house of representatives, still even with the reforms that nancy pelosi has pledged to accept based on my counterparts and in the problem solvers caucus, there is too much power in too many hands with too few done getting -- getting done for the american people. announcer: watch conversations with retiring members of congress tonight at 8:00 eastern on c-span and c-span.org and listen with the free c-span radio app. ♪ announcer: this week on "q&a," zachary wood, assistant editor at the atlantic discusses his book, "uncensored: my life and uncomfortable conversations at the intersection of black and white america." brian: zachary wood, before we

talk about your book, "uncensored," tell us where you are at in your life. zachary: i just graduated from williams college in early june. i have been on a book tour and i have done a few cities. i am based in new york city but soon i will be moving back to washington, d.c. and will be assistant editor at the atlantic. brian: how old are you? zachary: 22. brian: what was your major at williams? zachary: political science. brian: in your book, you talk about various places. i just want to go through them and tell us what you did there at stanford university. zachary: that was the summer before my freshman year, and i was taking four college courses ahead of time. brian: why? zachary: i was always driven, very ambitious. i did not want to spend my summer reading in my room. i thought it would be great because i was going to be on the ast coast, and experience

different weather, great institution. great political science department. brian: yale. zachary: that was a writer's conference the summer after my freshman year. i attended a number of work shops, and it really helped me improve on nonfiction writing. brian: columbia. zachary: that was my junior year, it was a study away experience. i focused on political science and psychology. it was a great time. brian: you grew up where? zachary: washington, d.c. and detroit. a bit of both. i was born in washington, d.c. in 1995, but i moved around a bit. brian: where have you lived since then? zachary: i have lived in greenbelt, maryland for a little bit, i lived in laurel, the district of columbia, and two different places in detroit. brian: i can hear somebody saying, how has this man, at age 22, lived enough that he has now

already written a book? zachary: definitely. it is something that -- how does that happen so early? i would say, i knew i wanted to share my story at some point in my life, it was something i always had an interest in. but i did not anticipate or expect i would have the opportunity to do that at 22 years old. i wrote an article for "the washington post," and i described a number of the challenges low income students face when they go home for the holidays. the responsibilities and obligations, they have to help their family, and how stressful that can be. when i wrote the article, it gained significant traction, and a literary agent reached out and said i think you have a story to tell. my initial reaction was, in five to 10 years? at what point? she said more immediately. brian: i'm going to read the first line, it is a question, in your introduction, and ask you why you did this. you open with, "do black people come from apes?"

why would you put that in print? the reason i put that imprint is i think it goes straight to a very -- charles murray is a speaker i invited to williams. there are a number of ways that race comes up in subtle and overt ways. i wanted to open up with something that was clear, direct, and a little shocking. that opens with a point or question of uncomfortable learning. this is a question i was asked by a peer of mine. i did not feel very comfortable being asked the question. i thought, what is something that will draw the reader in, that will take them immediately to a pivotal experience for me? i thought that would be a good way to start. brian: who has had the biggest influence on your life? zachary: probably my mother.

brian: having said that, i'm going to put on the screen some things she said to you. zachary: yeah. brian: let's start out doing that. i'm not even going to read the whole thing, because it is tough for somebody like me to read this. "you ungrateful little bitch-ass," i am not going to use the n-word. "she told me through gritted teeth after she had worn herself out from yelling." -- why did you decide to use that language from your mother? zachary: that's the language she used with me. as a writer, one of the things i wanted to do, a risk a risk i wanted to take was to make myself vulnerable in writing the book. the main reason i wanted to do that is because i have come to

really believe that one of the best ways to build empathy and compassion is to take the risk of putting yourself out there. this was a painful experience i had with my mom. she spoke like this often, this wasn't a once in a while kind of thing. this was happening on a weekly basis. it shaped me, it informed how i view the world, how i understand race and equality. i thought it was critical in trying to convey the truth of my experience. brian: some more. "i gave birth to your black ass, i raised you, i closed you, i fed you, i will not come second to whoever this bitch is, have i made myself clear?" -- for the next half hour, she grilled me about my girlfriend in explicit detail, what did her body look like, what kind of kisser was she, what did i want

to do with her when we were alone? it was the last thing i wanted to discuss. what is the background on that? zachary: i am 13 or 14 years old, not just interested in girls anymore, i'm starting to talk to girls now, i'm interested in dating now, i'm just beginning to date and i have my first serious girlfriend. my mom essentially felt threatened by that. there is another woman in his life whom she feared i would love more than her. it was an irrational fear or anxiety have, but that was my read of what was going on with her concern and interest in it. she got very upset. she wanted to read every text message, she wanted to know every time i communicated with her in any shape or form, if i was thinking about her. she wanted to know my inner thoughts, feelings, things you would not share.

this is one example of how that would come up in our conversations in the car and at home. brian: where is she today? zachary: my mother lives in detroit, michigan. brian: what is she doing? zachary: she is not working at the moment. at various points throughout her life, she has gone back and forth between jobs. she tends to not stick with one long. brian: what is her background in education? zachary: she was in the all but dissertation situation, she went to the university of maryland for undergrad. was always very smart. brilliant, but did not have the kind of discipline to really do as well in school as she could have done, but she always did well enough. later on, she got her masters from mary grove college and pursued a phd in behavioral health. brian: how often do you talk to her? zachary: it varies.

i try to make an effort to stay in touch. there are times we will go months without speaking. brian: has she read the book? zachary: she has. brian: what did she say to you after? zachary: she had a lot of difficulty with it, the fact that i shared so much, that i opened up so much, and for her, she was in denial. she cannot accept the fact that she was anything but a wonderful mother. and i put that in the book, "i have always been a wonderful mother to you, zachary." that is how that conversation book, after she read the the first thing she said to me on the phone was "i have always been a wonderful mother to you, zachary." brian: is it true? zachary: no, that is not true. i think anyone who reads the book will see it is not true, it is far more complicated than that. there were wonderful things my mother did for me. my mother always loved me, even when she was upset, even when she was abusive. i never questioned that.

maybe when i was younger, he could you or four years old and your mother is infuriated over something you don't understand, but i always knew she loved me. but she made significant mistakes and that ended up playing a critical part in my development. brian: describe your early years growing up with her, and where it was and what your living conditions were, and did she work at the time? zachary: she was -- we moved back and forth between the dmv area and detroit. part of that was because of her mental illness, there were times she wanted to be close to her mom, my grandmother, and there were times where she did not want to be around family at all. we moved back and forth. i went to first grade at three different schools. that is an example of how much we were moving. it was very turbulent. her personality was so unpredictable. i would wake up in the morning

and i would not know, is it going to be a good day or bad day? was she going to be sad or depressed and lay in bed all day and cry? or was she going to be furious over something? something as simple as me dropping my fork on the floor at dinner, something like that. or was today going to be a day where we went to play arcade games and saw three movies and got ice cream and went out to dinner and did all of these things? you never knew. i had to learn to read certain signs, certain cues, to pay attention to her behavior and get a sense. that made me more self-aware, it may mean more attentive, it may be more conscientious as a person. brian: where did she get her money when you were growing up? zachary: there was a significant portion of time where she was on disability because of her mental illness. she did not have to work. there were times where our

financial circumstances were difficult. not nearly as difficult as they would be for me when i moved to washington, d.c. to live with my dad, but there were times when we did not have a car, we had to take public transportation, a paycheck-to-paycheck situation. then there were times it was a bit better. when she did work, she worked for an organization called gateway community health for a while, and they focused on addressing the stigma attached to mental elements and on mental health and research behind it. brian: you said that she would speak to groups and take you with her, and that you would speak to groups about your life. explain that. zachary: essentially she wanted to tell a story of success. she went through tribulations and ultimately triumphed over her mental illness. that was the narrative she wanted to share. she started an organization

called dig my roots foundation. she worked on that three or four years. she persuaded a number of therapists who studied psychology at the university of michigan, they were well-trained, respected in their field, that she had overcome everything. here she was, this single mother doing everything she possibly could to do the best for her son. and this was her story of overcoming bipolar, her mental illness was actually schizophrenia, but she was not correctly diagnosed until later. they were so taken with her, she had excellent soft skills, great people person. they said, we want you to speak at our annual conference, we want to speak at our annual event. and she was delighted to have the opportunity, and she brought me along with her. and she said, zachary should speak as well. brian: what did you say? zachary: she would write these

speeches for me, i was only in fourth grade at the time. it would begin, my mom is my number one fan and best friend. that is how it would begin, and it would end with, this is why, because of my mother story and influence on me, this is why i believe i will make a positive difference in the world one day. what she had me saying was that she was a wonderful mother who went through trying times but ultimately was a strong enough person to overcome that. brian: describe her physically. zachary: about 5'7", dark skin. she had dark brown hair. she was -- gorgeous smile. she was the kind of person who would lean in while speaking, great with people. her personality was very amorphous, she could be all things to all people. if she was talking to someone,

she was very quickly able to assess the situation to get a sense of what they wanted from her, and she always knew what she wanted from other people. brian: who is kevin? zachary: that was my mother's boyfriend. brian: is that his real name? zachary: no. not his real name. brian: any real names in here? zachary: there are some. if there is a real name in there, i am only saying brief and positive things about that person. brian: what was the impact on your life with kevin, and did you live in an apartment or house of some kind? zachary: kevin, my mom's boyfriend who eventually became her fiance and then her husband, he was with us the majority of the time as we moved from detroit back to d.c., greenbelt, laurel, back to detroit. and he loved her deeply, and she manipulated him in ways that were just unconscionable.

things you cannot even imagine or conceive of. and he was so dependent on her, that became clear to me as i got older, he needed her so much and -- in his life that it was her way or the highway. brian: are they still married? zachary: they are. brian: is the marriage working? zachary: if you want to call it working, it is working. they are still together. the dynamics might have changed since i left. that is certainly possible. but she makes all of the decisions. brian: when did you move in with your father, and where did you live and how many people lived in the house with you? zachary: i moved in with my father the summer after my eighth grade year. i was moving into a house with four people, sometimes five. it was me and my dad, my grandmother, my uncle, and my sister, probably about two to three days a week. brian: where is it?

zachary: ward eight of washington, d.c., in a small community called bellevue. brian: in the anacostia section? zachary: yes, about 10 minutes from anacostia station. brian: what was the house like? zachary: it looks kind of like a duplex. you have someone living beside us. the two homes are attached. it was in utter disrepair. you walk into the kitchen and you have to be careful where you step because there is a gaping hole covered by a piece of plywood. and my grandmother has diabetes and the medicine makes her gain weight, and she would have to work through her mobility, not that great, getting to the refrigerator every day just to put something into the microwave. in terms of going up the steps, the railing was very bad. there was always water leaking at the top of the steps.

in my room, it was the worst, the ceiling had caved in numerous times, and every time we tried to fix it, it would happen again because there was a faulty roof. we tried to get the roof fixed once, it was leaking in another place. there were so many things that made it incredibly difficult just living there. one, there were two bedrooms and you have five people, right? so my dad sleeping on the floor. brian: where were you? zachary: at one point early on, i was on the floor as well, or on a cot, one of the two, and then my uncle generously decided to move downstairs when i started going to high school. he said, you can have that room. brian: you said you were afraid you would have to go to ballou high school. what is so bad about it? zachary: anyone who lives in

ward eight or seven, you have seen it on the news. with respect to shootings, robberies, fights. it is a school in and under resourced disadvantaged , community where teachers are butg the best they can, they don't have the resources they need. students are coming to school every day having faced a number of challenges at home. it is a really, really tough environment. i cannot imagine myself succeeding there. brian: how did you avoid it? zachary: after i had left detroit, i had done really well at the private school in detroit, roper, and the headmaster said i am going to look at my contacts and see who i know in d.c. at landon, sidwell, a number of the top schools. he made a point of putting me in

contact and saying to deans and headmasters, this is a student you should consider. brian: where did you go? zachary: bolus. a private school in potomac, maryland. you have about a 100 acre campus. wonderful landscape, geography is amazing. incredible teachers. a five star school. brian: where did you get the money to go there? zachary: if i remember correctly, tuition was about $34,000, not cheap. i did not have one 34th of that. my dad was working two jobs. -- three jobs. they gave me a scholarship that covered about a little over 90% of the tuition. but just in order to pay the remainder, my dad was doing

valet, delivering papers in the morning from 1:00 to 4:00 a.m., then he was going to a 9:00 to 5:00 job as an accounts payable coordinator. brian: what is he like? zachary: my dad is probably the strongest person i know. certainly the hardest working person i know. he has a kind of stoic dignity. he has gone through so much in his life, but you will never hear him complain about anything. brian: what does he think about what you have been through in -- and what was his reaction to you going to a private school and on to williams? zachary: he has always been supportive. he's not an emotionally open person. there were times in my life where i really needed to confide in him and talk to him and say this is what is going on with my mom, this is how i am feeling, and i was not really able to do that. but i do know that he was always proud and he was always there, and he was always working as

hard as he possibly could to ensure that my sister and i would have far more opportunities than he had. brian: was he married to your mother at one point? zachary: he was, yes. brian: what caused the divorce? zachary: my mother's account is that he became abusive toward her and was very insensitive and threw her around one day, and i don't believe any of this happened. my dad has denied it happened. but that is one thing about my dad. my mom told me in vivid detail, and i described this in the book, what made her leave, him throwing her around. none of that, for anyone who knows my dad, aligns at all with anything you would see with him or his personality. but he did not go on and on about his issues with my mom, he simply said, that's not how i remember it happening, zach. your mother loves you. brian: how much are you in touch with your dad today? zachary: i saw him this morning. we got breakfast.

all the time, i probably text him every other day. brian: so bolus had what impact on you? can you describe what the student body was like? zachary: the student body was, for a private school, fairly diverse, which is to say they had some students from disadvantaged backgrounds. not many, the overwhelming majority -- it was a predominantly white private school. students from wealthy backgrounds. parents who owned furniture companies and were investment bankers and a lot of old money and old wealth. in a very affluent community, students from affluent backgrounds, and many excellent educators who were really committed to their students, and

in particular, speaking to my own experience, there were about handful of teachers there who really played a critical role in helping me become a better writer, thinker, and scholar. brian: what is the email story? zachary: this is the summer after my junior year, and everyone is concerned about college. it is the thing on everyone's mind. it is coming up all the time. i am a good student. there were three or four students who were also near the top of our class, and i really wanted to help people. one way in which i was able to help many students was through tutoring. but they did not need help in that way, they were top students. so we would talk about college s all the time. they would talk about people their parents knew and how important it was to have a

network, to have access to someone, if you could. and i was going to these conferences and speaking here and there, not as many as now, but for high school i was going to a number. and i did know people, and i did know some professors. i just very casually offered, i'm going to put you in touch with someone and see if i can help. that's how it began. i delivered on so much before that, that they expected me to follow through and i felt that pressure. there is no way for me to justify what happened with the emails, but what i ended up doing is i did not want to tell them, i actually don't know someone at the school specifically and i cannot tell this person something that will give you a leg up in the admissions process, i am sorry, i got carried away. i did not want to say that, i wanted to come through and deliver on my end.

i was also under some much pressure at the time, and that does not excuse it, but that was my mindset at the time. i thought, i can actually give this advice and try to be of help. so i forged emails, i created fake email accounts and sent emails to a few of my friends as though i were the professor and said, here are things to consider in the application process, here are ways to tweak the essay, things like that. and then it all backfired. it was interesting because it did not backfire right away, was a few months. i had stopped because i did not want to keep doing that anymore. i let the emails peter out, and we got to october of my senior year, and boom. it blows up. brian: what happened? zachary: i am called into the principal's office, he has the stack of papers and he says, did

you write these emails? and i am just open mouthed and floored. i don't know what to say, my dad is sitting in the room. and he looks just a nervous wreck. shellshocked. i am thinking to myself, i have to talk to my dad, i don't know what he knows, what is going on. extremely uncomfortable situation. i end up being given the option to either go before the conduct review board, which was interesting, because people at one point had told me to run for the conduct review board. go before the board and a few things can happen. i could get detentions, i could get a suspension, or possibly expulsion. there was another option that said you could withdraw on your own terms and go to another school and figure out a way of explaining this in your college applications in whatever way you want to. and so i took the option to withdraw and finished at an online high school.

brian: so you did not get a degree from the private school? zachary: i got a diploma, but not from that school. brian: where did you go after that? zachary: there was a place called excel high school online, i wanted to go to stanford's online high school, but it is legit, official, very competitive, you cannot just jump in in october and get a diploma. excel was affordable, it was cheaper than what my dad had to pay at bolus and it made the most sense. i had so much time, so i was reading so much. 6, 7, 8 hours a day. online high school was so easy, nothing like the private schools i had intended. -- attended since fourth grade. in my free time, i was reading about all kinds of things. i was so committed to bouncing back from that. that was a low point for me.

i said, i'm going to learn as much as i can and i'm going to do something over the summer that will be intellectually rewarding, that will me grow, and it will prepare me to go to williams and accomplish all these things i want to accomplish. brian: what were your grades at roper? i know you went to grosse pointe academy first, and to roper in detroit, but what were your grades coming out of roper? zachary: they were great. we did not really have a gpa, but we had an average, and mine was 96%, 97%. brian: what were your grades coming out of bolus? and in the online school? zachary: very similar. it was 96% average, around their. -- there. brian: how did you get into williams and did you try other colleges along the way? zachary: i had been in contact with admissions officers at williams and at harvard and a number of other schools, but i narrowed it down to those two. harvard because of every reason anyone would apply to harvard,

known as the best, the best name recognition, phenomenal scholars, phenomenal alumni, respected everywhere. williams because from the research i had done, i heard about this thing called tutorial courses students and one , two professor, and that seemed like the idyllic intellectual engagement i wanted to be part of. williams was compelling for what it offered concretely in terms of its education. harvard was compelling for all of the reasons you assume harvard would be compelling. williams was actually encouraging me to apply early decision. given the situation and that i really wanted to go to a great school, i thought about it and said, i think the market a great -- i will get a great education at williams and maybe a better undergraduate education at williams because the professors are focused on you, not just research or grad students or med students.

. also, the fact that williams was so interested in having me, i felt confident that if i applied early decision, things would work out. brian: how did you pay for your education at williams? brian: how did you pay for your education at williams? zachary: i got significant, very generous financial aid that covered, it is hard to give an exact percentage, but over 90% of the tuition. but it was still difficult to pay the remainder, again. so my dad is working three jobs, at one point for jobs, because -- four jobs, because later he gets a car and he starts doing uber on top of delivering papers and his 9-to-5 peered and i am -- on top of his 9-to-5. and i am working as well. brian: the impact of williams on your life? zachary: enormous in many ways. challenging. positive. challenging in very important ways.

i got to williams, i had always been very ambitious and driven, but i saw college as the next big step and i wanted to take things to another level and read more. i wanted to learn more. i wanted to explore ideas and perspectives i had not yet explored. i got to williams and i tried to pursue all of these things head-on, very hard charging. seeking out debates and conversations with professors, going to professors and reading things they had not assigned and asking if i could talk to them about it. williams had a major impact on me. there are a few professors in particular who were remarkable mentors and helped me through the process of really telling my own story. i talked to them about a number of my concerns and they helped me. brian: you said two things in

the book i want to ask you to explain. one is that you are a liberal democrat, and two, "before long i had shared with them my ambition to one day run for president." who were you sharing that ambition with? zachary: at some point, i had always been interested in public life, and by middle school, public service in particular. i was interested in people, people stories, how do you improve people's lives, and a what are things that would allow me to address a range of issues. i thought about academic, you can specialize and focus on one or two or three areas, and i wanted to address economic issues, social issues, public policy, environmental issues and i also wanted to be involved in the process of creating and advancing legislation, and to have a platform. and so politics made a lot of sense. i started considering it.

when i got to stanford, people would ask me, what do you want to do? and i said, you know, i think i want to run for president one day. and they all, the people i was sharing this with, my peers at stanford. other students in the same situation, the summer before their freshman year of college, who wanted to do more, learn more before that. the reaction was just, it bolstered my belief in that that was something i could pursue and should pursue, because everyone i talked to said, i think that is great. i can see you doing that. that meant a lot to me. from that point forward, i saw public service as something i was committed to, and a number of things i did moving forward. one lens was, how can this

prepare me for things i need to do in the future? brian: how much more you worried -- how much were you worried about what you put in this book that would come back to hot you if you ever ran for -- to haunt you if you ever ran for politics or president one day? zachary: certainly a consideration throughout. first, the baseline considerations are how does this impact my family? i have a sister. how will that impact her? how does it impact my mother, my father, other family members? next, how is it going to impact my future, what i want to do? the fact that once this is on the shelf, i no longer control who reads it or who sees it. there were so many considerations, hypotheticals i worked through in my head, and ultimately what i ended up doing was weighing the cost and benefits, the advantages and disadvantages, and i felt the advantages outweighed the disadvantages.

that's when i knew, this is something i feel confident doing. brian: have you seen any disadvantages since the book has been published? zachary: sure. brian: give me an example. zachary: my relationship with my mother. this has not helped my relationship with my mother. just in a very, in a way that might be obvious, especially if you read the book. she is not happy with what is in there. brian: did she see the book before you published it? zachary: she did. brian: did you change anything after she complained about what she read? zachary: i toned some things down a little bit. brian: can you give us an example? zachary: there were things she might have said and i put some of it instead of all of it, or considered, there were other examples of things that may have taken place and i said, let me be selective. why do i need three things if i

can just have one example that conveys the point? this is what would happen when she was angry. brian: i want to put on the screen some more of what your mother said, because this particular event in the book is different than some of the others. i will start reading it. "take it off, she commanded. bed.as lying back in her her expression was a challenge. i stood there. i said, take it off, she repeated. her face growing angry. mom, what are you talking about? you know exactly what i'm talking about. take it off. let me take a peek. i am your mother. if anyone should see it, it's me. i took off the towel. she stared at me from across the room. tilting her head. as if to get a good look. what is she talking about? i am not going to read the rest of it.

zachary: this is my eighth grade year. i just got out of the shower. she wants me to come into her room, i was walking out of the shower and had a towel around me. i was going to go upstairs to my room, put some clothes on. she calls me into the room and demands i remove the towel so she can see me naked. specifically so she can see my genitals. that is the scene i am describing, and the language she is using, the things she is saying -- i've never felt so uncomfortable. i think anyone would feel uncomfortable in that situation, but i've never felt so uncomfortable. and that experience, that situation, it made me really ask myself, if this is happening now, right after i started dating, i am growing up, becoming more independent, what

is next when i'm 16? and i get a license? what is down the line? i don't know, if you had asked me years before, i would not have anticipated that happening. my mom was always obsessed with masculinity, and that comes through in the book, so they are some ways in which this follows intuitively, but who would expect this to happen? so after that, i ended up really considering the need to remove myself from that situation. brian: who in your family did you tell this story to, or any of the stores about what your mother was saying? zachary: when it happened, no one. my dad it was not the kind of relationship we had, it was not one where i could say this is what happened last night. we did not have that kind of bond. i wish we did. there were times i tried to

foster it, to create it, i tried to say something to him and see if he would respond, you know what a mean? -- what i mean? he was not very consoling. i did not want my dad to think i could not handle things, so i said, you know what, i'm going to deal with it on my own. the only person who ended up knowing about that at that point, was the school psychologist. brian: what happened when you told the school psychologist? started saying, zack, that is abuse. that cannot be tolerated, no one deserves this. we have to figure out how to handle this, this cannot continue. that is what she said. brian: when did the child protective services people show up at your house, and what were the circumstances? zachary: that was after -- i had

only shared this with two people. one teacher and a school psychologist. and someone made the call. brian: one of the two of them? zachary: one of the two of them. brian: but you asked them not to. zachary: i asked the school psychologist directly. because i knew she might have a responsibility. i asked her before, can i trust this will not leave this room? i asked her because i understood that psychologists have an obligation. my teacher, i did not think about it at the time. brian: what happened when cbs -- cps showed up? zachary: i'm at the ymca outside detroit. my phone is face down on the ground, a little under the basketball hoop. i am dribbling the ball down the court and i had just taken a shot and i hear my phone started ringing.

and i dig it up and i see it as my mom, and for some reason, i just had a sense this was not going to be good. i don't know what it was. but i said, this is not going to be good. i answered the phone, she spoke, urt, butvery calm, c very calm. zachary, child protective services is here, please come home as soon as you can. i knew that tone in her voice. child protective services is here. i am asking myself, am i going to live to see the next day? really. that is what is going through my mind, am i going to live to see the next day? because if ever at any point she has a moment alone with me and i make it through whatever happens when i get home and talk to them, lord knows what she is going to do, that is what i'm thinking. so i get on my bike and i get

home as quickly as i can, and my mom puts on probably the best show i have ever seen. anyone would have thought she was an impeccable person. she was so classy, courteous, kind, generous, giving. do you want some lemonade? i really like your blouse. tell me about this. she was just so gregarious, you would have loved her. very affable. anyone would been completely fooled, you would have thought someone had no idea what they were doing in making this call, they had gotten the wrong person, they had heard the wrong story or have the wrong person, it doesn't make any sense. so they leave, and they say their line they have to say, we will continue looking into matters, but you could see the concern was wiped from their faces, this is an excellent mother doing the best you can

for his son. -- she can for her son. brian: what happened after all that? zachary: after that i am alone with my mother for a bit and that is a very intense moment i described in the book or she is -- where we are sitting there and she is just staring at me intently for what felt like 20 minutes, but probably only a couple of minutes. because they are continuing the investigation, legally they have to, i go and stay with my grandmother for the remainder of my eighth grade year. brian: her mother? zachary: that is her mother. yes. the end of my eighth grade year, we have about two weeks left. i am with my grandmother. this investigation continues and i have to do two other interviews with cps. forced to lie in one, decided to tell the truth in the next. it is this incredibly difficult time in my life.

brian: i want to jump back, this is about language. you are a writer. what do you think of being a writer? how important is it to you? zachary: it is very important. for me, is way of communicating -- it is a way of communicating with people, and way of communicating with a broader audience. i am someone who always has enjoyed and loved one-on-one conversations, and one thing i like about writing is it forces you to clarify what you want to say, what you want to to -- what you want to communicate. in way that is helpful for me personally and in terms of who i want to reach and what i want to convey. brian: the reason i ask is -- you can explain where this is in the book, i will read a little bit and we will put it on the screen.

brian: what does that mean? zachary: it is kind of a playful, intense, there is some camaraderie involved. brian: who was saying that? zachary: a friend of mine saying that to another friend of mine, saying he has a large forehead. brian: is he african-americans? is this among african-americans? zachary: just among my black friends. brian: you went on to say -- brian: what i'm going to ask you is that if a person's white saying that, what is the reaction and tell us about the difference. zachary: a good question.

that is something, with very few exceptions, only observed in circles of black men together. it is a way of interacting. in the book i described it, it is interesting what is going on, the dynamics. sometimes it is competitive, sometimes playful. you tend to do it with your friends. if one of our white peers came up and said something like that, to try to fit in or be part of the group, the chances are it would not be taken very well. brian: why not? zachary: because they are seen as an outsider, this is not something they are part of, this is something we do as friends, it is something we do together. it is almost like this is a black thing. it is a black thing. white people don't do this. that would be the perspective. there are some exceptions i have

seen in my life, when i played basketball in detroit at the ymca. many of the kids who were playing were from disadvantaged communities nearby, but there were some white guys who would come play too. and they would take part and they would take part in these battles back and forth, trying to diss each other and it was ok because they had grown up in the community. brian: you admit in your book to code switching. what is that? zachary: that means the way i am speaking with you right now, in order to survive and survive in a place like williams. and the surviving in southeast d.c. when i go home, the way i react and interact with someone has to be different. you say less, the way you carry yourself is different, the way

you speak is different. that is code switching. assessing a situation and recognizing what the codes of behavior are, what are the standards and norms, and trying to acclimate. brian: how much of this, not just with black folks, but white folks, code switching goes on, and is there a negative impact for people trying to get together? zachary: it can be complicated. i would say that people are doing it very often, people are trying to do it more often than they realize. i have seen a number of my white friends in a way that is very good-natured, they are trying to be friendly, they will approach a black friend of mine and say something they would not normally say to someone else. yo, what up? try to talk in a certain way. they are trying to code switch.

maybe not doing effectively, but trying to code switch. we generally as human beings want to relate to other people. we want to relate and we have a natural inclination to make that effort, i think that is what you are seeing. i find that to be harmless, it does not bother me. i think sometimes what code switching can do is, it is often understood as this is only a black thing, and that is an issue i have with it. people code switch when you talk to your friends or your parents, no matter what your background is. the way you talk to your grandmother is not the same way you talk to your girlfriend or your best friend or the way you talk to your teacher is going to be different from the way you talk to the people on your team, see what i mean? we are always code switching. the way you talk in an interview like this or a job interview is different from how you talk to your brother or sister.

you know what i mean? we are code switching all the time. when people portray code switching as something unique to black people, that is where i think there is a misunderstanding, that it is racially understood. brian: i'm going to show you a picture of a woman, i don't know how well you knew her, but she died this year and he said she -- and you said she was important to your life. who was she? zachary: she was like a third grandmother to me. she did so much for me. she had a heart of gold, one of the most giving, generous people i've ever known. when i was in my senior year of high school and i got accepted to a number of these summer programs at stanford, brown, georgetown, i did not have the money to go. but i really wanted to attend. locally the local news covered

-- luckily, the local news covered the story. brian: here in town? zachary: here in town. peggy saw the broadcast and reached out and said i will for the rest of the bill. ever since then, she was like a god mother and grandmother in one. we would talk three times a week just about life, how is school going, how are you liking williams, what is stanford like? whenever i needed anything, she was always there. brian: where did her money come from? zachary: peggy, some of it came from, from my understanding, her previous marriage. i believe some of it also came from things she had done earlier in her life, investments, she was a patron of the arts as well, a lot of her money was in assets. brian: on page 180, you talk about people you most admire.

martin luther king, frederick douglass, bill clinton, reginald wayne belts, you leases askari obama, and kobe bryant. why kobe bryant? zachary: because kobe bryant is like a cerebral assassin on the basketball court and he works incredibly hard. the one thing i admire about him more than anything is how hard he works. through his 20 year career, to be as dominant of a player as he was. this was a guy who watched animal planet just so he understood certain things about how to compete. this was someone who, you would hear crazy stories about how he was trying to shave a quarter of an inch off the soul of his shoe so he could turn around a little quicker on a fadeaway jump shot.

he altered his diet, it was his work ethic and the way he played the game. brian: cornell west, you say you are a huge fan of cornell west. tell the story about meeting him and reading the 22 books and red bull. zachary: cornell west, captivating figure. master communicator. i find out he's going to be speaking in d.c. at washington university and i want to see him speak. but i did not want to just see him speak, i wanted to see him speak and be prepared if there was any way to have an opportunity to have two minutes to talk to him. i said, i have read a lot of his books, i had already read a lot of his books. there were a few he had co-edited and other books i have not read yet. i said, i'm going to read it all over again so i know which questions i want to ask him the

most. so i embark on this crazy endeavor of trying to read 20-plus books in six days. i can't -- you know, i read pretty quickly and i love reading, but that is too much with schoolwork and ap courses. i'm not getting any sleep at all. i said to myself, i can push through it, i need to find a way to kick back this reflects, this natural reflex to fall asleep. i said, there's coffee, there's red bull, red bull is stronger. let's go the energy drink route. i thought by drinking two or three, it would have a greater effect, i had no idea that was not a smart thing to do.

i understand now the health risk involved. all of these stories associated with people having a monster and things like that. i basically fall out at my desk, and my sister runs upstairs. the details of this scene, it's something where i had to ask my dad, what did i look like when i walked in the room? because i only remember so much. i can remember drinking and feeling like i could not move, it was almost like sleep paralysis but i was not asleep. and he takes me to the hospital and they say, it is exhaustion combined with this and stress, and don't ever do this again. and my dad is not someone who gets angry easily, i can think of very few times i have seen him get very upset. he looks me in the eye, you cannot do this anymore. and i understood.

it was not a good idea. brian: what is your job at "the atlantic"? zachary: i'm an assistant editor and there is a new section called the idea section, a call -- it covers a range of things, foreign policy, politics. the things i am really interested in our education and -- in are education and inequality, specifically achievement gaps and disparities and how those things can be addressed. on the inequality end, looking at social mobility and economic opportunity. brian: we did not talk about much of your activity at williams or your uncomfortable learning effort you made there, so if people want to learn more, they will have to buy the book. our guest has been zachary wood, the title of the book is "uncensored: my life and uncomfortable conversations at the intersection of black and white america." we thank you very much. zachary: it has been a pleasure. ♪

>> for free transcripts or to give us your comments about this program, visit us at q&a.org. q&a programs are also available as c-span podcasts. ♪ tonight on c-span, former president barack obama, former secretary of state james baker, and presidential historian john meacham on leadership and public service. one of the things he -- youred as president

discover as president is the post-world war ii order that was by fdr and truman and eisenhower and george , that that's basic notion of liberal -- not liberal a partisan terms, but pluralistic liberal market based rule of law based democracy, and those sets of universal principles, democratic and republican leaders believed in those things. and that is the running thread basically from 1945 all the way

through reagan. there were certain ideas that, regardless of how it was viewed, whether this is far right or right, there were certain ideals that you assumed you had to follow. because that was part of american leadership in the world and it was part of what made us a great country. inse are now being contested part because of the fact that we do not have this common base of information. and i think the biggest challenge we are going to have over the next 10, 15, 20 years is to return to a civic conversation in which if i say this is a chair, we agree this is a chair. [laughter] entireer: the conversation with former president obama, former secretary of state james baker, and presidential historian jon meacham is on c-span tonight at

8:00 p.m. eastern. when the new congress takes office in january, it will have the youngest, most diverse freshman class in recent history. new congress, new leaders, watch it live on c-span, starting january 3. we are back with juan williams, the author of "what the hell do you have to lose? trumps war on civil rights." >> thank you. >> the title refers to comments president trump made during the 2016 campaign. let's listen to what he said. e said. rejection, horrible education, no housing, no homes, no ownership, crime at levels nobody has seen. you can go to war zones in countries we are fighting and it is safer than living in some of our later citth