of how to be less stupid about race. later, new york magazine's washington correspondent olivia nuzzi joins us to talk about funding for border security and staffing changes in the white house. host: good morning. a live view of our nations capital with the christmas tree on this day before christmas eve. day two of a partial government shutdown, affecting an estimated 800,000 government workers. the house and senate return tomorrow in what will be pro forma sessions. by all accounts, this session will continue until thursday evening. this is the third time this year congress and the white house have forced a shutdown. billiontle is over $5

for a wall on the u.s.-mexico border. who is responsible for the shutdown? who gets the blame? that is our question. the phone lines are open. if you support the shutdown, (202) 748-8000. if you oppose it, (202) 748-8001 . all federal workers, (202) 748-8002. send us a tweet. we will read it. join us on facebook. good sunday morning. a busy day, busy week ahead. questions loom over the government shutdown shutdown standoff to stretch past christmas. we will get to this in a moment. we want to share with you this story from indonesia where a tsunami believed to be triggered by a volcanic corruption killing people over a busy

holiday weekend, sweeping away homes and hotels. more than 700 people were reported injured after the tsunami hit in the evening. 30 others remain missing. dramatic footage posted on social media showing a pop band performing on a popular beach. this video courtesy of cnn. ,ou can see as the tsunami hit the death toll at least 222 from indonesia. we want to get to your phone calls on the government shutdown, expected to last until thursday at least. this is from the washington post, standoff to stretch past christmas. details from reporters that cover the capital. parts of the federal government

are expected to last through much of next week. the decision came after the president had lunch with conservative republicans. to theatched mike pence capital to make a last-minute offer to chuck schumer. that offer was not accepted. from india. caller: good morning. merry christmas. host: merry christmas. caller: i oppose the government shutdown. payel that as taxpayers, we federal taxes. we deserve a healthy, functioning government. many over the past few years, so many partial government shutdowns. i am very concerned at the

continuing level of dysfunction and the inability of our representatives to talk to one another and to make compromises and make deals for the good of the country and for the american people, who they are sent there to represent. it is just crazy at this holiday season that is supposed to be about love and compassion and ,iving that this is on display not only for our country, but the entire world. message concern is what is this sending to the world about us as a country? about the stability of our government? host: thank you for the call. let's go to carol next from arkansas, supports the shutdown. caller: good morning. merry christmas to all.

i support it because i feel that it is time all of them in washington need to grow up. they need to stop playing the blame game in my opinion. ,t is time, and i agree with whenthey approve the wall president obama was there. did, they agreed with it. now they are saying we don't agree with this. it is time they all stop playing the blame game. host: thank you for the call. a live view of the u.s. capital. our vantage point from the national mall. georgia.next from you oppose the shutdown. why? caller: because donald trump accepted the he

shutdown. i am a little nervous because i have not been in in quite a while. there are hundreds of thousands workers who are urloughed orfor have to go to work with no pay at christmas time. not a merry christmas to them, not a merry christmas to the american people. $50 billion of taxpayer money for the wall, it is just absolutely ridiculous. i agreed completely with your first caller. host: thank you for the call.

no need to be nervous. please call and again. we are getting your reaction to the government shutdown. whose fault is it? this is the headline from the hill newspaper as washington races for a lengthy shutdown. the president last night with this tweet regarding general mattis, the defense secretary who is leaving in general. when president obama fired general mattis, i gave him another chance. some thought i shouldn't. i thought i should. withdrawing troops from syria leading to the defense secretary and the special envoy in charge

of isis stepping down. this headline, the trade again by washington. there allg signs were along, yet donald trump's decision to pull troops out of syria stunned kurds. dashed,pes have been and now they must either return to the mountains in a bid for survival or return to a brutal assaad regime. the united states has simply used them essentially as if they were a private security company in pursuit of its own diversion strategic agenda. shutdown.e government yesterday, when the senate convened for a brief session, there was this from the senate

republican leader from kentucky, mitch mcconnell. [video clip] >> here is where we are. the senate will meet for a pro .orma session on monday the next scheduled session will be on december 27. as i said earlier today when we theed, i am glad productive sessions -- discussions are continuing. when we get 60 votes in the senate, a majority in the house, and the presidential signature, at that point we will take it up on the senate floor. senators will be notified when a vote is scheduled. meantime, the discussions and negotiations continue. host: that is where things stand at this moment.

the senate and house back tomorrow morning for brief sessions. the senate gaveling in on thursday. no activity for christmas day or december 26. we will be following it all on c-span. this is a live view of the u.s. capital along the mall. this tweet from jodey, with the wheels coming off our government and so many empty positions, does it really matter if the government officially shuts down? harry is joining us from maryland. good morning. caller: thanks for letting me on. i particularly liked the first lady who spoke who opposed the shutdown. she showed compassion for the season. congressssue is the has the responsibility to do a comprehensive program on immigration, and they are not

doing it. the republicans want cheap labor. votes.ocrats want that is what is driving all of this. they have totally politicized the issue, which is solvable. it is up to the congress, not the president. send him a bill that is comprehensive, and then we will stop all this nonsense and noise that we get every day from the white house. the republicans, i believe, are getting close to finally speaking out about what trump is doing to this country. host: thank you for the call. george, you are next. welcome to the conversation. caller: yes, how are you? host: fine, thank you. i want you to do something for me. when you have people that call in the support the wall, i would like you to ask them, were you

one of those that hollered mexico was going to pay for it? these people are amazing. documentedady been be finewas going to with short-term funding until he heard from and coulter and rush limbaugh. this guy has no business in the white house. i will ask you again, all you people out there that are listening right now, were you one of those hollering mexico was going to pay for? i want to know what you think about it now. he said they were going to pay for it. why has this changed? when chuck schumer nancy pelosi were in the office with him, all they had to do was say to him, you said mexico is going to pay for. this guy has no substance at all. thank you. host: the shutdown will stretch

until at least thursday as the adjournsd -- until thursday. congress shuttered for christmas amid a stalemate with president trump over boardwalk funding. the decision came after a lunch with conservative republicans and the present. that meeting ended after 30 minutes with no resolution. workers 400,000 federal are expected to sit home without pay until a deal is reached. dozens of national parks and monuments were closed saturday. the security and exchange servicesn has listed it will soon suspect. agencies deemed

essential will continue working without pay, including many tsa officials. travel, one of the busiest travel times of the season. joe is joining us from florida. you support the shutdown. why? caller: yes, i support the president. an outstanding job in fulfilling his campaign promises, one of which is building the wall. he said mexico would pay for it, but that is still something that can be done in time. initially, our own government must do the installation of the wall i approving the $5 billion the president has asked for. it is important congress meet the president's agenda because the people voted for him for this very reason. i support the president. he is doing a great job. he has fulfilled his promises

that he has campaigned for. host: let me go back to your point. you said mexico will pay for it in time, how? how do they pay for it? caller: there is always the issue with trade where they can be paying certain tariffs that they are not currently paying in order to import their products. this would be one way to collect money from mexico in order to pay for the wall. host: joseph from florida. this is the headline from the dallas morning news. we talked to their euro chief in washington yesterday. notcruz says trump will capitulate over the $5 billion demand. that is enough for 250 miles of border wall, half of it replacement.

seattle.rom good morning. caller: we need to stop the drugs from coming in. we need the wall. the drugs are financing the homeless situation in seattle looks like a city don't along interstate five. -- dump along interstate five. chucky schumer is the most negative person in the united states of america. he has very little love for this country. it shows. he is so negative. the people are sick and tired of it. 115 billion. heis going to get what wants. the american people voted him in. we don't want any more wars in afghanistan and syria. these mothers, the families are suffering. we need to take care of our intricatown country. host: how does the president

work with the democrats? caller: i will pay for half of his counseling. host: get beyond that. how do you solve the problem? caller: common sense. the voters voted the president in because we have theon sense, which democrats don't have. host: you're not answering the question. to do the parties come gether? caller: talk to mike pence. he seems the most balanced. caller: good morning.

there was a group of soldiers sent to the border that did not get to enjoy thanksgiving. rarely do i call. cspan is great model for these situations. rarely do i call. the gentleman from michigan described this whole situation. the gentleman from seattle had no right. you asked him a question. what is his solution? there is no solution. the president don't have a clue how to run this office or the government. you asked the question, what is

the solution? we have someone at 1600 pennsylvania avenue who doesn't have a clue. about theman talked congressmen, they are getting paid. thank you to cspan for coming to the forefront of these conversations. we are off the hinges. this is the first time in the history. they keep bringing up obama. he was elected. all he had to do is do what he thinks is best. which is zero. he is the zero president of the u.s. merry christmas to those

workers who are not getting paid. host: willie from georgia. a live view from the smithsonian castle. there are partial closures. bigger worries are brewing. fred has this tweet, this is about depriving trump of a win on the border. the american people are going to suffer. we will get to another tweet in a moment. this is from carol who says donald trump changed his mind and decided to take the advice of rush limbaugh and ann coulter. he said he would take the blame. it is on him. the stock market has its worst

december since 1931, losing nearly 2000 points in the last week alone. isitico, the president possibly looking at firing the fed chair. the administration is moving to reassure congress and markets that the president will not fire jay powell. a pair of senior republicans publicly urged the president not to fire jay powell. steven mnuchin said he had spoken to the present and president trump has never indicated he would fire powell. the president criticized the chairman, saying i totally disagree with the chairman, shrinking interest rates is a terrible thing to do. headline, republicans warning against firing fed

chair. richard shelby had lunch with the president yesterday, warning the president not to do that. back to your phone calls. greg is joining us from pennsylvania. you support the government shutdown. why? yes, good morning. caller: yes. host: go ahead. caller: yes, i do support the president. host: you are on the air. we can hear you. caller: yes. i do support the president. i don't understand why he can't use the military funds that he $715 billion dollars, and it is an invasion to our country. why can't he take money out of that $715 billion and have the

military build the wall. host: next is kristin from illinois, opposes the shutdown. good morning. you are on the air. go ahead. caller: it is very heated this morning, right before christmas. it is a shame. i oppose the shutdown. nobody has once talked about the deficit. such a bad deficit right now. i hear them saying about drugs and illegals. there have always been drugs. in florida, there have been drugs. he wanted his own way. the benefit ofm the doubt regardless of who i voted for. the wall is the least thing we need to worry about. look at our stock market. we need to worry about our deficit and that people actually get a check that they worked hard for. the call.k you for

the president last night, i will not be going to florida because of the shutdown, staying in the white house. wille told the first lady be returning from mar-a-lago, from what was supposed to be a 17 day new year's break. the present here until the least thursday. this is the headline inside the washington post, pictures of closing across the country. kim is joining us from wisconsin. good morning. caller: good morning, c-span. merry christmas, america. to me, i think this was necessary and only for a short while. here is my point. the whole problem is going to be the grand bargain. trump is bargain is

going to get some partial wall, probably in the most vital places. the democrats, what i encourage nancy pelosi and chuck schumer to do is to make that grand bargain. in return, we want protection want --ller, and we that is the basic thing. that is all i've got. host: some think the agreement should be money for the wall and daca, allowing those in the country a path to citizenship. what you think of that? i will tell you any .onfirmation -- combination the grand bargain, sooner or later, there has got to be a bargain. daca, we had a deal

on that once. then the president raised the bar, and had to have more. the grand bargain will come. number one, i want mueller detected because i think this president is as crooked as a snake. host: thank you. this is front page of the new york times, isolated leader sees war every day as the turmoil deepens. this is from michael steele, long time republican advisor. it is entirely possible it gets worse, not better. that is available online. randy is next from kentucky, supporting the government shutdown. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you. i voted for president trump because of what he said and how he was going to spend my money.

i pay a lot of taxes money. the money we pay in taxes to be spent the way he said he was going to spend it. we agreed with that premise. we agreed with the reasoning for doing that. that is what we would like. if our money is not spent the way we vote people in to spend it, what kind of government to we have? what good is our form of government? tell me. that is basically what it is, shut it down and keep it down. get the whole money he said he was going to get. get the whole amount of money that we were promised when we voted for him. this is not on us. this is just what we wanted. willing to pay for that as taxpayers, then give us what we want and what we voted for. host: thank you for the call.

another story that broke when the house and senate convened, brett mcgurk is leaving at the end of this month in a dispute on syria. this is available on the new york times. the american leading the isis fight is leaving. he has accelerated his resignation, telling colleagues that he could not in good conscience carry out president trump's policy of withdrawing american troops from syria. he said the recent decision by the president came as a shock and was a complete reversal of policy that was articulated. they left our coalition partners confused and are fighting partners disoriented. as many of you have heard, i ultimately concluded i could not carry out these new instructions and maintain my integrity. that on the announcement that

brett mcgurk is stepping down. the present tweeting, brett mcgurk, who i did not know, was appointed by president obama in 2015, was supposed to leave in february, but he just resigned. grain stander? the fake news is making a big deal about this nothing event. this follows james mattis resigning, the first resignation of a defense secretary in protest in our history. you support the shutdown. why? caller: i support the shutdown because we need something on the border. the main reason i call is you made a mistake where you said the border was 7000 miles long. according to national geographic , the mexico border is 1954. thank you for that

clarification. you are absolutely right. the point of the story i'm should have mentioned is that the $5 billion according to senator ted cruz would provide about 215 miles of border, half of which would be replacement walls for what is already there. , i go: one of the things to our local township meetings, and i'm amazed at the cost of public projects because of all the permitting and everything they have. stream, bridge over a and it was going to be $120,000. i would have built it for $2000. those numbers never cease to amaze me. i support the border with the idea that we have to have some kind of border. it is obvious that the people cs aseed a better life

theanswer -- see us as answer. whatever we do, they will try to find a way to get in. it is much nicer in this country than where they are, unfortunately. host: thank you for the call. appreciate it. let's go to david from cincinnati. good morning. caller: just want to mention your dad. i really admire him as a person and actor. one of my favorite all-time. host: thank you. well, but head as is not who you are talking about. a class guy, might be a relative, but not my dad. he is a terrific guy. i'm the subject, i have

always opposed shutdowns. i'm a fiscal conservative, and they cost a lot of money to start the government backed up again. it is a waste of money. caller talking about drugs, i hear this all the time about how somehow the wall is supposed to protect us from that. drugs come into this country in cars and trucks driven by american citizens. there is a movie out now called the mule. that shows out drugs come into the country. they are driven in. in, theseay they come drug cartels build tunnels, and they come in underneath. it wall would not protect us from that. walle want to bring up the

as stopping the drug problem in our country, and it is just false. host: thank you for the call. i appreciate it. another tweet from the president last night. he was busy all day tweeting. he said, if anybody but your favorite president donald trump announced after decimating isis we would bring our troops home from syria happy and healthy, that person would be the most popular person in america. with me, it's hard instead by the fake news media. crazy. a "war"ys he faces every day. is steve from california. you oppose the shutdown. caller: i think it is a farce rick by thisl t white house. he is ruining this country.

ng yearsbeen 240-somethi without a wall. he sells it to the midwest, or the middle america i should say. it is ridiculous. how do people stand the fact that he lies every single day he is in office? he is an absolute fool. we are foolish to follow him. that is all i have to say. host: thank you for the call. next is martin turning us from utah -- joining us from utah. the sun rises on a clear and crisp and chile christmas eve eve. caller: good morning, merry christmas, and happy new year. wall.ppose the i watched senator leahy yesterday. he has been serving since gerald ford, which is total bullcrap.

there should be turn limits on everyone. washe was concerned with the federal workers not getting paid, the congress people being stuck in congress trying to work this out and not able to give presents,ldren and all he could talk about was the illegal aliens, which he kept calling immigrants. will we need to do is build up a structure -- what we need to do is build up a structure to stop people flowing across illegally. host: thank you for the call. this is the cover story inside the new york times sunday trump's inquisitors. your times sunday magazine.

floor yesterday, chuck schumer with a status report on where his side of the aisle stands. [video clip] >> roughly 25% of the government is shut down because of one person, and one person alone. president trump. we arrived at this moment because president trump has been on a destructive two-week temper tantrum, demanding the american taxpayer pony up for an expensive and ineffective boardwalk that the president promised mexico would pay for. make no mistake, the trunk shut down is not about border security. all the proposals we made contain over $1 billion in new border security money, the same amount allocated last year by both parties, and even the present agreed to. the trump administration has barely even spent any of the border security money from last year. the trunk shut down isn't over border security.

it is because president trump is demanding billions of dollars for an expensive, ineffective wall that the majority of americans don't support. that is from senator chuck schumer, democratic leader. andou are in washington want to visit the national christmas tree, the area around the christmas tree is now closed because of the government shutdown. dorothy is joining us from cleveland, ohio. good morning. caller: hi. merry christmas. i agree with chuck schumer 100%. this wall or so-called wall, slacks, whatever it is he is trying to get $5 billion for his ridiculous. first of all, all these people that mexico ism going to pay for it. mexico is not going to pay for it. the taxpayers should not have to pay for.

we are in the 20th century. they want a 19th-century wall. we can do better on that order with technology sensors, drones, anything but a wall. a wall is not going to keep people out. what makes me upset about all this is we have an idiot in the white house, doesn't know what he is doing. the country is going to the dogs. he doesn't have a sense of direction. people that are quitting, they are quitting because they have got integrity. they are not going to sit here and see this country go to the dogs. i feel sorry for the people that are delayed because of this man. he is going to sit and call a

meeting with only his party yesterday. how can you stop the government from being shut down if you don't even talk to the opposite party? this doesn't make any sense. we are in a critical mode now. the stock market, everything is falling. every time he gets into a crunch, he wants to stop everybody else. elsents to stop everybody and put it on everybody else. this is his shutdown. host: thank you for the call. this is from the u.s. embassy in jakarta. the twitter feed has now been suspended. this twitter feed will not be updated regularly. please visit the state department for twitter updates. we mentioned that because of the tsunami that hit indonesia overnight. the death toll is now 222,

expected to go much higher. our next caller from michigan. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. for your patience with all of these callers. [laughter] host: i have been trying. thank you. caller: you are a better man than me. i support the shutdown. i think the biggest problem we have in washington is the there just up seemed to want to fight each other rather than listen to the will of the people. host: let me take your point, how do we get to a resolution? the president has made it clear he wants $5 billion for the wall. chuck schumer has said he will not get the money. there have been meetings back and forth between the vice president and house and senate leaders. at some point, there has to be a compromise. how do we get there?

i think everybody needs to put their ego at the door and go into the room and sit down and realize what is best for this great country of ours. you can go back and read history books. you can boggle yourself by looking at old films. if they would just get back to the roots and see what actually has to be done for the people, example, it is silly, but it would make sense. the house of representatives, they should be mandated to wash the old hollywood movie dave. our five senators need to watch -- our fine senators need to watch mr. smith goes to washington. they will see how far off they

are with this bickering. it is not what the people wanted. got electedump because america was sick and tired of the democrats. america was sick and tired of the republicans. you are never going to get anywhere until they put their egos aside and just do what is best. probably the lobbyists are the ones contributing to this stalemate we have. the last bill they did for justice was done without any lobbyists. they got everything done, both lobbyistsecause the were not involved. they did what was good for the country, the justice system at the time, the one that just passed. put what you want to side. host: thank you for the call. mark has this tweet.

bad idea shutting down the country. i think they should get together and stop the nazi tactics and secure the country. viewer saying, what is left of our democracy end trump, or will trump end what is left of our democracy? bracing for a lengthy shutdown. bob is next from texas. you oppose the shutdown. why? caller: yes, good morning, steve. can you hear me? host: we can. caller: thank you. first of all, it is a real pleasure to speak to you, steve. merry christmas to you all. my heart goes out to all the people in indonesia. i just want to make a couple points about the wall.

i oppose the wall. i oppose the president. these people that say he was elected by the people, and they want the wall, well, he did not get the popular vote, so that flyfly with me -- and don't with me. there are just as many people that don't want the wall. they need to get that in their head. i would like for c-span to please try to come up with a figure on what has already been spent down there on that border that evidently has not done any good at all because they keep trying. the cost of this wall is not going to be $5 billion. godody that thinks that, my , i've got a bridge i would like to sell them. et $100 billion will not even

do what they want to do. -- another of my concerns, i never hear about anybody talking about the wall location. actually, the border is in the middle of the river. where are they going to put the wall? what is it going to cost landowners? what is going to happen to that land that is on the other side of the wall if they include part of the united states? is mexico going to be able to claim that portion? are they going to be able to use it? those are things i like to let people think about. it is not as simple as building the wall. there are a lot of problems that are going to crop up.

thank you for letting me spout off. host: absolutely. that is what we are here for. thank you for your call. joe, of course, it is a complete reversal of policy. the old policy sucked and was the cause of misery at home and abroad. this news and world report with mattis-trump, the partnership collapses under its own weight. days after the president decided to withdraw all troops from syria without informing key members of congress or his own cabinet, including mattis. cnn reporting late thursday that will order- trump the withdrawal of some key forces in afghanistan. criticismndid

contrasted markedly with his own public face over 24 months in office. government shutdown, stock you say ising, looking like a laughingstock -- usa is looking like a laughingstock. good morning, abe. caller: good morning. they talk about drugs being pulled into this country. there are drugs in every country. the wall is not going to stop any drugs. the main point is that trump is in trouble.

he already told the american people he is a snake. we elected a snake. he has todl you -- told you he is a snake. this ship is going down, and he knows it. he knows he will not be there next term. he is doing everything possible to fill his own pocket. he only care about himself. when are the people going to get a grip? host: thank you. ehe national tree along th mall is now closed due to tehe government shutdown. this is a live view from the

mall. ronaldresident since reagan sworn in on that front of the u.s. capitol. indonesia killed in a tsunami. andrew, good morning. caller: i just wanted to ask, the wall is being offered to stop immigration from countries that have crumbled. has anyone in the state department offered to these countries to become territories of the u.s.? host: thanks for the call. pennsylvania.

caller: how's it going? good.i'm doing how are you? caller: good. you have to stop kicking the can down the road. that's what the democrats are doing. independent. china, we had these foreign-made goods in the stores. factories have to shut down. that's all i have to say. host: thanks for the call. the new york times reporting border patrol workers are being effected by this, working without pay. they include dhs, interior

department, justice, agriculture, hud, commerce, department,he state and nasa. shutdown.oppose the i don't want a wall either. i feel the solution of a wall has not been thought through. it is not planned. there's no preparation. there's no thought process. with aes you come up solution because you think it is obvious. you don't look at the other problems because of this problem of too many people coming over the border. e grandparents came from

urope. i am very glad they were able to get in. i think there is a much better way to handle the situation. fence act ofecure 2006. we still have something like 85 cases in litigation for eminent domain. people don't want to just give their land away. 2017dent trump put in his budget a request for 20 attorneys, anticipating all the litigation they have had. it has been 12 years, and we still have 85 cases in litigation. host: we will leave it there. bill bennett is going to be joining us in a few minutes. he is out with a new book, the true saint nicholas, why the

matters for christmas. alabama.ining us from welcome to the program. caller: hi. host: good morning. i.ller: this is tor host: i apologize. caller: how are you doing? host: i am great. merry christmas. caller: merry christmas. i don't approve of the shutdown. we have very rich people making rules for people that are just living life every day. i don't approve of that. i don't approve of the wall. yes, i want secure borders. my biggest thing to share this ,orning is evangelicals christian people, which i consider myself a christian, are following president trump when

anti-christian, the most anti-christian person i .ave ever encountered the way he talks to people, the way he acts, it is all not christian like. i know they want the judges. i know they don't want abortion, know, there is no telling how many abortions trump has had. i know i am off script. i call you all the time. i never get on. i am just excited. i will get off. i appreciate having you here and having people able to speak and say the things they feel. god is good. i am going to trust jesus in this time. general mattis is gone. it is scary. it is really scary. i am going to trust jesus.

host: i will leave it there. thank you for the call. we have to move on. carol joining us from ohio. good morning. caller: good morning. christmasvery merry to you. i guess technically i do support the shutdown. here is what i want to address. we talk a lot about where the money is going to come from. c-span ton requesting -- somebody from usaid host: to do what? to do what at usaid? caller: i have been requesting c-span from over three months on the internet and trying to call.

i did leave some notes, but apparently did not go anywhere. here are some figures. guatemala alone 215 million dollars of american taxes. $118 million off american taxes. got $259 million of hard-working american tax dollars. where do they go? host: thank you for the call. we will go to richard, texas. you will host the shutdown. why? caller: very sensible. you are using the wall just like my uncle in the 50's used the as he walkednta

the streets as a member of the kkk. it is simple. you have a wall that does not do anything. you are hiding behind it. who is supporting the wall? the people who are supporting the wall are the same people who told you in 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001 they would not provide security at the airports and killed 3000 people. the same people who killed americans on 9/11 are hollering about a border wall. you are supporting them, allowing them to do this. the news media is. not a single new station reminded the american people it was the republican congress that killed those 3000 people on 9/11 by withholding $40 cameras. host: richard from texas. from the new york times,

exasperated but resigned, weight and worry. leonard from miami. caller: i am an immigrant from cuba. i support the wall. i think your program should be a little bit more fair for the actual situation. look around the world. look what has happened in 40 years of this back and forth. democrats have health congress a majority -- health congress a held congress a majority of times, 22 years. helps.n't seem that it look at the rest of the world, what is happening in europe when you don't secure the walls or

the borders. look at what happened in israel. they stopped 95% of the killings on a daily basis. that bringviduals drugs. we get the opioid crisis. caring for the entire population because they just don't care. host: thank you for the call. we have to move on. our guest bill bennett. the headline from the washington post, shutdown to stretch past christmas. jamal khashoggi and the final months of that washington post contributor who was killed inside the turkish consulate by saudi officials. a look at the stock market at the start of the obama

administration, 9700, at the end , over 22,405. of 2018, the gainscalvert fromh carolina. caller: good morning. i live paycheck to paycheck. folks who is for the are not going to get a paycheck this christmas. they will eventually catch up. when you are not paying your bills on the time, fines and penalties accrue. who is going to pay for them. i live in the ninth congressional district. as of january 3, i will have no congressional representation. that is a concern. $22 trillion in

debt in this country. what's another $5 billion going to do to us? it will not secure the border. we know that. we have a real labor shortage in north carolina. anytime you can send us some workers, we would be greatly appreciated. host: we will turn to the christmas holiday season, the government shutdown, and our conversation with bill bennett. he has a new book, "the true saint nicholas: why the matters to christmas." some of the most important books of 2018. we begin with crystal fleming, on her book "how to be less stupid about race." you are watching "washington journal" and we are back in a moment. ♪

>> join washington journal for authors week, featuring live segments each morning with a new author. monday,m. eastern on warren cass. williams.uan dershowitzy, alan talks about his book "the case against impeaching trump." "squeezed: why our

families can't afford america." matters: how modern feminism lost touch with love and common sense." saturday, "the view from flyover country." sunday, "american overdose." join us for authors week on "washington journal." night on "the communicators," author byron reese talks about "the fourth age." the point we are at where we are creating new technologies that are of that same magnitude and will change the trajectory of the human race. those are artificial intelligence will be outsourced human thoughts, and robots will be outsourced human action.

when you build machines that think and act for us, what is next for us? communicators," monday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span2. "washington journal" continues. host: a live view of the u.s. capitol. the government is shut down. day 2 of the shutdown. joining us is bill bennett, former drugs are an cabinet secretary and the author of "the true saint nicholas: why it matters to christmas." thank you for being with us. first, this shutdown. why did it happen? guest: because of a disagreement within the president and chuck schumer and nancy pelosi. as nancy pelosi reminded the president and that famous oval office talk, article i says that

congress does the funding. the president made not a campaign promise, but the central campaign promise he would build the wall. they are at loggerheads and we will sue it happens. host: you are an expert on the federal government. $5 billion. how much of a wall? guest: about 240 miles. it is a continuation of what has already been done. i think it makes sense. this president, whatever one thinks of him, i have to admire him to keep his promises and away we have not seen before. host: the resignation of general mattis and the first defense secretary to resign in protest because he opposes the president's stance on syria? guest: i think he is a very good man. obviously he is an excellent general.

the president had great pride in the fact he was coming on. i think he is a sober and thoughtful guy. i think it hurts, but the president can make an excellent replacement. arkansas forn of doing excellent job. i was rereading some things early on in the administration. critics said they were too many generals. we were talking about general kelly and general flynn and general mattis. he was over-generaling the government. now there is one less general, but he is obviously not being praised for it. host: did you ever have private disagreements with ronald reagan or george h.w. bush? guest:. yes i presented it to them as a disagreement. i can tell you about one of them. it was ronald reagan over the situation involving judge

ginsburg. not ruth bader ginsburg, but the other ginsburg. there were some questions whether he should be named. i called the president. it was just people did not know quite what to do. it came out that judge ginsburg, a very good man that he is still on the court. he admitted to smoking marijuana while a law professor with students. smoking marijuana when you are young in the 1960's, one can perhaps waive your hand on that. as a law professor i thought it was a real problem. i called the white house and spoke to the chief of staff, howard baker. they carried the message forward. there were some other things there were disagreements on. i often was able to get right to the president to express it.

host: do you think this president accepts disagreements? guest: yes, no i think c starts with a presumption he is right. he is just more forward about it. i have spoken to the president on one or two occasions, raised questions and issues. yes, there is a lot of self-confidence in this president. again, he has very strong views on things. but this notion you could not talk to him with a different point of view, i don't think it is right. i am not a close advisor but i know people who do speak with him and they say he is open to ideas but begins with a strong presumption in favor of his own. host: bill bennett our guest is bill bennett. this is what number book? guest: five. host: why saint nicholas? west: i thought

needed to remember were saint nicholas came from. he was born in asia minor. his parents died when he was young. they left him some money. this unmanned took pity on a poor family. gave them small bags of gold through an open window at night. they felt into stockings. there we are. that's around the year 300. faithhe story of a man of who suffered for his faith. this was during the roman occupation, the roman dictatorship if you will. he was imprisoned, tortured. he ministered to others while tortured. he was adopted by lots of people. sailors on the sea but was responsible for calming storms. children love saint nicholas.

his fame travels all over the world. americarope, ultimately where he is discovered by a number of american notables, including washington irving. moore. -- clement moore. he gains a little late and becomes anglicized to santa claus. then he is finally discovered in the form was familiar to us by macy's and coca-cola. that is where the story ends, but it's a wonderful story of faith. host: let me share some excerpts from the book. by the end of the 16th century, he had been banished from religious life but he cannot be driven out of people's hearts and imaginations. he was much too beloved for that to happen.

when he lost his audit place in churches, he moved into homes where he had legions of fans, especially among children. he became a hero of the heart. by the mid-20th century, along route was complete. he had almost completely disappeared in the united states. in his place, santa claus had come to town. is a distinctlaus and distant relative of saint nicholas. you brought up the conflict. i hate to divide potential audiences, but he was thriving and then martin luther came along and said we don't like these icons, these stained-glass which thehese saints traditional catholics are worshiping and trying to. they smashed all that stuff. i thought -- they thought that was the end of nicholas. he retreated into homes, hearts and hearth.

host: you begin in lower manhattan at a greek orthodox church. guest: yes, that is right. there are many such churches around the country. one interesting thing i found is a legend about his bones. that there was a kind of oil coming out of his bones, manna that had healing powers. it went on the internet and it's still out there. you can buy a vial of a quarter of announce that is reputed to be the oil from his bones for only $2500. i don't recommend that. i only recommend the book. host: glen, good morning on the democrats line with secretary bill bennett. caller: i want to ask you a question.

-- whyd president trump was president trump elected? guest: the country was ready for a change, for a big change. a lot of people felt they were not being served. their interests were not being addressed. call.ded an answered there were a lot of people that disagree with barack obama on principle. sense thatgeneral washington was not being responsive to the needs of people. i think that is why he was elected. host: amy from georgia, democrats like. caller: good morning. i want to say that i remember mr. bennett from the 1980's. the war on drugs. it did a lot of damage in my community. people lost their fathers, brothers, some of them their

mothers. watching you today i was reminded of something i learned as a college student. is a place of bigotry, cruelty, greed, lack of compassion. it is far more costly then passion, empathy, and a hopeful view of our country. you are a representative of policies that put in place cruelty, bigotry. host: how so? guest: -- caller: i am looking at mr. bennett and thinking there is a straight line that can be drawn , the reagan policy to trump. guest: i don't agree at all with what amy said.

that the war on drugs destroyed many lives. in the 1980's this was our most successful effort historically against drugs. if you want to do a body count, crack cocaine, heroin, fentanyl. you will see the names of 45,000 to 50,000 people at the vietnam memorial. more people than that die every year from the current drug evidence -- epidemic. but we did was push back very hard on this drug issue. for the first time in a very long time we got the numbers down. the numbers went down by about 50%. the number of people using illegal drugs. we went after the supply which means the price went up. emergency room admissions were down. many people think they were too tough on drugs, but not

nearly as tough as the drugs were on the victims. i am proud of the work we did. there was a movie made called "traffic" which was a pretty good movie and accurate in some ways. i heard the guy who made the movie did it so he could send a message to me about how harsh this war was. there were harsh elements in this. we went after the bad guys hard. when we took office, there were leaders.or cartel i said we will get them and take them down. with the help of the colombian help ofnt and forceful the united states military, including delta force, we did take them down. we also did dramatic increases in counseling, education, and treatment. we pushed on all fronts and i'm proud of the work we did. we got the numbers down, which

needs to happen now by the way. host: looking at the legacy of george h.w. bush who passed away, there is this. in "the washington post" "the federal drug control budget was around $5 billion. when he left office it was over $12 billion. this was the sharpest escalation in the history of the drug war and locked the country into a strategy of punishment, deterrence and intolerance. it did little to alleviate addiction or help the flow of -- hault the flow of drugs to american shores. while we remember bush as a gentle soul, from them for his role in fermenting a drug war that harmed millions of citizens, particularly in communities of color." guest: wrong, ill-informed and ignorant. what are yousaid doing to address this problem in the inner cities?

that is the first lace we went. i want to 130 communities in that effort. we went the public housing and we heard the same story over and over. can you do something about this plague of drugs? i noticed counseling was popular mainly by women and children. most of the men who were hanging around public housing where they're not as husbands or caring fathers, but as predators. work indid some tough those communities but when i went to these communities the complaint was always the same. intellectuals were saying why don't we legalize drugs and make them more accessible? people in the communities were saying can you get this play off of our streets? can you stop people from selling these things to our children? it is a very contentious issue, but if you look at the body count, it went down during our time we were in charge of this

effort. i am proud of the work we did. host: our guest is bill bennett who served at the drugs are in the george h.w. bush and administration. virtues" came out when? guest: 1993. it got no advertising, no publicity and outsold. we could not find books. then it continued for quite a while. host: then you came on c-span and talked about it. guest: i sure did and my hair was a little different. host: justin from jasper, tennessee, republican line. caller: good morning. appreciate your sentiment of your book with saint nicholas. i believe the country could probably do better with some faith. i hope these people have some

faith and can enjoy their possible week off with her family. i do believe the drug war is a complete failure. it has incarcerated way too many people. hopefully the country is turning a corner. alcohol is legal. we legalize everything, treat the people that want treatment. natural selection. people are going to overdose and kill themselves and that is just ance. pre-despond it name your choice and open up the prisons. we have ruined way more lives locking people up for marijuana than anything. host: thank you for the call. people don't go to jail for any numbers of significance for smoking a joint. host: what you think about the

new criminal or foreign law? -- reform law? guest: i am concerned about people making a hard distinction between violent and nonviolent crimes, and making something like jug dealing a nonviolent crime. you may deal in cocaine or fentanyl and you may be a peaceful seller of it, but once against into the livestream -- bloodstream and communities it destroys. it is very violent. there are reasons there are a lot of people in prison. in almost all cases is because they are serious crimes. the result has been an increase in public safety that we have enjoyed for some 30 years. i think one should approach this cautiously. i agree with the president's instincts and ideas on this. there are reforms that need to occur, such as direct treatment in prison. the gentleman is wrong that it

is a failure. it was a success in the late 1980's. we shall see with this other epidemic coming from the opioid crisis and this new, horrible drug sentinel -- fentanyl. if we throw up our hands and say people are going to die, that is not a responsible government response. you don't let people die like that. host: is marijuana a gateway drug? guest: there is no question it is a gateway drug. says when the boat is half underwater, don't get out fire hoses. i know the general sentiment. i know the public sentiment. while you have this crisis of drugs and opioids and fentanyl, to be legalizing marijuana, a gateway drug, is crazy. more young people are in treatment for marijuana than all other drugs combined.

host: say that again. young people are in treatment for marijuana than all other drugs combined. i had another job. i was secretary of education. marijuana, clinically, beyond doubt, produces the capability for focus, attention and memory. the you think those are important for you a young person going to school? i think so. there is a professor of medicine and psychiatry at northwestern university. he said if i can design something in a laboratory to inhibit children's intellectual growth, i would design marijuana. host: it is now legal in many parts of the country. guest: i have been the colorado a number of times. years theyn 5, 6, 7 will want to put the genie back in the bottle. host: "there is one essential

truth in the stories of nicholas goodness ofaus, the the gift offered with no expectation of anything return. despite secularization and commercialization, santa claus is a manifestation of nicholas's others. to give to --guest: these bags falling into stockings or shoes. he did this in the middle of the night because he wanted to remain anonymous. the third night the father was waiting and captured him and tackled him and saw it was nicholas. the irony is the guy who wanted mademain anonymous becomes the world's most famous gift giver. think about that when you're writing a little card tomorrow or the next day. maybe just don't sign it. just give the gift. how many of us do that? we want to get credit.

host: diane in tennessee with bill bennett. good morning. 1980's i remember in the when president reagan was there saying just say no to drugs. i remember our community. drugs it our community in the 1980's. they had killing stand here. drug gangs were fighting against each other. my brother was in the military. if you want to stop these drugs, check the military, check those ships. my brother is dead and gone. the guy from agent orange. that stuff is coming through here with the rich and powerful people in the military. evil people in our government. guest: interesting. and aspect i did not mention was

the military. i talked to colin powell about this. the military addressed the issue very effectively. they had a zero-tolerance policy, which is something we recommended for schools when i was secretary of education and director of drug policy. the military led the way on this. the military has an important role in this. i remember when i first got the job, u.s. about disagreements with the president. it was disagreements with other cabinet ministers. i wanted to go see each cabinet member, particularly the secretary of defense, and enlist their help. eyes, their years in their brains to see everything. i was getting a little resistance. host: dick cheney guest: yes, good for you. he was respectful and pleasant but said this is not my war. this is not the pentagon's thing. i said i don't want to be, i

just need your intelligence capabilities. they were a little reluctant. i called the president and i said i have to see these guys. you have got to get me in there. he told the 20th of job. if you ever have difficulties, give me a call and i will straighten it out. he did. i called him on a couple of occasions. i remember another call. george walker bush called me on my birthday and said i'm sorry , but i was just a covenant house in new york. president, said, mr. i'm getting out in a few months and i look forward to having a couple of years. i will be dead by 25. -- i will be dead be drug-free. why should a young man's horizons be limited by 25?

he said the streets, the drugs, they will get me. i will live past 25. i said this is what happens. the horizons in people's mind when they get into this disastrous situation. i remember how touched he was by it and he always supported me and never thing i asked for. louisiana. river, caller: how are you, mr. bennett? and the host. i appreciate your service, sir. i am a former drug addict. i started with marijuana. you are well educated in that area because i did a study when i was a college -- when i went to college. with a they call that? the coffee shops where you can get marijuana. the illiteracy rate went up 20% in five years. ner,s a marijuana begin

it led me to do other drugs. i was a drug addict for 30 years. i am up in age now. better in ways i see the drug addiction in this country. i lost a lot of friends to addictions. i lost an ex that i have a daughter from from a heroin overdose. the night at donald trump was elected. it is a stepping stone. work.eciate your i am thankful every morning i wake up that we have a president, donald trump, that has common sense. he is a president that has to make tough love decisions and i appreciate your service.

very minduana is a altering drug. guess he got me off of it? jesus christ. guest: faith-based communities often work on this effectively. if you polled the general public, most of the general public has not had this problem. if you pull people who had drug problems, they will tell you for that of doubt it is how it starts for a lot of people. not everyone who smokes marijuana moves on other drugs. we know that. but almost everyone, most people move on to other drugs started with marijuana. that is the case. i was talking to lawrence kudlow the other day, who still goes to meetings. these are meetings like alcoholics anonymous. he is very candid and open about it.

he says the young people come and almost all of them have started with marijuana. interesting to think larry kudlow, national economic council, still goes on a weekly or monthly basis. host: we did an interview with him and he talks about his addiction to drugs and alcohol and how he was able to recover. the passing of george h.w. bush. son said he was the most influential one term president in history. too,: i said i thought so and i got an angry letter about john quincy adams. "america'story book, last best hope." maybe not as consequential, that was john adams. but you can make a case for georgia walker bush in terms of foreign policy.

he was a pro, an expert, a great mentor. if i have a minute for a quick story, we were doing a drug event in houston. a gentleman came on the bus. secret service approved it. he apparently had been coaching girls softball in the same league where george herbert walker bush had coached. the said to the president, george, you have done really well. you have yourself a good job, president. this guy's name was george too. that is what i wanted to see you. i was wondering if you could spare me a few bucks. i had started spinning. the president of the united states that i had never seen this. pulls off $400.

he said, thank you very much. things have not turned out as well for me as you and i really appreciate it. mr. president, does this happen a lot? you have to carry a lot of cash. it's a simple story. the effortlessness of it, the natural grace, the decency. i thought maybe i should carry more cash. host: bill bennett. the book is called ""the true saint nicholas: why he matters to christmas." merry christmas to you. come by anytime. we appreciate it. would begin a series this week with leading authors. we begin the series with crystal fleming. "how to be less stupid about race." later, olivia nuzzi will join us from new york magazine. you're watching " washington

journal" on this sunday morning. we are back in a moment. ♪ >> this week, joined "washington journal" for authors week featuring segments with each -- each morning with a new author. cass., warren tuesday, juan williams. wednesday, alan dershowitz talks about his book, "the case against impeaching trump." z withay, alyssa quart "squeezed." friday, mona charrin. kensior withah

"the view from flyover country." sunday, "american overdose." join us each morning this week on washington journal. "q&a,"ght on olman jenkins talks about his war and politics during the trump era. >> he wants to be the center of attention. the way he looks at people, everyone is either a friend or an enemy. he holds no grudges. i think his ideas -- the america first thing is an idea he holds dear. that our country has been shortchanged in its dealings with the rest of the world and that is reflected in trade policy and immigration policy. the things in the minds of many of his supporters have hurt them at their economic prospects.

i think that is a sincere set of beliefs on his part. washington journal continues. host: this christmas week we will begin a series of leading authors. joining us is olivia nuzzi to begin our series. "how to be less stupid about race." thank you for being with us. guest: good morning. thanks for having me. host: "hundreds of years after establishing a nation of colonial genocide, people are kind of, sort of, maybe possibly waking up to the sad reality are racial politics are still garbage. how can the same country that voted for a black president and of electing a racist who can grab the string together to coherent sentences? -- two coherent sentences?"

let's begin on that point. guest: one of the motivations for the book certainly was the 2016 election. i write about my own personal journey in the book. not just learning about racism as a scholar and earlier as a student, but also my politics. i want to be clear. we will be taking calls from people across the political spectrum. one of the things i don't do in this book is pretended racism is something we should treat and a partisan manner. it is just a problem on the right. that is absolutely not the case. that is one of the major fallacies i address. what i tried to do is explain systemic racism is a profound problem across the political spectrum. that includes the left and includes the democratic party. that is something i really came

to see clearly during obama's presidency. lays out from a sociological perspective and also historical perspective what it means to really recognize our entire nation was built on white supremacy and built, as you just read in the book, colonial genocide. that racial realism, that realism about the centrality of white supremacy our politics and culture and society seems to have not gotten the attention it deserves, particularly over the last couple of decades in this era many people call the post-civil rights era. we can have a conversation about that. in many ways we are not post-civil rights. people of color are still fighting for civil rights and human rights. that is the background of the

book. 2016 was a moment where i realized there was this resurgence of overt white nationalism, but also a tolerance of it. i am someone who is some ways politically pessimistic. even i did not realize how bad the situation is. the book came from me thinking what am ir 2016, going to do to try to bring the knowledge that i have acquired about this subject of racism to the broader public? host: "we are surrounded and at times astounded by the ignorant and dangerous ideas people express about this thing called race. why are so many people so incredibly confused and misinformed about race? it is the white supremacy, stupid." things i dof the

from the title of the book is emphasize what i call racial stupidity. other people talk about it in terms of racial ignorance. one of the main ideas of the book is that growing up in a racist society, being socialized in a racist society, exposes all of us to racial ignorance and racial stupidity. to be clear, one of the things i explained is we have the sociological research to back this up. white americans tend to be more racially ignorant that people of color for a simple reason. means young racism have a greater chance of having knowledge about what racism is and how it works. i say a greater chance because this is probabilistic. there is no guarantee as a

person of color you will have vast knowledge about race and racism. only look at people like kanye west to 90 can be black or person of color in the society and still be incredibly racially ignorant. i'm an afghan american woman and i explained how i had to learn -- african-american woman and explain how i header learn about racism. i got my phd from one of the most well-recognized and revered universities in the world, harvard university. i specialized in the study of race and racism. yet i realized after finishing my degree that there was so much knowledge that we were not taught, even in one of the world's most renowned universities. and in a department of sociology at harvard, for understandable he good reasons, well respected

and widely respected. i have talked about this. i was invited to harvard recently to address some of these issues. is the one of your 50th debois'ary of w.e.b. birth. the is one of the most widely respected trailblazers on the study of race and racism. was not required reading for students specializing in the study of race and the department of sociology at harvard. degree and ihed my began to try to fill the gap in my knowledge and tried to figure out why i was not satisfied with my education, one of the things i did was to learn from critical race theory, and active and lively field of knowledge and scholarship about race and

racism that is not really integrated way it should be in enough mainstream sociology. then i began to understand how people have been excluded, even from people who specialize in the study of race and racism. racial ignorance is a problem and an epidemic throughout society. isake a clear and the book an issue and problem for scholars of race and racism. i talk about and write about my own journey, which is ongoing. i continue to learn about these issues on a daily basis. host: our guest is crystal fleming. you write about this very issue. one of the best reasons to listen to black women is because doing so will better equip you to understanding oppression and what we can do to challenge it. racially ignorant black women exist. i used to be one of them."

chico, california. our author is from new york. caller: hello. are you hearing me or not? host: sure can. caller: i looked at a review on amazon of your book. looks to meetit you specialize in bashing white males more than anything else. did you know white males created the modern world? you have those white gene flowing in your body so you need to share your white guilt. steve, can you repeat the name of the color. host: wanda. guest: there is so much racial stupidity and what you just said we can unpack. you said you read a review on amazon. i would encourage you to read not just my book but probably a whole stack of books you need to find in the library. one of the things you need to iserstand is that my book

not about bashing white men. one of the things people don't really understand, particularly the racially ignorant is opposing white supremacy is not the same thing as bashing white people. you talk about white men. you would probably be surprised to find out one of the things i explained the book is how i learned about systemic racism from a white man. was a professor at wellesley college. dr. silver was one of the first teachers i had in my education that actually explained what systemic oppression was. not just racism, although that is one of the things we learned about in his introduction to sociology course, but also class oppression. we learned about these issues from a sociological perspective. i write about that because many people like you are particularly

racially ignorant. is we have always had in this country a minority who are anti-racists. these are people who understand what systemic racism is, they oppose white supremacy, and i am in solidarity with whatever the racial ethnic background who oppose systemic racism. that is the first thing i would say. the second part of what you said -- i think he said i have quite genes flowing through my veins and i should share in white guilt. there is so much in what you said that is offensive and quite repulsive. i will address one thing. the fact of the matter is, and i don't know how you identify, but most people would look at someone who is african-american and even though we might be what scholars call multigenerational

and they will still discriminate against us because of the way white people, people who have come to define themselves as white and that's another conversation we can talk about, but whiteness itself is a made-up category that is based on a modern fiction. people who call themselves white discriminate against people who look like me. to suggest that because i have ancestry or other african-americans of ancestry that includes europeans is a store nearly ignorant because part of this country's racial history around interracial mixing is the history of interracial and white supremacist rape. that was during the slave trade and the era of slavery. white men systematically raped

african women they insulate. sometimes girls they enslaved. this was a large reason why many african-americans have mixed ancestry. for you to distort that history suggests the descendents of those raped slaves should share in the guilt for crimes committed against their ancestors and share in the guilt for the ongoing crime of discrimination and systemic racism is absurd. that is how i would reply to that. i would encourage you to address your racial ignorance and read a lot of books. not just mine. you can start with mine but i would encourage you to read the note where i extensively point the reader to scholarship, both historical, sociological and others on these issues. host: you are in your masters and doctorate from harvard. her previous book was " resurrecting slavery: racial

legacies and white supremacy in france." good morning. just to give you a little background. i am 67 years old. i was raised in south louisiana. my extended family was overtly racist to say the least. 1969 andthe navy in was in memphis, tennessee. there was a lot of racial tension in the military at that time. i attended a race relations seminar and i ended up marrying the facilitator of that seminar. i came a long way in my own issues with race. i still have difficulty talking about it. i read a number of books. word."entitled "the n does your book address -- i

still have a lingering issue with african-americans. there seems to be a denial of some of the cultural issues within the black community. i was wondering if your book addresses those issues. host: thank you for the call. guest: thank you for your question. one of the things he said was even though you married and antiracist facilitator -- an antiracist facilitator and have a thinking about these issues you sometimes feel uncomfortable or struggle with it in some way. i want to knowledge that is very typical. finishedg as having your antiracist work. i think the question makes that clear the kiss you were not finished with your work. let me explain what i mean. when people start to ask about --ican-american culture and

maybe there is denial around some of the things you see in black culture. you need to take a step back and understand the historical and social context in which you are framing just that question. you first have to book knowledge that for the last several , theries this country united states has built a culture of not just white supremacy, for anti-blackness. the idea is something wrong with black people is american as apple pie. it has been used ideologically to justify what is wrong with white supremacy. that is everything is wrong with white supremacy. everything is wrong with dehumanizing other human beings on the basis of anything, much less made a pathology of race. everything is wrong with building the culture that not

just justifies racial oppression but celebrates it and makes it patriotic to celebrate white male dominance over other people. everything is wrong but that. there has never been a moment in this country's history where the has been agreement on the fact that is wrong. it is morally wrong. it is repugnant and should be an offense to everyone who cares about human rights and justice. the other part of it is that the ideology of anti-blackness, which then plays out in the form of discrimination, centuries of ongoing discrimination, centuries of ongoing disparities, as well as people who think they are well-meaning and antiracist still wonder what is wrong with black people. when i was in college -- i don't recount this in the book but i share it with people who talk about the book with me. asked was in college i

the question similar to yours. i had not yet begun my study of race and racism. i was very ignorant. i wrote one of my professors in college and i asked -- it was a black studies professor. black people are struggling around the world. is there something wrong with black culture? this professor, who understood right away that might question was coming from a place of profound ignorance and internalized oppression, their first response was you need to take classes, my class, classes on the subject. once i began to take that advice and study the subject and learn about the mechanisms of ness and white

supremacy that operating destructionough the this many societies and feeling of resources from africa, when i learned about the consequences of the transatlantic slave trade, when i learned about what it meant to build a society that celebrates destroying black families in black culture, and then flips the script and asks what is wrong with black people, it became clear that there is nothing wrong with black people. this is one of the basic -- it sounds basic but it is not widely enough understood. this is one of the basic insight -- if you are an antiracist, you need to understand is nothing wrong with

black people. there are people who study sociology of culture and cultural racism and the cultural dynamics and aspects of racism who have unfortunately, even in my field of sociology, mythologized black culture by saying there is something wrong with it. if we just fix black culture in a certain way, apparently racism will disappear. the fact of the matter is that as long as you have a system that is built on and perpetuates white supremacy and anti-blackness and discrimination, there is no way to adjust black culture that will get rid of white supremacist racism. white supremacist racism does not only reward people who take on what is considered the dominant culture and punish people who deviate from that.

in fact what happens is through systemic racism, racist policies, implicit bias in which you don't even realize you were making negative associations between racial minorities and your own stereotypes, that all of these things combined such that discrimination happens in a split second. you don't know the cultural practices or values of the people you are discriminating against when you have implicit bias. studies have shown that merely rimesg a black image p people to discriminate against those people. that is in the absence of knowing anything about their culture. answer, thended first thing i would remind you is at that the question of what

is wrong with black people is what this country was built on. when you can be clear about that. that is an element of white supremacist culture they need to be challenged. host: a lot of people want to talk to you with their questions. they can also check out your work on your website at crystalfleming.com. "how to be less stupid about race." eugene is joining us from maryland. caller: good morning, dr. fleming. i am so proud of you. questions, id my want to issue these myself to you. senior, eugene williams a gentleman who was able to get teams to sing and play the knee group -- negor national anthem. just google "list every voice

and sing." beyonce sang "list every voice and sing" recently and got great reviews. old 77 euros educator in an article with beyonce. in anyear-old educator article with beyonce. do you know the words to "lift every voice and sing"? guest: the want me to answer that? caller: let me ask all of them. do you know the words to "lift every voice and sing

i believe racism for many of us and america begins with jesus. jesus. the white jesus. people see him, lacks and -- black and white, as a white person. those two questions. would you answer them? host: we will get a response. guest: thank you for your questions. i will start with a question about religion. you are absolutely right. religion, not just in this country but we will focus on the united states, religion is tightly connected to the maintenance of white supremacy, and for a very simple reason. those europeans and their descendents who came to this lands, and still native dispossessed indigenous people, -- kidnapped africans they enslaved and exploitative labor.

one of the things they did was to draw on religion and their religion, christianity, to justify the religion, christiano justify the dehumanization of people they said who were racially inferior, so , the people who are already in church now and will be going to church later today and who may not know enough about the history of the use of christianity to justify racial oppression in this country. again, i want to be clear, christianity is not the only religion that has been used in this way, but it is central to the way racism operates in the united states. there was a study, i think from anduniversity of virginia, if you google the study, you see the image, if you do not know the context, they have a black

and white composite image, you might think "is this a serial killer?" in fact, it is not, it is what isy think god looks like, it a smiling white man, a young white man, and this is not 1918, this is 2018. millions of people still believe that god, first of all, has a race, and that god happens to like a white man. if you think about how that shapes everything from police encounters, to decisions to who gets a loan or does not get a loan, who gets hired or does not get hired for a job. work with groundbreaking and showing sort of how white supremacist racism shifts an

array of discriminatory decisions. one of the things her work showed is white men with a criminal record get called back for job opportunities at a higher rate than african-american men without a criminal record. understand this dynamic without looking at how religion and representing god or hass as a white man contributed to this culture of racism that we are all living with. thank you for telling me about your role in getting the negro league complete throughout the nation, these different sporting events. knowe to confess, i do not all the words, but i will look up the words to "lift

every voice and sing." i know certain words command i had to leave the rest. thank you for your question. host: another half hour with our guest, crystal fleming. she writes "people ask why i now hate the "new york times." the "new york times" is systemic systematic racism. it is like most other newspapers, only more egregious and harmful given its teflon reputation and global influence." why? racismhow systemic distorts what we see and what we read in the news in mainstream media.

i was a conventional consumer 6,enues until maybe 5, seven years ago, when i started ofhave a more critical view these issues, and i was really uphold once i started to pay attention to the dynamics of white supremacy and anti-correctness, to see how many of the -- anti-blackness, see how many papers i wrote up revering, from "the new york hows," to the "new yorker," they also perpetuate racist stereotypes, and part of the that news men overwhelmingly white and disproportionately white male, in particular, so we see marginalizing people of color, decision-making

and the newsrooms, so as far as goes, andork times" again it is a publication that many people see as liberal and presents itself as antiracist of does present the work antiracist callers, but the problem is papers like the "new york times" often take a both sides approach, so they will have profiles of nazis and neo-nazis that sort of normalize their perspective, presented at as the other issue alongside columns like people who are legitimately raises for muscle racist, sodes -- this both sides approach is something i critique. the "new york times" also

essentially published ap strength of rise of hitler's that the effect basically saying "don't worry about him," the "new york times" condemned martin luther king jr. for his to vietnam, and systemic racism here at home as well as poverty, the "new york times" condemned him, so of course i want to be clear there journalists and writers, many of my i do respect, who do publish in the "new york times." i would like to see the "new york times" stopped publishing a white supremacist in a way that normalizes them. that is the problem that i would like to see addressed. host: we will go to richard in albuquerque, new mexico. good morning.

caller: good morning. first of all, i would really like to say to you that you were not kidnapped or the blacks were beginning,ed in the they were slaves to the hunters and masters in a. -- in africa. put them into slavery. when the portuguese came over and happened to go through the oriental, they stopped by there, and it was the african masters who sold into slavery there own black people. host: crystal fleming, your response. guest: yes, thank you for your question. two things about what you said. percival, i am glad that you mention the portuguese, because the portuguese were the first europeans to begin the transatlantic slave trade.

they were one of the first actors involved in establishing the transatlantic slave trade. the issue of whether africans were kidnapped and brought to the united states and enslaved, there is no question about that. that is a historical fact. the issue, though, of the existence of slavery in africa, as well as in europe and around the world, is also a historical fact. so to be clear, and i encourage you to read my book, and also read the books that i cite, but to the clear, white supremacist racism that came out of transatlantic slave trade and colonialism did not invent slavery. slavery was and has been a problem, and i find it a little strange that you focus on

slavery and assess and africans enslaving each other, if you have nothing to say about europeans enslaving each other, which they have done for longer than they actually enslaved africans and their descendents. so the history of slavery itself is quite vast. i would point you to the work of orlando patterson. orlando patterson is a sociologist at harvard with whom i work. of somee my criticisms of his work, but he is one of the experts on the history and sociology of slavery, so i would just encourage you to deepen your knowledge of the subject, because there seem to be some gaps. host: this is sheldon in louisiana. you are on the line with crystal fleming. good morning. caller: i want to ask her opinion on affirmative action. is it a good thing?

what is her position on it? inause it has been attacked , uh, schools in terms of college, in terms of schools and situations like that , that black people or people of color might qualify. host: thank you. we will get a response. guest: thank you. great question. as you may know, affirmative action is being limited. there is -- litigated. there is an important case right now at harvard university, which will have the important implications. affirmative action has been under attack since its inception.

one of the things i would mention is the work of iraq cap nelson, whora kat wrote a book called "what affirmative action was white." take a look back at what is white supremacy, white supremacy has been a system of todouts from white people other white people. that is what it is. fromally everything handing out land to other white people and excluding native americans from their own land as well as people of color, african-americans in particular, outing out land to handing salaries,t higher even for people who technically have the same job, this is what discrimination does, this is what racial dissemination does. -- racial discrimination does.

if we switch from racism to sexism, what is patriarchy? what is sexism? that is what discrimination doe, it discriminates against one group and favors another group. with affirmative action, the number one beneficiaries of affirmative action have not been african-americans, have not been native americans, have not been people of color, in fact, it has been white women. white women have been the number one beneficiaries of affirmative action. one of the things of the things that means is white women, like other women, tend to marry men of their own ethnic or racial identity comes anyway, affirmative action has also continued to benefit white men, because they're white whites benefit from it, so their families then also benefit from affirmative action.

so one of the things we have not seen in this country is a recognition of who has really benefited from government handouts throughout history. it has been disproportionately white americans. and until you had a historical, political, sociological clarity, this conversation about affirmative action to address racism is going to be fundamentally confused. host: from florida, janet, you are next. good morning. caller: good morning. ms.uld like to ask her, um, what shefirst of all, thinks about interracial marriages. interracial marriages in my family, and i have aredchildren that interracial, and i give them my heart. i love them just as much as i love my white grandchildren.

i would like to know what she thinks about that, because i bet she does not like that. understand -- she is very well educated, um, and i harvardso like to know is a great university, they are wonderful, but i woul and i am y glad she got an education from them, but i would like to know how she got into wellesley, first of all. up, she seemsang to perpetrate, not hatred, but things not getting better. host: let me jump in, because a lot of people want to weigh in as well. first, on interracial marriage. guest: thank you, janet.

your first question on interracial marriage, it sounds like you assumed you do not think i like it, again, that shows your ignorance and the prejudices that you have based on not having knowledge. i would recommend that you read my book, is there is actually a hold chapter on interracial love, and i talk about the scholarship on interracial marriage and interracial mixture, which i encourage you to read, which clearly you have not. one of the things i learned from that research looks at not just the united states but also latin america and other countries where interracial marriage and prevalent,more colorfu one of the things that we learned from that research is that interracial relationships are not enough to end racism. in fact, we have seen the use of interracial mixture to produce

white supremacy. in latin america, there is a historical tradition of "whitening," in which they attempted to improve the inferior byonsider mixing, that they would improve and move up the scale of civilization. i hope that is clear to you that that is a deeply racist and it alsoe action, but shows you that just mixing together is not necessarily antiracist. i would encourage people -- one of the things i talk about in that chapter is i encourage people to think about things in terms of gender and sexism. very few people believe, as far as i know, that the way to end sexism is just for people, men and women to have sex with each other and love each other, like

that will end patriarchy. that does not make any sense. a letter people who do, particularly whites who have married in racially or people who have color in their family, sometimes they perpetuate the means they are antiracist, and that is not enough. the other thing i do in that chapter is i talk about my own relationship. i am in an interracial know you are and i probably surprise because of your own racist assumptions, but that is something i address as well. we do not need to have just interracial love in interracial marriage, we need to have antiracist love and antiracist marriage in friendship. that kind of anti-racist perspective does not look like what you are talking about, which is denying the existence of racism, even when we have mixture. your other question -- inference that race

was a factor in your admission into either wellesley or harvard. guest: it goes back to the prior caller, right, asking about affirmative action. one of the things about our racist society is that people will often look at someone like well,black woman, and say how did you get into such a procedure's university? at whitedo not look men and say well how did you get into harvard, how did you get into an ivy league university, and we should ask that question, because the how did you get into question, if we ask it of white people, which makes us have to confront what racism and sexism and classism has done to distort our country, we do not live in a meritocracy, right. mythpeople still have the that if you just work hard, you will succeed, and everybody is on an equal playing field. that is not true.

we know that women get discriminated against, which means men are being favored and privileged. we know people are color are being discriminated against, which means whites are being favored systematically. people who are disabled are discriminated against. people who are able-bodied are favored. we know that the poor and working-class artist terminated against and that elites are -- are discriminated against, and that the elites are privileged. the fact that their legacy of students, their parents, their crib her or family member went there, so we do not ask that in,tion of how did they get fro it enforces discrimination, and i think we should. host: we welcome you on potus channel 124 and also on the bbc

parliament channel. hn is joining us in new york. ahn.r: that is it sounds like a great book. author.a well spoken landlord of a relatively small city, and i see systematic racism, and i can see what is happening in the families to my rent. who need help are not getting it in housing, and nobody is talking about it. housing is -- they find ways -- the government finds ways not to help the poor with their housing payments. i can't tell you how many times

i have been denied payment after somebody has already moved in because people who are on dss cannot make an appointment or they do not do some kind of paperwork, and may just find ways to cut them off, and then they end up being evicted. now, i work with people, but a lot of times, i imagine they would be evicted by other landlords. their kids have to change schools. f someone does not have stable housing and their kids are always changing schools, what kind of chance does that give them for helping them improve their life? i think it has been a sad situation since the 2016 election. it is like a backlash to having a black president. i feel really sad about our

country and how many people are racist, and they don't even know it. host: let me stop you there. we will get a response. thank you for the call. guest: thank you so much for your call and for sharing your perspective. as a landlord, you see these issues upfront. one of the things that is important about what you stated the linkou recognize between systemic racism and class suppression. problems ofreat systemic racism is it prevents working-class people, or people across-- poor people differences to come together and see that they have a common struggle against class suppression.

and you are absolutely right that this country finds ways to not help working-class people and poor people who are struggling, whether it is with rent or simply having access to quality health care or with having access to quality education, and this is, you know, you are in the front line for that, and so i have nothing but agreement. i would mention, you mentioned the issue with convictions, a sociologist named matthew desmond has risen a book called "evicted," which examines these issues. host: the next call is william from nevada, democrats line. abbeville, new york. go ahead, william. caller: yes, good morning. is there a difference between a black man with a conservative political viewpoint and an uncle tom? i am not being frivolous. i am confused by that.

host: thank you, william. guest: [laughs] thank you, william. i am laughing because there is a part of my book, there is a chapter called "racial stupidity in the obama era, and it comes before a tractor on trump called -- a chapter on trump called usemp country," and people tom, as a term for uncle and he is not a conservative. well, some people debate that. a lot of daylight sometimes between the corporate democratic party and republicans on a number of issues. but having said that, is there a difference of being black and conservative and uncle tom? yes, i think there is, i think of an uncle tom as a black person who betrays

african-americans and throws them under the bus and participates with maintaining some aspect of white supremacy. when i think of comments like kanye west, who essentially blamed enslaved african-americans for being that is what i, associate with being an uncle tom. when i think of some of the views i had before i began to seriously study issues of race and racism, like that question i had in college -- what is wrong with black people? that is an uncle tom question. internalized suppression, one way of being an uncle tom, you are an african-american who is internally suppressed. when i think of president obama throwing his pastor under the s, reverend wright, honoring the confederacy, which is something other presidents before him did, a president who

went into black churches, black tomunities, talked down black people, patronized african-americans, and really that white the myth supremacy and in a long time ago toi would not go so far as say obama embraced post-racialism, but he did not at any point and still does not come even as an ex-president, he still has not overly challenge or even acknowledge the ongoing existence of white supremacy in this country. i think being an uncle tom, being internally suppressed is something that spans the political spectrum. excerpts of the of your book "no one is going to be able to explain to you in a should bewhat you .ble to do to confront racism

we are dealing with collective problems and institutionalize inequality is. when he to become more comfortable telling unflattering truths about our society." host: mary. caller: if we are still racist -- and if we are so racist, how many people leave it, seeking asylum elsewhere? guest: thank you for your question. my understanding of your question is if it is such a racist country, why do people try to come here? that yousuggestion is read about geopolitics, and that means actually reading about what is happening in other countries in the world and how american policy shapes that. one of the things that have happened, particularly throughout latin america and south america is the systematic obstruction of economies, and

we're seeing migrants across the violence,d to escape trying to escape struggling , and that our country has played a role in producing those problems. so people are desperate, in many that, to leave situations our country and other countries have helped create and perpetuate. partere is a geopolitical of the issue that maybe you're not knowledgeable about. in terms of asylum, in fact, one of the things i think of is a project that you have not heard genocide,recharge which was an effort of youth in the u.n., go to geneva, there was a whole

andem of police abuse on for that went t decades, african-americans literally being tortured and giving false confessions. people of color went to the u.n. -- not asylum, but to seek recognition for the civil rights abuses that have been happening in our country. and there has been also a movement, it back to africa movement, which you may have heard of. other efforts to leave the united states and go elsewhere. but again, once you take on the geopolitical or limbs, you will understand that our country has really devastated many african societies and countries, whether the economy, resources, and otherwise, we have made it

difficult -- i say "we," but i really mean this country's leadership has made it difficult for african-americans, in particular, to go somewhere. where are we going to go where our country has not and is not still in located in devastating those economies? we can, and some people do, as a tradition of leaving this country. i talked about w.e.b. dubois earlier in this hour. he left. he is buried in ghana. for many reasons, but he saw the limitations around this country, issues, not just of race but class and politics more generally. but there are also people who say you know what, this is my country, my ancestors built this country, whether you like it or not, and we are part of addressing the racism and the class suppression and other forms of domination that are happening. where then people ask

ways of premises can go, i do not see a lot of people asking them to leave or whether they should leave the country and maybe that is the question you should ask instead of why don't the racists and neo-nazis leave. host: the book, "how to be less stupid about race," joining us from new york, author and professor crystal flattening, thank you for being with us -- crystal fleming, thank you for being with us. guest: thank you for having me. tost: washington waking up another shutdown. we will get the perspective of olivia nuzzi, who will be joining us to discuss the shutdown. you are watching "washington journal" on this sunday, december 23. we are back in a moment. ♪

>> monday night on "the communicators," author byron reese talks about his book, "the fourth age," about artificial intelligence and robots. we are creating technologies that are of the same magnitude and will change the trajectory of the human race and artificial intelligence whereby we will see some action, and the interesting question is when you build machines tha think and act for us, what is next for us? what do we do? >> watch "the communicators," monday night at 8:00 p.m. eastern on seized and2. -- on c-span2. >> this week, join "washington journal" for authors week featuring live one-hour segments

each morning with a new author, beginning at 8:30 a.m. eastern cain camp.hor or in -- oren cass. tuesday, author one williams on "what the hell do you have to lose," wednesday, alan dershowitz with "the case against impeaching drunk uncle quart withlissa enqueeze, friday, mona char "sex matters," and on saturday, sarah kendzior with "the view from flyover country." >> "washington journal" continues. host: a live view of the u.s.

capitol. the partial shutdown continues, day two, affecting an estimated 800,000 federal workers. joining us at the table is olivia nuzzi, a washington correspondent for "new york magazine." thank you for joining us. guest: thank you for having me. host: i want to get more and your piece about the outgoing chief of staff john kelly. "johnite the following -- kelly --

host: explain. after the first chief of he then turned, to be a supervisor, really. who were close advisers to the president, like a ivanka trump, jared kushner, felt like they needed someone would bedvise, and he able to instill a sense of order, get rid of the chaos, stop the leak in, giving way to the sense of chaos and paranoia. look backhink you can a couple months from now and say he has been successful.

there are too many people for their to be powerful entries about. think a couple of the chaotic news cycles, a couple of the stories circle around him, and you have to wonder about mick mulvaney. why would anyone take this job? host: he appeared on nbc this morning, telling jonathan karl chief of staff daley white house staff, he is not going to change the president. guest: right. there is an old saying from the campaign folks "let trump be tru mp," that is the way to manage keep him is the way to happy. people who abide by vacuu that survived longer. at the same time, i do not think it will protect mick mulvaney. when there is a negative news

cycle, the president can get things done, which is usually the case. outside to view people a havingst wing inherentlys more value to him, he makes more phone calls to the outside kitchen cabinet and seeks their advice, because when you are around him, you can be blamed. host: let us put this in perspective, a piece you wrote back in october is titled "my private oval office press conference with donald trump, mike pence, john kelly, and mike pompeo." explain what happened. guest: [laughs] i was interviewing john kelly -- host: when he was going to stay in chief of staff. guest: why hasn't he been fired yet? there were stories constantly about how the president and him heads, theng president offered the job to gary cohen, to steve mnuchin,

the treasury secretary, to the chief of staff of mike pence. so why hasn't he been replaced yet? how has he managed to hang on? that was the question i was trying to answer. i was in the white house during the interviews, and i was on my way out, i got called back and by sarah huckabee sanders, the and she had ay, veritable clown all of officials from the administration coming to talk to me, to try to talk me at of the story, that it is andly oiled machine, everything is going well, they would not be replacing john kelly, he was not looking for a replacement, he confirmed what the white house had previously

said that he was staying on until 2020. you know that is not the case. and they made other statements which is not true, based on what i know. host: our guest is olivia nuzzi, washington correspondent for "new york magazine." you will be working on the 2020 campaign? guest: yes, myself and my co-author will be on the trail. host: the government shutdown, the president said he will take the mantle for the shutdown. he is now blaming the democrats. how is this resolved? guest: i thinkguest: that is what everyone would like to know. it does not look very positive for the president. it looks like an exercise under which a lot of people will be affected, government workers over the holidays not being paid, working without pay, tsa agents, other necessary personnel.

everyone being sort of where they were before this started. this is bush third shutdown since he has taken office. he has not going -- this is the third shutdown since yet taken office. $5is not going to get billion for the border wall. nancy pelosi said democrats will not help him get whatever he wants. now he says it is a democrats shutdown. look what they did. host: you think this could go until january 3? guest: i don't know. i think it is possible. i try not to make productions about trump washington. i have not fared very well in the past doing that. [laughs] host: let's get to the phone lines. caller: hi. thank you for taking my call. fast it is a strong,

decision. the border wall is a harmful idea. . on thelook up "idiot" computer, a picture of donald trump comes up. it is because of his actions and policies. i saw that on twitter a lot of people asked about this issue. please answer it if it is possible. host: the question if the border wall is necessary. mitch mcconnell said democrats supported a type of border wall back in 2006, and senator chuck schumer said that is not the case. guest: half of this finding that the president is requesting thed be going to repairing border wall that is already there. would go toit constructing new portions of the wall. i think that the reason why democrats cannot support this, even if they didn't support some

sort of barrier in the past, is because it has just become associated with this sort of hateful worldview that the president has been perpetuating since he started running for office. it is an impossible position for any democrat right now to support funding border wall. host: this is the headline from your colleague, jonathan chait made theox news white house shutdown the government." guest: the right-wing talkshow host, radio host, have been encouraging this for four democrats take over and control the house. i think what is different now rather than the past is that they came together to criticize the president. previously, some alike and

culture, who wrote -- previously, someone like and coulter, who wrote above, criticize, he sat with her on her own. rushs different because limbaugh, jon hamm -- sean hannity. host: we should point out that was a part of the initial negotiation, a deal on daca. let's go back to your phone calls. jeffrey is joining us from michigan. good morning. you are on the air. caller: i was wondering if this lady is saying that donald trump has gotten nothing done. reform, record low unemployment for a lot of people, a lot of people getting

more money in their pockets, and i think this country is safer now. i mean, i'm not know where this lady is coming from. thank you very much host: thank you. know quite how to respond to this, but i would say the caller is correct, he did get tax reform through. other legislative items he has tried to get through, like trumpcare, has stalled. he has a cloud by the mueller investigation, the other investigations in new york, a news story that is just devastating about the mueller michael:tion, the c.h.i.p.tion, and reform should have been what the

focus should have been on, the border wall, not the government shutdown, and i think it has been a negative for the president. when you were in the oval office, and you have president, the vice president, the secretary of state, the white house chief of staff coming in and out, what was going through your head? because you had not planned on that, correct? guest: no. the oval i walked into office originally, they were not and then the president came in, and then everybody else came in. point, i joked "should i be expecting my mother to come in next?" it felt a bit like an intervention of sorts. i wanted to get him talking. i wanted to get him on the record on as many different subjects as i possibly could, so i tried to be strategic about

when i interjected with , i mades and follow-ups sure to speak with a very consciousness sort of way, and i wanted him to talk to me. they try to stop the interview from continuing. host: let's get back to phone calls. john is next from columbus, indiana. good morning. caller: good morning. how are you guys doing this morning? host: we are great. merry christmas. caller: i have a couple of comments. my family used to be lifeline democrats, but people like chuck schumer and nancy pelosi have just destroyed the party, and it even aims like this young lady here, she is damning the president, and it seems like the first person who has ever even tried to help the people. if the democrats would get back somebody decent

instead, they want to fight, they want to downgrade you really, ma'am, need to think about what you say. y'all have a good evening. should point out senator bob corker says he has some doubts as to whether or not the president will run for reelection in 2020. we should point out he is stepping down in 2020. . spot to the caller's comments? guest: i suppose whether or not robert mueller files this report, that could change things, but you cannot imagine assessing this race in front of him and looking at on theld, which is vast other side and does not seem to have a clear front runner or who the obvious nomination should be. i cannot imagine looking at that

and saying "i am not even in the race," but i just want to say it is not partisan to note that the president has had tremendous difficulty getting things done. it is not partisan to criticize the president for the way he speaks. that is a problem with that since the election, since before the election, where people think any sort of criticism of the president is partisan somehow. it is not. host: you can assume the outgoing and incoming chief of staff will have a conversation, in terms of john kelly giving mick mulvaney some advice. based on your reporting in your interviews, what do you think he is telling him? guest: i think about that a lot. i thought about it the other day when he was photographed shaking his hand in the driveway of the white house, these two men, and i wondered -- what could they be talking about? i imagine he would caution him about leaks. one of the ways john kelly tried to change the west wing was to

try to lessen the number of leaks, something that i think contributed to this environment of paranoia. assuming that everything you say will be distributed to the press, maybe before the interview is even over. that does not really create a happy, healthy work environment. john kelly was not ultimately successful in stopping those leaks, even though many people were fired who were suspected of leaking. i assumed that he would caution him about that, perhaps caution him about how best to speak to the president early on. reporting, kelly did not understand the way that the president speaks. he suggests a of things and he complains about a lot of things, but that does not mean he wants to do anything. kushner,ump and jared

maybe they should just go home to new york. is not necessarily mean that he wants to send them home to new york. understanding that. takes some time. . host: let me share a tweet with the president, brett mcgurk announced he would step down early. the president writing "brad miller, who i did not know, was inointed by president obama 2015," calling him a grandstand such a big deal about this nothing event. why wouldn't he have known him? guest: right, that was the question, and this happens a lot with the president on twitter, that he is making it look like he has nothing to do with a decision, and in doing so, he

raises more questions about his level of awareness in his administration. i do not know why he would send or why helike that would admit to not knowing something like that, but i think the way he thinks about how we all perceive him is very different than the way people in washington and journalists tend to think. host: "the only way to stop drugs, gangs, human trafficking from coming into the united states is a barrier. fun, but it is only a good old-fashioned wall that works." good morning. caller: good morning. want to say it seems like that lady does not like donald trump. i lived by the order, and i can ,ee all the things going wrong

people coming into the united illegal, and by the time they come over here, they go to get all of the benefits. here dopeople who live not get them. there is something wrong with this picture. i am sorry, but i do not, this lady, she seems to not like donald trump. apparently she is a democrat. i used to be a democrat, too. i left them, because they are not doing anything for the people. host: we will get a response. thank you for the call. guest: as i said before, i do not think it is partisan to criticize the president, and i do not think it is a serious argument that anyone who disagrees with the president or has any negative assessments of the way he behaves or speaks is a democrat. says andt true that he

does a lot of unprofessional, unusual, sometimes objectionable things, and that is not a liberal view. it is just a reality-based view. host: to a radio audience, our guest is olivia nuzzi, the washington correspondent for "new york magazine." you can check out her work online. randy is next from alabama. good morning. caller: hi. ask thejust like to lady in question. host: you are on the air. go ahead. caller: everything is wrong in washington has to do with the news reporters. they can't tell the truth. why should people listen to this lady sitting up here talking? thank you. that is all i have to say. guest: have a good day. "this lady" is like my new legal name after this show. [laughs] guest: my writing is about the people in the white house.

i tried to write insightful he about the people who work in the administration, the president. and it is not motivated by an ideology. it is motivated by a worldview, but it is very clear i am not a partisan person. host: in one of the pieces that you wrote, "donald trump hates christmas parties." guest: [laughs] you are not helping me out here with your viewers. he said to several white house officials over the last weeks who told me about the president complaining about having to stand in these long lines, shake hands, and take photos with supporters. in his defense, he does to christmas parties on two days each week with 600 guests. juoked that this is the most

relatable thing i have heard about donald trump, that he does not like to suffer through christmas parties and make small talk with people he barely knows. they cut down on the photo lines , those for secret service and law enforcement, to try to a him, and iease heard he was much happier last year. --t: the first secretary in the first defense secretary in the history of our country to resign in protest. what does this mean? guest: the security team has to do with the president's stated worldview. he talked about how critical he was on interventions on foreign affairs. he criticized barack obama, he criticized even george w. bush, and he talked about isolationist

foreign policy. then people under him, jim bolto, or john there is a split between what the president says and seems to believe and the people who surround him, more establishment, washington background. at this point, who knows who mattis, and he will be looking for someone like john bolton, certainly, based on what differences you had with the president as well. he is a more interventionist. more he will be looking for someone like rand paul or if he is just looking for someone to say yes to him, even if they do not believe him. you think this

town is going to look like in january, with the democrats in control of the house? speaker of the house nancy pelosi under a lot of pressure to begin impeachment proceedings. she is trying to resist that. we have the molar report coming out, reportedly, in mid-february. point these, including -- withrior and the cabinet appointees, including the interior and defense department. guest: i think going forward is contentious, he will be fighting a lot with congress, fighting a lot with nancy pelosi, and fighting off a lot of inquiries. they will try to get his tax returns. they will be looking at the numbers of administration cabinet officials. i think it will be a very contentious environment here. host: finally, with your

reporting, when you were talking to folks in the white house, do you find them to be open? how are you able to get your sources? a source in this white house is a bit like adopting a terminally ill dog. the second you get it to trust you, it dies. everybody has been fired or resigned so far . it is difficult. to build acult relationship, establish trust, wonder if anyone who tells you the truth, and you find someone, you wonder if they are going to stick around. certain people, it is not always telling the truth or at least not actively lying to you, but it is difficult, and you have to really be careful with whose words you have taken, who you check it with, and my old rule about having two different sources and confirming does not really fly here.

you need more like a dozen sources. "an irony of the kelly era is that even though those around the president who had been desperate for help supervising him, like jared kushner trump, whenever able to get over difficulties with kelly. it just moved further and further out of view." guest: early on, there were concerns about reince priebus, sean spicer, advisors for the president, things like that, fighting with each other. conventional republicans, even some democrats who worked there, and more breitbart type of worldview that people like steve bannon have. it is less clear how the divide still a lothere is of testimony there.

bunkerink there is a mentality that has taken hold, especially over the last 8, 10 months. that makes it less likely that speak againstll each other and want their drama spelling out in the press. >> soon to be at with a book after the campaign. when do you think it will be out? >> hopefully after the campaign. again.ase come back "how john kelly failed to tame the west wing." shutdown, day two, you can follow the story on all c-span networks, c-span1 for the house, c-span2 for the senate. tomorrow morning, we will begin

with the shutdown, a live view of the u.s. capitol. talking about health care, a reporter for bloomberg government will join us. the once and future worker, a vision for renewal work is tomorrow. "newsmakers" is next. wishing you a great weekend and a merry christmas. ♪ announcer: here is a look at today's schedule in day two of the government shutdown. newsmakers is next. chuck grassley will head up the finance committee and james in half will head up -- kiersten

testifies before the house judiciary committee. at 1:40, remarks from the president of china. whenever the houses in session, -- house is in session, you can watch coverage here on c-span. the government shutdown will continue past the christmas holiday as the senate and house have ended their sessions. no legislative bill is scheduled in either body until next thursday. watch live house coverage on c-span and in the senate on c-span2. ,nnouncer: tonight, on "q&a" holman jenkins talks about his work and politics during the trump era. >> he wants to be the center of attention. the way he looks at people. everyone is either a friend or

enemy. he holds no grudges. behind the america first thing is an idea he holds been that our country has shortchanged in dealing with the rest of the world. that has been reflected in trade and immigration policy, in middle america, it has heard them. sincere set of beliefs. announcer: tonight, at the eastern -- tonight at 8:00 ."stern on "q&a christmas day on c-span at 11:45 a.m. eastern, a look act at memorial services for barbara bush, john mccain, and president george h.w. bush. at 3:30 p.m.