the white house, the supreme court, and public policy events in washington, d.c. and around the country. c-span is brought to you by your cable or satellite provider. ♪ >> this week on q&a, historian charles calhoun discusses his biography of president benjamin harrison. ♪ brian: professor charles calhoun, if you were introducing someone to benjamin harrison, what would you tell them? charles: i would tell them here is a man you can learn a lot from. he was an intellectual. he was a good student of history. he knew his country well.

it was good conversationalist in a small groups that he knew well. he wasn't so good at meeting people cold. that is one of the things about his personality that i think people have pointed out did not work well in politics. he didn't come across as a particularly warm person. that hurt him sometimes with his interrelations with political leaders in his party. once you got to know harrison, you could benefit from his friendship and understanding of his country. brian: why did you get interested in him? charles: it goes way back to when i was in college at yale. i had a seminar my junior year with a great historian. he was a specialist in the late 19th century american politics, early 20th century american politics. i was an american history major. i designed it so i would have a course my four years at yale

that would cover american history. one of that covered it was the junior seminar. i think the title was the democratic party from cleveland to wilson. it really covered everything, not just the democrats. i did a paper on the election of 1892 in indiana. that was the first semester. i did a second paper, the second semester on the election of 1888 in indiana. i began to know benjamin harrison then. i have written a good bit about him since. brian: what impacted the fact that you are from indiana that you got interested in indiana and benjamin harrison? charles: i think the way he organized it was you are going to read the cleveland papers, the harrison papers, and you will read a newspaper from your

home state. my home state was indiana. that is why i the papers on indiana and it worked. brian: why do you get interested in history in the first place? charles: when i went to college i was thinking about becoming a political science major. that is what i registered as my first semester. the historians at yale seduced me into the wonders of studying the past. history his course was great because it emphasized original research, rather than rehashing what was found in secondary sources. yale's library was great, it had all of the presidential papers. we had lots of newspapers from the period. please could do significant historical research as undergraduates. brian: i want to put on the screen a series of numbers, back in the late 1800s of elections, and have you explain it to us

and how benjamin harrison fits in. charles: these are the popular votes and the electoral votes for the elections. let's start with a little background. we often think of this era as a republican era. it is true that between johnson and wilson there was only one democrat, grover cleveland. in fact, in the late 19th century, the two major parties were very evenly balanced. just about as many republicans and democrats in the country. they were spread out over two sections. the south was solid for the democrats. in any given presidential election, they could count on a body of electoral votes. this was after 1876, certainly. the republicans could count almost as reliably on a body of electoral votes coming from the

northeast, the upper midwest, and most of the west as well. neither one of those blocks of votes was large enough to win the presidency. what you had between them was in those days called doubtful states, new york and indiana. most of the campaigning was done in those two doubtful states. that is where the preponderance was. those electoral statistics you had up there reflect -- they look like they are fairly wide apart. but in cleveland's victory in 1884, there are two states separating them, indiana and new york. both of them were quite close. in fact cleveland's victory in

, new york was something like a thousand popular votes out of one million cast. so just 550 votes the other way would have made president blaine. then you come down to the next election, harrison versus cleveland. those states were the only ones that flipped. harrison defeated cleveland. again, both of those states, new york and indiana were very close. you have basically the same blocks taking place again in the south and the north. there were some changes. because of things that happened, disenchantment in the west and other reasons harrison did not do as well as he had done in 1888. he lost illinois and wisconsin which he had won in 1888. he also lost new york and

indiana. you see a wider spread for cleveland's victory. james weaver won 22 elect for about. brian: in your research, how did they react, that somebody lost the presidency and then was reelected? charles: the democrats were very happy to win the white house back. the republicans were sorry that it did not turn out well for them. there is an old story you have probably heard that grover cleveland's wife in 1889 when the cleveland's relinquished the white house to the harrison's, she supposedly said to be servants take care of the furniture we will be back in four years. whether she said that are not, i don't know. cleveland got renominated in 1892, he was the only person they had been able to elect since really james buchanan.

they weren't going to throw him over, even though he had some problems within the party. he was a very popular democrat and did manage to get the nomination again in 1892. it was a democratic year, quite definitely. cleveland took with him into the white house in 1892 and 1893 when they took office, both the house and senate that were democratic. brian: benjamin harrison fits into the harrison family where? charles: he is a part of the family that goes way back in american history. in colonial virginia there were five benjamin harrison's in succession. benjamin harrison the fifth was a signer of the declaration of independence. he was governor of the first state of virginia. his son was william henry harrison.

he was president in 1841, just for a month. his son was john scott harrison, who was a congressman from ohio for two terms. his son was benjamin harrison, the president. brian: what is the difference between a whig and a republican? charles: they began to call themselves whigs in the mid 1830's, they lasted until the mid-1850's. they came up as an opposition to andrew jackson. they had a program too. henry clay was the great philosopher of the whig party. i guess you could say the great intellectual and policy leader. a very strong leader.

very strong leader in the american bank, the u.s. bank, and henry clay was one of benjamin harrison's heroes. the whigs in 1852 had a disastrous election. their candidate lost and the party basically fell apart. in large part because of the slavery issue. it was a national party, there were northern whigs and southern whigs. the northern weeks believed that it was no longer an efficient vehicle for opposing slavery and southern whigs did not want to continue to affiliate with people who felt that way. the party fell apart. there were other elements, the temperance movement had to look for the whigs to being part of the temperance movement.

anti- immigration sentiment was rising in the 1850's. the whigs had more or less fallen in with that kind of attitude. some people who felt they were anti-immigrant felt they were not doing an effective job. those elements of the whig party fell apart. they felt they were not getting what they wanted from the whig party and it did collapse. in the north, the whig party was replaced by the republican party. the birth of the republican party if you will was the pass of the kansas to nebraska act which opened in new territory. previously from which is slavery was barred into which slavery would now be possible, that sent north many of them , wild. the repeal of the missouri compromise. brian: benjamin harrison grew up

around cincinnati but went to miami of ohio. eventually moved to indiana. why did he move away from his family's tradition? charles: he wanted to be out on his own, to prove himself. he had a cousin living in indianapolis already. he said if you're looking for a place to land, this is a good spot. there are lots of good people here. harrison had just passed the bar, you will find the bar is full of men who are like-minded, i think he will flourish here. so he and his wife did move. brian: where did he meet caroline? charles: caroline was the daughter of one of his

professors at a place called farmers college. this was where he went to college for the first two years, which was closer to cincinnati. harrison had a habit of visiting more and more once he met his daughter. it became a love affair really, he fell for her. harrison was very quiet, sort of an introverted person. she sort of brought it out of himself a little bit. she was much livelier, had a good sense of humor. he did enjoy her company. it is very interesting, she moved to oxford first. her father moved his -- he started a female seminary there. she was going to be a student there. harrison was at farmers college

near cincinnati. the professor said we hope you will stay here, can see was thinking about going to maybe to be an oxford. they said no, please state. he said no, i think i'm going to go up there. he did and he graduated third in his class. of course, his relationship with caroline grew deeper and deeper. brian: i understand that you're retired in 2014? charles: that is correct. brian: where did you do most of the teaching and what did you teach? charles: i taught most of my career at east carolina university, which is in north carolina. i am a specialist in late 19th century america. i did most of that teaching in that area. brian: any idea why that era was what you were most interested in? charles: going back to that course i took at yale it just sort of gravity. -- just sort of grabbed me.

perhaps if i'd taken a different junior seminar i would've had a different specialty. the kind of research i was able to do, it was a wonderful period to do research in. nobody had a telephone or significantly -- or of any significant use. all of the communication is really on paper. many, many, many of the politicians have papers collections that one can dig into very deeply. the library of congress manuscript room is really my second home. they had tons of papers collections there, harrison's has been microfilmed. and so have cleveland's. it was a period where you could get a handle on the research material. i marvel at my 20th and 21st century colleagues who have so much material to try and understand and assimilate into

so many different formats. brian: you said something when you appeared at the smithsonian in february talking about your new book on grant that i wrote down and i wanted to ask you to explain. i don't remember the date, you said it when selfishness became enshrined in our country, do you remember the date was that you suggested that selfishness became enshrined in our country? charles: i think i may said the 1980's. in that decade there seems to be more emphasis on looking out for number one. i think it sort of debate in the country that we haven't completely gotten rid of it, i

don't think we are anywhere close to getting rid of it. it seemed to me that some of the political leaders at the time were touting policies that were aimed at lining your own pockets, rather than worrying about the next person. as opposed to an ethic that seemed purveyed in the 1960's. they were more willing to use the government to help folks. brian: go back to the harrison years. one of the things you write a lot about in your book on benjamin harrison is the religion of the family and the religion of a lot of these schools in the united states and the colleges. i think you point out at one

point that he was born again or he had a particular event. charles: that was in college. it was not unusual -- miami was a presbyterian dominated school. it was not unusual to have a revival meetings. itinerant preachers coming in and saving souls. harrison attended one of those meetings and essentially was born again as a result of that. he remained committed to the faith throughout his life. brian: what impact that have on politics of those days? 1888-92? charles: the united states goes through periods of anti-catholicism, this was a.

-- this was a period when the american protective association was a gaining some steam. this was an anti-catholic organization. i don't think harrison played on that at all, or meant to in any sense. religion was not really centerstage in that election. economic issues were much more important. brian: you have in the back of your book a milestone couple of pages telling us the different important dates in harrison's life. i just want to read several have you put them in context. in 1872, he loses the republican gubernatorial nomination in indiana. in 1876, he replaces republican nominee for governor and it loses general election. in 1881, the united states senator from indiana -- this is interesting, in 1887 loses bid

for reelection of the senate and turns around the sheer and becomes president of the united states. he sounds like a loser. charles: harrison's career evolved over time. in 1872 he had held a state office prior to that. he was elected to the reporter of the state supreme court. he held that job until he went into the army and held it after he came back from the war. he was a very well-known lawyer. in 1872 he was giving speeches for the party. he thought he was in good position to run for governor. he was not particularly well liked by the boss of the republican party in indiana, the senator. although harrison had lots of support for the nomination in 1872, it sort of circulated through the hallways at the convention that morton was not

too keen on this guy. in 1876, he was tempted to run for the nomination again. they nominated someone else. he had to resign from the ticket because of conflict of interest charges. in the early fall, the republican state committee said to harrison, we need you, can you step in and take over. he made a valiant effort. he fought very hard, gave lots of speeches. it was basically a democratic year in indiana that year. he came fairly close to winning. after that, he went out and campaigned in other states for presidential candidate rutherford b hayes. this is what began to get him a national reputation. oliver morton died the next year, that sort of gave harrison the opportunity to move as the

leader of the republican party. when there was a seat open in the senate in 1881, after the 1880 election campaign, the republicans won it. harrison through in his hat, garfield as presidential elect said it you want to come in the cabinet? and he said he would rather be in the senate. he won the senate seat relatively easily. he held the senate seat for six years. then, in 1885, the democratic legislator in indiana gerrymandered districts so that in 1886, when it got to choose the senator again, the democrats won that very narrowly. what is interesting is --

had a vigorous effort on behalf of the party spoke all , over the state and said he by a machine to multiply his letters to get them out to as many people as he could. he really got a lot of national attention for that campaign. when the votes were counted, all the people running for the legislature on the republican side they got 10,000 more votes, but because of the gerrymander, the democrats had more seat and they elected their man. narrowly. harrison lost his senate seat the gained lots of reputation nationally. why was that important for running for president? i would say we would have to keep in mind that indiana was one of those swing states. here's a guy who could work really hard in indiana.

who can perhaps win indiana in 1888. he might be someone we want to take seriously in looking at candidates for 1888. brian: did he actively run for the nomination in 1888? did he actively run around the country campaigning when he won? charles: no. he did not actively run in the sense of personally hunting for delegates. he had a good team. it was headed up by a man who managed his preconvention campaign. harrison himself did cultivate good relations as best as he could with supporters of james g blaine. he had withdrawn from the 1888 race. brian: we talk about him all the time.

we don't know much about him. he ran in 1884 and lost and become the secretary of state when harrison is elected? charles: blaine really is one of the most interesting characters. he was speaker of the house for six years. in 1876 he was the front runner for the republican nomination and lost it to rutherford b. hayes. there were some ethical charges against him that hurt him very seriously as it turned out. in 1880, he sought the nomination again. this time he had a knockdown fight with ulysses s grant. they came to a deadlock and garfield was nominated as a dark horse, so blaine became garfield secretary of state. he didn't keep the job long because garfield was assassinated.

he was mr. republican really and in many people's eyes. the harrison people in 1888 realized that you have to cultivate these people. they will have so much to say about who wins this nomination. what they wanted to do was to say it is a wide-open convention, which it was. i think 14 people were voted for on the first ballot. the idea for the harrison people was let's line-up second choice people and see what we could do to get them after several ballots to come over to us. the key to that strategy was the blaine contingent. harrison did not travel around the country after he was nominated. blaine had done that in 1884. he made speeches on a six-week tour.

at the very end of the tour, in new york, there was a couple of serious gaffes that some people say cost him the election. harrison said i will not travel, a candidate who stays at home may need a fool, candidate who travels will definitely need a fool. by fool he meant a person in blaine's presence in 1884 before the election let out an anti-catholic slur. harrison said i am not going to travel, what i will do is stay in indianapolis. when he was nominated he was in indianapolis. at his house, he gave four speeches that they. his campaign people said this is the thing to do. let people come to you. over the next four or five months until the election, that

is what happened. harrison stayed home, slept in his own bed, he would meet these delegations from around the state, from around the country. often it would be special interest groups, coal miners, wheat farmers, cotton farmers. they would come and harrison would give them a short speech, mostly attuned to their own interests. he had his own stenographer take down what he said. then he would go over what he said and made it sure it was what he wanted people to read. they would give it to the associated press the next morning, it is in the newspapers all over the country. it was not a relaxing campaign but at least it did not have a lot of travel, worries, headaches, and fatigue. brian: i want to throw those three elections back on the screen to look at the numbers.

if you look at 1888 when he was elected, he did not get the popular vote. charles: that is correct, i'm glad you pointed that out. this is another thing we have to remember about politics at that time. in the south, blacks were pretty much eliminated from voting after the collapse in reconstruction efforts. what that meant was the democrats could rack up huge margins in the south. when you counted all the states together, cleveland did in fact have a majority -- not a majority but a plurality. 90,000 votes more than harrison in the national popular vote. in the states that harrison won in the north and the west, the margins were closer. if you look outside of the states that had slavery before,

if you take all the other states, harrison won a plurality in those states of something like 450,000. where there were competitive elections, harrison did much better in the popular vote. brian: in 1892, if the populist candidate had not run, who would have gotten those votes? charles: he didn't get enough to flip the presidency. remember, is 277-145 for harrison. in some states the populists worked with republicans, in other states they worked with democrats. it sort of the varied from state to state. it was not decisive. there were too many other things going on that militated against

harrison. brian: who was responsible for this, when he was president he pointed out that there were six states added to the union. north dakota, south dakota, montana, washington, idaho, and wyoming. how much should harrison have to do that? charles: when he was in the senate he was on the territories committee. he had actually tried to get the dakotas in earlier. politics always played into the admission of states. the dakota territories, of course a very small population but they would have if you elect -- a few electoral votes which could mean a lot in that era. it was because they were largely republican. the democratic house of representatives, prior to harrison would not go along with legislation to admit those states.

this is something else that is important to remember about harrison's term, when he was elected in 1888, he carried with him both houses of the congress. they were both republican. this was the first time you had that since 1875. one of the things they wanted to do was follow through in admitting those states that democrats had been blocking so they did come into the union. some of the republicans did give give some votes to weaver in 1892. brian: you did point out that in his four years he had four nominations to the supreme court. these are people i have heard very little about. who were those folks and how did he get four? charles: he got four because four people died.

he had the opportunity to appoint four. the one that you probably have heard of but don't remember very well because we don't remember is the name on plessy versus ferguson. that is henry brown. he was from michigan. all of them were conservative jurists. pretty much they were not in the business of lightning the areas of which government could take action. they were of their time, shall we say. brian: if you had to name three or four things that harrison accomplished, that we might feel to this day, what would they be? charles: the thing we would feel to this day, may not have the most important at the time but is still with us today. that is the sherman antitrust act.

this is a period where the trusts are merging. trust is a generic term for these large consolidated businesses standard oil, , cottonseed oil, the whiskey trust, all of these things, there's a growing sense in the country that they are dominating the economy more and more. both parties said that we need to do something about these consolidations. there have been efforts at the state level, but these large corporations were of course doing business across state lines. the constitution says commerce between the states shall be regulated by congress. there was a movement that something should be done to corral these monster trusts. harrison certainly believe that. in his inaugural address, his first state of the union message delivered on paper, not in person in those days in a

december of 1889. he was behind legislation. the spearhead, although he had other help too, was john sherman, a senator from ohio. brian: is that william tecumseh sherman's brother? charles: that is correct. sherman had a bill in the previous congress, he put in practically the same bill under harrison, this time there was a greater chance of getting through. sherman's original idea was to include production in the things that we can regulate. consolidations in production. others in congress said no, the constitution says that congress can regulate commerce between the states and foreign trade. but production, it was felt that

regulation of business and production should remain with the states. that is the way the sherman antitrust act was written. combinations in restraint of trade or commerce were outlawed. certain penalties were there. harrison agreed that it would have been better if we could've put production and there, but it wouldn't have made it through congress. brian: what else did he do? charles: he was very instrumental in pushing through the mckinley tariff act. of course today we hear a lot about tariffs. it used to be that when we talked about the tariff issue of the late 19th century, eyes would glaze over and say why is that so important. i think we have a greater appreciation of why regulation of trade is important. harrison was certainly in the forefront of pushing for a protective tariff. brian: let me interrupt again. that is william mckinley, he was in the house of representatives.

what was his job that got him into the tariff business? charles: he was a representative from ohio. sometimes representatives adopt a specialty. ,e was on the ways and means and the house was usually a democratic. he was a minority member. he was chair of the committee in his first two of the ways and means during harrison's term. he was the real point man for developing this act. it was a compensated piece of legislation. the problem that lay behind this legislation and both parties were wrestling with it was that the united states'government was running a surplus. i actually use the word surplus, not deficit. something like 1866, the united states government ran a surplus, it had grown quite large by the 1880's. the view was you need to get that money in the economy, you should not be taking all that money out of the economy.

the republicans who agreed with that also felt you need to have a protective tariff to protect industry from foreign competition, mainly from british manufacturers and of course the people who work in the factories. how can you adjust the tariff so you are not collecting as much revenue, therefore reducing the surplus? they came up with a clever kind of way of doing this. one was to raise rates so high that it cut off the imports and said we are not going to pay them. that reduce revenue. it put sugar, a very important commodity on the free list, do not charge any tariff at all. that will reduce the revenue. what about the sugar producers in louisiana, won't they be hurt from sugar producers elsewhere?

yes, so we will pay louisiana in sugar producers a bounty that will take away from the surplus. then, farmers that did not like the tariff because it meant they paid a lot of money for machinery, that they did produce themselves. blaine and harrison worked out a scheme where they could give the farmers reciprocity. let's give them the power to negotiate agreements with other countries to open up their markets for our farm products. it was much more complicated than people i think tend to realize. it was industrial policy that the united states government actively tried to frame legislation to better the economy. he also was a very strong advocate of black writes,

-- black writes -- black rights. particularly voting rights. brian: blacks could not vote at all? charles: in the south, various mechanisms were developing, mostly intimidation to prevent blacks from voting. at that time, if blacks in the south were permitted to vote they would have voted overwhelmingly republican. there is a political motive here as well. but harrison definitely believed that something should be done to protect the right to vote. why wasn't anything done earlier? we tend to think reconstruction ended in 1876. part of the reason nothing was done since 1875 was that the democrats had house control. they also had the presidency. they were against supporting black voting rights. when harrison he came president

they said we can do something. we are now in a position to do something. the drafting of the legislation fell to a committee headed by a young representative from massachusetts. and he put together a piece of legislation that was to say federal supervisors could be called in in some situations in southern states to watch over elections. they expanded that legislation in such a way that not only would federal supervisors play a more direct role in watching registration, voting, counting, this was also two congressional elections. those were the only ones that the constitution really

recognize that congress could control directly. the bill said that the certification of elections, if there was some question about the state certification board, then a federal board of canvassers could certify. this was really the essence of that bill. it took the final certification of congressional elections out of the hands of state officials in the south who were overwhelmingly democratic and overwhelmingly against black voting. it put in the hands of canvassing boards and federal judges. that is why the democrats opposed it so vehemently and were willing to do just about anything to stop it and they were able to prevent its

passage. largely through the alliance of southern democrats and western silver rights. brian: there's a lot of your book about benjamin harrison, i want you to walk us through the relationship with his wife caroline. his two kids and his subsequent second marriage. charles: we talked about harrison meeting caroline in his college days. i think he was only 20 years old when they got married, they were quite young. he had the sense that caroline at the female institute was taking over teaching duties. she was ill and harrison convinced himself that unless i marry this woman she is going to die. an interesting notion, but he did marry her, they had a very happy marriage in indianapolis. it was probably the place that

caroline liked the most. she had a good life there. they had a two children, russell and mary. they had a third child in 1861 who died right after birth. they moved to the white house in 1889. caroline was interesting as first lady, she did all the hostess duties, she had her daughter help her and a niece help her and the cabinet ladies help her. she was not a terribly comfortable person in the public role of the first lady. she likes to paint china and so forth. she was something of an artist. they had at lots of family living in the white house. it was quite cramped. caroline harrison conceived this idea that what you needed to do was expand the white house. she worked with committees in congress to develop an elaborate

programs that would have changed the white house into a quadrangle. the drawings were made. as architectural historians say it was a monstrosity. it's one of the great things that happened that it did happen. she did get some money to refurbish the white house. in assisting her in her social duties was a niece, her sister's daughter. she was a widow, she was a widow for six or eight years by this time. her husband died very early in their marriage. she was at loose ends and she didn't -- she eventually moved to washington, she spent a lot of time at the white house, there was a short period where she lived there. she was on the scene during 1888

during the campaign, she helped with the social duties. harrison actually enjoyed her company quite a bit. he likes to take walks with her. she knew enough not to say much. she would play billiards with him. she became quite close with the president. caroline harrison, in 1892, developed tuberculosis. it went progressively downhill. she was the person who put together the origins of the white house china exhibits. she did a lot of rummaging around in the basement and the attics of the white house. some people said she got tuberculosis this way. she went down hill through 1892.

she was moved to the adirondacks for the cool, fresh air. he is still in office, this is during the campaign for reelection. this is 1892. in october, she said she would like to go back to the white house and she did in fact die in the white house on october 25, 1892. this was a couple weeks before the election. caroline's own daughter was married. she had helped nurse caroline. she was very close to the family. harrison, of course was a devastated by the death of his wife. this was two weeks before the election. he lost the election so was a bleak time in his life.

he went back to indianapolis and tried to put things together. his daughter mary moved with him. she helped him refurbish the house and redecorate. then harrison began to ask mame to come visit her. they exchanged visits back and forth when she was living in new york. they did get married in 1896. brian: he was 62, she was 37 according to your book. russell, his daughter, and his son were older than his new wife. charles: russell certainly was. married the daughter was almost the same age. i think there was four weeks difference in their ages. brian: what was their reaction? charles: they opposed the second marriage vehemently. apparent itn it was

was coming on mary, the daughter left the harrison house in indianapolis and moved out her possessions. russell also moved out. they did not attend the wedding in new york. it was quite a strain. it was tragic in a sense. he wrote that i can't let them get in my way of my love for you. brian: five years later he dies, what are the circumstances? charles: harrison went back to work in the law. he worked very hard. not unusual at that time, he did not particularly take terrific care of himself. the diets in those days they were not particularly wholesome. he got pneumonia in the winter of 1901.

it was a cold to begin with and it developed into pneumonia and he did die. and the children were not. brian: your book you wrote a number of years ago is still available as some of the presidential series. since then, you have a 2018 brand-new book, i want our viewers know that they can find about an hour and 40 minutes of you talking in the smithsonian about your book on ulysses s. grant. it is quite an in-depth discussion. i want to ask you about something before we close this out. you write something in the preface of the ulysses s. grant book, no scholarly work focusing on grant presidency has appeared since the 1930's was one of the reasons you wrote this.

there have been to grant books as you know in the last year and a half, i assume the other books are not known as scholarly books on grant, is that correct? charles: that is correct. brian: what does that mean? charles: a historian comes to his work full of skepticism. after the seminar that i took at yale, one of the things he drilled into us was go to the original resources. i think that popular writers are willing more often to use secondary sources, more convenient sources. it took about five years to research this book. i like to say the grant book took as long me to produce as grant was in the white house practically. you have to run down -- grant's

administration was so encrusted with myth and controversy that i felt the obligation to unpack it all and to go to the original sources. i think that is one of the key distinctions between a popular writer and a scholarly approach. not that a scholarly approach isn't, we hope well written and readable. but, the obligation is to leave no stone unturned. that is really what drove me. brian: all of a sudden out of nowhere, three major books on it ulysses s. grant and 2017 and 18, what is going on? charles: i think his reputation as you know from the c-span surveys has gone up over the years. i think a major part of it is the fact that grant is becoming much more recognized as a defender of african-american's rights.

the civil rights movement not only obviously was fighting for civil rights at the time, it served as an inspiration for people to take another look at reconstruction and what it meant and what was attempted at that time. the great book reconstruction, which came out in the 1980's was an inspiration for others to examine the whole period much more closely. grant was a major figure in reconstruction. if anything, what he did on behalf of blacks and their right to vote, ultimately not successful, what he tried to do has given him much more visibility and interest. brian: was the biggest myth that you are able to deal with on your book on grant? charles: i think one of the most important myths of was that grant was detached. that he was not involved in his own administration.

that he was not a hands-on president. i think it is part of the reason why i wanted to look at the original sources so much. what did this guy do? one of the most important sources you can look at is the secretary of state's diary. he kept a diary of all eight years. he really saw grant is a hands-on president. what is interesting about grant, and what has been overlooked so much is that he was very much a legislative president. he didn't sit back and wait for congress to act and say yay or nay, he met with legislators all the time. senators and representatives in the white house and he also went to the congress. there was a room in the congress at that time called the president's room. he would meet with committees, sometimes with individual senators or representatives. he would more or less push his agenda. he was a legislative president

more than anybody ever realized before. brian: when we were talking , you benjamin harrison talk about the surplus they had during his time. this was 1888, grant was 1865. your fifth chapter, inside the southern question was the other domestic agenda cited by grant in his inaugural address concerned the states of finances, another consequence of the war. what happened in those 20 years? charles: the united states had a surplus from 66 on, before grant was president. brian: how did they do that? charles: when i talk about the disorder state of finances, what happened during the civil war was this was the most expensive thing the united states government had ever undertaken. taxes went up, borrowing went

through the roof. it was something like a $2 billion debt at the end of the war. this is a huge amount of money at that time. even that was not enough. the united states government began to crank out dollar bills with nothing behind them, no gold or silver. in the postwar years, they had to figure out what are we going to do with all this. how are we going to adjust all of this to peace time. lower the taxes, grant work for lowering the taxes and succeeded. he argued for refinancing the national debt. that is, issue new bonds at lower interest rates, save interest payments for the government. the national debt actually went down during grant's administration. the unbacked currency, most people thought we need to get back to a currency where the government will pay gold for those greenbacks so people will regard them as a valuable

currency. that was pushed strong by grant, it was passed to do that. brian: which of the two men would be more entertaining at a dinner? charles: interesting question. each of them in his mind was an introvert. i think grant would probably be more interesting because once grant was relaxed with you, he was not relax with people he did not know very well. in that way he is like harrison. once he was relaxed, he loved to tell war stories and recount what happens during the war. he talked about personalities and was quite entertaining. rutherford b. hayes kept a diary and sometimes he would visit the white house and you could see it is amazing, this man is such a wonderful, he entertains us so well in his recounting of the

momentous of his life. harrison would be more cerebral, grant was not an intellectual, i think harrison was much more intellectually inclined. brian: our guest has been professor charles calhoun, for years, a professor at east carolina university. we talked about two presidents, benjamin harrison and his brand-new book this year on ulysses s. grant. thank you for joining us. ♪ [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2018] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> programs are also available as c-span podcasts. >> on the next q and a,

second-rate would with the atlantic talks about his new uncensored, the intersection of black and white america. that is next sunday at 8 p.m. eastern here on c-span. here on c-span, washington journal is next. that's followed by our recent visit to alaska as part of c-span's cities tour. then, former trump white house advisor sebastian gorka talks the trump presidency and potential threats to the u.s. and later, former president barack obama speaks at an event in south africa honoring the life and legacy of nelson mandela. election day is nearly two months away, and over the next three hours on washington journal, we will get your

andtion to campaign 2018 also hear from various radio talkshow host from around the country sharing their thoughts on the upcoming midterms. ♪ host: good morning. we are just over two months before the midterm elections prayed64 -- elections. 64 days to be exact breed of the house said to be in a total of legislativetive -- days in september. the hearing for brett kavanaugh to serve on the u.s. supreme court. we will be live from the senate judiciary committee. a traditional start of the political season, we want to take a look at the issues driving this election. the confirmation of brett kavanaugh is one of those