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look at codebreakers during world war ii and the cold war. eliza monday joins us to talk about her article, "the woman codebreakers who unmasked soviet spies," liza: there was a small group of women who started breaking russian messages during world war ii, and it continued through the cold war. and most of them were former school teachers which is to be an incredible story. what makes schoolteachers useful and how did the government find them? you were a woman in 1943, schoolteacher was pretty much the only college-graduate job you could get. they had mastered both math and language. itsu.s. army sent handsomest, young army officers

to sort of station themselves at post offices and hotels to lower these schoolteachers to washington because they thought that women would want to get married and a good-looking man would be an inducement. in fact most of the women who broke the russian coded messages never married, because the work was so top-secret they felt they have to cut -- they felt they had to compartmentalize their lives. host: when the army was recruiting these women, did they tell them they were going to be codebreakers? liza: no, they had no idea what they were getting into. they came to washington thinking be doing going to something patriotic for the war effort. and they had to sign a loyalty of to the government and the secrecy oath, in which they understood that the talk about the work would be an act of treason and more time and the penalty for treason was death. so whatever they were doing, they knew what the penalty was for talking. and what were some successes these women

codebreakers achieved? liza: during the war we were breaking japanese and german and anstems extraordinary successful way that helped us win the war and helped to shorten the war. but this group of women decoding soviet messages stayed on after achieved remarkable success in breaking the soviet system that revealed soviets who work spying during the war. this was called to the venona project, one of the biggest crypto successes in u.s. history. it was top, top secret. host: we are talking with author undy. m if you are in the eastern or central time zone, call in at (202) 748-8000. in the mountain or pacific time zone, call-in at (202) 748-8001.

and you can always reach us on social media and facebook.com/c-span. you said a lot of these women who worked on the venona project never got married. did their families know what they were doing? families and their always wondered. pieceinterviewed for this of woman named angie who is 100 years old, i went to her 100th birthday party last weekend. and there were always the glamorous aunt and her families. their families were dying to during thehey did 1940's and 1950's and 1960's, and at the women never cracked. the never told their families. and then the project was declassified in 1995 but even then it was difficult to get these women to yield up any secrets. host: were these women part of the washington social circle?

liza: great question. there were part of the community great friendship group unto themselves. they went bowling, playing bridge, went to the beauty parlor. when it was a party last week -- when i was at the party last -- i met the woman who dressed their hair. she said i just thought they were all friends. they had a tight friendship circle. host: talk about the process of how these women worked. were they working with other codebreakers on other projects or were they somewhere by themselves. liza: very compartmentalized. at first they started in a former girls school in arlington, virginia, and then moved to fort meade, maryland. their operation became the nsa. our national security the descendent agency of code breaking during the war. they worked in maryland, essentially. i interviewed the nephew of

angie and sometimes he would give her a ride to fort meade and at the time the building wasn't marked, i and all he knew was that on its angie was unt r.g.ring -- an was disappearing into some mysterious government building. and many, many spies. julius rosenberg was one of the best known. donna mclain was a british spy. a german born scientist who was passing atomic secrets. the soviets desperately wanted to know about our atomic research during world war ii. they had spies in this country, they recruited people in this country, so many, many names were exposed as a result of reading these venona messages. host: how high up in the government did, did everyone in the u.s. government know these women were working on this, or was it a secret cap from the white house?

liza: it's believed president truman may not have known about the venona project. there was concern about perhaps penetration of the white house. it's impossible to overstate how top-secret the venona project was, in an already secret code breaking operation. they were like the innermost cell. even other people working at arlington hall or later the nsa, couldn't come into the physical space they were working in. host: let's go to howard from fort lauderdale, florida. good morning. i was a radioman on a summary -- on a submarine, and i used to fix all the cryptology equipment, which was the enigma machines found on german submarines. those were the forerunners of modern encryption that i was

trained to fix, as a submarine technician. it's very interesting. right.hat's these women were stripping and encryption out of soviet messages. and the soviets did not use a machine. the germans used the enigma machine you mentioned. the soviets did it all with pen and paper and something called one time pads that had the encryption on them. they reused a few of these pads, and that was all it took for the american codebreakers to be able to break into this incredible y difficult system. the: i was fascinated by part of your article that said they had to be sure other people in their complex didn't see what they were doing. and a russian plant actually make it -- actually made it inside. liza: at the time at arlington hall, there was a man who was spying for the soviets william y for the soviets.

and he did get the message that we had broken their system and they stopped using that system. and angie was suspicious of him. her supervisor warned him to cover her work whenever he came by and she did. she was very effective. so the soviets realized they that we wereze breaking the system. but we still had all their messages from world war ii with these names in them. and we went back and back and back over decades, working with the fbi to uncover more names in the messages. so even the soviets -- even though the soviets stopped using that system, we were still able to mind that trove. and again, it took decades. host: and because of the secrecy, it was sometimes hard for americans to use this information. in your article you mentioned prosecutions were difficult. it was so sensitive that was withheld as evidence, but sometimes the fbi could produce

corroborating information to disguise where the data had originated. this set the pattern for two years of investigations and prosecutions. so a lot of times prosecutors didn't know the venona project was hitting them information. liza: correct. you want to keep that intelligent and not have it be known that you are continuing to gather intelligence. so even though they had concrete names in these messages, they couldn't produce that in court. but the codebreakers worked closely with the of the eye -- closely with the fbi, when they could come in to corroborate the charges. bill is calling from illinois. good morning. caller: i was just wondering what the difference between what was going on at bletchley park and what was going on in the venona project. in other words, were these or was it alls wireless?

and what were the differences exactly, on the material these people were working on? are any of these archived records available to the public to see exactly some of the things that were done, or is that not the case? they are available. we worked closely with the british at bletchley park. our ownur, essentially bletchley park. the army and navy had massive code breaking operations. we worked closely with the british. to answer your question, soviet messages were transmitted often by cable, by telegram. during world war ii there was an office of censorship that would look at every cable going to an international destination. and if they could see it was in it toer, they would send the code breaking operation. that's one reason the cipher had

to be so good, because they knew we would be collecting these messages and trying to break them. and you can look at the actual venona decrypts, just google venona national security agency. there is a book authored by louis benson and mike warner i think, that has the actual messages in it. so you can read them, and there's a collection also at the national archives. so it has been declassified and it's available. host: how long has it been declassified? and when did the venona project shut down? set down in the 1980. that's when a lot of these women retired. they were working and archaic system. by 1980 they were working messages that traveled in 1943. technology had advanced. once itelry workers, was rolled up in 1980, some of the women retired because they

felt like they wouldn't be able to transfer their incredible skills to another project. and it was declassified in 1995. host: laura is calling from freud, michigan. caller: i love c-span. there are so many different things we can learn about. i'm wondering that since we here in this country care about the spies that are spying about thentry -- hear spies that are spying on our country, i'm wondering if there are counterparts in the same country that do the same aim, spy on us, code breaking, and are they prevalent throughout the world? i imagine small countries have significantttle, part of something that they might cooperate?

liza: sure. it is a constant spy versus spy across the world. countries have their codebreakers, we have a national security agency, everybody is trying to listen to everybody else and hack in to everybody else's communication systems. and to your point about smaller countries, some of our most important code breaking breakthroughs were made by poland. small countries surrounded by large, menacing neighbors like germany and the soviet union, those small countries are very nervous about those countries. poland had a brilliant code breaking bureau that achieved a number of breakthroughs on the enigma machine and ultimately shared that information with the french and the british, even as the country was falling to the british invasion. -- falling to the german invasion. host: were they ever publicly acknowledged for their work? did get awards within the nsa. they weren't publicly

acknowledged. they didn't expect to be. we have some money and public service now in the intelligence community who understand they are not going to get credit for their work. but i think women in particular, and women of that era in particular, did not expect accolades in public life and they did not receive accolades in public life. people who know about venona often know about the name meredith gardner. he was a linguist who was able figures outk, which the names and he is the most famous name associated with the project, but the women were doing hard analytic work, working closely with merrick -- -- working closely with meredith gardner and others. and we are coming to understand now how important rooms full of women have been to american history and to security and freedom. host: carol is calling from texas. carol, good morning. caller: good morning.

what a fascinating story, and it reminds me of many of the stories that have come out of women doing the job of man, because the men were not available, they were at war. i'm curious that you say many of them different -- many of them did not marry. was this a conscious choice on their part? liza: yes, it was a conscious choice. the women understood. just as you say, during world war ii we had women running the factories and also had women doing a lot of brainwork, a lot of stem work during the war. and after the war there was a big push to get women out of the factories and out of the offices. there was government propaganda to encourage them to go back home. so these women understood if they got married and had children, they would be expected to quit work and stay home with their families. this was the height of the baby-boom, the 1950's and 1960's. so they understood the really

needed a way to married themselves to their work. there were also very leery of marrying or dating the wrong person. nanny interviewed angie in downtown washington, she pointed to the windows of apartments were soviet diplomats lived during the cold war. she was always afraid of meeting the wrong person. so the women formed a tight friendship group with each other and had a great time, traveled a lot, were beloved by their big families. they generally came from big families and had lots of nieces who would visit them in washington, and these people thought that these women were the sophisticated element of these families. if these children were growing up in rural america they could come and visit aunt angie and aunt jean and see the big city in washington and may become to graduate school here. so they were not without family life, but they made a conscious decision to stay single. were they recruited from

any specific part of america, or did they come from everywhere? beginning,e regulations can find the women to come from the south so a lot of them came from virginia and west virginia. but during world war ii, as we needed more codebreakers, the army spread out and recruited from all over the country. a lot of these women were from texas, virginia, the rural south . they were very patriotic. they came from patriotic families. they believed very strongly in their work. was it a lifetime commitment or did you have women who came and left to do other things? liza: a lifetime commitment, the venona women. was recognized as better -- the wife was amazing russian linguist -- generally, if they married

and had children, the woman would leave work and stay home. host: mill the calling from florida. caller: good morning. i know you said the army officers were the ones going out and recruiting these women. do you have any documentation reads anything about who exactly came up with the idea? why did they feel in need to keep it secret from the administration, president truman? did other subsequent administrations -- were they aware of it or not aware of it? i bring it up with what's happening now with all this shadow government, was there a concern during that time? guest: right. the topic of russian spying is always with us. there was enormous fear during the war and after the war that

the white house might've been penetrated and was. it's impossible to overstate the secrecy that surrounded this project and the fear that we couldn't have the soviets know that we were breaking their system. they were our allies during the war. it was a constant effort to keep the lid on this operation. host: let's go to al calling from missouri. good morning. caller: good morning. it may have been a rumor way back, but was there talk at one time that churchill made the statement that the codebreakers were so secretive that they never got around to giving the government a lot of information that the government needed? in the second world war, he swore to take a different approach to codebreakers. --st: i'm not an expert there was important code thating during world war i

had a major impact on battles. opponent was an avid proponent ofers -- codebreakers. he deeply recognized the importance of the intelligence the allies were getting from the anomie messages -- enemy messages. host: electra calling from new york. caller: i remember this period very well. it further conforms the horror the femalesod that ized every bit mccarth as the males. all genders have the same aggression. patriotism, my foot.

what about internationalism? host: one of the things i noticed in your article was this was during the mccarthyism era. these women knew things the general public didn't know and couldn't say. in findingnvolved some of the people that mccarthy was talking about? guest: they knew. they were involved in reading the messages. as american society was finger-pointing, innocent people were targeted, some guilty people got away because these messages couldn't be produced in court. it was a very toxic time. what was in the messages and they couldn't talk about it. host: let's go to patricia calling from syracuse, new york. good morning. caller: good morning.

i should tell you that my mother was in the navy during world war ii. so was my father. she worked in codes and ciphers out of charleston, south carolina. guest: i'm grateful for her service and for your family. host: she was the first group of women sworn into the navy not as a nurse but as an officer and a gentleman and she was proud of that. guest: world war ii was a tipping point for women in the the waves were incredibly important in showing the navy and u.s. military what women could do. membersre these women of the military or civilians working for the government? guest: u.s. navy recruited women as good breakers to break the japanese naval code system and then work on encoding our systems as well. the navy wanted its women in uniform. those women joined the waves and became naval officers.

the army prefer to keep its code breaking operations civilian. there was something to be said for both methods. in the army operations, there were some 22-year-old brilliant young women, including the first deputy director of the nsa. she was directing a major unit. youou had civilian units, might have a 22-year-old woman in charge. those female officers -- the men were off fighting and the women were here in washington. those women rose really high and became lieutenants and sometimes higher than that. host: sal calling from north dakota. good morning. caller: good morning. great topic you guys are discussing. number one, i will be honest with you guys, i'm a little biased, i am native american.

first thing i wanted to let you know is native americans are the largest population that have applied to and served their into the utmost what they could do. i wanted to touch on that. , where doeakers, wow i begin? their service to the country, i don't think it could ever be measured. they have done an excellent job for the country. what i didn't agree with was our so-called president trump when they had the attack with -- he kept referring to the one lady is pocahontas, . that is really disrespectful. women who were in the

verona project, what was the toll that being in this secretive project -- of being in this secretive project on their lives? guest: that's interesting. i do have one thing to say about the caller's comment. the women and the toll it took, code breaking was incredibly stressful. lives were at stake. during the cold war, our reputations were at stake. there were a number of codebreakers who had nervous breakdowns, became alcoholics, and ultimately buckled under the stress. the women, not so much. i think it was because of their friendship with each other, the way they socialized. i didn't hear a lot of talk about psychological and mental stress. one of the things your caller mentioned that i wanted to speak to, speaking as a native

american, these navajo code talkers during world war ii were native american men working in the pacific giving us a coded system that couldn't be patriotism-- their of how world war ii was a time of inclusion. it was a shining moment of inclusion and we are finally recognizing that fact. groups that may be didn't have as much reason to be patriotic but were. host: we want to say thank you for a great conversation, a great article and a great topic. thank you to liza mundnd

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