ambassador to ukraine? was your problem? pres. trump: i heard very bad things about her. tour orknow if i recall if someone else recalled her, but i heard bad things about her for a long time. not good. thank you. i will see you all in florida. >> [indiscernible] announcer: president trump leaving for florida earlier

today, or he plans to sign an executive order on medicare. we will have live coverage on c-span starting at 1:10 eastern. we are joined by tom , he covered mike pence in the statehouse at indiana. for the associated press, fort cnn and the indianapolis -- cnn and the indianapolis star. what made you write a profile for the vice president? guest: i was standing outside the u.s. senate chamber right after the 2016 election, doing what we always do, shacking quotes firm senators, -- from senators, tracking them down before they run to the subway. i was looking at the marble bus. out of all the vice president, because they are the presiding officers of the chamber, i was

like mike pence is in history. marbleill be a chiseled bust of mike pence here. i have to go deep on this guy. i never understood him when i was covering him day-to-day. talking to other reporters, they said the same thing. i had to pull back, try to go deep and understand his faith in a real way. outside of the politics. and, that is why i did it. host: when did you start covering him? guest: 2011. host: he was governor? guest: he was running for governor. host: on the religious belief, you talk about that. it is named piety and power. you write that the answer to the question, which style of christianity and how that influences his policy is not as clean-cut as either progressives or conservatives would present. there are clues for his personal

and political life. why --s everything to do with what he stands so firmly beside donald trump. that is the piety part of this book. have his religious beliefs evolved over the years? guest: yes. this is something i noticed when i was talking with evangelical ministers, practitioners. he will talk -- he has talked about this occasionally, in 1978 is when he had the salvation experience. he was a freshman in college. what i found out in the research is that he does not lead the catholic church until 1994. that is when he starts going regularly to the greenwood community church. baptisthe southern style. it is not like that. they don't get into that style. it is a long conversion. to the viewers here, check out

-- i write about this in the book. this is really fascinating. he writes a senior thesis at hanover college in 1980. host: this is not a seminary. guest: is a presbyterian college. 1980, he votes for the evangelical in the race. jimmy carter. one month later, he submits a thesis to his professor. the religious expressions of abraham lincoln. it is already seven pages of great research on lincoln. lincoln isbout how struggling with his practice of faith and his feelings on organized religion and his own ambivalence and what it means for lincoln's political career going forward. and, when i read that, i get tingles right now thinking about it. trying tollege senior

figure out where he is in the inld and where he is politics. the thesis is him struggling public service and politics. it is incredible. host: tom lobianco is our guest. we are talking about piety and power. mike pence and the taking of the white house. we welcome your comments and calls. republicans, (202) 748-8002. .emocrats, (202) 748-8000 .ndependents, (202) 748-8002 one of the themes as he relies on his wife, karen, for influence and support. and for helping him decide things. how did that evolve? guest: they meet in 1983. at a church in indianapolis, directly across the street from the governor's mansion.

this is where karen grew up. they meet in the catholic church for they get married in the catholic church in 1985. 1986, he graduates from law school. teacher. elementary eventually becomes an art teacher. this is when you see a change in mike pence. this is when he becomes concerted about being active in politics. he joins for the indianapolis republican party. a is a footsoldier, basic organizer. he comes in on the political ground floor. when penn starts getting active jointitics, it is a career. they make decisions together. this is not terribly surprising. a lot of people's relationships are like this. herntimes, i should take into account.

[laughter] i get it. tos goes to, once we get this level, to vp and president, this level of politics, i felt this way as a reporter too. we get so cynical that we don't believe what we are seeing. the marriage is real. questionlways get this from democrats and other reporters sometimes, their marriage can't possibly be real. he refers to her as mother. it is real. it absolutely is real. but so is the ambition. so is the focus on that long-term path. that long-term trajectory. they do not believe they were predestined for the white house. but, here they are. they are going for it. these are joint decisions they are making together. host: one interesting insight is rose the roof.e and that faux antique red phone

is more powerful than anyone knows. this has been of feature during his governorship in indiana. that phone has one person on the other end. that is karen pence, right? moved toen they washington in 2000-2001, after he wins. the old congressman, republican, meets with him. is a freshman. he says mike, take some time for your family. you should have a line directly for your family. this,like some of us do you should do that. christmas of 2001, karen bought -- an antique red food phone. cherry-red. they run a line through there. it is old-school. her and the kids. their three children of the open woods -- only ones with the

phone number. governor and she was stationed at her office across the hall in the state house, she would make phone calls throughout the day to coordinate how they were handling. is new to the book. i had some in clint's of this -- inklings of this. that is how she works. that is that joint political career and power. did either mike pence or karen prince, were you able to interview either of them for the book? guest: no. they will not talk for profiles. they, there are a couple of answers. asber one, they don't see it their role to highlight themselves. servanta public

attitude that they talk about. the second layer of that is that , there are other books written about him and main profiles written about him. this is the official vp office policy. the other answer on this is that could be removed from the ticket in 2020. that is not locked in. trump says he is on there. everyone says that in public. we also know about what happens with trump's advisers that get too much spotlight. host: plenty of phone calls. what is his relationship like with donald trump? guest: warm but a little aloof. he is not close with donald trump. i read about this in the book and it is still true. stephen, he is an insurance magnet and they got close in the

90's. hilbert is responsible for donald trump's orange tan. he's the owner of australian gold. trump is using australian gold products. hilbert is the one who is close. donaldects pence with trump in june of 2016. they don't have a real relationship before that. it has been tepid ever since then. pence is absolutely loyal to donald trump, based on everything i know and have seen. you are never entirely sure if it runs the other way. if trump is completely loyal to him. we have calls. millsl go to carol in river, north carolina on the republican line. caller: you are talking about mind -- mike pence. how he is worried about the ukraine call and everything. cnn are talking about --

and somebody else getting in after trump. this whole thing is going to be like linton. if the senate -- clinton. if the senate does not impeach trump, he will not get impeached. that is what happened to bill clinton and that is what will happen here. i don't know why anybody is paying attention to this. it will always be something about trump and now pence. i think they should be left alone. more than two years of this is enough. thank you and have a great day. host: any thoughts? guest: yeah. i hear that a lot. sources,ard that from certainly my republican sources that this is continued effort to delegitimize the election. you know, the other side is that there is incredible concerns over what happened with that ukraine call. , based on theknow

credible washington post story included mike pence's top national security advisor. i think we are at the beginning of this thing. we have a lot to learn. we are 10 days into the official impeachment inquiry. host: president trump has gone through a lot of cabinet secretaries. what about the people that surround mike pence? are they long-term aids of his? guest: yes. absolutely. , wild,s an expansive chaotic universe. mike pence is tightly controlled. it is a very small circle. the current chief of staff came on -- host: for vice president pence. guest: yes. he came on in 2009. in his career, you see a big change in trajectory from 2008 through 2009 when they start getting serious about running for the white house. that is the team that is still

with him right now. those of the most important people. it very rarely changes. you don't see a lot of new entrances. host: let's hear from tom. caller: good. morning. i am no fan of vice president pence because i think he is an enabler. if he is that religious and takes the bible that literally, how can he not stand up to a man who is an admitted sex offender. we have that on the tape. hugh has lied -- who has lied repeatedly. if you look at the transcript of that tape, he is guilty of abuse of power. the vice president clearly wants to be president so badly that he will stand there, mute and not say anything and not do anything republican first and aspires to the office way before he is an american. go into the let you

story that tom lobianco brought up. this is the reporting of the washington post late yesterday. trump evolved -- involved pence in efforts to pressure the ukrainian president. tom lobianco. guest: yes. it is -- i think, and one thing i noticed is that the heicatures on both sides, is trying to push trump off the cliff? i don't see that happening. we have some historical evidence to back that up. in october of 2016, he had the opportunity to replace trump at the top of that ticket. he did not take that attempt. was that after the billy bush incident? guest: yes. to the callers point of pence i try not toler,

deal in absolutes because it is impossible to know. i try to point this out in the book. on the one hand, you there, placed by god, to keep everything on track.

look, also, this tracks with the secular version of this, which is you would hear from people occasionally about the adults in the room in the white house. that is how they view it. doesn't mean he agrees that people should cheat on their wives and pay hush money to point stars? s?te -- to porn star no. host: this is chris, independent line. wondering ifi am kids can be sucked into trump's orbit of lies, deception, and cheating our government? line you think there is a that vice president pence's character and experience would say, this is enough? guest: great question. i got that question a couple of days ago. there has to be someone. we have not seen the app because he is unflinchingly loyal to

trump. clearly, we have not crossed that line. host: you are covering him. have you had a chance to personally interview him? guest: yeah. you know what? i wish she would talk with us about him personally. i understand his position. one of my favorite interviews with him was about russell kirk, one of his favorite philosophers. he loves any books, but he would always go on vacation with a russell kirk book under his arm. for those of you who know who years, he is the founder of modern confers her to -- modern conservatism with the buckley's of the world. a little more academic. a little denser. certainly a conservative mind. one of his favorite looks is a tough read. you might want to go with the cliff notes on that one. but it is all-encompassing. partners, when they were at the think tank bank in the early 1990's, i love this point, he said russell kirk

would write that way on purpose to make it hard to get there because if you really wanted that information, you are going to have to cracked or a lot of density. host: let's go to atlanta. good morning to patrice on the democrat's line. caller: good morning. caller: i am really confused by the person you have on right now. there is no doubt about that, they will be impeached. how this could be compared to clinton' is impeachment about sex and how the publicans were from about that but don't care about extortion, i'm not really sure. at the end of the day, i just have a shout out to rich america, business america.

i get it, you want to trump in the white house because he moves money to the upper class, but at what price? think what is happening in mexico, all of the detention of kids being pulled away from the parents, at what point, with all the wars that will occur with the in north korea, the instability, at one point is there enough money if not enough? host: all right, patrice. guest: yeah, i understand where the caller is. a lot of people feel that way. i feel like when discovering the trump-russia investigation, that was a long investigation. it had many offshoots. it was very hard to understand. this ukraine investigation -- as a reporterng it feels like it is moving very fast.

will hence be removed with trump? pence be removed with trump, will he be impeached with trump? it is all moving very fast. host: he mentioned the vice president in terms of mike pence's conversations with the ukrainian president. here is a look. [video clip] pres. trump: impeachment for that? when you have a wonderful meeting or you have a wonderful phone conversation? that was theally, second conversation. i think you should ask for the first conversation also. i can't believe it. i heard there is a rumor out there that they want the first conversation. it was beautiful, just a perfect conversation. that i think you should do that. i think you should ask for vp pence's conversation because he had a couple of conversations, also. host: what do you suppose

president trump was trying to do there in terms of pointing reporters to ask mike pence about that? guest: to me, it looks like he is trying to wrap his arms around him and not let go. no, look, i have heard two interpretations. one is that the official pence- white house version of this is that there is nothing to see here, and if you go look at pence's tapes, you will find the same thing. i suspect if we did hear pen ce's tapes or saw his transcript, that probably would be true because he is the opposite of donald trump and terms of how he communicates -- in terms of how he communicates. politically, and this is based on my interviews after, he is bear hugging mike pence right now and not letting go. there is some fear behind them. quite a bit of fear. host: here is kay from pennsylvania on the republican line. caller: good morning. guest: morning.

caller: i am calling in response to vice president pence. i do believe he has had a positive influence on our president and the president's family have all contributed, if trump, ie, president believe, has gotten a little more in depth and what is going on. i do believe he is true and honest and trying to fight for our country. what appears to be under handedness, or whatever the democrats and other people are trying to put out, really, is not as great and people as they are making out. i do believe -- grave and evil as people are making out. i do believe i went to fact check things. if you go to the christian bible, the facts, check that out. that will determine our future.

faith, ourhout choice is simply going to be this, socialism, fascism, totalitarianism, and remember what khrushchev said, we will bury you from within. what did youianco, think of the influence from mike pence on president trump? guest: advisors that his faith is -- i have heard from advisors that his faith is rubbing off on donald trump. i would say donald trump's spontaneity has been rubbing off on mike pence. look, that is one argument for it, right? thatis part of the reason is a big argument for why mike pence is there. at the end of the 2016 election -- and this dynamic is still true now with 20/20 in and play -- you would hear people say, --

with 202 and play -- you would hear people say, if mike pence is there, i can make a play for donald trump. he will pull him back and make them accessible to a certain group of voters. it worked, clearly because they are in the white house. that would not have worked if newt gingrich were there. seems almost as active a tweeter. a very different tone, but if you look at it, mike pence is every bit as busy as president trump is on twitter. guest: yeah, the funny thing is -- i'm blinking right now on the exact many scandal that was a few weeks ago -- there are so many of them. but he adopted trump's tone and the response.it was really interesting. you don't always see him do that, but occasionally, he will , so he the all caps loves to do that, and you see

that in his career. host: in general, those tweets stay away from partisan attacks and -- guest: no, he does do partisan attacks. look, he has always done partisan attacks. previously, he was better about not being as accurate -- acrid about them. that was a hallmark of his political career. he would say, i am a conservative. i'm not angry about it. that was something i think they worried about as they decided whether or not to join trump. it is pretty hard not to stand next to trump. his old speech coach -- i'm on her nameblanking right now -- she watched the debate, the 2016, his nomination for vp at the convention, and she says she loved it. she was so proud of him. that he was such a great speaker

in grade school, but she really did not like when he started attacking hillary clinton. she felt like that is not the mike pence that she knew. i think you get this discord out of that. host: tom lobianco is our guest. his new book is "piety and power: mike pence and the taking of the white house." (202)-748-8001 for those of you on the republican line. democrat line is (202)-748-8000. and for independents and all others, (202)-748-8002. you brought it up in the comment you just made. let's have a brief look at vice president pence acceptance speech in cleveland 2016. [video clip] pence: as donald trump was taking my possible measure as a running mate, i did some observing myself. i have seen the way he deals with people who work for him at every level, and i have seen the way they feel about working for him.

now. be a little he can rough with politicians on the stage, and i will bet we see that again. but i have seen this good man up close. his outer lack of pretense. his respect for the people who work for him, and his devotion to his family. host: another call for tom lobianco. from california, police, go ahead. caller: that is -- elise, go ahead. caller: that is a laughable comment to listen to with mike pence. he does not know donald trump at all. everything he just said is a lie. he is not kind to people. he is very rude to people. probably the rudest president have ever had in the history of america. mike pence is a little too religious for me, and there are

a lot of right wing angelicals who are preaching every sunday that god sent donald trump to america, and that is pretty scary stuff, fellows. that is just pretty scary stuff. host: thanks for your call. tom lobianco, how does the religious community, in general, view mike pence's position as vice president, especially in efforts in terms of curbing abortion, religious freedom, and those issues? guest: let me step back here for a second. this is something i really have tried to do to understand where he is in the book. political reporters will talk about the christian rights as one block, and then more generally, we will talk about evangelical voters as one group. i really wanted to understand for this group, the faith, not just the politics. and there is quite a bit of lending of the two.

evangelicals are not one monolithic block. and didised catholic not know under -- and did not understand what it meant to be evangelical and to have that experience. i started going to a bible study as part of the research for this to feel it, just to understand it. it is not about mike pence or donald trump or anything, it is just about getting a better sense of the bible and where some of these feelings are in the practice. the more that i research this, the more it became clear to me that pence, and his personal faith and personal practice, is not part of that jerry follow world. he does not follow neatly into that world. he will talk with them, their policies will line up an awful lot, but, you know, that is not his style of practice. based on everything i can tell. waste on what his friends tony,

based on all my research -- based on his friends and what they told me, and all my research. host: a divinity student and harvard had an opinion piece in "the washington post" yesterday, dismissing how tom lobianco's power threatens to degrade people with faith everywhere. she says in particular an opinion piece, rather than provide facts that allow reader to draw their own conclusions, mr. lobianco attempts to highlight mr. pence's faith in relation to his political ambitions. this correlation dismisses the genuine importance of one's personal faith, and instead, insists that personal gain is the main reason for holding religious views at all. this creates a cultural conversation in the united states that undermines religious ofedom to sumter ability religious people to feel comfortable expressing their religious beliefs. guest: yeah, i guess i would disagree with how she put it. i hope she gets a chance to look at the book, and i would love to talk with her because here she

is, religious student at this incredible divinity school. she knows her father. she wrote a book about lessons from her father that came out about a year ago. obviously, she has incredible insight here. what she wrote was not misleading based on what i can tell. i found that it is not one or the other, it is not politics or faith, it is both. he is a human. and i tried to keep the book very focused on him. the book is about the cut and folds between the faith and ambition. , and i talkedy with more than 100 people for this, and i did take some exception to being referred to as lazy. i hope it is not lazy. i talked with a lot of people for this, and i struggled to find where the boundaries are, and to try to understand, ok, this is political, but this is

private faith. the trump campaign asked him to go speak in front of mega-churches and tell them especially to vote for donald trump. he said no. that is practice of his private faith. his ambition is real, too. i try to make this point, as well. both can be real. he is a human. and the contrast against each other and tug and pool, and they inform each other, as well. it is not cleanly one thing or the other. at least that is what i found in my reporting. host: on the independent line next, monroe, north carolina, a friend, good morning. caller: good morning. of c-span since back in the 1990's. let me give you a short background of myself. i'm an independent. i was raised by conservative parents. i am adjust with school student. school student. i had been a republican for 35 years, and i'm no longer a republican and i will tell you

why. i have been listening to this channel. has any real,nce true christian attributes. he is what we would consider, as real conservatives, to be a christian of convenience. that means when it is convenient to be a christian, then he is a christian. but when it is not convenient, he likes to maneuver, and, you know, reinterpret things so that he can, you know, be cool, the way donald trump is. he was picked because donald trump wanted to get the christian vote. that is the only reason. donald trump does not listen to a word that this man says brady does not care about a word he says. conservatives who go with trump are conservatives of convenience. there are no real true conservatives who go with donald trump. and there is a list of about 30 of them from when trump was running for election who spoke out and said, i am an never-trumper.

trueyou are a conservative, and you are a true christian, you have a conscience. and you go with your conscience. host: frank, appreciate the call. tom lobianco? guest: you know, this was after i finish the book and i was reporting for yahoo! news about how jared kushner and yvonne could were trying to get rid of mike pence and 202 and i should point out, that was fate, not real. trump andnka they were trying to get rid of mike pence on the 2020 ticket. which is not true, i need to point out. he came up with a great term for this, which is the difference between practitioners at evangelicals and sort of political operatives at evangelicals. he calls them the political operatives, he calls them transactional evangelicals. they are there for you when you

need them. they are tough. pence experienced this. in 2015 at the religious freedom battle at the indiana state house. that is when they abandon him. i think that stung him. he felt stung on both sides. i talked with one of his friends to understand why he plays to this role. you have to politically. politically you have to play to the christian right. is he the only politician that does that?of course not . i wanted to understand why. he said it might not be pence's style, but it's part of the game. i guess it is not surprising. it is not a sin. this is how politics works. host: let's look at some of the discussions on the religious freedom act. 2015. then governor pence with george stephanopoulos on abc.

[video] >> if a florist in indiana refuses to serve a gay couple at their wedding, is that legal now in indiana? >> george, this is where the debate has gone, with misinformation -- >> answer the question, sir. >> there has been shameless rhetoric about my state and this law and the contention all over the internet. people are trying to make it about one particular issue. now you are doing that as well. the issue here -- the religious freedom restoration act has been of the books more than 20 years. it does not apply, george, to disputes between individuals unless government action is involved. point of fact, in more than two decades the religious freedom restoration act has never been used to undermine antidiscrimination laws in this country. [talking over each other] >> a supporter of yours was talking about the bill. it was to protect a christian

florist against any kind of punishment. is that true or not? is tolerance are two-way street or not? host: tom lobianco, what was the fallout from that? guest: in that moment it basically ended his political career, at least it appeared to. that is how his folks responded to it. i remember that interview. for four years i've been puzzling over why did he melt down like that in a televised interview. this is one of his political superpowers. his caution, his message discipline. you never see that. my wife, we were watching that and she is not into politics. she is not a journalist. she is a noncombatant. she listened and said that was terrible. the fact of regular human being, not a political junkie heard that, wow, i need to understand

this. i have been trying for four years to get this. what made me understand it -- i had interview with an old friend from the 1980's. cardwell saw that pence was angry, emotionally angry going into this interview. he was angry at all the people on twitter and facebook trolling his family, making fun of them and making fun of his kids are having a bigoted father. he was very angry about that. host: personal anger. guest: i get it. he kind of went on with dad rage. that to me is the best expo as to why he melted down on stephanopoulos like that. host: bryson city, north carolina. kirby on the democrats line. caller: good morning. thanks for this conversation.

you sound more like an apologist for mike pence. pencey best to watch mike when he is on the stage with donald trump. more than ahing yes-man. i don't understand how the toleratepeople can someone like donald trump after watching his news conference yesterday. angrynds more like an pencer-old, and mike stands behind him. understand how the theer of the free world,

commander-in-chief of the most powerful nation in the world connect -- can act like that and use the language he does. know, early you reviews have come back from people saying it sounds like it is too easy on mike pence. some people say it is too hard on mike pence. i guess it is possible. i might have been too empathetic. i don't know. it is hard to tell when you are in the thicket. i'm trying to go into his world and report deeply in there and trying to let the anecdotes say what they say so we understand him. some people might interpret that different ways. booknk some of the earlier reviews that i cannot said you do a good job of trying to keep it in the middle. it is tough. he is a human.

these things are complex. politics devolves very often into caricatures. i think caricatures miss the mark. i think caricatures politically help him. i think those characters -- caricatures are good for him to give the christian right voter base with him. host: james in tallahassee, florida. caller: good morning. i'm just a little surprised it came so quickly. it seems to me since everything is going wrong with trump, impeachment, etc., nobody wants pence either. , nobody wants pence for president. that means it would be pelosi. she will just step down and schifft will take over and be president.

it's a concerted effort to take down pence. i was wondering how long it will take. pelosi will say she doesn't want it and turns it over to adam schiff. schiff would not be in line of succession. bill in lafayette, indiana. mike pence's home state on the republican line. caller: i had a question for the author. between a relationship mitch daniels and mike pence? they were governors back to back in indiana. is there still a connection? guest: great question. i covered a couple of governors my career, including mitch daniels of indiana. now president of purdue in west lafayette. when i was covering marilyn

politics i saw this dynamic with the democratic governors, william donald schaefer in paris when denny and martin o'malley. sometimes you will get a sibling rivalry intraparty. it is not always between the principles. it is not between mike pence and mitch daniels. they are very different people and don't really run in the same circles. they have a very different style of politics. it is between the staffs. between --ee it going further back, frank o'bannon. both democrats. there staffs whipping heads. you saw this with pence and daniels. pence lives in a different world politically then mitch daniels, but they get along fine. there is no animosity. there is not an especially close relationship either. host: how important was mike pence's radio career informing his political career?

-- in forming his clinical career? radio is where he really develops a good political antenna. it was not really like rush limbaugh. he was a call-in show. he would listen to people. five days a week, just like you. you listen to people calling in. over the years he developed a great antenna, a great sense of where people were. whenever they were having trouble getting people on the air and they wanted to light up the boards they would ask about what you think about bobby knight? he just threw a chair across the floor. should we fire him or is he the face of indiana basketball? he develops this great political antenna. to 2015. forward this is where heat starts to pick up as he's running for

reelection for governor. this is when he starts to get the sense that trump is a real thing. at the end of 2015, everyone else is laughing off trump. he's out there outside of indianapolis -- indianapolis is its own bubble. outside in the old manufacturing towns. that is where he feels that there are trump rumblings that he gets a sense i might need to get on board with this guy. host: a couple of comments on twitter. you can text us at (202) 748-8003. pence is just another hypothetical religious right winger. -- thep saw the lightest slightest advantage and dropping him as vp, he would. give us an example of pence's faith rubbing off on donald trump or an example of pence's faith. me theyis people tell will hold hands and pray occasionally before meetings.

trump has gotten ok with this. it was a little awkward at first but they do it now. he does actsfaith, of service. i'm trying to think back two years ago. he was washing down the vietnam war memorial. you see this. he goes out and will do these things. sometimes it stands in stark contrast to trump. pence doesn't mind getting down. i think it was one of the hurricanes back in 2017. he was lifting of tree limbs and coming down there and handing out food. it is not like trump who will toss a roll of paper towels. host: we saw the ceremony for the new joint chiefs of staff chair. we noticed in the video mike pence was with a man and a motorized wheelchair. mike pence helped the military officials get down and lift or move the chair and that ceremony.

let's hear from cindy in st. petersburg, florida on the democrats line. caller: good morning and thank you for taking my call. your book but it sounds look at could be a very good read. i do know trump never liked pence. trump always thought of pence as kind of a loser. think trumpy -- i had a poster named tony fabrizio who said pence is a good candidate because he is lifting your numbers with evangelical voters and the conservatives. manager --r campaign chairman paul manafort and the former rnc chairman reince priebus also pushed for pence. they had their reasons but the bottom line is it would help trump with the conservatives and evangelicals. that is the only reason pence is

there. it makes the ticket look a little more solid, a little more palatable. let me tell you this scandal going on right now with the impeachment and trump mentioning pence being on the phone call, trump will throw pence under the bus in a heartbeat. i can't wait to see that when that happens. that is all i have to say. thank you. host: tom lobianco? guest: to the last point it feels that way about trump throwing pence under the bus. it felt that way with the trump press conference where he talked about releasing the tapes, and some robbins of whether or not his people are behind this washington post story. host: the one that came out last night? guest: i'm sure the sources are impeccable. great reporting behind it. it feels like trump is wrapping his arms around pence and not

letting go. host: the headline of a story came out last week. pence seeks to dodge impeachment spotlight as the impeachment inquiry could test pence's role as a zelig-type figure. does he have that impression among people who cover the white house and the vice president? guest: where he is right now reminds me of what was happening with the trump-russia investigation. on the one hand you would have his folks say he's incredibly influential. he's keeping the country on track. he guides policy. you make him sound very important figure. when you ask about this stuff, oh, he doesn't know about it. he had nothing to do with it. i remember when the house democrats got a hold of the transition emails during the russia investigation. it was fascinating because pence was the director of the transition.

they could not find his name in any of them. he is a ghost. ashley parker, an incredible reporter wrote this big blockbuster story with greg miller and greg jaffe. they asked the question of mike pence a year and a half ago at the olympics. she said, mr. vice president, it seems like your people so you understand what is going on but often times you seem to be out of the loop. he started to get a little flushed, eight personal tell -- a personal tell. out of the loop could save him right now. not lift his image but it could be a salvation. host: richard import charlotte -- in port charlotte florida. caller: good morning. it is a pleasure to see a decent, honest author giving a portrayalue to life rather than the usual hate you get on the major networks.

i found the only decent news i can get is on the foxbusiness channel or cnbc business channel. businessman who had 25 employees on the verge of bankruptcy, trump came in. he freed up all kinds of rules and regulations to allow small business to flourish. defeating russia and the middle east with low gas prices. from a strictly business point of view, trump is doing everything right. i enjoy seeing an author on your show that is telling the truth for once. , what is, asianco vice president -- we talked about religious issues and policy issues.