policies are impacting their bottom line. friday, join us for a discussion on the opioid crisis, live from baltimore, maryland. >> a former jihadis two worked with al qaeda and the former new york city intelligence officer responsible for having him oh -- arrested joined a discussion. we will hear from the leader of the now defunct group. organized by the center for strategic and international ready. -- studies.

>> great group on a monday morning. thank you for coming. we have a great event today. we have a few people still trickling in. before we start, i had a few quick comments. welcome to the center for strategic and international studies. my name is seth jones. our work is available on the website. we have had recent publications on everything from has the law -- has the law activity -- hezbollah activity that will be published later this week. we dole other comments, not expect any emergencies, but just in case we have one, we have exits in the back at multiple locations. we also have them to the right of the stage.

in general, the rendezvous point for emergencies is over at the national geographic museum, located right next door. if you have not been over to their current exhibits, they are fantastic as well. i am not being paid to say that, but there are some great programs, including the titanic exhibit over there. we want to thank the people for all the work they have put into this, from max upfront to charlie valley, to make and and clayton, who are helping as well. the way we are going to do the human day, there are cards in front of your seat. , there are cards in front of your seat. after the initial discussion is over, we will move into a q and

a from a p a. at any point, if you have questions, please write them down. andlie, do we have nick clayton in the room right now? mitch point to them when is done with his introductory remarks. i am happy to have a discussion on the unmaking of jihadism, the current effort to combat violent extremism. we have the principal cofounder of the guardian group. practitioner come up based on his work at nypd and an author. , usedok on al qaeda plot it in my counterterrorism classes. thank you for educating my students along the way. jesse morton is the founder and codirector of parallel networks. we will get into a range of issues regarding extremism and

counter extremism during this discussion and q&a portion. i will sit down and we will move the microphone. thanks. >> what i would like to do is begin by turning to jesse. we have a really interesting background. i want to ask you if you could ask wayne the origins of revolution muslims. involvement and then your transition. then i want to go to mitch for the other side of this. for a chunk of years, you were sitting on the opposite side. was publicly the

first organization in the u.s. unabashedly emoting al qaeda and jihadism on the streets. we were one of the first .rganizations we initiated in 2007. we were one of the first organizations to experiment with the more social media one of the first organizations to experiment with the more social media oriented platforms such as facebook, twitter and we ran from 2007 until about 2011. i started the organization as an individual who is attending columbia university school of international public affairs, attempting to operate in two rounds. one under my birth name and one under my adopted islamic name, mohammed. we partnered with abdullah was a -- who was a jamaican cleric who is responsible for radicalizing people -- but was incarcerated

ofbritain for communication threats and was transported to jamaica where he expressed an interest in inserting his jihadist perspective into the american culture. we formulated an organization against with three. when was an orthodox jew. one was a jewish national and then we operated and came to new york and he gave us an interesting dynamic where we had a charismatic preacher with legitimacy, having been educated in saudi arabia. the political expertise to frame the narrative in a way that -- the jihadist narrative in a way that coincided to revolutionary politics, if you will, and then you have a colleague -- with a reputation online that was somewhat viral and able to push back have become what we called the clown. he was able to antagonize the right wing and the anti-islamic

crowd to exploit that the point -- so that they could point to us as an organization that was calling for the implementation of short dialogue in the united -- of sharia law in the united states. it was a template that evolved over time we partnered with people like [inaudible] to formulate the very first english language jihadist magazines and from 2007 until i was arrested , we set anca in 2011 template upon which jihadist propaganda had evolved since. not just the use of social media 2.0, but the development of that magazine and the private rooms that we see similar to the way isis uses telegrams today to conduct their one-on-one recruitment efforts et cetera. in 2011 after threatening the writers of south park between them is mohammed casablanca expecting to be indicted by the u.s. government.

while i was there, i started a long process of the -- of de radicalization i lived in the beginning of the arab spring and was motivated by the fact that i was teaching people english teaching economics at a local university in english equivocating with my students about what they wanted to see going forward in morocco. i was enthralled by the fact that they were committed to liberal principles that still had an islamic identity and they sort of eradicated these ideas that i had about the hypocrisy from among the modern muslim community and opened up to recognizing that what people in the middle east, particularly in or -- wereted, things i wanted and to for -- and took for granted. osama bin laden placed a piece of propaganda is trying to rebrand al qaeda and essentially he had a talk about global warming which is a try to betray him as more of a progressive intellectual as opposed to a person who is calling the plea -- calling simply for violence

and terrorism. that faux pas because it was irrational and did not make sense. that's what i reckon as semi views of the man who was held to be 8 feet tall had come down to a more realistic understanding of what he represented if this was someone responsible for making policy. it was absurd. i was arrested for weeks after -- three weeks after he was killed and set for extradition back to the states and in that -- back to the states. in that time i interacted for five months in moroccan prison with one of their chief charismatic preachers responsible for radicalizing those that were not to conduct attacks in casablanca. he challenged my ideology because he himself changed. i found that interesting. i was -- he was scared about what i was facing and felt it was difficult because i was starting to change before my rest. -- my arrest. u.s. government came on a

private plane to find a home where i found out i was facing life imprisonment and found out that the united states had overtime was not [inaudible] when they return me to -- returned me to alexandria, virginia, across the bridge was -- i was held in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day . there was a guard that felt sultry confinement was rather oppressive and she would take me four hours a day for ten hour shifts to the law library which has this library and that's where i read in sight with an enlightenment books and thomas paine and john locke and others , russo, which played a significant role in my going back to the cell for the day she was at work and rereading the koran and the islamic texts through a more post-enlightenment perspective. when i took the plea that kept me up to ten years it at sentencing i had to undergo a debriefing process and developed -- process with the fbi and i developed a very interesting relationship with a female fbi agent that showed me empathy,

but also at the same time, would , advocate for me to be an asset to someone who could help the government going forward. as time went forward and i traveled to syria and track and -- tracked and monitor them and make talked about [inaudible] obama have released the chief strategic implementation plans and i was giving input on that. throughout all my interactions with the fbi they were not waging war against islam they were primarily concerned with stopping acts of terrorism in -- and identifying those that may go on to commit violence. ultimately, i was originally sentenced to 11.5 years and served almost four years of that before the judge reduced my sentence due to my cooperation. i was released in march of 2015. where i continued to operate as an informant and in some -- and analyst in some capacity with the fbi and the public is america's first former jihadist but recognized that as time went on i have not actually done the

work of deradicalization because i refuted the ideology and they never address the issues that ultimately facilitated my entrance into radicalism in the -- radicalization in the first place. i've been sober for over year -- over one year and i'm doing work on myself but also trying to understand and taking a different perspective with regard to areas such as intervention and counter messaging, etc.. contributionking a for some ofmends the harm i caused under my former self. >> great. mitch, over to you. between 2006-2011 from the nypd perspective working directly against jesse so you talk about -- so could you talk about what he outlined from your perspective sitting on the other side.

jesse: -- seth: to some degree i was responsible for having jesse arrested and imprisoned. -- to some degree i was responsible for having jesse arrested and imprisoned. we will start their backpack my role at nypd instructor of intelligence analysis and i oversaw civilian analysts and detectives who were running investigations in new york city and during that period in 2006 or 2011 probably the most complicated and challenging investigation was that of revolution muslim and that specifically of jesse morgan. from 2006-2011 think of it as catch me if you can with jesse as leonardo dicaprio. i was trying to get in. -- i was trying to catch him. in the uk there's a group called [inaudible] and speaking with the uk security services depending on the time that you are speaking there with a 25-30%

of uk citizens were gone on to join al qaeda or some other jihadist organization spent some -- spent at least sometime in [inaudible]. we understood that in new york city we had a version of that. first, the society and then jesse's more extreme splinter organization revolution muslim and we were highly concerned about that. at nypd we were fortunately able to position an undercover nypd officer in revolution muslim and, in fact, as the it administrator. he knew what jesse was having for breakfast most days. however, it was difficult because jesse was a savvy operator. he knew where the line was as -- in terms of first amendment, and he was quite circumspect in accessing it. nevertheless, he was the type -- the chief ideologue or for revolution muslim and one of the things we outlined was that

there are 15 spots around the world that you can trace individuals who purchase paid in -- who participated in that then being followers or interacting with revolution muslim. it was a wide stance. you have two individual carlos almonte and two individuals from new jersey were radicalized and wanted to join. you have anotheris us citizen from brooklyn who traveled to pakistan and nypd interacted with the ambassador to have him to the ground at islamabad and -- and sent back to the us. his intention was to join al qaeda. your plots in the uk and plot to attack the london stock exchange over christmas in 2009. the stabbing of a uk parliamentarian by a woman who attacked him for his support of the iraq war.

you are at a plot against the new york city subway following the instruction in inspire magazine how to make a bomb in the kitchen of your boss. mom's kitchen. these are potentially deadly plots and all trace the origin back to revolution muslim. your plot in boston wanted to use a drone to attack the pentagon. frankly, even if you look at inspire magazine, the first issue of it, had a list of enemies and the primary author of the magazine had been a part of revolution muslim and in that magazine he listed enemies off of al qaeda was between me and met's which featured protection for my two sons and , wife for a few different times by the nypd. we mentioned in opposition to each other and it was very much the case. fast forward last summer the attack on the london bridge where it turns out one of the primary attackers was, in fact,

a member of this group. the story of nypd fighting this group has not been talked about and i knew jesse had been recently released from prison so i reached out to jesse and said let's tell the story about nypd and how the different techniques that revolutionizing pioneered the internet, social media interactions online, things are being adopted by isis. frankly, as isis moves into the stage of a particular palisade there are techniques that isis has adopted that were pioneered by revolution muslim and we need to look at more closely it will figure out how to adequately fight the virtual caliphate. -- virtual palisade. the partnership kicks off and we created this nonprofit organization called parallel networks. the idea is to do three things.

use formers to do ct research and number two, yes these -- use these formers for targeted interventions and a pre- criminal way so that 15, 16 -year-olds who have not crossed the line to criminality but are , spending time on isis websites and go down that road and third, interact with people gone at -- who have gone out of prison and need to rehabilitate but have a background and we know there are about a hundred people will be getting out of prison in the next five years in the us and to date there is no less -- there is no foreign laws program to help rehabilitate those people. that's a quick summary of my part on this side of where we are now. >> before going to jesse we have a couple of questions in the back to mitch. i wanted to remind anybody they have cards and if they could pass them down, charlie over here and nick over here, it can -- they can pick them up.

again, feel free as we talk to write down questions and they will pick them up and bring them to the stage. we will read as many as we can at last part of the q&a. >> two questions for you jesse, can you talk about your concept of the virtual caliphate and how it differed or is similar to the way the islamic state when it began in 2014 picked up pace in 2016, 17 and even now 18 -- how it differed or was similar? let me start with that and then i have a follow-up. jesse: i think it's important to pay attention to the historical evolution of online propaganda efforts to recruit. what we've seen is the development largely similar to the [inaudible] ability of people that in the beginning was a people living in espousing an

ideology that was generalized but when they traveled to yemen and the leader joined him, we had the first case of propaganda western that had a western version of al qaeda's narrative that appealed in many ways in much stronger to the stuff coming out of the middle east. there were not able to see this is the ideology you should adhere to. they were there to show you how to act on it. the fundamentally fascinating things for me working as an informant in prison, and creating a narrative of an individual, prominent individual, is one of my students who traveled to syria in the beginning of the virtual caliphate is coming to the awareness that isis propaganda when it comes to westerners is a -- targeting westerners is a western import. a lot of the individuals affiliated with [inaudible] and had heavy understanding of how to make the message appealable to those in the west embedded themselves and rocca were living

-- in rocca were living in a safe house altogether where they -- all together where they were concocting ways to utilize the internet, twitter particularly in the beginning and since navigated and adjusted the way -- the platforms in a way that we use to and they take us down on youtube and we haven't another channel up and running in the same day and we could take down our domain name but we have another running and that's the cat and mouse that the virtual caliphate has played played. now we have this idea of a virtual plot or virtual entrepreneur, someone who does not understand the eye theology -- the ideology may have compromised and migrated there and able to articulate in english the views but also to recruit and migrate the forms in the same way we use up program for direct messaging applications where we were able a broad lecture -- we were able to give a broad lecture, appeal

an individual could reach out and then we could engage them in one-on-one conversation. we could encourage them or we can disseminate more understanding to get actual action on the ideas but are faced with the difficulty we've seen it rather effective. this is the problem going forward. we can sustain without having any territorial control and sustain the idea that his support and to organize the -- the reason westerners during the caliphate is because there was a scene set in the minds and hearts of people there were living in last that the primary obligation of the muslim is living in the west that they have an obligation to work towards the caliphate. even if you destroy the caliphate it is that legacy established and the desire to return in the ability to refer back that will still serve an appeal. isis is essentially trying to sustain itself among western audiences by migrating to different platforms and

-- at the same time, we see a new phenomenon of competition between jihadist organizations that have led to the ultimate barbarity of isis and the entrance of a post isis world where al qaeda has been able to benefit from what social minutes call a radical effect where the brand was considered to delegitimize but now the violence promoted by al qaeda is considered moderate and has a broader appeal. you have to think ahead it's not just about isis versus budget virtual caliphate but of any virtual caliphate online with any different -- these things continue to mutate in one of the -- it is one of the important things is recognizable in the paper mitch and i wrote is that the splinter is important to be attended to because these things metastasize and metastasize into more and more accepting of one

violence but at the same time you're stretching like groups -- you're stretching the narrative to groups which have 30000 people by most estimates and the organization al qaeda which introduces an organization of their first attacks will disseminate the ideology there. we want to wait for the rise affiliated with territorial safe haven so now in the lag time with the territory has been dismantled, they will try to sustain the idea but we have an opportunity to attract for particularly for western audience and the united states because isis is digital minimizing itself. >> there are a number of u.s. policymakers who have argued that recently, the islamic state

has been crushed or eradicated. a number of americans, it has been a while since they have assessed, there have been notable jihadist attacks on american soil. certainly different from the british experience. britain had a number of attacks including the ariana grande a concert of manchester. how would you respond to this the islamic state or other groups have been either crushed or eradicated and what is your sense about the threat to the u.s., either the homeland directly or overseas? >> i would suggest that we have been here before.

that leaves an awareness that it is not a bad organization. this is -- the jihadists entity is one that runs on ideology but it is a movement. it is bound together by similar principles. some of which people can differ on. and you have competition among jihadists. with regard to the threat to the we went from a phase of command counterterrorism in the beginning to one of leaderless resistance that my organization helped facilitate. we are going back to a command situation where the internet or virtual caliphate makes that possible. there is a realization that she , both alommunities qaeda and isis are aware that in order to claim or retain the mantle of jihad, they will have to do an attack that is sort of -- that outdoes 9/11 or out rivals 9/11.

this is something that i am continuing to argue for, that we have a tendency in the jihad is committed to turn internal, but we so have to prioritize, really look at and adjust the on,ibility, not to ramble but the very first entity that was attacked was not an isis hand grew, anda al qaeda alliance that was syria, thatside of had an ongoing attacked ready to conduct if they had a plot at least and a plan to conduct an attack in europe that was in its last stages that would have rivaled with regard to casualties. pays very important to attention to these dynamic set above the capacity to facilitate. now you do not have to travel to

training,n, received now you can literally just do it from encrypted platforms. this is quite dangerous. eradicated, crushed, -- >> i do think we have been here before. i remember government officials talking about the demise of al qaeda. ebb after that, but ultimately there was a revival, in 2012, 2014. . to some degree i think we are in that ed in diagram. where will the safe haven be? lippi in libya? parts of syria? yemen?

somewhere in africa? unclear but there is no doubt that the ideology is still there. what makes the situation inferent from this first ebb 2012 is the number of european foreign fighters have returned , i was just in austrians went to syria iraq. a certain percentage of comeback. we are most likely to see, near the first ones a bit of a revival in europe with foreign may bes have returned, inspiring some individuals who read -- radicalized at home. the target may be u.s. target overseas, as well as domestic targets, i think the fact that we have many fewer u.s. citizens who have traveled

gives usto isis land, a certain measure of protection. artver, virtual plotters, -- can now be manipulated, operationalized overseas. i think those are the things i am most concerned about when i look at the horizon. i agree, it is not purely isis. qaedave to factor in al has use this time to regenerate itself in different parts of the world where they have control some territory, merged with the local entities, and the al qaeda threat is not off the table. you a follow-up question, something that you guys wrote in the conclusion from revolution muslim to the islamic state. that is quoting here, one reason most of the plot was sorted was

the nypd in your case successfully integrated undercover officers into the heart of both the islamic thinker society and revolution muslim. then you go on to say increased use of comprising digital undercover officers and informants, etc., what is your general sense in combating, countering on the u.s. law-enforcement and intelligent side. some of the lessons you have seen. i want to get into broader cbe issues in a moment. from the intelligence and law-enforcement standpoint, what are the key lessons? one of the key lessons is that some of it -- so much of it comes out to human intelligence, having the right sources placed in the right location. that is been an evolving phenomenon over time. location foral many years. u.s., there might

have been places where you knew atre was a radical mosque one point in time, then it moves to a bookstore, then a cafe, then a barbershop. those are all physical locations where you can have an informant or undercover to detect clusters of people radicalizing. beinge has moved on, online has turned out to be the place for you are most likely to encounter people using a virtual safe haven to meet. now it is these telegram channels. the only way you can be in these channels with some chance of detecting something is developing human assets will have the ability to interact in a way that is believable online. in new york we have police officers were very diverse, from a country of origin perspective, on the on those websites,

those channels and a way that is believable, so that they can look like the bad guys who they were trying to detect. successful.n the right human resources or human right locations when you think about the chelsea attack, last fall in new york. on the west side highway. an individual who was speaking to people overseas, but was not detected. that is why one of our conclusions was more effort, more resources, devoted to developing skilled operators in that space. >> does parallel networks have plans to perform present a radicalization program --

programming in the u.s., or is civil society, cbe space limited to pre-post incarceration? what is your involvement or what is the parallel network involvement is prison -- in prison radicalization? we are looking at the reentry and reintegration of individuals that have already come home to identify mechanisms through which you can provide in prison programming. one of the things we will be discussing -- discussing extensively going forward. the problem is when you look at models in the united states.

it is comfortably -- incredibly unique in comparison to others. you look at some of the things that need to be considered like the communication management unit, a model utilized by the po p2 isolate prisoners, but you essentially create an incubator. it takes one person to spoil the pool. have no marble cases, that even in western societies, but even just here at home. they were still able to publish an article on a blog about the day that they sent them to the communication management unit.

while he was in the communication management unit, he am self published article about people in the communication management unit came to him and asked him to teach classes. it is about having a program or we would have major publications because it only takes one person was a charismatic appeal and nosy ideology inside out to make sure the individuals in a change their believes. particular concentration in is developing expertise. that would require a government partnership with organizations but -- there is massive pushback among cbe operations. there is sort of this intuitive belief that if you partner with imons, you will be able to change ideas. when you look at the outcome of the interaction with people

committed to fundamentalism, you run the problem of whether or not i can be counterproductive. we see a situation in australia provideddern imons reintegration services that started in prison and continued upon release. the minute and individual bathroom, hotel killed the receptionist, and then went on to the street and injured police officer, just days later they would distance themselves from program participation. this can become very problematic you violate that the principle of do no harm. we want to be able to not just criticize it government -- the government for not having anything in place but provide a realistic alternative.

we are partnering with other organizations who are thinking along the same lines. >> please outline your thoughts on u.s. government counter violent extremism projects and programs more broadly. homeland security has been a pheromone of money on programs in communities. what is your sense about how effective things have been or not? some of the key challenges with u.s. efforts? overseas, the british have spent a fair amount of resources including channel and other s that have been introduced for individuals that have just left prison. what is your sense about here?

how effective those efforts have been and what some of the challenges are? think we looked at how the u.s. has approached it. it goes back to the obama administration. and their assessment that something needed to be done. was startlot of it and stop, there was interest but then questions how to move forward after the attack, the boston marathon, they rejuvenated interest in the u.s. there were three other pilot programs put into place in boston, l.a., minneapolis. it was determined that who should be in the lead --the u.s. attorney office should have cbe efforts.

they have tried to organize different people from the community to be involved in these efforts but frankly, one of the biggest problems in the u.k., in the u.s. the federal government is a clumsy actor. is a localion -- phenomena. they do not have legitimacy dealing with people in the field. there has to be an organic local effort to combat extremism. -- as a topic just cannot touch. they cannot touch the ideology that is also immobilizing individuals.

trying to push people off the path. it seems like local organizations, if you look at the gang world, you have taken former gang members and taken them and said go back to the community, talk about your i have been down that road. i know what you are thinking. it is a dead-end. if we had any advice for you, it would be to take a venture capital approach. provide some funding for local initiative that have credibility. it is not coming from the u.s. government. standards that they have to adhere to. >> especially to start.

question foria as a you. the role of women. what role fo you find women organizations?e from both a radicaliztion standpoint, as well as extremism, what role do women play? challenges is many have not returned to europe but many of their families have and are. >> they are a corner stone.

would look for women to monitor the chatrooms. the appealr women, is the opposite gender. it is tyically the case that a , they does not work stay home and taking care of their child. what we use a do is make it look like, there -- this is a woman that is sacrificing herself and her time for the sake of this movement. what are you men doing? there are many more variables and roles that women play their -- there.

down toludes everything -- we you want to refute ideas of western feminism, for example. what a powerful narrative it is to go on -- i cover my face because this is feminism from an islamic standpoint. in the sense of countering extremism and the role of women, .t is conclusive women have a serious role to have a serious role to play.

maybe they just seem to. having experience that and being able to detail what life was really like under the so-called islamic state and to document that and show the effect on children, their serious trauma. one of the most powerful narratives is to prove it is still sustainable and still legitimate is the idea of the caliphate. the fact they've prepared an entire generation of thousands and thousands of kids who of been prepped ideologically and operationally to carry this jihad into the next generation. so, challenging those narratives is incredibly important.

of thewing the trauma children. showing the fact that western society can deal with this in a non-sort of punitive way. they need to be given opportunities to heal, it particularly in cases where the risk assessment is conducted. where it seems like they can be reintegrated effectively. att is incredible, but also the same time the level of prevention can be most valuable. from a question for you the audience. let me preface it by saying there is the new contest that came out in june that includes concerns about the rising threat from extreme right-wing groups in particular. an attack at a mosque, the murder of a member of parliament. asks, about member

to role of the and reaction right-wing groups in the u.s. so what is the reaction from the extreme right hand how do we balance -- as we talk about whatever form, ethnic, extreme, extreme right-wing, religious, how do we balance it? was kickingdebate off in the u.s., because it is , when you're topic talking about al qaeda followers they tend to come from the muslim background because the ideology is trying to activate that part of their identity.

we have doing knowledge there are these other types of wingmism, right-wing, left , when we think about it in and look at them, and many ways they are not that different from at least the process of turning to violence. even though they are coming from different ideological roots. i would put gang violence in a area.ent we have to honestly say the cde discussion has to cover all of these. from a more personal perspective, we are focusing on butislamist type extremism, we are already having discussions with some of the right-wing extremism because the process to get into the extremism is the same. it is likely the process to bring people back are also

similar. so i think u.s. has to factor that in. as much as you would like to focus on groups who the isis, you would also want to find some anti--neo-nazi groups. jesse is also involved in a couple conversations with people isthe far right side and it timely we are coming up on the charlottesville anniversary to see if one person in particular who was a bit of a ringleader, to see if we could pull him back from violence and bring him back to the debate forum. parallel networks only use islamists or do you plan at some point to work with former neo-nazi white supremacists as well? several people of asked if you what the onto that,

biggest factor or factors in your radicalization process were . social, economic, other things? so if you could first start with the extreme white -- right-wing question and then go to your background. jesse: i think it is important to address right wing because i think this anti-islamic view that muslims were attempting to implement sharia by force. we deliberately antagonized before there was a massive rally of the anti-islam make sentiment. at this point, the jihadist need the far right and the far right need the jihadists. learning how to undermine that

is important. we have to take things one thing at a time. we are a startup. not funded. that we do have relationships with far right extremists, i retain a good relationship with people who are affiliated with organizations. life after hate is a good example. i found that my credibility as a former jihadist allows me to make breakthroughs, not just with people on the far right at the hubs of the far right network. if i reach out to the leadership of people organizing events or of people that are engaged in being primary ideologues, if i have- hey, i know you never gotten any mail like this but i see a lot of myself in you and i would like to engage in dialogue. we are engaging in trying to get one of the key leaders of that movement to go public and say, i

make an absolute commitment to nonviolence. which is progress. it opens an avenue for dialogue they can eradicate the polarization. the most catastrophic realities we see today are the polarizations of our societies. protestsand counter will only give them the fodder to save recourse of dialogue does not work. one of the attacks was done someone -- by someone from outside of right london. we saw a number of arrests and france for people committed to not attacks against muslims per se, but radical muslims. so the two issues are clearly intertwined and feed off each other, including the process.ation

can you talk a little bit about your own radicalization process? what were the factors that contributed to it? you talked earlier about it. : i think the antithetical theciples with regards to two radicalization were important. the role of trauma. tic upbringing. it is not an excuse, but it opened me up. i was searching for something. if i had been born 30 years ago i probably would've been pamphleteering with a hammer and sickle. unfairsociety had been to me but i also felt like i had something to contribute to the world and was denied the

opportunity. i come from poor working class. i experienced what the far right went through. i watched as education opportunities just -- decreased. asnow the impact it had heroin flooded into those societies. i watched it. i grew up around it. that led me to search for radical ideology but for reasons of resentment for the own leftists leanings in my house. are the variables associated. trauma is very important with regard to looking at, particularly when we look at areas of conflict. trauma is important to address with regards to that. there is an intervention i conducted where it is assumed this is a rational ideological choice. every time you conduct an intervention, you have to try to look at why a person chose that

ideology. you will always find in the orkground some life event circumstance, if you can get back to that route then you can truly get a person to realize they chose the ideology because it was an outward projection of their own frustration and their own pain. there was an alternative ideology that did not appeal to them. so you have to get to the root, the way you do that sometimes is by going backwards and sometimes you say, there is no need to talk about the ideology, let's talk about your life. it is understanding the interplay. the ideology is the conduit by in the back, it is the baggage at the level of prevention and even at the level of intervention that is the most important to pay attention to. >> there's a question about broader participation. the public in general, those watching, how can the greater

, nonlaw enforcement for example, combat online radicalization? our secular voices useful? any inle do we have if countering violent extremism? role,hink if there is a it is role to sort of encourage the debate and discussion. i think we heard described one of the pathways to turning to violence is feeling that your heard, couldot be not be engaged. whether it is on foreign-policy spectrum or other types of issues,matter, these having forums for discussing them is potentially a way to give people, if they are forced to defend their point of view and they are not in at the

chamber they might have to consider other viewpoints to factor that in. is that going to prevent somebody from going down this road? i don't know. the discussion on facebook, on twitter, it is so polarized. it goes to a level so quickly in terms of intensity. if there was some type of more extreme debate, that would obviously be less likely to antagonize people. but it is really more of a societal issue. >> last question to both of you. gets into the issue of freedom radicalization online. jesse, then to mitch. how do you limit the effects of

radicalizing online propaganda while retaining freedom of speech. it is an issue i know some of the silicon valley firms have had to struggle with. sse: that is quite a difficult question to answer. i think it is about finding the right balance. i think what we have done because of our first amendment is understandable. i walked right up to the line and they were not able to do much about it. but we have defaulted to social media companies. host: when you walked right up the line, what did that mean for you? we would press the issue right up to, you should act on these ideas. we created controversy and the press. the most violent thing we did was threaten the writers themselves, which got me incarcerated. that was because we did not have

the proper understanding of the first amendment. i was crafty enough when we to researchto it, and see what i could say, not say, what was considered a threat, what was not considered a threat. that is essentially a manipulation of the first amendment. right now we have a really on august 12 for white civil rights. it is quoted in there that this is our effort to game the system. so you can game the first amendment to some extent. the platform on which it occurs his social media. the way you can tweak it is through terms of service agreements. so they have been delegated the responsibility of the government has pushed -- it is difficult to understand. we all hear what each other says, we're all interconnected. degrees ofut six

separation, it is actually minimize now. when we look at facebook, we are all about four steps away from each other. so everything we say resonates but when you study who we are talking about and the intersection of those pathways, they are cluster. so how do you use free expression to engage in dialogue when nobody that disagrees with each other is talking to each theirin extremists are in own accor chambers? it is understandable the terms of service efforts are to take down, remove content. i'm not so sure it won't make the problem worse. of it needs to be thought holistically, you can take him content where possible but you have to realize that migration and other phenomenon will sustain that distance. so how do you promote engagement and dialogue? rather than shun these people and not give them a platform, not give them an opportunity to speak, engage them. give them an opportunity to

speak because that way you can push back. create a forum like this where one of the things we're planning on doing is publicizing the fact that we are engaging with far right wing extremists and putting them on a stage and allowing them to express their views to matter how hard they may be and giving an audience like you the opportunity to push back. sometimes itt that doesn't work because people are emotional. that is why we are trying to create an alternative ecosystem. we went from messaging to counter messaging, now we need something different. unless you practice what you nothing will essentially work. we need to preserve free speech by forcing dialogue with those we disagree with rather than only engaging with those we disagree -- do agree with which is what we tend to do whether we recognize it or not.

is worthwhile. we talked about dancing on the line of the first amendment. jesse tomately caused be indicted and arrested, was his colleague threatened rtrey stone and matt specifically online and said "you should do to them what theo van gogh" .hose throat was slit frankly, the enterprising district in virginia, found the legal route to prosecute that. and his groupse who had bedeviled the attorney's

office and eastern new york. -- we have seen how mark zuckerberg has turned himself into a pretzel in the last 42-78 hours on the holocaust issue. terms of service in the first amendment is for the types of threats we are talking about and it is probably a line too far. i know the germans have a law against restricting discussion of the holocaust as well as in france, about much stricter rhythm of speech lines. silicone gone to the valley and try to push for content to be taken down. we are seeing more of that now but more needs to be done. that is one of the points in the paper. terms of service is probably the most elegant way to do it because you as a company as a platform gets to determine the rules by which everyone's place.

host: thank you for sticking with us to the very end. i went to ask you to join me in thanking our guests for an interesting discussion that covered radicalization, countering violent extremism, u.s. constitution, and i think there are few things we did not at least touch on here. so thank them both for coming here. [applause] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2018]

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