and the house committee meets on federal funding to reopen the government for one year. the bill does not include money for homeland security and the border wall. c-span, where history unfolds daily. 1979, c-span was created as a public service by america's cable television companies and today, we continue to bring you unfiltered coverage of congress. , the white house, the spring court -- the supreme court, and public policy events in washington and around the country. c-span is brought you by your cable or satellite provider. >> "washington journal "washington journal up next, calls andyour comments. at 8:00 a.m. eastern, a preview of the week ahead in washington. january is national slavery and

human trafficking prevention .onth we talk to an organization combating human trafficking. "washington journal"washington . [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2019] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] house is set to vote on a package of legislations, but does not include president trump's request for the $5.7 billion for a border wall. close for the latest. -- itwashington journal" is "washington journal"" for january 22nd. for our first hour, we want to

get your thoughts on the criminal justice system and your thoughts. 202-748-8000, if you are experienced with the criminal justice system. all others, 202-748-8001. if you want to post on her facebook page, it is facebook.com/c-span. the southern poverty law center it is the u.s. with the largest prison population, adding collectively, 2.2 million people are behind bars and at the 1.9 million increase since 1972 legislatively, president trump signed a package of legislation known as the first reduced, which mandatory sentencing guidelines for drug sentencing, granted judges greater latitude and

makes retroactive the first sentencing act and places federal prisoners close to home. that is the legislative effort that took place on capitol hill that was signed into law. you will see other needed changes when it comes to the criminal justice system. you can let us know on 202-748-8000, and for all others, there is a line for you as well. spoke at the national conference here in washington, d.c., and here is what he said about criminal justice, regretting supporting the drug legislation of the 1980's and 1990's, expressing remorse over a bill over crack cocaine.

he stated he may not have always gotten things right when it came to criminal justice reform. here is joe biden from yesterday. reformedproud that i some prison population being reduced. kept inll the people prisons are in state prisons, not in federal prisons. that is where the overcrowding is coming in state prisons. gentlemen, we have to say to the states, no more. no more mandatory sentencing --mandatory sentences. enough is enough.

federally, we need tofederally,e all the disparity between crack and powdered cocaine. [applause] we need the legacy of better prisons. my daughter runs the criminal justice center and has been fighting for two years. delaware announced they are going to eliminate cash bail and the state of delaware. [laughter] host: according to the present policy initiative, the criminal justice system holds 3.1 million people. your thoughts on criminal justice reform in the changes that might be needed in jersey city, new jersey, we start out with edward. good morning. go ahead. caller: good morning, pedro. yes, i have experience with the

system. i was arrested more than one time of possession of marijuana in my state. i am very excited. message do they have for us about criminal justice reform? joe biden, an architect of the , just only interested in hearing what can we do to attack the harmful effects of the drug war? that is what we need to concentrate on, pedro. host: with that in mind, what changes do you think are needed? caller: for instance,, let harris and joe biden could talk about schedule one drug, removing the crime from scheduled one drugs and drug enforcement.

if they are not talking about drug enforcement, that is it. int: all right, joanne detroit, michigan, the line for others, go ahead. caller: i am calling because i was talking about a family member. not need to talk about charging a person for a crime that somebody else has done. host: what do you mean by that? is, if what i mean someone murdered somebody or something, and you had nothing to do with it, you should not be charged with the same thing. host: is that your experience or experience of one of your family members? caller: a family member. host: have you tried to get that corrected as far as him being

tried for crimes someone else did? caller: yes, we have tried to do something about that, but nothing seems to be getting done about it. host: from pennsylvania, timothy is up next on our line for others. we are talking about changes you might think are needed in the criminal justice system. good morning. caller: how are you doing today? host: fine, thank you. go ahead. caller: the thing i noticed is, you know, is how they enforce -- they enforce, guilty act, guilty mind. intent andook at the they are not following the spirit of the law. they are going to the letter. if you do something wrong, it doesn't matter if you have intent. take the hillary clinton thing. anybody else would have gotten arrested, but because of the intent part, which worked out for some people, but for other

people, it doesn't work out that well. they need to really look at that. fallnk a lot of people into that where law enforcement can go after the letter rather than the spirit of the law. you know? host: thank you, caller. when it comes to changing the criminal justice system, you can add yours to the conversation. if you are experienced with the criminal justice system, it is 202-748-8000. 202-748-8001 for all others and you can post on our social media. florida.to cecil in hello. caller: how are you doing, pedro? host: fine, thank you. -- younghe more that

people don't know the laws in their neighborhoods and after local precincts. , theyhe police come out don't know at the same time that they are not getting educated on what they should know about their rights. first of all, they are just scared to see the police. people don't know this stuff. and ite getting charged stays on the record. once they put more education for juvenile detention places, maybe and can slow adult crimes people going to prison because they don't have the money.

everybody is scared of the police. we are going to hit all of the citizens across the head and then figure it out later. that is not the way to do it. we need more police improvement to stop criminal activity. host: eugene is next in connecticut. good morning. caller: good morning. justice system, it is crazy, you know? it is designed not for us as black people's -- as black people. host: what changes do you think are needed? caller: first change is they need to take it -- we are still slays in this country. host: this is robert saying that training people for a day as

they leave jail, when someone ends up in jail, often the whole family suffers. mark from facebook says re-training police and have a more mentor programs for troubled teens. thinking to our facebook page, and also from our twitter feed. in virginia, damon is next. hello. caller: hey. stop -- theyeed to need to expunge your record and not make you a criminal for life . one mistake, you are a lifer. they need to give you your rights back once you have completed your time.

and let you be a regular civilian. host: while the people who spoke out on criminal justice and reform was, like harris. she is making a bid to become the president of the united states. during the course of her inversation, her interest criminal reform, here is what she had to say. >> there are a lot of things i did as a prosecutor that i am proud of. including the recognition that there are fundamental flaws in the criminal justice system. when i was district attorney, i created the first reentry program. this was a long time ago. at this point, this is the way that things are done in people understand that is how prosecutor should think about their work. let's understand if we are going to be smart with taxpayer dollars, let's get people out of

the system instead of cycling them through with the revolving door. there is work we have done around racial profiling and implicit and racial bias in the criminal justice system and law enforcement that needs to be addressed. one of my biggest regrets is that i have not had more time to do more. it is my intention to keep fighting for it. host: if you want to see her comments about her plans as she runs for president of the united states, you can go to c-span.org and see the total comments she made on a variety of issues. otherson our line for from new york. hello. caller: i realize the problem is systemic. i had a question. with a statistic, congressman , putting downyn

the money set aside for a program. host: i don't have those off the bad, but when it comes to reforms, what is needed besides that? is ar: like i said, it really bad issue. we need to try to change the mindset was a lot that is going on, and do our best from their. it is overwhelming. one step at a time, i would say. host: paul is in alabama. paul, good morning. caller: good morning. justice reform. there is a prison in new york called rikers island, and they have over 200 or so people who

cannot make bail, and they are in jail for six months to a year just because they cannot make bail. the other thing i would like to say is criminal justice reform. 12-year-old who was shot by a police officer. you have eric garner, yes sandra bland, you have a number of -- what they say is, well, we need to retrain these lease offices. you don't need to retrain the police officers. you need to charge them with a crime that they have done. somebody who racist,ly, i feel, is a how are you going to retrain somebody who is racist and to not commit racist crimes?

you take them out of the system. host: that was paul in alabama. the national section of the new york times takes a look at the inmate situation when it comes to california's situation. this is tim saying, california has been at the forefront of the nation's efforts to reduce massive incarceration to lower the population of severe overcrowding. getting rid of loss like the three strikes have left of theds of inmates out system and have historic lows not seen since the 1960's. the story adding, one of the most controversial changes in california was a law to end cash bail, initially accepted as a of holding step

pretrial defendants because they could not afford bail. givessts say the law judges more discretion before a trial, and they will use algorithms to determine if the defendant is a flight risk or could commit other crimes. discriminatorys of people of colored. jails. of for-profit says district should be accountable for every dollar. nextndria, virginia, your stop. in alexandria. hello. caller: good morning.

host: morning. caller: i have been a police officer since 1992. seen certain things and how they work from my perspective. when you talk about criminal justice reform, he needs to be done on all levels, trying to prevent people from getting into the system in the first place. there are a lot of issues that start with depriving people with education, good health care, clean water, all of those things are stressors in life that give people little hope. slavery does still exist. slaveryinvoluntary servitude is acceptable as a form of punishment, and when you house someone in prison, that is money. some people don't need to be released from prison, but some do. host: what is the difference

from people who need to be released and those who don't need to be released? caller: depending on the crime they committed. people hereptick of with ups with theft of packages. you don't need to go to jail for 12 years. a police officer and chicago who murdered that young man, he got less time because he was charged with second-degree murder as opposed to being charged on the account of aggravated battery which would've had a greater sentence. criminal justice reform as far as police are concerned starts with the hiring process. you cannot retrain somebody. you do not know what one is capable of until they are in the workplace.

you do not know what they will do until something happens. host: ok. there is a story in the washington post about some police departments when it comes to the use of body camera tinyams, saying that a portion of chicago ordered body cameras for police officers, they said that the device would promote officer safety and positive interaction from the public, but before a single incident could be reported, an -- anr argued the 20,000 official argued the $20,000 amount would not be worth it,

adding it would be expensive. politicians and community activists seized on body cameras as a way to restore public trust. droppingrtments are the body camera program. ted is next from north carolina. go ahead. caller: i just think one of the problems we have is social inequality, which leads to people having to steal or break laws to live sometimes. under the law,s, we have a total legal inequality. we have laws that are enforced differently depending on your social/economic abilities. i think sentencing inequality by

judges is a major factor. again, if you are rich, you get probation. if you are poor, you get sent to prison. those who go to prison, i agree with the comments from earlier, let's try rehabbing them. training them in real job so that when he gets out of prison, they will become a contributing member to society. i also strongly support mandatory sentencing for every law there is. let the judge be a referee in the courtroom to make sure that things are done legally, but let's make sure that everybody who violate a law gets the same penalty. i propose first, second, and third offense mandatory sentencing with the fourth being life in prison. host: ted, you are calling on the line for those who are experienced with the criminal justice system. if you don't mind, what is your experience? caller: when i was 17 years so,

i broke the law. i admitted it, i pled guilty to it, and i broke into houses. but the police closed 52 cases one i had only done the four. i went to prison. i did gets in prison, an education and came out and have become very successful. i got a second chance with a company who employed me and i worked my way up to an operations manager in the aerospace industry. host: ok, that is ted giving as his experience with the criminal justice system. it was during her speech at the the republican governor talked about criminal justice reform efforts, particularly those for employers and their role that they can play as a part of the reform. here are some of her thoughts. >> there are few things as

powerful as the joy of someone who got a second chance and found their purpose. it you talked to michael willoughby, you would see it. he completed an apprenticeship program in prison. michael prepared to be a computer programmer. committed -- he committed a serious crime. today, he is a store employee at a job he landed before leaving prison. he was offered a second chance, he took it, and he succeeded. the employers saw something in him and looked be on the rap sheet and found high quality employees for hard to fill jobs.

too often, employers overlook these workers because of the fear of lawsuits. let's take that off the table. our correctional system and parole board are the judge of whether an inmate is ready to be released. employers punishing for offered an offender a second chance. legislature on the to send me an bill that protects employers like frontier, who higher islands with criminal records -- iowans with criminal records. host: we go to terry in cleveland, texas, with experience with the criminal justice system. go ahead. caller: thank you. how are you doing this morning? host: i'm fine. go ahead. a governor'sd name, and richards, who implemented problems -- programs

that were helpful. elected,ident bush got i mean, when george bush got elected, he wiped out all of those programs. and now, the system is overcrowded, and those programs are being taken up by regular inmates, and the ones getting appointed to those programs can't get beds, so they are doing longer time in the system. so, the system -- the whole system to me is a sham. i think it needs to be overhauled because it is a sham, it is a money making scheme, all of these privatized prisons run by private corporations, and they are making laws and going around loss just to keep inmates -- and going around laws just to

keep inmates in. -- oncee get out, those we get out, those companies will not hire us. good morning. go ahead. caller: a right to a speedy trial, i spent many years in courtrooms, and when somebody has bail set on them, and they casein to have their heard, and it constantly gets lack ofd because of the facilities and personnel, so many times, i see people waiting because they cannot make the bail set by the judge, longer time they would have time they would have served if they were convicted of the charge against them. so, the right to a speedy trial is a problem, and you are going to have to pick up more

personnel and courtrooms. thereby, having these people charged with a crime, the ability to have their case adjudicated in a timely way. i have seen people charge with misdemeanors in jail for two years. waiting for their case to be heard, constantly adjourned because of the lack of facilities. and prosecuting agencies that pursue conviction cases instead of the truth. you have to re-examine the right to a speedy trial, which is a right. role if i could ask, what did you serve with the court? caller: i was a court officer for over 30 years in new york state in a number of jurisdictions. host: joe telling us his experience. we set aside a line with those with experience of the criminal

justice industry. we showed to the first step act that was passed by the senate and signed by the president. a polling insider asked people but they thought about the act of 16% approving of it. 32% said they strongly approve of the reforms and 29% said they somewhat approve, and only 8% said they strongly disapprove. 7% said they somewhat disapprove in nearly a quarter of those when it comes to the first step act said they did not know, approve, or disapprove. bill didtted that the have bipartisan support. eric in california, company, california. hello. caller: good morning.

thank you, c-span, forgiven us an opportunity to speak on this issue -- for giving us an opportunity to speak on this issue. change the way we look at this coming change the name of them. under the affordable care act, these people are entitled to health care, and therefore, even under the hospital system, once you put them into the hospital system, you can put them in a hospital indefinitely until the system finds you out. anything.based upon a lot of people in the criminal system are mental patients. 50% of the people in the system are mental patients. theou get them out of system, it cuts down on the court processing, costs, and everything. the second thing is stop holding people's pass over them.

people are showing up in the system because they have different past convictions that are being held against them, therefore, it prolongs the sentencing. stop holding people's pasts against them. ends do it correctly, it massive incarceration correctly. host: let's go to nicole in arizona, our line for others. caller: hi, good morning, how are you? host: hi, caller. go ahead. caller: my husband was an officer here in arizona for about 20 years. the things that need to change -- the laws that need to be changed. if you did the time, we are going to see you, we are going

to report you. calledoss -- they are laws for a reason. present -- prison is not about reform, it is about punishment. have them train better dogs. host: but when it comes to the reforms that were passed and signed by the president, what you think of those? caller: i think they are a joke. ok.: that is nicole and amazon. guy on twitter says, when it comes to reforms, penitentiaries are for profit and lawyers are expensive. ending allng saying private contracted prisons would be a good start. for the first half-hour, we

spent getting your thoughts on the criminal justice system and reforms that are needed. this was a theme we showed you earlier yesterday. you can add your thoughts on the changes that might be needed at 202-748-8000, for those of you who are experienced with the criminal justice system. all others, call 202-748-8001. the federal shutdown in the papers related to various aspects of it, including a planned testimony by steve mnuchin talking about aspects of the shutdown. that has changed. that in aeported letter, the treasury deputy says that instead of steve mnuchin, the department is offering testimony from irs officials who are most knowledgeable concerning the lapse in place. it was on wednesday that a letter was sent inviting mnuchin

to testify about the partial government shutdown, the impact on the treasury department. letterre, it says the stated it is considering the impact of the shutdown. the purpose of the hearing is to inform the government, and they are confident that there will be testimony of the deepest and the hearing.ts of the wall street journal takes a look at air travel during this time, still safe during the shutdown according to data. that the datang indicated that serious traffic control deviation, incidents of planes coming dangerously close

to each other on the air -- in the air and on the ground have remained flat compared to a year ago. ,he statistical summary covering the duration of the shutdown through the end of last week, showed a 4% overall drop of air control deviations. the last part of the story said staffing levels are certified -- or certified controllers at a 30 year low according to the union. according to the spokesperson, some in detroit are considering retiring earlier than planned. and air controllers with a -- thanollege debt are planned. blake in mississippi. go ahead. caller: i will give you a short, horrific story. this is my life. i am an army discharge world war i veteran. casinos.ton

i been a manager at walmart and various restaurants. after getting a divorce, i chose to go back home to my hometown of chicago, illinois to get my career in gaining. byade a mistake of walking in 1992 caravan with no engine and no tires. life caner met in my out of the grocery store. anyway, about 20 minutes later, i get arrested by some cops and brought back to the scene, which is totally illegal, identified as a person who amassed with this car, brought to the jail, given a bond with no evidence. no record. managed millions of

dollars. , but i't stolen a dime am going to mess with in 1992 caravan with no engine in it? host: what reforms do you think are needed? caller: pedro, please don't cut me off. i will tell you in a second. is thatorms is needed you have to be fair and have to have evidence. there was no evidence. me probation. after having to fight people in this jail, they gave me probation, and i headed reduced to mississippi, but i can no longer work in my profession, even though there was no evidence. we have no dna, no hairs, no fibers. how can you prove burglary

without any evidence? host: thank you for calling in and sharing that with our viewers. let's go to margaret in massachusetts. go ahead. caller: hi there. me?i relate an injustice to host: quickly, if you can. caller: my daughter went into a store and bought a plant. it was taking too long. three women in the backbeat the help out of her -- be the hell out of her. police officers through my daughter on the floor, all beat up by these three women. they threw her on her stomach and handcuffed her committee took her down to the jailhouse. i came in and said, where is my daughter? they said she is in the jailhouse. i went down there.

i had to go to every probation court in massachusetts. she will say to me now, which breaks my heart, mama, i could have been somebody. host: so with your experience, what changes do you think are needed? caller: i think that those police officers should not have their power they got. they remind me of the gestapo in germany in world war ii. they are a lot of nice ones, don't misunderstand me, but there are bad ones out there. , those threeiceman women have gone back to their own country. ,hey were illegal aliens illegal immigrants, and what do you think of that? host: let's go to jeff in new york. jeff, go ahead. foremost, i amnd

trying to run for president and will be launching a kickstarter campaign. the justice -- the criminal justice system is so -- host: jeff, we are having problems hearing you. i think jeff hung up. for the next 20 minutes, we have the opportunity to hear from you when it comes to reforms in the criminal justice system. you can let us know at 202-748-8000 if you are experienced with the criminal justice system. we have heard a couple of different perspectives this morning so far. all others, it is 202-748-8001. all that goes on when it comes to activity of the shutdown. the hill reporting as the house and senate sets to meet this week, saying they are heading in opposite directions as the shutdown crosses the one-month mark. lawmakers will take up plans to

reopen the government, neither of which has enough support to pass both chambers, and garner president trump's signature for the border fight. for $5.7dent asked billion to the wall in exchange for a three-year deal to protect the status for daca recipients. the president commenting on the efforts when it comes to reopening the government, adding a tweet this morning, democrats are playing politics with border security. david in kansas. hello, good morning. caller: good morning, pedro. yeah, pedro, i have a little experience with, a bad experience in oklahoma, but i was doing time with a guy. for have a lot in oklahoma

after convictions. it is a double jeopardy law where they can actually charge you with a same crime over and over again. if you get out, and you do your time, and you get off paper, and all of that, they can still come back and charges for that crime again. it is insane how they do this. but i was doing time with a guy that was doing life for not returning a video cassette tape. , in his happened was earlier years, he had done a crime, and armed robbery -- an armed robbery. did his time on that, got out, became a preacher, loaned a guy a video cassette tape he had branded, and the guy did not turn it back in. guy had already turned it

into the da. it was a misdemeanor crime, but because of former convictions, they actually charged him with his original crime over again, which is armed robbery and gave him the maxim sentence, 45 years plus 10. -- they give him the maximum sentence, 45 years plus 10 for not returning a video cassette tape. host: the key is next in --vicky is next in idaho. caller: hello. my experience with the justice with the mencently that were charge in connection -- that were charged with connection to the bundy even. it seems to me that the justice system is being used for political purpose. and the prosecutors really don't

have a rule set that they are ruleng with that is a fair set. they do whatever they want to do. they use their prosecutorial discretion to intimidate people. the process itself is the punishment. time top extending the -- it you know, you think wasn't me, it was a friend of mine, but you think they are going to spend years in jail before they ever even get to a trial. host: from what you saw firsthand, what changes do you think are needed? caller: i think the entire system needs to be reformed from top to bottom. be ank there needs to accountability process put into place for prosecutors.

i think there needs to be oversight for the judges. and i think it needs -- there needs to be a process, where prosecutors and the judges can be removed, other than, you know, trial by the senate, because that is too much of a process, it is too formal and too long public process. in idaho. is vicky with open a line for those with experience in the criminal justice system, and you can give your perspective at 202-748-8000 . all others, 202-748-8001. when it comes to criminal justice and crack cocaine penalties, that was a line of questioning facing william barr last week into separate hearings. this is part of his process of being president trump nominee to

have the -- president trump's nominee. here is what he had to say about that process. >> from my perspective, the draconian penalties for crack worked initially put into place because when the crack epidemic first hit, it was like nuclear weapons going off and the inner-city. i think you will recall, a lot of the community leaders were saying, this is killing us, you have to do something. the initial reaction of the draconian penalties was actually trying to help those communities, and overtime, and now, the same leaders are saying to us, this has been devastating generation after generation of our people are being and lost their lives because of this, and you have to change the policies, and i think we should listen to the same people we were listening to before. i supported generally strong

penalties on drugs because, not just crack, because i felt the money involved was so high that you needed something to counteract that. i also said repeatedly over the years about the drug war, i felt that the head of the snake was outside of the country. thishe place to fight aggressively is at the source more than on the street corner, and i used to say, we could stack of generation after generation of people and present, and it will still keep on coming. and so, i always felt, and i adjustment to the sentences and so forth. to me, the corollary is, we have to really start thinking, using all of our national forms of power in the sense of our diplomacy and our economic

leverage and so forth to get better results overseas. host: off our facebook feed, mike says among the many things he suggest, fair sentencing based on crime, not the colored of your skin. and community policing building of trust with the community they serve. and then jamie from facebook saying, when it comes to criminal justice reform efforts, equal justice for all. no one is above the law. glenn from massachusetts. go ahead. caller: to stop serial killers and mass murderers, possibly have a -- have you stay in jail if you kill one. person could be proven guilty, but if you kill

two or more, you get executed. thank you. host: from rachel and washington, d.c., go ahead. caller: yes. i want to say that the justice system needs to stop controlling us, and let us discipline our kids. in the justice system would not have so many in jail if we could correct our kids, but the government keeps saying we can do nothing, so we let them do what they want. host: that was rachel. president trump, yesterday during his acknowledgment of martin luther king day, a holiday from yesterday, said this is a part of a statement saying, we work tirelessly for the criminal justice system so for those that are paid their debt to society and is given a second chance at life. i was proud to sign that into law. inmates can successfully rejoin society and the criminal justice

fairer for all americans. providing programs and mental health care and nonviolent offenders can have a chance to fulfill a better destiny. the president and vice president heading to the martin luther king, junior joe memorial for a wreathlaying session. some of the comments spurred reaction from the osprey of dr. king. -- from the offspring of dr. king. the snow of dr. king criticizing -- the son of dr. king criticizing as president mike pence. i wonder what my father would be thinking with the comparison of mr. trump? martin luther king was a bridge builder and not a wall builder and would say love, not hate. from larry in chicago, illinois, go ahead. caller: have you doing, pedro?

what i would like to say is that the criminal justice system really needs to be reformed really badly because they have a lot of people who are locked up, incarcerated, who are nonviolent offenders. they hold these people in jail. ago, i was in the criminal justice system, and i was only a kid, like 17 years old, and they ran me through the system for no reason. then i wind up getting a whole complete, brand-new trial, and getting out. i agree with some of the calls of people about what they are saying about the system needing to be reformed. and they need to not hold your past record against you. if they hold your pass record against you, you will not be able to get a good job.

and another thing, if the judge hears a case on you, and they release you from i don't understand why they don't scrap that from the record. they still put that on your record as a felony. thank you, pedro. host: anthony is next for mississippi. go ahead. am a dude with the criminal justice system and had a workers compensation claim. they used it for 13 years to diverge me from going to workers comp. and the da and district attorney, and they would harass me and put me in jail. fallon on me, and the evidence they had was no evidence to commit a felony against me. i am still going through the process now.

host: from your experience, what changes do you think are needed? that the think worker's comp. happens -- worker's comp. needs to be separated, and if there is fraud, they need to show evidence of fraud for a claim that when you were injured on a job, they have the evidence before they can prosecute. and use that against you. host: ok. that is anthony for mississippi, giving us his perspective. police officer facebook -- lisa off facebook says the whole judicial system is a fraud. the judges favor those who get them elected and the people always lose. look at the havoc on family courts. that is one perspective. bill saying a much lighter sentence for nonviolent crimes, but much tougher sentences for violent crimes and no parole for any crimes committed with a gun.

from our line for all others, christopher in new york. caller: yes. martin luther king, jr. said all men are created equal, but i am seeing laws being broken on both sides. you have hillary clinton. all of us know she did it and she still walked. they need to be held accountable for the same laws. nobody is above the law. until they are held accountable, all of these laws they are making, they are not even held to them. how is that even right in any way? host: from arkansas, you are up next saying you have experienced the criminal justice system. go ahead. caller: good morning, and thanks for taking my call.

in regard to the justice system needing to be reformed. there is a young man that has been imprisoned there in arkansas for a life sentence for selling to an undercover officer. arkansas has spent over $400,000 keeping this man for a nonviolent charge on drugs. over 20ow been in jail some years serving life. host: so, what changes are needed, do you think? caller: to reform it period. host: starting with what? caller: pardon? host: starting with what? drugs, according to the as far as marijuana and crack,

not given over 10 years. this man has been imprisoned for over 20 some years. host: clyde is next in san antonio, our line for others. clyde, good morning, go ahead. caller: good morning, pedro, how are you? host: fine, thanks. caller: i think many changes need to be made in the criminal justice system, and i think it begins with the education of the citizens. and that has to begin somewhere around elementary and middle school because the criminal justice system is no better than the people who get into it and work within it. now, once a person gets enlightened in terms of having received a formal or informal education about human kind, they have to apply that within the system. host: give me a specific about

the education process that you think is needed? things well, you know, that have been taken out of school or were never instituted in schools to begin with, like the humanities, the social logical aspects of society -- the sociological aspects of society, what influences the abnormal behavior amongst people that become criminals, and the behavior amongst the people who institute the criminal justice the policeman, the judges. what are they working towards? the tendency, it seems to me, there exists a targeting of certain kinds of people. people in certain zip codes and in certain neighborhoods. and as a consequence, those people are the ones who end up in jail. host: let's hear from allen in

redding, california. you are up next. caller: good morning, sir. god bless, c-span and god bless america. i have a brief story i want to tell you. i volunteered to be a patrol, like neighborhood watch. my association asked for help. i was in the army with top-secret clearance, so i started a patrol in a neighborhood. down four ofe them. i have been doing it for six years. a reckless driver came through my neighborhood, and i followed him to his house and got his license plate. because heer spray was about to attack myself. he said i sprayed him. the local dj took me and for two

years, -- the local da took me and for two years, they finally processed and he illegal use of pepper spray. that man had 43 cases against him and two felony dui's. i appreciate the story, but what reforms are needed because of that? caller: what reforms? i am also a 2014 graduate, and reformedem needs to be from the ground floor to the federal level. host: that will be the last call on this topic. coming up, discussions on efforts to open -- reopen the federal government. we have two guests joining us for that to talk about the week ahead, but first, we want to show you from yesterday from martin luther king, junior joe, joe biden spoke at the white

supremacist rally in charlottesville and what it that years later, the hate cut your dad down is still nurtured by those forces of darkness. , asought in charlottesville clansmen and white supremacists literally, and neo-nazis, literally slunk out of their dark rooms, their digital crazed andtheir vicious faces, literally contorted. illuminated by torchlight. movieuld make a hollywood -- you could not make up a hollywood movie like that, and in a historic city, confronted by decent and honorable americans who said this is not us. welling knows those faces

-- new those faces well, those faces well, though same lost souls who wants stood like -- who once stood like cowards, hooded, bearing crosses. they have been deliberately reawakened. accident, they have been deliberately reawakened again. talk, directloose appeals to prejudice, to the alt-right. and something i never thought i would live to see again, having a president of the united states make a moral equivalence between those who are spreading the hate, and those opposing it. "very finee were people on both sides."

her -- sincehad at the civil war had ever uttered words like that. one thing we know for certain, we have learned it over and over again through history. through the holocaust and the civil rights movement, silence is complicity. silence is complicity. [applause] we have to do what you have been doing, what everyone in this room has been doing for a long time. we have to speak out. we have to challenge these forces of hate, to stand up and simply say what the vast majority of americans agree to. this is not our america. are.is not who we

this is not the image we wish to spread around the world, which is happening. this is not who we are, because it is not who we are. washington journal continues. host: a week ahead in washington and finding out what will happen when it comes to the shutdown, two guests are joining us, alexis simendinger and stephen here.are thank you for coming on this morning. we have heard this idea of two different tracks going down the road when it comes to efforts on reopening the government over the shutdown, what happens in the house and senate generally when it comes to this reopening effort? chambers are expected to take votes on substantially different plans to reopen the government. have a fairly noncontroversial bill to reopen. there are seven bills that did not get past last year.

those account for nine different departments and dozens of agencies. bills, six are relatively noncontroversial. they worked out most of the deals. the seventh is the homeland security bill, the house is going to vote on a package of putting those bills together with a little bit of money to increase border security at the ports of entry, adding more officers to screen incoming ongoing traffic,'s erling technology -- scanning technology, and an increased number of judges to hear immigration cases. the senate bill is more robust in terms of border security, and it includes president trump's a three year permanent legal extension written into law for dreamers that got here under the daca program and pit -- and temporary protected status and it includes the $5.7 billion he wants for a border wall.

immigrationanges in policy, one that would allow children in central america to apply for asylum from their home countries in exchange for those children who do not by -- apply could be quickly returned if they did not. a much more robust proposal, neither of them is winning a lot of support from the other party in the other chamber. proposalsthere are from dhaka and dp it just -- and dps, wire daca and democrats not supportive? went's great that stephen into this, but it was like the president is setting up this plan for his own base. even though he was castigated by conservatives on the right, he was looking for some sort of ground to stand on that he could

rally around and then proceed from there. i don't believe the white house anticipated that democrats were going to embrace the president's proposal, which has overnight been introduced as appropriations legislation. but the president was hoping he would have a firmer ground to stand on with republicans, saying we have a proposal. we have an idea about how we could try to meet you halfway. host: fair to say that democrats have campaigned on these issues in the past when it comes to the fate of daca recipients but nothing this time around. >> the democratic position to this point has been that they are willing to negotiate with the president over the wall and funding for immigration and border security in general, if the president were to reopen the quarter of the government that is still shut down and then negotiations would begin. the president's perspective is that i would lose all my leverage if i did that, why

would i do that? the other element is that even though democrats may have supportive elements of the legislation that was just described that has been bundled together, overnight you could see pro-immigration advocates, the democratic base, have reacted outspokenly about what they have seen overnight from the appropriations legislation. they are unhappy with some of the trade-offs, arguing that the president is actually trying to put into the legislation elements that democrats very strongly opposed. host: if the government were to reopen and negotiations would continue, are there it -- is there evidence negotiations would actually continue? guest: then negotiations would go on, is there evidence there would be a deal at the end? that is probably lacking. they are not substantially different, other than various iterations of proposals and meetings at the white house. we are not substantially justrent from december 21,

before we began the partial shutdown. it's amazing that we are a second month into this and we are still at this situation. host: and republicans holding on with the president on this shutdown, where are we on the house and senate? guest: house republicans have been fairly unified behind the president. the democrats have tried to break that through a bunch of different votes, and i think the most number of republicans that dissented from the republican position was maybe a dozen. .hat's fairly unified for them in the senate we have not seen any test votes because of the posture that mitch mcconnell has but the senate in and because of this deal he struck was senator schumer just going into the shutdown, which turns out to now be giving mcconnell some cover over why he is not putting these test votes on the floor. we don't know what the votes are in the senate, this vote coming

up this week will be our best sense for how republicans are, whether they are unified or -- complexnot, it's a proposal, and the legislation drawn out this week adding and the rest of the appropriations muddies whether this is a vote on immigration specifically. i have covered this issue for 20 years, it is a good-faith offer, democrats may dislike a lot of things and they have completely written a different bill, but the president is taking flack from his right flank because he embrace writing into law a tentative legal status were people who are in the country without authorization. an interesting step for the president today, the second time he has done that, he did something similar a year ago at the beginning of these discussions. i will be fascinated to see if he gets any democratic support. host: the phone lines are open,

if you want to ask questions about the shutdown you can also send us a tweet. >> one of the things that occurred to me, we were talking before we came on the set about the fallback position that the president had established early on in december. mick mulvaney, the current acting white house chief of staff, and also the budget of long standing for president trump just recently said the fallback position remains. the president could still nationalr -- declare a emergency, which is something he floated initially and retreated from. he argued that he had 100% support from his legal advisers that he could do that, there are complications for that. we were talking about what the complications might be. but the president has used that as a fallback pressure point. democrats have said bring it on mr. president, do it. reopen the government and declare a national emergency.

i will meet you in court. host: is there another plan b? >> there is no plan b other than the political pressure. one of the thing that's interesting about what stephen was talking about in terms of the president making an entreaty on immigration, something jared kushner's advisor had suggested as an opening to actual full-blown immigration reform. i think that's optimistic. but the president is also facing off against his conservative right flank, and got a lot of pushback based on this proposal that he put forward. many in his party have said this is interesting, this is the first time he has done and they are not happy about it and they are hoping it does not go anywhere. is there a fallback? the fallback is nearing, just a year ago the senate republicans and president trump were in a panic that the shutdown had gone on three days. we are very far past that. the other element is that

federal workers face another zero paycheck this friday if there is no action. it does not seem like there will be action this week. but that's also relating to the economic impact. host: wesley on the democrats line, from marilyn. hello. caller: thank you for taking my call. what i want to say to everyone that is listening, go to the library of congress, and ask to read the constitution that the roles of the supreme court, the president, and congress. theconstitution says that president cannot keep the government down after 30 days because if he does, that means he has committed treason. and it means he can be impeached because he is putting the country-- making the unsafe, and forcing people to work without pay, and making

federal workers suffer. host: is there any aspect of that? guest: what is interesting are the lawsuits going on over whether workers can be made to work without pay. there are some fascinating constitutional arguments over whether that constitutes slavery in violation of the 13th amendment to be made to work without pay. those are playing out in federal court houses, we will see what happens. right now the judges have said this seems like a political disagreement between the congress on the white house, and he was reluctant to get involved , but was intrigued by some of the other parts of this. federal workers, can they get a second job? there are restrictions on their main duties right now that would prevent them from getting a second job, a temporary job, all of these things, we have never been this deep into a shut down and we are in uncharted territory on legal issues and financial issues.

it is fascinating to watch. tsa, itth the focus on seems like that agency may be the one that pushes that forward. any prospect of that? >> it's interesting, we have heard lawmakers on the hill in both parties talk about a pressure point being air transit. that could economically and in terms of commerce for the business community be the pressure point that really pushes congress into action. we have seen the reporting so of workers who are being asked to work without pay, is seeing more and more calls in to be sick. workers are calling in sick. about 10% of the workers. that creates longer lines in airports, air transit slows down, and the commercial sector of our economy starts to worry. economist have started to worry about what the impact of that might be. as you can see as time goes on,

we have interviewed tsa workers who suggest they are actually looking for private-sector work. they are spending time looking for other jobs, and tsa is worried about that, losing its worker base. host: bill is next, from georgia. hello. caller: greetings. i think it's probably the president's fault for everything that is going on right now, it's all a big game to him. he doesn't have any idea what it is to be without food, clothes, a place to stay, or having to spend the night in a car in the freezing cold. the second point i want to make, why can't we pass a law that makes this whole government shut down saying it never happen again? that it's against the law to make the government shut down? that these people cannot be held hostage? why can't we get together and make it so that it is totally against the law and it could

never happen again? third, when are we going to be able to start holding our representatives in the senate and congress, and the president, responsible for lying and doing things that are against the law and getting away with it? when are we going to start prosecuting them instead of just giving them a slap on the wrist and say that's ok, just don't do it again. host: is their legislative work around there? guest: there are a number of bills and there are number people who put in legislation that would avert age shut down. one option would be to, even though the government would function, you don't write new contracts and whatnot, but you would make sure that workers who are doing work would get paid throughout. there is legislation right now that would make the coast guard, part of the department of homeland security but shares a dual role as a military branch, they are on duty without getting

paid. there's a bill to make sure that they will get paid during the shutdown like the rest of the military, whose funding was secured. those are issues where the legislation has been out there and pops up before, during, and after every shutdown. the problem is during a shut down things never pass. after shut down everyone says that was so bad let's never do it again, we don't need to worry about that legislation, and here we are six years after the last big shut and in the middle of it again and looking for that legislation that congress never passed. host: we saw the president meet with groups of congressional leaders and other members, the problem solvers caucus and the like. will those meetings continue? is there benefit for all sides involved? >> there will be future meetings i'm sure. the question as to what end. -- is to what end. one of the things lawmakers were concerned about on the

democratic side was that they were not persuaded that the president sat down to negotiate. that he sat down to do pr communication. one of the meetings was contentious enough that it lasted 14 minutes and the president departed the meeting. , therenot unprecedented were many points of friction with president obama and the republican lighthouse. he walked out of the meeting as well -- led house. he walked out of the meeting as well. one of the things the caller mentioned, polls indicate that the last caller is onto something. the president is getting the blame for this. even though it's up to congress to appropriate, if that is their job, the president is getting some of the public blame. there has been at least three recent polls that suggest that the president is losing ground with his base. the most important constituency to this president. as long as that continues to happen, i can predict there will

be future meetings. guest: here's how the elected senate touched on this earlier and how bad it is. --ocrats will not show up will show up for meetings but there's no point to negotiate until president trump agrees to reopen. if there isve seen, -- if we reopen the government then he loses his leverage. he would have lost all of his leverage for the rest of the year. so they are not even talking about the substance of the legislation that was laid out at the beginning. they are not even negotiating on those specifics, they are still talking about how to talk about how to approach the shutdown. it's a rough situation to be and if you're looking for a light at the end of the tunnel. the: this is barbara, on democrat line from washington state. hello. concerned, the

concern my husband and i have is the fact that this president is speaking just for the minority in this country. the minority that voted for him. he's not working for the majority, he and he doesn't even care about embracing the majority. until something along those lines changes, this is going to continue. is, ther part of it democrats gave him everything he wanted and he still said no. he cannot take a guess for an answer. that's all i have to say. host: stephen, you start. guest: i'm not sure how democrats gave him what he wanted, the last two years have been full of gridlock. he is sitting there looking at a senate that has stymied 200 of his nominations, 90 judicial nominations that had to be returned to the white house at the end of the last session. tax billking at his

without any democratic votes, he is looking at that saying what have i gotten out of them? most presidents get some leeway on their campaign promises and he has not gotten that. the democrats are looking at us and said you told us mexico would pay for it and we never want to border wall. so i'm not surprised we are seeing the gridlock. thatwant to say to barbara it's early there in washington state, good to you -- good for you for being up and awake. the other thing i was going to suggest is that the idea of governing to the base is one of the most interesting things, as somebody who is covering my fifth president, it's fascinating to watch. we are two years into the trump presidency and you highlighted something that is a key to what the president believes is his opportunity for reelection in 2020. he is presented himself as running again. and in this case, he is very

allied with his base. and as i was suggesting, this idea that he is starting to see erosion, especially among white non-college-educated men, which is starting to show up and polling. those who were supposedly the ones who would walk across glass for president trump, is going to get his attention. the idea of trying to find a in also to this 32 days suggests the president is facing something that i have seen other presidents face. divided government. it's new to this president, he is getting to know the crossman ship of speaker pelosi, he's trying to gauge -- the craftsmanship of speaker pelosi and he's trying to gauge where congress is now. and you can see it's taking him more time. host: how would you characterize the level of worry over this issue? -- theg the present

presidents in visors there is considerable worry, there was so -- advisors,ation there is considerable worry, there was so much improvisation that there was not a plan b or c. from what i have seen it takes some concept on how to get used to what this is. the president is interested in winning. in his view, winning is being able to tell his base, soon, not later, not after a court case, i got the money for the wall, the wall is being built. you can see the president has moved the goalpost repeatedly over the last five weeks. host: when it comes to mitch mcconnell, we saw that he really -- really was not present for the last couple weeks and now he is, are there worries about effects to his leadership? anyt: i've not heard conversation that he's in danger as the republican leader.

there has been questions about how onboard he is with the trump agenda and the trump approach to this. , probablych mcconnell on december 18 or so, stepped up to the microphone and said 0% chance of the government shutdown we will get this done in two days later the president said i'm not signing the bill that you and chuck schumer agreed to and sent us into a shutdown. the dissonance between that leadership in the senate and the white house has been very obvious at the beginning. that you now have mitch mcconnell agreeing to carry the president's proposal suggests that they are at least working hand-in-hand to move forward. and throughout the shutdown macconnell said he was not going to bring all the democratic bills to the floor, that he was looking for a deal that the president, schumer, and pelosi could agree to. he has stood back and been the ringleader as the negotiations are going on, which is classic mitch mcconnell. host: will this be a 60 vote

measure? we expectwill be, and mitch mcconnell will file closure, which is to set up the filibuster test boat -- test vote today, setting up a vote on thursday and that would be a 60 vote threshold. host: will beget the 60 votes? -- will we get the 60 votes? guest: i have not heard any senate democrats say they are on board. we heard that joe mansion was encouraged by the proposal in conversation, but that does not mean they will vote for it. and we don't know that all 53 republicans in the chamber will vote for it. we do not know what the thursday vote will look like. host: and that's a level of concern for the white house. >> absolutely. one of the things that senator mcconnell has made clear is that he wants to protect the members of his conference from putting themselves on record voting for something that they are going to regret later.

he is looking at the map in 2020 anti-understands politics of that. and he understands how mercurial the president can be. he had the rug pulled out from under him just a few weeks ago, and he is trying to the best of his ability make sure that he -- his congress is in sync with the president, and senator mcconnell is worried about that because the president changes his mind and is very conscious of the media coverage he's getting. host: alexis simendinger and stephen dinan joining us. on the republican line, jean you are up. caller: yes. curious, everyone is talking about the partial government shutdown, no one said anything when obama shipped those

trillions of dollars over the sea and i -- overseas and i lost my job because they had to cut back. and all i did was go out and find another job. alice, ins go to grand rapids, michigan. caller: thank you for taking my call. excuse me. answer aike someone to question that i have, wasn't it true that there was a law passed where there was only -- anchor babies were only for slaves that were brought over here, is that true or not true? guest: i think she's talking about the concept of birthright citizenship, which is the 14th amendment and extending citizenship to all persons born under the jurisdiction of the united states. , congress big issue thought it might deal with this last year, there was some impetus among president trump

and republicans to deal with birthright citizenship. there have been proposals for the last 20 or 30 years to try to tackle this, it's never gone very far. there are a lot of legal debates over what exactly the 14 the madman should cover and whether it would take the constitutional -- the 14th amendment should cover and weather would take a constitutional change. host: the president sending out a tweet, it reads without a wall , the country could never have a border or national security, with a powerful wall crime rates will go down over the united states. democrats know this and they want to have political games. this must be done correctly. dinan, you were looking at the concept of terrorism at the southern border, what did you find? conversationwas a over whether terrorists were crossing the southern border, the white house put out a number saying there were thousands of suspected terrorists who were

stopped by customs and border protection. those numbers, by and large, show by the ports of entry and airports where we flag people in no-fly lists if they try to come in and we turn them around. it turns out that far fewer people with terrorist connections actually are crossing the southwestern border. there are some. i have been covering that aspect and following a couple of different cases for the last five years. i wrote a story laying out the anatomy of one of those cases, an afghani man who came in in late 2015. he showed up on the terrace lost list,-- terrorist watch he crawled underneath the border fence in arizona. he came across as part of a smuggling network that smuggled him from his home country to brazil, up the spine of south america, through central america, through mexico, through the border, he paid somewhere

between $10,000 and $15,000 to be smuggled in along with five other men from afghanistan and pakistan. when he came across he was apprehended about three days heer because the foot guys had were incompetent and they wandered through the desert in arizona for three days before they were noticed by border patrol agents and apprehended. when they ran the fingerprints had hiscovered this man fingerprints on the no-fly list. he has family connections to the taliban. there was information that he had been connected to a plot. and i don't know more about that. but a plot somewhere in the u.s. or canada in years past. list, flag on the no-fly he had those past flags in his record, there's no indication that he was a terrorist. he had not been declared a terrorist, he was not convicted of terrorism, but he was flagged as a suspected terrorist.

it was a way of showing yes, there is a nexus for illegal immigration across the southwestern border, it's probably limited. one thing we know about the southwestern border is that we know what we don't know. we don't know how many illegal immigrants are crossing the border, we know the number of people -- we don't know how many people are crossing and so we do not know who they are or what their intentions are. the vast majority are coming to reunite with family, or coming for jobs. but there are some who may not be coming for those reasons. host: you will find that story in the washington times. alexis, for all of the talk of a border wall, is there a fleshed out plan for how this will come about should he get the money? >> there have been lots of plans in place for how the money could be utilized over time. how construction could take place. there is not necessarily an

agreement about the placement in every border state. stephenhe things that underscored that the president's detractors have pointed out, the president's story about the risk at the border is often exaggerated based on fact checking. and the kernel of truth is enough to get people's attention. but the president has escalated the narrative in such a way that he is actually closing off the debate in some fashion. , manyphen was suggesting people in the united states congress, regardless of party, would say one terrorist crossing the border is one too many. but when the president talked about 4000 and had to retreat from that number, you could see the argument is that he undercut his own narrative, whether it's about what is happening at the crime, airports, ports,

and the majority of undocumented -- it dashes there are suggestions that the largest number of undocumented immigrants are already here. detroit, on the democrats line. hello. caller: president trump, in the beginning said i take the responsibility for this. and now he wants to blame it on the democrats. if he took the responsibility why doesn't he accept it? the caller has underscored something the president had said about his leadership, he said i alone can fix this. he is on the record as saying that. and he had an interesting and contentious meeting with senior democrats and republicans from the house and senate in the oval

office in which he said i am proud to take the mantle, i will take this on. we remember seeing the incredible footage of this discussion, discussion is a nice word, with quote marks around it. and chuck schumer of new york just leapt on the president's eagerness to say i will take the mantle for this. the caller is correct in suggesting that the president has said i'm the kind of leader who is a terrific negotiator. i alone can fix it, immigration is the core of my approach to the base right now, domestic policy. and i'm happy to take the mantle of a shutdown. the caller is not wrong in suggesting that. many: the president, in ways, is the biggest enemy to his own agenda. let's take the wall. the president's position at this point is i do not take concrete wall, i'm willing to accept these steel flat designs that

the border patrol has been building for the last 10 years. i have been to yuma and southern arizona. i have seen it, it was built under president bush and president obama. democrats have voted in the last two years to fund that type of construction. but president trump, beginning in the campaign is saying a concrete wall across the border. and even more recently, after saying he would accept a steel fence, would a couple days later tweeted there will be some wall built, some concrete wall built. he continues to undermine his own negotiation and position. the border patrol will tell you that a concrete wall is not what they are looking for. even if the president said we should have this, the border patrol agent says the steel flat design we have now gives us the ability to see the other side with some enhancements it can be made fairly non-climb oval. it's difficult to breach,

nothing is impossible to do breach, and that the design we want. and democrats have voted for that type of funding for that construction but the president insisting no, there must be concrete walls, has undermined that position for the last two years. if he took a different approach on the mileage needed on the type of fencing and location needed, this conversation would have been a completely different place been -- would have been in a completely different place two years ago. host: terry, from illinois. hello. caller: i was talking -- to the gentleman just talking about it, we do need a wall. there have been five people murdered by three different illegal immigrants. lady, he is working for everybody, it's just that the fake news put out so much fake stuff that people don't know what that means. air traffic controllers, if it so important

to them and dangerous, why can't they pay their salaries? they know they could refund it. host: thanks caller. call,re is a lot in that good for you for watching c-span because there's no fake news here. but the other element is that has hadident reservations about embracing federal workers. i want to underscore something we may not of talked about, that's not unusual for a republican president. i have seen previous republik and presidents -- republican presidents who have been lessened busy astec than democratic presidents about embracing federal workers -- has been less than enthusiastic about embracing federal workers. republican presidents often argue for a smaller and less intrusive government. so president trump has

understood where the politics are of that. , thene thing he did do caller referenced backpay, the president understood that he was getting criticized for the idea that workers were being asked to return to work without pay. essential, but the government bureaucracy and the executive branch has decided to ask some of them to return to work. and they are working without compensation. when they get home on payday they get a check that says zero. the president has signed legislation, and the caller may be interested in this, has signed legislation that automatically guarantees them, whenever the shutdown ends, federal workers will get their backpay. it does not cover contractors. the president understood that he was getting dinged for that and he signed that legislation. and can i deal with the

first part of her question on we need a wall. i go to arizona more so than texas or california, i have spent a lot of time on the border in arizona. on one of my last trips i visited a rancher who has eight miles of the border on his ranch property. there is fencing that goes up to a point, and then there is a gap of about five miles on his property where there is no fencing. , and's a vehicle barrier he and i stepped back and forth acrostic, and the fencing -- a cross it. and he says the area down there is controlled by the drug smuggling cartels, they owned about 10 to 15 miles of u.s. property down there. they have spotters they leave on hilltops, they know the comings and goings of the border agents as well as the border patrol does and they direct how the smuggling traffic goes through.

that is a spot where a fence would probably help. you could probably point to gaps like that another places. the border patrol can point to those gaps where they are. the question is whether you need that along 1954 miles along the border. as of now, thanks to the president saying no, that's no longer needed, there are natural barriers in some places, the questioning is how much fencing -- hot that -- the question is how much fencing you need. nancy pelosi saying the walls are immorality probably does not hold up to a border patrol saying. but the issue is we don't have a good sense on how much is needed. i was on c-span about a week and a half ago for the newspapers program and we were interviewing bennie thompson, the homeland heurity commission, he said would support barriers but he has never seen a plan from the white house on how much they are looking for and to justify the locations where it is needed.

if they were to work on that plan you may come up with a situation where you could come up with how much fence and wall is needed but those conversations are not happening. host: many democrats on this program would also say technology would take care of these issues, what is your experience of this? guest: technology matters, i go for a lot of court cases for people caught crossing the border illegally, a lot are caught based on camera detection and ground sensors going off and aircraft being able to watch them come across. but you have to have -- agents will tell you you have to have the manpower to catch them once they come in. they also say that walls do a function, they funnel the traffic and make it more predictable. if you have 1954 miles of unprotected with no barrier they can come in across any of those points. and given that they know where they are going they can go around the border patrol. walls do not prevent that but

they do help siphon the traffic so it becomes more predictable and border patrol agents can be there on the others to get them. the entire issue at the border in terms of illegal crossings is can you catch them before they vanish? before they get to an interstate where they could get picked up by a car or before they disappear into these urban centers? the question is which location do walls help you control and funnel that flow so border patrol agent can respond quickly? host: let's hear from kim, in florida, on the democrats line. caller: i'm calling regarding a patrick is a , she isal engineer literally a wall expert. she is a court-appointed export -- expert on walls. she posted that it would be a disaster and that it's not a feasible project. it will mess with the ability to drain the land in the event of flash flooding, every -- even

impeding the ability of people to get where they need to go, it does not matter if there are holes in the wall or whatever it would dramatically increase the risk of flooding and messes with all kinds of stuff ecologically. -- main thing, the just gist, trump did not get an plan.er to lay a feasible he is talking about hiring construction workers and just doing it as if he were building a building. to theresented democrats, here is exactly what research,d did some there are a few things and i'll go. host: actually let's leave it there, we have just a little bit of time but go ahead. caller: -- recently, mike pompeo

was asked about the wall and i thought his answer was interesting. he said it is an important symbol to the president. in many ways that's exactly what the wall is. thata campaign promise represents something that exists in part, but as the caller said,ts and as steven has 2000 miles of wall is infeasible . it's not considered necessary by experts with in border protection expertise. and the president has shifted his position on exactly what is needed as stephen was rightly suggesting. so anyone that we interview in the media who are experts about whether it's a wall or the technology or even the economic to countries in

central america whose citizens are trying to come into the united states, it's a very broad picture. it's not just a wall, it's technology, economic support, and doing the humane thing for those who are trying to calm unaccompanied. -- to come unaccompanied. i thought secretary pompeo's decision to answer questions as to how important it was as a symbol, speaks loudly about the politics of what it is to make a campaign pledge and try to fulfill it. who will not be answering question is steve mnuchin, who was supposed to be questioned by the state department saying another representative will come, what do you think since the treasury department, through the irs, affect some people. >> we were waiting to see which was the first secretary who would show up, every single democrat that has wielded the gavel in the house is looking to have their secretary show up. bennie thompson is looking for the homeland secretary to show

up. there's a lot to talk about there. there is apparently an agreement between the judiciary committee to have the acting attorney general, whitaker, show up, even if he is no longer the attorney general by february 8 and talk about his tenure as the acting secretary. and the issues that have come up there. there is a lot of pushing there, and i imagine that like secretary mnuchin there are a lot of folks looking to push that off, particularly in the middle of a shut down because they will become the punching bags for this conversation. jenny, ons hear from the republican line in ohio. go ahead. caller: i have a question, was it gerald ford, the first president in office when the shutdown began and what was the reason behind the first government shut down? i would really like to know.

and say they go for four months, with the government help their -- help them keep their house? is there a law they could pass for that? about thenly tell you shutdowns i have covered, i want theay i covered the 90 -- 96 shut down which was in the middle of winter and 21 days long. i remember being on the white house driveway for days when we had speaker newt gingrich and there was an impasse with president bill clinton. that had to do with trying to balance the budget and a about what the democrats used to call isble m double, which medicare, medicaid, environment, and energy. now you know how old i am. the concept of trying to work backwards to help federal workers, that's an interesting question.

of ane gone into enough overtime, historically, for shut down, even with a quarter of the government that you can see the executive branch is struggling to figure out what kinds of support can be offered to federal workers. you can see a lot of that is being offered all over the government among different agencies and departments, the office of personnel management has made suggestions, the private sectors trying to reach out, unions are trying to support federal workers. i will give you an example that i think something people have overlooked. the president is concerned about border security, national intelligence, national security. at the same time we are seeing agencies and departments affected by the shutdown with workers whose jobs it is to ensure that national security, border security. we are seeing federal workers who are describing how they might lose -- even though

they're considered essential, they have to work. they might lose their security credentials if they get behind in their bills, if they are not able to pay their mortgage, if they are not paying their health insurance. be president is trying to taught by his advisors that there is a are -- that there are downstream effects that undermine his own ambitions. oft: what is the level pressure on nancy pelosi and chuck schumer? is there significant pressure to do something? >> i would say there is a minor pressure. there are some lawmakers who have come out and said i would vote for a plan that includes some border barrier money, but there's not -- there is some discomfort with the length of the shut down, but they are fairly comfortable with this position that there is no reason to negotiate until the government is a reopening --

reopened. they believe the president has taken the government hostage, release the hostages before we negotiate. president -- the way the shutdown began certainly helps feed democrats confidence on that position. they had a deal with mitch mcconnell to keep the government continuingn on a resolution in the president pulled the rug out from under them. they are not sure what to get with the president in terms of negotiation, which is why they are comfortable saying reopen the government and we can try to talk if we can figure out terms to talk with you and figure out that you will stick with what you will told us you are negotiating on. but we are not doing anything until we reopen. to round rock, texas, on the democrats line. hello? caller: hello. yes. tsa, i am a for

disabled vietnam veteran. he has to move in with me because his apartment complex stay and theyn will not move him out, but he has to pay $15 a day late fees because of this. tsa,ally loves working for but they leave him no choice. he will have to do something else. because i cannot afford to keep him and his wife here on the money that i'm making. i want to know what have they ?one to people like this with the apartment complexes and landlords when they want to charge people more money for something they have not done. thank you. example of areat real-world experience.

the office of personnel management anticipated that this would be a challenge as time went on. and they actually produced more than one federal memo to try to help federal workers navigate what they are dealing with. unfortunately, the memo suggested go talk to your mortgage holder or landlord and explain to them what is happening and ask for forbearance. of course what has happened in the private sector is exactly what this gentleman has suggested. were are many anecdotes those most vulnerable, or living paycheck-to-paycheck have found that going to your landlord or mortgage holder to say can you give me another month does not work in many communities. so a 30 today day shutdown with no end in sight is really -- a 32 day shut down with no end in sight is really injurious. guest: the white house is calculating how much of a dent

there will be in the economic growth figures when they are released next time around based on a shut down. for a president about to presumably begin a reelection campaign with his key item being i have solved the economy, if the numbers come out not looking very good and his excuse is the government shutdown and the democrats say the shutdown that you created by pulling the rug out from under us, it's going to be a tough sell. yes, you can calculate from the real world example to the broader economic impacts. paso, on the independent line. stephen, thank you for joining us. caller: can you hear me? democrats do not want to negotiate, speaker pelosi went to hawaii, wanted to go to europe, were not sure where she is today. could democrats replace below

see -- replace her. are the 800,000 government workers ok with democrats not debating? might they take revenge? since the president cares enough to stay in washington to make a proposal. host: we've not had a chance to talk about that, stephen, you start. guest: the democrats not being in washington during the holiday weekend, some of these other trips that have gotten some photo and video out there, not necessarily a good look for democrats. but not really breaking through. the president has certainly chided them for that, but the issue at this point is and whether they are in the same area negotiating, the issue is they are both approaching this from completely different standpoints about their goals. you need to open the government first? or do you want to have your leverage point? and the actual substance of the negotiations. they are so far apart right now.

>> the other thing i want to mention about travel, nancy pelosi was speaker before, i went back during the obama administration and i was looking at photographs and clippings of speaker pelosi's former tenure as speaker and where she had traveled. it is very common for any house speaker, including nancy pelosi, to travel abroad. especially at the beginning of her tenure during what was supposed to be a scheduled break. it's not that unusual weather it was speaker ryan, or speaker pelosi, to watch them travel during the break. the caller mentioned europe. that was supposed to be a first leg of a trip that was going to .fghanistan obviously it was a secure mission on a military transport that was not advertised. she was gonna go to brussels to talk to nato leaders first, and

her office explained that the reason that they were going to stop in brussels involved that the pilots were required to have a rest period before going on to afghanistan under the cloak of security. i do not want the caller to believe that nancy pelosi was traveling to europe for some reason other than her official representation as the speaker of the house. obviously a senior elected official in line to the presidency should something happen to the president and vice president. i say this regardless of party and i don't want the caller to think this was a fun getaway trip. work, ass of this stephen suggested, so prominent that what we did see was that the administration and the ,resident canceled his own trip which was to take place right now at the end of this week to

to the worlds economic forum. the president has enjoyed going to what is considered a very posh global meeting. and he decided not to go. then he decided to cancel the participation by everyone else in the delegation that he was going to send. it was supposed to be led by steven mnuchin, the secretary of the treasury. and so the u.s. does not have a delegation there this week. the democrats line, from new jersey. timer: today's the first with your lady guest that i heard someone mention the deeper cause. and i certainly feel for the 800 -- 800,000 federal employees, but there are also effects on people who are receiving snap,

and people getting paid later. know you may need to buy diapers for your baby today. i think the causes much greater then anyone is talking about. there are many more people affected than just the federal workers. and please, i'm not diminishing their suffering at all, but they are not the only one suffering. and i'm thinking and helping that if people understand the real cause, like how do you purchase diapers today when you might get paid five months from now. guest: some of the other ancillary costs that are affected by this, you have contractors, government contractrs with organizations themselves, since they were doing work for these agencies and departments that was shut down, those checks are

not going out. and in some instances the contractors have stopped work. even though federal employees might get paid at the end of this, there is no sense that contract workers will be getting pay at the end of the shutdown. there's a program called e-verify, this is also in the immigration context, sort of an irony. e-verify is the government's electronic program to allow businesses to check their workers to make sure they are legal workers. there are some states that require the use of e-verify, e-verify, because it's funded by congress on the department of homeland security, is shutdown right now. so there's a lot of questions for those businesses in states where it's required, what do we do? we cannot use e-verify but the law requires us to. a lot of different things that you don't normally think get the a lot of things that they are having to grapple with. right.he caller is so

we are talking about downstream effects, whether it is restaurants, cap drivers, childcare. the childcare is without the money they would have gotten from the clients that included federal workers. i am not just talking in washington. we are talking all over the country. we have seen in states president trump carried in 2016, many stories, many stories describing census workers, state department, all kinds of workers who are affected. the downstream effects of that in terms of the economy that relies on those federal workers. i don't know whether stephen has talked to lawmakers. initially, there were some republican lawmakers who told reporters i don't have federal workers in my district, so i don't care.

it doesn't affect me. it turns out there may be surprised how the shutdown ripples across the country. host: one thing you are looking out for this week? caller: -- guest: i am going to be watching the 2020 political race. all of us are interested in potentialow many democratic candidates are jumping into the pool. there is no way to get beyond the shutdown. is there any glimmer of movement? host: that is with senator harris entering the contest yesterday. has jumpedla harris in. she is the fourth woman from congress who has entered the presidential race. we will probably see more. it is considered historic and fascinating to watch. host: the one thing you will be watching for? guest: in addition to the shutdown, i will be looking at

what the senate republicans do, what is likely to be a test on the filibuster and possible attempts to change the rules and allow republicans to push through presidential nominees at a faster pace. it would not change the actual vote structure. there is growing sentiment that they need to do something to cut down on the 30 hours of debate that your viewers are familiar with. these 30 hours of debate that are allowed, but no debate ever goes on. republicans are looking to reduce that level of time to get more nominees through every week. dinan is aen reporter for the washington times, and alexis simendinger is a reporter for the help. it is open phones for the next hour. (202) 748-8000 for democrats.

(202) 748-8001 for republicans. (202) 748-8002 for independents. we will be right back. >> live, february 3, super bowl sunday, author and sports writer dave desiring is our guest on booktv. the author of many books, including a people's history of sports in the u.s., game over, how politics has turned the sports world o upside down. >> i love sports. that is what i think we need to fight for sports. we need to take sports back. we need to know our history. that is our greatest ammunition. we need to know our history of the athletes, the sportswriters,

and the fans that have stood up to the machine, if for no other reason then knowing this history allows us to look at this world and allows us to know every aspect of struggle. >> join us with your calls and questions. >> c-span, where history unfolds daily. created as aan was public service by america's cable television companies. we continue to bring you coverage of congress, the white house, the supreme court, and public policy events in washington, d.c., and around the country. c-span is brought to you by your

cable or satellite provider. in this open phones, there are several ways to reach us. you can post your thoughts on twitter. you can post on our facebook page. there are the phone lines. is our line for democrats. (202) 748-8001 for republicans. independents (202) 748-8002. it was in our last segment, you heard our guest reference sender kamala harris from california making her entry into the 2020 presidential field. announcement, posting her video. [video clip] decency, thetice, quality, freedom, democracy. these are not just words. they are the values we as americans cherish.

they are now on the line. the future of our country depends on you and millions of toers lifting our voices fight for our american values. that is why i am running for president of the united states. i am running to lift those voices, to bring our voices together. oakland on me in sunday, january 27, and join our campaign. let's do this together. let's claim our future for ourselves, for our children, and for our country. i will see you in oakland. ♪ intercept website has a post this morning saying a problem for kamala harris, can a prosecutor become a president in the age of black lives matter?

as attorney general of california, she criminalized truancy, making it a crime for kids to be late for school. she has overlooked the misconduct of her prosecutors and fought to uphold wrongfully secured convictions. appealed a federal judge holding that the death penalty was unconstitutional. she made a formal announcement, which you can see at c-span.org. go to our website. we will start with ron in montana. democrats line. go ahead. caller: good morning, pedro. this is my 30th year with you. god bless, c-span. i have a suggestion for the american people. be patient.

mueller do his job. watch when they do their job. it is to do rico. you are going to see trump and a in gotti's cell. host: larry is next from texas, republican line. go ahead. larry from texas, good morning. in charlotte,al north carolina, independent line. caller: great to talk to you. thank god for c-span. approachest trump some things in the common sense way, and the reality of it is the illegals, and they are illegal -- they are crossing the border illegally. they are bringing drugs and

different stuff. as an african american man, i feel the democratic party is the training african-americans by pushing for -- betraying african-americans by pushing for mexicans to come over and take jobs from african-american people and all american people. i think the wall would help that. i support the wall. it creates jobs for the country. some of it is common sense. i think the democrats need to stand down. a lot of this is falling on the democrats because they will not stand down and allowed him to do the common sense thing. host: let's go to alicia in texas, democrats line. caller: hello? host: you are on. go ahead. caller: i am so sorry. yes. i have more on the segment that

president -- when did our president become just another individual? he is the president of the united states. the united states is the leader of the free world. we need borders. all countries need borders so we can keep in check and stay in communication with each other about the things going on around the world. we need some kind of structure, otherwise we have to put boots on the ground. host: ok. alicia in texas when it comes to international military efforts around the world, afghanistan the focus of the story out of afghanistan saying the bombing and shooting attack that took left there by taliban scores of dead and wounded. at the same time, taliban

representatives were meeting with foreign diplomats in qatar, part of a u.s. initiated push to start peace talks. spokesmane taliban claimed its forces have killed 190 in the attack, talks in qatar would continue tuesday. the spokesman said the ongoing talks would focus on ending ongoing american occupation. although the groups battlefield targets are mostly afghan security forces, its diplomatic targets are mostly the u.s. bartio, out of cleveland, is next, republican line. you are on. got it. caller: yes. i had something to say. i don't know if you have seen the new york times last sunday. they had an interesting article.

headline of the article was the united states versus donald trump. i don'ty are saying is think he cares about the wall or the hundred thousand people. -- the 800,000 people. it is just about saving his own skin. if you want to get this right, you have to bring suit now. host: allison from west virginia, independent line. hi. allison in west virginia, hello? caller: hello. host: go ahead. caller: i agree with president trump. i think we need the wall. he is a good president, the best president we have ever had in a long time. i think we ought to get the wall. a second meeting between the u.s. and north korea, the

new york times this morning takes a look at the case for making vietnam the host of that summit. one is economic, saying the amount, a former enemy of south korea and the u.s. has joined the global economy and become a strategic ally and robust trading partner for both countries. oul's fourth se largest trading partner active u.s., china, and japan. normalized relationship in 1995. from 1995 to 2016, heady economic growth in vietnam. fore are other cases vietnam as a meeting place between the countries. you can find a story in the new york times this morning.

david in ohio, democrats line. caller: how are you? increase any security for espionage for some of these workers being without money, they might be hard up. anyg to the enemy to find places where there is lack of security or anything. host: patrick in kentucky is next. patrick from louisville. republican line. caller: i think you are missing several points on this government shutdown. -- hello?is host: you are on. caller: the president is only doing what he is obligated to do. he is to uphold the u.s. constitution.

the immigration laws and other laws in the u.s. are part of that constitution. if he did not do that, you would very much have the right to impeach him. he is doing what he is supposed to do. another thing on this government emergencys that the clause, president truman did the same thing in 1950 when the communist party in the u.s. was taking power. it's the same thing today. the communist party is taking control of the united states. as far as the shutdown itself is concerned, you are supportive of the president using a shutdown to achieve his goals? trillionith a $20 payment to people in the affirmative action program,

there is so much money involved in this. to -- you have to consider the powers to be. host: as far as the shutdown itself, is it something you approve of? know, that's aou hard question to answer. people -- it is just a hard question to answer. i don't know if i can answer that. host: why do you think it is a hard question to answer? i am curious. president is the is 300ying -- see, there million people in south america, 400 million people in south america. there is at least 10% or maybe 20% wants to come to the u.s.

you don't know who is coming in. it could be anybody. host: let's go to adam in washington, d.c. independent line. these guys are calling with ridiculous stats. come on. i want to respond to jamaal. we need to get rid of this narrative that spanish people were latino people -- or latino people are coming over here taking jobs. we already no most drugs come over here through legal borders. they are not taking jobs that african-american men want. it is in inside of the country issue that has been going on for over 100 years. it is not a mexican taking our job. you don't speak for any of us.

thank you, c-span. some of these guys need to do their fact checking. host: you made your point. about thehis morning movement to rectify the equal rights amendment. congress passed the equal rights amendment almost 47 years ago. to establish gender equality under the law, and state support is close to clearing a crucial obstacle. the virginia senate ratified the e.r.a. if the house follow suit, the commonwealth will become the 38 state to ratify the amendment. article two allows for amendments approved by two thirds of the house and senate and ratified by two thirds of states. the amendment congress passed in 1972 has expired. some states have rescinded their ratification. say congress has

to remove that expired ratification deadline to get it over the finish line. more on that available at the hill this morning. pat is next. democrats line. caller: these misdirected people, i want to address some things. the president is not doing what is prescribed by the constitution. the constitution provides for asylum-seekers. these people are not illegal aliens. they are seeking asylum. many of them do not qualify for asylum, but they are allowed to have a hearing. they are supposed to have a hearing by law about their status requesting asylum. about the wall, we have one. if you go on the internet and check, every possible place along the border has a barrier. they are not good.

there are barriers everywhere except mountains and rivers. we already have a wall. as the administration is talking about doing about protecting us, there are 5000 properties in texas alone that -- host: i think the caller hung up. sorry about that. bob in michigan, independent line. caller: i would like to take issue with joe biden's speech on martin luther king day that donald is the most racist president since the civil war. he is hamstrung. we don't know what is in his heart. he is hamstrung legally from being that person. i want to put up woodrow wilson. this guy was not only the biggest racist since andrew jackson, but he was a card-carrying klansman.

not only did he set back civil rights in this country for minorities, he said that human rights during world war i for 100 years. cannot be in that because of the legal framework now protecting civil rights. we don't know what he would do without that. let's get woodrow wilson in their. -- there. host: the former vice president spoke yesterday in washington, d.c. you can see remarks online at c-span.org. we spoke about small harris earlier. you can see her remarks on our website. caller: hi. i just wondered about the shutdown. everybody is blaming president trump, yet the congress failed provide theduty and

funding and an appropriation as part of the fiscal year. they sit around and want to keep doing these continuing resolutions, that way you cannot get any changes in what we are .oing or how we are doing it they don't want to do their job. why don't they want to do their job? if they can get in on that this bill together, they can hide omnibusgoodies -- an bill together, they can hide lots of goodies for their district and their friends. host: what do you think about the president using the shutdown to achieve his goal? caller: hello? aboutwhat do you think

the president using the shutdown to achieve his goal? uh, anytime they want to do it, that is fine. carolina, in north democrats line. caller: hello? host: you are on. caller: all right. the government shutdown of this president, it is iffy. at least if nancy and donald trump get together and talk about this, it seems like nancy, all she wants to do is talk to her people that elected her and the press. if the government laid off all of these people, most of them are still getting a check. only have to do is borrow the money and pay it back. the other ones that walked off s, they should take that money and build a wall with.

i believe it is on the right track. be -- myem it should solution would be did a moat along the border, take that dirt, and fill in the swamp in florida, and take the alligators from florida and put them in the mode. host: nancy pelosi speaking to the editors of the wall street journal. they write in part, if the dreamers are legalized on mr. trump's watch, the president will have accomplished what democrats did not. they helped scuttle george bush 's reform in bushe 2007, and barack obama resorted to in illegal executive order.

now that democrats have another chance with mr. trump, will they take it? withrump's leverage rises a supreme court victory. the real leverage is to use immigrants as ponds to deny mr. trump a victory. caller: where is mitch mcconnell in all of this? he has the keys to this will problem. they could actually override the veto. where is he in all this? several callers were talking about who is the worst racist president in history? are we really comparing, are we there were we are doing a comparison of who is the worst racist president we have had? where are we? thank you for your time. host: wisconsin, republican

line, diane. know how would like to we can get rid of pelosi. she has only been speaker of the house for a short time. is there any way to get rid of her? host: to what purpose? why would you want to get rid of her? caller: because she is not doing her job. host: that is diane in wisconsin. the new york times this morning takes a look at michael going from a different standpoint -- cohen from a different standpoint. sentenced --was cohen was sentenced, he had his choice of any prison campuses.

is ahis selection offers full-time pacific chaplin that oversees a dozen jewish inmates together for prayer services three times a day. near otishat sits will has a population of about 120 inmates, including drug prison with good records. many of them are doctors, lawyers, accountants, and businessmen who committed fraud. ken is next from ohio, republican line. caller: hi, pedro. i would like to make a comment. electoralmp won college by 303.

that is a substantial margin. he won based on securing america's borders, building the wall. they are after him because he is they are after him because he is trying to fulfill a campaign promise. his primary objective to the american citizen is to protect -- how can you protect america -- are you supportive of a shutdown to achieve these goals? caller: yes, i am. it is the only way -- the democrats do not want to work with him at all. they hate him. host: let's go to dawn.

don is the last call from california. calling to talk about the hebrew israelites who came to the white house and made all the commotion with the white kids. the word of god is coming out. doing wasl god was telling the truth about the word of god. nobody can stand the truth. that is why you always hang up on me every time i call talking about the truth of god, which is that the children of israel are the blacks, hispanics, native americans of israel. host: ok. you made that point. we are going to talk with bradley myles, who serves with a nonprofit group called pullers. country observes the

national slavery and human trafficking prevention month. that is coming up when "washington journal" continues. live, february 3, super bowl sunday, at noon, author and sports writer dave ziren is our guest on booktv, author of a people's history of sports in the u.s., came over: how politics has turned the sports world upside down, and jim brown last man standing. >> i love sports. we need to reclaim them. we need to take sports back. we need to know our history. that is our greatest ammunition in this fight. we need to know our history of the athletes, sports writers, and the fans who have stood up to the machines. knowing this history allows us to look at the world and see

struggles can affect every aspect of life in this system, even the ivory tower of sports. >> join our live conversation with dave ziren. 3, at noon, february eastern on booktv on c-span2. >> c-span, where history unfolds daily. created as aan was public service by america's cable television companies. today, we continue to bring you unfiltered coverage of congress, the white house, the supreme court, and public policy events in washington, d.c., and around the country. c-span has brought to you by your cable or satellite provider. "washington journal" continues. host: human trafficking, the topic of the last half-hour of

our program today. joining us is bradley myles, executive director and ceo of polaris. guest: good morning. ?ost: what is polaris guest: we run the national human trafficking hotline for the country, which is the 24/7 government hotline on this issue. host: how are you supported? guest: some government grants from the department of health and human services, institutional grants, and thousands of individual donors. we run on a $10 million budget. host: this month highlights human trafficking. why is that? guest: people realize this is something republicans and democrats can get behind. we realize people should not be forced to work against their will. people should not be forced into the sex trade against their will.

this is a way to highlight it and for society at large to use this month as a spike in building political will around this issue. host: when it comes to the practice itself, how common is it? guest: more common than people realize. anytime someone is forced to work against their will, any time an adult is in the sex trade against their will, anytime there is a minor in the commercial sex trade, we believe it is a $150 billion criminal enterprise around the world. host: how do you define it? guest: there was a criminal act that was reauthorized a few weeks ago that is the criminal definition for the country and fbi. children in commercial sex trade, adults in the sex trade that are thereby coercion or

force, and any adults in the labor industry by force or coercion. host: how does an individual end up in this practice? how does a usually happen? guest: we have to realize it is immigrants and u.s. citizens, not just immigrants. that is one of the major misconceptions. there is a huge population of u.s. citizen victims. be a u.s. child, runs away from home, is befriended by coercion,olence, pistol whipping to keep someone in the commercial sex trade. you have people violence against their domestic worker in home, foreign workers that came here on a commercial work visa, and had a violent boss.

there are so many subtypes that the common thread is the abuser is using force or coercion to keep someone working against their will. host: we're going to talk about this topic of human trafficking with our guest. if you want to ask him questions, you are free to call the phone lines, twitter, or facebook. bradley myles, the executive director of the polaris project. the business of stealing freedom for profit is one of the aspects of human trafficking. traffickers resort to fraud or violence. victims are like to, threatened, and manipulative. what makes it difficult for people in these industries to leave? is the sheer control the trafficker is utilizing.

the trafficker builds a web of lies. that is why the national hotline is so key. -3737-888.r is 1-888 there is also shame that is internalized. there is belief that it is your own fault. if the trafficker finds a way to brainwash you into believing it is your own fault, no one cares about you, if we as a society stand up for people who are vulnerable, we are taking the power away from traffickers to say that the people as we become a more caring and inclusive society. host: if someone is found to be a trafficker, what is the penalty? guest: 20 years or more. these are serious crimes, major crimes prosecuted by the fbi. usually major federal penalties out of federal court. all 50 states have human

trafficking loss that have passed over the past decade or so. these crimes are taken incredibly seriously. it is taken seriously and prosecuted strongly by the courts. host: is there a certain target when it comes to these sort of things? guest: we are constantly reminding the country that labor trafficking is bigger. sexonstantly gravitate to trafficking. that is where there is more media attention and law-enforcement attention. that ignores labor trafficking, which is farmworkers, domestic workers, construction workers, carnival workers, janitors, so many different types of trafficking we hear about on the national hotline. both are issues. those in thefor

industry itself, how do they get out of it? do they escape? how do those stories work? we have gotten over 10,000 calls from survivors directly to the national hotline where they signal they need help, and they take agency over the situation. other times it is a community advocate that steps in. sometimes the victim gets arrested as a criminal, and the court through investigation realizes they are a victim. there are multiple cap ways. sometimes it is a hotel worker, hospital worker, flight attendant. it is a law enforcement arrest, or a person calling the hotline, or a network of survivors finding a way to get someone out

in the first place. we have a lot of those modern-day underground railroad efforts happening. there are lots of ways we are seeing victims getting out. far too few get out. only 1% of victims are identified. in thesetill situations. host: bradley myles is the executive director and ceo of the pullers project. texas, independent line, go ahead. aller: i really want to thank mr. myles and c-span for publicizing this. every day, i get so many calls every week for somebody from breast cancer, right to life, which i support, but never have i gotten a call asking for support for human trafficking in the u.s. it is such a problem. i tried to be in advocate for the people to give talks, but the schools don't want to talk about this.

the churches don't want to hear about this. it is such an undercover subject. i realize how many of our children are raped repeatedly every single night. they cannot get out of it. the whole nation paid attention to jewel cross, and she was held for three months. it is wonderful she was found, but they don't pay any attention to all those children held by ed so often.rap find one, we -- don't give the name of the child. i wish it were on the news every night. thank you. guest: thanks. host: she says it is an uncovered issue. is that your experience? guest: i think things are getting better. she mentioned that schools don't want to hear about it. there are about four or five states where the schools are now

creating curriculums to train junior high and high school kids on human trafficking from a victim identification and prevention lens. we are seeing more churches on board. that is getting better. cases thate of the deserve major national attention are not getting as much attention. host: such as what? guest: for example, there is the case, a child from tennessee forced into the sex trade by a pimp. her buyers.one of she was sentenced to death. the governor just a few weeks ago granted her clemency after she served 16 years of her sentence. there are other cases that are not getting the same national attention.

we would like to see certain cases get more national attention when a child has been forced into the sex trade like that. how do we draw a circle wider over the cases we care about? it is not just the sex side. there is also the labor side. there are cases of janitors and homeworkers and carnival workers and construction workers. i think when people really learn about these cases, it will hit them hard. how is that happening a few miles from my house? i have to do something about that. the radical thank you for caring about this -- loretta, thank you for caring about this issue. caller: how are you doing today? guest: hey, jason. caller: i think the real issue is with congress and the laws. when you make something illegal, you create a black market.

to legalize prostitution, and i don't like using that word because it is like the oldest industry in the world, at least 2000 years. geis had it legalized with has. in las vegas, it is legal. where it is legal, you don't have too many issues. books,u have laws on the you take away the power from p imps and people to take advantage of people because you have a market for people to do things legitimate. host: thank you. guest: i think that is a big debate in the trafficking field about what to do about the sex trade and whether or not to legalize it. with that actually help? -- would that actually help? the people that are trying to legalize it are doing so for the intention of trying to make sure people in the sex trade are not

criminalized unnecessarily and coming at it from a good place. what we are worried about is that it actually makes things worse. amsterdam tried to legalize it. talk to the new mayor of amsterdam, and she says this is a debacle. it became overrun with organized crime. if you look at a number of it, thes that legalize number of guys that were looking to buy sex that were held back by the fact that it is illegal, the moment it is legal, you have millions of new buyers swarming into the market, nowhere near enough voluntary sellers in the market. new buyers,lions of the couple thousand sellers, someone has to fill that void. where are the victims from? more vulnerable countries from eastern europe and places brought into amsterdam.

we think it is an important debate. we don't want to criminalize the person being prostituted. that is the person that should get the most sympathy and respect and agency. we want to focus more on the pimps and johns. legalization may backfire and make it worse. that is what the field is still debating. the data is starting to show that it probably does make it worse. there is an interesting model in sweden and norway that just and france, the bifurcated legalization. the person selling sex is person buying pe sex is criminalized. thank you for taking my call.

when i was listening to the description, the demographics of the victim, it seems to me that it might point to the drug cartel, this idea of illegal immigration, people coming in and being herded. how do sanctuary cities and that effortssue hinder your to try to address the situation and help the victims? it seems to me that this is another argument for the boundary, the wall, whatever you want to call it, increased vigilance on a legal immigration. guest: thank you for the question. i think there are lots of people debating how to deal with this. one of the things i don't think is in the debate enough is how

often victims from other countries come to the u.s. on legitimate the so -- visas. let's say we have a legitimate workers, they fly into the u.s., and up at one of the major airports, start visa,g on that the -- then they are held in debt bondage. there are structural challenges with those visas. you are not allowed a lawyer. if you focus exclusively on the foot traffic coming across the border, a wall would block that foot traffic for example, you are not addressing the majority of the ways the victims get into the u.s., which is flying in on these legitimate visas.

i think the conversation is more complex than just looking at the southern border and what is coming over on foot. that does not take into account all the u.s. citizen victims who are victims of trafficking who are not immigrants. u.s. citizen case who grew up in abusive homes, are in foster care, get abused out of foster care. we have to talk about u.s. citizen victims and immigrants. when we only focus on immigrants, we have to make sure we talk about the foot traffic piece and flying in. the wall would not address the majority of the traffic that comes in, which is coming in on airplanes. i think people are trying to figure out how to deal with this because it is a complex issue. host: how are states dealing with the? guest: the states are laboratories. there are some governors that take this issue seriously. the texas governor for example. we have attorney general's

taking this seriously. we have seen innovative new state legislation. i think the states are this patchwork of laboratories. we are seeing amazing things. california passed this law that all teachers need to be trained on human trafficking in high school. that is an innovative new law. trafficking is a complex, dynamic thing. traffickers are not staying still and doing the same thing every day. every day, they wake up and figure out a new way to do the crime differently. we have to be dynamic and thinking. we have to figure out a way that this is a very elusive crime. the old ways we used to fight it are not going to cut it. from michigan.ra independent line. caller: i think this is, not a fascinating subject, but one that needs attention. i believe that donald trump wants a wall to prevent this

more than the drugs coming across the border. it is children. it is the people that are kidnapped and brought here under --ce in this expression under force, and this expression sex trafficking drives me crazy. it is another way washington uses words to soften what is going on. g?y don't they call it pimpin kidnapping? why do they find pulling names to call people? there have been movies made about this. called trade, where they take them, how they get them. host: thank you. caller: this crime is called lots of different things. onmany ways it is pimping the sex side. sometimes it is called forced

labor on the labor side. i think one of the most extreme ways to call it is rape for profit when you talk about the sex side. what is striking to me after working on this issue for 15 years is how much the country cares about this. high school kids care about this. churches care about this. there are so many champions in congress, presidents bush, obama, trump care about this. ast is why you see january human trafficking prevention month. when you go out in the community, there is a palpable passion on this issue in the u.s. we have a huge potential to leverage all of that passion and channel it into community awareness to look for more for theto volunteer nonprofits that work on this issue, donors network on this

issue. people can call congress and say we need to do more on this. you could even talk to corporations when you are about to buy a product. where does this come from? do you know where these were farmed? were there any slaves involved in this? i think supply chains and consumer action is key. i think businesses are stepping up. we have seen businesses engaged in this more than you have ever seen. there is a lot of attention in the field. i think people are really captivated with this issue. host: on the polaris website, there is a map. what are we looking at? a heat map of all the cases of human trafficking we have learned about from the national hotline. we learn about 30 new cases per day on the national hotline. what it shows is -- not to

mistake, that is not saying this is the total problems of trafficking. that is only where we have learned about it from hotline calls. if we're not getting enough calls for montana or colorado, it might be underreporting. that is 11,000 cases in one year. this is the tip of the iceberg. there's not a single community that is not affected. host: there is a concentration in the northeast and the south. also: i think that is showing problems. this is in all 50 states, much more common than we think. we need to shift our mindset from thinking this as novelty. of course it is happening like poverty andault and homelessness. this is baked into the fabric of

so many communities. when you see that, you see it everywhere. i just got my neostem. what was that? what was that? there is an awareness that as a dailyappen tha citizen. host: arizona, democrats line, robbie. go ahead. robbie from arizona. go ahead. caller: thank you for taking my call. i just want to tell the young man that i live in a small community. it happens all over. we recently had a chinese lady that had seven businesses in the city. they put her in jail. the judge let her out so she re of her kids in california. this segues on the judicial system.

we cannot be taking these people and then letting them go back and forth. this does not work. it does not show the right thing to the american public. host: thanks, caller. one thing i appreciate you highlighted is the rural community aspect of this. i think we miss a big part of the issue if we only focus on the big cities. certainly, it is happening in new york, l.a., houston, chicago. there is traffic happening in rural cities across the country, whether it is people in very localized sex trade, where there begins recruiting in rural areas and uses the allure of the big city as a recruitment pitch. we hear victims say we want to get out of the small town for a

couple weeks, and they don't realize they are going with a trafficker. we are saying this and rural america much more. there are thousands of survivors speaking out on this issue who are now survivors and advocates. survivors will say don't overlook the rural communities because that is a big mistake to not realize how much this is happening in rural communities. host: how did you get involved in the issue? caller: i got involved -- guest: i got involved fresh out of college. it was 2002, 16 years ago. i was initially drawn to work on the sex traffic side of it. it is.zed how huge it is truly violence against women turned into profit. i began working on it and researched the issue for a couple of years. polaris started in 2002. i joined them a couple years in. it is amazing to see how this issue has grown and how much

momentum there is. host: republican line, gina, good morning. hello. i want to know what this man is going to do about this as the casualty of businesses that have had business stolen from them. they employed an illegal using fraudulent documents. the people they employed were taken out of jobs. why all this nurturing of somebody that comes to this country, sprays teargas on our border patrol? pmen in mexico or wherever raise god and homeland security cursed, making an asylum set up. the lady from pennsylvania is making a way for them to seek asylum. the mothers down in these countries are sending their children on birth control pills.

just because they don't get pregnant doesn't mean they don't get a sexual transmitted disease. host: thank you. guest: i believe, i think one thing i would highlight that you said is that there are parts of the department of homeland security that are prioritizing this. we know that the federal government is coming up with a government wide national strategy to combat human trafficking. each of the departments are working on. you have ambassador john richmond, the trafficking investor for the u.s. the state department is coming up with a strategy. the department of homeland security is coming up with a strategy with secretary nielsen and others. you will see a strategy coming out of the federal government that we have not had before that is hopefully conference of, looks at all forms of the issue, is very victim centered, and works through the complexity. approaches current

need to evolve to realize that really up a wall or even cracking down on certain types of immigration are not actually going to completely solve this problem. it is still going to be here. it is going to be on legitimate s were on u.s. citizen victims. the department of homeland work on this.ing there are agents across the country dedicated to investigating these cases. on the national hotline, we have seen lots of cases get handed over to law enforcement that have come to an amazing result. there is some really good work being done, but there is also fieldisconceptions in the that are impeding us from getting to the next level.

host: give us the hotline. 8-3737-888. the text line is be free. the national hotline that we operate national hotline we opee takes text, phone calls, email and we even have an online chat function. i think text and calls are the most ways that people reach the hotline. calls are confidential and can be anonymous and the calls can be about all different types of trafficking. we encourage people to calls of we get a flood of information we can find more victims that way. and try to do good with it. director andcutive ceo of the polaris project.org. that's it for a program today, another addition comes your way tomorrow at 7:00. we will see you then. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2019] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] ♪

>> coming up in an hour here on c-span, auto safety advocates release rankings of the best and worst states when it comes to traffic safety laws and :00 a.m. eastern live on c-span and you can also watch live online at c-span.org and use the c-span radio app and at noon eastern the u.s. house of representatives gavels in the session. new sanctions on supporters of the syrian government and a measure preventing the u.s. from withdrawing from nato. a number of bills are being considered in fund the government and none of the cells contain funding for a border wall which president trump is

demanding in exchange for reopening the government. when the house comes at a session at noon eastern, live coverage here on c-span. in thethe first time state's history, iowa voters elected women to the u.s. house of representatives, boulder democrats in both defeated republican incumbents. congresswoman cindy -- sydney worked in a few state agencies under three i'll governors. she and her husband currently own a digital design firm in the des moines area. voters in iowa's first district younger -- second youngest member of congress. terms in the iowa house of representatives. illinois represented three new members, all democrats, two of which defeated republican incumbents. one is a biochemical engineer and businessman who was the ceo of to clean energy firms earlier in his career.

congresswoman lauren underwood now represents illinois 14th advisor of senior the u.s. department of health and human services during the obama administration and she also has masters degree in nursing in public health. and representative jesus garcia , has as by truly -- chuy long career going back to the mid 80's and previously served as a cook county commissioner as well as in the illinois state senate and on the chicago city council and was also the executive director of a local community development corporation. new congress, new leaders, watch it all on c-span. host: a week ahead in washington and finding out what will happen when it comes to the shutdown, two guests are joining us, alexis simendinger and stephen here.are thank you for coming on this morning. we have heard this idea of two different tracks going down th