i think it's andrew johnson like president, somebody who has impeachment swirling around them and somebody who is not able to heal a racial divide in the country. >> there is a real animosity between the purpose and president as early as john adams because he is the person who is pushing for the sedition act of 1798 and what that does is it actually tried to prevent criticism of the government and a president. 's the weekly on the free c-span radio app under the podcast have or wherever you go for podcasts. >> coming up in about an hour, mark holden discusses bipartisan criminal justice reform legislation recently endorsed by president trump. whipple on whether

president trump will shake up his campaign -- cabinet in the aftermath of the midterm elections. strengthare our possible lisa davis discusses the no kid hungry campaign. [video clip] >> and i am not going to destroy the economy for our country by being full is with saudi arabia. was pretty statement obvious what i said about america first. ♪ president trump yesterday defending an earlier statement on saudi arabia and the crown role in the killing of jamal khashoggi. republicans and democrats on capitol hill criticized the president and said lawmakers should act to punish the country over the murder. the president said disrupting our ties would be foolish and hurt our economy.

do you think the u.s. should cut ties with saudi arabia? if you say yes, 202-748-8000. if you say no, 202-748-8001. you can also join us on twitter@ four go to -- on twitter @cspanwj or go to facebook.com/cspan. start dialing in now, we want to know if you think as the president does that we should not cut ties with saudi arabia or if we should. the president sent out a statement earlier in the day dictated by him about the intelligence community's assessment the crown prince was involved with the murder of jamal khashoggi. the statement includes this paragraph. saudi arabiaes of say jamal khashoggi was an enemy of the state and a month -- a member of the muslim brotherhood. this is an unacceptable and horrible crime.

our intelligence agencies continue to assess all information, but it could very well be the crown prince acknowledge this event. maybe he did and maybe didn't parried the washington post, the ceo and publisher fred ryan who jamal khashoggi worked for put out this statement pray to president trump is a dangerous place. he surrendered to the state ordered murder will only make it more. an innocent man brutally slain deserves better as though the cause of truth and justice and human rights and failure of leadership from president trump falls to congress to stand up for america's true values and lasting interest. lindsey graham had this to say yesterday about the president's statement. [video clip] >> i am not talking about ending the relationship. everything he said is true about the strategic nature of the

relationship. saudi arabia needs us more than we need them. it is not too much to ask an ally not to butcher an ally in a consulate. i think he did it and he is crazy about what he has done in the mideast. arms --sh him into the more strategic alliances we ofow him into the arms putin, iran, syria, china. >> there is no way saudi arabia will align with iran, they are mortal enemies. the bottom line here is i care about the strategic relationship. i will support israel. i will not turn my back on this guy. we have a historic opportunity to tell the people in the mideast there is a new sheriff in town. if you travel over us, you will pay a price.

make that you decision, you won't have a hard time with me. if you want to replace him with somebody that is not crazy, that would be a good move read host: other republican senators had this to say on twitter. jeff flake, great allies don't plot of the murder of presidents -- journalists. pretty rand paul, i am sure this statement is saudi arabia first, not america first and i am pretty sure john bolton wrote it. the president indicates saudi arabia is the lesser of two evils so the u.s. will not punish saudi arabia for the killing and dismemberment of a journalist in their consulate. i disagree. this is utterly absurd, irresponsible, and a repugnant statement from the president. no amount of money justifies the the trail of our -- he trail of rayal- justifies the bret

of our principles. we turn to all of you. what do you think? matt in baltimore, maryland, you say no. caller: i say no for two very simple reasons. first, the most important. nothing has been proved. our principles of innocent until worn inuilty have been the last two years. the second thing is the murderer and the murderer's cohorts should be punished, not the country. inre are very many princes saudi arabia. it is very complex. the religion is complex. make the decision and that is the end. host: what about the

intelligence community's assessment the crown prince -- let me read from the washington post and get your reaction. the post reported last week that cia determined it was effectively impossible that such an operation could have been carried out without the approval of the son of king solomon -- salman and the de facto leader. many arrested in connection were members of his -- many said in connection to the crime were members of his royal guard. on sunday, trump said he was awaiting a full briefing. the assessment relied on audio recordings provided by turkey and intercepted phone calls as well as other analysis work. -- trump received intelligence on the matter and gina -- gina haspel showed the president details of the crown prince's

involvement. host: does that change her mind? caller: it does not. that -- there have been circumstantial evidence. if he is guilty after a proper trial, i am with you. the thing is, over the years in the united states, we have seen the absolute abortion of the principal of innocent until proven guilty with so much circumstantial evidence. -- now to be a think should not be changed because we have evidence. host: i will go to wendy in new york. you say yes. caller: yes. good morning. first of all to the prior speaker, if this had been done approval, he would

have been out screaming from the rooftops how they had betrayed him. front,y, on the economic it is our planes the saudi's own and our parts that supply them. they have to deal with us. trump talking about russia and is irrelevant because we have saudi arabia. inare in the superior seat this economic area. trump's problem is he is aligning himself with individuals and not with countries. traditionally, america align themselves with countries. when things like this happen. our relationship with the country doesn't fail because it

is with an individual with the country. we have had some relations with saudi arabia before and we have been able to deal with things like this. connectede crime is mbs, he has gone and uc repr a barrel -- donald trump do it with russia and all the other major autocratic leaders around the world. host: the washington post has this paragraph. trump's clannish management style is also a factor. he has entrusted the relationship to his son-in-law, argued within the administration the crown prince is crucial to assisting white house policy against iran and providing backing for a u.s. sponsored mideast package expected soon. let's go to ruth in rochester,

new york. you say do not cut ties with saudi arabia. why? caller: we have had a relationship with saudi arabia since 1948. there was a pact that if they were attacked by anyone, they did not have an army. all of our presidents. you check history. we were there to protect saudi arabia from invasion by other -- just like iraq was invaded. saddam hussein, we got rid of him. we did not have a relationship with iraq. that crown prince said five times he did not do it. he would not have to lie. you don't call these people liars. he went there to get something to get permission to marry this turkish woman. they could have waited and killed him on the street, had someone attack him, run him over, shoot him, they would not

kill him in the embassy where there is surveillance. they would have made it look like a robbery attempt or something. you cannot call these people liars, they have a religious foundation. it is not fair for us to jeopardize our relationship. we are trying to protect ourselves -- saudi arabia is not trying to build any system to attack us. host: you talk about the history. alan wald is a contributor to -- ellen wald writes a piece about the president's statement yesterday. why trump's stance is actually a slap in the face to the monarchy . she writes this, let's look at what the president said. trump focused on saudi arabia as a partner to the u.s. he said saudi arabia has been a heat ally in our very --

pointed out saudi arabia has agreed to spend -- hundreds of billions of dollars of american goods under contract for saudi arabia including military equipment purchases and the president highlighted saudi arabia has been responsive to my request to keep oil prices at reasonable levels. president trump said some things that probably made leaders nervous. he quoted -- he stated "it could very well be the crown prince had knowledge of the plans to murder khashoggi. he differentiated between that leadership in the country of saudi arabia saying in any case, our relationship is with the kingdom of saudi arabia. in other words, he is happy --ut the things saudi arabia president trump said he is open to considering ideas from congress and how to address the problem and there are many

congressmen and senators vocally opposed to the saudi leadership. she goes on to say the problem for royal leadership is domestically and globally, they were presenting an image that crown prince was vital to the relationship of the united states and trump said that isn't the case. the kingdom cannot afford to react as it did when criticized for germany in 2017 or canada this past summer. saudi arabia halted diplomatic relations and halted decisions -- to show its discontent. saudi arabia needs the u.s. economically and geopolitically to much. if leadership is unhappy about support from president trump, the best option is to raise oil prices at the upcoming opec meeting. saudi arabia wanted to cut production anyway and the recent drop in prices only help saudi arabia with this goal. ld onan follow ellen wa twitter. let's go to ruth in new york.

you say no? let's go to philip in orlando, florida. hi, philip. caller: i want to take a little bit of a different twist at this. the saudi's are threatening to cut their oil supply if we don't play ball with their way of doing business in the world. i kind of look back at 9/11 and the people responsible for that. we are told most of them were saudi's. that kind of raised the hair on my back as far as the relationship goes and nothing ever happening. some of the hijackers they claim. with this situation, where this man was brutally cut up and we are saying it doesn't matter because the saudi's are so

important that you could murder american citizens -- people who are citizens from other people. host: i don't believe he was an american citizen. he was living in the united states. caller: you are right. at the end of the day, he was a part of the united states and he went over there and he was brutally -- not just murdered, but brutally murdered. it tells you the company we are running with. if we areent is trying to look at all the -- lets we are having -- weudi's go run with need to me moving toward the kind of energy sources that are not polluting in the first place. maybe this is a natural bridge for us to not cross with them anymore. chrisin tennessee --host:

in tennessee, you say no. it is your turn. caller: absolutely not. the united states is unique that we have the freedom of the press that we do. if we cut ties with every country that doesn't have freedom of the press, look at china, russia, countries in the middle east and europe. it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. you cannot just use this as an excuse to bash the president. we are rather unique country that we have freedom of the press. host: alan in chicago, you say yes. caller: yes, good morning. thank you for c-span, washington journal, big fan. i would say yes, we do need to at least temper our relationship. people forget 15 of the 19 hijackers were saudi arabia.

they also have been accused of other human rights abuses. i know we cannot act too indignant. part of our foreign policy usually puts business interest ahead of human rights or a country that next also virtues of democracy and freedom and liberty and all of that. harm in many places than we have helped people. you forgot what we did in iraq and how we treat iran. what about the rights of the palestinians? we are supporting oppressive government in israel that is doing great harm to palestinian people. i would like to make a suggestion for a future title. should the united states continue its support of israel? i would like to know what the public thinks. en in east chicago.

-- n caller: my brother was in saudi arabia during the iraq war and he stated they really traded american soldiers very respectful. fight --heir land to -- saudi arabia has been really helpful to us in the past. i think president trump is right in what he is stating. thank you. host: the associated press has this about what the president said on our military and business ties. president trump vastly inflated the planned investment in saudi arabia -- despite conclusion of intelligence officials the de

facto leader ordered the slaying of a journalist. 110 billion arms passes -- passage part of $450 billion in planned saudi investment. actual orders are smaller and neither country announced or substantiated the assertion that saudi's are poised to inject $450 billion into the economy. the economic argument was part of the case for deciding not to punish the crown prince or cut arms sales to saudi arabia for the killing of the washington post columnist. robert in indiana. why do you say yes? i am a am -- caller: disabled veteran and i think president trump is doing a disservice to the citizens of this country because we don't need saudi arabia. the president is more concerned about the so-called 400 some billion dollars he is inflating

that they will sell their arms to russia or china someplace. the president is very uninformed about how this process works. tortured and there is nothing going on in the country the crown prince did not agree that it happened. i have heard about you can't call them liars. you can call them liars because the president is line. it is a disservice to us. host: do you want your members of congress to act? would you like to see them pass legislation? caller: i want them to act immediately. they are supposed to have some sort of moral compass for the rest of the world. we should be truthful and speak out. they should speak out right now. host: lawmakers want to push

back at saudi arabia with or without the president. when it comes to congress, tuesday's afternoon statement from trump might not prove helpful. even some of trump's strongest supporters are insisting the legislative branch will respond to the murder although there is no sign on the legislative agenda. pointing to past criticism of president barack obama's middle east policy and pointing that criticism in trump's direction. many of you might recall senator rand paul forced the floor vote on what was an imprecise proxy for the yemen intervention by saudi arabia by seeking to stop in arms sale to bahrain. the senate adopted a motion to table that measure, effectively killing it 77-21.

a blockade of the weapons transaction with the kingdom might be more realistic to get enough votes to pass the senate if not necessarily with a v eto-proof majority. john in virginia, you say no. caller: i think you guys make it too extreme of a situation. i think they should do something about saudi arabia, but cutting ties is maybe extreme they have to differentiate between some of the leadership which trump hasn't done enough of and they have to really -- it is a shame the journalist is really whole impetus for action against the war in yemen. it is far more -- and far more bigger problem. finally, one other point, this guy was killed allegedly because

he was criticizing the saudi's. it was a relatively mild criticism. i suspect it is because this guy had deep roots in the saudi intelligence and they were scared he might reveal things about 9/11 they did not want revealed. host: why do you think that? what have you read that makes you believe that? caller: his history goes back into saudi intelligence. he was in your normal beat in -- reporter with an opinion. what he said was the leadership -- they might not have liked it, but it wasn't something you kill .omebody over i just think he had too many roots in saudi intelligence and they got scared somebody would get to him and have him say things they did not want to hear about other events and relationships. soundingdsey graham is

like the senator from south carolina that the crown prince should no longer be the de facto leader. saudi's,t is up to the but we don't have to welcome the guy. host: john in virginia. mickey in milwaukee, you say yes. caller: good morning, greta. thank you for taking my call. i don't know if we should completely cut ties, that might be too severe. i think there should be some form of punishment. the lady from new york said there is no evidence, they could have taken him out in the park or robbery, there is evidence, there is a tape. the head of the cia flew to turkey and the president in an interview with chris wallace this past sunday mentioned he knows of the tape and it was horrific and he doesn't want to listen to it. everybody knows what happened and it is hard to believe

mohammad bin salman was unaware of such an activity. two private planes flew to his temple to take care -- istanbul to take care of this job. that whate first time is in the best interest of saudi arabia is also the best interest of saudi arabia. saudi arabia should be given a pass. when bill o'reilly interviewed the president after he took office, he told him putin is a killer and the president said there are a lot of killers. are we innocent? we should air that again. the president obviously doesn't care about these things. host: on those individuals that were in turkey at the time of mr. khashoggi's death, the washington times says the 17 individuals sanctioned by the

u.s. are the 15-man team that carried out the assassination. blamed angovernment arrest of the same people for the killing. human rights groups and lawmakers and both parties of congress have been calling for the administration to reassess the alliance with the kingdom. in theere is this editorial page of the new york times in the washington post. mr. trump stands up for saudi values is the editorial in the new york times and they write this, in the absence of leadership from the president, it falls to congress to protect america's standing in the world and they write, a few hours after the u.s. release the president's statement, lindsey graham issued a rebuke. i feel there will be strong partisan support for sanctions against saudi arabia including members of the royal family.

saudi arabia is a strategic ally, the behavior of the crown prince has shown disrespect for the relationship and made him beyond toxic. the murder of jamal khashoggi and the causes of human rights, justice, and truth demand no one in saudi arabia, specific -- -- cially the crown prince the washington post says mr. trump betrays american values and they say the chairman of the foreign relations committee gave a statement indicating he wanted to "know what more would be done by the administration before congress responded." if mohammad bin salman is said to be held accountable the committee must act. the alternative is a world where dictators know they can murder their critics and suffer no consequences. what do all of you think? should the congress act?

should the ties with saudi arabia be cut? good morning to you, go ahead. caller: good morning. think they would want to say from what i have been watching they need to trust the .resident -- president trump we have got a lot of people's backs. we know what is going on. he is a pretty smart man. he doesn't have the loyalty and face of a lot of people of congress. if they would trust him, you would see a long that a lot of different things being done. we see what is going on out of the mouths of both sides of the party and every time they think that. stupid and it isn't

ourselves.not go when we voted him in, we voted him in -- him,ngress doesn't support -- what is going on in saudi, he knows what is going on. he is just talking the way he talks because he has to deal with a certain amount of stuff going on. if you don't have a person's back -- the man loves america. his family loves america. he has family here. that is about it. host: ok. kenneth in missouri. caller: i am for not cutting ties with saudi arabia because what everybody forgets, khashoggi was tied with the

muslim motherhood. host: his family denies that. caller: i don't -- i read he had ties break his family can deny it, but i have read they are just covering up for him. you have got to dig in to this. host: have you, kenneth? where have you looked? caller: i have looked in the washington times and one of the new york papers. it wasn't the new york times, another paper. i can't remember what it is now and the st. louis post dispatch had an article about it a while ago that he was connected with the muslim brotherhood. host: did that come from the saudi royals? the saudi government? >> the writer did not state where it came from. int: that is kenneth

missouri. the president began his statement by talking about iran. the country of iran is responsible for a bloody proxy war against saudi arabia and yemen trying to disable eyes iraq -- destabilize iraq's attempt at -- likewise, the iranians have killed many of people and innocent people throughout the united states. iran is considered the world's leading sponsor of terror. iran's foreign minister responded mr. trump bizarrely devotes the first paragraph of his shameful statement on shouting atrocities to accuse iran of every sort of malfeasance he can think of. perhaps we are also responsible for the california fires because we did not break -- rake the forest. randy, you say no to cutting ties. go ahead. .aller: a little trepidation

i was looking at our history, ok, lbj, the cia and that little homosexual running the fbi at the time murdered kennedy. then they murdered the next kennedy in 68 -- 1968i think it was or whatever and then you saudi's bush's and the blowing up the world trade center. of that killed 3000 people and then we are murdering all of these babies and they don't even have a chance to see a crematorium like the nazi. where do we stand? here is the pot calling the kettle black. host: in some other news, the new york times front page, trump saw to have photos face charges foesught to have

face charges. the lawyer, donald mcgann rebuffed of the president saying he had no authority to order a prosecution. he said while he could request an investigation, that could prompt accusations of a bruce -- abuse of power. if he asked law-enforcement to investigate his rivals, he could face a range of consequences impeachment.sible the encounter was one of the most blatant examples of how mr. trump views the typically independent justice department as a told to be wielded against his political enemies. it took on additional significance when mr. mcgann hn left the white house. there is a story on the front page about matthew whitaker as well. this is the headline. robert o'hara, sean, erin davis

with a story whitaker had big payday at nonprofit. three years after he arrived at what -- at the white house, he received $1.2 million as the leader of a nonprofit group that reported having no other employees. the foundation for accountability and civic trust described itself as a non-watchdog nonprofit -- watchdog nonprofit exposing unethical -- there is this headline from the new york times. list of pelosi challenges dropped from one to zero. democratic insurgency looking to force nancy pelosi to abandon her bid for speaker and install a fresh crop of leaders suffered a setback when marcia fudge, the sole lawmaker to flirt openly with the challenge dropped the idea and endorsed pelosi. the sudden reversal was a result --a swift and relentless

insisted she will have the support of claim the speaker's gavel. it sent a group of dissidents who released a letter on monday calling for new leadership back to the drawing board to find a democrat willing to challenge policy. changedudge said she her mind after pelosi gave her the opportunity to play a key role in safeguarding voting rights and a short her -- assured her black woman would have a seat at the table. out of mississippi in the runoff for the senate seat, here is the headline in the washington post, firms retract nations after senators remark. onator cindy hyde-smith friday -- earlier she said she would be on the front row of a public hearing and it is those remarks that caused firms to retract donations from her.

she held a debate last night with her challenger and here is what she had to say about those remarks. [video clip] i had anampaign event, opportunity to visit with a supporter who has a big piece of my heart. his mother and dad both died of cancer when he was in high school. to express my deep regard and sincere commitment to this young man, i used to play. i told him i would -- i would not stick my arm in a circle psalm. note -- nor did any of my comments suggest i would employ any type of capital punishment. anyone offended by my comment, i apologize. there was no ill will, no intent whatsoever in my statement. ofnearly 20 years of service

being your state senator, commissioner of agriculture, and u.s. senator, i have worked with all mississippians. it didn't matter there skin color type, age, or income. it has never been any -- not one thing in my background to indicate i had ill will toward anyone. i have never been hurtful to anyone and i always tried to help everyone. i recognize this comment was twisted and turned into a weapon to get to me. a political weapon used for nothing but personal and political gain by my opponent. that is the type of politics mississippians are sick and tired of. twisted your comments because the comments -- came out of your mouth. we all know what came out of was within theit first three minutes around the world.

blackthe state another eye we don't need. it legitimized stereotypes we don't need anymore. your comments did not reflect the values of the company. >> would you like rebuttal? >> i never intended any ill will toward anyone with any of our -- my comments. andomments were taken twisted as a political weapon against me by my opponent and that is wrong. it is unfortunate and that is the type of politics mississippians are tired of. host: that was from the debate between cindy hyde-smith at her challenger, a former u.s. agricultural secretary. if you want to watch more, you can go to our website. the runoff is november 27. next week, coming up. we are talking about the

president's statement on saudi arabia and what he told reporters yesterday. we want to know if you think like the president does that we should not cut ties with saudi arabia or do you disagree? more of your phone calls coming up. the reaction from democrats went like this. is urgentm saying it we get to the bottom of potus' business ties. we asked the trump's to ask quote -- two expose interest. all we heard back was silence. the cochair of the intelligence committee in the senate, the president's failure to hold saudi arabia responsible is one more example of the white house -- from american leadership on issues like human rights and rick -- protecting free press. i am shocked the president said there will be no punishment for mohammed installment for the

killing -- mohammad bin salman for the killing of jamal khashoggi. this is written by the saudi's, word for word it is clear the saudi's own our president and the new house dem majority needs to get to the bottom of this asap. intelligenceis own agencies and undermining american values at home and abroad by giving saudi arabia a pass for the brutal and premeditated murder of a u.s. resident and journalist. the minority leader for the democrats, maybe they did, maybe they didn't? you cannot throw in some exclamation and yell the world is dangerous and call it a press release. that is not how a president response to the murder of a journalist and american resident. the new york times this morning wordshat statement -- 633 punctuated by 8! and written in a politics tile that sounded off-the-cuffcup --

observations. remorselessly transactional, heedless of the facts determined first america's interest and founded on a fear theory of moral equivalence. what do all of you think? john in virginia. good morning to you. caller: i am shocked. i am wondering what is it going to take with this guy? abusehas a bruised -- constitutions. his indiscretions have no limit. you have all these nuts calling in trying to condone what he does. if we allow this to go on, things could get worse. people in government think they can do anything. where is the moral majority? this is crazy. the saudi's never would have done this in any other administration, republican or democrat in the past.

they did it with trump because trump is deep in their pockets. host: he denied that yesterday. liarr: trump is a habitual . every other word out of his mouth is a lie. i don't understand how people can continue to go for this. i don't see how any woman can support him after the tapes and accusations. says noll disagrees, he in stone mountain, georgia. caller: i totally disagree. what would be the repercussions if we cut off the ties with saudi arabia. i don't quite understand the murder.-- murder is something like 137 journalist in mexico have been murdered over the past few years. i don't remember very much about that. if people can shove a hot iron

at the president, they are more than willing to do that. host: you and others might be associated with the -- interested in the associated press story. colleges and universities have received more than 350 million from the government of saudi arabia over 10 years. some of these institutions are reconsidering ties with the government following the killing of the saudi journalist. the death led to international criticism of the oil rich nation . the news agency found at least 354 million from the saudi government or organizations have gone to 37 american schools since 2011. --re is also this piece silicon valley is awash with saudi arabia and money. here is what they are investing in and if you go inside the story, they say they have

invested aliens of dollars over the last five years -- saudi investors have directly participated in investments around $6.2 million. it is not possible to say how much of this money came from saudi's compared to other investors, but saudi's are among the world's biggest tech writers to silicon valley -- check writers to silicon valley. let's go to john in pennsylvania. caller: good morning. asm in the same age group donald trump and unlike donald trump, i served in the united states army. we were told when we served that we were supporting democracies across the world here and since this president has been in, we have been insulting every

democracy there is an supporting the kingdoms and the dictators across this world. when you quote jared kushner, remember who jared kushner is. did notshner's father just spent years in prison for fraud and racketeering, it was witness intimidation and witness intimidation against his own family. i think what was really important was in this last election, you saw a new jersey where kushner and trump operated turned as blue a state as california and hawaii and it is because the people know exactly what went on. reportent new york times quoted donald trump toss father brought three and a half million dollars worth of chips at the

trump casino in atlantic city and at the same time, the casino control commission was saying nobody that had any ties with the casino could have anything to do with that casino. you know all of them jackpots work going off and it was in the papers in atlantic city. those jackpots were eating paid. they are the biggest crime family in america. host: stephen also in pennsylvania, you say no to cutting ties with saudi arabia. i say no because in the past administration, we had people who disregarded u.s. representatives like the massacre of benghazi and i would like to remind people that area of the world is so dangerous and unproductive -- unpredictable that you have to play your cards

right and nobody was held accountable for benghazi and if i would have been your president, they would have been held accountable and investigated and arrested because an ambassador is nothing to play with and when hillary said, what difference does it make, she set the tone for our future in government with middle eastern ties. the muslim brotherhood they supported. here we are today trying to figure out who is right and who is wrong. is making amedia big deal out of it because he was in the press. that man has ties to intelligence that could have turned things upside down across the world and that is a fact. you can look it up and study it. i think people should start doing their homework. want to take a few

minutes to talk about thanksgiving holiday travel and infrastructure needs in this country. joining us on the phone is the senior congressional reporter with transport topics. what are the projections for thanksgiving travel and when does it begin? guest: actually, the travel for the holiday begins today and goes all the way through sunday. we see a to aaa, record number of motorists. 48.5 million drivers. not since 2005 have we seen that influx on the country's roadways and that will cause major delays up to three to four times longer wait times stuck in traffic and the key -- in the key metropolitan areas and those francisco,marily san new york city, boston, atlanta, chicago, and airports are going

to see a lot of delay. you will have nearly 5 million people fly in over the thanksgiving break and taking trains and buses. you will have nearly 2 million people. it will be an extremely busy travel season, putting a lot of capacity the nation's to withstand the demands of travel and our infrastructure host: for those of driving, what kind of condition will they find that the roads are in, bridges's etc.? the drivers will encounter nearly 70,000 bridges that are structurally deficient. society ofo the civil engineers and other groups, those bridges need some minor to major repairs. to be fair, some states have

undergone construction projects to ameliorate those bridges. new jersey among them, delaware for instance. there will be substantial -- they will see a lot of construction on the roadways on bridges. there is a lot of road projects right now especially in the northeast in the midwest as states prepare for the winter season. they are either doing last-minute filling of potholes to make sure there is going to be better road conditions -- they are going to see major roadwork -- work on the roadways and trains are doing updates to rail lines and our airports, you have regional airports nearly a quarter of regional airports upgradejects to facilities.

they will see that as well. how are the roads, bridges, airports funded in this country? guest: the primary source of funding at the federal level is the highway trust fund. this is an account managed by the united states department of transportation backed primarily by revenue from the fuel tax. tax, 24.4e diesel cents per gallon and the gas tax at 18.4 cents per gallon. the revenue from the fuel tax has been insufficient in recent years to sustain the longevity of the highway trust fund. that is something congress will be working on especially when they convene in the next session starting january. host: the cover story for transport topics, transportation leaders to push funding agenda.

the congressman defazio slated to become the chair of the if a structure committee in the house. what does he plan to do to help rebuild and fix infrastructure in this country? guest: the congressman has been the ranking member on the transportation committee for the past four years. he is a person who has been very passionate about infrastructure since he was elected to congress in the mid-80's. he has done a variety of interviews with myself and other reporters and he is proposing a really ambitious agenda for infrastructure. he wants to work with his colleagues on the ways and means committee. they do the tax writing policy so they can come up with a long-term fix for the highway trust fund account. he also wants to advance and infrastructure bill. this would be a long-term bill

that not only will look to repair the roadways, but what we talked about. transit, the airport, etc. the current highway authorization bill expires in 2020. this infrastructure bill will be a must pass piece of legislation as he takes over the committee. another several policy items on the agenda. he has a deadline on automatic brakes for trains, that deadline expires at the end of this year. there are several railroads saying they will not meet that deadline to implement these automatic braking systems. he will put a lot of pressure to the railroads into the next congress. they are called ptc. they will put a lot of emphasis

on infrastructure grants and transit grants. that is something the trump administration has been opting not to fund. he also wants to focus on water policy, improving our waterways and canals and ports and he wants to put an emphasis on trade transportation. transportation, truck traffic is expected to increase 30 years.r the next there will be a lot of additional capacity needs for trucking and the flow of freight and he will look for ways to improve connectivity and maybe have truck only lanes. he has a really full list of agenda. it remains to be seen how much cooperation he gets from his senate counterparts while the house will be controlled by democrats. maintaine will

republican control and not too many of his counterparts see eye to eye on his goal for infrastructure. host: our viewers can follow .our reporting on this we sat down with mr. defazio for our newsmakers interview this past week and he talked about his agenda when he takes over as chair for that committee. you can go to our website and watch it. say no. georgia, you caller: thank you for taking my call. thank you for c-span and washington journal. what i see is an immediate rush to judgment and conviction before even the prosecution. we are supposed to look at things like this. you are innocent until proven

guilty and the absolute opposite is happening. the majority of the media has control of the democratic party -- if there is a tape everybody is horrified to look at, we would be seeing it. you don't automatically cut ties with the country. 17 people have been arrested, let's see this through. if there is -- is a reason to cut ties with saudi arabia, let's do it. good claude in florida, morning to you. caller: good morning. thank you for cnn. -- c-span. we appreciate you guys. i wanted to make clear that isald trump supporting mbs right in line with what donald trump does. if you remember, donald trump

stood beside putin and through the intelligence agency under the bus saying putin's denial was powerful and he believed him. this is par for the course for trump and the trump-that's -- who follow him and support many of the things he has done or said about grabbing women wherever they want -- because he is a celebrity and trying to shame megan ryan for asking a question. so many people -- the veterans not attending the paris meetings, not attending arlington. this is par for the course for donald trump. -- some florida reaction on twitter. victor says lindsey graham supported the iraq war and the war in afghanistan.

the media is just as bad, putting out propaganda to discredit trump and brandon said, did we cut ties with north warbier -- otto cut ties, the arms we are supplying with them are bringing us money, but those weapons are being used to harm the innocent. he is not america first, he is trump first and money first. it wasn't a true diplomatic incident. the united states orders the killing of people from other countries all the time. are we any better? do we let them get away with this? the answer to that is no. of the jobs if we uncapped oil fields instead of buying saudi oil. to can join us if you go @cspanwj.

another story to share from the new york times, democrats plan to investigate a ivanka trump use of her prime it -- private email account. aggressivelymp criticized the use of hillary -- the's email server that and talked about answered questions about it yesterday before he departed to mar-a-lago for the thanksgiving holiday. timothy in princeton, illinois. good morning. share your thoughts with us. caller: thank you for taking my call. i wanted to stay focused on the issue and remind us there is no price on human life. mr. khashoggi will not be coming back and we should investigate this as a crime. mr. trump did not want to hear the audio tape. he feels that is not necessary and i find when we start to say

we would trade security with saudi arabia and they support our education and that, we are e same justifications that they do to sponsor crime and terrorism. to, we knoweed things went bad but there is something we can do not to fix it. we can maybe make punitive measures against saudi arabia this time. not just let the guy off because he is a monarch. even though he may be involved as an accessory to murder. updatesw york times has on a house race that has not been called. the democratic mayor of salt lake county,

according to the associated press, after drawn out weeks of vote counting, mr. mcadams won by 700 votes in the fourth saying thatsee view is unlikely. guest: -- caller: a lot of this begins with where jamal khashoggi was in terms of his alignment against the existing saudi regime. i find it telling that there is a quick list of replacements for the print. it smells like a de facto coup, change the trajectory of leadership in saudi arabia. if you go back to kind of the motivation of why the prince would want to take him out and he was a risk to his leadership dynamic onboard, be good or bad

the cia has a history of trying to drive political outcomes in countries. there is a lot of political pushing on this issue on all fronts. it is interesting how very quickly, there is a list advocated to replace jamal khashoggi. if you go to any other country, the cia has a history of driving what is good for what the cia deems. host: you mean replace the crown prince? caller: correct, i am sorry. that is the jist. you have toeeper, ask yourself what is driving the bus? this doesn't go on death years that jamal khashoggi was a journalist with a hard liberal bias. this problem runs a little deeper. -- deaf ears.

this is framed as a knee-jerk reaction and not digging into what is driving this? what pushes these? it is a horrible loss of life. i would not want to mess with them. host: we will take a break. presidentme back, trump has thrown his support behind a bipartisan senate bill overhauling criminal justice reform. we will dig into that legislation with mark holden, chairman of the group, freedom partners and later, chris whipple, will be here to talk about the president's promised white house shakeup and who may be next on the chopping block. ♪

>> coming up thanksgiving weekend on the c-span networks, on c-span thursday at 8 p.m. eastern, elena kagan followed by john robertson, friday at 8 p.m. eastern, chris christie and others discuss the opioid epidemic. saturday at 8 p.m. eastern, photojournalists talk about their favorites taken on the campaign trail. sunday at 6:30 p.m. eastern, gun laws in self-defense on book tv on c-span2. thursday at 8:30 p.m. eastern, retired general stanley mcchrystal talks about 13 great leaders. friday at 8 p.m. eastern on afterwards, derek hunter. aturday at 8 p.m. eastern, pulitzer prize-winning war photographer talks about photo she has taken in the middle east. sunday at 9 p.m. on afterwards, vargas, on american history

tv on c-span3, thursday at 5:30 p.m. eastern on american artifacts, celebrating the first english thanksgiving at berkeley, virginia near jamestown in 1519. friday at 6:30 p.m. on the presidency, reflections on barbara bush. saturday at 8 p.m. eastern on lectures in history, how the pilgrims became part of america's founding story. sunday at 9 a.m., constitutional scholars philip bobbitt and another talk about how the u.s. constitution defines impeachable addresses and ovens is for the president. -- and offenses for the president. >> washington journal continues. host: mark holden at the table, chair of freedom partners. president last week throwing his support behind prison reform, that is called the first

step act. guest: a lot of great things. first it is important to note, what is in this bill is based on what has worked in the states in the past 10 years. texas, south carolina, georgia have transformed their societies and criminal justice systems through common sense evidence-based practices. that is what this is based on. years,s, in the past 10 eight prisons saved over 4 billion tax -- over $4 billion in taxpayer money and they have a crime rate that is not been this low since the 1960's. that is what we want at the federal level. this is rehabilitation based on evidence-based practices. the idea is that people come out of prison better than they went in. people coming in and out of the federal system every year. returning0,000 people

to society. 95% of criminal justice system at state and federal level, are coming out. it is in our interests they are rehabilitated. they had drug therapy, they are not as traumatized, they get skills, educational courses, vocational training courses. there was a study a few years ago, 2013 by the doj and the rand corporation that showed for every dollar spent on prison education programs, it to phrase four dollars of future cost, and reduces the rate of recidivism by 50%. we want these individuals coming out of is in better so they do not hurt communities or cause us to have more money wasted. that is one part. it is about helping people

improve lives, through reforms. it has cap law enforcement safer, community safer, it has kept communities together and families together. andbout second chances having a redemptive and rehabilitative criminal justice system. not just punitive. host: according to the sentencing project, inmate population in 2016, 1.3 million state prison inmates, 189,000 180,000 heldes and in private run prisons. how will this impact the current population? guest: we would start to scale back. states of in reducing crime rates at the same time. it is the same practice. this program will lead to people not returning to prison, hopefully. what we have seen in addition is smarter sentencing reforms that have been added to the bill by the senate and by president

trump -- he has fully endorsed. these are reforms that have worked in the states. they are important reforms. they're focused on making sentences more proportionate. it will not benefit any violent criminals. it is for low-level offenders, by and large these reforms. more importantly as the president pointed out when he announced support for reforms the senate had added to the first step act, he noted these four sentencing reforms, they were based on the clinton crime bill, which devastated communities, disproportionately devastated african-american communities. trump is trying to undo that. individuals against this bill, tom cotton and others, are trying not to support the president's agenda and they end up supporting what the clinton climbed bill -- clinton crime bill is.

i guess that is something interesting. we should probably call the bill the clinton-cotten crime bill. if you have experience with the criminal justice system, (202)-748-8000. eastern, central part of the country, (202)-748-8001. mountain pacific, (202)-748-800 2. you are senior vice president and general counsel with coke industries. industry. why do they have an opinion about this and have sponsored this legislation? guest: our view is that we are focused on helping people improve their lives. remove barriers to all opportunities to all americans. we want people to have fulfilled

lives and transform themselves. there are internal barriers to keep people from succeeding but there are external barriers and policy issues that keep people from having a real chance at life. the past 30 years, the criminal justice system has been a very to opportunity, particularly for those who have the least resources. you look at our criminal justice system. three different ways. andl, constitutional fiscal. have aerspective, we resource based criminal justice system. if you're wealthy, you will be ok. it is a two-tier pay to play system. everyone else's run over. if you have no resources, it can really do for life and prevent -- from having opportunities it can ruin you for life. we want to keep everyone safer and save money. we are strong believers in fundamental liberty. the bill of rights, the fourth,

fifth, sixth and eighth amendments deal with criminal justice issues. we violate them every day either with bail practices -- based on if someone can pay money, which is inconsistent with the eighth amendment. -- it is a warning. it should not be successful. that hurts the least among us, that anend being kept in prison. they can lose their families or jobs. they try to go back to their job and they lose it because they have a criminal record. the last is the fiscal perspective. doug collins, cosponsor of the house bill that passed with all the freedom caucus voting, he says it is about money and morals. i like to say that but i also like to say reforms began when governors in red states in went inar texas, they

and looked at the mann of money they were spending on incarceration in the criminal justice system. -- the amount of money. they come for the savings but they stay for the salvation. have a second chance and keeping communities safe and families together. host: how much money is the koch brothers putting behind this effort? guest: it is hard to say. we have been working on this for 12 years. we have been working on this bill since 2014. based resources behind it on where we think we can be effective. working at federal level, state level helping with reforms that have happened in michigan, louisiana recently, florida. we also work in communities with groups like stand together, in our seminar network, that tried to find ways to engage communities to help over, all dviled urbanhave bedi

communities in the last 50 years. host: you mentioned tom cotton not in support of this bill. he had a twitter exchange with mike lee of utah. senator mike lee saying "nothing in the first act gives inmates early release. that incentivizes dissipation and recidivism reduction programs. the bureau of prisons retains all authority over who does and does not qualify for early release." tom cotton says "look at the bill. andtes get early release many other sections including retroactive application of fair sentencing act, reduced punishments for trafficking 1b andyl under 84 retroactive expansion of good time served credits. is encouragement delegation."

"it helps them to qualify for prerelease custody." tom cotton "look at text. sheriff's call this dangerous. earned time credits for supervised release." if tom cotton doesn't support this bill, which is supported by major police unions like a fraternal order of police, the largest union for law enforcement in the country, if he is saying he is tougher on crime than the fraternal order of police or donald trump or the international association of chiefs of police, but he is saying is not in the bill. bill,s not support this based on reforms that have worked in many states and that they are using the same types in arkansas, his home state, if he is not supporting that,'s option is to be supporting the clinton crime bill. that is why we need to call it the clinton-cotton crime bill.

we cannot let this happen. this has been going on for generations. these reforms need to be adopted at federal level. federal level needs to scale back systems in a way that is safe and gives people redemptive chances down the road. urged toonnell has advance criminal reform bill. a version passed in the house. guest: we hope so. we met with leader mcconnell this past summer. what he told us his there would be a whip counts and we were likely to get the outcome wanted. he thinks the votes are there. my understanding is that is what will happen after the thanks giving break. count and be a whip there will be support. we have over 2000 faith-based groups on board. a lot of major businesses including koch.

we have others, civil rights 70%ps, this issue falls at to 80% across the political spectrum. people are ready. people have been living with this for the past several years. they know it works. it is time for the federal government to catch up. host: let's hear what viewers have to say. christopher, oklahoma, good morning. caller: good morning. about the eighth amendment. it is supposed to prohibit the federal government from using cruel and unusual punishments. use solitary confinement. it has a stack of evidence against it. how is that legal? guest: good question. the eighth amendment does for bid cruel and unusual

punishment. in some places they have allowed the use of solitary confinement. they have not done it at federal level. they will not outlaw it there are because situations where someone needs to be put in solitary confinement but probably for not so long. i worked in a prison a long time ago. we used solitary confinement for people who were a threat to themselves or to the community within the prison. it was for short periods of time. that is what it should be used who-- to try to keep people are not following the rules and are dangerous away from everybody but not keeping them there for ever. all isolation makes people worse. going back, the first step act has different provisions but most of them are designed to help people improve. if they have trauma, mental health issues -- should,

hopefully they would not be inside a prison -- unfortunately there are thousands -- hopefully they will not be as violent and troubled or put into solitary confinement as much. michael in bloomington, illinois. good morning. caller: good morning. thanks for providing this service. it has been six years ago, i had occasion to be arrested and jailed overnight. for myself, being a middle income white male, being arrested was embarrassing and inconvenient. little more than that. there are a lot of people, minor offenses, they cannot afford bail or afford the fine, it escalates and escalates. i think we need, for people that ie so hot on jailing people,

think you need to approach them there you willing to pay $60,000 per year it costs to keep someone incarcerated? from a moral standpoint, it is horrible. from an economic standpoint, it is idiocy. that is all i have. guest: i agree. we talked about the fiscal perspective. the fiscal perspective is what leads to reforms happening. illinois has done some as well. the whole thing. someent, and social costs, estimate it is over $1 trillion per year that our criminal justice system costs. hard costs, almost $300 million total. incarceration, over $80 million per year, that we spend on incarcerating people, three to four times more than

education. some of the statistics -- you might think we value locking people up more than we value educating them. i do not think that is the case but the numbers do not lie. the reforms we're talking about, they are redemptive, they keep. he safer and make more sense from a physical perspective. the states -- they are safer. about prioritizing skilled and healthy people. good morning. caller: i would like to say, i live in the south and in florida and they released state prisoners on an early basis. the recidivism of crime by these

individuals that were released ill wasthe clinton b hard but it ended the crack cocaine epidemic. and the money on heroin is so big on the streets especially in the south, that these guys are going to get out of jail. they will not be happy with a $10 per hour job. they will go back to doing what they did. this is a dangerous bill. i feel, thet, public in a lot of danger as well as police officers that work in these communities. host: reaction. guest: thank you for your remarks. i respectfully disagree. when we release people who have been incarcerated right into society without any programmatic activity that gives them skills, real skills that they can have an honest living, we do not deal with their trauma or the other issues they have. it is a recipe for disaster. that has what has happened the past 30 years.

i disagree that the clinton crime bill did anything. we do not know of it did because there is no data that shows mandatory minimums or different laws that targeted low-level offenders kept a saver. there is no data whatsoever. -- kept us safer. tried toter the fact say there was a 25% drop, but they cannot show it. the crimeware was dropping when the first mandatory minimums went into effect. when we did the second wave with the clinton crime bill, crime was rising but then it was going down again. it continues to go down while we see more prison populations being much winnowed and people being released. we're reducing incarceration, crime rates, and that keeps people savor. the first step act, people are skilled and ready to be back in

society so they can be productive and be with their families and be a positive force in communities. most of the states that have done reforms have realized that. florida, you are just starting. you have a great crime bill, it will be the data bill for future reforms. they will be able to do an mri of the entire state of florida, about where issues are, what they are and the legislature will get together and come up with reform packages, much like is happening in other states, reducing crime and incorporate -- incarceration rates. if we do not pass the first of act, people will come out of prison, do the same thing and become more dangerous overtime. that is why we need to pass the first step act. host: the naacp legal defense fund president calls it a modest step. "it is imperative that we take seriously the words, true criminal justice reform must

start with policing reforms and changes to law enforcement practices that result in mass incarceration. it must include vale reform and measures that strengthen our public -- bail reform. it must include a return to a smart on crime approach to prosecution by u.s. and district attorneys. we have a great deal of work to do to make our system truly just." guest: this did not happen overnight. we started in the 1970's, tough on crime. we declared war on drugs, inanimate objects. we did not differentiate mental health, public health, substance abuse, people who are poor, made a bad choice, that made economically to get involved in the drug trades. since that time we have walked. we did not differentiate. there are people who are involved in the drug wars and cartels who are dangerous and need to be locked up and for a long time.

there are other people who need to be locked up for a shorter time. we treat everyone the same. that is the problem. it is a one-size-fits-all situation. everyone gets the same thing. when you talk about people coming out of prison, we're focused on that at koch we have been hiring the incarcerated since 1995. if you give them something different, they can succeed. by and large, there are collateral consequences for people who have paid their debt to society and have their sentences done and we do not let them have jobs, housing, education, loans, any access to the american dream. it is not surprising people end up in the system. that is another thing this bill will do and the states have done to make systems better. it is simple. very important. it is a great start. i agree with her. there is a lot more to do. host: second step? guest: bail is different state

to state. we need to follow the eighth amendment. if someone is a threat to public safety, public creates risk for the community, they should not be allowed out without bail. most people are not. do not lock them up because they $100t make cash bail, with that may is low b $1000. it should be based on risk, not resources. these programs need to be fully funded. it is in the bill of rights. we have choice but we do not do that. the power prosecutors need to be looked at. they have respect. ways, society, many prosecutor, the jury, the judge and the executioner, that is not their role. scaring -- scaling that back. sentencing reform is based on what the person did, not just the grid. we high-level offenders,

need to keep them locked up for long sentences. we need to look at sentencing practices to make sure the punishment is fitting the crime. we need prison reforms of people come out better than they went and. in. we need reentry reform. when you pay your debt to society, you should get all your rights back unless there is a public safety reason not to. when you start with the default of no one gets anything, that is a recipe for disaster and more recidivism and more crime. they want to reverse that and welcome people back to society and have them be part of this, like down in florida with the voting rights. we were in favor. host: bill is in erie, pennsylvania. mr. holden, thank you for everything you're doing. this is overdue. we have a criminal justice fromm that is corrupt district attorney to judge.

i have a son, who pled guilty. he was in a horrific accident. his girlfriend was killed in a car accident. he did not have a drivers license. his bail was set at thousand dollars. -- $100,000. he was sentenced, one to 3.5 years. he got out of jail and he could not find a job because of his record. that is just wrong. he had an accident. he did not have a drivers license. that was wrong for him to do. he should have had a drivers license. but what happened was wrong. we need to have reform. i also want to say, i have another son who was accused of a crime. he took a jury trial, it ended up as a bench trial. the judge asked 50 questions of the witnesses, that all

benefited across effusion of him -- the prosecution of him. they came back and said they could not reach decision. they're asking the judge -- what do we do? 20 minutes later they come back with guilty verdict. he asks the jury after the trial heover to stick around while dismisses everyone else. our system is corrupt. they will do whatever they have to do. i have documents that prove that the system is corrupt. i appreciate what you're doing. i really do. i wish you all the luck. it will be tough. our government, judicial committee, these are the people who made these laws. they are the ones who gave judge absolute immunity and district attorneys. all right? we tried to sue them in federal court, we lost because they had absolute immunity and they said

i was acting as my son's attorney, not being license in the state of pennsylvania. no attorney would take the case. they do not want to challenge a district attorney or a judge. host: let's get a response. guest: thanks, bill. i totally understand what you're saying. in any system, corruption, that type of thing. it is a punitive system, is more what i believe. i think -- you made a great point about district attorneys. a lot of people know who the president is, who their governor is, who their senators are, congresspeople, maybe their state representatives. very few people know who their local prosecutor is. that is the individual who can have more impact on your community than anyone else. the past years, places like

philadelphia, chicago, people were running for office who are really wrong on crime but very much open to helping the whole community. performers. -- reformers. people getting ridiculous sentences, when they really don't need them. they need other types of diversion programs. it is important you engage at local level and make sure you are electing the people that you think will be much more just in the way they handle the criminal justice system. one thing about politics. politics is downstream from culture. politicians will follow the leader. they like to get the front of the parade. you have to bring the heat. if you bring the heat, they will see the light. host: texas. caller: i haven't talked in two years.

sergeant was a police for houston. he died in 1977. you can see the flaws. everybody has probably been arrested and it is nothing to be ashamed of. we have a lot of problems with criminal justice. i am in texas. they did a 30 minute program on texas where there is a loophole that parents of any kind of crime, their sons or daughters die in jail, while in jail, they cannot get paperwork. then it is shredded after two years. this is a moral failing. if you want to go back to history and look at ethics, when hoover did all that criminal justice on al capone, we taught them to be criminals. the more we criminalize al qaeda, they spread out. this is what i say. this is a moral failing. ok? this is a moral failing.

it is not black and white. like germany, they even let prisoners walk out. for real. they have no recidivism. the more you treat a man like a dog or a woman like a dog, you're only creating that enemy. they will never -- you know that by now, with trump, let's not turn it to jump, let's quit pointing fingers at each other. this morning you asked the question about saudi arabia. host: we will stick to the topic. guest: i appreciate your marks. -- remarks. texas has done great work. most people want to change the system. with the headska, of corrections, the governor, they are trying to reform. good people in government are trying to change the dynamic.

they are doing the hard work so people like john wetzel in pennsylvania, others in north dakota, michigan, these are corrections leaders who are making sure they are prioritizing safety and coming up with ideas to help people improve their lives, so these individuals come out of prison transformed and can have a chance at a real second chance, some of them never had a first chance. it is tough. they are doing it at state level and they are heroes because they have made the grounds safe for us to do it at federal level. we need these reforms. the vote was big in the house. huge. 360-59. talk about a time when our fractured politics, that vote happened. it will be the same thing at the federal level, if we can get it on the floor before the year ends. we are hopeful we will. leader mcconnell is a man of his work. -- his word.

he thinks the votes are there. that will be the first step for us to reform our federal system as well. we hope it has the same success. we have so many people on board. we're running out of time in the lame-duck. we are. this bill should have happened 40 years ago. representative mark walker made that point on twitter the other night, responding to someone who was attacking the bill, say that families, communities need this. the state seven doing it. lives are at stake. -- the state has been doing it. host: here's what president trump had to say. >> legislation known as the first step, that's what it is, the first cap and it is a big first step. today i am thrilled to announce my support for this bipartisan bill that will make our communities safer and give former inmates a second chance at life after they have served

time. so important. when i announced and when we all announced together this news conference, by some of the toughest, strongest law enforcement people including politicians, by the way, who are so in favor of it, i was surprised by some, like as an example, mike lee. [laughter] and rand paul and others. now it has tremendous support at every level. really great. host: some folks may have recognized you at the back at the white house. what was it like? whether the president tell you when he was not in front of the camera? guest: this is the second time i have been lucky enough to be with the president on these issues. we had a meeting with january for the hospital. -- the house bill. and then meeting the president was asking questions, i was there.

one of our coalition members, they are the best, they started the criminal justice revolution with governor perry back in 2007. she works with jared kushner at the white house on this issue. he has done an amazing job. paula white, faith-based organizations. sean is a georgetown law professor. he has come out of prison, transformed his life. he has his own law practice. it was a diverse group. at one point we were talking issues and someone said -- mr. president, the people who are trying to help, the families we are trying to help, these are the people you ran for. that you campaigned for. the forgotten men and women in our society and that resonated.

what we've seen with president trump is a learning curve, for sure. he commuted alice johnson's life sentence. totally appropriate and just. he did that because he is understanding better what these federal laws are like. there are some people who need to be in prison for life. alice johnson made a mistake. he was offered a three to five-year plea bargain by federal prosecutors. engaging in drug sales. turned it down. go to trial. when she lost, she got life sentence. the president thought that was unfair. she saw this person is a grandmother who made a mistake at a tough time in her life. she is out and she is an amazing person. that has helped the president get more comfortable with these reforms. the president in the meeting last wednesday, you saw him on camera. that was it. he is interested in these issues.

he understands how important it is to keep communities safe and be tough on crimes, but we need to be redemptive. we need to have second chances. he gets that more and more and he is doing an excellent job. host: matt in new hampshire. caller: good morning. i am an inmate, ex inmate, felony record. one of the first things you need to do is we have to have fair sentencing. that is not a question. was in some pretty tough prisons. most of the prisons i was in, were gladiator schools. i chose the easy way out. i spent 3.5 years in solitary confinement. i found it easier to spend my time and read.

that was easier than dealing with population. i was stabbed twice, i was raped, purely brutally beaten by guards and inmates. they are gladiator schools. they do not teach reform. they teach how to be a better criminal. until we accept that prison reform ise so brutal, not going to happen. i made one mistake in my life. i turned my life around. i am considered an honorable citizen. i do many things i get awards for and i am proud. i did it on my own. me,aith, people who love that was a great help. we keep sending kids to gladiator schools. i witnessed an 18-year-old kid in new york, within 30 days he was dead. he was dead because he was afraid to fight and not big enough to fight.

the president rails against ms 13 and the muslim brotherhood, i never knew a thing about the muslim religion until i walked into the prison system. the area nation, never knew about them until i walked into prison -- aryan nation. we need to reform. guest: i am sorry you had to go through everything you went through. i'm glad you are doing better. i agree with you. the first step act will improve prisons, make them more about redemption and rehabilitation and not about warehousing and retribution. there will always be a punitive aspect of prisons. trying to make it so people come out better. we know this is unfair. we know who goes. it is based on resources.

not saying they have committed a crime but if you have resources you can do better in the system. we need to reform our prison systems. this is the first that at federal level. the states are making more progress. there is a lot more to go. we also need to look at communities in general and try to reform them. one of the areas is k-12 education. a couple of frederick douglass quotes. how we try to build these coalitions is the statement he made many years ago "we will unite to anyone to do good, no one to do harm." everyone has played a role in the criminal justice system. everyone needs to play a role in getting into a better place. we owe it to society. it is easier to build strong children than to fix broken adults. that is a lot of what we're doing and criminal justice. people have been traumatized their whole lives.

that is not excusing anything they do, particularly violence, but they have been the victims of violence and trauma. the punishment will not matter. a lot of these people have punished -- have been punished enough. i was in a women's prison in nebraska yesterday. it was all about the stories of redemption. these people have been traumatized their whole lives. working with prison fellowship, this academy, they're trying to overcome what they have done in the past and be better people and come out and be positive members of society and they are working so hard. i see that again and again. butously we cannot do this if we could require an elected official who wants to pass a punitive criminal justice reform to a prison and meet with the people in prison and hear them and see them and hear their stories, i'm confident

most people would be on board with the first step act and other redemptive policies that make community safer and people that are. -- better. host: halle in pennsylvania. caller: i worked with a christian-based organization and a prison for three years. i know that this bill, this prison reform thing is meant to do well. there is so many different aspects. each person is therefore a different reason. big change isn't going to solve all of the prison problems. you have to take them as individuals. did have horrible upbringings. some people found that it was

easier, they made more money are doing illegal activities. some people got sucked into the neighborhood activity, which was crime. there is a lot of different reasons why people and up in jail -- end up in jail. that needs to be taken in consideration. another thing about the children -- that is a good thing to take into consideration because the rate of children going to jail, you can directly corresponds with the parents who goes to jail. host: mark holden. guest: this is the first step act. this is not the intermediate step or the final step. there is so much that needs to happen. so much that needs to be fixed. you have to start somewhere. this is a good start. people call it modest. i say it is major.

we have not had comprehensive federal criminal justice reform legislation in my lifetime. this will be a big first step. these other issues need to be addressed as well. there was a time and money. fixing the system is one thing, fixing education, communities, there is a lot more that needs to happen. this is essential. we are behind at federal level with what the states have done. we're hopeful this will happen before the end of the year. in thehat were you doing prison employment? guest: i was a present guard in massachusetts. i was a guard. a number ofg over people i grew up with, kids i grew up with in the same neighborhood. they dropped off in middle

school. i had forgotten about them and didn't see them in high school and i saw them when i was working in prison. they dropped out of school. they did not have parental support. if they did, they became drug addicts, or did not follow that support. they went to criminal means to feed addictions and ended up in prison. no money, no resources. a couple are still in. one and it up murdering someone. he needs to be in for life. wrong place, runtime. that was eye-opening for me. i was fortunate. i grew up in worcester, massachusetts. i had parents who were strict with me and did not let me do all the things i wanted to do and maybe made me do things i didn't want to do. maybe that saved me from making a bad mistake. it was eye-opening. after that job, to help pay for college, i worked in a factory

as a janitor in a town outside of western, massachusetts. they broughtends, in people from the local work release, 68 inmates, most of them were nice guys who could not get a break. there was no opportunities to get out of where they were. a circle and cycle of incarceration, generational. there were six of them, good guys. two of them were not. that is the general distribution of society anyway. what brian stevenson said is so right. he talks about being proximate to an issue. and proximate to the cause to the solution. i was proximate to who goes to prison in this country from a young age. it was my knucklehead friends who did not have resources.

that is most. we live in a stratified society. politicians, left and right, demagogues so much on this issue for political reasons, we have made this thing where everyone is willie horton or el chapo. this place for people who we do not want to deal with. undesirables. they cycle through again and again. it is based on property. -- poverty. this is one very to opportunity. 2009 thata study in said if we have not engaged in over incarceration of people during the war on drugs, we could have reduced the crime rate by 20%. i think that is right. want to shoot for that. want to shoot for lower crime rates. we want people to transform. we believe most people can

succeed if they get the opportunity, and if we can get the barriers out of their way. host: phoenix, arizona. caller: good morning. how are you doing? guest: good. caller: i was convicted of a felony when i was 15 years old. i have something of a unique story. convicted as a sex offender when i touched the breast of an older woman. the first person i was put in jail with as a first-time offender was the person that arizona was rewriting its juvenile death penalty laws on. that is the kind of things that need to be looked at. that the caller from

new hampshire was correct in saying that jails and prisons make better criminals. offender,-time young i was put in with a hard-core murderer, drug addict. host: let's take that. guest: you are right. that is part of the problem. we overuse prison for people that do not need it. it didn't sound like you needed it. there were other things that they could have done to do with your situation. i am sorry. we're trying to reform these systems. we need to keep doing it. host: shelby and tennessee. -- in tennessee. caller: thank you, mr. holden and c-span. offenders and hired, when are they first come in the system,

need background checks and also mental, emotional assessments. psychiatristo be a of high standards. initially and periodic follow-ups to keep track of them. rehabilitation and for those that can get out there and get a second chance. host: let's take the first part of your comments about psychologists. guest: i agree with what she is saying. we need to have support for people in prison. we need to have support for staff. it is a stressful job. they're dealing with things none of us want to deal with. andeed support the officers

counselors and others who are working in the prison system. i was at the york state prison in nebraska yesterday. phenomenal staff working hard. partnering to try to make people better. that is what we want. in the first act, there will be de-escalation training for staff in the bureau of prisons. the first reaction is throwing solitary --hole in ways to avoid that. at the end of the day, people who work in prisons are doing god's work as well. it is a tough job. i'm not saying they are perfect. most people who get into these jobs want to do the right thing. transition from the tough on crime era to what we call the smart on crime, soft on taxpayer era. this will lead to a better place for all of us. we're doing our part. one group, we started this past

year is called take second chances. we hope it will be the game changer in reentry. we are a pilot states. pennsylvania, texas, kentucky and florida. we have half the groups coming out, people coming out of prison, half are getting what the prisons offer for people getting reentry into society and the other half, in an innovative approach working with local providers to help them be successful in what they are doing. different programs, different therapy. we will share our data. putting data together. carrie davis is a professor at fsu, who is a phenomenal person working on these issues forever. she will run the research. john is with our friends at right on crime, a lawyer with a history in the system as well who is running our research.

we are running this real-time. when we see a barrier for opportunity for someone coming out of prison, occupational license issues, john and his team was try to fix that and get that barrier out of the way and let this person succeed. we are working closely with states. we will fail fast, and succeed more. host: if our viewers want to learn more, go to freedompartner s.org. mark holden is the chair. thank you. guest: happy thanksgiving. host: same to you. when we come back, chris whipple, will be joining us to talk about president trump's promise of a white house shakeup will ber on, lisa davis here to talk about federal programs to combat childhood hunger. we will be right back.

>> who was martin van buren? good question. a lot of people thought we need to ask that question. he was the eighth president of the united states. he is often forgotten. his presidency was four years long. a biography of martin van buren. >> he spent a lot of time with aaron burr, hamiltons murderer. there were rumors, persistent throughout the life of martin van buren, so persistent that gorevidal even planted them in his novel, that he may have been the illegitimate son of aaron burr. we do not know. no one will ever know. john quincy adams once wrote in his diary that martin van buren

looks a lot like aaron burr. he asked a lot like aaron burr -- acts a lot like aaron burr. trying to organize factions and getting political alliances together. >> sunday night at 8:00 eastern on q&a. c-span, where history on full daily. in 1979, c-span was created as a public service by america's cable television companies. today we continue to bring you unfiltered coverage of congress, the white house, the supreme court and public policy events in washington dc and around the country. c-span is brought to you by your cable or satellite provider. washington journal continues. host: joining us from new york,

chris whipple, author of the book, gatekeeper. thank you for being here. i want to begin with the president saying he is changes,ng white house staff shakeups. the brookings institution chart amows the president's a te turnover from year-to-year. the blue bar represents the president's first year. the green, his second year. the purple, third. 's first year,p turnover is higher than any other president, almost double. in the green, his second year is pretty consistent with other presidents. what do you make of it? guest: it has been tremendous

turnover. it is not the first time a white house has been riven by conflict. wasreagan white house sometimes a circular firing squad. they had anat case, empowered, very effective white house chief of staff named james a baker the third. he was considered the hated pragmatist. the guy who would not let reagan be reagan. but he was savvy enough to make the right alliances. and, therefore, he was very effective at making a functioning white house. thattunately, i'm afraid donald trump has learned all the wrong lessons from his first two years as president. chief among those lessons is that he really needs to empower white house chief of staff who can tell him what he does not want to hear. that has not happened. host: did that happen with john kelly? guest: john kelly has really

failed, i think, as white house chief of staff in a number of ways. you know, the title of least effective white house chief of staff in modern history used to belong to don reagan, hands-down. reagan's second ill-fated white house chief of staff, he was arrogant, he was imperious, he was politically inept. john kelly has been all of those things and in addition to that, john kelly has been unable to build of the most important thing every white house chief of staff must do to be effective, and that is looking at the oval office, closing the door, and telling the president what he does not want to hear. just to give you a recent example, they would have signed off on the appointment of whitaker, as acting attorney general, compromised as he obviously is. and so it's just the latest example of kelly being very ineffective as white house chief. host: what characteristics does

mr. kelly have that you think don't work as a chief of staff, and what characteristics does a successful chief of staff need to have? guest: i mentioned the arrogance. i mentioned that he has been politically inept. you know, there's another thing that i think he has as a real weakness, and that is that john kelly has reinforced all of donald trump's worst partisan instincts. donald trump has yet to learn that there's a difference between campaigning, which is dividing, demonizing, and disrupting, and governing, which is building coalitions and actually getting things done. the only legislative accomplishment in his first two cut, which,tax frankly, went to multimillionaires. there is a reason for that. he has not learned that there's a difference between campaigning and governing and is a white house chief job, to help the president figure that out. john kelly has failed to do that. host: the president was on fox

news sunday, and this is what he had to say about possible shakeups at the white house. >> are you happy with your to nielsen? trump: i like her a lot, she's very smart. i want her to get much tougher and we'll see what happens. but i will be extremely tough. >> what are the chances she will be secretary? trump: this a chance, that's what happens in government. you leave, you go. not left ofho have done very well, the people who have left have done very well from my white house. i like her very much, i respect your very much. i would like her to be much tougher. on the border. much tougher, period. >> back in july, you said that john kelly will be here come 2020. do you still say that? trump: well, look. we get along well. there are certain things i love what he does and there are

certain things that i don't like that he does. do --ot that he doesn't he works so hard, he's doing an excellent job in many ways, there are a couple of things where it's just not his strength. it's not his fault, it's not his strength. >> such as? trump: i have not even thought about john in terms of this. john will move on. >> the 2020 is no longer -- trump: it could be. but let's see what happens. i have three or four or five positions on thinking about. maybe it's going to end up being two. but i need flexibility. host: what do you make of the president openly talking with the american people about what he likes and what he doesn't like? guest: you notice, he wasn't very specific about kelly. i suspect that one of the things he's referring to, one of the areas where he things that john

kelly is weak as with his political ability. his ability to get things done on capitol hill. having said that, i really think that none of these changes will amount to much more than window dressing unless donald trump can get the first job right, and that's the white house chief of staff. it took clinton a year and a half to figure out that he needed a white house chief of differenceke all the to his presidency and frankly, without it, i'm not sure clinton would have got a second term. jimmy carter waited two and a half years before actually getting the title of chief of to that hamilton who up point had been a defective chief. it wasn't until his last year in office that jimmy carter appointed a terrific white house chief, very effective, but it was too late for carter. if donald trump wants to be jimmy carter, he should just keep doing exactly what he's doing.

failing to empower a white house chief to execute his agenda and tell him what he does not want to hear. i think it's critical that he gets that part right. oft: our guest is the author this book, gatekeepers, how the white house chief of staff defines every presidency. you have a new chapter on president trump. what do you write about? guest: that's true. well, it's the new chapter in the paperback, based on exclusive interviews with reince previous. preeince previous -- bus. the first thing he said to me when we sat down off the record was, take everything you've heard and multiply it by 50. i was reminded of that when i read the new york times yesterday, that donald trump had know, had really wanted to prosecute hillary clinton and james comey.

really, it's banana republic stuff. how just another example of you have to have an empowered white house chief to give you a reality check. richard nixone threatening to prosecute john kennedy or hubert humphrey or george mcgovern? absolutely unthinkable, outrageous, the auntie doubt. the kind of white house chief of staff should just drive a stake through the moment it's even broached. but that is coming with the job. host: what about the role of the vice president? there's a kind of relationship he or she could have with a president. guest: it's funny you should bring that up, because i talked to dick cheney about it. dick cheney was of course, people forget, but he was gerald ford's 35-year-old white house

chief of staff way back when, in the 70's. obviously, later became may be most powerful vice president in modern history. cheney told me that the white house chief of staff has more power than the vice president. that's true, except when cheney was vice president. general, vice presidents are really like spare tires. they really do not do much in terms of governing. they famously attend funerals. the vice president was once compared to a warm bucket of spit back in the day. and that really has not changed very much. without important job any doubt as white house chief. host: the president recently tweeted about the vice president, vice president pence, his relationship, saying that the new york times has a phony story as usual about his relationship with him.

they made up sources and refuse to ask me, the only one that would know, for a quote. the white house is running very smoothly and the results are obviously very good. we are the envy of the world but anytime i even think about making changes, the fake news media goes crazy. always seeking to make us look as bad as possible. very dishonest. respond to that? guest: like this has been for two years, the dysfunctional white house, whatever donald trump may say to the contrary. just look at history. it's not even a question about it in terms of the effectiveness. this white house was unable to pass any major legislation except for the tax cut and the only way they were able to achieve that was by keeping president trump 100 miles away from it. they failed, they could not even issue executive orders that were enforceable as we saw with the immigration than from day one -- the immigration ban from day

one. sadly, if you are a donald trump supporter, i think you have to look at this white house and conclude that it has really been enthralled with part right ideologues who have no idea how to govern. with the border policy, we saw it. with repeal and replace, where they had no idea what they were going to replace obamacare with, it has just been a continuing ineptitude for two years. of that on john kelly because he has not been politically effective. he has been politically inept. notion that the president is a well oiled machine is frankly preposterous. let's get our viewers involved. what are your thoughts that the president is considering changes to his staff and the roles of the staff has played so far? democrats, (202) 748-8000. republicans, (202) 748-8001.

independents, (202) 748-8002. first of all, what are the implications for the legislative agenda with this much turnover? guest: the implications are again, not good. unless donald trump can figure out how to get a white house chief in place to execute his agenda. -- if you asked most of us who the most effective white house chiefs are, the two best in modern history were under ronald reagan and bill clinton. these are guys who have been around the block. they knew capitol hill very well. they were grounded. baker was a 50-year-old texas attorney who could walk into the oval office," or, and tell ronald reagan the hard truth. need to getyou

stuff done on capitol hill. agenda,legislative there's been talk about the chief of staff to vice president byce, and i'm sure he is, all accounts, a very smart guy. and he's politically savvy, obviously, the bar is pretty low after john kelly. but i wonder if he is the guy who can walk into the oval office and tell donald trump what he does not want to hear. host: why do you wonder that? guest: i think that's a tough order for somebody with as much experience as he has had. dick cheney was 35 years old when he became white house chief. but there are very few people who walk the face of this earth who can walk in, confront a donald trump, and tell him hard truth. order fort a tall anybody, much less somebody with his experience. host: texas, democrat.

good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for this call. as far as president trump considering the changes, i mean, it's really difficult because he himself has to really want to change. it's him. you could put good staff and members in there, you could put the smartest, the most effective -- all the effective cabinet members. can see, his history, donald trump's history, he has lost so many good ones of the very start. i mean, there were good people that were willing to work and make this nation a better nation, like he said, make america great again. i don't know where that is coming from, because it's a joke. chaotic ashouse is

any that i have ever -- i mean, it's beyond belief. it's a joke. guest: that's certainly true. look, it may well be mission impossible with donald trump. but having said that, think about -- if you are wondering if you are a trump support you are wondering, what happened to the art of the deal? what happened to the infrastructure bill that democrats brought up against the fbi. those are the kinds of things that could happen if you have the right people around you. here's an example. when ronald reagan became president, he was hell-bent right out of the gate on tackling social security reform. that's what he wanted to do. sat down with reagan and said mr. president, social security is absurd, touch it and you will be electrocuted, let's try something else.

the rest is history. there would have been no reagan revolution without jim baker. we, i'm not suggesting that hired jim baker as donald trump's chief of staff, but i do think that trump needs somebody like him with enough gravitas to tell him what he thinks. host: let's go to mike in missouri, independent. caller: yes, mr. whipple. it's amazing, as politically astute as you come up to be, that you have not been snapped up by one of the president's chiefs. what amazes me is that somebody in that position -- caller: pardon me? host: go ahead. guest: go ahead. caller: yeah. uh, it's easy to sit on the outside and criticize and criticize and criticize.

i talked and he told me this. i configure and tell you i'm a four-star general of the united states marine corps and you don't know that for a fact. you have not been in that position of authority, you don't really know what goes on. you are taking your information on what people tell you. i think you do a little digging, i did it, it's hard to prove a lot of things that you say. i don't agree with you, but i appreciate your point of view. host: ok, let's get a response. guest: it's a further point. i have not worked in the white house. all i know is what i've learned from having sat down and interviewed extensively 18 living white house chiefs of staff who have done the job. you are right, i can't pretend to have done the job myself or even to have worked in the white that and i will concede for openers.

but when you do talk to these white house chiefs of staff, it's really extraordinary how in hollywood, they say nobody knows any thing, in washington, nobody learns anything. lessons thatny these white house chiefs have to offer that i've tried to convey in my book. and all i can do is the best i can. host: missouri, democrat. caller: high, thanks for taking my call. trump one, i don't think could ever get a different chief of staff. do, he'ss them what to too arrogant, pompous, narcissistic. i mean, who else would go around wants is the ego stroking -- it's pathetic. he wanted to have a parade. really? these republicans are so disappointing. they let him do everything and anything. 1/10,ma would have done

but tip of the iceberg, they would still be talking about it. and they just are putting trump before the country. before the party, but for the country. and that's just wrong. host: mr. whipple? guest: it's a challenge as we said before, without question. him ford was punishing being in that job. it's not for the faint of heart. if donald trump is still convinced somehow that he can run the white house away he ran the 26th floor of trump tower, it just doesn't work that way. know, donald trump is not the first president to come into power full of hubris and toxic -- intoxicated by his political victory, thinking he's the smartest guy in the room. most presidents get over that. they realize at a certain point

that there's a difference between campaigning and governing. to me, that's donald trump -- one of his greatest failures. is that he still has not figured out that there's a difference between campaigning, which is dividing and demonizing and governing, which is bringing people together. and i think he had a chance to do that. i think this is almost the last chance for him to try to get to try to god, and in a different direction, and it will be interesting to see the pragmatists in the white house, and there are some -- if there are able to help them change course. host: mark is in seattle, independent. caller: yes, good show. i'm wondering if mr. whipple has been to miami book fair, but the main point is, why is he studying the chief of staff and not presidents? has he found that the chief of to thes key

effectiveness of the president? was that his main premise? and how far back to he go with presidents? with 18 chiefs of staff. host: ok. caller: huegel past fdr? -- did he go past fdr? guest: there's nothing in the constitution about a white house chief of staff. he's not elected. and he's really a modern invention. sherman adams was the first under eisenhower. he was the civilian version of the chief of staff. but it really started with nixon because he really wrote the modern template for the white house chief being the power cheap who really executed the president agenda. that really starts with him and it goes all the way up to the trump white house.

i didn't go in with any frequency -- preconceived idea but what stunned me about it is what i learned when i got through was that every president learns, often the hard way, that you cannot govern effectively without empowering a white house chief of staff to execute your agenda and tell you what you don't want to hear. lot, andon msnbc a lawrence o'donnell always gives me a hard time because he wants to white house chief of staff to define -- he always gets me that nobody but trump defines his presidency. and that is true. but it has not always been the case. host: republican from new jersey, you're next. caller: hello? host: good morning. caller: good morning. yes, i just have such a problem with people, intelligent people consistently opining about what

donald trump could do to be better. he is not normal. he is a 12-year-old. he would probably run it a little better. donald trump is incapable of doing better. and any chief of staff in the category of jim baker would not work for donald trump. because no one can tell them anything because first of all, he can't learn anything. anything you tell them, he can't retain it. because he sees incapable of it. the man has deep psychological issues, and i'm not saying that to be dirty. host: we got the point. before, it said could be mission impossible. job, it'snkless

absolutely all-consuming and you get all of the blame and none of the credit. and that's with an ordinary present. with trump, it's exponentially more difficult. so that's true. host: margaret in new york, democrat. caller: yes, good morning and thank you for inviting me under your program. do you haveed in -- three or four candidates, and how would you expect more decorah? past, he said we need more decorah in the white house. -- [inaudible] host: ch -- mr. whipple?

guest: it's a good question. picked to replace kelly if in fact from decides to replace them? and i think it's time. i think it has been like a bad marriage. trump and kerry are muddling through and i think that there is an understanding that there seems to become of a bargain in which kelly agrees not to tell trump stuff he does not want to hear, and trump keeps them there. and that's a bad formula for governing. i'm reluctant to name people or suggest people and quite frankly, as a said before, there are few people on the face of this earth who can tell donald trump what he does not want to hear. it's a tough situation. host: what about his family? including the first lady, who has been vocal about her he hassure with staff, his son-in-law and daughter who

are advisors. what about the role that they play? does that help or hurt? guest: i think it helps. i think family always helps. and i think with trump, clearly jared and a vodka -- ivanka and milani a have been helpful. i think they care about trying to make this white house unction more effectively. calledeagan was famously the white house personnel director. but she never suggested firing someone in public. as milani did recently. she may have more influence than we realize time the scenes. forward,ll see going but family is important for every president. florida, george is a republican. good morning. caller: good morning. how are you doing? host: doing well, thanks.

question or comment? caller: my comment and question is mr. whipple, what is named? host: yes. caller: i heard you talking, i've been listening to you go on and on about the bad things sounded. trump, and he much like stacey abrams, a crybaby down in georgia who can't find anything good to say about trump but it's always a bad thing. you have a problem with is a obama did nothing. 1%, he was just run a terrible president. trump has accomplished more than obama has done in eight years in two years. and i don't know what your complaint is, because you sound like a crybaby. you don't like his attitude? i think his attitude is great, is putting people down who have no idea what going on.

all you can do is sit there and complaint. host: all right george. guest: i'm just trying to give you my honest opinion having a look of 50 years of presidential history and the chiefs of staff who served. booming, trump has accomplishments on his watch. he has got judicial appointments. however, that obama, in his last 18 months, created more jobs in donald trump did in his first a team of jury so is a continuation of an economic boom. i just think that, given the potential for getting things done, but donald trump had when he came into office. if i were a trump supporter, i would be sorely disappointed. and i would simply recommend to you if you think that i'm biased about this, i would simply recommend that you pick up the book and read it because i think

i'm scrupulously nonpartisan and i give republicans -- republican sheets a hard time and democratic chiefs as well. let's go to the last call in idaho, republican. trumpism thing that's wrong with progressive liberal -- democrat and republican -- he he has madejobs -- the u.s. non-dependent on other he will not destroy this country and make it -- guest: what are you watching for? i have no comment on that. that's his opinion. i would simply say if you were a trump supporter, you may ever wonder what happened to the art of the deal when it came to repealing and replacing obamacare. when it comes to some of the other things.

that a moreaying effective white house chief of staff might actually help trump achieve his agenda. whipple, author of "gatekeepers: how the white house chief of staff to find guest: every presidency." thank you for the conversation. my pleasure, happy holidays. host: happy thanksgiving to you. . host: new with 30 million children in the united states live in families that are considered food insecure, meaning they can inconsistently provide enough nutrition for everyone in the family. coming up, we'll talk with lisa davis, senior director for the "no country" campaign about what her group is doing about it. "no kid hungry" campaign.

announcer: coming up think skipping we can on the c-span network. on c-span, thursday at 8 p.m. eastern, supreme court justice elena kagan followed by john roberts. friday at 8 p.m. eastern, former new jersey governor chris christie and others discuss the opioid epidemic. saturday at 8 p.m. eastern, photojournalist talk about their favorite photographs taken on the campaign trail. and sunday at 6:30 p.m. eastern, gun laws in self-defense. 830 p.m. eastern, retired general stanley talks about 13 great leaders. friday at 8 p.m. eastern on afterwards, political writer derek hunter. saturday at 8 p.m. eastern, pulitzer prize winning war photographer lindsay a dario talks about photos she has taken in the middle east. and sunday at 9 p.m. on afterwards, pulitzer prize winning journalist is a antonio vargas on american history tv on c-span3. 5:30.ay at

on american artifacts, so learning the first english thanksgiving at berkeley, virginia near jamestown. friday at 6:30 p.m. on the presidency, the functions of former first lady barbara bush. eastern, on8 p.m. lectures of history, how the pilgrims became part of america's founding story. and sunday at 9 a.m., talkitutional scholars about have the u.s. constitution defines impeachable offenses to the president. think skipping weekend on the c-span network. thanksgiving weekend on the c-span network. lisa davis is senior vice president for the "no kid hungry" campaign. what is the current status of children hungry in the united states? child hunger is an

invisible problem in the united states but it's very real. there are 13 million kids across the country located in every county, urban, rural, suburban, who live in families that don't always have access to enough food for the entire family. it looks really different. -- other it might be times it's a mom going without dinner a couple nights per week to make sure her kids can eat. or families that, after paying for a tank of gas to get to work, rent and utilities, don't have money to buy food. campaignps on hungry is focused on ending childhood hunger. electedork with officials, republicans, democrats, and independent, at every level of government. work with nonprofit partners to find proven solutions and remove barriers so that more kids can access the child attrition programs that are needed to help them.

the most important thing to know about childhood hunger is that it's a solvable problem. states, we have the resources in terms of programs that are designed to help make sure that kids can get the nutrition they need. in the winter, and the summer. in every zip code. timesallenges that often are not implemented as effectively as they can be. but simple solutions like changing the time that school breakfast is served, to make it part of the school day, and lamenting innovative solutions to deliver summer meals to kids and help get them to programs, working with schools to help them implement after school meal programs. making sure eligible families that qualify are connected with programs to help them buy food at home, we can really make sure that all of our kids are getting the three meals per day that they need to thrive. let's show our viewers the

participants by year. the number has gone down where it was almost at 46 million. now you're looking at about almost 40 less than 2017 and 2016. guest: we saw the numbers climb significantly in the wake of the great recession when unemployment was over 10% in many areas and families to find jobs for limited hours and limited wages. as the economy has gotten better and unemployment has declined, we've seen those numbers going down. ishink one of the challenges that this recovery has been a little bit different. we continue to see so many families still on the brink. americans will experience at least one year of poverty between the ages of 25 and 60. and in a recent federal reserve study, nearly half of americans will be unable to meet an unexpected financial emergency

of $400 or more. they would have to take out debt or just not be able to cover it. there are a lot of families that are still on the edge, even though when you look at the unemployment numbers and other statistics, it looks like we are doing much better. we are, but many families are struggling. host: what do they look like, what do they do? guest: they can be all sorts of different demographics. rural america, they are in urban america. and a lot of times, their families like my mom, females are the primary breadwinner in nearly half of american families. and for these women, they are making a lot of challenges. more than the moms like us. times, the job that they can find are lower wage. they have really unbreakable work schedules, and that makes finding childcare much less possible and challenging. they are trying to balance

working, taking care of kids, keeping utilities turned on, and they don't always have the resources for food. other families have a similar struggle. many of them are working. in fact, if you look at the with children, 80% of them are either working now or work in the year before or the year after. their wages just are not enough to help them meet the expenses that they have. host: we wants to hear our viewers stories and experiences and their thoughts on hunger in this country with children. we have divided the lines originally. central, (202) 748-8000. mountain or pacific, (202) 748-8001. we encourage you to call in with thoughts on this as well. you did a survey and you touched on this. many americans are just one unexpected bill away from disaster. 64% of low income parents say if

they -- it would be difficult to feed their children if they encountered in unexpected expense. when you think about it, that might seem like a lot of money, but those things do happen. imagine a child that has an unexpected illness, a broken arm and it comes out of pocket, even with insurance can add up. having had my car fixed recently, $1500 is nothing. there are so many families living on the brink. they might be getting by today, but any challenge could upset that applecart and really fractured that tenuous grip they have on being able to manage. legislation that congress works on every few years, it is up again. the headlines here from npr, it would shrink grocery budgets for more than one million households. now, the senate

house leaders are negotiating between a senate bill that recognized the important role that snape plays, not just in helping families, but for kids, there is a body of evidence that really demonstrates that when they receive help us children, they have better health care outcomes and lower health care costs. they do better in school. more likely to graduate and they ended up with higher lifetime earnings. snape is one of the best investments that we can make in and as corporate executives look at how they invest their funding, they look for approving products with a great track record and a strong return on investment. and that delivers this for the american taxpayers. the house, unlike the senate, cuts that would reduce benefits for families with children and then have many

of them a double whammy affect. his families are receiving stance, they are automatically qualified for free and reduced price school meals. if their families become an eligible, they lose access to those meals. kids, early 300,000 according to the congressional budget office, the families will lose much if not all and the kids will also lose those school meals. survey on school breakfast, only 56% of low-income students who rely on free or reduced price lunch are participating in school breakfast. 80% of teachers a hunger affects a student ability to concentrate. 76% of teachers say poor academic performance, and 62% see increased behavioral and discipline problems. guest: it makes sense. kids can't come to school hungry to learn if they are coming to school just plain hungry.

breakfast is important for everyone. but for low income kids who may not have had a meal since they had their school lunch the day before, that breakfast is really important. and simple things like changing when and how breakfast is served, moving it from before the school bell rings, when many kids have not yet made it to school, and serving in the first 10 minutes of class, where allowing kids to grab a bag meal, to take them to class, could have a huge impact. teachers across the country report that they are better focus, less likely to act out. they have the intrusion and the fuel to concentrate to make it to lunch. our first color in arkansas. i see a lot that i agree, but there's one group of people that we are leaving out. and i am one of them, but thank god that i'm able to send what i

need to with purchasing. i do live around a lot that are not able to. seniors and the disabled. we live on a fixed income and yet we don't qualify for any assistance. and if they do get any banktance, we get the food assistance. and that's every three months. sense,eel like in some those seniors and the disabled do need some extra assistance also. realize the children need help, i've got grandchildren, so i'm right there with it. but we do need to give extra assistance to the seniors and the disabled also. host: ok. guest: thank you so much for raising that point. i think it's a really important

one. when you look at snape, which helps people with grocery assistance, 84% of the benefits go to households with children, with a senior, or with someone who is disabled. but many seniors for a variety of reasons are not participating in the program and when they do, they are qualifying for very limited benefits. we talk about the impact in cancal costs that some have. seniors can be particularly vulnerable to some of those costs. at programs like snap that help make sure everyone gets the nutrition that they need, we really do need to be thinking about seniors and disabled as well and making sure that they are taken care of. host: connie, tennessee. caller: good morning. as a double-amputee who is i tried to start pushing might snap benefits.

$15,though it's only about that portion every month to healthy a child, especially a child of a single mother. i believe adults who are responsible for feeding their children who don't feed the children should be held criminally liable. it's an outrage. my angry about it, it breaks heart every time i see a hungry child. and i wish i could do more. i'm just not able to. have a blessed day. guest: thank you for your generosity and your passion. why i know you are that we can end childhood hunger and hunger for people of all ages. it's really inspiring what you are doing, going into thanksgiving. and i think looking at childhood hunger, it is because of the passion of people like you, the passion of many of our elected

officials from mayor offices to governor offices, to folks on between, theyn are very focused on this issue and nonprofits. there are proven solutions to make sure that every child in america, no matter what they are born in, no matter what the family circumstances, can get the nutrition they need so that they can achieve their full potential in life. host: james, and wisconsin. caller: well, thank you for answering my call. host: we are listening. in wisconsin, in don'trn wisconsin, they let people starve to death or not to get food.

i don't know where this is coming from. we don't. there are a lot of us that our scandinavian, so. host: what our states doing? yes, one of the most exciting aspects of this is that even when a lot of us are focused on some of the gridlock congress, governors are getting it done in statehouses across the country. spouses have really embraced the issue of childhood hunger and have used their platform to convene folks from the nonprofit, from state agencies to start identifying solutions to help get more food to kids in need and make progress. past couplein the years, we've seen really exciting progress in red states and blue states and states in between.

good morning. caller: good morning. i would like to address a couple of things. back when i was in college, i was on snap for a while, i was going back to school. we had a, percival, trying to buy nutritious food, even with the snap program is difficult to stretch those dollars enough to get good food. -- i would also like to address the guest who said the food deserts in some of your big cities where there is no way to get good nutritious food, even if you qualify for these programs. guest: those are excellent questions and thank you for raising them. note,k it's important to that even for the families to get snap, the benefits are not generous. they equate to be about one dollar 40 per person, per meal. and as you've noted, it's really hard to afford a variety of nutritious foods. parents, who are

looking at every dollar and trying to maximize it, they also can't take a chance with of those dollars. broccoli can be a big splurge if you are not sure your kids are going to eat it, and it's going to go in the garbage can. so when you are stretching dollars, and we know that about 90% of snap benefits are used up by the third week in the month, they just don't last the entire month. people have fewer options. i think it's time to re-examine that food plan that snap benefits are based on to make sure that benefits are set to foster health and nutrition as well as just allowing people to afford food to get through three weeks of the month. and i think that a food desert issue is a really important one. the last farm bill contained a pilot project to experiment with

allowing people to use snap to have entries for online delivery which i think is really important to reaching those areas where bricks and mortar shops don't exist. there's interesting work going on with family markets and pop-up markets, but it's really important to make sure that every american, no matter the income or where they live, has access to enough healthy nutritious food to make it through the month. host: we will go to bobby in texas. bobby, you are on the air. wanting toas just say, let me tell you something. these folks need to get off the snap and get off government assistance. if you can't afford the children, don't have them. i mean, it's that simple. got to go tax dollars to these folks that can't afford to have their children to buy them food? guest: thank you for your

opinion. bobby. investingoned before, in snap, particularly for our kids, is one of the smartest investment we can make as taxpayers. and growing body of research that shows that making sure that kids get the nutrition they need lowers health care costs by about 25% or $1400 per year. it leads to an almost 20% greater graduation rate, they do better in school, and they become our workforce of the future. it has a high return on investment. i think there's a lot of misconception about people on snap. so let's back up ensure a couple of facts. 80% of emily's with children on snap are either working now, or they worked the year before they were on snap or the year after. really provides a lifeline

for families when they fall on hard times. even folks on snap and working are working are very low wages. they are only able to find part-time or seasonal work. -- on a working hard job to support their family. i think all of us, no matter where we fall on the political spectrum, can agree that a good job is the best pathway out of poverty and we want to help support people and make sure that every american has access to those kinds of jobs. but the reality is, for a lot of folks, those jobs that will allow them to support their family just are not there. and so we need to have programs like snap making sure that they and their children and our seniors and are disabled neighbors, they get the nutrition that they need. and they work hard to get back on their feet. but thank you. host: michigan. caller: yes, hello. i'm calling because it's a lot

of childhood hunger in the united states. i lot of 30 things the united states government is doing to the people like kidnapping and wiretapping their phones, taking them from their families. ok, -- host: ok, susan in chicago. caller: i'm a volunteer at a local food pantry. of one millionck dollar houses on it, and we also have one of the highest rates of affordable housing in this particular area of the city. it makes my blood boil what i hear people talk about not wanting to give away. we are open for days per week. people can come in any time we are open. of these people are refugees and live in the neighborhood that has always been a port of entry. it's in the middle of chicago.

and i just can't believe that people are that parsimonious. .nd i have to give a shout out guest: we are very lucky to have folks like you and others working hard to make sure families can get the emergency food they need. one of the things that really isn't understood about hunger is that in a lot of high-cost areas, a significant number of the families are facing food insecurity and have incomes that put them just above the level of qualifying for federal nutrition programs. for those family, pantries like yours really are a critical support. and it could truly end childhood hunger. we need to be working on multiple levels. we need to be sure families can

get that emergency food assistance to help them meet their needs at home. that we are strengthening important programs like snap after school and summer meals, school lunch, to make sure that kids are getting the meals that they need throughout the year and we are alleviating a little bit of the pressure that those hard-working families are facing, trying to stretch dollars to cover ever rising housing costs. utilities, to work, health care costs. school supplies for kids. and we also need to make sure that we are investing in tograms that help people find better and more effective --s so that they can move to i'm working on all of those in leveraging the strengths of our elected officials.

the amazing and committed volunteers that we see all across the country, i know that we can end childhood hunger. host: north carolina. caller: good morning, i just wanted to talk about for a second -- nobody, i have never heard anybody say yes, we want hungry children. we know it affects their concentration when they are in school. we want hungry elderly because we know that it -- and they have to choose between medicine and food and that is good. i have never heard anyone say that. but what we are not is, although nobody wants hungry people, we do not, not the democrats come another republicans, not the independence, nobody wants people to be hungry. we know that it's a terrible thing. so now we have to stop and think, how do we do this? how do we take care of our

hungry people? well, we have to decide. do we take care of our own that are in our country? what the number that we are letting in so that we have to feed them and take care of them? what is the number? let's come up with a number that we can -- rationally, realistically take care of and still be able to take care of the ones we already have. we have to think about that because money does matter. expense does matter. it -- to undock undocumented immigrants have access to the school programs, the lunch programs? no. there are protections against making sure that undocumented immigrants can't participate in the program. in most cases, with a few exceptions, legal immigrants have to be in the country for a certain number of years before they can access those programs.

she makes a really good point that there is no caucus. nobody is pro-hunger. regardless of whether you are democrat or republican or independent. there's a strong recognition that hunger is a bad thing that we can put nation. the nation.s i think it's important to continue working to find that common ground and educate our elected officials about the facts. how these programs work and the tremendous opportunities that we have to solve childhood hunger. i think it's also important to recognize that particularly for investing in making sure that they are getting the nutrition they need is a smart investment that saves money on health care costs, education costs. it leads to a better prepared workforce. whether a child is born in the united states or is here for

other reasons, i think we can all agree that feeding them is really important. it is an investment that will have a very strong return. daddy, for your question and your opinion -- thank you, debi, for your question and opinion. host: ohio. caller: it seems that we only have so much to go around and we are not taking care of our country first. i think it's good to help other places, but you've got to get our thing on track. there's nothing quite like the economy that is moving that will help less people taking food stamps because they can't get a job. one thing we could do today is check with their pantries and turn our pantries every three months because a lot of times there is food sitting in their that people could get more shelf space but a lot of people could use that food and i would be surprised how much we turn up at

food pantries if we just did that every three-month. host: ok. guest: thank you. i appreciate it, especially as we go into thanksgiving. i think hunger and families and all of our committees in need are very much top of mind. i want people to remember that this is a problem that is happening 365 days per year in the holiday season, the spring, summer, and fall. of all ofreciative the commitments that your viewers bring and that so many of you are engaged in fighting hunger in your communities and i commend you for that. youre you to continue efforts, and to think about supporting your local pantries. but also, reaching out to your local elected officials and letting them know that childhood hunger is really unacceptable and that you would like them to

make childhood hunger in your community a priority. because the programs are there. and the ways to end childhood hunger. what we are really lacking as a nation is that urgency and that political will. and i'm really excited that with so many new elected officials coming in at every level of government, we have a real opportunity to create that urgency and that political will. to end childhood hunger and move on to tackle the next problem. host: you can find out more if you go to kno -- nokid hungry.org. thanks to all of you for watching that. that's it for today's washington journal. happy thanksgiving a we will be back here tomorrow at 7 a.m. ♪

>> tonight on c-span, steve bannon, former strategist for president trump, and a former speechwriter for resident george w. bush, discuss the rise of populism in western nations. this idea of america first, or hungry first, or france first, or germany first, it gets progressively less attractive as we name the other countries who put themselves first. we left that behind to say that we will build a community of democratic nations who understand that of course there are clashing interests to be worked out, but we are stronger when we work cooperatively and we can build peace and prosperity. that's the idea. .n the truest sense

because the thing we've been arguing about for 200 years is, is the relationship between human beings one of domination and oppression, or one of potential fruitful cooperation? [applause] that is the question on the ballot tonight. >> you can see all of the discussion between steve bannon and david frum tonight on c-span starting at 8:00 eastern. the topic is whether rising populism represents a meaningful change in modern politics or just a passing phase. c-span, where history unfolds daily. c-span was created as a public service by america's cable television companies, and today, we continue to bring you unfiltered coverage of congress, the white