inis with "leadership turbulent times," run turnout and the miracle of new orleans, the battle that shaped america's destiny. festival 18th book live on c-span2's booktv next saturday at 10:00 a.m. eastern. >> today at 10:00 a.m. eastern on c-span, live coverage of the democratic national committee's summer meeting in chicago to decide on changes to the party's president of nominating process, including the role of superdelegates. watch live today on c-span, c-span.org or listen with the free c-span radio app at 10:00 a.m. "washington journal"

continues. host: joining us at the table is josh mitchell, a reporter for the "wall street journal." thank you for joining us this saturday morning. we are talking about oversight for profit colleges and administration moves regarding these colleges. gift of the definition. what is a for-profit college? profitit is meant to on for the owners -- it is meant to earn profit for the owners. it is run by investors and are looking to earn profits host: what is the appeal? where they offer profits students may not afford colleges. if you are not-- close to a school, the schools pop up and offer you an opportunity to go to college. host: how many people in the

college -- and the country go to for profit colleges and how much of it making? students in the nation went to for-profit colleges. disproportionately charge higher prices. sometimes those prices could be 10000 and $20,000 a year they are more expensive than public school universities. policies, josh mitchell has his piece about the trump administration looking to scrap obama rules for for-profit colleges. guest: the main thing that the trump administration just did, there were rules called gainful employment that the obama administration put in place that thatif you are a college leaves your student in high dead compared to their incomes, you will lose access to student funds from access to student

loans that students used to cover the price of that school. underump administration betsy devos rolled back the roll saying we are not going to impose them. we will go with our own plan to address these issues for high school student that hearing -- for high school -- for high student debt. there will be more for-profit schools that will remain open if these rules are put in place. the approach of this administration is to provide more information to the consumer on the return to investment of the schools, so they are relying on the consumer to be informed to make their own choice about what is the best school to go to and the best place to spend their student loans. host: josh mitchell covers student debt for the "wall street journal." he will be with us for 25 more minutes. we will put the phone numbers on the bottom of the screen. republicans 202-748-8001.

it democrats 202-748-8000. forpendents, 202-748-8002 josh mitchell of the "wall street journal." a little bit of figures on the screen about student debt overall. reserve between 2001 and 2016, the debt owed by american households tripled to $1.3 trillion. it increases -- the increase largely reflects an acceleration in student loan originations that was due to a surge in college enrollment. a lot of debt out there that we have talked about. apply that for-profit colleges. not just what they pay, but what they leave with in terms of debt. guest: there are two don't problems here when we talk about student debt.

you have a lot of students who go to colleges including for-profit colleges and they drop out. sometimes they don't even leave with that much debt. those of people who are most likely to default on loans when they drop out and they don't get the job they expect. and you have for-profit colleges, the other problem is they charge a lot. you can have students at league with $50,000 of debt. and maybe they find a job, but they don't find a job that pays, and they have a hard time paying down the loans. there are two problems. some don't a lot of that in general. host: let me clarify the phone numbers. if you attended a for-profit college, called 202-748-8000. others, 202-748-8001. we will get your calls and a couple of minutes.

how long have these for-profit colleges been around? guest: for 50 years. they started to crop up over the past 20 years. wall street investors saw this as a way to make a profit, so you started to see this surge in enrollment over the past 50 years or so. host: before we get to calls, talk about how gainful employment rules work or will be working in the future. guest: they would have worked. we will notsaid implement them, so schools no longer have to comply with the gainful employment rules. they said if you are a program for your students, where your students leave with debt that forces them to devote their income to paying down the debt, they would consider that two high schools would lose their access to student loan funds, which is the main source of funding for them. that would force them to close. host: a couple more questions,

does any federal money go to these for-profit schools? guest: the money that goes to the schools is the money that students -- students get a student loan and they give them all to the school to cover the tuition of the school. -- [no audio]ugh host: put it in a broader contest -- put in a broader context of the administration policy. guest: it is one thing they have done to roll back for profit colleges. again, the obama administration approach was for-profit colleges that a lot of students are coming out with high student

debt loads and are having trouble paying down the loans. we have to target this sector of higher education and we will use these rules to clamp down on them. betsy devos has taken a more free market approach which is what she has done through k-12. she wants to empower the consumer to make their own feels for-profit colleges provides a good choice for students in general if they do not have access to higher public schools. host: jan is our first call from kansas. good morning and thank you for hanging on. go ahead, please. caller: yes. this college for profit is just like the media. we are now getting professors and teachers that don't teach what is actually happening, but what they want to happen as the news media is not reporting the true news, but their individual

opinions. last two presidents previously have left us in one, big, mass. -- mess. it is about time someone had the guts to stand up and tell the truth or get out caret and all of these -- and all of these things that you are pulling up and these professors are worked our people. everyone has their hand out a set of learning how to work. host: what do you think? guest: you know, there are studies to show that for-profit colleges actually do teach things that more closely align with the economy's needs than public schools in some instances. thishe is reflecting basically, this downturn in public opinion of higher

education in general. i think she makes an interesting comment. host: travis is from austin, texas. hello, travis. caller: i have a couple of questions for the guest. number one, do you think the way that the boss is behaving -- the devos is behaving in her position is comparable the way scott pruitt behaved in the cabinet? is devos trying to do to set her up directly? my second question is, i seen goodhearted for-profit schools getting that treatment under the new obama laws. is there any truth? about like the airline industry struggling to keep up.

are these airline training schools for profit? how does that makes in -- how does that mix in? i have another comment. pass the smell test. you see trump trying to throw every, you know, every fox in the hen house you can find he wants to throw a fox in. guestlet's hear from our josh mitchell. guest: i am not aware of airline schools, so i cannot go into detail there. to the bigger question, it is hard for me to get ahead of this administration. i do get the sense based on what they say in their actions that they really do feel that for-profit colleges do offer something to students in higher education. i think the other big argument mademake and others have

is i gainful employment rules what i basically apply to for-profit schools. but why not apply them across higher education in general? if there was a public school that is leaving their student-debt with low incomes, why shouldn't they have to abide by the same rules? and i would ask the obama administration, and they would say, that is the law. but currently, the law only really allows us to go after pro-factored -- allows us to go after for-profit schools. there is a big question of, why should this will only apply to for-profit schools? in his administration says, look, if the only apply it to one sector of higher education, it unfairly tilts the field. host: more figures in the brookings institution the student debt. for-profit borrowers default twice the rate of public two-year borrowers. twice as much after 12 years.

out of 100 students with ever attended a for-profit, 23 defaulted within 12 years of starting college in 1996 versus 43 in 2004. take us deeper into those numbers and why of a defaulting at such a higher rate? guest: the one thing to understand the public schools get other sources of tax funding. for-profit colleges, 90% of their funds become from student loans. one reason why students are defaulting is that they have to take up more debt in order to afford the prices that these colleges. the colleges say, we are trying to do the best we can keep our prices low, but we are in a market here, and you know, if we don't get other sources of funding, this is how we cover our costs by students taking out debt. one thing we have to talk about is the students that are entering these schools. these are open enrollment schools. whether you are added at school and the public sector or in the

for-profit sector, you are at high risk for topping out or defaulting on your loans -- for dropping out or defaulting on your loans. they say there is only so much we can do to teach the students, and we are trying to get them access, but if they come out of college and have a hard time finding a job in this economy, that is not our fault we should not be held accountable. host: mary from tacoma, washington. we understand you taught at a for-profit college, is that right? caller: can i say what school it was? host: sure, and tell us what your experience was like. caller: it is ironic because josh mentioned it, but i thought of the university of phoenix for 10 years. as an instructor, i did the best i could, and i think most instructors did. but i felt like they let anyone in their -- in there. and it is an accelerated way the

classes are taught. they are for our classes one night a week for four weeks -- they are four our classes one night a week for four weeks. students, ithe would have been better for them to go to community college where it is a little slower paced, and maybe get extra help with basic writing skills and things like that. they paid money for tuition and they don't even finish their degree. i don't remember how much it cost for the students, but it was very expensive parent that was my comment. host: any question for our guest? caller: i don't. host: thank you. do you want to reflect on what she said? guest: i recall the figure. i think the average debt burden is about $40,000 for not-for-profit colleges, but the national average is $30,000 in debt, so that is very high. we had this underlying question

that i don't think we have resolved, which is, when is it appropriate to give students loans? if you have a student, for example, who has a reading level and ninth grade, and then they going to college and based on academic background, maybe they are not prepared for college-level coursework. should begin given $30,000 in loans? that happens on the public side and the for-profit side, so i don't want to downplay the problems happening at the for-profit colleges, but that is an underlying question we are not talking about is the country right now. host: here is a question from twitter for josh mitchell. private schools are not subject to the same laws as public schools. our charter school subject to the same laws as public when they are privately owned and operated? have acharter schools do little more leeway and a little more flexibility in complying with certain rules. calling fromy is

cornell, new york. you are any adjunct professor. is that at a for-profit college or elsewhere? caller: it is a state college. host: what would you like to say or ask? caller: the thing is, i feel like students come in to our program or an associate's program and they have $50,000, $70,000 worth of debt with no degree. the lending practices are terrible. if i want -- i went to a bank to get a loan and would have that kind of did, they would not give it to me. i feel like these protections are being taken away from people to put them further and further into debt. we have students who will never take themselves out of debt. and the other thing is that i am concerned about is, do private for-profit colleges have to

comply within accreditation practices? state and federal? host: thank you. josh mitchell? guest: there is an you accreditation process. that process has basically broken down. one of the things that happened in higher education is you have people who point fingers at the other and say, it was your job to oversee these for-profit schools. you have congress saying the accreditors are supposed to look at the schools and make sure they are doing the mission of teaching students and not getting them into debt. yeah the education department and the accreditors -- you have the education department and a creditor saying that is not our job. -- it is thertment department of education's job. there is a breakdown and oversight of these schools. and yeah, i think that the lending practices, we saw this in the housing crisis, you know, where consumers were taking on

home loans that the banks knew they had no way of repaying, that was one of the factors that led to the housing crisis, and that is one of the factors leading to a lot of people to the phone on the loans. they were set up to fail in the first place. host: john on twitter wants to point out that colleges are becoming a poor investment because colleges offer a lot of worthless courses. when you are looking at a for-profit college versus everyone else, how are the courses set up? is a lot of programs and the for-profit sectors that cater to the interest of the students, but maybe they don't have the payoff. like a cosmetology program. a lot of the defaults are happening at the schools where people took on tens of thousands of debt to study how to cut hair. you see a lot of these types of programs in the for-profit sector. host: i wanted to ask you to

respond that steve wrote. he was a member of congress in the state of wisconsin. he has experience in this area and is ceo of the association of career education colleges and universities. duringes, i have lived this and despite my best efforts to encourage, the results were 90 logical attack against those the delivery in opposed post secondary education and those connected to multi generational family owned institutions. 2000 2010, almost for-profit institutions across the country have closed, resulting in more than 1.3 million students losing access to the education they need to move into the middle class. tost: his points are valid some extent, but when he says losing access, where are you losing access to? these are the arguments of for-profit colleges make witches

is we are providing access to higher education that the students would not have. if they are defaulting on their loans, they are worse off than they were in their studies that have shown students who enrolled at for-profit colleges during the downturn actually ended up earning less after they came out of college and before. so you know, it could be argued that they are worse off in a lot of cases. host: to houston, caleb on the line. go ahead, please. friendsi have a lot of that have a lot of student debt. some from private colleges, some from public colleges. my question is, do you think it is fair with a private colleges to categorize it as private whenever it suits them whenever the incentives are coming from? similar to the housing market where you have incentives with loans. a penchant forve

people who want to create money. it is really about signing up for the loan. and getting the education a secondary. i feel like it is happening in both sectors. will leadms like it to something like the housing market. the you think it is fair to catalyze -- to categorize it as private? guest: those are two good questions. on the first one, yes, i will tell you in my reporting on higher education, a lot of private schools and public schools as well behaved in some of the same ways as the for-profit schools in that their number one goal is to boost enrollment because public schools do want to get more funding for they can stay open and expand. with private schools, the same thing. even though they are not paying , thereestors, they are

is the same incentive to boost enrollment, and they recruit students and give them debt they know they will not be able to repay. in roanoke,ette virginia. good morning. caller: good morning to you, sir. i have a statement for your guest. on both -- both sectors private and public schooling, they are in debt. i know quite a few people that are in massive debt and on it able to get employed. they have had to go back to school to get another degree. that puts some double in debt. would it be possible for college students, to go for the first two years of just getting curriculum, basic and then have outside companies recruit students, and therefore, the company would pay for that

education? would that be workable is it about someone getting rich here? host: thank you, bernadette. guest: that is the question is what is the return on higher education? when unemployment was very hi, employers raised requirements for job applicants to have gone to college. another unemployment is very low and it is harder and harder to find workers, a lot of companies are rolling back those requirements, which raises the college have a return on investment, or is it away way for companies to filter their job applicants? is an underlying question we are dealing with. host: the average age of a for-profit college student? guest: they are generally older. -- them them are good are. host: we have george was a graduate of a for-profit college. caller: and something that gets

lost in this conversation is that there was a whole host of us i graduated from for-profit colleges in the bush and obama years. i was lucky enough to get into a masters program, but it took me a long time to find one and i had to go into a whole different field. anyuestion is, is there loan forgiveness for graduates and people who have the degrees from the for-profit universities and colleges? guest: yes. that is a very good point. --re is a process called payment that came about during the prior administration and betsy devos -- it is a process where you feel like your school defrauded you, you can go to the education department and say, i should not have to repay my loans. basically made it stricter, made it harder to

prove that you were defrauded and to get loan forgiveness. rulesre working out the for loan forgiveness. host: how complicated with that process be if you were defrauded? guest: under the current proposal, you would have to prove that your schools intended to defraud you and that is hard to prove. host: does congress have a role in all of this? guest: well, congress basically is providing the check for students to go to the schools. so congress ultimately is responsible for people getting into all of this debt. they have set up this program. congress ising with when an a creditor tries to crackdown on the schools, the member of congress will oftentimes step in and try to prevent the school from closing. host: we have more calls for josh mitchell of the "wall street journal."

goodmorning karen caller: morning karen hey, josh. i respect the "wall street journal," and the level of excellence in reporting. that you have a consolidated effort from the rich, the 1% that all 90% of the wealth. they have a better moral understanding providing funding for the profit they are making today to a free education. how can we look to the rest of the world and see cuba is a poor country, giving a free education and producing doctors and others for free when we cannot do the same? and yet, we look down upon other systems of regimes. what is your comment? guest: i don't think there is

any such thing as something for free. free,may college taxpayers will be paying for it and there is an underlying question of how do you bring down cost? someone asked earlier, is are going to be a crash like the housing sector? i always compare student debt like health care. what is happening is costs are rising and rising. i don't think there will be a crash. it will be a lot like health care where it becomes a wave, taxpayers will pay more and more for it. in making college free will not solve some of the underlying problems. host: one last call from missouri. hi, steve. caller: hi, good morning. my question is to what extent, if any, has the fact that you can a longer bankruptcy on a student loan affect this?

plus, is it the case that all federal -- all student loans are from the federal government and not private institutions guaranteed by the federal government? thank you. guest: yes. all student loans, 90% of student loans are made directly by the department. first question, i do not recall. host: we are out of time and will say thanks to josh mitchell of the "wall street journal." here is the piece he wrote, commitment straight and scraps obama rules for-profit colleges. thank you for coming on this saturday helping us understand this issue. we are halfway through the saturday edition of the "washington journal." when we come back, we will talk with purdue university professor nokia brown who will talk to us about -- nadia brown who will talk to us about the increase of women going into the midterms. and yuval levin of commentary

magazine will talk about the failure of congress and what is causing the weakness. we will be right back. ♪ >> sunday night on sunday night on q and a, national constitution center president and ceo jeffrey rosen talks about biography of william howard taft. >> he never learned politics. he told his aid who served roosevelt and taft as an intimate aid, i will not play a part for popularity if people want to project me, that's their prerogative. he had a madisonian view. his heroes are james madison and alex enter hamilton at john marshall who he considers the greatest american ever. they believed majority should rule but only slowly at thoughtfully over time so that reason rather than passion could prevail. taft believes the entire system slow the popular

passion so the people can be governed in the public interest rather than through action. >> sunday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span's q and a. >> sunday night on afterwards, economist discusses her book edge of chaos. she is interviewed by jason furman. >> you wrote a book with is quite a lot about politics and on political science? >> the most important thing for the motivation is born out of frustration. i talk about this in the book. my interest in academic grounds are in economic interest. if you think about the economy today, there are a whole host of structural long-term problems

that the economy has to contend with. i imagine we will get to them in a moment. things like demographic shift, the impact of technology for the jobless underclass, concerns around productivity and debt and income inequality. something in my phd was never discussed and now it is the top three issues on the policy agenda. , structuralng-term problems and yet the people who are charged with overseeing the regulatory and quality environment -- politicians, are very short term. sunday nightrwords at 9 p.m. on the tv. -- on book tv. >> washington journal continues. host: joining us now from west lafayette university is nadya brown. here to talk to us