>> follow campaign 2022 nevada this weekend. at 11:00 p.m. eastern, democratic presidential candidates joe biden, pete -- senator amyer klobuchar, const i are, senator elizabeth warren speak for democrats and on sunday, live at 5:00 p.m. eastern, joe biden, pete buttigieg, senator amy klobuchar, and tom steyer speak at a forum on infrastructure. live coverage on c-span. watch on-demand on c-span.org and listen on the go on the c-span radio app. we are back with catherine waldron, a national security and cybersecurity resident fellow, and we will talk about 2020 election security. good morning. what theall, tell us

institute is and where you get your money. we are nonprofit, nonpartisan, get our funding from a variety of foundations and other donors, but we are all independent. we are all independence and if >> you wrote an article titled "friendly fire: the number one threat to american elections and cybersecurity." >> most of the focus after 2016 has been on people outside the u.s. trying to get into the system. system. when i was writing the piece, i realized we were talking about security on offense and defense. we have been talking about the russians but not about not having appropriate training for our own election security workers and poll workers. of training do

election and poll workers get and what should they get when it comes to cybersecurity? host: unfortunately, poll workers and election workers, there is no uniform standard for training. it depends across your state and local counties as to what sort of training you are receiving. this can vary widely depending on where you are located. most workers are trained by the local election officers. it sometimes states to get involved. this training can vary all over the place. because of the shift towards cyber threats, i would be concerned that people are not getting enough cyber training. specific, who do election workers and poll workers work for? do they work for the city,

counties, states, federal government? who is in charge? most elections are run by local officials. there are some states that impact but most low -- a volunteer for the local jurisdictions. anyone does the training it is going to be local, not state and federal? guest: exactly. host: we are specifically talking about cyber security. what is the biggest concern we have for cybersecurity? should we be worried about foreign affairs or local ?nterference question guest: we should be word on a wide variety of levels. the russians were active during the last campaign and expect they will be active during 2020

as well. ignore potential threats and even human error. host: find what you mean my unintentional human error. someonetalking about using an easily guessed password, spilling coffee on a pewter? what do you mean by unintentional human error. host: it could be both of those and a wide variety of mistakes. everyday americans that are well-intentioned serving their country but they make a mistake. maybe they spill the coffee on the laptop or a password that is too easy to hack into or maybe it is a voting machine that has been connected when it should've been disconnected from the internet. host: we are talking about 2020 election security. if you want to get in on this ourersation, we will open

regular lines. republicans can call in at (202) 748-8001. democrats, your line is (202) 748-8000. independents, your line is (202) 748-8002. you can always text us your comments at (202) 628-0184. facebook twitter and as well. type of any cybersecurity training at all for election and poll workers or is it just whatever the local officials decide they want to do? guest: there are great resources available. any states have enacted some form of training. if you are in one of those one.s, oklahoma has you have had some sort of cyber

training toward state and local election officials. however, dhhs has a wide variety of resources available. they have free training available for state and local authorities and they also have great resources available in regards to assessment that organizations can ask for that will -- assess how good the cyber security is. see and do testing to what sort of the scenarios they would be vulnerable to hackers. we have a question from a social media follower. i had it here and it seems to have vanished. inhave a question coming which states have voting machines that are connected to the internet or to all states

have voting machines connected to the internet? internet connected is voting in the united states? guest: great question. almost no voting machines are connected to the internet. you can rest assured that your machines are far more secure than you think. we have found some instances where voting machines have modems in them that connect to cell phone networks that can then be connected to the internet. bey are not supposed to connected during the elections process. you do here stories of instances where workers forgot to isconnect the modem and that one example of potential human error that we want to avoid. stacy, who talk to is calling from mclean, virginia on the independent line. good morning. caller: morning.

good morning, america. i have concerns as election port officer. i am concerned that our government, not our government, the republicans are not taking these attacks on our election seriously and doing things to block election security. i can assure you eleanor which eleanor -- or-- myself is not enough to wage war against a county or a precinct. could you tell me more about what you are doing or what we are trying to do to get those republicans on board to protect our elections? and also why did he ivanka trump need to go to china to get patents for voting machines? what was that about? do you know anything about that? guest: you bring up a great point, the need to get both parties on board with supporting

election security. it needs to be a bipartisan issue. it addresses the foundation of american moxie. -- democracy. the face of today's politics has created difficulty to find out how to properly address cybersecurity. a recent report was released that the partisan nature of and the obama administration's response to the 2016 interference because they disagreed on how to appropriately address the interference at the time. so absolutely in order to address security at any impactful level, we need to have both parties on board. host: i want to read from your article and have you elaborate. here is what you wrote.

"while problems with voting technology can bedevil any election, amply demonstrated in the iowa caucuses, human error is a major vulnerability in any voter system. tales of worker error range from optical scanners being left undone and distribution of ballots to the wrong precinct. one study of poll workers in california reported several such reaches of standard operating leaving a including memory card with vote totals at the polling site at the end of the day, and leaving the door to a ballot box unlocked." all full workers volunteers? and should we make them paid employees with required training before working at polls? guest: most poll workers are recruited. they are volunteers in that sense, but a lot of them do receive some form of compensation. this may not be very much compensation, but a lot do

receive something. most of them do undergo training . so most states have some sort of requirement that they are required to go through some amount of training. this training can be a bit of a barrier in terms of recruiting for workers. certain localities can struggle to get the required number of poll workers, which is perhaps one reason local officials may be wary of increasing for training requirements, because they are concerned about having enough people to run polling stations. host: let's talk to david from orange park, florida on the republican line. david, good morning. caller: good morning. my question is can you give me a , specific example of russian interference in the election? because i think it is a hoax. but just a specific example of how the russians interfered with

with the election in and how 2016, they might do it in 2020. kathryn: great question. thanks for asking. we happen to know that the russians have probed almost all of the voter data registration bases in states. and we do know that they managed to breach a database in illinois. now it doesn't like they changed , voter data. it doesn't look like that was impacted. but the fact that they could get into a system at all is very, very alarming. that is something we should be wary about in 2020, with their access to our voter databases, essentially. host: let's talk to dan who is calling from georgetown, massachusetts on the independent line. dan, good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for having me on. just to the last answer, public voting data is public information.

so anyone who wants to get it, that is public information for , anyone to see how people are registered. hack.is not a russian where there is evidence of backng is, let's just go to the bush-gore. bush versus gore. that is when the supreme court chose the president of the united states and that is when , things started to go off the rails. after that, john kerry versus george bush. the george bush win was a statistical anomaly based on exit poll data. what we used to, hold other countries to the standard of using as polls to get a check and balance on other elections, we have now diminished. and now, what we do with our exit poll data is we have two companies collaborate together

data and thenl , they receive that raw data and then they hold onto it. and it is secret, and no one is allowed to share any of it until the actual poll numbers come out . and then they massage the data to match up with the so-called counted votes. there is no check and balance whatsoever in our entire voting system. and i think we are getting a really good look on the democrat side how corrupt it is. the democratic party, undemocratic process of electing their people. it is absurd. host: go ahead and respond. kathryn: the caller brings up a good point, which is, how do we

verify the authenticity of the votes? this is something a lot of andthis is something a lot of states are starting to embrace a new way of auditing, which is risk-limiting auditing and it is , more statistically sound than more auditing behaviors and uses in the past. colorado has jumped on board and quite a variety of states are requiring or adopting this type of auditing so we can verify the election results. , is cybersecurity training required for poll work first in all 50 states, or are only certain states requiring it? kathryn: the training in different states depends on the state, the local election officials, and what they choose to address. most of the training this is not , extensive training. poll workers need to be trained in cybersecurity but also on how

all use the machines, and the day-to-day activities going on on election day. even if cybersecurity is addressed briefly, it may be a four-hour training they are going through. sometimes it is far less, actually. just because something is brought up doesn't mean someone is adequately trained in it. suggest?at would you if you are put in charge of cybersecurity for the u.s. election system, what would you suggest that local and state officials tell poll workers about cybersecurity? what are some of the tips they should be telling them? kathryn: depending on what you are doing that particular day, it depends on the cybersecurity tips you need. there is always training about passwords. and also phishing. hing for us.e phis phishing it is those , emails that you get that you

aren't supposed to click on where it prompts you to change your password, for example. and your password is fine. or there could be broader threats to an election, an email that says, hey, you can vote here. that would be a problematic example of a phishing campaign. kevin let's talk to calling from florida on the republican line. good morning. caller: good morning. i was calling because you said there were a couple of ways the election can be impacted, that being from adversaries, russia, china. we always talk about russia. we never mention china, or some of our other adversaries, but more importantly, those at home, illegal aliens given driver license is in mostly democratic

states, and they are going to go vote. andvery citizen that votes, then a noncitizen votes, they cancel your vote. and i know in 2016, not one vote was changed by any adversaries, but i'm curious how many votes were changed by illegal aliens coming in and voting in our system? kathryn: you know, i can't give you the numbers on that. specifically, research has shown that voter fraud is not a huge issue in the united states. but i do think this concern about the authenticity of our elections is actually one of those disagreements that the russians and other foreign adversaries look to exploit when creating distrust in the american political system at jesse: we have another social media follower who says this, as a former election official, one suggestion is that precincts make an effort to recruit a proportion of younger workers.

i would like to see college students recruited as part of their community service. it is important to get them involved early on. now as a frequent voter, we go polls, and all of the poll workers, at least of the audit let -- at least a lot of them, look to be older. do we know the average age of poll workers in the united states, and is that a problem when it comes to cybersecurity? electionthe eac, the assistance committee, did a survey of poll workers in 2016. poll workers actually span a wide variety of ages. there are plenty of older poll workers, but also quite a few programs aimed at recruiting younger poll workers from college and even high school. , a lot of states require poll workers be 18 and up, but they may have additional recruitment programs to try to foster specific engagement and encourage volunteering at that younger level.

certainly younger poll workers might come in more adept at technology, but there is no reason to assume older workers aren't equally adapt, or can't learn cybersecurity and technology training as well. host: let's talk to richard, who is calling from nashville, tennessee on the independent line. richard good morning. caller: good morning. what i would like the election commission -- i'm in nashville , of course and it is a growing , metroplex of a city -- i would like to see -- the american people need to understand in the state. there is around 97 counties in tennessee. and that is about right for that sized estate around the country, about 90 to 100 counties. we are inderstand why

a rush to get through such -- get through the election. we have super tuesday coming up and think about it, most young , students who can vote are in college classes and most are working paycheck-to-paycheck and they want to vote. and they can't vote. i would like for the young lady to talk about the structure of each town, county, if there are 200 people or a million people in a county. let's have a week of elections and make sure that those people -- i don't mind a young person in high school 16 to 18 working in there, but i think they should should have the mental -- most people in my church, most people where i vote, and i have voted all my life, they are older, because they are retired and they want to still be active in the community. so if you took a young person and mentored them with an older person, you might get a liberal a conservativeet view, but at the same time they , learn from each other.

they are smart about the internet and all that. and i would love to see as get away from the computer and get back to paper ballots and do it county to county and spread it out during the week so we have , the time and we are not in a rush. never rush through anything. buying a car, getting married, anything. i will close on that. thank you. kathryn: you bring up good points. and yes, one of the difficulties in recruiting workers and volunteers in general is that a lot of people are working or in classes during that time. that is one reason why we do see so many older poll workers volunteer, it is that they are retired. so that is a really good point to bring up. the second good point you brought up is you mentioned paper ballots and the need to get back to that. and i and many, many election experts would agree with you that paper ballots, especially in light of 2016, are a very important component.

a lot of machines have some form, either you vote with a paper ballot or there is now a way to verify that with a paper trail. a lot of states have moved to a system that will incorporate some kind of a paper trail and , that is really important for being able to verify election results. jesse: let's look at this. the intelligence community's first elections czar was in washington last month and talked about how the government is conquering foreign interference in this year's election. here is what shelby said. [video clip] >> i appreciate the spectrum of tools to the united states government to counter foreign influence. speaking for the intelligence community, first and foremost, we seek to not only collect against this activity and

develop insights. those insights are critical, not only to inform policymakers so they can make good decisions, but even more so to develop a level of expertise so we anticipate these moves for they happen, and provide the greatest amount of decision space for our , in order to best defend the united states. that can find its way into providing intelligence that supports diplomatic engagements, which could range from working with our allies, which is such a ic, all thenent of way to informing how best state department can do marsh countries that are looking into these activities. and intelligence can inform the designations for sanctions. you have seen a certain surge in sanctions recently in terms of a major policy mechanism by which we try to impose costs and consequences for this type of activity. on the other hand, several other

tools that are available to us, one to help our colleagues in cyber command develop their own capabilities to target and stop this type of activity on the network before it even happens. and i think what gets a lot of attention is the downgrading of intelligence information, which challenging, to share that with network defenders and those that are involved in influence operations or social media or tech companies so they can use that to better defend their network. it is not just downgrading so classified information. and i recognize there is a heavy premium on that work, but there is a full spectrum of tools that that -- that the ic either has in their toolkit, or we use to inform a broader level of activities across the government. jesse: is there a role for the federal government, specifically for the department of homeland security, in securing the upcoming fall election, and

working with state officials? kathryn: absolutely. and dhs has been active in engaging with state and local officials and having a wide , number of resources available. they have been involved in providing training. they have been involved in creating information sharing centers, so state and local officials can share information with one another and hear information about threats coming in. and there is absolutely a role for the federal government to play. jesse: let's talk to thomas, who is calling from roger city, michigan on the independent line. good morning. caller: hello. this is thomas i am wondering how the polling is going to be working for the 500 21 federally-recognized tribes across the united states. we all are going to vote, but we have never been able to run for elected did office in our tribe.

howwe just want to know many federally-recognized tribes could be affected by this next election? jesse: i believe he was asking about the voting systems for thw many federally-recognized indian tribes in the united states. kathryn: that is outside my scaler purview, so i won't comment on that one. jesse: ok. let's go to cairo, missouri. jim is on the democratic line. good morning. caller: good morning. jesse: before you get started let me ask you a question, do , you pronounce it missouri or missoura? caller: missouri. jesse: ok. we were having a debate about that this morning. i was born in new joisee. jesse: [laughter] ok. go ahead. : a paper ballot now to

every voter may increase the voter turnout and would also provide a paper trail. but what concerns me more than the actual count of the vote is the results of the vote. apparently, republicans get more seats with less votes. the 48 senators that voted to impeach represented 12 million more people than the 50 something that voted to acquit. we are in a state of minority rule. and i defy anybody, any american out there, to declare the man that comes in number two as the winner. that is not the american way. thank you. now, several callars and people online have brought up the idea of a mail-in ballot or going back to some form of paper

ballots, taking the computers completely out of the equation. is that even possible in today's society, to hold a statewide or national election without a computer? kathryn: it is certainly possible. because you have to remember, national and statewide elections are just local elections, and you have a whole conglomeration of them. many jurisdictions do vote with paper ballots and those are optically scanned at a later point, or they can be scanned at the moment. and there are a variety of elections that are also hybrids. there are quite a few voting machines where you press the button but it creates a paper ballot that you can verify at that moment, so it creates a paper trail as well. i think it is very, very important to have some form of paper trail involved. you can imagine issues with it , but incorporating paper back

into the system is incredibly important. jesse: we have heard a lot about russian interference in the united states' election. what are the other threats to the election systems from foreign actors? is it just russia, or are we looking at other countries doing this? and one question that has come up before, does the united states do this to other countries? kathryn: russia has been the main focus thanks to the , activities of the 2016 campaign. we do have a variety of other countries that are considered america's top cyber adversaries. china, as mentioned before, north korea, iran. we haven't seen them engage in the same activity in our election security. that is not to rule out they couldn't engage in that type of behavior in the future. and certainly they all engage in cyber activities that are harmful to the united states. jesse: so outside of russia, are

there any other specific countries we should be looking at? china, north korea, england, anyone? kathryn: china is the next biggest adversary and iran because of the way political tensions have been hot and cold with them lately. jesse: let's talk to tom, who is calling from minnesota on the republican line. >> we are going to leave this washington journal from earlier today but you can watch on c-span.org, and we go live to 'sark county, nevada democratic party at the kickoff of its gala a las vegas, including speech from democratic presidential candidates, a week before the state's caucus is held. [captions copyright national cable satellite