could put them at risk. for being identified and fired, but he ultimately agreed to allow me an pro-public cut to publish the audio. >> pro-public a senior reporter talks about covering mexico and the u.s. government's immigration policy. sunday night at eight eastern on c-span's q and day. >> a look at rising bankruptcy rates. rates have more than tripled since 1991. amid reductions in the social security net. a shift away from tensions and increased medical costs. washington journal look at this issue yesterday. ook, the rate of people 65 and older filing for bankruptcy is three times what it was in 1991 according to a

new study the consumer bankruptcy project. here to talk about it with us, from illinois, the university of illinois program and law behavior codirector. what is this consumer bankruptcy project? why are you looking at this? guest: it is a research collaboration run by myself and the professor at the university , we have aia irvine long-running research study. we survey people who file bankruptcy. .e collect their court records it gives us an insight on the bankruptcy system, filing a crib see, an insight on what is happening in american households. host: the question is why, why

are we seeing this trend? there's lots of reasons. , we can in our paper document the trends happened. we ask people why they filed bankruptcy. people over the age of 65 will .ell us they have medical debt a lot of bankruptcy filers have that. we see income decline, which is not surprising. one thing that stands out with is aver 65 population third say one of the reasons they file bankruptcy is they try to help out a family member or close friend financially. thatis a fairly big number is different than the under 65

population. research, ther retirement crisis in america, our taper well in that water research about shifting of risked individuals. costss more out-of-pocket associated with health care. less financial security with retirement. what we see in our paper, the roots of it are set long before people get to retirement age and aey arrive, and they are just financial problem away from bankruptcy court. post: we want to hear stories about this. 65 and over, (202) 748-8000. and 64,the ages of 32 (202) 748-8001. taking your questions and

.omments according to the near times story about your study, three in five said an unmanageable legal expense played a role. how much of older people's income is going toward medical expenses? that is hard to say. it there is from individual to individual. what we see in bankruptcy court is it is not just income. a lot of credit card debt is due to medical expenses. there's a lot of hidden medical expenses. two thirds cited a drop in income as well. >> right. that is of course what you would see across the board.

the roots of these problems, long before bankruptcy court. financial disaster away from a bankruptcy filing. financial disaster pushes into a bankruptcy filing. trenddoes this rising track with people living longer? is this a natural outcome of people living longer? >> yes and no. the yes is a small part of what we are saying but the trend is so large it can't be explained just by the aging population.

this,crease, i looked at the increase in people over the age of 65 over the study, i forget the exact number. a two and ag at half point increase. host: these older people, don't they rely on medicare to pay them? medicare to the extent you have medicare coverage, but medicare doesn't cover everything. doesn't prevent you from -- let me rephrase. medicare doesn't help you if you are still working and not able to work a cousin of your medical problems. when we ask people about their medical problems we ask two

separate questions. what about medical debts and lost income? the two thirds figure was a combination. host: we are asking viewers to call in and let us know what you think of this. if you're 65 and older we want to hear your stories. ray, you are first. good morning. caller: good morning. companyo work for a car moving cars at an airport. asked himf mine, i one morning, he was 91 years old. he was -- i asked why he was there. he said if i don't work, they will take my house. i can't afford this. here is a caviar.

marine. world war ii look at him, not being able to afford health care. he can't afford taxes on his house. these teachers, it was because of the school tax. i live in pennsylvania. this is what is going on. -- obamacare. let's get this straight. if you couldn't afford the premiums the government is going to subsidize you. it is not affordable if you have to be subsidized. take what he said about unions and health care. how does that fit in to what you look at the data? guest: we have a fair number of people in the study. one of the things i could say,

none of this happens without people returning surveys and a difficult time in their life. we are always appreciative of the people in our study. we have so many people in the study. the story this caller arestrates is that there lots of reasons people get into financial distress. the two thirds figure of the medical problems, one third of them are not citing that. the stories are varied and diverse. lots of different reasons. good morning to you. caller: good morning. bank rep see a few years back. mine was for medical. i worked for banks. we were responsible.

me, i had a hernia mesh they advertise on tv. it ravaged my body. much am just pretty resolute right now. , what did you hear about medical costs? it is it prescription drugs, a procedure? what could be the tipping point for folks filing bankruptcy due to medical expenses? guest: i wish our data made that distinction. -- the prescription drugs, the medical procedure. that from our to study. a large number, they have

medical problems. it is a classic story. people arriving with medical debt. then they have the debt but they are not able to work. that double win me drives them into bankruptcy court. there is usually more than one reason. i thought the caller's story was classic of a bankruptcy filing. seniorsw long are before they debt sought bankruptcy? guest: great question. ,nother thing we have seen people are waiting longer to file bankruptcy.

more than 50% of people wait more than two years. that figure has been on the rise. the seniors are just like all other bankruptcy filings. attempts tot of stay out of bankruptcy court, to cope with their financial distress. half.dian, over more than half of the people are waiting more than two years to file bankruptcy. they struggle for two years before bankruptcy. what is it like? what is the process? >> the first thing is to find a lawyer.

bankruptcy is a complex law. best legal solution? if you're going to think about filing bankruptcy you should consult with a lawyer. in consultation come up with a plan that sometimes my not involve filing bankruptcy but often would. there are two primary types of bankruptcy. , you pay your creditors out of your existing assets. there is also a chapter 13 bankruptcy. you pay out of your future income. you keep your assets.

that is the sort of thing that they will sort through. host: which are more seniors using? guest: about two thirds of all our chapter seven. that is true for seniors. two thirds of cases are chapter 13's. good morning. .edical and millennials the medical is it because of medical problems, it was due to the following into obamacare. i have been self employed. i'm 67. i am in texas. we skated by having to get obamacare because the state -- they puto have it off in texas.

-- they allowed states to make that decision. that ran out on us a year and a half ago. we had the coverage going up and up. nothing was available except for one company. obamacare only. 35,000 for premiums with a $12,000 deductible 5000 out-of-pocket on regular drug stuff. $40,000 for standard health care. we didn't want to.

i have always had insurance. didn't want to get into pre-existing conditions. host: why not medicare? guest: i just got into medicare. even at that you are still paying money. i am self-employed. folks, if your income was such that you didn't get subsidies, you got killed by obamacare. most just don't realize. you were talking about the cadillac tax. the majority of obamacare did not go into effect. mentioned when obamacare went into effect. the corporations never were forced to make the decision about having to cover their employees or pay the penalty. and the 2009w,

house committee meeting, they clearly understood 110 million people. host: i don't want to go to too far down this road. let me ask you about that year. did you need to see a doctor and you just did not want to pay the cost? trying to avoid the expenses? caller: i am overweight but the healthiest overweight dude in our area. we are very healthy but insurance. it is not about health care. the insurance is so expensive. even if we could ask then -- afford it there was not a doctor we could see in our county. , that wase paying for the only reason we were paying what we were paying. ok.:

guest: not all insurance plans are created equal. what we see in our data are whole with health insurance have substantial medical debts. a lot of that shows up because that is what the hospital or doctor will take. that becomes unsustainable. problem and you are in bankruptcy court. see in other research viewers find on the internet about self-employed persons in bankruptcy. they will tell you their income is notoriously cyclical. boom and bust. financiale these , that isat a bust time

when we are seeing people show up in bankruptcy court. , itstories from this caller is consistent with the data. one of the things that would drive them to bankruptcy court is aggressive debt collection. what laws could be changed? guest: that is a great question. i have thought about that. i don't oversell that this is a matter of better social security or medicare. certainly that would help. no question that would help. said earlier the reason the problems we are seeing are not because somebody is getting to age 65. areproblems we are seeing

much earlier. the result of lots of different policy decisions made. shifting of risk on individuals happening bit by bit leading to data we are seeing in our study and also other studies by lots of other people. i don't think it is a matter of having one or two laws change. i think this is a matter of a national conversation about policies and what risks we expect individuals to bear. host: what risks are people being forced to bear that they did not before? isst: so, a great example retirement plan. the pension plans, the shift from defined benefit plans to

defined contribution plans. used to, they would pay a certain amount. now the employer is more likely to be put -- putting the certain amount into an account. if the stock market is going up. if you are statistically living the life expectancy that fund is set for. it is possible the market could go down. ofical again, the rise higher co-pays and deductibles putting more risk on individuals when they have an illness, even things like the way we finance higher education. one of the things we see, people saying i'm in bankruptcy because

i helped a family member or close friend financially. some of that is educational debt. host: thomas, good morning. caller: good morning. know, this problem is only going to get worse. the problem is going to be exacerbated by creating jobs right now, they are all part-time. attachednot benefits to them. no health care benefits. i was watching yesterday, y'all had a guy on talking about an average company, for a company providing health care for yearyees, it is $14,000 a per employee for health care. i blame -- i want to put the blame on the republican party of

this country. years it is 25, 30 like when obama was trying to get the aca set up. they wanted to have a public option with people that did not afford health care or could not get health care, like the guy in texas said he could not get it, if he had the public option he could have got on medicare. that would have covered it. i live here in florida. roadve a house across the that rents out to a vacation rental. i talk to people in canada. they say we are the stupidest people on earth for putting up with what we are putting up with. you were talking about the risk put on to the patient. it has. the other end is the profits of the insurance companies are

continuing to rise. point, this trend will get worse. his prediction. do you agree? i would like to think not. i'm a believer in conversations like this. that that will help. also, it worries me whether we are going to have the political will to have the conversations we need to have. the conversations keep going back to larger issues. that is a fair point. our studies, the bankruptcy courts are a window into what is happening more broadly.

i have been overwhelmed by the .eaction of the study something happening in the corner of the court system. happeningto what is in the broader society, a window into what is happening to other american households. the, kansas. hello diane. caller: i want to explain something from a different. i am retired. i did everything right. freet into retirement debt . own my house. no credit card bills. i had a good job. for security based on a good income, i had a pension plan. sounds great.

everything is right. here is what is happening. i got real numbers for you. medicaren't understand . it is complicated. -- youn't understand have to have a supplement policy. b, the best medicare supplement i can get. of $2752 aa total year. i had extra drug expenses because part he doesn't pay very well. that was $2000 a year. and my outpatient drug cost, these are regular 4700 $82 a year.

but i have had quite a few tests done and seen six different doctors. my out-of-pocket was zero. everything was covered. that youve to know have to have all three parts of medicare and get good supplemental insurance. me,er two, what is killing what i am worried about our .roperty taxes another gentleman mentioned earlier. my property taxes are $5,000 a year. i'm a single person. they are going up constantly. which means just my property expenses my medical are $9,752 a year. a 401(k).ension and

i have social security. into my 401(k) i get $52,000 a year, before local income taxes, any taxes, which we have here. what i'm saying is i think i set myself up as well as a hearse and can be set up but i am starting to look ahead that things are going to get unmanageable and i can't imagine withe retiring with debt, house payments thinking they can make it. it is going to get worse, especially because people don't have to find pension benefit plans anymore. you pay your bills, how much spending money do you have?

gosh.: that varies. i might have stuff. can't tell you by the month. i can give you what i paid out in those fixed expenses. i am not in poverty. i'm doing fine. i'm a single woman. host: but you were worried about the future. how old are you? caller: i'm 71. host: you respond. guest: i was thinking your colors are doing a great job of telling the story in the paper. the idea that somebody at 71 who has done everything right should have anxiety about financial future and the description of the callers situation, she is right.

she should not have anxiety. she should not be worried. she obviously has some worries. it is understandable. story is thek that story of the paper. when we started you asked why we do this. it tells us about the bankruptcy system and what is happening in american households. host: dan. caller: as a physician, let me put it this way. the problem is too many pigs at the trough. someone started a business to he would keep going as long as he was making profits, the sale of whatever he is doing. now everything is a corporate level.

these people ask an excel a tory and then the end result is there are so many people taking income from every system a person uses someone on a fixed income cannot keep up with the curve and expenses. they fall behind. we have to decide at which point do we consider the service growth ford a entrepreneurial advancement unbearable. , they're working for corporations that depends on entrepreneurs and the right of profit they make.

host: we understand the point. >> at some point i think we have to decide if we are going to have people on fixed income, we need to have fixed expenses. i understand the caller's point, but we don't have fist -- fixed expenses. we have fixed income but expenses keep going up and i with thet ties in theme of the paper. people are arrived at retirement age usually on a fixed income. and expenses rise. papere see mainly in our is that expenses don't just rise, they spike, there is a big medical expense or some sort of big financial crisis, and they end up in bankruptcy court. so i think what your colors are fits veryexactly,

well with what the paper's findings are. host: mary is in pennsylvania. good morning. caller: good morning. planned well, we downsized, we did everything so that we could end up being with our fixed income, comfortable. not extravagant, but comfortable. she died, i lost $10,000 in income. and i think a lot of windows do not understand that when your going toies, you are lose his social security but you are also going to lose a good portion of his pension, which let's face it, men get more of a pension than women do. eight wind up behind the ball because you are losing all that income. and then you discover everybody else wants more money,

especially school taxes. my school taxes are the same as diane's on a house worth $170,000. so i am paying $5,000 a year in taxes. now, we planned, but i know a lot of women, because of the area that i am in, which is a low-income area, they are spending almost half of their social security just to keep in their houses, just to keep a roof over their heads, because the school taxes are becoming astronomical. host: when you say school taxes, you are talking about property taxes? caller: yes. your taxes are divided into two parts, one is municipal, which goes to the municipal government, which i'm thankful for. they understand we are in a poor

area, let's keep the taxes down, and then the school taxes. the underfunding of pension plans in pennsylvania they are rising astronomically, and it is going to get worse because we are really behind and making sure that the pension plans or pay for -- pension plans are paid for. and i don't know what is going to happen to a lot of these that a justn, trying to keep the roof over their heads. look at the future and sit there and wonder if i can afford my little, $170,000 home someday, because of the taxes. but remember, i did well. bplan for having a good part and part d so i wouldn't have a lot of health care issues in the future. i am paying more than i have to

write now. to gym in erie, pennsylvania. caller: i wanted to ask the professor a couple of questions. but in erie, pennsylvania, the fromof can -- the lady kansas was speaking about property taxes and my wife and i are thinking about selling our house because property taxes in pennsylvania, i mean, everywhere you look they just go up and out up and up. and people who rent, they don't have to think about property taxes, going into bankruptcy. so we are thinking about selling the house, it is a good time to sell the house, and then becoming renters. what i wanted to ask the professor, what is the correlation between, like here pennsylvania, there is

a lot of city debt, and nationally we are up to about $21 trillion in debt. debtyou look at that big hanging over all americans, how does that filter down and impact individual bankruptcies, and do i need a lawyer to declare or can i do it on or whatever it is that my daughter keeps saying, dad you can do anything on there these days, save yourself some box and don't pay a lawyer, but can you do a bankruptcy on that legalzoom outfit? national debt, and how it filters into consumer bankruptcies, i don't think it does at all to be honest. and whatiling trends, drives bankruptcy filing trends,

as i say, you need a fancy computer and a lot of statistics to conclude that people who file bankruptcy have a lot of debt. towhat arrives at groep filing trends is consumer debt. so if consumer debt goes up and down, bankruptcy filings go up and down, and consumer debt is going up. and i think in the near future, consumer bankruptcies are going to go up as well. and terms of whether you need a lawyer to file bankruptcy, the technical answer is that you don't read you have a legal right to file for bankruptcy without a lawyer, if you want to do so. it is probably not a great idea. bankruptcy is not a cookie-cutter legal proceeding. what is best for you in a bankruptcy proceeding depends upon your goals and your financial situation, and what assets you have and what state you are in, and all sorts of things. to i really would suggest

people that they use an attorney if they are thinking of filing for bankruptcy. if you can't afford an attorney, a lot of local jurisdictions have pro bono services that might provide an attorney. wherelaces have services you are paying a reduced fee if you can show financial need. but i strongly urge people to try and use a lawyer. bankruptcy is not something that you can just try and try. you basically get one shot at it and if it does not go well, you have used up your one shot at a fresh start. you're thinking of filing bankruptcy, it is probably best to try to use a lawyer. will go to charles next, in new jersey. caller: hello. i got caught up in a situation

that hasn't been mentioned yet. , had a pretty well-paying job and i had just started 401ks because why worked they didn't have them originally when they started. i started getting some money in my 401(k) and started getting some decent races so i put an addition on my house, and a $165,000,roperty at $170,000 with the addition, and in the bottom fell out. joba happened and i lost my that i thought i was secure in, and the value of my house came down. that is the reason i had to use keep what irds to had.

i had to cash in the 401(k), but the penalties were really bad. i couldn't find employment. i looked. i got tiedhat is how up in debt. host: professor lawless? you asked earlier about people struggling with suggests thend it caller will file bankruptcy but the story is what we see in the data. lengths too great try to avoid filing. >> i am from the washington hebrew congregation, and we are honored to host congresswoman norton fo holmes