panthers and the medical clinics that they did. when we think about the panthers they also anticipated the rise of mass incarceration so they had free busing to prison programs. you know, they had an ambulance service. they had tennis rights organizations, legal aids. they were also interested in drug rehabilitation. they were interested in food justice. when we think about the environment the panthers talk about capitalism plus dope genocide one of the iconic pamphlets of the party. so in a way there's a dual strategy. the group as a base one level they're talking about defending the black community. there's going to be strains of

the group that talk about proactive revolutionary activities. but then there's another aspect of the group that really at mes attracts much less attention but that attention but that has been very, very substantive and that's the strategy of empowering impoverished people mentally physically spiritually and also providing them critical thinking skills to understand what's going on. because that clip you played of hughie newton and elled ridge is really profound and powerful because you're watching two different political activist whose are also intellectuals and theorists. and what they're doing is theorizing about the structure and the nature of political and racial and economic oppression in the united states. and 50 years later when we think about the movement for black lives matters, that's completely connected in trying panthers n what the

realized when we think about panthers which realized when we think about the way in which the state was institutionalizing the refregs of african americans. 2.3 million people in prison ight but like professor said they were also talking about economic violence. the reason why they start the free breakfast program is because so many black people and black children were impoverished and those free breakfast programs become something that are widespread and that gets institutionalized in cityings like milwaukee, and states like wisconsin and at the federal level as well.

host: we're looking back 50 years to 68, what we want and 1968. the civil rights and race relations in this country. .oining us on the phone james caller: good morning to everybody. i just wanted to hope everybody has a happy passover and whatever else they have to celebrate the death and birth of jesus christ. i was 14 years old back in 68. and i lived both sides of the streets. i lived in mississippi and chicago, and i could tell the difference between night and day in some places. in some ways. but my main point was in 1968 when dr. martin luther king was assassinated i was in chicago and i was -- i saw the riots, i

saw the burning of buildings, i saw things going on. one thing about it my mother would not allow me to bring in anything our apartment that was stolen. she refused to let us do that. but my main point is this. that , and going back far, a lot has changed but there's a lot that has not changed in the sense of when you say in 2018 you're going to make this country great again, and you're going to -- what do you have to lose? lack folks, african americans, well, i don't think that great has always been and would always be great no

matter what. but the thing is you've got to make america right again. because the civil rights marches and white, blacks, and everybody back doing that time, it was not the government that and would always be great no matter what. but the thing is you've got to make exposed the wrong in this country. it was people getting out and marching. host: thanks for the call from mississippi. i'll let you take up some of the issues he brings up there. guest: he's talking about how people felt about what was happening and i think the context -- we're not talking about the war in vietnam. but everything that was happening in particularly in the civil rights and the black power movement was generated and amplified and in some sense kicked off by the impact of the vietnam war. the impact of the draft and the sense of young men that they were going to get killed or die some attitude was well why ould i go to vietnam and die in the rice patty why don't i stay home and fight for black freedom. so the intensity of the black

power and the civil rights energy in america was amplified over and over again by the activities of the vietnam war and by the young high school men being taken out of school and being shipped to vietnam or deciding they will not go or whatever, so there was a lot of turmoil involving war, racism, and the future of what the country would eat. this is when our leaders like bobby kennedy got murdered soon as they got elected, it was a traumatizing time. host: professor joseph, i will let you take angela in ohio on the line between 30 years old and 60 years old. caller: good morning. happy easter to everybody in whatever way you celebrate today. when they decided to kill off all the civil rights leaders, with the kennedys, martin luther this underhey slept

the rug and said, [indiscernible] and then they started locking us up in droves. it did not matter -- if you were black, you would get locked up. street, youed the would get locked up. you were the enemy against them. are shootingce people. they don't care. i never thought i would live to see anything like this in my lifetime. when my grandmother told me she never thought she would live to see a black man in the white house, she did not live to see it, so i live my grandmother's dream. and then look at the shambles our nation is in. nobody could have ever predicted this. host: angela this morning. professor joseph, what do you want to pick up on from that? guest: i think when you talk

occurring,he death despite the assassinations, and we can go as far back as 53 with the kennedy -- 1953 with the and thosesassination, assassinations certainly had a important, but it is to remember that the protests and demonstrations continue to proliferate in spite of those assassinations. in a way, what we important to remember that see is political assassinations rob social movements of narratives that are formed around, especially in the 1960's predominantly male figures, but it doesn't mean the movement goes away. after 1968, you will see more protests against the vietnam war them before it.

after 1968, we see protests for community control, women's rights, chicano activism, antiwar activism, black power activism, all the way into the mid-1970's when we think of those assassinations, we remember them as important pivot points but it is important to recall social movements do not and because we had this big political mobilizer or icons who are assassinated. whether a leader or representative is a spokes person that is, woman or man, they are representing political at the localzing level, so there is no dr. martin luther king jr. about joanne robinson, the woman's political counsel, or rosa parks, people who are day-to-day organizers.

what he is doing as an articulated is galvanize attention for what people are doing at the local level. even though but movement moves when people are assassinated, there is not necessarily that figure point that can bring media attention, but movements continue. host: kathleen cleaver, the kennedy in 1968 when he entered the race. what did he mean to the civil rights movement in 1968? guest: i am not so certain the civil rights movement in 1968, at least the wing i am in, which is the black power movement, which is a different energy than civil rights, where we were committed to radical social justice and economic change. bobby kennedy articulated as a mainstream politician. some of the interest that the

social justice movement had, which is more than likely he did not even get a chance to get out the gate. he was murdered as soon as he was making his speech. so the right-wing repression that was coming, they made it clear the politics of robert kennedy, social justice, antiwar, were being repudiated. and that kind of set the tone for a very radical uprising across the country. host: we set the tone for this discussion with that news report of the death of martin luther king jr. 50 years ago this week. describe your memory of learning about the death of martin luther king jr.. remember, i was in oakland at the time. i was living in california. the black panther party headquarters was in oakland. i remember how stunned and angry

black people around the country were. washington, d.c. was set on fire. there were tons of uprisings, riots, protests, the country seemed to be in a state of chaos. what was intriguing is that clearly there was an instruction to the police and cities to stand down because police were not confronting these uprisings. you saw a huge explosion of anger, frustration, and violence in the wake of the assassination of martin luther king. host: professor joseph, why was martin luther king jr. in memphis on that day in 1968? guest: he was in memphis because he had been called by one of his good jim lawson, reverend jim lawson, who was helping to organize sanitation workers in memphis, tennessee, on strike for a living wage.

so king starts going there in march and giving speeches. one time during a visit, one of the demonstrations turned violent. not because of demonstrators who were part of the organized civil rights activism, but because of outliers, young people in the city who were frustrated. a smashed windows, and king returned to memphis to have a rally that is peaceful because people are very critical, saying that if you cannot lead a peaceful rally in memphis, how can he come to washington, d.c., and do this camp in intensity? -- in tent city? king get is convinced that one, the vietnam war is an immoral and illegal war that robbed resources from poor people and

attention from the plight of the poor, so he goes to places like andissippi, the southwest meets up with mexican american activists, farmworkers, poor whites, as well, and he is going to have a whole caravan of a multiracial caravan that will come to d.c. in the summer for this poor people's campaign. i 1968, he is talking about guaranteed income. there were many americans across political lines talking about a guaranteed income on the way to fight and end poverty and joblessness once and for all. some people talked about employment and the works progress administration that went beyond the new deal, but when king goes to memphis, he uses it as the first beachhead in this larger battle for social

justice. and by 1968, he is going to be vilified for talking about poor people, a guaranteed income, and for saying that he is going to bring this nonviolent army to washington, d.c., even though king is always, always articulating a philosophy of nonviolence, journalists and politicians are going to criticize him and say he is trying to bring violence to washington, d.c., went obvious trying to do is force the united states into a reckoning with the gap between democratic rhetoric and reality, especially for poor people. but for people of all colors. he is interested in racial justice and economic justice but

he sees the connection between race and class. host: nearly halfway through our discussion on this week's installment of america in turmoil, about the civil rights movement and race relations. we split our phone line up differently this morning. if you are 29 and under, it is (202)-748-8000. years old to 60 years old, (202)-748-8001. if you are 61 years and older, (202)-748-8002. nicholas has been waiting in nashville, tennessee, on the line or 29 and under. caller: good morning. i am glad to come across this conversation today. i want to ask about the speakers thoughts on the leadership organization and structure of today in the black revolution because often times, they talk about the focal points that it was the heart and soul of those

movements, and every action, but the reality is they were not. i am curious on what you think about how the revolution looks today and the organized structure and is there anything you want to highlight from your experiences from your life for people who are under 29 and for that next generation, what would you like us to learn or pay more attention to? host: kathleen cleaver, i will let you start. guest: what is important to understand is they were mass organizations of people in the united states triggered in large part by the dislocations of the war in vietnam but the sense of hope, also, that it would change and that king and people like him or articulating a different vision for america and they were masses and masses of people who believed america could change. i remember being with radical revolutionary activist, who were

mostly 25 or younger, down to teenagers, who really consent this is a moment where we could change the country. we talked about changing the world, so there was optimism, america was a wealthy place with resources, and the vietnam war dislocated the whole country and challenged and made it possible for people to think of revolutionary transformation, whether peaceful or violence, and the country. host: dr. joseph? guest: certainly. of8 really is a global year political revolution. when we think of domestically in 1968, 1 of the slogans is going to be a hold world is watching when young activist are being brutalized at the democratic national convention in chicago. what they mean by the whole world is watching, they mean the whole world was watching what

american democracy meant for people protesting for social cavern and the huge between democratic rhetoric and reality when it came to reimagining american sedition ship. globally, -- american citizenship. globally, we are thinking about czech slovakia, made a demonstrations across europe -- may day demonstrations across europe, latin america, south america, africa, anti-colonial struggles, students who are striking throughout the world, so 1968 is this feeling of political revolution and optimism, and also cultural revolution. the question was about leadership today. i think leadership today in terms of contemporary movements, and we see this with black lives matter and the me too movement, the recent youth march, and also

with the dreamers and immigration and daca movements. leadership is structured in a much more cohesive and democratic way. founder famously says strong people do not need strong leaders, and what she means by this, and she was a radical feminist, trade unionists, worked with dr. king, men toward stokely carmichael, the young activist of the student nonviolent coordinating committee, and she met people themselves were going to have to organize for their own justice and rights. when we think about now with the social movements that are happening in the contemporary context, the huge positive is, one, many are female lead, and they we think of the 1960's, women were leaders but a lot of times, marginalized when we think of public transcript of

the 1960's. now we see women, such as the cofounders of black lives matter , who are out there in a public in brilliance way, and these movements are not relying on one figurehead or iconic leader, and that makes them much more powerful and more effective and long-lasting. host: let me let kathleen cleaver jump in. do you agree with his assessment on how women leaders of the black power movement were remembered and part of the story? guest: at that era, the concept of women leadership was somewhat subdued. there was no question the civil rights movement was woman led and woman directed -- i am thinking gloria richardson, ella baker, but the willingness of the media and black community to

enhance the role of man, so women were not seeking recognition as much as participation, and it was fundamental and essential. host: what was the role of the communication secretary? how did you get that job? guest: i came to the black panther party from the organization called snicc, and we were planning a demonstration at the alameda county courthouse, went she removed was arrested and shot and charged with attempted murder and murder and he was coming to court and we were going to have a demonstration. my first thing to do was write a press release announcing the demonstration. i had just come into the black panther party recently, so the press release had to go out and i had to identify who said it. secretarymmunications of the black panther party, kathleen cleaver. host: you gave yourself the title? guest: yes.

julian vaughn was the communication director of snicc, and i modeled myself on julian i called myself secretary because there was also a minister of information, a chairman, so that was my title and i took it myself. host: dallas, texas, charles between 30 and 60. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you. it is an honor to speak with one of the mothers of the movements, as well as the distinguished professor of texas. street fromp the you in dallas but i grew up in sacramento, california, where the latest example of heart break and police violence has happened. i want to say how amazing the panthers in dr. king were able to describe america as this immaculate rolls-royce with a knocked off engine. it looked good but socially, there was a limit. guest: i think it is brilliant.

i have never heard that before. there is a huge difference in between what people experience and desire and what is actually happening in this country. i believe in the 1960's, what we saw was a waking up among black people, latino people, exploited people of what was being done to them, and looking at how we can take this on and because of vietnam. it was something said malcolm x said that resonated, little yellow men in black jobless are taking down uncle sam. it was like small people, poor people can make a difference in the world, and that was radicalizing across the country. bringprofessor joseph, this back to 50 years ago this weekend and the death of martin luther king jr., who was james arnold ray and what was his -- james earl rate and what was his motive in the assassination? guest: he is the assassin of

martin luther king jr. and his juste by all reports was racial hatred and unease with what king represented in the world, in the sense of the social land political change and transformation that dr. king was trying to achieve. guest: i would like to say something. i don't think the king family accepted and the king's british attorney accepted that he was the shooter. holding aim as position to cover up who actually killed king. host: covering up for who? guest: the people who organized the assassination. that he was a front but not the killer. host: what do you believe? guest: i believe that. i don't think one man will take down martin luther king. it had to the a form of conspiracy and probably one more than one shooter. host: what do you think, dr.

joseph? guest: as the historian, i go historical record, but i acknowledge that there have been doubts. they are raised by different orders, including the king family posthumously, questioning the way in which evidence was gathered, questioning whether james earl rate in fact murder -- ray in fact murdered their father. when we think of historical records, i go with historical record that james earl ray is the shooter until and unless we are presented with rocksolid evidence that shows something different. guest: i guess you understand that the rocksolid evidence is seriously being covered up. guest: you know, i understand that people are saying that and i would love to see and hear more. i have read those perspectives, definitely. host: i want to go back to that

night 50 years ago on april 4. this is the ideal of robert kennedy announcing the death of martin luther king jr. at an impromptu speech in indianapolis. here is what he had to say. [video clip] ay,in this difficult d and this difficult time for the united states, people ask what kind of a nation we are and what direction we want to move in? for those of you who are black, considering the evidence evidently is that there were white people responsible, you can be filled with bitterness and with hatred, and a desire for revenge. we can move in that direction as a country and greater polarization, black people amongst blacks, and white

amongst whites, filled with hatred toward one another. or we can make an effort, as martin luther king did, to understand and to comprehend and replace that violence, that stain of bloodshed that has spread across our land, with an compassionnderstand and love. for those of you who are black, and are tempted to be filled of thetred and mistrust injustice of such an act, against all white people, i would only say that i can also feel in my own heart this and .ind of feeling i had a member of my family

killed and he was killed by a white man. we have to make an effort in the united states. we have to make an effort to understand, to get beyond her go beyond these difficult times. host: professor joseph, take us back to the hours and days after the death of martin luther king jr. from that speech, the writing and the burning of cities we saw around the country. and burning of cities we saw around the country. guest: bobby kennedy's words ironic because his brother had approved the wiretaps that hoover put on dr. king, and that againstd the fbi's war dr. king, and in a lot of ways, it led to that and taking that in part led to his death and it was really interesting bobby kennedy's evolution.

these days are tumultuous days. and kennedy says these difficult times, and king on april 3 of the night before he is assassinated had said that we have some difficult days ahead of us. what he was talking about was the way in which there was a lf in which activists and leaders felt they needed to do, and what the country was willing to do. the country responds, the state responds with more political and 1968,ic oppression and in we have to remember that the omnibus crime bill is passed a couple months after king died, and that crime bill really expands wiretapping and eavesdropping that the federal government is allowed to do but also provides the state with billions of dollars in money for law enforcement that forced mass

incarceration and now provides many given to states through the byrne grant and all the states and local municipalities that huge incentives to incarcerate african-americans and latinos and poor whites. host: kathleen cleaver, take us back to where you were that night in the days after and your actions. guest: i was in california during eldridge and i lived in san francisco and once king was killed, whence his death became public knowledge, it was an explosion across the country with riots, rebellions, washington, d.c., and the police were standing down. and so the black panther party wanted to respond, but they did not believe people should go out and ride it in the streets

--riot in the streets, so a group of panthers engaged in actions in response to king's assassination. is group i am talking about the group that was essentially going to attack police in response but what ended up happening was the group got scattered and a small contingent ended up in a house in oakland and were shooting back and forth with the oakland police, and bobby hutton and eldridge were in the same house, and that house began to catch on fire. they said, well, we don't want to burn to death, so bobby attempted tout and surrender and was shot. no one other than bobby hutton was killed that night. about eight other panthers were arrested and it became a huge case. the whole country was at war.

host: what happened to eldridge cleaver? guest: he was arrested, sent back to prison. he was an ex-convict and able to get out on bail through unusual decisions by a judge because when he went to court, no one from the state appeared. it was only a bridge and the judge. and he said, based on the evidence i heard, i have to take his story, which was not heard shootera black panther engaged with police was out on bail and the candidate for president under a protest party, so what he did was run his presidential campaign across the country until it was time for him to return to police and prison, at which point he disappeared. he showed up a few months later in havana. host: were you with them? guest: oh, no. i did not know where he was. he was off to montreal, but i

did not know. host: when did you read correct -- when did you reconnect question mark guest: in algeria --? guest: in on syria in 1969. i was on my way to figure out to have to get to cuba and i had to go in a roundabout way. the way to get there was to take a flight in algeria to cuba. i actually got there and then i got a message, do not leave your retweets, aldrich -- eldridge is coming. host: did you want to add something? guest: yes, when we think about the immediate aftermath of dr. king's assassination, his funeral in atlanta is going to be seen by over 100 million americans. muleoffin is carried by a train in atlanta. every major residential candidate attends king's funeral, so eugene mccarthy,

bobby kennedy, hubert humphrey, richard nixon, president lyndon johnson because of security concerns is not attend, but king accorded the equivalent of a state funeral, and when we think about what is going on on college campuses, black communities, there is a huge sense of mourning. at times, a sense of rage and over 25 cities bereft in violence, but there is also a sense of organizing that takes place. when we think of the king assassination, and becomes a global event and there will be sympathy demonstrations around the world, europe, africa, latin america, sending telegrams to the king family and united states in solidarity with king's --ory, so he is really going the country is going to be

reeling in the aftermath of his death. for a time, bobby kennedy, who anthe start of what becomes 82 day campaign for president, until he is assassinated on june 5, like andy young, one of king's lieutenants, mayonnaise and has said, many people start to transfer some of the feeling they had -- not necessarily the black power activist, but mainstream african-american, some of the feeling and loyalty they have towards king and robert f kennedy, as he can bindow find the wounds -- the wounds that are gripping the nation. we think about bobby kennedy and the final thought is kennedy in 1968 tried to do it barack obama doesn't two thousand eight, which is create a multiracial and multi-class coalition to win the presidency of the united states.

host: about 30 minutes left in our discussion, taking your calls on phone lines split up by age. 29 inventor, (202)-748-8000 -- 29 and under (202)-748-8000. 30 to 60 years old, (202)-748-8001. 60 and older (202)-748-8002. nicolas calling from scotland on the line for those 61 and older. caller: good morning. , of course, at my age, and having been raised in detroit, i was 15 at the time of the detroit riots and i was 16 when dr. king was assassinated. what i wanted to say, it struck me while i was watching your program this morning that mr. academic for the center of the study of race and democracy, and after 50 years of all that has gone on, it is

ironic that they had the time to set up a center for the study of race and democracy. i think it is time to come off the ivory tower, dr. joseph. host: nicholas in scotland, professor joseph? guest: sure. nicholas, i would say that we do more than just study. we do public research and history and policy programming that connects to race and democracy, civil rights inequality, voting rights, mass incarceration. to tackle these issues, we have to do both, right? so when you think about -- i would not say it is just an ivory tower, when you think of how do we leverage resources of these wonderful universities that we have in the united states to try and transform not just critical consciousness, but public policies and leverage

those resources on behalf of communities that would not have access to the kind of brainpower and resources that we have met universities, and universities have been when thinking of issues of social justice, important in terms of legal transformations, in terms of public policy transformations, providing nonprofits and other grassroots organizations, the information and the research and the agency that they made on social and political justice. it is not just the center at ut, but the idea of black studies coming out of the black power era and coming out in the theory we talk about this morning is how do we leverage the intelligence he and and the resources, not just humanity and social sciences but hard

science, medicine, stanfield rate how do we leverage that on behalf of people marginalized? universities play a role. like professor cleaver was saying, many people were attracted to groups like like panthers, and including herself, some were university students. some of the biggest activist to college classes, where graduates, or high school graduates, who shut cities down. when we think of parkland, young people in parkland are connected to the movements we are talking about because high school students in the south, north and west coast waged all kinds of struggles, including latino high school students, not just to get educational equality but equal opportunity and equality outcomes where they are surrounded in their communities. host: a lot of calls waiting. kathleen cleaver, michael in florida on the line for those

between 30 years old and 60 years old. caller: good morning. repressive cleaver, it is an honor to see you. i saw a special on black women involved in the movement and i know you are part of that back then. they pointed out that the women who involved took great care in making sure that the men were out front. the women knew they were a part of it, but they knew the important thing about the black man being out front. professor joseph, i will say to -- what youwant have mentioned several times this morning about the importance of black women participating in the new movement -- black women have always been in the movement. be very careful about this new emphasis on women being involved in the new movement because it is a wedge issue designed to pick black men against black women.

i am 58 years old. 58 years old.d -- my mother was based on black women and raise children and went to high school. host: kathleen cleaver? guest: a response? host: go for it. guest: i'm happy to hear you acknowledge that and to see the backbone of the movements for black justice, black freedom, and antislavery have been women for several reasons, one of which is that the attention on oppressing men was so vicious that it was almost necessary for women. the other is that women took on this responsibility and women leadership has been a feature of the struggle against slavery, segregation, racism, and part of that i think is because of the role of churches in the past. not so much now. churches are gathering place for women who are activists, who are supporting leadership and

essentially running the churches. the base of political activism and black communities frequently is women organizations and leaders. host: from virginia, max on the line for those 29 inventor. go ahead. caller: thank you. i wanted to say this is a great conversation and i wanted to thank you for hosting it. when the professor mentioned dr. words onter antipoverty and antiwar, it seems dr. king's legacy has been manipulated in the time since 1968 and the later aspects of the program have been deemphasized. i was wondering if you might speak to dr. king's legacy and the panthers' and the way the message has been manipulated historically. guest: it is difficult for them to manipulate the message of the black panther given the youth,

platform, and in the case of dr. king, we saw and could tell that dr. king was a genuinely revolutionary leader but presented it in a christian context, which makes it more threatening, and king was very aware that his life was going to be shortened by the things he did. the black panthers were mostly teenagers, a youth movement with a handful of leaders over 21. the energy of the black panther party was a very, very different in the sense that we had chapters over the country, different programs, and we also stand on social and political issues that directly affected and the people of that generation. host: you have elizabeth and fort lauderdale, florida, on the lauderdale, -- for

60 and older. -- my pointve just is what gets me on a regular women come ony programs with these very serious subjects, and the smile, grin, and laugh. they get introduced, and they [indiscernible] in their mouth. whatever, and i understand, but i have never seen so much women coming on with the smiles. i don't see anything funny. host: professor joseph?

guest: thinking about the king holiday and the caller's message, it has been a great example of racial symbolism. and immemorial ensure dr. king would not be forgotten and he was recognized as one of america's founding thinkers in a post-world war ii sense. witho embrace dr. king what the nation has done in terms of mainstream is the radical eyes king -- de-radicalized king's message, his anti-capitalism, his courageous ability to speak to power and to talk about white racism, and privilege, and it turned him into this soft and fuzzy teddy bear, a figure everyone could love, even though

the last three years of his life, when he is in chicago battling mayor daley, when he is no longer political friends with lyndon johnson, people are castigating king and saying that -- there is one newspaper report in 1967 that says king and stokely carmichael are the batman and robin of the movements, and saying there are two sides of the same coin. so we choose to remember only the king who ends with the i have a dream speech at the march on washington, and we don't even interrogate that speech because it is about reparation. that is the speech where he says, we are coming to cash a check that has been stamped insufficient funds, but we refuse to believe that the bank of american justice is bankrupt. that is what he says in 1963. when we think about his legacy, part of the irony of his legacy is the fact that he becomes the

most visible symbol of the 1960's and even bigger than the black panthers, but we robbed him of his own political agency and the way in which he tries to move it. king loves america and that criticize america. host: you mentioned stokely carmichael a couple of times. you are the author of the book stokely life, explain or he fits into this story we have been talking about in the last hour. ist: stokely carmichael born in trinidad in spain and comes to the united states in 1952, 1 of the few african-american students who is at a competitive school you have to test into. he joins the nonviolent action nicc affiliate at

howard university in the 1960's, and becomes one of the most courageous civil rights activists. he is a freedom rider, gets arrested in jackson, mississippi, and spends 49 days and the penitentiary. secondmes the congressional district leader of the mississippi freedom democratic party. he is good friends with martin luther king jr. he knows malcolm x and is by him. i 1965, stokely is one of the -- by 1965, stokely is one of the leading graduates, he helps organize sharecroppers in alabama who become a freedom organization, who are nicknamed the black panther party, and when we think about the black panther party for self-defense, the county becomes -- provides the first sign of the symbol of

what becomes the black panther party in 1966. it is stokely carmichael who calls the black power in 1966 during the meredith march in greenwood, mississippi, and becomes this huge icon post assassination of malcolm x. carmichael is named honorary prime minister of the black panther party, initially field marshal and by executive order from hearing the and really two large rallies and oakland and los angeles and becomes one of the key pivotal and to produce a paid it in both of those movements. he moves to west africa in 1969 and dies of prostate cancer in

november of 1998. really one of the iconic figures who becomes an unreconstructed revolutionary and he changes his name to honor the pan african ghana but really one of the key revolutionary figures of the 1960's, even in the 1970's and to 1990's, continues to articulate those revolutionary ideas. host: kathleen cleaver? guest: i wanted to make a clarification that the name the black panther party came from an organization that stokely and other people in the counting alabama were collaborating with the local community, who wanted to, for the first time, run candidates for office, so they had a political party, lowndes

county freedom organization, and they had a symbol to vote for them and it was a symbol of the panther. so people began calling it the black panther party but they used that for certain reasons, saying it is an animal who will never -- you mind its own business, but if you reach out to attack them, he will wipe you out, but this symbol and the notion and the black panther as connecting with radical black politics was very popular. another group in california took the name and said, black panther party perceptive that's. host: anthony has been waiting in texas, line for those between 30 and 60. caller: good morning and thank you for taking my call. i wanted to highlight something i have seen over the weekend, several articles in the new york times regarding the census bureau, and a study that they had been working on since 2004,

which concluded with them deciding that they would create a designation for hispanics and arab-americans, so they would not talk to define themselves as white. however, the trump administration, with jeff sessions, came up with another question, which i'm sure you know, they rejected the designation for hispanic and arab-americans, and opted for united states citizen, a question on if you are a united states citizen because they fear a true depiction of the democratic in the cut -- of the demographic in the country and what they really are. just as they keep the packaging the same practices and bringing them to us in different ways, basically it could have an impact, according to the articles i read on voting rights, housing, and many other

important resources, and it is just these types of practices have not made this greater but weaker. host: we will come back to your question after we hear from ed in north carolina on the line for those 29 and under. caller: good morning and thank you, c-span, and the guests for having this conversation. i appreciate it. if i could ask for the comments on a couple of topics. one, do they know anything or their opinion on critical legal series, something i heard up recently, and it might be related to civil rights, and the other thing, i do not know if it is to an appropriate to ask, but if dr. king were still with us today, to the guests think that the landscape of politics in the country would be different than

it is? host: thanks. a couple of different issues. kathleen cleaver? guest: how dr. king remained -- had dr. king remained alive, had his movement been able to implement the project see initiated, it is not so much if he was alive but if those structures for political change were still dynamic and being funded, and people could participate, then some of the goals could have conceivably been implemented, but he was assassinated and for very clear reasons, and that is exactly what the power structure did. we were left to her own devices again. host: dr. joseph? do you do what if history questions? guest: [laughter] not really, but what i will say is this, when we think of dr. king, if he was still alive, we have seen this transformed

political landscape, including someone recently elected president, who never held office, so i think it would have been tremendous pressure on him and we would have seen how he would have responded. he responded by saying no when people wanted him to run and we would have seen it symbolically on protest tickets. i think now the idea of having some massive social movement leader actually running for political office would not be far-fetched. it is just that we don't necessarily have the same kind of iconic leaders now that we did then. but i do agree with professor movement thathe he helped mobilize, if it continued to evolve and develop well he was alive, maybe things would be somewhat different. that movement continues to evolve and develop that he has not been alive to be one of the primary articulators of that movement, which had its own

benefits and drawbacks. host: about 10 minutes left this morning on 1968, america in turmoil. we are on c-span and c-span3 as we covered the civil rights movement and race relations in 1968. james in greensboro, north carolina, on the line for those 61 and older. caller: good morning, c-span. i like everyone came on to talk about this situation. then,s going on back eldridge cleaver was a type of the hero to me. i remember one of my friends gave me his album back then instead of cds, that i listened to his speech, and it all made sense. what we need to do, we need to organize even better than the 1960's because it was a spiritual movements to advance the program of this country does it was such a dominated country

against us because of the color of our skin. and then he gave us so many names, but back then, we were called negroes, and colored, and then it became black. if you look under the dictionary under black, it is all negative. that is why we get shot in the streets because of patriot. hatred -- because of patriot. -- because of hatred. itself inces different faces and colors and stuff, so we need to do something to change things, and everybody is waiting for us. host: kathleen cleaver? guest: i think what you are complaining about his something i would refer to as white supremacy. it has been a key component of america from its beginning. however, at this point, white

supremacy is in trouble because the majority of the american population within the next 25 years, will not be white. it is increasingly latino, african-american, asian, and the population growth that is protected, they have cities called majority minorities, meaning minority populations are in the majority. that will continue so i have the feeling over the next 40 years or so, we are going to see toitical changes in response the composition of the american population and therefore, the political class. host: the caller brings up eldridge cleaver. when did you get married to him? guest: at the end of the 1967. we kept arguing, december 30 or december 31? [laughter] host: when did he die? 1 -- i amdied may trying to think of the year.

i cannot remember right this minute. host: and some of those people who joined u.s. the beginning of the black panther party, where they there? guest: not at all. he had left the black panther party, he had become a republican and his fatal was actually in los angeles, where he was living at the time, and if you people did come. one of our panda leaders, his name was geronimo pratt, and he was arraigned on a murder case, and finally after the this kb's petition, and by the time this 1 -- kbs petition, and by the time this one came along, that when they decided to let him out. he had been a major leader in the black panther party. and he came to eldridge's funeral. the black panther party was an extraordinary organization and

its a an the enormous amount of violence, and people who were still in it are still in prison, or people who were in the movement still supported. a large number of community people still admire the efforts of the black panther party. host: about five minutes left. i wanted you to talk about that iconic moments from 1968 at the olympic games, the two american olympic athletes and the symbol, the salud they gave our viewers on the screen.explained that moment for those unfamiliar. guest: yes, that is the 400 meter relay race in the mexico city olympics, october 16, 1968 that is. tommie smith and john carlos who won the gold and bronze medals, respectfully, and they were part of a larger movement that has been inspired by dr. harry 1960's, tothe late

try and have a boycott of the olympics of black athletes, boycotting the olympics, because of the human rights violations happening in the united states against african-americans. everything from police brutality to racial segregation, to violence against blacks. when we think about what eventually happens, some athletes at the olympics decided that if they did win, they were going to stage these protests, is what smith and carlos do they go to the podium without any shoes on, just black socks, they each have a black glove, and they raise the black power symbol. it is interesting because that was a powerful, iconic moment, but they were kicked out at the olympic village, stripped of their medals, vilified in the mainstream by the 1990's, san

jose state, where they were athletes, had erected statues in their honor. really, over a quarter of the century, they were denied employment, the access and opportunities that they should have been afforded because they made this human rights protest. for them, what they were in solidarity with was indigenous people all over the world who were being oppressed, including african americans in the united states, but all people all over the world, the third world, people of color, and others of press. in a way, when we think of smith and carlos, they anticipated what happened to colin kaepernick and where his protest against police brutality and against racial injustice became reinterpreted as an indictment in this anti-american act, when

what he was trying to do was really unveil and sheds light on contemporary racism, and that is what smith and carlos were trying to do. one last thing, a were embraced by black power, so after they come back from the olympics, they tour howard university, historical black colleges, stokely carmichael is there, and others. they really become supported. people like kareem abdul-jabbar, jim brown, like athletes who were very racially conscious at the time, support them, as well. host: kathleen cleaver, less than a minute left, we started by asking dr. joseph where the civil rights movement was at the end of 1967 and beginning of 1968. where you think it was at the end of 1968 as 1969 dawned? guest: at a crossroads with many possible options. there were those who wanted to go back to africa, into community service, those who

wanted to work in the community and said we should not be out here, we should be organizing strugglesng community , solving community issues, and i would say it was a panorama of possibilities at the end of the 1960's. all of which are still, in a way, some levels being part of our culture. host: kathleen cleaver is at emory university, school of law, senior lecturer and research fellow. dr. joseph's director for the study of race and democracy at the university of texas at austin. time.you, both, for your we appreciate the conversation. guest: thank you for having me. guest: thank you. host: next week, our 1968: america in turmoil series continues with liberal politics. our guests will be robert kennedy's daughter and former maryland lieutenant and michael a. cohen, author of american

maelstrom, the 19 to see it election and the powe politics f division. coming up on c-span3, american real america begins with coverage from april 1968 of martin luther king junior' assassination, the aftermath and funerals of the slain civil rights leader. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2018] host: tomorrow on "washington joined bywe will be the foreign policy fellow at the brookings institution on a conversation on u.s.-russia relations in the recent and the ongoing controversy on election hacking. and the founder of free range kids talking about utah being the first day to legalize free range parenting.