for republican senate candidate representative marsha blackburn, who is challenging for bob corker's seat. c-span.org,pan2, and the free radio app. and more campaign coverage monday as the pennsylvania republicanbates the challenger in hershey, pennsylvania. >> with the control of congress in question, see the competition for yourself on c-span. watch the debates from house and senate races. make c-span your primary source for campaign 2018. 2018. c-span.g up tonight on next is q&a with jeffrey engel

on his book, when the world seemed new. campaign coverage continues atlantic law with the candidates running for texas governor. at 10:00, the oklahoma governor's debate. announcer: this week on q&a, jeffrey engel, director of southern methodist university's center for presidential history will discuss his book, "when the world seemed new: george h. w. bush and the end of the cold war ." brian: jeffrey engel, if you had to describe george herbert walker bush to somebody who had never met him, what would you say? dr. engel: he was a gentleman. a person who came up with traditional american values of being part of the elite.

when we think about the term -- that really describes george bush. and person who was born well off, had the best education, the best training, and spent his entire life trying to work in public service to give more back. youreally was a gentleman do not see much in american politics. brian: where did start? dr. engel: with his mother. a person who constantly told him, your responsibility was to give back. she always stressed that the team was more important than the individual, which was very important. he was into athletics throughout his life. no matter how many times he would say, mom, here is how i did, she would say, but how did team do? i think that imbues a sense of the broader success being more important than the individual. inan: his dad was born columbus ohio. how did he get to the northeast? >> he was from ohio, from a

manufacturing family. he made the switch of the banking. -- into banking. those of george w. bush's parents come from well esteemed lineages. he grew up in the center of new york and connecticut and maine. really in the new york financial -- the central financial institution for american foreign-policy in particular. >> where did he go to school? he went to private school for high school, then went to yale when he came back from con -- uponcollege and graduation, he and his friends rushed to register before they got drafted. despite the fact george w.

bush's parents and even the graduation speaker, not of the -- none other than the secretary of war, close family friend of the bushes, encouraged bush and those like him to go to college, spent a year or two getting more seasoning. the expectation was these type of person would become officers. a good officer has a little more understanding of the world. bush and his comrades had no interest in that. they want to get into a fight before it was over. ironically not realizing how long it would go. brian: how old was he when he enlisted? was 18.l: he here is a good place for his family connections to pay off. having been unable to keep him from enlisting in the navy, his family was able to get him a coveted spot as a naval aviator. he ultimately becomes one of the youngest naval aviators in the

entire pacific theater. we used to say he was the youngest naval aviator until one other gentleman who was younger showed up. now we have to say one of. either way, remarkably young for having that sort of responsibility. he spent several years training and ultimately gets sent off to fly torpedo bombers off an escort carrier. as an officer, take care of the men under his command. it is remarkable at this point, he is only 20 years old. brian: when you interviewed him, did he talk about this? he talked about, as near as i can tell, everything else. he was very forthright. multiple conversations. more interviews that i can or member -- remember. this, weked him about were on a plane together and i thought, this is a perfect moment to ask, he turned to me and handed me a cookie. it was a double stuff oreo and

said, what else you got? the idea being, i am not talking about this with somebody one third my age. this is off-topic. brian: why? dr. engel: it was a searing lifetime event. especially the fact he was shot down in 1944. he and his crew were on a bombing mission trying to take out a radio tower they had attacked the day before unsuccessfully. his plane was hit by enemy flak, which was able to hold the bomber aloft and keep it on track for the bombing run. after dropping the bombs, he moved up to see us tried to hold his crew men, time to go, and that he himself jumped out. he parachuted down and realized in the water all alone in the pacific ocean that there were no other parachutes.

he realized he was the only one of his crew that had survived. that thought haunted him to this day. he says there is not a data that goes by he does not think about his crew members under his , and why he was spared and they were not. brian: why didn't they survive? dr. engel: that is one of those things that is impossible to answer with certainty. it is clear from the evidence we have that they were most likely killed by enemy shrapnel as it came in. they were not able to get out. a few years ago, bush had the opportunity to visit the island as part of a making amends to her. he was -- amends tour. he was famous for reconciling with japanese. they spotted a second parachute, which told him one of his crew members survived long enough to get out of the plane. he and his friends really

wondered whether he should have kept the plane aloft longer. should have stayed in the cockpit longer? there is no way to answer these questions. a person who did something sacrificial was left feeling guilty the rest of his life. brian: how was he rescued? dr. engel: in a small raft on the ocean, bobbing up and down, he had taken in seawater, was vomiting. he writes home to his parents he was crying. think about the adrenaline. then he noticed something particularly bad. his raft was beginning to move toward the island. that was really not a good place for an american pilot to go. we subsequently found out that other pilots who have been shot down on that island were not only killed by the japanese, but there was cannibalism that went on as well. bush, not knowing that, but

knowing capture is not a great thing, paddles furiously the other direction and ultimately an american submarine picks him up. he spends the next month underwater with the crew doing submarine missions until he can get back to base. brian: when does he get out of the service? dr. engel: 1945. he had rotated back, had more training, flew 58 combat missions, really deserved time. after he was shot down, he could have taken a break. , no, right back to his unit to keep the fight up. 1945, he had just married barbara bush and news comes out the war is over. the atomic bombing of he regime a rough the war to a quicker and -- of hiroshima brought the war to a quicker and then people were expecting. he was on to the next step, which was he able. .- which was yale

there was five years of students who had not been there. any of them came back with a flurry after world war ii ends. the university had to build huts for them to live in. they were so packed on campus. they give them an accelerated program of study. he was able to graduate in three years. in economics. he was part of the skull and bones society. the most press -- prestigious society. he was there with his wife and ultimately with his small son george. one of my favorite discoveries of the entire book is that barbara bush and george -- both george's -- actually lived in an apartment complex next to the residence for the l president, who came over one day and asked

her to stop putting out the whenry of george's diapers he was having parties. it gives you a sense of how someone could go in six months from the terror of world war ii into the life of new haven in the 40's. brian: his father served in united states senate. what impact did that have on his life? dr. engel: it really demonstrated an example, if you will, of the kind of service his mother had been describing her entire life, but also the kind of service his father exemplified, which was a service of compromise. service of negotiation. george prescott bush was no firebrand. he was what we would call a classic eisenhower republican. he was one of dwight eisenhower's favorite golfing buddies. eisenhower said, i like to wish -- to play with bush as he is

one of the people who will not let me when. when you are president, you get a few mulligans. he was the kind of person who was willing to reach across the aisle. we have little legislation that was offered by prescott bush. but an extraordinary wealth of tales of him going behind the scenes getting the sides to come together in a way that is difficult to conceive of today. brian: why did george herbert walker bush moved texas? -- moved to texas? dr. engel: texas was part of the adventure. at the end of 1940 eight, having just graduated from yale, he has the opportunity to go to new york, to work in his father's investment house. he instead decided, i need to go and make my life on my own. make my own way. he drives across country and winds up in texas. he had a friend of the family who had an oil company there.

he begins work as a salesman for the oil company. barbara and literal -- and little george come after. this is a great moment for trying to understand who george bush is. on the one hand he is a person who is able to take the leap of faith and say i'm going to try something new and not rest on the laurels of my family to succeed. on the other hand he goes to texas with a large check from some investors back home. he is working for a family friend. and he knows if texas does not work out, there is always a job in new york for him. it is an adventure, but there is a large net. brian: when did you start this book? 2006.gel: around really by accident. i was teaching at texas a&m at the bush school of government, teaching international relations and security studies. i had just finished my first

book, a study of british and american aviation, export controls. my department chair came and said, what is your next book going to be? he said before you get into it, why didn't you go over to the library? there is a diary you might find interesting. it turned out to have been bush's diary from the time he was de facto ambassador to china. it was gripping. it was fascinating to see a policymaker thinking through the issues of the day and how international relations worked and how diplomacy worked 20 years before he put it into practice. i was drawn into this period, period cerise and as a historian i never thought i would find myself working on, because it wound up being more interesting, not only bush's sense of diplomacy, which was masterful, but also i was drawn to the end of the cold war.

i was struck by the fact that you and i should not be here in a real sense. the cold war and its and can best be understood as the collapse of a great power. when great powers collapse, typically almost invariably throughout history, great power wars ensue. you were waiting bets about how the cold war would end in 1989, you would get good odds on chaotically and violently. the fact it did not, the happenstance, the circumstance, and the masterful diplomacy to keep it from that, drew me to no end. brian: he has not been president for 26 years. how old were you in 1992? >> i graduated from high school in 1991.

i remember the gulf war very clearly. about the asked berlin wall and i have to concede it was football season and there were cheerleaders and i do not recall. brian: where did you grow up? dr. engel: omaha, westside. brian: where did you go to college dr. engel:? cornell. i knew i wanted to be a historian from the time i was four or five. brian: where did you get your phd? dr. engel: university of wisconsin. brian: where was your first job? dr. engel: yale. only one house down from where george bush had been when he was a student in the 1940's. brian: how long were you at texas a&m? dr. engel: eight years. after i left yale i went to the university of pennsylvania. historian, she a does colonial american history and religious history and she

was teaching at rutgers. texas a&m called and said, if you would like to live in the same town, we have two jobs for you. off to college station we went. the first time we went there, i knew were texas was, obviously. but i did pull out the map to find where college station was. brian: why did you move to smu? dr. engel: that was difficult. smu at that point was preparing to open up the george w. bush library and the george w. bush institute. they had decided to create a brand-new institution to study the presidency, especially as an academic counterweight to the political think tank on campus. i do not mean to suggest these are equal in weight, but they wanted something purely scholarly. when the opportunity arose to create a new center from scratch , that was something i had to jump on. brian: president bush was here

in 1998 when he had his book about foreign policy. about to run some video george bush talking about the power of the oval office. i know we are jumping way ahead. but when we hear him talk about this i want your reaction. >> every president would confirm that experience. i'm going to tell this guy off, i will get him, then they go in and there is something about the office itself and the respect all americans have for that office where you do not feel like calling out the president or taking him on the way you told your colleagues you were going to. brian: what do you see their? china,el: when he was in he was eventually called back to run the cia. something he did not want to do. he thought running the cia was a political career killer. he still had aspirations for higher office. then he says he remembered his

father saying, if the president of the united states asked you to do some for your country, the answer is yes. that sentiment really embodies his entire sense of obligation, not to necessarily be a president in his own right, but to hold the presidency up as a charge to hands off to the next person. he handed it off sooner than he would have liked, but he understood the president embodies american honor and american power and embodies american insistence he in many ways. you first meet him? how often did you interview him? dr. engel: i first met him my first year in college station. once i got to know him better, he used to come to our classes at the bush school quite frequently. i have a very funny story about that. i used to bring him into my foreign policy class when the

students had to do a simulation where they had to present to the president some policy issue. we never told the students they were showing up, so it was wonderful to see the look on their faces. we had him play the role of president. i one point during the break said, mr. president, i have to tell you, you are really not getting it. you are not asking hard questions. we need you to drill them like you drilled generals or senators or anyone else who came into the office. he looked at me and said, can you imagine what would happen if one of these students call their mother and said, the president came to class and said my idea was stupid? he was such a gentle, considerate man at his core he was marvelous to work with. by the time i had left the bush school, i had been interviewing him for five years. sometimes, many times a month. brian: do you have records of

every interview? dr. engel: i do have records. i am not sure i have a computer capable of playing my records, but i am sure we could find a way to do it, it is such an old program. i audiotaped everything. we would usually have a morning session. i would drive down to houston, we would sit in his office, talk about the cold war, talk about his life, and go to lunch. it was a really heavy experience to go with the secret service to lunch with the president. people do not really stand and applaud when i walk in a room. brian: we can do this quickly because there is so much to talk about. i want to go through his life and the years and have you say something about that period. 67 to 71. he was the u.s. representative in the house of representatives. dr. engel: the most important thing about that moment is the time he stuck to his constituents. he voted for the fair housing act, something remarkably

unpopular in his district in texas. even though he expected this would ruin his political career. he went back to his district and explained his boat and explained that he had just come back from visiting american troops in vietnam and could not stomach the idea that an african-american or hispanic american or any other kind of american who put their lives on the line in combat could not come home and buy a house.. he voted for that out of conscience and demonstrated that he did see a higher purpose to service. brian: in 1971, he was a u.n. ambassador. how did that happen? dr. engel: if you look back, perhaps his happiest years of his life, i would argue. he found he really loves diplomacy. he had run for senate from texas. he had given up his house seat to do so. he was expecting to run against against a relatively

liberal candidate, instead found himself running against -- oh my goodness. think we can safely say is more conservative than george w. bush. he lost that election. he had in the back of his pocket, the promise from president nixon that if he did this, run for senate, and it did not work out, the nixon administration would take care of him. george bush went to richard nixon and said, i think i would like to be treasury secretary. to which nixon replied, you are not qualified. nixon actually says something worse about him to one of his aides. he said the treasury secretary has to be president. a funny statement now. they found a different position, which was to be at the united nations, at which point it was pointed out that george w. bush had zero diplomatic experience.

bush very wisely turned that into a virtue. he explained to the staff under nixon knowsince he did not anything, he would do exactly what henry kissinger said. that is exactly what henry kissinger want to hear. then: 1973, he began as chair of the republican national committee. there for 21 months. why? dr. engel: because the president asked. and if the u.n. experience was his happiest time of life where he discovered something that enthralled him, the time of the rnc was the worst time politically and his life. he did it because president and decided to shake up his cabinet after winning reelection in 1972. move people around for the second term. he decided bush would be the kind of person he wanted at the rnc because he would be a loyal follower of the president's ideas. it became difficult because of

watergate. job ofd the unenviable being forced to go out on the stump everyday and defend the president, a president who he increasingly came to believe and then know have been lying to him. like other republicans at that time, the moment they realized they had been made to lie for nixon, that was a moment he and others encouraged his resignation. 1974, he went to china as the u.s. liaison for only 14 months. who sent him and why did he take that job? dr. engel: gerald ford sent him. fortis sent him essentially as a reward for the service he had done for the republican party. bush had been talked about as being ford's vice president. that did not happen, but they wanted to give him a nice landing place.

to be honest, ford wanted as many people involved in watergate and bush was the public face of watergate, though never involved. it is an amazing story how they got to china. everyone knew at this point he had diplomacy -- the diplomacy bug. president ford offered him the chance to become a u.s. ambassador to france or to great britain. the two greatest plums a president can offer for an ambassador. bush turned those down and said, i have got to go to china. i think he did that for two reasons. the ambassador to france and the ambassador to london are typically supposed to enhance the embassy social budget from their own bank account. bush still had three kids to put through college. he also thought going to china would be an adventure, like going to texas. it would be something completely new, completely foreign, and

something completely exotic and exciting. if there is one conversation i wish i had been a fly on the wall for, it is when he came back and informed barbara they were going to china, something she had no idea he was thinking of. brian: for 357 days he became the director of the central intelligence agency. how did that come about? dr. engel: the difficulties of watergate and vietnam. the cia was under pressure from congressional investigations. gerald ford decided to shake things up. he called bush home in order to be cia director. this is something bush thought was going to kill his political career. i believe the theory that donald rumsfeld, who was chief of staff to gerald ford, at least one of the reasons he thought it was good for bush to take this job is because bush was going to be

one of rumsfeld's competitors should he want to run for the white house. having bush be a spy was an added bonus for rumsfeld. brian: i'm old enough to remember back in the late 60's, called then item washington wire in the wall street journal that predicted that george bush and donald rumsfeld would be running for president. when did he first started thinking about being president? bush was suchrge a popular and charismatic person's entire life. -- his entire life. people would often say, you should run for president. i think he began to consider in , the first documented case of him explaining to people he wanted to run for president was when he was in china. some think he was going to come

back into in 1976 or 1980. clearly he was a person who always thought he should be in charge. he was not an alpha male, but he also thought it was a realistic proposition that he would never be the inside candidate, but he would be able to come in from the outside. brian: when did he first run? dr. engel: in 1980. , whenback to his cia days president carter wins in 1976, bush asked if he could stay on. carter wanted his own director, so bush spent the next three years prepping for his run in 1980. he goes back to houston but spends most of his time on the road, meeting people in different states. 1980's when he ran against ronald reagan. it was ultimately the best first challenge against reagan in the sense that bush managed to win the iowa caucuses.

ronald reagan had assumed he was to theo steal -- convention, that was conventional wisdom, and he did not put much time in. bush wins the iowa caucus and frankly it is downhill from there. once reagan gets his full attention in the campaign. bush wound up being the last man standing against ronald reagan. he gives us some of our most important historical phrases and criticisms about ronald reagan. bush is the one who comes up with the term voodoo economics to describe trickle-down economics or supply side as reagan would have preferred. we still use the term voodoo economics and we forget it ultimately was reagan's vice president to use that as a criticism against him when they were both going for the top job. brian: what was their personal relationship before he was picked to be the vice

presidential candidate? dr. engel: i would argue they had no relationship except for a somewhat antagonistic one. they were not close. i'm not sure how often they had been together except on the campaign trail. something that does not breed camaraderie when your competitors. in the 1980 convention, it was a weird one historically. there began to be talk that perhaps ronald reagan would choose gerald ford to come back and be his vice president. they would essentially be copresidents. these negotiations got close before both sides realized it would never work. reagan had to turn and find someone to be vice president. the logical choice was the next man up. the one who had been last man standing in the campaign. it is a testament to both men, their sense of opportunism and their basic character, that they were willing to work past the

criticisms of the primary campaign to work together over the next eight years. brian: what was your reaction when you saw a roger ailes became a close confidant and advisor to george h w bush? dr. engel: bush had a remarkable ability throughout his career, especially when he got into national level politics, of being able to surround himself with people who would do the dirty work that needs to get done for an election as he saw it. lee atwater, roger ailes, people who would play politics -- dirty may not be the right word, but as tough as possible. ok, i use the word dirty. bush would have a sense of remove, he could say, i did not know about that plan, i did not know about willie horton, despite the fact that his campaign clearly knew the willie , aton ad was going to run

racially charged advertisement the bush campaign ran in 1988. there was always someone around who could be the hitman. people like roger ailes and lee atwater played that role. brian: why did you believe george bush when he said he did not know about the ad? >> i have seen no documentation that he did and i have seen documentation from people like atwater is that we made a point of not discussing such things. this is not to alleviate bush of any complicity or guilt. .e was in charge he is responsible for what happens with his campaign. but it does give a sense of the tone he wants to set. he told his people, we're going to go for the win, we're going to do whatever it takes, we're going to play dirty, play the race card and emasculate michael dukakis. he wanted those things done, but he wanted somebody else to do it. brian: many stories have been

written over the years that when ronald reagan was president, george bush, his vice president, was not invited to the private quarters. the have no time together except their lunches. is that a true story? did u.s. the president? -- did you ask the president? dr. engel: i did not ask because the more interesting question would have been asking ronald reagan. george bush was not the only person who did not make it into the residence. essentially no one made it into the residence when reagan was president. ronald reagan was perhaps the greatest personal enigma of our presidents. he was gregarious but likes to spend time by himself or with nancy. their typical evening was to eat tv dinners and watch old movies together just the two of them. close to never get too ronald reagan.

believe me, george and barbara bush tried. he thought, if we could make the reagan's our friends, that would help us professionally and politically. ronald reagan did not have friends in that way. he had many close acquaintances. nobody besides nancy we could call a true friend. brian: what are the chances george herbert walker bush what has been elected president if he had not been selected by reagan as vice president? dr. engel: i have never considered that question. i think he would have entered -- and let's presume reagan wins -- he would have entered the 88 election as one of a pack of people who would be running for president. at that point as i think about it more, he would have been in good stead. one of the remarkable things about the republican primary is just how far most of the candidates on the field are trying to run away from the

legacy of reagan. we think of reagan through the lens of history, someone who was mark avoid popular at the end. he was personally popular, that his policies were not. he still had the taint of iran-contra. most of the candidates were trying to criticize reagan's legacy. in 1980,is experience had bush not been a member of the administration, he would have been first in line to criticize reagan in 1988. brian: you start your book by telling a story about george w. bush and a man named gorbachev. here is some video. >> when was the first time you met? >> when i was vice president. the day he assumed office, i was the guy that went to a lot of funerals over there. i cabled back to ronald reagan, this man is different. much more open.

inclined to turn to his aides to tell him what to say. much less programmed. brian: why did you start your book with a gorbachev story? dr. engel: the book is fundamentally about the end of the cold war. if you had to choose somebody who was more responsible for ending the cold war and anybody else, it would be mikael gorbachev. he is the catalyst to get the entire explosion started. the democratic explosion. his desire to reform the soviet union. he was a true soviet believer, but to revitalize it. democratic revolutions brought down his country's empire. bush's interaction with him was critical. ,t was fascinating that bush when i described their first limousine ride, together in washington, d.c., gorbachev was arguably the most famous man in

the world. bush was trying to become the most powerful man in the world. but the odds were -- not so much stacked against him, but he was uncertain he was going to be able to get the nomination. the idea you have this incredibly popular rock star of a foreign leader more embraced by the american people than their own vice president was a dramatic moment for me. diary.the how much did you read? dr. engel: the entire terry before his presidency. i have not read all the excerpts during his presidency. the diary from his time in china is actually fascinating. hegives an insight into how liked to do the diary. he would dictate it. oftentimes at the end of the day . to be honest, he would dictate it oftentimes after having a few drinks. we got some frank discussions

from the president talking to himself, but that really talking. the diary reads like you are listening to him because it is his own words. brian: here he is talking about his diary. >> how did you do your diary? >> first they did not do it very well. it was sporadic. i dictate into it. not that i thought it would never be transcribed verbatim. but just that i would use it as a personal reference. unfortunately some of these things make me sound like dana carving -- carvey. i tried to do it religiously. the would be a gap. i would do it by dictating and subsequently it was transcribed quite a bit later. brian: when you read it, was it on microfilm or was it the actual diary itself? dr. engel: at that point the audiotapes have been lost from the 1970's. 1970's wererom the

transcripts that had been done. the system is really important. transcripts were done of audiotapes by people back in houston in his office, sometimes a year or two after bush had recorded them in china. remember, bush does not speak chinese and he had had a few drinks. he is trying to describe chinese people he met and have it be transcribed by people who did not speak chinese, trying to imagine what he might have been trying to say. the most fascinating and difficult part of the diary was trying to figure out, who was bush talking about? i think we got most of it. i will tell you a really interesting and important story. as the book was going to press, we got a call from president bush's office. princeton university publish this book. we got a call from the president's office saying the chinese have gone to visit

president bush because they have concerns about what i say in the book. used.es was the word they we have to ask how they got a copy. the second question -- brian: i what point in the process is this? dr. engel: we were -- brian: before the book was published? dr. engel: yes. brian: and they had a copy? do you have any ideas how they got a copy? dr. engel: there were copies that had been circulating. but president bush did not have a copy because one of the rules we set out from our arrangement was that he would never see the book until it was published because he could not have any influence. he agreed to that in a heartbeat. what was fascinating to me was the chinese complaint about the mistakes in the diary, and my first reaction as a researcher was to say, great, i must have misidentified people. they are going to help me get it

right. what they were upset about is the fact i referred to tiananmen square as a crackdown or a massacre or a bloody event. they wanted me to change that language. i suggested, would you prefer brouhaha? or is no way we were going to change the language. that is why to this day there is no official chinese edition of the book because the chinese government would not allow it to be published in china with those , as they put it, mistakes involved. you can still buy bootleg copies, but not an official one. brian: how many people did the chinese government filtering tiananmen square? dr. engel: best estimates, about 2000 to 3000. there is no way of getting a great answer. brian: why did they think you would change the language? honestly, i think they felt we would sellout. at that time we were negotiating , we had not gotten to a stage of sending a copy, but we were

planning to negotiate to sell the rights around the world for this book. china was going to be a big market we thought. there was a lot of money at stake. they thought if they got us to change the words that we would go ahead with publication in china, not realizing that my integrity and princeton university press' integrity was worth than any money we could make an -- oran: did they come to you go to princeton? what kind of people came to you from china? dr. engel: nobody came to me. they came to bush's national security adviser and had communication with president bush's office. the information was transmitted to me from president bush's office. to their credit, they wanted me to know what the chinese were asking because ultimately it was my decision as the editor.

president bush did not have the authority to change words in my book. we expect you will do what you think is right. brian: did he have clients that were chinese at the time? dr. engel: i would not be able to say. i can presume. brian: there is so much to ask you about and i have so little time. i'm going to go to another event. follow the wall. -- the fall of the wall. how much responsibility to george bush have? dr. engel: zero in the immediate sense. bush had a responsibility for making sure gorbachev's reforms continue to go peacefully. throughout tightrope the entire first years of his administration knowing if he pushed too hard on the soviets, that could cause a counterrevolution against gorbachev and the other democratic revolutions of eastern europe. if you was to be his young

gorbachev, that could cause a counterrevolution. gorbachev's opponents might say, you are clearly too close to the americans. that is the big macro influence bush had on the immediate evening of the fall of the wall. it was a surprise. it was actually a mistake. used german spokesman read the wrong memo on television, giving people the impression they had the right to cross the border and ultimately when tens of thousands of people saw that on tv and rushed to the gates, the guards made the wise choice that they should open up rather than mow the crowd down. cia not have any information that this kind of things going to happen? dr. engel: nobody had any idea. it was not supposed to happen. i have a wonderful memo from two days before the wall fell. from bush's national security council.

it essentially says, i am paraphrasing, we should think about the fact there might be a andge in the border status we should start planning how we might want to put together a committee to start thinking about how we should react. that is typical bureaucratic start to something you expect is not going to happen for six months or a year or maybe never. most of the folks who saw the berlin wall fall had the same reaction, which was, this was something we never thought we would see in our lifetime. most politicians, especially german ones, who would talk about a unified germany would talk about tearing down the division between east and west -- they could talk about that in the same way they could say we are going to jupiter. no one thought it would happen. brian: did you hear anything from the president about mr. gorbachev that surprised you? one thing that was

really quite interesting to me was more about bush and the idea of doing interviews, which i, as a historian, find wonderful and frustrating. all people have a marvelous ability to forget the details endocrinology and remember the end result -- the details and the chronology and her member the end result. -- and remember the end result. the first time i started talking to president bush about his concerns and gorbachev, and i had boxes of memos from his administration on it saying we do not know if we can trust this guy, president bush said to me, i always trusted gorbachev. he seemed trustworthy. the reason was he had come to consider by that .20 years later gorbachev is not only trustworthy, but a personal friend.

that is a category must have always been in. brian: here he is talking about his closeness to mikael gorbachev. >> how close did you get to him? >> pretty close. emotionally close. i remember when my last talk with him while he was in office, it was christmas, maybe christmas eve. it was very emotional as he said goodbye. i am close to gorbachev. brian: how much have they talked since then? dr. engel: i cannot answer for the last couple years. i know they were still communicating into the early 2000's. remained ans unpopular figure in russia and has in some ways become more nationalistic than he used to

be. president bush has moved on with his retirement. iraq. we could talk about that a couple of hours. but what did you learn from president bush about his decision to go in a rock? -- iraq? dr. engel: the most important thing is threefold. the first thing is how much iraq was for him and those around him not about the middle east, but the end of the cold war. they understood the berlin wall -- the sovietssia union seemed to be transforming rapidly. they understood the world had changed and however the international community chose to meet the threat of violence the first time after that change would set the pattern for decades to come. iraq mattered, but ultimately what mattered was the post-cold war sentiment they were trying to create.

the second thing that was really fascinating about the gulf war was that bush was fully prepared in january of 1991 to go to war with american troops in the region even if congress on the eve of that had voted against giving him authorization. it was a remarkably close vote. ultimately bush wrote in his diary, and i had this confirmed by people in his administration, even if he lost the vote, he was going to use his authority to send american troops into combat. which he recognized would be a clearly impeachable offense. he actually had an interesting rationale. he thought it was the right thing to do, he thought saddam hussein had to be taken out. secondly, he thought we are going to win this work quickly. presidents who win wars quickly

are popular. i would like to see congress impeach me when i have a 90% approval rating. he thought the war would have been over by several weeks. brian: what did he say to you when you asked him why he did not go and take saddam hussein out in 1991 and his son ends up having to do it years later? every member of the bush administration will give you the same answer, which is borne out by the documentary evidence as well. no one in 1991 in the bush administration including dick cheney thought it was a good idea to go on to baghdad. the reasons they gave are hunting for us today. they suggested the iraqis would treat us like a foreign occupying force. they suggested it would create ethnic and religious tensions that could lead to civil war. they thought it would put tremendous strain on the israeli-palestinian issue, the

center of so much middle east politics. frankly, bush recognized if you owned iraq metaphorically speaking, you were responsible for it. that was a responsibility the united states either should not take or perhaps would not be able to be successful at. we do not need to. our expectation is that the ,hreat is going to be removed saddam hussein is most likely going to die from a coup from his own officers. that was the most likely that. -- bet. brian: when was the last time you talk to him? dr. engel: a few weeks ago. brian: what was his reaction to your book? dr. engel: i think he enjoyed. i had the privilege of going a couple of times and reading the book, reading chapters of the book to him and mrs. bush before she passed. -- a differentt time to president bush himself. it is a remarkable opportunity that few historians ever get, to

read their book to their subject. brian: why did you do that? why did he listen? dr. engel: first of all, i thought it would be really cool. but secondly because president bush asked. or his staff asked. withs having difficulty his eyes and could not read as much as he liked to. people were reading to him daily. they thought this would be a bookie would want to hear and ,hat would be a good experience and that it would be a chance to catch up. i do remember saying, most people have audiotapes. it was explained to me when you are the former president, people read to you.. brian: you are critical of him in the book. dr. engel: yes, frequently. brian: did he blanch when he heard that? dr. engel: i did inadvertently read apart i was not intending

to, which was the difficulty he had over his budget deal. his no new taxes pledge. i had forgotten that was part of my telling of the gulf war story. only because it is not a moment which historians think was a bright shining moment for bush. he has been remarkably supportive in a way that i think should be an example to other people who formerly held power in that he always did it and understood that the job of people who make history and the job of people who write history are different and have to be separate. and that his job was to answer every question as truthfully as he could and my job was to assess things as truthfully as i could. i found many things where i think he was misinformed, i think he was mistaken, i think he had mistakes in judgment. overwhelmingly a come away impressed by the job he did, especially as a double.

but even an all-star hitter strikes out. brian: a short clip of him talking about personal diplomacy. , and i tried to practice this when i was vice president, that you are better -- you have a better chance of succeeding if you know a person, no his heartbeat, know about the family, and are interested. brian: were you able to quantify the number of handwritten notes or typed -- he typed on little cards. did you get a statistic? dr. engel: i do not know people can count that high. had anybody ever been as prolific as he was? dr. engel: certainly no president has been as prolific as a letter writer, as a person who maintained personal contacts. i understood that at its height,

the bush christmas card list was over 25,000 people. once you became a friend of george bush's, you remained that way. he believed the personal touch was built over time. one of the most amazing things we were able to get declassified and pull out of the library to write this new history where all of the phone calls, transcripts of the phone calls president bush had with foreign leaders. every time he picked up the phone to talk to a foreign leader, we had that. what was amazing is how little talking he did. he oftentimes would call people up, the president of australia, of zimbabwe, and say, what is going on with your world? and just listen. what that was useful for with gathering information, but subsequently, when you then call someone to ask for a favor, they know it is not the first time you are calling. and they are interested in you as well.

brian: what impact did parkinson's have on him? dr. engel: i don't look comfortable describing his medical conditions. he is aging and it's difficult for anyone to go through that. he has difficulty walking, difficulty doing a lot of things he used to love. brian: did he talk about that at all? dr. engel: not with me. brian: is there anything more you want to do about the story of george herbert walker bush? dr. engel: i think the story of a comparison between the bush invasions of 1991 and 2003 news to be done -- needs to be done. but i want to go back to something else as a matter of professional ethics. i did have a personal relationship with president bush. president bush treated me well and it was a highlight of my career unexpected late -- unexpectedly to work with him.

i always maintained a professional distance. one way i tried to maintain that was whenever i was writing and i found myself saying, i wonder how the president is going to andt to that, i would stop push myself away from the desk and walk around and say, you cannot think about him while you are writing this. you have to be thinking about what you think about him. brian: when does the paperback come out? dr. engel: november 17, 2018. brian: let's look at the cover again. it is "when the world seemed new: george h.w. bush and the end of the cold war," and are guest, thank you for joining us. ♪

announcer: for free transcripts or to give us your comments about this program, visit us about -- at q&a.org. >> next week on q&a, i yell university historian on her book , "the field of blood." q&a next sunday at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. >> more campaign 2018 coverage monday. pennsylvania gov. tom wolf will be debating his republican challenger in hershey. live coverage starts at it: 15 p.m. eastern. -- at 8:15 p.m. eastern.

,> c-span's washington journal live every day with news and policy issues that impact you. monday morning, a supreme court reporter talks about the start of the new supreme court term. and a fox news political analyst hells new book, "what the do you have to lose." be sure to watch c-span's washington journal, monday morning. join the discussion. sourcean is your primary for campaign 2018. next, the debate in the texas governor's race. after that, the candidates running for oklahoma governor take part in a debate. at 11:00 p.m., another chance to see q&a with jeffrey engel

talking about his book on president george w. bush and the end of the cold war, when the world seemed announcer: now, republican governor greg abbott debates democratic challenger lupe valdez at the lyndon b. johnson presidential library in austin, texas. this is about an hour. >> in the texas constitution, it says texas is a free and independent state. the governor holds's the state highest office. >> all political power is inherent in the people. >> and it is up to the texans, from the rio grande to the red river, the panhandle to the gulf -- >> when you can't find a way, you go out and make a way, make it happen. >> they will decide in november who leads the lone star state over the next four years. >>