competence 2 and the house on c-span. >> on c-span next week in prime presidentsy, former george w. bush and bill clinton on lessons from a life in politics. tuesday, nasa administrator jim on president trump's proposal to create a military space force. wednesday, the 2018 national governors association summer meeting on transformation of the workforce by artificial intelligence. thursday at 10:00 p.m., the netroots conference from new jersey senatorw corey booker and pennsylvania lieutenant gubernatorial candidate john fedderman. and friday, more from the netroots conference with warren, andzabeth new mexico candidate deborah holland. time onk in prime c-span, c-span.org and with the app.c-span radio >> coming up next, a discussion

with a former self-described jihadist who worked with the former new york city intelligence officer responsible for having him arrested. be done about what can to combat violent extremism at this event hosted by the senator strategic and international studies. it's about an hour. >> great group on monday morning. thanks for coming. we've got a great event today. know we've got a few people trickling in. before we start, i had a few comments. first is welcome to the center for strategic and international studies. jones, i'm the director of the transnational theats project at csis and harold brown chair. is available on the website. we've had recent publications on everything from hezbollah in syria to -- we'll u.s.a broader report on counterterrorism that will be

published later this week. other comments, as well. we don't expect any emergencies, one,ust in case we have we've got exits in the back at multiple locations. them to the right of the stage as you're facing it. in general, the rendezvous point for emergencies at csis is over the national geographic museum, which is located right haven'tr and if you been over to their current exhibits, they are fantastic as so i'm not being paid to say that, but they're -- they're including programs, the titanic exhibit over there. also, wanted to thank the folks the transnational threats project for all the work they've from maxthis, marcusson up front to charlie clayton whock and are helping, as well. we're going to do the

q&a is you will notice there are on your seat. we have a couple of people that up those cards after the initial discussion is over, and then we'll move into a q&a here, but at any point, if you have questions, please write them down. charlie, do we have nick or clayton here in the room right now? okay. and i'll point to them when mitch is actually done with his introductory remarks. so i'm really happy to have a discussion today on the unmaking of jihaddism, the current effort to combat violent extremism. we have mitch silver, the cofounder of the guardian group. mitch is both a practitioner nypd andhis work at also an author. his book on al-qaeda johns hopkins

counterinsurgency and classes.rrorism and jesse morton the founder and of parallel networks. we'll get into a range of issues andrding extremism counterextremism during the period.on and the q&a so thank you very much for coming and i'm going to go ahead and sit down and we're going to the mike. thanks. >> okay so what i would like to do is just begin by turning to a really's got interesting background and ask you if you can explain the origins jesse of revolution your eventualn transition.

involvement,nal and then your transition, and then i want to go to mitch for thisof the other side of because you were -- for a chunk of years, you were sitting on side.posite >> so revolution muslim was probably the very first organization in the united to unabashedly promote theaeda and jihadism on streets of new york essentially, but we were one of the first experiment -- we initiated in about 2007. transition from social media 1.0 to social media 2.0. the firste of organizations to experiment with orientedsocial media performs, such as youtube, facebook, twitter. until 2011.2007 i started the organization as an attending who was columbia university school of affairs andl public attempting to operate in two

realms. morton my birthday and the other under my aadopted islamic name. we partened with a jamaican cleric who was responsible for radicalizing people and had a tradition in britain. to jamaica where he expressed an interest in his perspective. one an orthodox jew who had converted, tw went to join the palestinians and had returned to city where we operated he gave us an interesting dynamic at the core of our a character you had preacher having been educated in saudi arabia. you had me with the political was able to frame the narrative in a way that

revolutionary politics, if you will, and then we had our third colleague, who a reputation online that was somewhat viral, that was able to push back and become what we clown.basically the he was able to antagonize the right wing, for example, the to exploitc crowd, that so that they could point to us as an organization that was calling for the implementation of sharia in the united states and an individual who could get on fox news at any given time by provocative.ng we had a template that evolved over time. partnered with people to formulate the very first english jihadist magazine and set a011, we really template upon which jihadist evolved since. mediast the use of social

where i was living, expecting to ultimately be indicted by the u.s. government, which ended up being the case. while i was there i started a process of deradicallization. i lived there in the beginning the arab bring. was motivated by the fact that i teaching people english and people economic and that sort of

fell flat because it was very irrational. make sense and that's view recognized that my views -- what this person that this was the person responsible for making interruption in the

captions] >> i was held in solitary there was afor -- solitary --elt significant --significant --

ultimately when i took a plea -- with a female fbi agent that me empathy but was also at the same time able to advocate for me to potentially asset as somebody that could help the government going forward. forward, some of the students of revolution muslim ended up traveling to syria. we were able to track and were able to -- at that time, it was the beginning -- obama had released implementation plan for the development of c ve. and throughout all of this with the fbi i found again that they were not waging a war, a black-and-white war against islam, but that they were primarily concerned with terrorism -- of

due to my cooperation and i was of 2015.in march operate as and to informant and an analyst. went public as america's first we'll startist --

there. my role at nypd was as director intelligence analysis so i cadre of civilian analysts running investigations city. york during that period from 2006 to most probably the complicated and challenging investigation was that of revolution muslim and that of jesse morton who led that organization. to 2011, think of me if you can with .esse as leonardo in the u.k. there's a group

in speaking with the u.k. security services, time thaton the you're speaking to them, they would say 25 to 30% of u.k. citizens who have gone on to join al-qaeda or some other jihadist organization spent at time there. so we understood that in new a version of had that, first the islamic society, more extremisms splinter organization, wereution muslim, we highly concerned about that. and at nypd we were fortunately an undercoveron nypd officer in revolution and, in fact, as the i.t. he knew what so jesse was having for breakfast most days. however, it was very difficult jesse was frankly, a savvy operator. he knew where the line was in of first amendment and he was quite circumspect in not

crossing it. really thes he was -- one of the things we are 15 plotshere that you can trace the individuals in them being interacting with revolution muslim and it was a span. wide you've got two individuals almote from new jersey who radicalized and wanted to altia bob. you have another who was a u.s. whozen from brooklyn traveled to pakistan, to have him turned around, sent back to make no mistake his intention was to join al-qaeda. you have plots in the u.k., a attack the london stock exchange over christmas in 2009. the stabbing of an u.k.

woman,ent official by a where she attacked him for his support of the iraq war. a plot against the new josecity subway by pimentel following the instructions in how to make a bomb in the kitchen of your mom. deadlye were potentially plots around the world and all traced their origin back to revolution muslim. even had a plot in boston who wanted to use a drone to attack the pentagon. and frankly, even falcate the first issue of it had its list of enemies primary author of that magazine had been a member of revolution muslim before he left yemen and in that magazine he listed enemies of al-qaeda me whichtured triggered police protection for my two sons and wife for a nypd. of time by the so this was the assessment we were working in opposition to

the case., very much the last summer, the attack on the london bridge where it turns out one of the primary attackers was, in fact, a member of this group. and, you know, the story of nypd's fight against them hasn't about.been talked i know jesse had been released tom prison so i reached out jesse and said why don't we tell nypd versus revolution muslim and maybe more importantly how a lot of the thatrent techniques revolution muslim pioneered, english language magazines, interaction, social media interaction online are adopted by have been isis. and frankly as isis moves into virtualse of more of a caliphate, there are likely techniques that isis has adopted byt were pioneered revolution muslim that we need to look at more closely if we're going to figure out how to adequately fight a virtual caliphate.

so this partnership kicked off created or jesse created this nonprofit organization called parallel networks and the is really to do three do c.t. use formers to and cve research. number two, use these formers targeted intervention in a 15,criminal way so that 16-year-olds who haven't crossed the line to criminality but spending time on the isis thattes and going down road. and thirdly interacting with people who have gotten out of rehabilitateed to but have a c.t. background and we know there are about 100 are going to be getting out of prison the next and there in the u.s. is no formalized program to help those people. so that's a quick summary of the other part of side and where we are now. to jesse withoing a couple of questions and then back to mitch, i wanted to that they havey

cards. down,y could pass them charlie over here and nick over here can pick them up, they'll come around. so again, feel free as we're talking to write down questions. themll pick thelup, bring up to the stage and we'll read the lasts we can at part of the q&a session. two questions for you to get this started. one is can you talk a little bit thet your concept of virtual caliphate and how it is similar to the way the islamic state, when it really began in 2014, picked up pace in 15, 16, 17 and even now 18. how it -- how it differed or was similar? that, and thenth i've got a follow-up question for you. >> okay. i think it's very important to pay attention to the historical efforts tof online radicalize and recruit.

what we've seen is the development largely similar to the template that revolution beginning -- in the it was all people living in the west and espousing an ideology generalized, but when -- traveled to yemen, we case ofvery first propagandaists that were known in the west that had a western al-qaeda's narrative that appealed in many ways, much the stuff that was coming out of the middle east. now, they were embedded with weren't ablethey to say this is the ideology. they were able to show you how to act on it and one of the fundamentally fascinating things for me working as an informant in prison and creating a narrative of an individual, a prominent individual who was one of my students that traveled to syria in the beginning of this idea of a virtual caliphate is coming to the awareness that isis's propaganda, particularly when it comes to targeting westerners is not an isis export, it's a western import.

individuals that were yo affiliated and had an to make theg of how message available to those in the west were living in a safe house all together where they were concocting ways to utilize the internet, twitter beginningly in the and they've navigated and .djusted when they would take us down on youtube, we would have channel up within days. that's really the game of cat and mouse that the virtual played as we see. they are incredibly fluid and are able to adapt, as well. and so now, we have these -- this idea of the virtual entrepreneur. somebody who may have come from there, ismigrated able to articulate in english the views, but able to recruit encrypt platforms we used to use direct messaging applications

where we were able to create an appeal, individual would say they had more questions and we could engage them in conversation. couldn't tell them how to do an attack, though. them to do encourage an attack, we could facilitate a progression into action on the ideas. now, we're faced with that difficulty and we've seen it rather effective so this is the going forward with the virtual caliphate is that they can sustain without having any control.al they can sustain the idea of the caliphate. it's important to recognize that reason that so many westerners join to caliphate is because there was a scene set in the minds and in the hearts of people that were living in the west that the primary obligation muslim that's living in the west or anywhere in the world, they have an obligation to work for the caliphate so you destroy the caliphate, it is that legacy of the fact that they established of themselvesire to return it and their ability to refer back to the period of decline before and contraction before that will still serve as an appeal. toisis is essentially trying

sustain itself, particularly amongst western audiences, by migrating to different platforms to promote the ideals in the event that another safe haven opens up, but at the we see a new phenomenon of competition between jihadist organizations the ultimateto barbarity of isis and the entrance into a post-isis world where al-qaeda has been able to , where their brand was -- now,ly considered the violence is considered modern and will have a broader appeal. you have to think ahead, if not just about isis's virtual caliphate. about a virtual caliphate, with access online from anderent organizations there will probably be splinters that branch off. we see arguments even today with to who they can kill, with regard to who's a non-muslim. mutate.ings continue to it's one of the important things that's recognizable in the paper that mitch and i wrote.

to splinters are important pay attention to because these theys metastasize and metastasize into more and more of wanton violence. 30,000 people by most estimates, and then you have the organization al-qaeda which introduces an organization who now has about 1,000 followers and fulfilled some of its first attacks and they're going to there.nate the ideology we want to wait for the rise of the territorial safe haven so lag time where the territory has been -- has been dismantled, what they'll try to do is sustain themselves with the idea, but we have an opportunity to attract, particularly for our western audiences, particularly for the toted states being that isis get at the heart of how do you refute that idea now? >> so one question if i can ask you first and then go to mitch. there are a number of u.s.

policy maker makers that have ad quoting herei'm that the islamic state has been crushed, that it has been eradicated. i think a number of americans -- a while, it's been since they have -- many of a note --here's been certainly different from the british experience or the french experience over the last year or two. britain had a number of attacks, including the concert in manchester. so how would you respond to this notion that the islamic state or other groups have been either eradicated and what's your sense about the threat to u.s., either the homeland directly or overseas today? say -- and i would suggest that we've been here before. i remember when i was arrested

, we started to debate terrorhether the war on was winding down and whether it was over. that leads to an awareness that organizations, jihadist is -- the entity is one that runs on ideology. it's a movement. similar, if you will, for competition, but with regard to the threat to the that what'sthink setting in for jihadist organizations that do have a better capability to direct and attacks. we went from a phase of command and counter terrorism in the to one of leader resistance. i think now we're going back to where thesituation internet or virtual caliphate makes that possible, but i think a realization in the jihadist community that the law of diminishing returns is in and both al-qaeda and isis are aware that in order to claim or retain the mantle of

have to do an attack that sort of outdoes or rivals 9/11. think our primary concern should be with regard to some of threats of whether or not there's a capacity in the united states, which is the ultimate jihadists, which is something they are continuing to argue for. tendency to turn internal to the middle east, but we need to prioritize the head the snake. you have to look at and adjust possibility -- it's important to recognize. the very first entity that was attacked once we announced the was notn against isis an isis attack. it was an al-qaeda aligned organization that was operating inside of the syrian area that ongoing attack ready to conduct. they had a plot at least and a conduct an attack in europe that was in its last have rightt would field with regard to casualties as they saw it 9/11.

it's very important to pay attention to the fluid dynamics that evolve and the capacity to facilitate. travel toon't have to afghanistan, receive training or back.an and come now, you can literally just do encrypted platforms. it's quite dangerous. >> same question to you, mitch. isis, eradicated and your sense of the threat to the homeland or its interests overseas? >> sure. think we've been here before. u.s. government officials talked al-qaeda demise of after bin laden was taken off battlefield. and sure, there was an ebb after but ultimately, you know, there was that revival. think about the 2012 to 2014 isis stormed onto the stage in iraq. and to some degree i think are.s where we we are in that ebb in the

diagram. new physical safe haven be? unclear. will it be in libya, in parts of yemen, some place in north africa. there's no doubt the ideology is still there and frankly, makes situation maybe different from the first ebb in 2012 is the number of european foreign fighters who have returned to europe and have europe lot of time in this year in the u.k. and france and germany, i was just in austria. hot bed of isis terrorism, you wouldn't have thought. went to syria and iraq and a certain percentage have come back. think we're most likely to see the first winds of a revival in europe with foreign fighters who have returned, maybe inspiring individuals who are radicalized and haven't even traveled to syria and iraq. u.s., the target may be

overseas as well as domestic targets. and i think, you know, the fact that we have many fewer u.s. have traveled overseas to isis land and even us fewer have returned gives a certain measure of protection. andver, virtual plotters individuals who were radicalized in the west who are looking to do something can now be manipulated, can be operationalized overseas and i those are probably the things that i'm most concerned about when i look at the horizon and i agree. it's not purely isis. you have to factor in that used this time to regenerate itself in different parts of the world where they have controlled some territories, where they have merged with the local entities and the al-qaeda threat is not the table. >> so let me ask you, mitch, a question, and it's something that you guys wrote in the conclusion from revolution muslim to islamic state and that

quoting here. one reason most of the plots linked to revolution muslim were was that the nypd in your case successfully officersd undercover into the heart of both the islamic thinker society and revolution muslim. go on to say increased use of digital undercover officers and informants. your general sense in combating, countering on the and law enforcement intelligence side some of the i'mons you have seen and going to get into broader cve issues in a moment, but from the intelligence of law enforcement's standpoint, what's your sense of key lessons? the keynk one of lessons that so much of this comes down to humans. human intelligence, having the right sources placed in the right location. evolvings been an phenomenon over time.

you know, it was physical for many years, looking at the greater new york city area, but the u.s. and taking lessons from overseas. it might have been places where, was aow, you knew there radical, you know, mosque at one point in time, and then it moved it moved to a and cafe and it moved to a barber shop and those were also locations where you could have an informant or an detect clusters of people radicalizing. being online is the place where you're most likely to encounter people using a virtual safe to meet and there's pal talk, and now, it's the telegram channels. in the only way you can be those telegram channels and be able to have some chance of detecting something is by developing human assets who have interact in a way that's believable online and in new york we were fortunate to officersdre of police that were very diverse from a

country of origin perspective. have people who can speak on those arabic and be websites, on those channels in a that's believable so that they could look like the bad guys who they were trying to detect. and that's been successful. i think you know, where things have failed is we haven't had the direct human resources in locations. we think about the chelsea attack last fall in new york on the west side highway. a individual speaking to people overseas, but wasn't detected so that's why one of our conclusions was more effort, resources devoted to developing skilled operators in that space. the'm going to take opportunity to read a couple of questions. i'm going to start with the one. i think this is directed at you, jesse and i've got a few other you in a i'll ask little bit. so here's the first one from one

members.dience does parallel networks have plans to perform prison deradicalization programming in the u.s. or is civil society, to pre- andmited post-incarceration? what's your involvement or what's the network's involvement in prison deradicalization? >> so there's a bunch of fanfare particularly recently with the fact that there's 100 individuals coming home with terrorism-related offenses. we are looking into the extremism -- we're in communication with people that are set for release in the next years.of but also looking at the reentry and reintegration of individuals who have already come home and we're trying to identify mechanisms through which you can programming.ison one of the things that we will be discussing extensively going

phenomenon.his however, the problem is when you that might apply, the u.s. is incredibly unique in comparison to others. onlyve vast terrain and we have 500 people that are convicted and in prison, 400 regard toprison with terrorism-related offenses so concocting a program that would forandatory deradicalization would be incredibly problematic. you look at some of the things likeneed to be considered the communication management unit which was a model that was prisoners, isolate but you essentially create an incubator and it only takes one pool. to spoil the >> you're talking about the prisons. >> you can list innumerable cases, even just here at cases. my codefendant was in a communication management unit an was still able to publish article on a blog about the day they -- he left the prison and the on to become one of

primary propagandists on behalf of the syrian jihad here in the united states, but while he was the communication management unit he himself published an article about how people in the communication management unit asked him to teach classes. the problem is about making a mandatory program where you of thesee all terrorism-related offenders on the same block. there would be major onlyications because it takes one person who has an idology toknows the make sure those individuals do not change their beliefs. it has to be a voluntary program. we're looking at mechanisms that already exist inside the bop format, but of particular importance is developing expertise with regard to reentry.tion and that would require a government partnership with community led organizations, but there's pushback, there's complications, too, against government led cve organizations. number two there's this intuitive belief that if you partner with, for example, moderate imams, you'll be able

to change ideas. the problem is when you look at the actual outcome of the interaction of moderate imams committede that are to fundamentalism and a different interpretation of islam, you run into the problem of whether that can be counterproductive. in australia, the moderate imams delegated by the government provide reentry services. that an individual -- went downstairs, killed a receptionist and then went on to to engage in a shootout with police that injured two police officers, three days later those moderate imams distanced themselves from program participation. so a lot of what seems intuitive because we don't have mechanisms for measuring outcomes can become very problematic to the violate the very first principle of an intervention, which is do no harm. looking into it. we're taking a very deep dive. not justo be able to criticize the government for not having anything in place, but to

provide a realistic alternative, that makes sense and that can be tested so that it can be developed and evolve over time. parallel networks would like to be in the lead with that or partnering with other organizations that are thinking same lines. >> so mitch if i can take a step and ask you to outline your u.s. government extremismlent projects and programs more recently. spent a fair amount of money on programs in communities. what's your sense about how effective they have been or not or some of the key challenges efforts? i mean, we know for sure overseas, the british have spent of resources as part of the prevent program, including channel and other programs. a new program the british have introduced for individuals that have just left prison. have devoted

resources on cve as well on the prevent side. your sense about here? how effective those efforts have been and what some of the challenges are. easy questions. >> exactly. i think when you look back at how the u.s. has approached it obama goes back to the administration and their assessment that something needed and to complement the a softer ctf. a lot of it was start and stop. some interest, but then questions how to move forward. bostonhe attacks at the marathon, it got rejuvenated in u.s. and it was our understanding there were three other pilot programs put into place in and los angeles and minneapolis and what was determined was that who should the lead? well, the u.s. attorneys office

and those particular jurisdictions should have the cve efforts. the u.s. attorney's office has toe good faith efforts organize different people from the community to be involved in these efforts, but frankly one the biggest problems and we saw this looking and speaking to is that thee u.k. u.s. federal government is a clumsy actor in this space. and radicalization is often a very local phenomenon and the u.s. government and, you know, all of its capabilities from the federal tends tot on down number one not have any legitimacy in dealing with field.in the so it really has to be an combat, local effort to violent extremism and the other thing that the u.s. government is that religion is a topic it just can't touch. th -- over u.s. foreign

policy, it can't touch the ideology that is also a thesezing factor for individuals so it puts it at a disadvantage in trying to push the path. so it seems like local organizations, organizations you look at the gang world, we've taken former and taken them and said you go back into the community, talk about your experience and hopefully, that's a deterrent when you're speaking to the 15, 16-year-old version yourself and i've been down that road. i know what you're thinking. i know the ideology but let me it's a dead end. and it leads to our assessment in looking at some of the programs, that's probably the best route to go so if we had any advice for the u.s. government it would be to take a venture capitalist approach. angel funding for local initiatives that have because it's not coming from the u.s. government and let them do some work.

create some standards that they adhere to, but it's going to be difficult and u.s.ely to succeed if the government top down pushes these initiatives. them.ecially to start >> yeah. >> jesse there's a question for you from a member of the audience. women.e of what role do you find women playing in these types of organizations? fighters,, organizers. a radicalization standpoint the role of women as as in the counterviolent extremism, what role do women play? i'll just highlight that i know in traveling to europe recently, from athe challenges number of european governments' standpoints that have seen a large number of foreign fighters, many have not returned to europe, but their families, are.ding wives, have and so the broader question of the role of women?

>> so with regard to the role of women in the radicalization process they are a cornerstone in the process. we used to deliberately look for women that would administer our chat rooms. peoplettract men, even in extremist movements are looking for partners and one of primary appeals is the -- the opposite gender. but they also had due to our context -- twitter, and they can understand the ideology and dimmest and eight -- disseminated. we can make it look like look, this is a woman that is sacrificing herself and her time for the sake of this movement. what are you men doing. that is an incredibly shameful thatach to facilitating

progression from radicalization into violent extremism. there are many more roles a woman place. at it is also powerful, because it is a cohesive and copperheads of worldview that includes everything on down to how you practice your family life. it includes every single aspect of life and hits every single aspect of a fundamentalist pitsms life accents -- every single aspect of a fundamentalist muslim's life against this. your understand what a powerful narrative it is to have a woman go on an online application and say i cover my face because this is feminism from an islamic standpoints to feed into that divide. in the sense of countering violent extremism in the role of women, i think we are starting to understand, particularly in the international level and the role the united nations have come a women have a serious role to play, particularly in regard to the cases you are referencing.

were not as coerced into their participation or joining of isis as a lot of times they make it seem, which is in their interests, but being able to experience and that -- that and experience what life was like under the islamic state and document that and show the effect on the children and the impact it had, it was serious trauma. it will be one of the things we face going forward. one of the most powerful narratives isis has to prove it is still lives in stable -- it is still sustainable and legitimate is the fact they have prepared an entire generation of thousands and thousands and thousands of kids who have been prepped ideologically and operationally to carry this jihad on into the next generation, which seems like even though we lost territory, we will definitely continue to thrive. challenging those narratives is incredibly important and showing the trauma of the children that

are coming back. but not just showing the trauma, showing the fact that western society can deal with this in a nonpunitive way. these women need to be given opportunities to heal, and in particular cases where the risk assessment is conducted, where it seems like they can become reintegrated effectively, that becomes like mitch said, a form that is credible, but also can be most valuable. >> so question for you from the audience, and let me preface it by saying one of the new developments in the recent british counterterrorism strategies that came out in june, called contest, it includes concerns about the rising threat from extreme right-wing groups in particular. they had the attack at the center murray park mosque -- center murray park mosque. one member of the audience asked , essentially, about the role of

and the danger, and the threat and reaction to extreme right-wing groups in the u.s.. so what is your sense of the from the extreme right, and how do we balance as we talk in whateverism form, whether it is ethnic, it left wing, extreme right-wing, or religious in this case. how do we balance at? with the cbe debate was kicking off in the u.s., and because it is such a loaded topic and generally when you are talking about al qaeda followers , they tend to come from muslim backgrounds, because the ideology is trying to activate that part of their identity. if you are going to have a debate in the u.s., you have to be broader. you have to ignore to there are

all of extremism. right-wing, left-wing, other types of ideologically driven, and when we look at them in many ways, they are not that different, or at least the process of turning to violence is not that different, even know they are coming from different ideological roots. i would put gang violence in a different place because there is no ideology to it. it is criminal driven violence. so in order to protect the discussion, we have to honestly ve discussionc has to cover all of these. and from more personal perspectives and parallel on thes, focusing islamic type extremism, but we are also having discussions with some of the right-wing extremists. the process is to get into the extremism. it is likely a process needs to bring people back also needs to be similar. i think u.s. policy has to factor that in as a design

program, and as much as you would want to see it from some groups that focus on al qaeda, if you do not want to see funds from anti-neo-nazi groups, other kinds of groups that are focused on extremism. jeffrey is involved with a couple of conversations with some people on the far right right, and frankly, it is timely, considering we are coming up on the charlottesville anniversary. to see one person in particular who was the bit -- a bit of a ringleader, see if we can pull them back from the violence element and ring it into the debate. >> jesse, i want to give you a chance to comment as well. one of the questions, do these networks only use former islamists, or do you plan at some point to work with former neo-nazis, white supremacists, or others? that is one. several people have asked if you can add on to that, what the biggest factor or factors in

your radicalization process or social, economic, other things. if you can start with the extreme right-wing question and get onto your own background. >> ok. in regards to white ring -- white ring -- right-wing extremism i will be very brief. i think it is born to address -- important to address right-wing extremism because it is responsible for giving them this anti-islamic view that muslims bring abouting to america by force. we could introduce a symbiotic relationship between the two, so at this point, the jihadists need the far right, the far right needs the jihadists. that is especially true for countries like britain. learning how to dismantle that

symbiotic relationship is important. and we have to take things one that but a time. we are not funded, we have a startup, but we have conversations ongoing with former far right extremists. relationshipsgood with them and other people affiliated with these organizations. life after hate it is important, but i found fascinatingly that my credibility as a former jihadist allows me to make breakthroughs not just with people that are on the far right, but the hubs of the far right network. if i reach out to someone, i will not mention specific names, but the leadership of people who are organizing events or people who are engaged in being the primary ideology -- i say, i know you have never gotten any mail like this before, but i see a lot of myself and you and i would like to engage in discourse and dialogue. we are at a point now when we are able to approach getting one of the key leaders of that movement ready to go public and to say, i make an absolute commitment to nonviolence, which

is progress. --is not that we agree all to all their perspectives, but one of the most catastrophic and self sabotaging we see -- realities we see today is the polarization of our societies on the left and the right. protestant counterprotest will only give them the fodder they need to see this recourse and dialogue is not work for us any longer. wasnd i know the attack done by someone of the extreme right and killed an individual outside of london. also, we saw a number of arrests in france for individuals committed not to attacks against muslims, per se, but those viewed as radical muslims. there have been efforts in a number of european countries where the two issues are clearly intertwined and feed off of each other. that includes the radicalization process. can you talk a little bit about your own, your own radicalization process?

were the factors that contributed to it? you talk a little bit earlier about the radicalization process. principle isetical to those that were the primaries. [inaudible] in my own radicalization. one of the things i am starting to learn about is the role of trauma. i had a traumatic up bringing, i ran away when i was 16 as a result of child abuse. it is not an excuse for what i became, but it opened me up to a lot of influences. i became a seeker, searching for something to latch onto. looking for something, because i had grown to resent my society because i felt like society had been unfair to me. but i also felt like i had something to contribute to the world and was denied the opportunity. so i come from a poor

working-class. i experienced what the far right experienced as their grievance. i watched as factories disappeared due to globalization. i watched as opportunities decreased as far as being able to go to a community colleges, and i know the impact as heroin flooded into those societies. that alleged -- that led me to search for a radical ideology like islamism, but for meanings of resentments against my own people. those in the background, are the variables that are associated. trauma is very important with regard to looking at, particularly when we look at areas of conflict, the more and more we look at areas of conflict, trauma is important to address in regards to that. i would say really quickly, there is an intervention i conducted where sometimes it is assumed that this is a purely rational, ideological choice. every time you conduct an intervention, you have to look at why a person shows that

ideology. you always find that in the background, there is some life event or circumstance that, if you can get back to that route, you can let a person realized they chose the ideology because it was an outward projection of their own frustration and their own pain. there was an alternative ideology that did not appeal to them for particular reasons. you have to get back to the root , and sometimes you do that by addressing the ideology and going backwards, and sometimes you say there is no reason to talk about the ideology, let's talk about your life. the ideology as a conduit that's facilitating the progression into violent extremism, but in the back, it is the background baggage in the level of intervention. it is the most important to pay attention to. is a questione about broader participation, whether it is people in the room, those watching online, the public in general. how can the greater populace, ,onlaw enforcement, for example

combat online radicalization? is the support of "moderate, secular voices" useful? any,roles do we have, if in countering violent extremism? it as anow, i think of role conserving courage, in debate and discussion. as we have heard jesse described, one of the pathways of turning to violence was feeling that your views could not be heard, could not be on aed, and whether it is foreign policy spectrum, other parts of the subject matter, you are getting these issues out in the open and having forums for discussing them, potentially as a way to -- of people are forced to defend their point of view and are not in a negative chamber,-- an echo

they might have to consider more viewpoints and factor that in. will that prevent someone from going down this road? i don't know. there are so many factors that determine it. it is one way -- the discussion on facebook, twitter, it is so polarized. it sort of goes to 11 so quickly in terms of intensity. type of moreome restraints debate, that would obviously be less likely to antagonize people. it is more of a societal issue that is much broader than the ct, cbe space. >> great. last question to both of you. it gets into the issue of freedom of speech and radicalization online. so first to you, jesse, and then to mitch, from one of you. how do you limit the effects of radicalizing online and propaganda, while retaining freedom of speech?

it is important issue, i know some of the silicon valley firms have had to struggle with it as well. it is quite a difficult question to answer with some concision, but i think it is about finding the right balance. -- because of what we have done as of our first amendment, it is understandable. i walked right up to the line and they were not able to do much about it, but we have deferred and defaulted to social media companies -- >> can you explain, when you walked right up to the line, what did that mean for you? >> we would press, we would press the issue all the way up i level with someone and you should act on these ideas. like the most violent thing we did was threatened the writers of south park, which ultimately got me incarcerated, but it is because my codefendant did not have a proper understanding of the first amendment.

one of the first things i did when we started to get popular in the jihadist field was to review case law on first amendment extensively, so i knew what i could say, what i couldn't say, what was and what was not considered a threat. that is basically manipulation of the first amendment and is essentially what is being promoted by people right now. we have a rally here, august the 12th, for white civil rights. in their own organizing document that this is an effort to gain the system -- game the system. so you can game the first amendment to some degree. that is why there is so much pressure on social media companies, because these are the platforms on which it occurs, and away you can tweak what is permissible to say is in terms of service agreements. they have been delegated the responsibility and the government has pushed criticism, and it is very difficult to understand because of the .hanging nature of the universe we all here what each other says and we are all interconnected. we talk about the sixth degrees

-- six degrees of separation, and it is minimized. when we look at facebook, we are all connected within a step away of each other. when you study who you are talking about any interconnection of those pathways, we are actually closer . we have this serious problem for how you use free expression to engage in dialogue and discourse when no one that disagrees with each other is talking to each --er, and extreme earth extremists are in their own chambers. thehe terms of service, efforts of takedown to remove content, that is understandable. not not so sure it will make the problem worse. i think it needs to be thought of holistically, where you can takedown content where pols will -- possible, but other phenomenon that work around it will sustain the discourse. how do you promote engagement and dialogue? rather than shun these people and not give them a platform or an opportunity to's week, engage them. give them an opportunity to speak. that way you can push back against them.

one of the things we are planning on doing is publicizing the fact we have engagement with far right extremists and being able to put them on stage and express their views, no matter how hard they maybe, and giving an audience like you all an opportunity to push back. but we suggest that combativeness and rational reputation, that is why counter messaging does not work. people are emotional. people do not think like that. that is why we are trying to create an alternative ecosystem. we went from counter measuring -- messaging to alternative messaging. -- nothing will essentially work. we need to preserve free speech by forcing dialogue with those we disagree with. rather than only engaging in those that we do agree with, which is something that even moderates and all of us essentially start to do, whether we recognize it or not. >> jesse, the last word?

-- mitch, the last word? >> sure. we talked about jesse dancing on the line of the first amendment. what caused him to be indicted and arrested is that his colleague, an individual from the area, george mason grad, zachary chester, threatened trey parker and matt stone specifically online and said, you should do to them what happened to steal van gogh, who in assassinated in amsterdam 2004, when his throat was slit by al qaeda acolytes. onlinenly because the threat was specific to say this is who you should do it too and , theys what you should do found the legal route to prosecute that. otherwise, jesse and his group had the devil the southern district of new york and the eastern district of new york, the u.s. attorney's office. that first amendment line is

cutting it too close, frankly. we haved to think that seen how mark zuckerberg has turned himself into a pretzel over the past 48, 72 hours on holocaust issues. terms of service, the first amendment is for the types of threats we are talking about, probably a line that is too far. it probably needs to be the terms of service that restricts what is said online. i have the germans have a law --inst the strict discussion restricting discussion of the holocaust and as well as in france, much stricter freedom of speech lines. they have gone to silicon valley and tried to push for content to be taken down. we are seeing more of that now. but more needs to be done, and that is one of our points in the papers. in terms of service, that is probably the most elegant way to do it. the company has a platform and essentially gets to determine the roles by which everybody plays. all for sticking

with us until the very end. i wanted to ask you to join me in thanking both jesse and mitch for a really interesting discussion that covered radicalization, countering violent extremism, the u.s. constitution, i think there are a few things we did not at least touch on here. please join me in thanking both of them for coming. [applause] >> this will also be online for you to view as well. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2018] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] tonight, an illinois house debate between incumbent congressman peter roskam and

democratic challenger sean caston. economy, gunt the control, relations with president trump, and the russia investigation. the event was held in chicago. it airs tonight at 8:00 eastern on c-span. and right after that, a virginia senate debate between incumbent democrat tim kaine and his public challenger, corey stewart. that was moderated by pbs's julie woodruff. that debate starts at 9:00 p.m. eastern, also on c-span. sunday night on afterwards, former white house press secretary sean spicer discusses his book "the briefing: politics, the press, and the president. he is interviewed by a former republican national committee chairman michael steele. donaldld reagan and trump are about 180 degrees apart from each other. and yet, here we are in this space. how did you navigate that? we are both reagan conservatives in that regard.