10:00, cory booker and john federman. more from the conference with elizabeth worn, kamala harris and deborah holland. next week in prime time, c-span, c-span.org, and the c-span radio app. host: since 1985 health care for the homeless in downtown maryland has provided services to that community. many of those services health-care related. city, the state of maryland, and the federal response. elijah cummings serves the seventh district including baltimore. good morning. guest: good morning.

host: could you give us your personal assessment of the federal response? beene federal response has weak. very anemic. thatwe consider the fact the trump administration has this crisis 2015 cost the american people $500 billion in that one year, it has only gotten to be more costly over subsequent years. it is clear we are not doing .nough we have 10% of people who need treatment for this disease.

i emphasize disease. that is ridiculous. but we done a few things have only nibbled around the affects something that themost every single one of districts in our country. drug addiction has no boundaries. it has no boundaries with regard to race, color or creed. republican, democrat. it seems to me we ought to be doing more. it should be a bipartisan effort. host: on president trump sign toutedl this year, they

$4 billion made for the opioid crisis. what do you think of that figure? how does that break down? that: when you consider amount of money for an entire country, that money is not just being spent for treatment. a large portion is being used , preventionrcement and other things associated with drug addiction. and the problems that stem from it. that 4 billion is not enough. act, whatl, the care for is aying to aim sustained and predictable line of funding. very important.

of0 billion over the course 10 years. that is $100 billion per year. that is very important. host: more about the care act from elijah cummings. if you want to talk about the , all others,nse 202, 7 48, 8002. act, can you explain about that? guest: you were talking about before, the $4 billion in the omnibus bill. do,, what we have tried to we have looked at crises in the past and said we did have the hiv-aids crisis.

how did we resolve that? there were similar problems with regard to hiv-aids. where a stigma was attached. we had many people suffering and dying. we had many people who could not get certain treatments. certain point the treatments were far from the effective treatments we have today. back then we have people lacking a lot of wraparound services. what we did here, if we were able to resolve this with the rhine white act, and change the course of things with regard to hiv-aids, perhaps we can do

something similar here with regard to the opioid crisis and drug crisis. a lot of people are suffering. our bill we paralleled with ryan white. we think that it is an effective and efficient way to address this monumental problem. we saw bipartisan efforts. what republicans are reaching out and aligning yourself and supporting it? >> i think there are a lot of republicans. 80 sponsors in the house. we are waiting for republican colleagues to join us. i'm sure they will.

a very difficult opioid problem. districts-- you have like in west virginia. you have them here in baltimore. representatives whose constituents are suffering. in our country would hundred 75 people per day who are overdosing. that is a lot of people. dying fromle a year drug-related illnesses. people, then those who died in iraq and the vietnam war. eventually, because the

problem is getting worse, because we have a comprehensive on.others will come i don't think any member of congress wants to see their constituents suffer. i think that the republicans will be joining us. representative elijah cummings joining us. >> i have to tell you, i'm let down with the performance of you and the democrats. majority of the people dying are dying from overdoses. opioids have affected people. illicit drugs come in from mexico. you democrats are trying to put up a wall to stop this in legal drugs as much is possible.

you don't care. inegal immigrants sneak drugs. you don't care. you had all these immigrants come in who take jobs yet the black population, they are americans. host: we will keep it at the topic at hand. go ahead. respect, asall due i said, it is sad to say, we have -- this has no boundaries. you have a situation where whites, blacks, it doesn't matter. urban. suburban. drugs have penetrated our society to a great degree. one of the things that we need desire fort off the

drugs. when you have 10% of people who , that is 10%blem out of 100 that are being treated adequately because we don't have the resources. it is hard to cut off the desire for these drugs. folks blame a lot of about all kinds of things. -- they don'tre even know they are in pain. are in many instances trying to mitigate their pain. we have seen over and over again , people who have gotten treatment that is effective and efficient are able to reemerge

into society and become and takee participants care of their families. understand your feelings , i'm trying to make sure we deal with all drugs. cocaine and all the others. we have opioids. go ahead. caller: thank you for taking time to be on the show today. a very important topic. a two-part statement, what is , byculpability of pharma which they misled everybody drugs,onally with their

they knew it was more than it is now and they misled everybody. what is the culpability to that company? .2, what is congress going to do ? i liken it to people, cigarette companies, executives lying back in the late 1980's. , whatllout we are paying responsibility do they take? anybody, except your colleagues bringing this to the floor. host: thank you. go ahead. guest: the culpability. i think they are very culpable.

theseof this is about major pharmaceutical companies. it has been a phenomenal amount of money in lobbying. new about the dangers of these drugs. counties intain west virginia. we have heard a lot about them. population.ll a phenomenal amount of opioids. that doesn't happen by accident. questions to your next . both questions are good. thatoping and praying democrats will take back the house.

if i am honored to have the opportunity to be the chair of , i wantsight committee to do exactly what has been done with regard to the cigarette producers. i want to bring in pharmaceutical companies. and basically present them to havemerican people, and them put up their right hands, swear they're going to tell the truth and address the issues just like we address them with regard to cigarettes. a hold of this and bring those folks in. i'm not saying this from a political standpoint. it is a fact. when we have tried to bring in pharmaceutical companies, we some limited operation.

.e can do more i personally am committed to doing that. a lot of people ask why you feel so strongly about this? seen in my i have community and all over the havery people who andumbed to this illness their lives destroyed. not only have their lives been destroyed, but their families lives have been destroyed. that thes something trump administration itself than $500costing more billion per year to address. one thing we have not talked about is the issue of child care

. when people become drug addicted a lot of times they give up on their responsibility to take care of their children. in many instances they are incapable. stateuts a burden on the because then we have to provide more foster care and child care. today's form we are having is one where we will explore those issues and find out how did people become addicted? find out what treatments worked effectively, and try to make sure we are well educated as to put is going on so we can forth legislation and make the care act even better to address the issues that we find. host: our guest represents

baltimore. elijah cummings joining us for this conversation. hairy, pennsylvania, you are next. caller: how are you doing? i had 23 surgeries. i have had a lot of addictions to opiates. when they used to be called percocet, they were easy to get off of. once they turned to the oxycontin, i was not able to get off of them. you, is there a product which is legal in countries of romania in czechoslovakia. i have seen it online. it not legal in the united states? guest: i don't know.

i can tell you one thing, there is concern that insurance companies a lot of times will only pay for certain types of drugs. this particular drug, i'm not sure. we need to look into that. a situation where there are drugs that are -- that that areeen using effective painkillers. a lot of times unfortunately, they are cheaper. a lot of times those drugs are not prescribed. there is unfortunately a relationship between the doctor

and the pharmaceutical companies . the doctors are prescribing the -- drugsnsive than that are effective. they could deal with a much cheaper alternative. we will look into that. talked about the work of the trump administration on this effort. we had a viewer ask about the previous administration. what they did. theyou talk about how tackled this? guest: i think the obama ofinistration spent a lot effort with regard to the affordable care act. a lot of people don't know this the affordable care act is one which provided medicaid funding for folks.

also scores that open the door for a lot of people who would not be able to get drug treatment to get it. fundingof that medicaid , many people right here, it is now a position where before there was no way for them to get adequate treatment and they are able to get it. in theout putting a dent population that needed care, with regard to drug treatment, this is a prime example where i'm sitting here now. administration, under the affordable care act, we have a situation where a lot geteople have been able to

the wraparound services they need it. to president obama did a lot address the problem. some states still have not accepted the opportunities to add thousands and thousands of patients, mosty needy constituents to the medicaid rolls. -- he will go down in history as having done a phenomenal bit addressing that problem for the affordable care act. republicans have tried everything in their power to destroy the affordable care act but again, a lot of people are benefiting from it. if there is a reduction in medicaid, that means a lot of

people will not be able to get treatment they need. good morning. i own a business where the opioid epidemic is raging. i have a couple of questions. i think the problem is because we have swayed away from the original hippocratic oath where we were supposed to heal with food and doctors and pharmaceutical companies have to take the lead making sure that they invest in research on how we can go back to utilizing food to heal. my question is, harrow we looking at the individuals affected in the past about these opioid drugs, in my neighborhood

, andre doing 10-30 years they were addicts but may be had drugs to heal their disease. do? do we how are we looking to those people who are incarcerated now in this situation? host: thank you. guest: sir, i i am very concerned about them to. when we think about like colorado, where people are buying marijuana on television, you can see them buying it every day. on the other hand, you come to other states and people are being arrested for it. we know that marijuana has been known to be a gateway drug.

and so, you do have a lot of people who are serving time in prison for usually the sale of drugs. doing someted significant criminal justice reform before the trump administration came along and basically, a lot of that got slowed down or eamon -- even brought to a halt. we have to go back and look at the situation for what it is. your point is so significant because one of the biggest problems with regard to this addiction situation is that a lot of people feel -- still see it as a personal failing. do with ahing to person's personal failings.

in many instances, because they have been facing difficult situations and it may be a trait that runs through their family, and they begin to use these drugs. they become addicted and we don't see it as a disease. we see it as the person failed to do something. not only that, failed to take responsibility. then, not only that, we punish them for their illness. some kind of way, we have got to move away from that and treat it as such. you are right, we need to go back, we need to revisit the situation because there are so many people who have been treated unfairly and they are sitting in our prisons right now. they have not gotten the effective treatment they needed,

and we have to address that, and we will. are the seconds district of maryland, the ranking member of the committee on government and oversight, elijah cummings joining us. we thank you for your time. guest: thank you. host: coming up, we will get the perspective of first responders and how they particularly react and respond when it comes to dealing with opioid addiction. joining us will be the interim police commissioner of baltimore, gary tuggle, alongside the fire chief of baltimore, niles ford. one more interview to show you. fromuests are appearing there, and are discussing care for those addicted to opioids. >> is a primary care provider at ialth care for the homeless,

treat patients every day experiencing opioid use disorder. i provide care in our stabilization program, so that someone who has come in and self identified they would stop -- they would like to stop using he roin, and they get transferred to a weekly group, a medication assisted group. i have a group where i see 10 to 15 patients in the midst of trying to quit using opiates. after they have stabilized, three to six months, they get transitioned into our maintenance program. that is run by the primary care providers and is integrated into our primary care clinic. i also treat patients in that context. they are coming in every 30 days and we are making sure they are doing well, maintaining not using opiates, and that is

actually -- we do not have an end date for when someone is on opioid maintenance treatment. just like with any other chronic illness, we will continue to treat you as long as you show up. something onk with the mobile side of it, the mobile clinic. tell us about that work. what are you seeing? >> we go to different sites around baltimore city and in baltimore county, we go to shelters and soup kitchens. we often have folks coming for health care. we often find folks are using heroin, and i can offer them to start suboxone which is the beginning of the treatment we start here. then they can get into treatment here to get the full scope of

services we offer here, such as mental health, primary care, addiction. we do primary care in the mobile clinic but them addiction -- the addiction is mostly here. of an uptick are you seeing with prescribing medication? >> i do not know if there has been an uptick, but had has been very prevalent. there are constantly people coming in to use suboxone, and i have been doing it for two years. the opioid crisis has been going on for a while. i see more fentanyl now. , andnyl is quite dangerous that is what is driving the increase in overdose rates. >> there are lots of people who feel like, i don't want my kids to read stories that are sad, disturbing, downbeat, whatever. that is not a totally

illegitimate thing to say, i went to choose -- want to choose as apparent when my kids understand stuff that might bring them grief. then there comes a point, they are 14 now, when are you going to introduce them to the idea that not everything is perfect outside of your all-white suburb? all of those factors swirled together to create the dumpster fire. >> science-fiction writer cory doctorow will be our guest on sunday, august 5 at 3:00 p.m. eastern, discussing his latest book, "walk away." interact with cory doctorow by phone, twitter, or facebook. our special series, in-depth, fiction addition, with cory doctorow, sunday, august 5 live from noon until 3:00 p.m. eastern.

>> "washington journal" continues. host: south baltimore is where guests are appearing from today, as desperate a specific -- facility known as help to the homeless. we are taking a look at the opioid crisis. we have heard the city perspective, the federal perspective, and the state perspective. in a couple of minutes, we will get a first responder perspective. we want to continue on with calls before that. let's start with woody in she can. -- michigan. give us your perspective on the opioid crisis. caller: i have lost several friends and have known several people that have died from opioids. we have had two doctors from this small community that have been arrested and one has been sent to prison, the other one is going to court for opioids,

prescribing opioids. most of these people that are nowg from heroi b in that fentanyl, most of them were addicted to prescription opioids. i wonder why politicians keep saying that marijuana is the gateway, when all the research shows otherwise and it is prescription pills causing these people to go to heroin and fentanyl. there has been a lot of research that shows, from john hopkins school of medicine, the rand corporation, the american journal of internal medicine, shows that the states that have medical marijuana have a large reduction of opioid deaths. think that going after the prescribers of these

medications, that is a good first start? do you think that is somewhere to go when it comes to starting with this? caller: somebody needs to educate them. i know they went to school for many years to be doctors, but they are not taught about the benefits of medical marijuana. when you go to the doctor, there is no insurance companies that cover any medical marijuana. there is no resources for people that want to get off opioids and use medical marijuana. they are pretty much tied into whatever their insurance company will pay for. the first thing that happens is they prescribed opioids. host: that is woody in michigan, joining us for this conversation. of two firstve responders when it comes to the opioid crisis, they are joining us from the health care -- homeless health care facility.

we are joined by gary tuggle and niles ford. thank you both for joining us today. guest: good morning. guest: good morning. host: give us the perspective of a law enforcement officer and someone who works in the fire, emt space, when dealing with this opioid crisis. guest: the crisis we are going through is undoubtedly the worst drug crisis in the country's history. if you look back to the other dry crises, particularly as it relates to opioids, you go to epidemic and fast-forward to the 1980's where we had a major problem with crack cocaine. this epidemic has a feeder system the other two did not have, they use and abuse of opioids. baltimore is generally a town of generational opioid abuse, but

when you couple that misuse, you find eight out of town first to beingin users admit opioid users. host: go ahead. guest: from a fire, ems standpoint it has been a challenge. we are dealing with, just like the commissioner said, we are dealing with an unprecedented level of abuse, of addiction to these medications. effect toing a huge the community at large, and quite frankly, the resources of the responders. our folks are well-trained and they are excellent practitioners of the services, but it is tough. effect,using a great not just to the responders but also to the community as a whole. host: our guests joining us to

talk about this first responder perspective, if you want u.s. them questions, (202) 748-8000 for those of you impacted with opioids. (202) 748-8001 for first responders. (202) 748-8002 for all others. chief ford, when someone is called out on an opioid related case, walk us through what happens typically on that call. guest: what normally happens is they respond to the call. upon arrival, they assess the individual. they evaluate their level of consciousness and the severity of the situation by evaluating the airway, their ability to breathe and circulation. then they go through a certain set of protocols established by maryland ems. those protocols more often than not include the use of narcan.

subsequently, they are either transported to the hospital or they are transported to a stabilization center that has recently started here under our mayor and dr. win. host: how many of these calls would you estimate now, daily calls, how many deal with opioid related incidents? ,uest: we deal with normally certainly much greater than 20 or 30 or 40 calls per day. it depends. monthly,s even weekly, even per hour, depending on circumstances and depending on the drugs that have found their way into the system. it is a challenge. host: commissioner, talk a little bit about your side of it , particularly for those who distribute illicit drugs. what is the strategy for the city? guest: the strategy is

identifying those groups that have not only become involved in heroin and fentanyl distribution, but the ones that incorporate high levels of violence. we see almost every day heroin and fentanyl dealers become involved in violence as a result of territorial disputes or retaliations. we are laser focused on both sides of the equation, the violence as the opioid distribution. host: when it comes to the supplies, are these largely coming in from outside of the state? guest: absolutely. we work with our federal partners every day. the dea and other state and local agencies, to track those groups that are trafficking heroin and fentanyl into baltimore. heroin is not created here and fentanyl is not created here, so

the need for law enforcement to laser focused on reduce the level of supply is still there, but is only one part of the equation. there are two other parts, a need for enhanced treatment capacity throughout the country and prevention. if we can prevent people from using, that is a force multiplier for law enforcement. host: our guests are here to give us a first responder perspective on this issue. let's start with colorado, this is marie. good morning. go ahead. caller: good morning. thanks to our first responders. one of the things that i don't think is being talked about much, and i appreciate dr. wen's addressing the science. i wonder how much percentage of the addicts came from homes

without a father. the reason i asked that, i think that all science should be looked at, but i recently heard about research showing that -- we do have a high number of families without fathers, and i do think part of the opioid issue is having the discipline and lots ofrections discipline for lots of things in life. some of the research is showing that were not graffiti is have -- pornography is having an impact to brains similar to addiction, to drugs. that kind of thing, rather than needing more they need different. that will lead to divorce. that will break up families. there is data that shows girls who are most susceptible to becoming trapped within human trafficking are those without fathers, who have not heard and

been encouraged by their fathers. commissioner, or their societal aspects you can relate to in baltimore by what marie brings up? guest: absolutely. largely in baltimore, traditionally it has been a heroin town. to seeot unusual multiple generations in the same household become addicted to opioids, and that transcends into things like violence and domestic violence. in my 35 year law enforcement career, when you see these generationally tracked issues, there needs to be an interceding event to break that up. whether that is parenting or enhanced parenting, those things are certainly important. host: how much of this is coming from the medicine cabinets of families within the city? guest: let me just say that the kitchen used to be the most dangerous room in the house.

that is no longer the case. it is now the medicine cabinet. we have to encourage families to get these prescription opioids out of their homes as quickly as possible once they no longer have a need. there is another aspect to it, and that is the overprescribing of these dangerous and highly addictive opioids. wen: chief, we heard dr. talk about access to medications like narcan and the supply. what is your concern about your access to those supplies? how readily available are they to you and those who serve in baltimore? guest: at this point, we have a very good supply. we ordered well ahead, and we order a different level of the medication that is used in the general population. milligrams whereas

normally if someone from the community comes in and purchases it, it would be four milligrams. we are doing pretty well with our cache of narcan and naloxone. that for the most part has not been a challenge, but i wanted to address something marie said, if you don't mind. one of the things i think our folks have noticed in the city of baltimore is that -- and i'm certainly not doing scholarly research, this is based upon practitioner perspective from our people -- that is that opiates are not the same as maybe crack cocaine was in the 1980's, early 1990's, where it hit the urban communities. opioid addiction has no bias. if you go all through our community, whether it be mildly

affluent are affluent areas, everyone is being impacted. if you don't have somebody in your family, you have somebody you know. it has been nonbiased. i don't care if you have two parents, one parent, or no parent. it has been extremely aggressive. i would like to compare to some of the things that happened during the crack epidemic, but it is a lot more potent than what we doubt within. host: randy is in maryland. you are on with our guests. caller: good morning. i would like to express thanks to everybody who is fighting for the united states, especially our first responders. and it isuestion, based on -- i have lived in maryland my whole life. i would like to know, how do you feel about the opioid epidemic?

do you feel it has gotten worse in the last 20 years due to opiate orders? host: commissioner? guest: open borders, no. , as ak what happened country, we have an insatiable appetite for drugs, illicit and illicit. we need to take -- licit. we need to take a fundamental approach to how we release -- decrease the demand. as long as there is a demand, drug groups will try to meet it. we are seeing some of the highest or the levels for of levels ofurity fentanyl and the lowest prices. .ost: commissioner, i apologize we are going to hand you a microphone so you can be

directly into that. well you get yourself situated, chief, i want to ask you, you served as the fire chief in lincoln, nebraska. did you see starts of this in that area, before you came to the city of baltimore? guest: no, not in this way. drug issues in other cities i have worked at have been completely different. full the -- fulton county, i was the deputy chief. we did not deal with opioid overdoses. more or less, we dealt with cocaine and things of that nature. this is a whole different animal , certainly for my profession, since i have come to baltimore. it is not new. quite frankly, even though it has been historic in baltimore, it has gone well beyond where we are. it is countrywide.

i did have some issues in lincoln where we did deal with it, but it was not certainly is concentrated as baltimore. host: commissioner, go ahead with your thought. guest: i was saying that the question related specifically to open borders, and what i was saying is that has less to do with it than the fact that this country has an insatiable appetite for drugs, licit and illicit drugs. if you look at where we are as a country with respect to purity levels of heroin, we are seeing some of the highest purity at the lowest price. that is dangerous. you throw on top of that a huge influx of fentanyl. as long as that level of demand is there, john trafficking groups from all over the world will try to fill it. -- drug trafficking groups from all over the world will try to fill it. caller: just had a quick question for the commissioner.

can you hear me? host: go ahead. caller: commissioner, in baltimore city, you are the commissioner for baltimore city pd. there are several areas that have become economic hubs, and it has become magnets for drug dealers. like park heights avenue where you have an officer sitting there, he just sits in the car. in the school zone, drug dealers up there every single day, same drug dealers. what is your strategy and your plan to take care of these areas? host: thanks. guest: so first of all, those area commanders are well aware of the problematic areas within their districts. the mission and direction to

those commanders is clear -- fixed it. it.ix as we identify those groups, we will have them charged through the state system or have them charged federally. this has to stop, without a doubt, and we will use every legal means at our disposal. host: our guest, acting commissioner of baltimore, has a long career from serving in the dea. talk from that hat about what you are seeing, and what is the federal role as far as the dea's work in assisting what you do in the city? guest: the federal government plays a huge role. our federal partners, we are talking almost every day. we are meeting almost as frequently. they bring a lot to the table. we have to look at the threat that drug trafficking truly poses, not just to the city but to our way of life.

do, folkss well as i that are involved in the throes of substance use disorder find soreally hard to function, at the end of the day it goes to their quality of life. it is hard to have a decent quality of life when you are in the throes of substance use disorder. host: organic is next, hello -- oregon is next, hello. caller: it sounds like everyone wants to throw the baby out with the bathwater. i have had rheumatoid arthritis going on 20 years and the only medication that works is methadone and some other opioids. , it i go to the pharmacist takes me almost two hours. i have to prove i have norton -- narcan, and i have never come

close to abusing any of my medication. i know i am probably a small percentage, but do you know how dealan get a good boy type to say, i have not misused my stuff and i do not go through all this other stuff? are you guys just blanket, get rid of everything so that people that really do need this kind of medication can still get it? i am afraid i'm not going to be able to have it and be back to where he was before this medication come through. host: if any of you guests in baltimore want to respond. guest: i will respond. i think that the way the government or the state has to go about this, we have to be deliberate. there are people that have long ranging illnesses like cancer and things like that, that they need this medication.

it is not a luxury for them, it is a must for them to function. my father was one of them before he passed away. it is a medication that needs to be used. said earlier, she is concerned about the prescribing of it in unnecessary and overabundant ways. becomees people to possibly addicted to that medication, because it is so easily addictive. as the commissioner said, when people become addicted to the prescription medication and cannot get it any longer, the challenge we have is that in the streets it is so cheap to get. consequently, they move from the prescription side to getting it out in the streets. back to your original question, there has to be deliberate efforts to make sure that people like yourself, who absolutely order to medication in live a quality of life, have access to that medication.

understand that there is a lot of intentional diversion of these prescription opioids throughout the country. that has contributed significantly to the problems we are facing with respect to this epidemic. you asked about what other role the federal government can play. we really need to focus a lot more on those practitioners, those folks that are intentionally diverting these prescription opioids for profit. host: i will ask both of you a question posed on twitter -- does the commissioner in chief believe making drugs legal would help with the cartels and take the illegal process at of sales? guest: no, absolutely not. the ability to undercut drug trafficking groups by legalizing drugs simply is not there, but there is another piece to that as well. when you recognize how addictive drugs are, and the absolute

detriment that it does to our country in terms of the social, economic costs, and then loss of, just a moral fiber to our country, legalizing drugs across the board is a mistake. host: including the legalization of marijuana? guest: when i will say about the legalization of marijuana is, i don't know and i think science has to say whether or not there is a recognized medical need for marijuana. i am not a scientist. there is people who are a lot smarter than i am who do this stuff for a living so i would defer to them. host: chief, go ahead. guest: i would have challenges with supporting legalization of fat now, think -- fentanyl, things like that. i have seen the destructive nature of that to the community, to the families. i would probably want to be one of the people who would march in the streets against that.

i am not speaking for marijuana or anything like that. i have seen the opiate overdose problem, that opioid addiction issue, quite frankly, in 3-d. probably be right next to the commissioner trying to make sure that does not happen. host: with both of your perspective, describe the worst call you have ever been on with respect to opioids. chief, you go first. guest: it had more to do with a member of my organization than anything. he became addicted and consequently started using opioids and started using drugs. that is the one that comes to basically, because he -- our job is a stressful job and that wound up being a crutch for him. that is the one that comes to mind first. host: commissioner? guest: probably the worst thing

i have seen is the number of overdoses that we are seeing with respect to -- or overdose victims with respect to opioids getting younger and younger. when i see kids as young as 13 or 14 years old overdosing from opioids, it really hurts you across the board. the sad part of that is trying to figure out, will that child ever recover from that addiction? it is a very hard addiction to recover from. host: jason in maryland on our line for others. hi. caller: how are you doing? there is a couple of things i am seriously missing from the conversation. a lot of it has to do with inner-city economic status. there is a lot of people there who are in poverty. stress levels from poverty alone, like the guy just said, a

guy that had a stressful job and it pushed him into using drugs. most people's lives are so stressful that they need an escape. that is not a copout, that is basic facts. i have been in and out of mental institutions myself because of stress and anxiety. what most people do not understand, if you do not have the proper tools to deal with stress and anxiety, you will look for ways out. some people deal with it with food, alcohol, tobacco, and some people go to other drugs because it is not fixing the issue. when the commissioner said that legalizing drugs when not help with the cartels, that is an absolute farce. back when alcohol was prohibition, we had a crazy amount of deaths when it came to illegal alcohol. when they legalized it, you can have regulations.

people stopped going blind from alcohol. people stopped getting murdered from bootlegging. host: got the point. commissioner, go first. guest: i go back to that socioeconomic cost associated with the drugs used today. that tost my opinion legalize drugs across the board is going to help with that, it just won't. again, folks that are in the throes of substance use disorder have a decreased quality of life. their ability to contribute to society, productively to society, is lost. family structure, the ability to earn a living is hampered. i cannot tell you the number of engineers and doctors and professional people who are in the throes of an opioid addiction right now but just cannot function.

again, i'm going to have to disagree and agree to disagree. that is not the answer. host: chief ford? guest: part of what you said, i understand. it kind of speaks back to what dr. wen said, when she said that addiction, there should not be a stigma attached to addiction because it can happen to anyone, anywhere. that part, i understand and agree with. i think that, from my perspective -- and i'm not speaking as a scholar, only as a practitioner -- someone would have to do more research than what i am getting ready to say, to compare tobacco and alcohol to opiates is a stretch for me because after one smoke of a cigarette i am not necessarily addicted. after one sip of alcohol or even a couple shots of alcohol, i may not be addicted.

opiates appear to be a whole different animal. it appears to be more seductive as far as dragging people in more easily and them becoming addicted more easily. it is a challenge for me to make that leap. i have had the opportunity to commissionertuggle said,missioner tuggle people not struggling economically succumbing to this issue. i struggle with that concept. host: here is calvin in ohio. caller: i would like to just clear the air about this drug epidemic. they flooded all the ghettos with this heroin under richard nixon.

they even have laws on the books in chicago where the black riots,s, if they had they had this on the books, they can flood the ghetto with heroin . got so pervasive, the white kids started using it. -- that isey started when they started, we have got to stop this here. it happened again under ronald reagan with crack cocaine. it was all in the ghetto and the inner-city. soon it spread out to the white neighborhood and white kids was losing their jobs. host: got you. let me take the point, how would your suburban counterparts, what

would they tell you or what are they telling you about opioid addiction and how they are facing it, compared to the city? peers allspeak to our the time and they are dealing with the same struggles we are. as i said earlier, this is not a hit or miss based on society, area code, or zip code. this drug has been a gunshot to us, a shotgun approach. all of us are struggling with it and trying to make sure that we help people, and make sure that people survive. said, we need to make sure people make it another day so we can help them find help. host: commissioner? guest: i agree with the chief, this is a crisis of epic proportions that deserves a like response. host: from washington, d.c., we

hear from joy. caller: i am here in washington, d.c., and we have the same problems in maryland. i see the police and fire department writing -- riding around all day long picking up people who have overdosed and i do not see mental health people. i have a serious problem with that. we spend our taxpayer dollars for them to get beautiful cars but they need to use those cars to talk to mental health people. they do not need to be out 9:00 to 5:00, they need to be out 24 hours a day like the police and fire people are. host: chief, you go first. guest: one of the things under this mayor, we have worked hard to cross pollinate. -- literally have partnerships and meet daily on many things, and this is one of them. one of the things that the mayor has really draw major initiated

is a 24 hour -- drum major initiated as a 24 hour city. we are already into the middle of that right now. host: commissioner? said, weat the chief have homeless outreach teams that are assigned to the police department. then our law enforcement assisted diversion programs, where we have police officers who are trained to deal with folks in the throes of mental health crisis, but also folks that are trained to deal with our citizens that are in the throes of these substance use disorders. it is something that is a priority for us. it is something that is a priority for the mayor. as the police chief, we are going to execute that mission. host: one more call from texas, franco, go ahead.

caller: i would like to make a comment about the cdc and the dhhs inflating the numbers of deaths by opiates, as mentioned in the huffington post last year. fail to see,tlemen there are so many people who have legitimate pain and have been taking opiates for a number of years, and if you take this away from people having legitimate pain i guarantee they will go to the streets and get drugs they are not used to, such as fat now and heroin -- fentanyl and heroin, because no one deserves to live with pain. host: we will take that last call for both of these gentlemen to give final thoughts. guest: there is a misnomer to our reference, and that is that we want to take these awayations, these opioids

from people that have legitimate medical need. that could not be further from the truth. we recognize there are citizens in this country, citizens in baltimore that have a legitimate medical need for these opioids, and they should have them, have that access. we also have to recognize the fact that the misuse and abuse of these opioids has caused an epidemic in this country, the likes of which we have never seen before. we have to respond in that way. host: chief ford? guest: i do not know that i could have said it better than my commissioner -- my friend, the commissioner said. the misnomer is, we are not against the use of opioids. we know there are people that use them -- need them. we are against the misuse of them because of what we wind up seeing out in the streets. we know, and we are very aware of that. inrun on people every day pain that take these medications

and need this medication, but we are concerned about the ability of people misusing it and consequently causing detrimental issues to their lives, to the community, to their families. agree with that caller. we do not disagree. host: we have been joined by niles ford, fire chief for baltimore city police department and gary tuggle, acting police chief in baltimore. thank you for joining us. guest: thank you very much. host: we will finish out our program, the guests being done from baltimore, maryland. many thanks for them hosting us today. we want to finish off with your calls, your view of the opioid crisis. we have a line for those impacted by the opioid crisis and others.

about 15 minutes before the house comes in for its pro forma session, bill is from haines city, florida. you are no longer on with our guests, but give your perspective with what you are seeing. caller: my perspective is that it is basically a weapon of mass distraction. no matter how you put it, the only way to stop it is for the government to arrest the people who are making it, put them in jail, because they are murderers. what did our country do before this product was available to the public? we had other means of pain suppression. i think that people need to toughen up a little bit, because the drug, if we quit making it, we could end the perpetual death , continually. people do not need the drugs. there are so many other things they can use, and i understand that people have pain.