stunning title called china's economic aggression. there was a huge policy fight with the bureaucrats, saying we can't say economic aggression. but when you read the report, you understand why. >> watch book tv every weekend on c-span2. we are joined by tom , he covered mike pence in the statehouse at indiana. for the associated press, fort cnn and the indianapolis -- cnn and the indianapolis star. what made you write a profile for the vice president? guest: i was standing outside the u.s. senate chamber right after the 2016 election, doing what we always do, shacking quotes firm senators, -- from

senators, tracking them down before they run to the subway. i was looking at the marble bus. out of all the vice president, because they are the presiding officers of the chamber, i was like mike pence is in history. marbleill be a chiseled bust of mike pence here. i have to go deep on this guy. i never understood him when i was covering him day-to-day. talking to other reporters, they said the same thing. i had to pull back, try to go deep and understand his faith in a real way. outside of the politics. and, that is why i did it. host: when did you start covering him? guest: 2011. host: he was governor? guest: he was running for governor. host: on the religious belief, you talk about that. it is named piety and power.

you write that the answer to the question, which style of christianity and how that influences his policy is not as clean-cut as either progressives or conservatives would present. there are clues for his personal and political life. why --s everything to do with what he stands so firmly beside donald trump. that is the piety part of this book. have his religious beliefs evolved over the years? guest: yes. this is something i noticed when i was talking with evangelical ministers, practitioners. he will talk -- he has talked about this occasionally, in 1978 is when he had the salvation experience. he was a freshman in college. what i found out in the research is that he does not lead the catholic church until 1994. that is when he starts going regularly to the greenwood community church.

baptisthe southern style. it is not like that. they don't get into that style. it is a long conversion. to the viewers here, check out -- i write about this in the book. this is really fascinating. he writes a senior thesis at hanover college in 1980. host: this is not a seminary. guest: is a presbyterian college. 1980, he votes for the evangelical in the race. jimmy carter. one month later, he submits a thesis to his professor. the religious expressions of abraham lincoln. it is already seven pages of great research on lincoln. lincoln isbout how

struggling with his practice of faith and his feelings on organized religion and his own ambivalence and what it means for lincoln's political career going forward. and, when i read that, i get tingles right now thinking about it. trying tollege senior figure out where he is in the inld and where he is politics. the thesis is him struggling public service and politics. it is incredible. host: tom lobianco is our guest. we are talking about piety and power. mike pence and the taking of the white house. we welcome your comments and calls. republicans, (202) 748-8002. .emocrats, (202) 748-8000 .ndependents, (202) 748-8002 one of the themes as he relies on his wife, karen, for

influence and support. and for helping him decide things. how did that evolve? guest: they meet in 1983. at a church in indianapolis, directly across the street from the governor's mansion. this is where karen grew up. they meet in the catholic church for they get married in the catholic church in 1985. 1986, he graduates from law school. teacher. elementary eventually becomes an art teacher. this is when you see a change in mike pence. this is when he becomes concerted about being active in politics. he joins for the indianapolis republican party. a is a footsoldier, basic organizer. he comes in on the political ground floor. when penn starts getting active jointitics, it is a

career. they make decisions together. this is not terribly surprising. a lot of people's relationships are like this. herntimes, i should take into account. [laughter] i get it. tos goes to, once we get this level, to vp and president, this level of politics, i felt this way as a reporter too. we get so cynical that we don't believe what we are seeing. the marriage is real. questionlways get this from democrats and other reporters sometimes, their marriage can't possibly be real. he refers to her as mother. it is real. it absolutely is real. but so is the ambition. so is the focus on that long-term path. that long-term trajectory. they do not believe they were

predestined for the white house. but, here they are. they are going for it. these are joint decisions they are making together. host: one interesting insight is rose the roof.e and that faux antique red phone is more powerful than anyone knows. this has been of feature during his governorship in indiana. that phone has one person on the other end. that is karen pence, right? moved toen they washington in 2000-2001, after he wins. the old congressman, republican, meets with him. is a freshman. he says mike, take some time for your family. you should have a line directly for your family. this,like some of us do you should do that. christmas of 2001, karen bought

-- an antique red food phone. cherry-red. they run a line through there. it is old-school. her and the kids. their three children of the open woods -- only ones with the phone number. governor and she was stationed at her office across the hall in the state house, she would make phone calls throughout the day to coordinate how they were handling. is new to the book. i had some in clint's of this -- inklings of this. that is how she works. that is that joint political career and power. did either mike pence or karen prince, were you able to interview either of them for the

book? guest: no. they will not talk for profiles. they, there are a couple of answers. asber one, they don't see it their role to highlight themselves. servanta public attitude that they talk about. the second layer of that is that , there are other books written about him and main profiles written about him. this is the official vp office policy. the other answer on this is that could be removed from the ticket in 2020. that is not locked in. trump says he is on there. everyone says that in public. we also know about what happens with trump's advisers that get too much spotlight. host: plenty of phone calls. what is his relationship like with donald trump? guest: warm but a little aloof.

he is not close with donald trump. i read about this in the book and it is still true. stephen, he is an insurance magnet and they got close in the 90's. hilbert is responsible for donald trump's orange tan. he's the owner of australian gold. trump is using australian gold products. hilbert is the one who is close. donaldects pence with trump in june of 2016. they don't have a real relationship before that. it has been tepid ever since then. pence is absolutely loyal to donald trump, based on everything i know and have seen. you are never entirely sure if it runs the other way. if trump is completely loyal to him. we have calls. millsl go to carol in

river, north carolina on the republican line. caller: you are talking about mind -- mike pence. how he is worried about the ukraine call and everything. cnn are talking about -- and somebody else getting in after trump. this whole thing is going to be like linton. if the senate -- clinton. if the senate does not impeach trump, he will not get impeached. that is what happened to bill clinton and that is what will happen here. i don't know why anybody is paying attention to this. it will always be something about trump and now pence. i think they should be left alone. more than two years of this is enough. thank you and have a great day. host: any thoughts? guest: yeah. i hear that a lot. sources,ard that from

certainly my republican sources that this is continued effort to delegitimize the election. you know, the other side is that there is incredible concerns over what happened with that ukraine call. , based on theknow credible washington post story included mike pence's top national security advisor. i think we are at the beginning of this thing. we have a lot to learn. we are 10 days into the official impeachment inquiry. host: president trump has gone through a lot of cabinet secretaries. what about the people that surround mike pence? are they long-term aids of his? guest: yes. absolutely. , wild,s an expansive chaotic universe. mike pence is tightly controlled. it is a very small circle. the current chief of staff came on -- host: for vice president pence.

guest: yes. he came on in 2009. in his career, you see a big change in trajectory from 2008 through 2009 when they start getting serious about running for the white house. that is the team that is still with him right now. those of the most important people. it very rarely changes. you don't see a lot of new entrances. host: let's hear from tom. caller: good. morning. i am no fan of vice president pence because i think he is an enabler. if he is that religious and takes the bible that literally, how can he not stand up to a man who is an admitted sex offender. we have that on the tape. hugh has lied -- who has lied repeatedly. if you look at the transcript of that tape, he is guilty of abuse of power.

the vice president clearly wants to be president so badly that he will stand there, mute and not say anything and not do anything republican first and aspires to the office way before he is an american. go into the let you story that tom lobianco brought up. this is the reporting of the washington post late yesterday. trump evolved -- involved pence in efforts to pressure the ukrainian president. tom lobianco. guest: yes. it is -- i think, and one thing i noticed is that the heicatures on both sides, is trying to push trump off the cliff? i don't see that happening. we have some historical evidence to back that up. in october of 2016, he had the opportunity to replace trump at the top of that ticket. he did not take that attempt.

was that after the billy bush incident? guest: yes. to the callers point of pence i try not toler, deal in absolutes because it is impossible to know. i try to point this out in the book. peopleone hand, you have who split with the christian rights and the broader politicized movement over that point. over trump coming in. you also have people in pence's orbit and his advisors and friends -- and here's the interesting thing -- two biblical allegories explain why mike pence is there. how can he stand next to donald trump? here is answer. trump'sis immanuel to .pic and as her never can a

trying to keep the broader populist sake. to the, he is joseph trump's faro. he is placed by god to keep everything on track. this tracks with the secular version of this, which you would hear from people occasionally about the adults in the room, in the white house. that is how they view it. does it mean that he agrees that people should cheat on their wives and pay money to born stars? no. but he is trying to do good. host: let's go to california. this is chris on the independent line. caller: yes. can bendering if pence orbit ofto trump's lies and deceptions and cheating deceptions and cheating

our government. host: do you think there is a line that vice president pence's character would say this is enough? guest: that is a great question. i got that question a couple of days ago. there has to be some line. we have not seen it yet. he is unflinchingly loyal to trump. we have not crossed that line. i don't entirely know what that would be. a chance tou get personally interview him? guest: yes. i wish he would talk with us about him personally. one of my favorite interviews with him was about russell kirk. it is one of his favorite philosophers. he loves many books. a would go on vacation with russell kirk book under his arm. is the founder of modern conservatism. academic.ore a little denser. certainly a conservative mind.

one of his favorite books is a tough read. you might want to go into it with cliff notes of that one. it is all encompassing. one of his old partners, craig, when they were at the think tank in the 90's, he made a point to me. he said russell kirk would write that way on purpose to make it hard to get through. because, if you really wanted information, you would have to crack through a lot of density. host: let's go to atlanta. lloyd is on the democrat line. caller: good morning. this personed by you have talking about pence and how it relates to what is going on currently. but, i will take it that pence is going to basically be in the same trap that donald trump is. he is involved in it. it is extortion, by their own words on their own telephone call. there is no doubt about that. they will be impeached. compared to be

clinton's impeachment about sex and how republicans were firm about that but don't care about extortion, i am not sure. tothe end of the day, i have shout out rich america. this is america. i get it. you want trump in the white house because he will continue to move money to their upper class. but, at what price? at what point, people don't know climate change is happening. kids, atetention of warspoint, with all the that will occur with the instability of north korea, at what point is there enough money that is not enough? i understand where the caller is. a lot of people feel that way. i feel like, when i was covering the trump-russia investigation,

that was a long investigation. there were many offshoots of it. it was hard to understand. this ukraine investigation, i am talking as a reporter, it feels like it is moving incredibly fast. it is a lot more concise. a lot clearer than where we were . will pins be removed with trump, will he be impeached with trump? take office? these are hypotheticals. we are still early in this, even though it is moving fast. nations, theted general meeting in the united nations, he mentioned the vice president in terms of mike pence's conversations with the ukrainian president. here is a look. pres. trump: impeachment for that? when you have a wonderful meeting or a phone conversation? the second conversation. i think you should ask him about the first conversation, also. i heard that there is a rumor out there.

it was beautiful. it was just a perfect conversation. i think you should do that. vicenk you should ask for president pence's conversation because he had a couple of conversations also. i can save you a lot of time. they were all perfect. host: what do you suppose president trump was trying to do in terms of appointing reporters to ask mike pence about that. ? guest: he was trying to wrap his arms around him and not let go. theinterpretation is that official pence white house version of this is that there is nothing to see here. if you don't look at his tapes, you will find the same thing. if we heard pence's tapes, that would be true. he is the opposite of donald trump in terms of how he communicates. is based on myis

interviews with sources, he is bear hugging mike pence right now and not letting go. there is some fear behind that. quite a bit of fear. host: here is k on the republican line. caller: good morning. host: good morning. caller: i am calling in response vice president pence. i believe he has had a positive influence on our president and the president family. it has all contributed, if you have noticed president trump has , more a little, um in-depth on what is going on. i believe he is true and honest in trying to fight for our country. to be under handedness that the democrats and other people are trying to put out, really, it is not as

grave and as people as they are making out. peopleve too that if want to fact check things, if you go to the christian bible, the facts, check that out. that will determine our future anyway. faith, our choices are going to be this. socialism, fascism, totalitarianism. remember what khrushchev said. we will bury you from within. host: what do you think of the caller's description of the influence of mike pence on president trump? guest: that is a great point. i have heard that periodically from his advisors and other republicans that his faith is rubbing off on donald trump. occasionally, i would hear that spontaneity has been rubbing off on mike pence. [laughter]

that is one argument for it. reason --rt of the that is a big argument for why mike pence is there. at the end of the 2016 election, this dynamic is still true there with 2020 in play. if would hear people say mike pence is there, i can make a vote for donald trump. he will keep him on track. he will pull him back to something acceptable to a certain group of voters. it worked, clearly. they are in the white house. oft would not have worked chris christie or newt gingrich were there. if you look, mike pence is every bit as busy on twitter as president trump is. guest: yeah. the funny thing is i am blanking on the exact many scale that was a few weeks ago. there are so many of them.

he adopted trump's tone and the response was interesting. you don't always see him do that. occasionally, he will take on all caps referring to pick this -- fake this. he loves to do that and you see it in his career. host: does he stay away from partisan attracts? -- attacks? guest: no. no. he does partisan a tax-free he has always done partisan attacks. previously, he was better about not being as avid about them. that was a hallmark of his political career. he would say i am conservative but i am not angry about it. that was something i think they worried about when they decided about whether or not to join trump. it is hard not to stand next to trump. , a sistereech coach from the catholic school he went

debate whereed the he accepts the nomination for vp at the convention. she said she loved and she was so proud of him. that it was the same guy and he was the same great speaker from grade school. she did not like when he started attacking hillary clinton. i think you get this discord in the person. lobianco is our guest. his book is piety and power, mike pence and the taking of the white house. (202) 748-8001 for those of you on the republican line. democrat line is (202) 748-8000. for independents and all others, (202) 748-8002. let's take a brief look at vice president pence's acceptance speech at the gop convention in cleveland in 2016.

>> i did some observing myself. [laughter] i have seen the way he deals with people who work for him at every level. i have seen the way they feel about working for him. now, i will grant you that he can be a little rough with politicians on the stage. i will bet we see that again. [cheers and applause] but, i have seen this good man up close. his utter lack of pretense. his respect for the people who work for him and his devotion to his family. host: lots more calls for tom lobianco. elise, from california, go ahead. caller: that is a laughable comment to listen to with mike pence. he doesn't note donald trump at

all. everything he just said was a lie. he is not kind to people. he is very rude to people. probably the rudest president we have ever had in the history of america. is a little too religious for me. right-wing lot of evangelicals who have been preaching every sunday that god sent donald trump to america and that is pretty scary stuff, fellas. that is pretty scary stuff. call.thanks for your tom lobianco, how does the religious committee view mike pence's position as vice president, especially on efforts in terms of curbing abortion? guest: let me step back for a second. this is something i tried to do in the book to understand where he is. political reporters will talk

about the christian right as one block. we, more generally, we'll talk about evangelical voters as one group. i wanted to understand for this group, the faith. not just the politics. there is quite a bit of blending of the two. evangelicals are not one monolithic block. i have started -- i was raised catholic. i did not go into this understanding what it means to be evangelical and have that experience. i did a bible study. i started going to bible study as part of the research for this to understand it. it is not about mike pence or donald trump or anything. it is just about getting a better sense of the bible and what some of these feelings are .he more i the more i research this, hence in his personal faith and practice is not part of the jerry falwell world.

he does not fall neatly into that world. their policies will line up an awful lot. that is not his style of practice. ,ased on everything i can tell based on what his friends told me and based on all of my research. host: let me give you a chance to respond from criticism you're getting from mike pence's daughter, charlotte. piece saying itc threatens to degrade people everywhere. rather than provide facts, and allow readers to draw their own political conclusions, he violates mr. penn's possible faith journey. this correlation dismisses the genuine importance of one's personal faith, and instead insists that personal gain is the main reason for holding religious views at all. this creates a cultural

conversation that undermines religious freedom and stunts the ability of religious people to feel comfortable expressing their beliefs. i would disagree with how she put it. i hope she gets to take a look at the book. i would love to talk with her. she is a religious student. she knows her father. she has written a book about lessons from her father that came out about a year ago. she has incredible insight here. --t she wrote not one ort it is the other, it is not politics or faith. it is both. he is a human. i tried to keep it focused on him. the book is about the talk and pull about the faith and ambition. , i talked with more than 100 people with this. i took some exception to being

referred to as lazy. i hope that it is not lazy. i talked to a lot of people for this and i struggled with it to try to find where the boundaries are. to try to understand this is political. but this is private faith. the trump campaign asked him to go speak at mega-churches and tell them to vote for donald trump. he said no. that is a practice of his private faith. real too.mbition is both things can be real. he is a human. they contrast against each other and they tug and pull and they inform each other as well. it is not cleanly one thing or the other. that is what i found in my reporting. in north carolina, frank, good morning. caller: i am a huge fan of c-span from back in the 90's. let me give you a short background on myself. i am an independent.

i was raised by a conservative parents. i am a with school student. i have been a conservative for 35 years and i am no longer a republican. i will tell you why. i have been listening to this channel. mr. penn's has any real, true, christian attributes. he is what we would consider, us real conservatives, to be a christian of convenience. when it is convenient to be a christian, then he is a christian. but, when it is not convenient, he likes to maneuver and maneuver and reinterpret things. he was picked because donald trump wanted to get the christian vote. that is the only reason. he doesn't care a word of what he says. conservatives who go with trump ofe conservatives

convenience. there are no true conservatives who go with donald trump. there are 30 from when trump was running for election who have spoken out and said i am a never trumper. when you are a true conservative and you are a true christian, you have a conscience. you go with your conscience. host: i appreciate the call. tom lobianco. guest: i was reporting a piece for yahoo! news about how jared kushner and ivanka trump were trying to get rid of penn's on the ticket -- mike pence on the ticket in 2020. there were real talks about that based on my reporting. his people were aware of this. one of his advisors told -- i think this gets to the charlotte pence op-ed and it gets to your viewers question as well. he came up with a great term for this which is the difference between practitioners,

evangelicals and political operative avon jelly close -- evangelicals. he calls them transactional avon jelly goals -- even jelly goals. evangelicals. house, thatna state is when they abandoned him. i think that stung him. he felt stung on both sides. talked with one of his friends, trying to understand why he placed of this world. you have to. politically, you have to play to the christian. is he the only politician that does that? of course not. he said it might not be penn's's style but who doesn't pander? every politician panders.

it is part of the game. it is not a sin. this is how politics works. this is 2015 and this is then governor pence with george stephanopoulos on abc. >> yes or no. in -- florist in indiana refuses to serve a gay couple, is that legal? >> this is where this debate has gone with misinformation. >> it is just a question. yes or no? >> there has been shameless rhetoric about my stay and this law and about its intentions all over the internet. people are trying to make it about one particular issue. now, you are doing that as well. the issue here, the religious freedom restoration act does not apply to disputes between individuals unless government action is involved.

theore than two decades, religious freedom restoration act has never been used to undermine antidiscrimination laws in this country. >> that was one of your supporters who was talking about the bill right there. it said it would protect a christian florist against any kind of punishment. is that true or not? is isrge, the issue tolerance a two way street or not? host: tom lobianco, what was the fallout from that? , it basicallyment ended his political career or that is the way his folks responded to it. i remember that interview. for four years, i have been puzzling over why did he melt down like that in a televised interview? this is one of his political superpowers. you never see that. my girlfriend at the time, my wife now, we were watching that.

she is not into politics. she doesn't do politics. she is not journalist. she is a noncombatant. and she listened and said wow, that was terrible. the fact that a regular human being heard that as bad. it made me like wow, i need to understand this. i have been trying for four years to get this. the thing that made me understand it and i had an interview with his old friend, jeff, a friend from that 1980's. jeff cardwell saw that pencil was angry. -- pence was angry. he was angry at all of the people on twitter and facebook trolling his family, making fun of them and making fun of his kids f. host: a personal anger. guest: yeah. i get it. .e went on there with dad rage

that to me is the best explanation for why he melt down on stephanopoulos like that. host: we hear from herbie on the democrats line. caller: good morning, bill. host: good morning. caller: thanks for this conversation. you sound more like an apologist for mike pence. pencey best to watch mike when he is on the stage with donald trump. and he looks nothing more than a yes-man. i don't understand how the american people can tolerate aftere like donald trump watching his news conference yesterday. angrynds more like an

15-year-old. and mike pence stands behind him. --on't understand how the freeer of the world, the commander in chief of the most powerful nation in the world can act like that and use the language he does. host: herbie in north carolina. guest: it sounds like it is too easy on mike pence. some say it is too hard on mike pence. it is possible. have i been too empathetic? i don't know. it is hard to tell when you're in the thicket and trying to go into his world and trying to report and trying to let the anecdotes say what they say.

so that we understand him. thatpeople might interpret differently. some of the book reviews say you do good job of trying to keep it in the middle. it is tough. he is a human. these things are complex. politics devolves into characters. caricatures missed the mark. i think they politically help him. i think those caricatures are good for him and keep that christian right voter base with him. host: next is james in tallahassee florida. caller: good morning. it seems to me that, since you know everything that is going on [indiscernible]

nobody wants pence for president. losey will step down -- nancy pelosi will step down. effort it is a concerted . you have to take down pence. i was wondering how long it would take. losey will be in line. she will say she doesn't want it -- nancy pelosi will be in line. she will say she doesn't want it. bill in will go to lafayette, indiana. mike pence's home state. caller: yes. i have a question for the author. is there a relationship between mitch daniels and mike pence, both were governors of indiana.

is there still a connection? guest: a great question. have covered a couple of governors, including mitch daniels, the former governor and president of purdue. with the dynamic democratic governors like martin o'malley. sometimes, you will get a sibling rivalry in intraparty. it is not always between the principles. it is not between mike pence and mitch daniels. they are different people and don't run in the same circles. they have a different style of politics. it is between the staff. ,ou would to see it between going further back in indiana, evan and frank o'bannon, when he follows him as governor. their staffs would bank heads. you saw this with pence and daniels.

worldes in a different politically than mitch daniels. they get along fine. there is no animosity but there is not an especially close relationship either. host: how important was mike pence's radio career in forming his political career? guest: this is fascinating. i did not understand this before i started researching and reporting the radio side. the radio is where he develops a good political antenna. -- he says he was rush limbaugh on decaf. he wasn't really like rush limbaugh at all. he would listen to people. five days a week, he was like you. you listen to people calling in and over the years, he developed a great antenna. a great sense of where people were. whenever they were having trouble hitting people on the air and they want to lighten up the boards, they would ask what ?o you think about bobby knight

bobby knight just threw up chair across the floor. should we fire him or is he the face of indiana basketball? he develops this great political antenna. that goes forward to 2015. this is where he starts to pick up, as he is running for reelection. this is when he starts to give the sense that trump is a real thing. at the end of 2015, everyone else is laughing off trump. he is out there, outside of indianapolis. indianapolis is its own bubble like ec or new york or wherever, outside the old manufacturing towns, he feels these trump rumblings. need toi might get on board. host: you can text us at (202) 748-8003. rebecca says pence is a religious right, hypothetically.

give us an example of pence faith rubbing off on donald trump or just an example of pence's faith. guest: people tell me they will hold hands and pray, occasionally before meetings. that trump has become ok with this. it was awkward at first but they do it now. faith, he does acts of service. i am trying to think back, two years ago, he was washing down the vietnam war memorial. you see this. he goes out and will do these things. it is in stark contrast to trump. pence does not mind getting down, i think it was one of the hurricanes in 2017, he was lifting tree limbs and handing out food. it was not like trump tossing rolls of paper towels.

host: we saw the ceremony for the new joint chiefs of staff chair. we noticed that there was a man in a wheelchair that mike pence helped the military officials get down and lift the chair in that ceremony. let's hear from cindy, she is from st. petersburg, florida on their democrat line. caller: good morning and thank you for taking my call. i have not read his book. it sounds like a good read. i know that trump never liked pence. trump always thought of him as a loser. i think trump had a poster by the name of tony, who said pence is a good candidate because he is lifting your numbers with evangelical voters and conservatives. a former campaign

chairman, paul manafort and the rnc chairman pushed for pence. they had their reasons. the bottom line was it would help trump with the conservatives and the evangelicals. pence ise only reason there. it makes the ticket looked a little more solid and palatable. with this scandal going on right now with the impeachment and trump mentioning pence being on the phone call, trump will throw pence under the bus in a heartbeat. i can't wait to see when that happens. that's all i have to say. guest: to the callers last point, it kind of feels that way. it felt that way with the trump press conference where he talked about releasing the tapes.

and some rumblings about whether or not trump's people are behind the washington post story. host: the one that came out last night. guest: i am sure the sources are impeccable because there is great reporting behind it. it feels like trump is wrapping his arms around pence and not letting go. host: the post reporting last week a story that came out that pence seeks to dodge impeachment spotlight. impeachment inquiry could test his role as that figure. does he have that impression among people who cover the white house and cover the vice president? guest: where he is right now it reminds me so much of what was happening with the trump-russia investigation. on one hand, you would have his folks say he's incredibly influential. policy.s make him sound like an important figure. stuff,u ask about this

he doesn't know about it. he had nothing to do with it. i remember when the house democrats got a hold of the transition emails during the russia investigation. it was fascinating because pence was the director of the transition. they could not find his name. he was a ghost. ashley parker, an incredible white house reporter, wrote this blockbuster story and asked a question of mike pence about 1.5 years ago, at the olympics. she said mr. vice president, people say you understand what is going on but often times, it seems you're out of the loop. he seemed to get a little .lushed red, whic out of the loop could save him right now. from richard hear from port charlotte, florida.

on the republican line. caller: good morning. it is a pleasure to see a decent, honest person giving a true to life portrayal, rather than the usual hate you get. i have found that the only piece of news i can get is on the foxbusiness channel or cnbc business channel. being a small businessman, who had 25 employees on the verge of came in andtrump freed up all kinds of rules and regulations to allow small business to flourish. he is defeating russia and the middle east with low gas prices. from a strictly business point of view, trump is doing everything right. seeing it on your show

that they are telling the truth for once. host: thank you. tom lobianco, we talked about the religious and policy issues. what other issues are in mike pence's portfolio? a shadow is neither president or a glorified coat rack. he is in the middle. the national religious freedom hhs,imiting gay marriage, that was a big push. let me point out something. this is kind of interesting. the fighting between pence's inff, a lot of people indiana are daniel's people. it is funny. it is funny how political oppositions dissolve once we get to the top and more

opportunities arrive. host: did you talk to mitch daniels for this book? guest: know. mitch did not want to talk. he did not want to talk. host: say hello to jean in detroit, democrats line. comments,have a few to me, there is a difference between being spiritual person and of religious person. the spiritual operate out of love. with religious people, it is more out of doctrine. out of judgment. there are two scriptures that struck me. one is how we are not to judge. and when we judge the same way we are judged. the other scripture, was the one that says how we will have to stand before god, each person and give them a pallet of every

idle word and deed. the gayt said to me is people, the adulterers, those people have to answer to god. each of us have to answer to god for how we treat them. and the god we serve is a god of love and when we act out of judgment, we are going against his will. thank you. rayford is on the independent line from germantown, maryland. caller: can you hear me? host: yes. caller: i want to point out quickly that mike pence and all of the other so-called evangelicals like him are christians in name only. donald trump as the ideal role model for all youth in america. let's take a look at this.

we have seen three tauzin -- 3000 times that they are stealing money from contractors. he had to pay $25 million in the trump university suit for stealing money. fraud. he had to pay that. he is the one who was sued by the nixon administration. he led the birther movement. we know that he cheated on all of his wives. paid off poor and stars. ars.ornst kids by keeping them in cages. me askom lobianco, let you, on top of his question, is there any indication that karen pence expressed reservations about becoming the vice president or running mate? during the access hollywood week and based on

everything else, she was angry about it, but they reach a point, and i think this goes to understanding the political side of it, they reach a point where they are going on the plane, it is saturday, october 8, 2016 in the middle of this firestorm, and they are hiding out from the press but they are also going to fly out to rhode island to do a fundraiser for donald trump in the ticket. they get on the plane and karen looks to one of their top aides and says, we knew what we were signing up for. we do not agree with this, but the mission is to stick with the ticket. i think for me, this would help me understand because the more reporting that i did, the more it became clear that the political strategy was that trump was going to lose. everyone expected it. they would bees, better positioned to win the 2020 nomination in their own

right. kisskaren pence refuses to mike pence on election night, the first time i heard that, i thought it was because she was angry at donald trump and his style. the more i reported this in the more i understood that their joint political career was focused on 2020, it is a gamble. the gamble they took when they signed on with trump was that he might win. they lost the gamble. in that moment, they went from having these tedder -- tether style to trump to being d for four years. host: we go to loretta in mississippi. caller: i support mr. pence. 93% of the media is liberal. john solomon has been investigating the ukraine and prosecutors that prosecuted

people who were involved with the dnc and working with the campaign to help against trump. the democratic party is the party of slavery. and abortion. and against civil rights of the 1960's. auburn, new york, jeff on our democrat line. caller: good morning. i would like to ask you about anti-catholic prejudice among -- among evangelicals. my mother was a methodist, my dad, catholic, so my stepdad had us convert to catholicism. later in life, i explored other religions, so technically, i am no longer a practicing catholic, but i was baptized and confirmed. i found a lot prejudice against catholics among the evangelicals, especially the

southern baptists. i would like to tie that to the law in immigration debate. the wall it is to keep catholics out of the south. anti-catholic is migration, and this migration is due to climate change and violence south of the border. have't know why christians chism today even though the martin luther and so on among the catholics. there is a prejudice. i was told that i had to get baptized as a baptist because catholics are idolaters and we are all going to hell. host: tom? on the southraised side of baltimore, raised catholic. researching the

religious side of the book, i heard a term i never heard before -- it is a derogatory term for catholics. i was a little surprised by that. i did not know that people hated catholics that much. it is not everybody by any stretch, and to keep the focus here, that is not pence. he is not like that at least based on all of my research, he does not fall into that world. are there southern baptist style evangelicals who do believe that that catholics are going to help? yes. are there catholics who are fervently anti-protestant? yes. there are a million and one different shades of every religion you could think of. host: mike pence was born a catholic and became converted during college, correct? guest: right. host: tom lobianco, and the brand-new

>> washington journal live every day with news and policy issues that impact you. morning, theday role of the whistleblower in the impeachment inquiry. robert will discuss the complaint against president trump and the administration's relationship with the intelligence community. watch washington journal live sunday morning and on monday starting at 7:00 a.m. eastern as we continue our battleground state tour across the country. we will visit the state of ohio. on american history tv, sunday at 6:00 p.m. on american artifacts, we will preview the votes for women exhibit at the smithsonian. business.rted her own

advocated for sex outside of marriage. a and at 6:30 p.m., discussion of the book democracy and truth. >> no one person or institution or sector, king, priest, research body, would get to call all the shots. >> explore our past on american history tv every weekend on c-span3. announcer: the white house did not release a weekly address from the president. u.s. representative lisa blunt rochester from delaware gave the democratic address, highlighting house democrats' new legislation, the lower drug costs now act. the bill was introduced in response to the rising cost of prescription drugs.