the senate, conflict and compromise. a c-span original production exploring the traditions, history, and roles of this uniquely american institution. premieres wednesday, january 2 at 8:00 p.m. eastern and pacific on c-span. be sure to go online at c-span.org/senate to learn more about the program and watch original, full length interviews with senators, view farewell speeches from long serving members. and take a tour inside the senate chamber. the old senate chamber. and other exclusive locations. >> this christmas week we will begin a series of leading authors and joining us from new york to begin our series, her book is titled "how to be less stupid about race." good sunday morning. thanks for being with us. guest: good morning. thanks for having me. host: let's focus on the book. you write the following

"hundreds of years after establishing a nation of colonial genocide people are kind of sort of maybe possibly waking up to the sad reality that our racial politics are still garbage. how could the same country that twice voted for an ivy league educated black president end up electing an over the racist who an barely string twogget two -- string together two coherent sentences." let's begin on that point. >> yes. i think one of the motivations for the book, certainly, was the 2016 election. and i write about my own personal journey in the book not just learning about race and racism as a scholar and earlier in my career obviously as a student. ut also my politics. i want to be clear. i know we'll be taking calls from people across the political spectrum, which is great. one thing i don't do in this book is pretend that racism is something that we should treat

in a partisan manner, that it is just a problem on the right. that is absolutely not the case. it is one of the major fallsies about race and racism that i address. instead what i try to do is explain systemic racism is a profound problem across the political spectrum. that includes the left and it includes the democratic party. that's something that i really came to see clearly during obama's presidency, so the ook, you know, lays out from a sociological perspective but also a historical perspective what it means to really recognize that our entire nation was built on white supremacy and built on, as you just read from the book, colonial genocide. and somehow, you know, that racial realism, that realism about the centrality of white supremacy in our politics and culture and society seems to

have not gotten the attention it deserves particularly over the last couple of decades in this era which many people call the post civil rights era. we can have a conversation about that. you know, in many ways we're not post civil rights because people of color are still fighting for civil rights and human rights. but that's the background of the book. and sort of 2016 was a moment where i realized that there was this resurgence, really, of over the white nationalism. but, also, a tolerance of it. and i am someone who is in some ways politically pessimistic. but even i didn't realize just really, you know, how bad the situation is. and so the book came really from me thinking about after 2016 what am i going to do to try to bring the knowledge that

i've acquired about the subject of racism to the broader public? host: two other points from the book. "we are surrounded and at times astounded by the ignorant and dangerous ideas people express about this thing called race." why are so many people so incredibly confused and misinformed about race? it's the white supremacy, stupid. >> you know, one of the things i do obviously from the title of the book is emphasize what i call racial stupidity but other people also talk about in terms of racial ignorance. one of the main ideas of the book is that growing up in a racist society, being socialized in a racist society exposes all of us to racial ignorance and racial stupidity. now, to be clear, one of the things i explain in the book is that we have the research, sociological research to back

this up, that is that white americans tend to be more racially ignorant than people of color. there is a very simple reason for that. simply experiencing racism if you are a minority in this country means that you have a greater chance of having knowledge about what racism is and how it works. now, i say a greater chance because this is problematic. there is no guarantee if you are a person of color that you are somehow going to have breaks in racism. you only have to look at people like kanye west to know you can be black or a person of color in this society and still be incredibly racially ignorant. one of the things i do in the book, now i'm an african-american woman, is ex-main how i had to learn about -- explain how i had to learn about race and racism. one of the ironies i explore in how to be less stupid about race is that, listen, i got my ph.d from one of the most well recognized and revered universities in the world,

harvard university. i specialized in the study of race and racism. and yet i realized after finishing my degree there was so much knowledge that we weren't taught even in one of the world's most, again, renowned universities. and in a department of ciology at harvard that is understandably good reasons, well respected and widely respected. one of the problems, though, and i've talked about this. i was actually invited to harvard recently to address some of these issues, is the 150th anniversary of w.b. dubois' birth, the first african-american to earn a ph.d at harvard. is one of the most widely respected trailblazers in the study of race and racism, and, yet, even dubois was not required reading for students specializing in the study of

race in the department of sociology at harvard university. after i finished my degree and i began to try to fill the gaps in my knowledge and also try to figure out why i wasn't satisfied with my education, one of the things i did was to learn from critical race theory, which has been a very active and lively field of knowledge and scholarship about race and racism that is not really integrated the way it should be in enough main stream sociology. and then i began to understand how people like dubois and others have kind of been excluded even from people who again specialize in the study of race and racism. so racial ignorance is a problem and an epidemic throughout our society and i make it clear in my book it is even an issue and a problem for scholars of race and racism. i talk about, write about my own journey, which is ongoing. you know, i continue to learn about these issues on a daily

basis. host: our guest is crystal fleming and her book is "how to be less stupid about race." in the book you write about this issue. one of the very reasons to listen to black women is because doing so will better equip you to better understand the complexity of oppression and what we can do to challenge it. racially ignorant black women exist. i used to be one of them. are still clueless. let's get to your phone calls. one joining us from chico, california on the democrats' line with our author joining us from new york. good morning. caller: hello. i -- are you hearing me or not? host: we sure can. guest: yes. caller: ok. i just looked at a review on amazon of your book and it looks to me like you're more specializing in bashing white males than anything else. did you know white males created the modern world? you got those white genes flowing in your body, baby. so you need to share that white guilt.

>> steve, can you repeat the name of the caller? host: wanda. guest: wanda. ok. there is so much racial stupidity in what you just said that we can unpack. so you said you read a review on amazon. i'd encourage you to read not just my book but probably a whole stack of books that you need to find in the library. one of the things you need to understand is that my book and scholarship on race and racism is not about bashing white men. one of the things people don't really understand, particularly people who are racially ignorant, is that opposing white supremacy is not the same thing as bashing white people. you talk about white men. you'd probably be surprised to find out that one of the things i explain in the book is how i learned about systemic racism from a white man. dr. ira silver was one of my professors at wellesley college. and dr. silver was one of the

first teachers i had in my education that actually explained what systemic oppression was. not just racism. although that was one of the things we learned about in his introduction to sociology course. but, also, class oppression. right? we learned about these issues from a sociological perspective in his class. so i write about that because many people, like you, are, you know, particularly racially ignorant and think if you're talking about racism and white supremacy you're bashing white people. the fact is we have always had in this country a minority of whites who are actually anti-racist. and these are people who understand what systemic racism is. they oppose white supremacy. and i am in solidarity with folks -- whatever their racial ethnic background -- who oppose systemic racism. so that's the first thing that i would say. the second part of what you

said, i think you said i have white genes flowing through my veins and that i should share in white guilt. there's just so much in what you've said that is offensive and quite repulsive but i'll just address one thing. the fact of the matter is, and i don't know how you identify, but most people would look at someone who is african-american and even though we might be what scholars call multi-generational, multi-racial, and they will still discriminate against us because of the way that white people, that is people who have come to define themselves as white and that's a whole maybe nother conversation that we could talk about in some of the other calls but whiteness, itself, is a made up category that is itself based on a modern fiction. but people who call themselves white, right, discriminate against people who look like me. and so to suggest that because i, you know, have ancestry or other african-americans have

ancestry that includes europeans is extraordinarily ignorant in part because part of this country's racial history around interracial mixture is the history of interracial and particularly white supremacist rape. era s during the slave white men often raped african-american women they enslaved and sometimes girls that they enslaved. this is a large reason why many african-americans have mixed ancestry. and so for you to distort that history to suggest that the descendents of those raped slaves should share in the guilt for the crimes committed against their ancestors and share in the guilt for the ongoing crimes of discrimination, systemic racism, is absurd. that's how i would reply to that. i also would encourage you to address your racial ignorance and, you know, read a whole lot of books.

not just mine. you can start with mine but i would also encourage you to read the notes where i extensively point the reader to scholarship both historical,, sociological, and otherwise on these issues. host: crystal fleming earned her doctor as she mentioned from harvard. she is joining us from new york. her previous book was "resurrecting slavery." joining us from lawrenceville, georgia our line for independents, good morning. juste background. i am 67 years old. caller: good morning. i'm 67 years old. i was raised in south louisiana. my extended family was overtly racist to say the least. i joined the navy in 1969 and was in memphis, tennessee. therel tension in the military at that time. i attended a race relations

seminar and i ended up marrying the facilitator of that seminar. i came a long way in my own issues with race. i still have difficulty talking about it. i read a number of books. word."entitled "the n does your book address -- i still have a lingering issue with african-americans. there seems to be a denial of some of the cultural issues within the black community. i was wondering if your book addresses those issues. host: thank you for the call. guest: thank you for your question. one of the things he said was even though you married and antiracist facilitator -- an antiracist facilitator and have a thinking about these issues

you sometimes feel uncomfortable or struggle with it in some way. i want to knowledge that is very typical. finishedg as having your antiracist work. i think the question makes that clear the kiss you were not finished with your work. let me explain what i mean. when people start to ask about --ican-american culture and maybe there is denial around some of the things you see in black culture. you need to take a step back and understand the historical and social context in which you are framing just that question. you first have to book knowledge that for the last several , theries this country united states has built a culture of not just white supremacy, for anti-blackness. the idea is something wrong with

black people is american as apple pie. it has been used ideologically to justify what is wrong with white supremacy. that is everything is wrong with white supremacy. everything is wrong with dehumanizing other human beings on the basis of anything, much less made a pathology of race. everything is wrong with building the culture that not just justifies racial oppression but celebrates it and makes it patriotic to celebrate white male dominance over other people. everything is wrong but that. there has never been a moment in this country's history where the has been agreement on the fact that is wrong. it is morally wrong. it is repugnant and should be an offense to everyone who cares about human rights and justice. the other part of it is that the ideology of anti-blackness,

which then plays out in the form of discrimination, centuries of ongoing discrimination, centuries of ongoing disparities, as well as people who think they are well-meaning and antiracist still wonder what is wrong with black people. when i was in college -- i don't recount this in the book but i share it with people who talk about the book with me. asked was in college i the question similar to yours. i had not yet begun my study of race and racism. i was very ignorant. i wrote one of my professors in college and i asked -- it was a black studies professor. black people are struggling around the world. is there something wrong with black culture? this professor, who understood

right away that might question was coming from a place of profound ignorance and internalized oppression, their first response was you need to take classes, my class, classes on the subject. once i began to take that advice and study the subject and learn about the mechanisms of ness and white supremacy that operating destructionough the this many societies and feeling of resources from africa, when i learned about the consequences of the transatlantic slave trade, when i learned about what it meant to build a society that celebrates destroying black families in black culture, and then flips the script and asks what is

wrong with black people, it became clear that there is nothing wrong with black people. this is one of the basic -- it sounds basic but it is not widely enough understood. this is one of the basic insight -- if you are an antiracist, you need to understand is nothing wrong with black people. there are people who study sociology of culture and cultural racism and the cultural dynamics and aspects of racism who have unfortunately, even in my field of sociology, mythologized black culture by saying there is something wrong with it. if we just fix black culture in a certain way, apparently racism will disappear. the fact of the matter is that as long as you have a system that is built on and perpetuates

white supremacy and anti-blackness and discrimination, there is no way to adjust black culture that will get rid of white supremacist racism. white supremacist racism does not only reward people who take on what is considered the dominant culture and punish people who deviate from that. in fact what happens is through systemic racism, racist policies, implicit bias in which you don't even realize you were making negative associations between racial minorities and your own stereotypes, that all of these things combined such that discrimination happens in a split second. you don't know the cultural practices or values of the people you are discriminating

against when you have implicit bias. studies have shown that merely rimesg a black image p people to discriminate against those people. that is in the absence of knowing anything about their culture. answer, thended first thing i would remind you is at that the question of what is wrong with black people is what this country was built on. when you can be clear about that. that is an element of white supremacist culture they need to be challenged. host: a lot of people want to talk to you with their questions. they can also check out your work on your website at crystalfleming.com. "how to be less stupid about race." eugene is joining us from maryland. caller: good morning, dr. fleming. i am so proud of you.

questions, id my want to issue these myself to you. senior, eugene williams a gentleman who was able to get teams to sing and play the knee group -- negor national anthem. just google "list every voice and sing." beyonce sang "list every voice and sing" recently and got great reviews. old 77 euros educator in an article with beyonce. in anyear-old educator article with beyonce. do you know the words to "lift every voice and sing"? guest: the want me to answer that? caller: let me ask all of them.

do you know the words to "lift every voice and sing

country but we will focus on the united states, religion is tightly connected to the maintenance of white supremacy, and for a very simple reason. those europeans and their descendents who came to this lands, and still native dispossessed indigenous people, -- kidnapped africans they enslaved and exploitative labor. one of the things they did was to draw on religion and their religion, christianity, to justify the religion, christiano justify the dehumanization of people they said who were racially inferior, so , the people who are already in church now and will be going to church later today and who may not know enough about the history of the use of christianity to justify racial

oppression in this country. again, i want to be clear, christianity is not the only religion that has been used in this way, but it is central to the way racism operates in the united states. there was a study, i think from anduniversity of virginia, if you google the study, you see the image, if you do not know the context, they have a black and white composite image, you might think "is this a serial killer?" in fact, it is not, it is what isy think god looks like, it a smiling white man, a young white man, and this is not 1918, this is 2018. millions of people still believe that god, first of all, has a race, and that god happens to

like a white man. if you think about how that shapes everything from police encounters, to decisions to who gets a loan or does not get a loan, who gets hired or does not get hired for a job. work with groundbreaking and showing sort of how white supremacist racism shifts an array of discriminatory decisions. one of the things her work showed is white men with a criminal record get called back for job opportunities at a higher rate than african-american men without a criminal record. understand this dynamic without looking at how religion and representing god or hass as a white man contributed to this culture of racism that we are all living

with. thank you for telling me about your role in getting the negro league complete throughout the nation, these different sporting events. knowe to confess, i do not all the words, but i will look up the words to "lift every voice and sing." i know certain words command i had to leave the rest. thank you for your question. host: another half hour with our guest, crystal fleming. she writes "people ask why i now hate the "new york times." the "new york times" is systemic systematic racism.

it is like most other newspapers, only more egregious and harmful given its teflon reputation and global influence." why? racismhow systemic distorts what we see and what we read in the news in mainstream media. i was a conventional consumer 6,enues until maybe 5, seven years ago, when i started ofhave a more critical view these issues, and i was really uphold once i started to pay attention to the dynamics of white supremacy and anti-correctness, to see how many of the -- anti-blackness, see how many papers i wrote up revering, from "the new york hows," to the "new yorker,"

they also perpetuate racist stereotypes, and part of the that news men overwhelmingly white and disproportionately white male, in particular, so we see marginalizing people of color, decision-making and the newsrooms, so as far as goes, andork times" again it is a publication that many people see as liberal and presents itself as antiracist of does present the work antiracist callers, but the problem is papers like the "new york times" often take a both sides approach, so they will have profiles of nazis and neo-nazis that sort of normalize

their perspective, presented at as the other issue alongside columns like people who are legitimately raises for muscle racist, sodes -- this both sides approach is something i critique. the "new york times" also essentially published ap strength of rise of hitler's that the effect basically saying "don't worry about him," the "new york times" condemned martin luther king jr. for his to vietnam, and systemic racism here at home as well as poverty, the "new york times" condemned him, so of

course i want to be clear there journalists and writers, many of my i do respect, who do publish in the "new york times." i would like to see the "new york times" stopped publishing a white supremacist in a way that normalizes them. that is the problem that i would like to see addressed. host: we will go to richard in albuquerque, new mexico. good morning. caller: good morning. first of all, i would really like to say to you that you were not kidnapped or the blacks were beginning,ed in the they were slaves to the hunters and masters in a. -- in africa. put them into slavery. when the portuguese came over and happened to go through the oriental, they stopped by there, and it was the african masters

who sold into slavery there own black people. host: crystal fleming, your response. guest: yes, thank you for your question. two things about what you said. percival, i am glad that you mention the portuguese, because the portuguese were the first europeans to begin the transatlantic slave trade. they were one of the first actors involved in establishing the transatlantic slave trade. the issue of whether africans were kidnapped and brought to the united states and enslaved, there is no question about that. that is a historical fact. the issue, though, of the existence of slavery in africa, as well as in europe and around the world, is also a historical fact. so to be clear, and i encourage you to read my book, and also

read the books that i cite, but to the clear, white supremacist racism that came out of transatlantic slave trade and colonialism did not invent slavery. slavery was and has been a problem, and i find it a little strange that you focus on slavery and assess and africans enslaving each other, if you have nothing to say about europeans enslaving each other, which they have done for longer than they actually enslaved africans and their descendents. so the history of slavery itself is quite vast. i would point you to the work of orlando patterson. orlando patterson is a sociologist at harvard with whom i work. of somee my criticisms of his work, but he is one of

the experts on the history and sociology of slavery, so i would just encourage you to deepen your knowledge of the subject, because there seem to be some gaps. host: this is sheldon in louisiana. you are on the line with crystal fleming. good morning. caller: i want to ask her opinion on affirmative action. is it a good thing? what is her position on it? inause it has been attacked , uh, schools in terms of college, in terms of schools and situations like that , that black people or people of color might qualify. host: thank you. we will get a response. guest: thank you. great question.

as you may know, affirmative action is being limited. there is -- litigated. there is an important case right now at harvard university, which will have the important implications. affirmative action has been under attack since its inception. one of the things i would mention is the work of iraq cap nelson, whora kat wrote a book called "what affirmative action was white." take a look back at what is white supremacy, white supremacy has been a system of todouts from white people other white people. that is what it is. fromally everything handing out land to other white

people and excluding native americans from their own land as well as people of color, african-americans in particular, outing out land to handing salaries,t higher even for people who technically have the same job, this is what discrimination does, this is what racial dissemination does. -- racial discrimination does. if we switch from racism to sexism, what is patriarchy? what is sexism? that is what discrimination doe, it discriminates against one group and favors another group. with affirmative action, the number one beneficiaries of affirmative action have not been african-americans, have not been native americans, have not been people of color, in fact, it has been white women. white women have been the number

one beneficiaries of affirmative action. one of the things of the things that means is white women, like other women, tend to marry men of their own ethnic or racial identity comes anyway, affirmative action has also continued to benefit white men, because they're white whites benefit from it, so their families then also benefit from affirmative action. so one of the things we have not seen in this country is a recognition of who has really benefited from government handouts throughout history. it has been disproportionately white americans. and until you had a historical, political, sociological clarity, this conversation about affirmative action to address racism is going to be fundamentally confused. host: from florida, janet, you are next. good morning. caller: good morning. ms.uld like to ask her, um,

what shefirst of all, thinks about interracial marriages. interracial marriages in my family, and i have aredchildren that interracial, and i give them my heart. i love them just as much as i love my white grandchildren. i would like to know what she thinks about that, because i bet she does not like that. understand -- she is very well educated, um, and i harvardso like to know is a great university, they are wonderful, but i woul and i am y glad she got an education from

them, but i would like to know how she got into wellesley, first of all. up, she seemsang to perpetrate, not hatred, but things not getting better. host: let me jump in, because a lot of people want to weigh in as well. first, on interracial marriage. guest: thank you, janet. your first question on interracial marriage, it sounds like you assumed you do not think i like it, again, that shows your ignorance and the prejudices that you have based on not having knowledge. i would recommend that you read my book, is there is actually a hold chapter on interracial love, and i talk about the scholarship on interracial marriage and interracial mixture, which i encourage you to read, which clearly you have not. one of the things i learned from

that research looks at not just the united states but also latin america and other countries where interracial marriage and prevalent,more colorfu one of the things that we learned from that research is that interracial relationships are not enough to end racism. in fact, we have seen the use of interracial mixture to produce white supremacy. in latin america, there is a historical tradition of "whitening," in which they attempted to improve the inferior byonsider mixing, that they would improve and move up the scale of civilization. i hope that is clear to you that that is a deeply racist and

it alsoe action, but shows you that just mixing together is not necessarily antiracist. i would encourage people -- one of the things i talk about in that chapter is i encourage people to think about things in terms of gender and sexism. very few people believe, as far as i know, that the way to end sexism is just for people, men and women to have sex with each other and love each other, like that will end patriarchy. that does not make any sense. a letter people who do, particularly whites who have married in racially or people who have color in their family, sometimes they perpetuate the means they are antiracist, and that is not enough. the other thing i do in that chapter is i talk about my own relationship. i am in an interracial know you are and i probably surprise because of your own racist assumptions, but that is something i address as well.

we do not need to have just interracial love in interracial marriage, we need to have antiracist love and antiracist marriage in friendship. that kind of anti-racist perspective does not look like what you are talking about, which is denying the existence of racism, even when we have mixture. your other question -- inference that race was a factor in your admission into either wellesley or harvard. guest: it goes back to the prior caller, right, asking about affirmative action. one of the things about our racist society is that people will often look at someone like well,black woman, and say how did you get into such a procedure's university? at whitedo not look men and say well how did you get into harvard, how did you get into an ivy league university, and we should ask that question,

because the how did you get into question, if we ask it of white people, which makes us have to confront what racism and sexism and classism has done to distort our country, we do not live in a meritocracy, right. mythpeople still have the that if you just work hard, you will succeed, and everybody is on an equal playing field. that is not true. we know that women get discriminated against, which means men are being favored and privileged. we know people are color are being discriminated against, which means whites are being favored systematically. people who are disabled are discriminated against. people who are able-bodied are favored. we know that the poor and working-class artist terminated against and that elites are -- are discriminated against, and that the elites are privileged.

the fact that their legacy of students, their parents, their crib her or family member went there, so we do not ask that in,tion of how did they get fro it enforces discrimination, and i think we should. host: we welcome you on potus channel 124 and also on the bbc parliament channel. hn is joining us in new york. ahn.r: that is it sounds like a great book. author.a well spoken landlord of a relatively small city, and i see systematic racism, and i can see what is happening in the families to my rent. who need help are

not getting it in housing, and nobody is talking about it. housing is -- they find ways -- the government finds ways not to help the poor with their housing payments. i can't tell you how many times i have been denied payment after somebody has already moved in because people who are on dss cannot make an appointment or they do not do some kind of paperwork, and may just find ways to cut them off, and then they end up being evicted. now, i work with people, but a lot of times, i imagine they would be evicted by other landlords. their kids have to change schools. f someone does not have stable

housing and their kids are always changing schools, what kind of chance does that give them for helping them improve their life? i think it has been a sad situation since the 2016 election. it is like a backlash to having a black president. i feel really sad about our country and how many people are racist, and they don't even know it. host: let me stop you there. we will get a response. thank you for the call. guest: thank you so much for your call and for sharing your perspective. as a landlord, you see these issues upfront. one of the things that is important about what you stated the linkou recognize between systemic racism and class suppression.

problems ofreat systemic racism is it prevents working-class people, or people across-- poor people differences to come together and see that they have a common struggle against class suppression. and you are absolutely right that this country finds ways to not help working-class people and poor people who are struggling, whether it is with rent or simply having access to quality health care or with having access to quality education, and this is, you know, you are in the front line for that, and so i have nothing but agreement. i would mention, you mentioned the issue with convictions, a sociologist named matthew desmond has risen a book called "evicted," which examines these

issues. host: the next call is william from nevada, democrats line. abbeville, new york. go ahead, william. caller: yes, good morning. is there a difference between a black man with a conservative political viewpoint and an uncle tom? i am not being frivolous. i am confused by that. host: thank you, william. guest: [laughs] thank you, william. i am laughing because there is a part of my book, there is a chapter called "racial stupidity in the obama era, and it comes before a tractor on trump called -- a chapter on trump called usemp country," and people tom, as a term for uncle and he is not a conservative.

well, some people debate that. a lot of daylight sometimes between the corporate democratic party and republicans on a number of issues. but having said that, is there a difference of being black and conservative and uncle tom? yes, i think there is, i think of an uncle tom as a black person who betrays african-americans and throws them under the bus and participates with maintaining some aspect of white supremacy. when i think of comments like kanye west, who essentially blamed enslaved african-americans for being that is what i, associate with being an uncle tom. when i think of some of the views i had before i began to seriously study issues of race and racism, like that question i had in college -- what is wrong with black people?

that is an uncle tom question. internalized suppression, one way of being an uncle tom, you are an african-american who is internally suppressed. when i think of president obama throwing his pastor under the s, reverend wright, honoring the confederacy, which is something other presidents before him did, a president who went into black churches, black tomunities, talked down black people, patronized african-americans, and really that white the myth supremacy and in a long time ago toi would not go so far as say obama embraced post-racialism, but he did not at any point and still does not come even as an ex-president, he still has not overly challenge

or even acknowledge the ongoing existence of white supremacy in this country. i think being an uncle tom, being internally suppressed is something that spans the political spectrum. excerpts of the of your book "no one is going to be able to explain to you in a should bewhat you .ble to do to confront racism we are dealing with collective problems and institutionalize inequality is. when he to become more comfortable telling unflattering truths about our society." host: mary. caller: if we are still racist -- and if we are so racist, how many people leave it, seeking asylum elsewhere? guest: thank you for your question. my understanding of your

question is if it is such a racist country, why do people try to come here? that yousuggestion is read about geopolitics, and that means actually reading about what is happening in other countries in the world and how american policy shapes that. one of the things that have happened, particularly throughout latin america and south america is the systematic obstruction of economies, and we're seeing migrants across the violence,d to escape trying to escape struggling , and that our country has played a role in producing those problems. so people are desperate, in many that, to leave situations our country and other countries have helped create and perpetuate. partere is a geopolitical of the issue that maybe you're not knowledgeable about.

in terms of asylum, in fact, one of the things i think of is a project that you have not heard genocide,recharge which was an effort of youth in the u.n., go to geneva, there was a whole andem of police abuse on for that went t decades, african-americans literally being tortured and giving false confessions. people of color went to the u.n. -- not asylum, but to seek recognition for the civil rights abuses that have been happening in our country. and there has been also a movement, it back to africa movement, which you may have heard of.

other efforts to leave the united states and go elsewhere. but again, once you take on the geopolitical or limbs, you will understand that our country has really devastated many african societies and countries, whether the economy, resources, and otherwise, we have made it difficult -- i say "we," but i really mean this country's leadership has made it difficult for african-americans, in particular, to go somewhere. where are we going to go where our country has not and is not still in located in devastating those economies? we can, and some people do, as a tradition of leaving this country. i talked about w.e.b. dubois earlier in this hour. he left. he is buried in ghana. for many reasons, but he saw the

limitations around this country, issues, not just of race but class and politics more generally. but there are also people who say you know what, this is my country, my ancestors built this country, whether you like it or not, and we are part of addressing the racism and the class suppression and other forms of domination that are happening. where then people ask ways of premises can go, i do not see a lot of people asking them to leave or whether they should leave the country and maybe that is the question you should ask instead of why don't the racists and neo-nazis leave. host: the book, "how to be less stupid about race," joining us from new york, author and professor crystal >> this week, join washington journal for authors' week

featuring segments with a new author. weakening at 8:30 a.m. eastern on monday, "the once and future worker." on tuesday, "what the hell do you have do lose? from swore on civil rights -- trump's war on civil rights." "squeeze: why our families cannot afford america." on friday, "sex matters, how modern feminism lost touch with common sense." saturday, "the view from flyover country." and sunday, "american overdose." join us for authors week each morning this week on "washington journal." the government shutdown will

continue past the christmas holiday as the senate and house have ended their sessions. islegislative business scheduled in either body until next thursday. as always, watch live house coverage on c-span and the senate on c-span two. now, from the french embassy in washington, a discussion on the role of international organizations such as nato and the u.n. in promoting peace. the panel includes former u.s. diplomat victoria nuland and the french abbasid or. -- and the french ambassador. jonathan: hi, everyone.