>> "washington journal" continues. for discussion on criminal justice reform, we're joined by ark holden, chair of the group freedom partners.

mark holden, for viewers who are familiar, what is the relationship of freedom partners the koch brothers. > not to get into the c discussion, i'm not that familiar with all of them, but i'm the chairman of freedom partners, rmboard. and it is designed to help improve their lives, remove barriers to opportunity all xpand opportunity for americans, especially the disadvantaged. the koch brothers, i'm lessed and lucky to work with charles and david koch. charles and dived are aligned ith the groups, as well, freedom partners and others. koch industries and freedom partners interested in reform? guest: we have a vision based on also on society

of mutual benefit, where people succeed by helping others succeed. we look at different issue necessary our country and ociety and try to remove barriers to opportunity when we see them. so, for example, in the criminal huge e system, there are barriers to opportunity, for many americans, particularly the it creates aged, major poverty trap, for andrations of americans now it is unjust. we try to eliminate injustices criminal justice reform is of course, always rotecting and enhancing public safety. we want to again, make sure we rights ystem of equal and justice and make sure we with dignity and respect in the system, obviously people accused of crimes, it also includes law includes the d families of all of them. more just to have

society and have more of a redechltive and restorative and sense of criminal justice. people come out better than they a real second e chance that enhances public safety. this is part of our goal to make more just and free society. host: how do you work toward the goal? working with congress and advocating for legislation? depends. legislation is important, no doubt. years, we've 40 probably gone way too far on how e treat people who get caught up in the criminal justice system. i think it is overly punitive the last 10 n years, particularly with states like texas and others that you reduce crime rates and idivismation rates,

and state level, much broader than that. affects n issue that communities and families. there need to be nongovernment well.utions, as with freedom partners, should roups we work with like stand together, it is a group that works in communities with groups who help reduce rates, sm, reduce crime like for example, the last mile, program, squentin in california, we work with them, dallas, in south dallas safer and better place to live. we want to find all aspects the criminal ct justice system and make it a more just system, a safer system we do that through whether working to change laws, hearts and minds. for example, koch, we banned the box, hire people with criminal for decades now and

found that to be great way and mutual situation, benefit where we get good employees who need a second get a and individuals second chance to prove themselves coming out of prison and that is better for society, they end up being recid vat they don't or hurt others. host: in the discussion about reform tochlt ce joinversation, democrats, 202-748-8000. republicans, 202-748-8001. and independents, 202-748-8002. special line for those with xperience in the criminal justice system, want to hear your stories and what you would 202-748-8003. we mentioned legislation, one of those pieces moving through congress is the first step act. what is that? passed by house of representatives and i talk about major bipartisan vote 360-59.

both parties came together, that is what we like to see, we bring about positive change. hopefully reduce recidivism, it is prison reform more ll make prison focused on rehabilitation and just ation as opposed to warehousing and incapacitating. so?: how guest: have program necessary prison like education programs, programs, also therapy, things of that nature, things that improve in the state. mentioned texas previously, one state that has done this. others.rolina, many what the states have shown, when you take evidence-based, practi rehabilitation and other aspects ou get better outcomes and reduces crime rates and incarceration rates and recidivism rates. in texas, they closed eight prisons in the last decade and crime rates since

the 1960s and saved $4 billion money.ayer one other place we're focused on on is part of what we work hand in glove with the element, group called safe streets and second n is part of what we work hand in glove with the element, group callede koch industries, charles koch institute, right on crime and also florida state university and four states, trying to help of with inmates coming out prison so they get better outcomes compare what is we do nd working with the state institution to get better outcomes. host: before we leave, criticism highlightedslation, by eugene robinson in his piece "washington post" prompt aggressives are sharply divided on the measure mostly do.ause of what it doesn't the bill does nothing to address he main problem, with is that nation sends far too many people to prison and keeps them locked for far too long. sentencing reform, for which there is some bipartisan support congress, not enough to get

legislation through both chambers. front end act ignores of the problem, sentenceing and back end. the guest: i'm a proponent, as is industry, of sentencing reform, as well. we have seen in congress and in sometimes it is difficult to do more than one thing at a time generally, with egard to criminal justice issues. this is something really good. if you look at what drives a lot obviously opulation, people coming into the front end, look at that. also recidivism, from 30 to 50% of people who leave end up back in the system, 30 to 70%. to reduce work sesidivism and some programs we that, you will o reduce the size of the prison population. what is example of common -- you support? guest: similar to what has gone

on in the court, veterans courts, things that keep peoplel ut of the system, whether mentally ill, drug addict, hether they made a bad choice, nonviolent, not a good use of resources to lock them up, keep and back on rison the streets and then work on whatever the issue is that led and they eak the law don't end up with a criminal record potentially. are some at the federal level. one of my good friends got years in federal nonviolent sold marijuanahe to a drug informant, he had a handgun with him when he sold marijuana. that law needs to be changed. it was supposed to be set up originally, a five-year mandatory minimum your time time, 25 the second you do something, after you are out of prison the first time and be her 25 years, that would another common sense reform at

the federal level, there is on as far as i understand it. host: another piece of reform tion, sentencing and corrections act moving through congress earlier this year, here is what the attorney had to say about that act. sessions years, ag said convicted drug -- breaks and the federal courts united states sentencing commission. pass thanksgiving legislation to further reduce sentences for traffickers in the midst of the worst drug crisis in history difficult to more achieve our goals and have consequences.ire that from february of this year. guest: i respectfully disagree attorney general's positi position. drugs probably won the war because the rate of illegal use of drug and amount used are higher now than they ever were. evidence-based and data driven practices, keep

people safe, no one wants unvaf.ities what you learn, low level offenders don't need to be in rison for a long period of time. when they are, they come out and we make the situation worse, roird, e a criminal probably picked up bad habits while in prison. should be based on evidence-based data-driven practices. a lot was based on emotion and ear, no data shows that mandatory minimum from that era reduce crime rates. eople think it may have reduce today by a quarter. they don't know. we know what works now, using being sessment and thought bfl who goes to prison and who doesn't and for how long nd having program necessary prison to get rahabilltated and ly programs to ul assimilate back into society. freedom partners, it is freedom partners.org, if you out.to check it

sonya, in illinois. go ahead. caller: good morning, c-span and all the listeners. sir, i understand that you wetion the koch brothers and understand that they are the backbone of the republican party. to, you know, give money to those organizations republicans. nd i had a concern about the privatizationa of the judicial system. nd the prison system as a whole. it is a lot of things you are aying that sound good, i'm concerned about the privatization issue because that seems to be more or less what brothers tend to lean toward. host: thanks for the call. for the question no to be clear, we have interest in financial or private prisons, we are not involved. to make it ent is more fair and just, like i've been talking about. charles and david

koch, they are two different individuals. we have years, supported republicans nationally more done democrats. unfortunately, in 2014, had the democratic party, reid making harry us the issues and attacking it to yday, makes it easier support one side than the other and went with republicans on that. prison, k to private the goal is to have fewer prisons and fewer people in public safety. as far as private prison, maybe prison in are in private prison, as i understand it, for federal crime there is with immigration detainees these days. a fan of any prison system that doesn't make people better. we should focus more on outcomes, what gets better and my pointpeople of view, whether a private or public prison, should be judging meaning people

coming out better equipped to succeed in society? go with s the case, that model. the same time, ask ourselves the private why are there prisons and part of the reason, prison, much on public we spend still over 250 million year on criminal justice system, we spend $80 billion on in our ation alone country, three to four times capita. we have bigger issues. host: coming back to the numbers you gave, number from federal prison, 184,000 federal inmates, about 10%, 18,000 held in privately managed facilities. held in other types of facilities. guest: yeah. the focus should be on reducing the size of our justice system safely

and based on data-driven practices. we've seen in the past, 10 year necessary 34 states that ave passed comprehensive meaningful criminal justice eform, reduce recidivism rates and incarceration rates and crime rates, people are safer, on.t is what we should focus host: john had experience in the criminal justice system in washington, d.c. go ahead. caller: good morning. morning. hello. morning, hi. director of a special committee here in washington, d.c. we help the population of country known as black americans. prison system e as pretty much designed after slavery to keep the -- the money flowing, free labor in this

country and this ends with a lot f black americans in this country. now here is cure to end this prison population system. start with the legal new recovery.d you hear a lot of civil rights, lack americans hollering for reformation, that is not legal definition of our injury. we help black men, black omen, we try to give them motivational -- i should say is ings to let them know it ot as bad as it is, but benefits average black american starting with the least that has the financial capacity to help themselves in this country. john, got your point. guest: yeah, john, i think what ou're doing is admirablea, working with people, sound like people formerly incarcerated and trying to get back on their

feet. i agree. i agree that the criminal prison system in our population is definitely over people colored brown and black peep and he will need to looksue we at and address. the whole system is set up, a system.red so as brian stevenson says, the ich in guilty got to be a better deal than the poor and innocent . it is pay to play system and unfortunate. if you have resources, you will probably be okay. u don't, you will probably get run over. talking about sentencing and prison reform, it starts sooner than that. you have aset forfeiture or it practice, you should do on whether you are a flight risk, we end up with people who ave the least resources end up going to jail, even if they have not done anything other than be crime.d of a it has such terrible

consequences for them. to from there to a power prosecutors and plea bargaining, defenses counselors country. they are well staffed, but in the states, it's a mess, 80% of the system require a public defender, someone who court appointed. that is a problem there. talk about sentencing and prison and reentry. one of the biggest injustices is eople pay their debt to society, serve their sentence and do that. they get sxout we have almost 50,000 collateral consequences to criminal conviction to keep been incarcera incarcerat incarcerated, keep them from etting jobs, housing, loans, benefits, occupational licensing, it is injust and wrong. system from at the beginning to end and try to fix it. what john is doing is a great thing. communities play a vital part in

this. hollanded a lot of calls, little time. nescottsdale, arizona. c-span, thanks, i love thanks for taking my call mrchlt holden, two questions. going to pay for vocational programs in prisons? the states can't afford, as we've seen recently, to pay schools open eep and are there professionals prisons, go in the education people, vocational specialists? highly publicized case where a woman teaching was brutally attacked. it was a terrible situation, the state ended up paying million reformation. different topic. afraid of the willie

one. you're spot-on. politicians, it's an issue for 30 years, the whole tough on crime era and the willie horton era. been part of the discussion on the issues and i think that changed in the last years, talk about texas and other red states. are hole idea should be we smart on crime and soft on tough on, forget about crime, that is jargon. ook at the states, we have a great plan, great program that the federal government can follow and they are starting to go to the second question on prison reform side. here is the deal, federal level be $50 million every

year given for the programs. think the really, what i is a great innovation in this -- step act, , first they will allow outside groups o come in and work with the ma population, so groups like from the last mile, there is other groups out there like twin prison ise, the entrepreneurship in texas. able to come in and work, as well. what we've seen in the state, somewhat a type of public-private partnership in situations. i was up in michigan earlier his year and they have got a hanlin state prison, innovative calvin they have college as in-prison program and hey built up for the inmates, obviously, built up vocational village that trains individuals out, they have

jobs, carpenters, mechanics, name.are welders, you it the bottom line, studies have in-prison programs, vocational programs for every of ar spent reduce $4 to $6 future incarceration cost. great investment. act, in the first step working through congress, is there new money in the act for about s you are talking or is it all reapropriating? 50 million each year will be appropriate, i'm not sure the details on that. host: sun city, florida. john is a republican. good morning. morning.good the whole program with the eenal system is they have too many that reoffend. kidshave all of these young that have no respect whatever police. law, for the and when they get their butts kicked after they run away and second time, t a the cop is not going to let them

go a third time. problem here is no respect for the law. guest: thank you. that is one maybe part of the problem. there are bigger problems frchlt perspective, there is a lot of data that shows a school to in this country and our system, i'm not -- everyone is responsible for don't get meivity, wrong. but the same time, you look at who gets caught up in the they have no respect for the law, they have also had huge disadvantages in making excuses, what we know, someone gets quality mentor, someone holds them accountable, gives them opportunity, takes advantage of opportunity, regardless of socio economic situation, you won't end up in the system. you don't have that and come has crime,unity that you end up in that system and at his point in time, we have three million children in this

ountry who have a parent or parents m prison. we got to look beyond saying humble has in my opinioopinion do not have respect of the law. there is dysfunction and communitiesn in our we need to address. host: special line set aside for those with experience in the system, that ise 202-748-8003. democrats, republicans and independents as usual. aul is in new york, an independent, go ahead. caller: hello. mentioned that a couple of eight or ybe close to nine states had made commendable their criminal and prison system. mention two or three that you -- states, that you have done a particularly

good job in that area, other them as ght look to examples to emulate. thank you. you. thank texas, which i mentioned, is definitely one. georgia olina, i'd say and connecticut, delaware. maryland has made some reform. mississippi just had first round recently. overall and probably leaving some out. host: who would you put at other end of the spectrum? a state like florida, starting to, though. third largest prison population, but to their credit, democrats and republicans, we work with issues, inm on these particular, they passed we think data bill for t florida. basically do mri of the state what in each county, what are ferecidivism and

target reform. florida needs to do reforms. pretty much na is reno reform.pot for governor doocey is a good man. set up with the economy in arizona that is really booming and when that happens, means they need more workers. when people need more workers benefit, a ally win/win solution, where people are willing to hire people with skilled up.ords you get them skilled up, they jobs, that d can get could work in arizona. i mentioned michigan, one want to say thing i about that, they are getting probably like 80% of people come trained through the vocational village. he education program provide scholarships for the children of

the inmates, which i think is really another way to break this cycle. host: why is that so important? guest: education. is key.n education, vocational training, of time, those ahead you will probably not end up in prison. places people didn't take advantage or didn't go, it is. what growing up a prison when i was in college. i am from middle class working background. i went to public school, if i didn't have an education, i could be behind bars. what was your job working in prison? guest: i was a guard. kids i went to skol with, i grew up with, were in prison. better of view, i had parents. they made me do things i didn't want to do and i couldn't do the wanted to do all the time. i was electd and it shouldn't country, luck in this but that is how it often works.

host: mark holden, about five inutes left in the discussion with him. get to as many calls as we can. line robbins, illinois, for democrats. go hade. caller: yes, good morning. my question is sort of similar the caller from new york. many of the people who are in prison come from poor and i wanted to know what freedom partners is doing o help those communities on a ocal level with people being released back into the communities, are they doing anything to help? uest: thank you for your question. i think i mentioned earlier, we support a lot of groups across that deal with reentry issues, also we deal, a lot of member group fos cussed on k-12 education, people get better education based on education they need because everyone differently. but specifically as to reentry, hich for us, at koch in particular, is important issue,

something we can play a role in. 100,000 business with plus employees around the world. ne in three peep nel this country have some type of riminal record, 25 to 30% of people in the country with a we banned cord, as application, we don't get into that issue until later in the conversation about employment. that point in time, we want to learn everything and that is a factor we will look at. data point, you are incarcerated, have a criminal record. overwhelm et that everything else. that is great way to find good people with ring criminal record, hard workers, humble, they want and need a second chance. employer, that is something we can do and we can operations.have our we're working with that safe chances d second reentry program, we hope a model

program. e are in texas, pennsylvania, florida and kentucky right now. our motto is, reentry begins day of incarceration. it is not the end of the line. better outcome, we are here to help. couple things we do. democrats.for good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking the call. and his mr. holden organization for his interest and this effort they are making issue, but atular the same time, i notice the topic is criminal justice reform. him to speak to just the issue of justice reform. as eugene robinson spoke about problem, hed of the talked about looking at the issue from beginning to end ecause justice is not really justice and justice should be justice across the board regardless of your status in the ty, whether you have

judge was abusing her authority trust.lic the only -- his case comes to ight, he had friends with money. could you speak to that issue? prison is big business. for the call. guest: i totally agree with you, his gets back to what i said earlier, we have a two-teared system. a celebrity is tochlt his credit, from what i understand, mr. mill, he is using this as a positive to himself.he system he's going to be advocate he realizes he got a break because that is thename and problem with our system that we need everybody, as you said, to the same. our system should be blind, it for d be all about justice all. that way. happen we use criminal justice system

or a lot of issues, never designed to address such as peep issue drug public ddiction, severe paf erty, mental illness. changing. once you paid your debt to society, you should be welcomed get all your rights unless you are a threat to public safety, occupations or things like that, we take opposite approach, drives rates, which are so high and it is immoral. we need to fix that. to learn about freedom partners, it is >> c-span's washington journal

live every day with news and policy that impact you. and the role of teacher unions. centennial institute director jeff hunt talks about the state of conservatism and the upcoming western conservative summit. migration policy institute sarah pierce on current u.s. policy towards immigrant children who into united states from the border. sure to watch c-span's washington journal live at 7:00 eastern this morning. join the discussion. live, wednesday, on the c-span networks. andoon, on c-span, discussion on countering violent extremism and the role of the state department of the husband is to. at 2:00 p.m., the wilson center looks at transatlantic relations after the u.s. withdraw from the run nuclear agreement.

on c-span2 at 9:00 a.m., the national league of cities releases the state of cities report. at noon on c-span2, the cato congress'sonsiders war powers and how it can reassert itself in the decision process. p.m., the state of climate action in the u.s. and globally that the u.s. world resources institute. president trump plan to attend a summit with north korean singapore on june 12 of that meeting has been canceled. next, a discussion about u.s. and north korea diplomacy as negotiations continue. the stenson center hosted this event. and the roles of south korea, japan, and china. this is just over an hour.