series 1968: america in turmoil. that, ohio congressman warned davidson talks about the work of the house freedom caucus. ♪ historianek on q&a, charles calhoun discusses his biography of president benjamin harrison. brian: professor charles calhoun , if you were introducing someone to benjamin harrison, what would you tell them? charles: i would tell them here is a man you can learn a lot from. he was an intellectual. he was a good student of history. he knew his country well.

it was good conversation with in a small groups that he knew well. he wasn't so good at meeting people cold. that is one of the things about his personality that i think people have pointed out did not work well in politics. he did not come across as a particularly warm person. that hurt him sometimes with his into relations with political leaders in his party. ,nce you got to know harrison you could benefit from his friendship and understanding of his country. brian: why did you get interested in him? charles: it goes way back to when i was in college at yale. i had a seminar my junior year with a great historian. he was a specialist in the late politics,ry american early 20th century american politics. i was an american history major. i designed it so i would have a years at yale

that would cover american history. one of that covered it was the junior seminar. i think the title was the democratic party from cleveland to wilson. it really covered everything, not just the democrats. a paper on the election of 1892 in indiana. that was the first semester. i did a second paper, the second semester on the election of 1888 in indiana. i began to know benjamin harrison then. i have written a good bit about him sense. impacted the fact that you are from indiana that you got interested in indiana and benjamin harrison? charles: i think the way he organized it was you are going to read the cleveland papers, the harrison papers, and you

will read a newspaper from your home state. my home state was indiana. i the papers on indiana and it worked. brian: why do you get interested in history in the first place?charles charles: when i went to college i was thinking about becoming a political science major. that is what i registered as my first semester. the historians at yale seduced me into the wonders of studying the past. research,zed original rather than rehashing what was found in secondary sources. the library was great, it had all of the presidential papers. we had lots of newspapers from the. period. brian: i want to put on the screen a series of numbers, back in the late 1800s of elections,

and have you explain it to us and how benjamin harrison fits in. these are the -- are the popular votes in the electoral votes for the elections. let's start with a little background. as aten think of this era republican era. it is true that between johnson and wilson there was only one democrat, grover cleveland. in fact, in the late 19th century, the two major parties were very evenly balanced. just about as many republicans and democrats in the country. they were spread out over two sections. the south was solid for the democrats. in any given presidential election, they could count on a body of electoral votes. countpublicans could almost as reliably on a body of

electoral votes coming from the northeast, the upper midwest, and most of the west as well. those blocks of wins was large enough to the presidency. was inu had between them those states, doubtful states, new york and indiana. most of the campaigning was done in those two doubtful states. those electoral statistics you had up there reflect -- they look like they are fairly wide apart. victory in 1884, there are two states separating them, indiana and new york. .hose were quite close

cleveland's victory in new york was something like a thousand popular votes out of one million cast. then you come down to the next election, harrison versus cleveland. those states were the only ones that flip. defeated cleveland. again, both of those states, new york and indiana were very close. you have basically the same blocks taking place again in the south and the north. there were some changes. happened, things that andnchantment in the west other reasons harrison did not do as well as he had done in 1888. he lost illinois and wisconsin which he had one in 1888. he also lost new york and indiana. you see a wider spread for

cleveland's victory. one 22 elect for about. brian: in your research, how did they react, that somebody lost the presidency and then was reelected? charles: the democrats were very happy to win the white house back. the republicans were sorry that it did not turn out well for them. there is an old story you have probably heard that grover whenland's wife in 1889 the cleveland's relinquished the white house to the harrison's, she supposedly said to be servants take care of the furniture we will be back in four years. cleveland got renominated in 1892, he was the only person they had been able to elect sense really james buchanan.

he was a very popular democrat and did manage to get the nomination again in 1892. it was a democratic year, quite definitely. he took with him into the white house in 1892 and 1893 when they took office, both the house and senate that were democratic. benjamin harrison fits into the harrison family where? charles: he is a part of the back inhat goes way american history. in colonial virginia there were five benjamin harrison's in succession. benjamin harrison the fifth was a signer of the declaration of independence. he was governor of the first state of virginia.

his son was william henry harrison. in 1841, justnt for a month. his son was john scott harrison, who was a congressman from ohio for two terms. his son was benjamin harrison, the president. what is the difference between a wig and a republican? charles: they began to call midselves whigs in the 1830's, they lasted until the mid-1850's. they came up as an opposition to andrew jackson. they had a program too. henry clay was the great .hilosopher of the whig party i guess you could say the intellectual and policy leader. . very strong leader

the american bank, the u.s. bank, and henry clay was one of benjamin harrison's heroes. whigs in 1852 had a disastrous election. the party basically fell apart. in large part because of the slavery issue. it was a national party, there were northern whigs and southern whigs. did not want to continue to affiliate with people who felt that way. the party fell apart. elements, theer temperance movement had to look for the whigs to being part of

the temperance movement. immigration sentiment was rising in the 1850's. had more or less fallen in with that kind of attitude. some people who felt they were anti-immigrant felt they were not doing an effective job. those elements of the whig party fell apart. they felt they were not getting what they wanted from the whig party and it did collapse. washe north, the whig party replaced by the republican party. the birth of the republican party if you will was the pass of the kansas to nebraska act which opened in new territory. slavery would now be possible, that sent forth in the north, many of them wild. the repeal of the missouri compromise. benjamin harrison grew up

around cincinnati but went to miami of ohio. eventually moved to indiana. why did you move away from you your family's tradition? he wanted to be out on his own, to prove himself. he had a cousin living in indianapolis already. he said if you're looking for a place to land, this is a good spot. there are lots of good people here. harrison had just passed the bar, you will find the bar is full of men who are like-minded, i think you will flores year. so he and his wife did move. brian: where did he meet caroline? charles: caroline was the

daughter of one of his professors at a place called farmers college. cincinnati.ser to he had a habit of visiting more and more. a love affair really, he fell for her. quiet, sort ofry an introverted person. she sort of brought it out of himself a little bit. she was much livelier, had a good sense of humor. he did enjoy her company. , she very interesting moved to oxford first. she was going to mr. net a seminary there.

harrison was at farmers college near cincinnati. said we hope you will stay here, can see was thinking about going to maybe to be an oxford. he said no please day. he said no, i think i'm going to go up there. he did and he graduated third in his class. of course, his relationship with caroline grew deeper and deeper. brian: i understand that you're retired in 2014? charles: that is correct. brian: where did you do most of the teaching and what did you teach? charles: i thought most of my career at east carolina university, which is in north carolina. i am a specialist in late 19th century america. i did most of that teaching in that area. brian: any idea why that era was what you were most interested in? charles: going back to that course i took at yale it just

sort of gravity. if i'd taken a different junior seminar i would've had a different specialty. the kind of research i was able to do, it was a wonderful. period to do research in. all of the communication is really on paper. many, many, many of the papersians have collections that one can dig into very deeply. the library of congress manuscript room is really my second home. had tons of papers collections there, harrison's has been microfilmed. it was a. eriod where you could get a handle on the research material. i marvel at my 20th and 21st century colleagues who have so and material to try

understand and assimilate into so many different formats. brian: you said something when you appeared at the smithsonian in february talking about your new book on a grant that i wrote down and i wanted to ask you to explain. i don't remember the date, you said it when selfishness became enshrined in our country, do you remember the date was that you suggested that selfishness became enshrined in our country? charles: i think i may said the 1980's. in that decade there seems to be more emphasis on looking out for number one. i think it sort of debate in the country that we haven't

completely gotten rid of it, i don't think we are anywhere close to getting rid of it. it seemed to me that some of the political leaders at the time weretouting policies that aimed at lining your own pockets, rather than worrying about the next person. thatposed to an ethic seemed purveyed in the 1960's. they were more willing to use the government to help folks. brian: go back to the harrison years. one of the things you write a lot about in your book on benjamin harrison is the religion of the family and the religion of a lot of these schools in the united states and the colleges.

i think you point out at one point that he was born again or he had a particular event. charles: that was in college. was a presbyterian dominated school. it was not unusual to have a revival meetings. preachers coming in and saving souls. harrison attended one of those meetings and essentially was born again as a result of that. he remained committed to the faith throughout his life. brian: what impact that have on politics of those days? the united states goes through periods of anti-catholicism, this was a.

when the american protective association was a gaining some steam. this was an anti-catholic organization. i don't think harrison played on that at all, or meant to in any sense. was not really centerstage in that election. economic issues were much more important. brian: you have in the back of your book a milestone couple of pages telling us the different important dates in harrison's life. 1872, he loses the republican gubernatorial nomination in indiana. replaces republican nominee for governor and it loses general election. , the united states senator from indiana -- this is

in 1887 loses bid for reelection of the senate and turns around the sheer and becomes president of the united states. he sounds like a loser. career: harrison's evolved over time. he had held a state office prior to that. the reporterd to of the state supreme court. he held that job until he went into the army and held it after he came back from the war. he was a very well-known lawyer. speechese was giving for the party. he thought he was in good position to run for governor. particularly well liked by the boss of the indiana, therty in senator. although harrison had lots of support for the nomination in 1872, it sort of circulated

through the hallways at the convention that morton was not too keen on this guy. in 1876, he was tempted to run for the nomination again. they nominated someone else. he had to resign from the ticket because of conflict of interest charges. in the early fall, the republican state committee said to harrison, we need you, can you step in and take over. he made a valiant effort. he fought very hard, gave lots of speeches. it was basically a democratic year in indiana that year. he came fairly close to winning. that, he went out and campaigned in other states for presidential candidate rutherford b hayes. oliver morton died the next

year, that sort of gave harrison the opportunity to move as the leader of the republican party. when there was a seat open in the senate in 1881, after the 1880 election campaign, the republicans want it. hat,son through in his garfield as presidential elect said it you want to come in the cabinet? and he said he would rather be in the senate. for sixthe senate seat years. in 1885, the democratic legislator in indiana gerrymandered. when it got to choose the senator again, the democrat one that there he narrowly. -- won that very narrowly.

harrison spoke all over the by a machined he to multiply his letters to get them out to as many people as he could. he really got a lot of national attention for that campaign. , allthe votes were counted the people running for the republican on the side they got 10,000 more votes, but the democrats got to elect it. harrison lost his senate seat the gained lots of reputation nationally. why was i importantly was running for president? i would say we would have to keep in mind that indiana was one of those swing states. here's a guy who could work really hard in indiana. in can perhaps a win indiana

1888. he might be someone we want to take seriously in looking at candidates for 1888. brian: did he actively run for the nomination in 1888? did he actively run around the country campaigning when he won? charles: no. he did not actively run in the personally hunting for delegates. he had a good team. it was headed up by a man who managed his preconvention campaign. harrison himself did cultivate hed relations as best as could with supporters of james g blaine. racethdrawed from the but -- we talk about him all the

time, was he, he ran in 1880 four and lost and become the secretary of state when harrison is elected? blaine really is one of the most interesting characters. he was speaker of the house for six years. in 1876 he was the front runner for the republican nomination and lost it to rutherford b. hayes. ethical charges against them that heard him seriously as it turned out. in 1880, he sought the nomination again. this time he had a knockdown fight with ulysses s grant. they came to a deadlock and garfield was nominated as a dark so blaine became garfield secretary of state.

the job longp because garfield was assassinated. he was mr. republican really and in many people's eyes. the harrison people in 1888 realize that you have to cultivate these people. they will have so much to say about who wins this nomination. what they wanted to do was to a wide-open convention, which it was. i think 14 people were voted for on the first ballot. the idea for the harrison people was let's line-up second choice people and see what we could do to get them after several ballots to come over to us. the key to that strategy was the blaine contingent. harrison did not travel around the country after he was nominated. done that in 1884.

he made speeches on a six-week tour. in new york, there was a couple that some gafs people say cost him the election. harrison said i will not travel, a candidate who travels -- a mayidate who stays at home need a full, candidate who travels will definitely need a fool. a person ineant blaine's presence in 1884 before the election let out an anti-catholic slur. i am not going to travel, what i will do is stay in indianapolis. when he was nominated he was in indianapolis. at his house, he gave four speeches that they. his campaign people said this is the thing to do. let people come to you. fivethe next four or

months until the election, that is what happened. harrison stayed home, slept in his own bed, he would meet these delegations from around the state, from around the country. often it would be special interest groups, coal miners, wheat farmers, cotton farmers. they would come and harrison would give them a short speech, mostly attuned to their own interests. he had his own stenographer take down what he said. what hewould go over said and made it sure it was what he wanted people to read. they would give it to the associated press the next morning and it isn't it newspapers all over the country. it was not a relaxing campaign but at least it did not have a lot of travel, worries, headaches, and fatigue. those i want to throw

three elections back on the screen to look at the numbers. wasou look at 1888 when he elected, he did not get the popular vote. charles: that is correct, i'm glad you pointed that out. this is another thing we have to remember about politics at that time. blacks -- in most of the south blacks were pretty much eliminated from voting after the collapse in reconstruction efforts. what that meant was the democrats could rack up huge margins in the south. when you counted all the states together, cleveland did in fact have a majority -- not a majority but a plurality. 90,000 votes more than harrison in the national popular vote. in the states that harrison won in the north and the west, the margins were closer.

if you look outside of the states that had slavery before, if you take all the other a pluralityison won in those states of something like 450,000. where there were competitive elections, harrison did much better in the popular vote. in 1892, if the populist candidate had not run, who would have gotten those votes? charles: he didn't get enough to flip the presidency. the member, it is through 77-145 for harrison. populistsates the worked with republicans, in other states they worked with democrats. it sort of the varied from state to state. it was not decisive. there were too many other things going on that militated against

harrison. brian: who was responsible for this, when he was president he pointed out that there were six states added to the union. washington,ontana, idaho, and wyoming. how much should harrison have to do that? charles: when he was in the senate he was on the territories committee. politics always played into the division of states. the dakota territories, of course a very small population but they would have if you elect for about could mean a lot in that era. it was because they were largely republican. the democratic house of representatives, prior to not go along with

legislation to admit those states. this is something else that is important to remember about harrison's term, when he was elected in 1888, he carried with him both houses of the congress. they were both republican. this was the first time you had that since 1875. one of the things they wanted to inwas follow through admitting those states that democrats had been blocking so they did come into the union. some of the republicans did give it a votes to beaver in 1892. brian: you did point out that in fourour years he had nominations to the supreme court. these are people i have heard very little about. folks and how did he get four? charles: he got four because

four people died. he had the opportunity to appoint four. that you probably have heard of but don't remember very well because we don't remember is the name on plessy versus ferguson. that is henry brown. he was from michigan. all of them were conservative jurists . thety much they were not in is this a wide mean areas of which government could take action. they were of their time, shall we say. name threeou had to or four things that harrison accomplished, that we might feel to this day, what would they be? charles: the thing we would feel to this day, may not have the most important at the time but is still with us today. that is the sherman antitrust

act. this is a. -- this is ats period where the trusts are merging. oil, cottonseed oil, the whiskey trust, all of these , there's a growing sense in the country that they are dominating the economy more and more. both parties said that we need to do something about these consolidations. these large corporations were of course doing business across state line. the constitution says commerce between the states shall be regulated by congress. there was a movement that something should be done to corral these monster trusts. harrison certainly believe that. address, hisral first state of the union message

delivered on paper, not in person in those days in a december of 1889. he was behind legislation. the spearhead, although he had other help too, was john sherman, a senator from ohio. brian: is that william tecumseh sherman's brother? charles: that is correct. he had a bill in the previous congress, he put in practically the same bill under harrison, this time there was a greater chance of getting through. original idea was to include production in the things that we can regulate. consolidations in production. others in congress said no, the constitution says that commerce -- that congress can't regulate commerce between the states and foreign trade.

production, it was felt that regulation of business and production should remain with the states. that is the way the sherman antitrust act was written. combinations in restraint of trade or commerce were outlawed. certain penalties were there. harrison agreed that it would have been better if we could've put preventions in their. brian: what else did he do? charles: he was very instrumental in pushing through the mckinley tariff act. of course today we hear a lot about tariffs. it used to be that when we talked about the tariff issue of the late 19th century, eyes would glaze over and say why is that so important. i think we have a greater appreciation of why regulation of trade is important. harrison was certainly in the forefront of pushing for a protective tariff. me interrupt again. that is william mckinley, he was in the house of representatives.

what was his job that got him into the tariff business? charles: he was a representative from ohio. sometimes representatives adopt a specialty. member. minority he was chair of the committee in his first two w oh harrison's term. point man forl developing this act. it was a compensated piece of legislation. lay behind this legislation and both parties were wrestling with it was that the united states'government was running a surplus. surplus,y use the word not deficit. something like 1866, the united states government ran a surplus, a group at large by the 1880's. the view was you need to get

that money in the economy, you should not be taking all that money out of the economy. the republicans who agreed with that also felt you need to have protecttive tariff to industry from foreign competition, mainly from british manufacturers and of course the people who work in the factories. the tariff sojust you are not collecting as much revenue, therefore reducing the surplus? they came up with a clever kind of way of doing this. one was to raise rates so high that it cut off the imports and said we are not going to pay them. that reduce revenue. it put sugar, a very important on the free list, do not charge any tariff at all. that will reduce the revenue. sugar producers

in louisiana, won't they be hurt from sugar producers elsewhere? louisiana will pay in sugar producers a bounty that will take away from the surplus. then, farmers that did not like the tariff because it meant they paid a lot of money for machinery, that they did produce themselves. and harrison worked out a scheme where they could give the farmers reciprocity. the power toem negotiate agreements with other countries to open up their markets for our farm products. it was much more complicated than people i think tend to realize. industrial policy that the united states government actively tried to frame red -- legislation to better the economy.

he also was a very strong black writes, particularly voting rights. brian: blacks could not vote at all? the south, various mechanisms were developing, mostly intimidation to prevent blacks from voting. in the time, if blacks south were permitted to vote they would have voted overwhelmingly republican. harrison definitely believed that something should be done to protect the right to vote. why wasn't anything done earlier? part of the reason nothing was that thee 1875 was democrats had house control. they also had the presidency. they were against supporting

black voting rights. when harrison he came president they said we can do something. we are now in a position to do something. legislation of the fell to a committee headed by a young representative from massachusetts. heap together ap -- he put together a piece of legislation that was to say federal supervisors could be called in in some situations in southern states to watch over elections. they expanded that legislation in such a way that not only would federal supervisors play a more direct role in watching registration, voting, counting, alsowould also -- this was

two congressional elections. those were the only ones that the constitution really recognize that congress could control directly. that thesaid certification of elections, if there was some question about the state certification board, then a federal board of canvassers could certify. this was really the essence of that bill. certificationnal of congressional elections out of the hands of state officials in the south who were overwhelmingly democratic and overwhelmingly against black voting. it put in the hands of canvassing boards and federal judges. that is why the democrats andsed it so humanly -- would do anything to stop it and

they were able to prevent its passage. largely through the alliance of southern democrats and western silver rights. brian: there's a lot of your book about benjamin harrison, i want you to walk us through the relationship with his wife caroline. and hiso kids subsequent second marriage. charles: we talked about in hisn meeting caroline college days. i think he was only 20 years old when they got married, they were quite young. he had the sense that caroline at the female institute was taking over teaching duties. harrison convinced himself that unless i marry this woman she is going to die. marry her, they had a very happy marriage in indianapolis.

was probably the place that caroline liked the most. she had a good life there. they had a two children, russell and mary. they had a third child in 1861 who died right after birth. iny moved to the white house 1889. caroline was interesting as first lady, she did all the hostess duties, she had her daughter and niece helper and the cabinet ladies help her. terriblyot a comfortable person in the public role of the first lady. she likes to paint china and so forth. they had at lots of family living in the white house. it was quite cramped. caroline harrison conceived this idea that what you needed to do was expand the white house.

she worked with committees in congress to develop an elaborate program and the drawings were made. as architectural historians say it was a monstrosity. she did get some money to refurbish the white house. in assisting her in her social duties was a niece, her sister's daughter. , she was a widow for six or eight years by this time. her husband died very early in their marriage. she eventually moved to washington, she spent a lot of time at the white house, there was a short. where she lived there. during 1888he scene

during the campaign, she helped with the social duties. harrison actually enjoyed her company quite a bit. he likes to take walks with her. she knew enough not to say much. she would play billiards with him. she became quite close with the president. 1892,ne harrison, in developed tuberculosis. it went progressively downhill. she was the person who put together the origins of the china exhibits. she did a lot of rummaging around in the basement and the annex of the white house. some people said she got tuberculosis this way.

she went down hill through 1892. she was moved to the adirondacks for the cool, fresh air. he is still in office, this is during the campaign for reelection. this is 1892. in october, she said she would like to go back to the white house and she did in fact thy in 25,white house on october 1892. this was a couple weeks before the election. caroline's own daughter was married. she had helped nurse caroline. she was very close to the family. harrison, of course was a devastated by the death of his wife. this was two weeks before the

election. he lost the election so was a time in his life. he went back to indianapolis and tried to put things together. his daughter mary moved with him . she helped him refurbish the house and redecorate. ask mameison began to to come visit her. they exchanged visits back and forth when she was living in new york. they did get married in 1896. was 62, she was 37 according to your book. russell, his daughter, and his son were older than his new wife. certainlyussell was. brian: what was their reaction? charles: they oppose the second reaction -- they opposed the second marriage.

when it was coming on mary, the daughter left the harrison house in indianapolis and moved out her possessions. russell also moved out. they did not attend the wedding in new york. it was quite a strain. it was tragic in a sense. he wrote that i can't let them get in my way of my love for you. brian: five years later he dies, what are the circumstances? charles: harrison went back to work in the law. he worked very hard. he did not particularly take terrific care of himself. in those days they were not particularly wholesome. he got pneumonia in the winter developed -- it was a

cold to begin with and it developed into pneumonia and he did die. brian: your book you wrote a number of years ago is still available as some of the presidential series. you have a 2018 brand-new book, i want our viewers know that they can find about an hour and 40 minutes of you talking in the smithsonian about your book on ulysses s. grant. it is quite an in-depth discussion. i want to ask you about something before we close this out. write something in the preface of the ulysses s. grant book, no scholarly work focusing on grant presidency has appeared since the 1930's was one of the reasons you wrote this.

there have been to w o graham books as you know in the last year and a half, i assume the other books are not known as scholarly books on grant, is that correct? charles: that is correct. brian: what does that mean? a historian comes to his work full of skepticism. after the seminar that i took at yale, one of the things he drilled into us was go to the original resources. i think that popular writers are willing more often to use secondary sources, more convenient sources. it took about five years to research this book. booke to say the grant took as long me to produce as grant was in the white house practically.

grant's administration was so encrusted with myth and controversy that i felt i had to unpack it all and to go to the original resources. i think that is one of the key distinctions between a popular writer and a scholarly approach. not that a scholarly approach isn't, we hope well written and readable. that the obligation is to leave no stone unturned. that is really what drove me. brian: all of a sudden out of nowhere, three major books on it ulysses s. grant and 2017 and 18, what is going on? charles: i think his reputation as you know from the c-span surveys has gone up over the years. i think a major part of it is is becomingt grant

much more recognized as a defender of african-american's rights. the civil right movement, not only obviously was fighting for civil rights at the time, it served as an inspiration for people to take another look at reconstruction and what it meant and what was attempted at that time. reconstruction, which came out in the 1980's was an inspiration for others to examine the whole. much more closely. grant was a major figure in reconstruction. if anything, what he did on behalf of blacks and their right , ultimately not successful, what he tried to do has given him much more visibility and interest. was the biggest myth that you are able to deal with on your book on grant? mostes: i think one of the

important myths of was that grant was detached. that he was not involved in his own administration. that he was not a hands-on president. reason it is part of the why i wanted to look at the original sources so much. one of the most important theces you can look at is secretary of state's diary. he kept a diary of all eight years. he really saw grant is a hands-on president. what has been overlooked so much is that he was very much a legislative president. he didn't sit back and wait for congress to act and say yay nay, he met with legislators all the time. he also went to the congress. there was a room in the congress at that time called the president's room. he would meet with committees, sometimes with individual senators or representatives. push hismore or less

agenda. he was a legislative president more than anybody ever realized before. brian: when we were talking about benjamin harrison commie talk about the surplus they had during his time. was 1865.888, grant your fifth chapter, inside the southern question was the other domestic agenda cited by grant was concerning the states of finances, another consequence of the war. what happened in those 20 years? charles: the united states had a surplus from 66 on, before grant was president. brian: how did they do that? charles: when i talk about the disorder state of finances, what happened during the civil war was this was the most expensive thing the united states government had ever undertaken.

taxes went up, borrowing went through the roof. it was something like eight $2 billion debt at the end of the war. this is a huge amount of money at that time. even that was not enough. the united states government began to crank out dollar bills with nothing behind them, no gold or silver. in the postwar years, they had to figure out what are we going to do with all this. how are we going to adjust all of this to peace time. forr the taxes, grant work lowering the taxes and succeeded. thergued for refinancing national debt. issue new bonds at lower interest rates, save interest payments for the government. the national debt actually went down during grants administration. currency, most people thought we need to get back to a currency where the

government will pay gold for those greenbacks so people will regard them as a valuable currency. that was pushed strong by grant, it was passed to do that. brian: which of the two men would be more entertaining at a dinner? charles: interesting question. each of them in his mind was an introvert. i think grant would probably be more interesting because once grant was relaxed with you, he was not relax with people he did not know very well. once he was relaxed, he loved to tell war stories and recount what happens during the war. he talked about personalities and was quite entertaining. rutherford b. hayes kept a diary and sometimes he would visit the white house and you could see it a amazing, this man is such wonderful, he entertains us so

of the his recounting momentous of his life. harrison would be more cerebral, grant was not an intellectual, i think harrison was much more intellectually inclined. has beenr guest professor charles calhoun, for east, a professor at carolina university. we talked about two presidents, benjamin harrison and his brand-new book this year on ulysses s. grant. thank you for joining us. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2018] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> on the next "q&a," zachery

would from the atlantic talks about his new book. that is next sunday at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. journal"'s "washington live every day with the news on policy issues that impact you. coming up monday morning as part of our campaign 2018 coverage, radio showk at with host and political analysts across the country about the 64 days until the november elections. be sure to watch "washington journal" live. join the discussion. the british house of commons remains in recess until tuesday. by ministers questions will not be shown tonight.

instead, we will bring you our original series 1968: america in turmoil, which takes a look at civil rights and race relations that year. congressman war and davidson.- warren we will be joined by kathleen and a history and public affairs professor at the university of texas at austin. we take you back to april 4, 1968 112 or -- walter concrete and formed the nation doubt martin