"apostles of revolution: jefferson, paine, monroe, and the struggle against the old order in america and europe." after that, c-span series, 1968: america in turmoil, looks at the liberal politics of that year. ♪ this week on q&a, historian john ferling. he talks about his book, "apostles of revolution: jefferson, paine, monroe, and the struggle against the old order in america and europe." john ferling -- host: john ferling, your new book, the last line of your book, "jefferson, pai andn munroe might welcome another age of pain. what does that mean? john: john adams referred to 1776, to period from

the end of the 19 century as the because it was an age of revenue -- revolution. what i was suggesting that the manyusion is that i think of the things that thomas jefferson, thomas payne, and james monroe fought against during their political career had now come about, especially there are signs of oligarchical control in america. that is what jefferson feared would be the result of alexander hamilton's economic policies. ift i was suggesting is that they could come back and all of them, thought there was an afterlife, so if they could come america today, and

see that the most important play on broadway, now and for the past several years is a play that lionize his alexander -- alexander hamilton, and vilifies jefferson, and ignores paine, and to see the maldistribution of wealth in the united states, and the amount of money that suffuses american politics today, that they would think -- and also, that they would see or thingsat many of these that are going on in the united states today bore an uncanny resemblance to the england that they had revolted against in 1776. that they would think the time had come for change and reform, maybe not a revolution, in the sense of 1776, but a time for great change. host: have you seen the musical

"hamilton"? john: no, but i -- i have not had a chance to see the play. host: the musical and the people around it have been very active in democratic liberal politics raising funds. what is the big impact of that because they basically have made hamilton this large figure? john: again, i have not seen the play. thenderstanding is that play was written by an immigrant and hamilton was an immigrant who did well, madewell -- made it well. it was a play more about that and then about hamilton's politics. the 1790 spirit you could have chosen thomas payne because thomas payne was an immigrant too. was 37 over when he years old. much older than hamilton was when he immigrated. did pretty well too. host: will you take us through a

man we know little about in the history, at least not many books have been written about him, james monroe? who was he? john: james monroe was from virginia. he went to the start of the college of william and marry when he was about 18 years old. and like hamilton, who dropped out of college to go into the dropped out, monroe of college and joined the third virginia regiments. and soldier during the american revolution. it was training read outside of the room he was living in. and at the college of william and mary. williamsburg was aflame with revolutionary sentiment at that point. monroe got caught up in that. he soldiered through the revolution. then he met jefferson. and jefferson became his mentor and his law teacher. monroe remained a satellite of

jefferson through the rest of his career. career bore an uncanny resemblance to jefferson's, in the sense that each served in the virginia legislature, then h was a governor of virginia, each served in congress, each was a diplomat, including secretary of state for both of them, and each wound up as president of the united states. host: what was he like? john: of the three people that i dealt with, he is the most difficult to get a handle on. says very little about himself. bewrote memoirs and it must the worst set of memoirs i think

that anyone has ever written. because he says what happened, but does not expand on it. have -- ie, he said i had dinner with napoleon, and of story. it would have been nice if he had told us something about what napoleon said emma when the plan was like. -- what napoleon said, what napoleon was like. what does come out is that he was a terribly ambitious person. he was rather insecure, i think. he misinterpreted many things that happened. he once negotiated a treaty with england and when jefferson refused to back the treaty, he was convinced that jefferson was stabbing him in the back so that he would not get the credit for the treaty, and that it would not interfere with madison's

election in 1808. i don't think that was the case at all. that was through the insecurity that characterized monroe. he was a very brave individual. he fought in a number of important battles. monmouthbrandywine, during the revolutionary war, he was severely wounded. he took a ball in the shoulder and it severed an artery. doctor was there to patch him up. it was just one of those fortunate incidents that occurred, because monroe had been posted on road leading out of trenton to keep anyone from going in or coming out before the attack was made that . noiseldiers made enough

that dogs started barking. the person that owned the dog's was irate. he was awakened at 2:00 in the morning, he was cursing the soldiers, and then when he discovered what was going on coming he said, i am a physician. dr. john riker was his name. he said, i will go with you. he was at monroe's side when he was wounded. he was able to patch them up and save his life. he was a very brave man during the war. in thepoint later on 1790's, alexander hamilton, in essence, challenged him to a duel. hamilton, i think, had a clear that if for doing that, and the duals never took place. but when he challenged monroe, his response was, go get your guns. he did not back down. host: what was the dual about? john: some letters had been released, hamilton had been

individuals of stealing money from the treasury and investing that money privately and whatever. -- one word of that was transmitted -- when word of that was transmitted to the speaker of the house, he got two congressman, this was back in the early 1790's, two congressman, one of whom was tot -- was monroe to go interview hamilton. they were satisfied that hamilton was telling them the truth. but he not only had not stolen anything, but that he was being blackmailed because of the next room marital affair he was having -- an extramarital affair he was having with a woman. they promised hamilton that nothing would come out. the notes they were taking -- that they had taken on hamilton's letters, that he

provided to them would never see the light of day. but four or five years later, somebody leaked those letters, as oftentimes happens. hamilton was convinced that monroe may have been the culprit. no one knows. i don't think monroe was. he was in france at the time. he had been recalled by washington as the minister to france. he was bitter toward washington as a result of that. he also felt that hamilton was probably the one whispering in washington's ear to recall him. he certainly had an ax to grind. he may have surreptitiously contacted the person in virginia who possessed the incriminating information. hamilton certainly thought that was the case. retained ehrenberg as his

second. he in essence said don't worry about it, hamilton is always telling -- always challenging people to duals and they are never carried out. this will never come about either. and it didn't. there was a lot of correspondence between the two and it dragged on for several weeks. they never fought a duel. host: how old was he when he began to get serious about politics? well, he was probably 24, linked upld when he with jefferson. think that munro hoped, and he certainly was not the only one who harbored these desires, i think camel did too, and probably numerous other people, that he might be the george washington of the 19th century. that he was from virginia, washington was from virginia, at

an early age washington had gone to war in the french and indian war, munro goes to war at an early age in the revolutionary --monroe goes to war and in her legion the revolutionary war. to inherit to stand a wealth -- money from a wealthy uncle from him, a man named joseph jones, a real power in virginia politics and the colonial period during the revolution. likee felt that washington, he might become a wealthy planter and may be military hero, and that he might washington,george so i think when he attaches himself to jefferson, and this is around 1779 comey he has left of the continental army because he cannot get a feel command. which again was very much like hamilton.

hamilton left the army too. he had been in aid to camp to washington and had tried and tried and tried to get a field command, and it did not come through. monroe experienced the same thing. he leaves the army. he becomes a student, a law student under jefferson. and also, jefferson by this time as the governor of virginia, the wartime governor of virginia, 1770 9-1781.80 -- he probably had the toughest governorship during the revolution because the british are rating virginia -- raiding virginia. town twiced out of by british armies. they even ride up to monticello and tried to capture jefferson. he narrowly escapes. 's military of monroe

background, monroe is not only studying under jefferson, but also he was carrying out some fairly day jim -- dangerous military assignments. there was a war going on down in the carolinas. downjefferson sends monroe to north carolina to actually see what kind of information he could gather on the british troops under lord cornwallis down there. and also establish relay to get important information back to jefferson as quickly as possible. it was -- these were fairly risky undertakings. i think when monroe does that, in his mid-20's, he is already thinking about political career. host: what about his personal life? married, children?

and then, you often mention he was in debt. john: right. in his late 20's. he and john adams and jefferson and george washington all waited until they were about 27 or 28 years old to marry. monroen the 1780's that mary spared he marries a woman named elizabeth court right from new york. her father had been a wealthy merchant, but he had lost most ashis money during the war happened to a great many other merchants at the time. i think he was obviously in love with her. he did not marry her for her money because she was not going to have any to bring to the marriage. untilemained married their deaths. she died about six months before he did. he passed away in the early 1830's when he was 73 years old.

he was in debt. in fact, all three of these individuals were deeply in debt. troubled by debt during their final years. paine was troubled by debt throughout his life. that hung around his neck as an albatross. at one point, late in the war, paine wrote to the president of congress, henry lawrence, and he outlines everything that he had done in support of the revolution. he said, because of everything that i have done to help win this war and carry off the revolution, he said i think i deserve to be able to own a horse. i can't even afford to rent a horse. he asked for money. but congress did not provide any at that point. jefferson, i think, learned when he was a minister to france in the 1780's but he was in debt.

i don't think he realized the magnitude of it until he came home. 1789 to virginia and he thought he could stay here for a few weeks at thingsllo, get reorganized, and extricate himself from debt by selling some of his acreage and some of his slaves. but he really cannot even pay any interest on his indebtedness. monroe was in debt as well too. heavily inulating western lands, much of it out in now what is kentucky. -- he was ak lawyer, and he practiced law to some degree, but i don't think .e really enjoyed practicinglaw -- practicing law. in fact, one of the letters that

struck me the most in researching the book was that at oneroad to jefferson point -- jefferson was in france and monroe was here -- and he says, i really dislike practicing law, i want something nose. something else would have been political office. jefferson writes back to him, and he says, what practicing law -- he says, practicing law is not that bad. although jefferson did not like practicing law when he had done so in the early 1770's. but he writes back and says, practicing law is not really all that bad, there are plenty of opportunities now in richmond because several leading lawyers have gone like john marshall to serve in the presidential administration. so there is some opportunities there. but then he also said,

practicing law helps break the boredom of farming. and jefferson, is of course the great champion of farming. and most of what jefferson --te, he depicted farming as and farmers, as the chosen people, and farming as the best possible kind of life. so i was a prize when i read that comment by jefferson. -- i was surprised when i read that comment by jefferson. host: why hasn't monroe gotten more publicity? a war,sident, font in secretary of state, secretary of war at one time, congressman, senator, why do you think he has not gotten president -- gotten publicity? john: i don't have an answer to that. his papers are available, there is a new series, new edition of his papers up through six or seven volumes. iuse them for the period

worked on and they are up to, not to his presidential years, 1815, 1816.ound modern editorial, practices. as i said, he did write memoirs. though they are not very useful. figure -- plays a role in major events from the 17 -- mid-1770's, all the way down through the 1820's. with people like jefferson and madison and lafayette -- he is the one that invites lafayette to come back to the united states. in the 1820's. lafayette comes to his house and visits monroe. he owed monroe a debt of gratitude because when monroe

was the minister to france, he wife fromlafayette's prison. she had been a prisoner. whilether was guillotined they were in prison. she fortunately escaped that. why moore has not been done about him, i am not sure. that camene biography out, a major biography that comes -- runs 500 or so pages. but it came out almost 50 years ago. host: what would you say were his biggest the competence? -- were his biggest compliments? -- accomplishments? john: he did not succeed in everything that he attempted, for example, he goes to france has minister of france, and

no experience as a diplomat. he blunders in that he is probably too positive toward the french canales from the standpoint of the washington administration which was shading more over toward england at that point. himself ashink, sees a shield protecting the relationship between the united states and france that had begun with the french alliance back in 1778. he feared that this alliance was going to break down. and it did. because of the jay treaty which the washington administration accepted. host: what was the jay treaty? john: it was a treaty that attempted to work out a reproach with england, and saw commercial

benefits and betrayed treaty with england. we really did not get very much out of the jay treaty. but it did prevent a war with great britain. in that sense, i think it was significant. a war with britain in the 1790's would have probably been disastrous for the nation. he was not opposed to a treaty with england, but he was opposed to that treaty because he thought it was a terrible treaty. in the war of 1812, he does serve in madison's administration. and he serves, actually, simultaneously for a few -- for a short period of time as both secretary of war and secretary of defense. active in trying to

save the militia soldiers and the other soldiers who were there when the british arrived in washington and burned washington. president, yous know, i can't point to anything that was an enormous success. when jefferson sent him to england to negotiate a treaty on his own with great britain -- and this is early in the 19th century -- he desperately wanted to come home with a great treaty. -- he respected monroe, he knew monroe -- respected thomas paine, he knew thee was a great writer and most famous writer of the 19th century. one greatfferson had

-- won great accolades for the declaration of independence. he was hoping that treaty with england would be his great prize. that would equal what paine and jefferson had achieved. backe sensed the treaty and jefferson rejects the treaty because the british refused to denounce their policy of impressment, of seizing american soldiers -- american sailors and forcing a man to the royal navy. they claimed they were deserters from the royal navy. jefferson rejects that treaty because they refused to renounce --ir policy of and present imprisonment. he came away empty handed her what he hoped would be his greatest success. host: where are you living now? john: i live out in the western exits of atlanta. i talked most of my career at a college that was initially west

georgia college, and today is university of west georgia. my wife, carol, and i have stayed, we have lived there for a number of years, have friends there, so we stayed there following my retirement from teaching back in 2004. host: what did you teach? john: american history, survey courses. we had a heavy teaching load. we were on the quarter system and we talked three courses per quarter. the university system of georgia had us teaching each course every day. --alked three courses a day talked three gorsuch a day. i did that for 20 years until we eventually went to a semester system, rather than a quarter system. i talked the survey course -- taught the survey courses in the

american resolution, u.s. social the end and then toward of my career, when my department chair who created the course retired, i picked up his course on u.s. military history. and taught that as well. host: i counted 13 books before this one, at least listed in this book which one of those books was the hardest to write and why? the: i think probably book on the revolutionary war. there was so much to learn for me about the revolutionary war. a long war goes on for eight years. problem wasficult trying to organize it. i set a goal of no more than 500 pages, whether it is true or not, i was convinced people would not read a book that ran more than 500 pages.

obviously, they do. in some cases. i wanted to keep it at no more than 500 pages. so it was an eight year long war with some background to the war. and organizing it was difficult. that was when i decided to retire, i was working on the book at the time. i didn't teach in the summer very often. mentor told memy in graduate school was if you don't have to do it, don't teach in the summer. use your summers for writing and research. i didn't teach very often. but i had taught for a couple of summers to pad my pension when i did retire. but i did not teach in the summer, i guess it would have been 2003, and i made so much more progress in three months

that summer. probably more progress than i had made in the previous 12 months on that book, that at the end of the summer, i till my life, this is it. i'm going to retire. but i had already signed a 2003-2 thousand four year, and i do not want to back out and leave the department on two weeks notice to find somebody else. school would have probably enjoyed it because they could have hired somebody who was cheaper. at any rate, i made the decision to retire. that to give more time for writing almost america. host: let me read you a sentence from your book. i want you to -- one of the transcript the book is france versus great britain. this line explain this. "one can only guess whether who inon and monroe, their day were stalwarts of minimalist government -- i will

repeat that, stalwarts of minimalist government, would see things in the same light as paine." what do you mean by that and what is the difference between a a monroe, and a washington, and a hamilton. what did you mean? john: i meant that paine unlike jefferson and monroe, favored a stronger central government. in fact, during -- in the period before the revolutionary war, not after thewas revolutionary war, it was after the battle of yorktown. in the last couple of years before peace was negotiated and the country was broke. washington got hold of robert morse, the financier of the

united states at the time. pay paine too write on behalf of a stronger central government. paine was like prostituting himself in doing this. in many essays previously, he had advocated a stronger central government. that is what i meant. he steadfastly through his to a statespposed rights idea. he thought it was ridiculous. it was one of the things i think he would have agreed with hamilton on. constitutional convention said if it was up to him, he would get rid of all of the states.

paine said some things that were similarly negative about the states. paine french revolution, is part of a faction called the is.onto us -- gerond they got in trouble in france because the other side in france eventually got control and erondis sending g to the guillotine. they did not agree on decentralization. brian: what was the draw in this country for those who favored great britain and those who favored france? what was the difference? mr. ferling: i think the people who favored great britain believed the british had the

best political and economic system. it was an economic system that had a banking structure. money was always available for expansion. expansion brought more money and led to stability. so the more conservative people in the united states saw britain as their role model. hamilton says the constitutional convention that the british had the best system and we ought to try to imitate it as much as possible. he obviously realized they were some things like a monarchy that would not fly in the united states at that point. on the other side, i think those had twored the french

motives. the u.s.h had saved during the revolutionary war. they provided loans and gifts of money to the united states. in 1778o sent a navy and an army in 1780. without that army and navy, the americans never would have triumphed. so there was a sense of loyalty toward the french. paine was serving in the french in 1793 when the 16th, is tried. paine fought against the kings execution.

part of it, and he says this says, he- openly, he saved the united states. he made it possible for republicanism to survive in the united states and for republicanism to come to france. brian: it is not the republican party of today. r. ferling: a small the idea of a representative government. that the people would be sovereign, not the king or nobility. many of the people who sympathized with france, like jefferson and monroe and paine believed the american revolution was the start that triggered the french revolution, and they believed at least at the outset that the french revolution was going in the same direction as the american

revolution. supported,americans including george washington, supported the- french revolution and the first couple of years. it is only when the french revolution really becomes bloody, starting with the september massacres in 1792 and in 1973 and terror 1794, that they begin to turn against the french revolution. jefferson never turned against it. paine and monroe never really turned to against it. brian: thomas jefferson is giving -- given credit for the declaration of independence and the interesting language. george mason does not get the credit he deserves for this language? you wrote that mason wrote that

all men are born equally free and possess certain inherent natural rights and the government ought to produce the greatest degree of happiness and safety for the people. he was ahead of thomas jefferson. mr. ferling: he was working on the virginia constitution, which was being jotted down in williamsburg. down in williamsburg. he wrote that in a newspaper just as jefferson sat down to draft the declaration. i do not think there is a question that jefferson used that as a template. said life, liberty, and property. jefferson says life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. but they are on the same wavelength. i think those were the ideas that people in the english

reform movement had talked about. enlightened thinkers in europe had been talking about those ideas. they were out there. there is no doubt that mason influenced the way that ,efferson wrote the declaration that second paragraph. i think one of the things i find disturbing is there has been a trend among some historians to dismiss jefferson's contribution with the declaration of independence and say it was not original and the credit he has been given is overblown. thatrson acknowledged there was nothing original. it would have been foolish to try to write something that no one had been talking about. he was attempting to summarize what people had been thinking and the evolution of their

thinking since the stamp act protest 11 years prior. i think what people missed is that jefferson wrote a document that would not only resonate with that generation, but it would resonate with generations yet to come. accomplishment on jefferson's part. i think if john adams had written the declaration of independence, it would've been written in a more legalistic fashion. jefferson wrote in a very lyrical thomas easy to read -- lyrical, easy to read fashion. with the exception may be of constitutional amendments that originated in congress, how many documents produced by congress would be familiar to the american people today?

declaration of independence was only the latest in a series of documents that the continental congress had produced since 1774. nobody remembers -- nobody isembered them then and that one of the reasons john adams was not very interested in writing attract of the -- writing a draft of the declaration of independence. congress with every committee they put some people from the middle colonies on the committee and some people from new england and some from the south. roger sherman from connecticut and john adams from massachusetts were named. a couple of people from the

middle colonies, benjamin franklin from pennsylvania and robert link of the -- livingston from new york. they had to name a seven or. the leader of the virginia delegation was richard henry lee . he had introduced the resolution in congress calling for independence. to be virtually a lock put on the committee. but lee wanted to go back to williamsburg and he involved in writing the constitution of virginia, which jefferson also wanted to do. and -- señorurity senioritywent back -- and went back. jefferson had called on him on a number of occasions to draft documents and they called on him again. brian: thomas payne, thomas jefferson, james monroe. they are in a room with you.

you are trying to have a conversation with them. describe what they would be like. and paineg: jefferson would dominate the conversation. jefferson was described by people as someone who talked a great deal. i do not mean to suggest he did not listen. but he and paine were similar in a sense that they were only interested in meaningful conversations. if they were in a conversation with somebody who talked about the weather, they would have been turned off. brian: what is the difference in the ages of the three men? was six yearsaine older than jefferson. jefferson was 15 years older than monroe.

brian: so what would monroe do in that conversation? mr. ferling: munro is the one i had the most difficulty figuring is the one i had the most difficulty figuring out. keeps moving into important positions that people looked upon as trustworthy individual. somebody who was competent. he certainly seems to have been a compassionate individual. when he liberates paine from the luxembourg prison in 1794 and brings him home to live with him, he lived there for eight months. at one point, james monroe and his wife had not had a chance to do any sightseeing.

they had only been gone a couple of days sightseeing when they learned that they thought that paine was near death. they canceled their vacation i came back and cared for him. so i suspect that james monroe might have been a good conversationalist, but not on the level of jefferson. tended to revolve people -- regal people with his recollections of the american revolution. there are some documents left by people in france with him he dined. them for he spoke to hours with tales of the american revolution. he always intended to write history of the american revolution, but never did.

all of his stories went to the grave with him. i would have loved to have known what he could have told us. brian: you paint a picture. at the and, jefferson dies. two years later, madison and monroe go to monticello. how close were they at that time? mr. ferling: that was one of the more touching things i ran into in the course of my research. ando and madison -- monroe madison are like satellites around jefferson. they are competing with one another for jefferson's favor. tempestuousey had a relationship. did not speak to one another. andnow, jefferson is gone they are both elderly and they

go to monticello. i think they were in charlottesville at the university of virginia. monroe was at oak hill, outside of washington at that point. they go out to monticello and it is already beginning to fall into disrepair. the grass is overgrown. they walk around and talk about jefferson and laugh together, telling stories. brotherslike two old who had been reunited. given the tempestuous relationships they sometimes had , i found it a touching moment.

brian: how much longer did both of them live? mr. ferling: james monroe lift for 45 years. madison lived for a decade or more. brian: what did thomas payne right that you really -- paine rwrite that you really like, besides common sense? there were times when jefferson would turn to madison, many times and ask madison to write something. in andonroe would jump write something. madison was not a good writer i

did not leave anything behind that was particularly noteworthy. brian: did he write the monroe doctrine? mr. ferling: i do not know if he was the actual author or if it was written by john quincy adams or someone else. brian: john quincy adams was his secretary of state. mr. ferling: right. is hardase of paine, it to say because i like everything he wrote. i feel closer to him than i did to the others because i saw some similarities in his background and my background. he came from a working-class background. my dad was working-class. largeked in texas for a chemical company. he started in charleston, west virginia. that is where i was bored. he was transferred to texas and

that is where i grew up. working-classm a background. his father was a skilled craftsman. he went to london. when he goes to london, he is there several times. when he goes there is young man, i think he is at a point where he does not know what he wants to do. he only knows what he does not want to do. he did not want to be a skilled craftsman, hunched over a workbench for 12 hours a day, 60's week. -- six days a week. goes to london, he has a transformative experience. he is introduced to the english reform movement and becomes hislved and begins political ideas.

my experience was similar in that college was the great transformative experience for me. i went to a state college in texas, san houston texas university. i got my phd from west virginia university. when i was an undergraduate, everybody had to take four required courses in history. courses.he history they were lectures. that i tooksemester a required history course, i thought, this is the last one i will ever take. the professor who was teaching acame ill and they brought in new phd named william painter.

he said, i do not lecture. he gave us a list of five or six books to read and said we will discuss these books. you will read 60 pages before each class and we will discuss it. it was a transformative experience for me. at one point during the semester, i decided i wanted to be a writer like some of these people i was reading. the only two books i can remember was a book on george washington called man and monument. and he had us read a biography of hitler's -- biography of hitler. i asked him how to become a writer. college.teach in .e explained graduate school i told that story to my editor

and he had me write it in the setting they book " that came out in 2000. one of dr. painter's other students was teaching. he was teaching a college in north carolina and he read the book. he contacted dr. painter, and dr. painter wrote to me. we corresponded until dr. painter's death a few years ago. three might see oligarchical. as you wrote that. what do you mean by that? if you are in the room with those 39 and they see what is going on in the united states today, what with their reaction be? mr. ferling: they looked at

whichd as a country in very few people could vote. town grew up in a small northwest of london. only 1% of the population could vote in the town. that was very typical in the 18th century in england. you had to own property to vote. by real power was controlled the aristocracy in england. england. was power in i think what has happened in the united states is we are now more and more is being written on the maldistribution of wealth in the united states that something like 10% of the population

controls 90% of the wealth in the united states today. power, and if it takes $10 million on average to be elected to the senate and it takes $2 million on average to , we're ine seat rule inf oligarchical the united states, just as existed in the 18th century and just as these three resisted in their careers. i thought they had defeated. -- and thought they had defeated. jefferson calls his victory the revolution of 1800 and the second american revolution. they thought they had defeated everything that england stood for, at least in the united

states. brian: do you feel you know james monroe any better now that you have done all of this research? mr. ferling: i did not know much about him to start with. i do not recall talking about him much in my classes, other than the monroe doctrine. so i know him a little bit better but i know less about him. he is still something of a mystery to me. brian: what did he do with his slaves? mr. ferling: he did not liberate them. it fluctuated over the years, but he owned between 20 and 50 slaves. inherited from joseph jones. brian: after i read your book, you reference the memoir he had written.

he is writing congress and wants money for the house he had when he was in france and the trip he took overseas. he got into all of that detail. why? mr. ferling: i think he was deeply in debt and he was afraid of losing everything he had. did come to his rescue and provided money so he did not have to worry. when lafayette came and visited in the mid-1820's, lafayette offered him money. -- james monroe would not take it. .ut he did ask congress friends of his went to congress and intervene for him. they provided money. brian: which of the three would

you want to ask a question of? and what would the question be? askferling: i would jefferson, why did you not liberate your slaves? he was anti-slavery as a young man. turn againsty abolitionism until the slave insurrections in 1790. he should have liberated his slaves, and he didn't. i would probably ask him why he didn't. brian: the 14th book of our guest is called "apostles of revolution: jerfferson, paine, monroe, and the struggle against the old order in america and europe." john furling, former professor, currently living in atlanta. thank you for joining us.

mr. ferling: thank you for having me. ♪ announcer: to give us your comments about this program, visit us at q&a.org. programs are also available as c-span podcasts. next week on q&a emma national constitution center president and ceo jeffrey rosen talks about his biography on william howard taft. that is next sunday here on c-span.

night at 8:00 p.m. on c-span, the resurgent gathering meeting in austin on social media platform and freezing fuel efficiency programs on cars. >> people should be free to buy the kind of cars that work for them. it should not be second-guessed i washington or sacramento. that is a really big deal about this role, the administration is taking away california's ability to set its own fuel economy standards. and that is completely inappropriate. announcer: on tuesday at 7:00 p.m., president trump is live for a make america great again rally in west virginia. c-span.orgspan and and listen on our free radio out.

>> prime minister questions will not be shown tonight. instead, we will bring you our of our series, 1968, america in turmoil, with a look back at liberal politics 50 years ago. later, another chance to see tonight's q&a with historian john furling. we continue our series, 1968, america in turmoil, with a look back at little -- liberal politics. michael the author cohen, looking at 1968, election and politics of evasion. first, we go back to march's -- march 16. 400 north capitol