>> "washington journal" continues. host: we are joined by richard forlarich, codirector energy and science policy at george mason university and a former u.s. ambassador. ambassador, when we are talking about the grid, what do we mean? guest: that is the very basic question. my connection is when i go home and through the electrical switch. most people think that is the most important part. but you have the production of energy, which may come from coal

, gas, nuclear power, you have its transmission, but ultimately it goes to the consumers. the grid is that network and that is what makes it so complicated and vulnerable because there are many points of entry. is not just the physical bread, it is a cyber grid as well. host: who is responsible for protecting the grid and how do you do that on something so vast? guest: that is something we are .oing at george mason your regulators in government at the federal level and the state level. your private companies that on the production and transmission lines and then you have third parties who produce the technologies the companies and the governments used to regulate the systems. it is a complex public/private relationship that has to be managed if you're going to protect the grid. it used to be people only thought about the physical side.

someone said it was guns, guards, and gates. that is not enough. you can protect the production of electricity and the production of natural gas, but if this technology that moves gas and electricity is vulnerable to hackers, you'll opened up a backdoor. host: what is the scenario who keeps -- that keeps you up at night? go back to my service at the department of state. i spent a number of years in eastern europe and the former soviet union. you have to be concerned about threats from abroad. you have to look at two is capable and who has the intent to disrupt our electrical grid. i will start with the russians. we have seen their behavior in ukraine twice, 2015 and 2017 were a cyber attack was aimed at disrupting the electrical supply. they have gone after estonia, one of our smallest nato

partners but most effective in this area, and they went after an oil pipeline that according to some reporting goes through turkey to the mediterranean sea. they have's shown the capability and intent. now we have to worry about iran. shenzhen's -- sanctions have to be applied. they are not a major power. this technology is not just a purview of the u.s. and china and russia. smaller countries, organized crime groups, all of them can be equipped with the capability to disrupt our electrical system. host: what do they want to do with they get into the system? russia,n the case of they want to disrupt the and potentially the social aspects of that for their own political purposes. , ithe case of the iranians may be something like revenge.

us,will put sanctions on you guys were messing around with our nuclear program, we will carry out some attacks. you can have organized criminal elements new for their own reasons to make money would want to disrupt the system. but theons are complex challenge is how do you deal wellall of these things as as the hurricanes and other natural disasters that can equally disrupt the system. host: we are talking about the grid this morning. for about the next 25 minutes we're joined by richard kauzlarich from the senator thee energy policy -- from center for energy policy at george mason university. now's a good time to call in. ,epublicans, (202) 748-8001 democrats (202) 748-8000, independents, (202) 748-8002.

how often are cyber attacks being attempted against the u.s. grid? is this a daily occurrence? sayt: i'm not a cyber geek you would have to have someone who is in the day-to-day business of assessing and reacting to those. they are regular. the media stories we have seen recently indicate there are people out there who are trying, not just the electrical grid, we have seen it in our own electoral process, this goes on regularly. host: what are some media stories that stick out to you and what has been the reaction with those tasked with -- pence vice president talked with great detail about the cyber threat. secretary of energy.

talked about the energy system. the administration and those in government are constantly aware of this and working on these activities. what i am encouraged by is that our nato allies are working with us to deal with this problem. estonia is probably the best equipped country in the world because they have in hit throughout their economy by russian attacks. being able to draw an international experience and bring in nato together is important in dealing with this. host: one of the hurdles you see right now. you talked about the interconnection between private industry and the government. what sort of barriers does that create? guest: a major barrier is to only focus on one part of the problem. if i were to criticize the administration, it is this idea that if we just allow: nuclear

plants that have been closed down to operate this will increase the reliability. once the electrons are generated, they don't was system that is perfectly capable -- they go into a system that is perfectly capable of being disrupted by computer hackers. focusing on one part of this is not a good idea. thisdly, is getting public/private partnership together, including universities. universities have a major role to play. there are cyber programs all over the country that can offer a lot in this area. finally, the international cooperation is critical because we are not alone. the private entities involved, the businesses, how much are they willing to share with the federal government and how much of a trying to keep as

their own intellectual property? guest: that is part of the problem. the federal government does not own the technology, it is the companies that do. we can go to dominion resources in virginia and talk about this problem. support fromr id third company who may not be anxious for details to come out. i understand that. is the idea of collaboration and communication that has to be emphasized in the public/private part of this. host: let's chat with a few callers. eddie from massachusetts is first. caller: when i was in new york mario comeau would not allow a nuclear plant to open up. and said to congress keep the rates for transmission low, so now we are in a critical situation. we are vulnerable.

you mentioned iran. we sent word we sent a virus in. andped up their centrifuges they even have banking. they know how to do it. thank you. a goodthe northeast is example, especially on gas pipelines. an issue has prevented the building of a gas pipeline that would bring natural gas to the parts of the northeast and last winter they had import russian fuel to stay warm. move that enhances u.s. energy security. it is electricity, it is natural irannd a good point about because they understand how to get in different parts of our system that may only indirectly touch on energy but still be points of vulnerability. host: how reliant are we on our -- on other countries for our energy usage?

guest: the good news is not really. we have made extraordinary progress in the last two decades that we are now the largest energy producer in the world, along with our canadian and mexican neighbors. a lot of imported oil and gas to keep our economy going. it is less of a vulnerability and more of an instrument we can , as theelp our allies president talked about with the eu, exporting u.s. natural gas to europe. avery, an independent, next. caller: a great subject. it is one of my major concerns and fears about the country we about the world

conducting this hegemony and the things we do around the world and we rely on this power we that is easily destroyed when you take down the electrical system. does go months without power in this country would put us in the stone age. are using hundred-year-old power lines, grids, nuclear plants that should have been decommissioned 30 years ago and , they would, russia be foolish to take us on militarily. when something as simple as a hack to our system would cripple us. in 2018 it is shameful that we do not protect our main vulnerability because we spend all of our money in needless wars rather than rebuilding our infrastructure. host: i think we have your point.

guest: the infrastructure point is critical. in the energy area whether you're talking about electricity of thesepelines, all are areas where we need to modernize our basic system if we are going to be meeting the needs of the 21st century. electricity is the greatest energy demand sector in our economy. if we cannot provide that energy cheaply, reliably and in a diversified way we will have problems. critical to that is modernizing the infrastructure, including pipelines and electrical grids. host: where the oldest parts of that structure? guest: i'm not sure you could isolate them. the whole country has issues. ,he commonwealth of virginia because of the production of nonconventional gas, now there is a gas pipeline we are talking about building. that raises the nimby issues.

if you look at the older urban areas of the united states you will see real problems in the electrical grid and the production side. host: about 15 minutes left with richard kauzlarich, former u.s. ambassador and codirector of the center for energy, science, and policy at george mason university. tell viewers some of the work you do there. guest: we have tried to look at becausen a holistic way we recognize that a lot of technology is coming out of the engineering and science area that enable the production of energy and the distribution of energy in different ways. i am part of the public policy school. we look at all of that and say where the policy implications. how to regulators address the problems created by this new technology that maybe they do not have to deal with a couple decades ago?

our objective is having across university program to hold faculty and students together and address those who are concerned about virginia energy issues. the problems we've been talking about this morning our national. lindsay is up next in powder springs, tennessee, a republican, good morning. tennessee.neer, can you hear me? host: go ahead. caller: this is a pet p volkmann -- this is a pet peeve of mine. i hear about people attacking our power grid with the internet. , what is wrong

with having a person with a phone or a radio at a and telling them what needs to be done without being hooked to the internet? it seems like a made-up problem to me. europe put your finger on exactly what happened when the russians when after the you could -- you have put your finger on exactly what happened when the russians when after the ukrainian system. the reason they did not succeed is because the system relied on manual switches and they had guys going around and flipping switches. the problem for us is our companies have applied i.t. technology to all of this. it might be hard and most of these cases to find a switch to flip. that is why our vulnerability is so great. in election security, we talk about having a backup paper ballot to electronic voting machines.

is there a backup manual switch welt on the various ways make in move energy around this country? guest: now you're getting out of my comfort zone. i think there are a number of ways you can do backups. one thing we can do, especially with our canadian neighbors, and we have seen that in the past when we had that massive electrical failure in the northeast united states, we relied on canada for electricity. having cooperative arrangements with our neighbors is going to be important within the united states. regional cooperation between states becomes crucial. these are not just seen is the responsibility of a single state but a region. i am sure the tech guys are see how we avoid the problem of a single node collapse. host: pedro is in virginia, a republican. go ahead.

area and'm in the d.c. i would like to see both my kids go to george mason university, for what it is worth. how do we know who is launching these attacks and why can we not have oversight over the people that tell us who are launching these attacks. who attackedr sure the country next to russia -- i cannot remember the name. the mediaook at coverage of these 12 russian people accused of being directly involved in the attacks on the and youctoral system read the judicial proceedings to goay now, we are able

not only to specific locations physically, but buildings, computers, and individuals using them. if we can do that it is possible to trace this actor whom is responsible for it. our national security has reasons why you do not want to make that a matter of public knowledge. my judgment is we have that capability so we can identify who is doing it. the question is what you do about it? one group that has come up -- who are they? one group ofs russian intelligence officers who are allegedly responsible for the attacks on the democratic system. these groups constitute and reconstitute themselves all the time. host: philip is in michigan, line for democrats.

good morning. caller: i was wondering if you had any idea who it was that attacked in san francisco or los it was a topic on washington journal within the --t year and i was wondering just south of me gas is always $.25 cheaper. they have their own grid. if power goes out they have generators ready to go for the last 100 years. could you get people to put the "washington journal" logo underneath the desk and cover-up that ugly pink. host: philip with a couple different comments. guest: i will let you take the last one. the point about distribution systems and production in the grid is becoming more and more

critical as renewables take over. in virginia when it was just a minion resources they were the source of power for the commonwealth. now you have these companies and individuals who are able to generate their own electricity. how do you integrate those people into the grid? that is an additional vulnerability to cyber attacks, the more people you have involved in production and distribution, the more opportunities there are for cyber attacks. i do not know about the casey mentioned in california. -- the case he mentioned in california. i did want to ask you incident dhs cyber response act of 2018. and how farat do along is it? guest: i've not follow the progress of that particular legislation. part of the government response

is not just the executive ranch. it has to be the legislative and making sure our laws and regulations are 21st century laws and regulations dealing with the real problems we are confronting. the idea of more congressional interest, more public interest is critical. host: who seems more hawkish? the administration or congress in terms of moving more money to this problem and getting more eyeballs on this issue? each part of government has its own particular interest in this. the dod national security part of the government has one set of interest. rick perry and the department of energy wants to promote: nuclear power. they are looking at that part. members of congress, depending on members of their constituency , are going to have different interests. that is the great part about of america. you bring all of that together.

the more eyeballs the better. host: in nebraska, a republican. i thought "washington journal" had had this on before. i know they had said that florida and texas were independent grids and would not be affected if other regionals went out because they had their own grid. are there other states that are now doing that and shouldn't we make the state responsible for its own grid? an interesting case because they are one of the largest producers of renewable energy. california is another example of the diversified electrical system that has taken a different approach, even going forward in terms of renewables. i think it would be a mistake to look at this is a state-by-state problem. this is a nationwide problem.

?ost: can states be independent is that even possible these days? guest: texas may be able to because they produce natural gas and wind power, but why would you want to? back to your question about backup systems, you want to have cooperation with other states or of their own grids in case something does happen to your own. brooklyn, line for democrats. caller: since most of the principle of hydropower is gravity flow and we have so many , we have theldings capacity for water storage at , why don't wes look at the possibility of having water towers in high-rise buildings in urban areas to power?

another possibility for spreading the burden. guest: i will take that back to our engineering school. i have heard about this in virginia where water is pumped up the side of a mountain during the day and allowed to generate hours.in off-peak the technology is there to do this. the question is cost. i want my lights to go on when i come in the front door. i do not want to pay an arm and a leg for the electrical bill at the end of the month. some of these technological improvements are just not commercially viable. of bringing the grid up to date, has anyone put a dollar figure on what it would take just for the infrastructure side of that? guest: i've not seen a figure i would rely on.

-- if youmassive think of this is a countrywide challenge for pipe lines, electrical grid, it is in the trillions. host: if someone gave you those trillions, where would you start? tryingi would start by to understand better what our grid is and where the points of vulnerability are and where there is an immediate need for modernizing, but really emphasizing the fact that in today's world power is not just an individual states concern. it is the countries concerned and we to look at it that way. host: time for a few more phone calls this morning. we are about the grid and great security. john is in hawaii on the line for republicans. good morning. thanks for calling in. like to knowld

what the electrical companies are doing to protect us from a solar burst. that could happen and it will someday. it will knock us back into the stone ages. can you explain the threat of that and what that is and what it would do? as i understand it, and this is an area that gets beyond my expertise, but electromagnetic burst whether caused by a foe -- we have seen discussion of this as an aspect of military power between the , or its and ourselves could be something solar. part of the problem in building an electrical system that is resilient as you cannot make it resilient against every threat. this may be one of those that it would be hard to build a specific protection for or from.

it gets back to the nature of the grid system. you have to have enough resilience and back up in the system that if there is a hurricane or an event like the caller just described, we can work around it. it is possible to imagine any number of things from a hurricane to a solar burst that would cause this problem. kauzlarich works on these issues at >> c-span's washington journal live every day with news and policy issues that impact you. coming up this morning, and set elections nathan gonzales discusses the results of tuesday's primaries in four states.

indivisible founders will be on to talk about progressive candidates in the upcoming midterms. the president and ceo of the national business group on help talks about rising health care costs for large employers. turner discusses the trump administration's decision to expand a short-term health plans.be sure to watch a c-span 's washington journal live at 7 a.m. eastern this morning. joined the discussion. over 300 people have been killed in nicaragua since protests began in april after president daniel ortega announced changes to the country's pension system. this morning, a discussion on recent civil unrest and protest there. live coverage gets underway at 12 p.m. eastern on c-span. later in the afternoon, a panel

of journalists discusses freedom of speech and whether it protects offensive speech. live coverage beginning at 1:45 p.m. eastern. andext, intelligence security officials discuss insider threats to the government and private sector. employer training to identify malicious activity within the organization. the federal technology and cyber security organization nextgov hosted this forum. >> good morning and welcome. i am the associate publisher. it is my pleasure to