about how urban centers in the united states could be affected by the pandemic. is next.on journal" ♪ >> on a typical weekend, up to one third of americans would be attending some religious service. the president would like to get the country back to that point again, clearing houses of worship essential and calling him them to reopen. we have lots of debate on that this morning. whether those houses of worship should be reopened during the coronavirus concerns and we want to get more of your pots this sunday morning. again, should houses of worship be reopened.

if you think yes, call this number (202) 748-8000, and if you think no, you can also call (202) 748-8001, and you can also send a text, (202) 748-8003. and if you cannot wait in on social media, you can post a comment on facebook. before we get to your calls this sunday morning, we wanted to stunning front page to the new york times this morning. 100,000, sonearing there is no traditional news story on this front page this morning. this is a series of names where they are from, folks who have passed away or died from the coronavirus, and they have published 1000 of these names, just 1% with biographies or something special about those people. they write that the numbers

alone cannot possibly measure the impact of the coronavirus on america, whether it is the number of patients treated, jobs interrupted or lives cut short. as the country nears a grim milestone, the times scoured obituaries and death notices of the victims, the 1000 people reflect just 1% of the total, they were not simply names on the list. they were us. you can see it spans the front page of the times and goes deeper into the paper. 12 and 13 that we have. just 1% of the 1000 people who have died so far in this number reaches one hundred thousand perhaps this coming week. on this sunday, here is a reminder of what the president

had to say on friday at his news conference announcing the churches and other houses of worship should be reopened. here is a look. pres. trump: some governors have deemed liquor stores and abortion clinics as essential, but have left out churches and other houses of worship. i am correcting this injustice and calling houses of worship essential. i call upon governors to allow our churches and places of worship to open right now. if there is any question, they will have to call me, but they will not be successful in that call. these are places that hold the society together, and the people are demanding to go to church and synagogues. many millions embrace worship as an essential part of life. the ministers and pastors and

rabbis and other faith leaders will make sure that their congregations are safe as they gather and pray. i know them well. they love their congregations. they love their people. they do not win anything bad to happen to them or anybody else. the governors need to do the right thing and allow these essential places of faith to open right now. for this weekend. if they do not know it, i will override the governors. in america we need more prayer, not less. host: that was the president from friday's news conference. we have a religion reporter from the washington post to explain how the president ultimately got to that announcement on friday. the vast majority of

houses of worship in the united states have been up until now pretty conservative and closed, but as we have been talking about reopening, it has become evident that the reopening is more complicated than the closing seem to have been. there has been a back and forth going on behind the scenes between the cdc and the white house about whether there should be kind of a federal guidance for houses of worship. it just a couple of days before the president made that announcement on friday, we and others reported that the white house was saying there was going to be no plans for any federal guidance in part because they did not want to give the impression that they were adding more regulations to whatever was going on at the state and local level to what houses of worship have to do to figure out how to reopen. for reasonsersed

that are not completely clear, said whatesident also your listeners heard. he does not have the authority to override governors on that kind of thing, but he is speaking for a minority, but a passionate and engaged minority of americans who feel disrespected. he is focusing their on the issue of being essential, the status of houses of worship. i have seen that in my reporting throughout this for again a minority but a pretty engaged minority who feel what is being whatis a continuation of they see as a diminishing of religion in the country. to hear him say churches are the head ofnd i saw

the southern baptists convention saying thank you to the president. that is what he is really speaking to, there are many people ofncluding color that have lost many people .o the virus, including leaders the church of god and christ, primarily african-american denomination have lost dozens to the virus. he is really speaking to that question of respect and freedom of religion more than anything else. host: what has the reaction been by the governors around the country and those who lead the congregations? like on a lot of things, the country is very diverse. i think the majority of states that never had restrictions on houses of worship, and then you

had some that have had the most stringent. and then you have kind of a mix. in mostity is that places, again the vast majority of the houses of worship have gone along with the closures. they have gone along with health officials who have put churches into the same opening phase category as other places where people gather for long periods of time. this is because health officials who have had these restrictions on houses of worship put them in a category like theaters or movies where you are sitting together and especially this issue of prayer and singing where you are putting out your breath and possibly sharing the virus. are veryes

conservative about opening, but there have been places where people who wanted to open, we saw some clashes in minnesota in the last few days where the catholic church and one of the , and thereominations are many lutherans in minnesota, hired lawyers and said we want to open. they are still not open today, did say -- the governor that churches would be able to have anything but very small, 10 people or less, indoor services after the legal challenge. i think you still have the vast majority of places where people are going along with the health officials. you have a small but

engaged minority who are trying places wheree freedom for churches to open at a larger level. the president was talking about people pushing for their churches to be open, i went to church last weekend in virginia, the first week and they were led to be open outside of northern virginia, and it took a while to find a place that was open. people do not want to hurt the people in their churches. the church i went to was about 50% full. pretty much all jewish groups remain closed. they said they were going to wait until after they see the numbers go down before we consider opening. and you had several of the president's top religious still big mega churches closed. you have a lot of diversity, and

there are a lot of places where churches are really hurting from being closed, financially hurting, places that serve food and all kinds of things on the weekend. there is a big diversity of desires here. you do have people who are tapping into -- one, this question of freedom and respect for religion, and there is sort thing, i haveal heard a lot of pastors tell me, this is the minority, but saying that if you are close, you feel you are telling your congregation that the virus is stronger than god. that is a controversial kind of thing to say but it is a reality that people are confused or feel that they're are putting forward something confusing about what they are telling their congregation. i think it has been a hard time for clergy. michelle, thanks for

bringing us up to date on this issue. i appreciate it. here is the headline to the story, trumps tell states to and should to open, houses reopen, this is andrew from north carolina. good morning. caller: i appreciate you having this dialogue today. here in the south we view the houses of worship as essential there will not be one minister of any of those congregations who will not say his or her church are not essential. it is what we do. it is at our heart, getting together. the governor of north carolina, the liberal of north carolina lost a court case asked week because he overplayed his hand

allowing churches to reopen at the same time that other institutions were being allowed to reopen. he admitted as much that he overplayed his hand because he to say going -- all that let congregations determine these things. they are not going to want to their parishioners hurt. they are valuable to them. i think they will get it right. host: melissa, your thoughts on whether houses of worship should reopen. thank you. is your founder still alive? host: he is doing great. caller: good.

you guys are a shining light, like a lighthouse bringing the ship it to shore. i cannot say enough about c-span. it almost makes me want to cry. i think it is wonderful here in montana we have a tight community, and there is a bar on main street and right next to it is the church. it is hilarious, but i think it is interesting that they deemed the house of spiritual, liquor spirits, because alcoholism is a spirit, the state opened it immediately, but then the house of worship, now i think it is wonderful that they will recognize the fact that we do thata higher power, and america is founded on a higher power. this is such a wonderful thing that we are having these discussions about the higher power. host: if the houses of worship are reopened in red lodge, what

kind of limitations, what should the set up be like? does the cdc stand for? disease.ters for caller: we can follow those options. those people are really smart. if we follow the guidelines, i think that would be a good idea. i would really like to ask you to please do some issues on animal rights. i know they do that thing like where the thing is people are working in a warehouse. but there is legislation to prevent people from even talking about it. caller frome a montana. caller: good morning. of thing toome type

prove your christian merit. most common sense pastors and rabbis, mosts, will practice common sense, and the fact that the majority of their congregation is likely they to be of senior age, are going to proceed slowly and with caution. this is not to prove to religious conventions and the president of the united states that you are on his side or some nonsense like that. this is common sense. how many lives are worth you simply being able to go into a building, from my understanding au can worship christ in closet or anywhere. to go and hold hands and share

nuts?s, are you there is a pandemic. they just spoke about the bishops. you have clerks that are dying. en havey catholic clergyma died from this? this is nuts. who has espouse the least christian beliefs in his public life and likely this is your left on a pedestal, from what he says. and it is crunch time, how is he handling it? host: that was our caller from illinois. cdc.gov is the place to go to read the titans for communities --

communities.for they have a whole page on this issue. pointers,about some determine current mitigation levels and find protection for staff and especially those at higher risk. they talk about encouraging organizations that share facilities also follow these considerations. they do talk about churches here , interim guidance for communities of faith. there is a lot of information here that has come out just in the last couple of days. this is joe from cape canaveral in florida. should houses of worship reopen again? caller: absolutely. i am catholic, and from that , i am human, and

we are all going to die. but i believe that there is life after death through jesus christ . 's the previous caller ,omments, down here in florida they set up times, early times, for the grocery store, other 8:00s, between 7:00 and for the elderly or those with underlying conditions that would put them in harm's way, they --e the only one allowing allowed in the store. the bishop already put out great guidelines for humans going to

church. you do not hold hands anymore. you bow to each other when it is time to give peace. mass early ine a the morning. i used to take my elderly mother first everyday to the first mass . she passed away. that was a long time ago. so they could have masses just notthose people so they are in harm's way. comments therefrom joe. the is a write up from archdiocese of new york. statementput out this called faith forward, returning to public worship. they are breaking everything

down into phases paid phase i, churches open for private pair and confessions. celebration of the right of distributing all of the communion outside of mass and the celebration of daily and funeral masses with limited attendance, and a celebration of sunday mass with supervised attendance. finally they will work up to resumption of parish mass schedules and they will give complete descriptions of each phase. cityrchdiocese in new york preparing for reopening. here's a little bit more from the white house news conference friday. dr. birx was asked to respond to the president possible order about these institutions in deemed essential. >> what guidelines do you have

as they prepare to reopen? should it be appropriate nationwide right now? i have checked, all 50 states have on their websites with their new cases were over the last 24-48 hours. we are trying to get every state to do that by zip code. i believe a knowledgeable community can make judgments for themselves. i think each one of the leaders in the faith community should be in touch with their local health department to communicate and certainly people that have significant comorbidities, we want them protected. i know those houses up worship want to protect them. theyy ensuring that maybe cannot go this week if there is a high number of covid cases. maybe they wait another week, but there is a way to social distance like you are here in

places of worship. i think what we are trying to say with the cdc guidance is there is a way for us to work together to have social distancing and safety for people so that we decrease the amount of exposure that anyone would have. i say it that way because i know all of you, all americans, if they did not feel well they would not go to church that day. host: that was from friday read more of your calls, deborah from atlanta. what are your thoughts? caller: they should not be open in my opinion. typesple have different of services for people hold , and, and we have prayer we hugged each other. we greet each other, and mainly it is the older people. hardly any of the younger people

go to the black churches anymore. i just feel it is not safe. i am a senior myself, and i do not feel it is safe even with a mask. we just not ready yet to open. wheregive us an update on your governor stands on all of this. we know he had reopened churches a while back. caller: the governor has not really said anything about the churches not yet. i am waiting today to see what he says. earlierat about the caller who said it should be up to the congregations and there would be ways of doing this that don't involve physical interaction may be instead of shaking a hand you bow instead letter ora public document, maybe something on your phone you could read. what do you think of those kinds of modifications? caller: i like the online thing

because you do not need to be in the church building to worship god. until we know more about how this is going, i think it is too soon for the elderly, because that is what is mainly in the churches. my great concern is for them because i am an elderly person myself. i have been tested, so i am safe. that is how i feel. host: this is joseph from brooklyn, new york. i think this is the nice thing trump has done. it has been discussed walking down the streets, and seeing people getting drunk, not , and i went to tell you something.

at any market you look at, the second wave is the biggest wave honestly. all right. any market you look at, the second wave is the biggest way. i am going to stay inside and watch tv. host: more of the voices from the white house. the spokesman says the president and all americans went to see their churches safely open. not only is it good for the community but it is their right to worship freely without government intrusion. to administration continue partner with states to ensure hunger nations are properly protected and here is a recent .uling on the other side a religious gathering in person is not analogous to picking up groceries or food where people enter a building quickly and do not engage directly with others and leave when the task is

complete. it is more analogous to attending school or a concert, where people sit together and share a communal experience. this statement after a parishioner at a family church in fontana asked the los angeles judge to strike down the governor's rules governing churches. he ruled against her. this is dorothy from arkansas. good morning. caller: i think it is up to the individual as to whether they would go to a church service. the churches can be open, but it should be very careful, that the individuals know, because interventions are not very good in church. i know some have tried to open, and what they have had is two or three people catching the virus. host: when you say careful, what

do you mean? caller: careful means that you habits,r own physical and you know your own physical body as to whether you have blood pressure, diabetes or some pre-existing condition. that's what you need to be fully aware of because sometimes, like i have noticed, the biggest problem inside the church is the ventilation, the circulation of air. if you do not have a good ventilation space, then it is not going to work to have services. ,e have been doing services streaming on the phone. it has been coming out there. some people go to the building because they know their physical health. from fred is on the line ohio. good morning. caller: good morning.

technically i am a senior. i am 64. no one brings this up, whether i go to church or not, i feel i should be able to. i have a wish that i want to express. i do want to outlive my kids. it does not mean i want to go early. i do not want my kids to have a bad life because my life was extended so long. technically i am a baby boomer. it seems to me we are going to be babies to the end. we will impoverish the next generation, after we inherited a very good time from the greatest generation. you younger kids, we are not the greatest generation. our fathers and uncles saved you. i was thinking, i happen to know like my one uncle is in the

south pacific. i guess you are not excused from duty unless you had a fever of 102. you crossed swamps and all that. i think it was the other day some guy who was 72, he went out to buy a hamburger and complained about the people at the restaurant were not wearing masks or something like that. when i think of what my uncles went through, here we are baby boomers, concerned that our hamburger was not safe enough. fred from ohio. the pew research center tells us one quarter of u.s. adults say they faith has become stronger because of the pandemic while just 2% say their faith has become weaker. the majority says their faith has not changed much. that is from the pew research center. the associated press did a poll

as well regarding the coronavirus. this found that 30 1% of americans believe in god will strongly that the virus is a sign of god telling humanity to change with the same number feeling somewhat that way. protestants are more likely than other to believe that at 40 3% compared with 20% of catholics and mainline protestants. our caller from michigan. good morning. caller: good morning. seven: oronicles, teen, which my people shall humble themselves and pray and seek my faith and turn from their wicked ways, then will i hear from heaven and will heal their land. i went to go on, first

, now weans, chapter 12 are the body of christ. somerom ephesians, he gave profits and apostles and teachers for the protecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, so we all come into the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the son of god unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of christ that support that no more children be tossed to and fro, whereby they lie in wait. i want to say this every morning i open up the word of god because i've been taught the word of god. aneurysm.had a brain the lord healed me because of the word of god that lives inside of me.

during this pandemic i think --i people need to think listen to a program the other night on cnn and they were trying to figure out what to do when the schools open. the answer is the word of god. that is why jesus came, to restore our relationship with our heavenly father. until we go to him, into the unity of faith, faith is the substance of things hopeful, the evidence of things not seen. through faith we understand the words are framed by the word of god so things that you are seeing were not things that appear but without faith it is impossible to please god for he who comes to god must believe is and what does a farmer do with his seed? he plants it into the soil.

we know this to be the word of god. host: pardon me, we went to get some other voices on. this is marshall from clearwater, florida. should houses of worship be reopened? caller: i do. i would like to address the timesper, the new york this morning. i heard a report the other day about why we honor memorial day. i would just like to say that it is for those who gave their life in service for this country. i would like to see the names of people who gave their lives for their country on the front page. believe thathat, i

people in churches for the most part should be able to worship. the reason being is because all churches are different, and they have different times that they is a lot also there that have places where you can say shoot --safely social distance. you can make adjustments to your services. host: were you a regular attendee at services? caller: yes. host: we'll go back if they are reopened fully? caller: i am going to be going this morning, yes. but it will be opened up and most people will go to church and know the songs so they do not need the hymnals. you can make judgments about the young lady who called from georgia. you do not have to hold hands

preview can make those adjustments so this can be a safe thing. it really is a beautiful thing to be able to see someone you have not seen in two or three months to say i have missed you. host: you are in clearwater. i want to make clear, your church is open for services again? caller: yes. host: how long has that been the case? caller: a couple of weeks. host: have you heard about any problems, anyone getting sick? caller: no, i have not. everything,news and but i do not keep up so much with the local news. i have not heard of anybody. page orre is the front the headline of that washington post story.

tells governors of states to let church reopen. he threatened to overwrite any governors who do not comply with this demand opening a new cultural and political fight over when to lift public health restrictions that were put in place during the pandemic. trump did not specify what authority he had to back up this threat. officials declined to answer questions about what actions he plans to take. abouteaves this unclear how serious he is about following through on his declaration. there is one it shakes -- exchange from friday. here is a look. >> i go to church. , is it safe, and if it is not, is the president going to encourage that, or is

he agreeing with dr. birx that people should safe? >> it is safe if you do so in accordance with the guidelines which aren't laid out in detail about promoting hygiene , face coverings, if social distancing is not possible, it is recommended, promoting social distance. we lay them out meticulously. i am thankful we have a president that celebrates the first amendment, the same one that gives you the ability to you asked me questions, it is there to have the freedom of worship. so people can go to their churches and can celebrate what is a first amendment right in this country which is to pray to your god and practice faith. john.this is tell us why you do not think houses of worship should be reopened. caller: to hear the president

stand and act like he cares about the houses of worship, like one caller, you not heard this man proclaimed no kind of religion, nothing but the love of money. for him to talk like that makes me sick to my stomach. and i am not going to know building until every american can be tested, and we have a vaccination. the the lady said about seniors, i am 70 six. i have a chronic condition in my lung. i do not trust nothing that comes out of the white house. got young lady that just finished speaking, she is going her shehat trump tells is going to say. people need to wake up and understand. this man cares about his position and his power. these pastors open up their churches, there's going to be a new search come this fall and the flu comes in. they are following the

politicians not the doctors. they are following the politicians. the politicians got one thing in mind, money and power. my suggestion, they can open the churches if they want. the lord give us common sense. the guy that read the scriptures, everything he said that was true. if you take a look at the racism and the poverty, the homeless, the poor, the unemployed, what good does it do to have searches anyway -- churches when you see all of this poverty, and all of a sudden now open to churches is such a great deal? me personally, until every american can be tested, i call my doctor to be tested. they talkingme -- about every american being

tested. my doctor told me they did not have enough to test me. i'm not going to know church until i can be tested and there is a vaccination. tyler, texas.rom he has a different viewpoint. caller: good morning. i hope i can express myself clearly. it is not an opinion about whether it stays open are not. it is our law, and everybody swore an oath, and i am getting on a dry tribe -- diatribe. the constitution was to protect our god-given rights, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. , and also the only written guarantee on the --that means only

our legislators can write these laws and impose these lines, so when anybody in the executive law liket institutes a shelter at home or a six-month jail term or a fine if you leave your home, that is not the legislature. tot is not what we consented in that declaration. bishop herent, our all overexas, and some the world, issued an appeal for the church and the world that all people of goodwill, this is upocument that is right there with the declaration of independence. i tweeted it, and there is a

link and there is also a screenshot. , i am not athat catholic, but i had no clue that ass bishop knew his history well as he does. anyway, i would love to talk about this with you, but i will let everybody else. capitolags at the u.s. and elsewhere around town and the country are at half-staff after the white house, the president ordered such a couple of days ago as the nation gets closer to the 100,000 level in terms of deaths from coronavirus. the senate will be out of session this coming week for the memorial day week. the house plans to come back for work this wednesday and

thursday. members for the first time will be able to vote by proxy meaning they would send a letter to the clerk of the house explaining they are letting another member vote for them in the chamber this wednesday and thursday. that is the first time that has ever happened. .e will be tracking that as far as legislation the house fisa to take up the reauthorization and also the paycheck protection program and we will be covering that later. mike from ohio is calling now. good morning. what do you make of this conversation so far? should houses of worship be reopened? to them, notis up me, but one of my questions is where was god when the cavemen was in the church -- search a fire?

playsnce of the unknown on the imagination and that is one way to control the masses. trust, and god we , i thinkt looks to me we need more research and maybe they got together in masses and study that about the here and now and not worry about nothing happening hereafter. that is my thoughts. you have a good day. host: john is calling from philadelphia. what would you like to say? why do you think houses of worship should be reopened? caller: good morning. happy memorial day to all of the listeners. why do i think yes? churches should of been open

three weeks after the shutdown first because the south set an example by the one pastor having church in the parking lot. examplesrches set bad by crowding in. if we did not learn in the first on,e weeks to put a mask say six feet away, and the guy passing the basket has a six-foot pole on it, they could have arranged churches to this time period. like they could have started in the parking lot and could have , you and had extra masses stay over there farther away, and you stay this way. someone in the middle. they could've social distanced that way. you do not need church to have god, but some people do need church to have god.

that is their right. the church ease could have stayed open just like a golf course as long as you practice social distancing. they're not going to get no vaccine for a long time. it looks like that. i think we could have opened as somespots in a way people just do not want to learn and some do. that is all i have to say. have a good day. host: some other voices out there, this is from rabe mark on the pandemic -- the pandemic. virtuality is making anyone into a can be near. this is a radical comment. dan -- ordained rabbi. sociologistice of a

at duke university. there is this thing people say, a can be good. people want to come back to religion. it is just the opposite. recessions are hard on churches because of the financial impact. in new york.ichard good morning. what is going on? host: tell us your thoughts. caller: i think church buildings should not be open, but i think people have the right to worship. i agree with the previous caller who mentioned setting up a church in parking lots and maybe like outdoor amphitheaters. with that be effective, do you think? caller: completely effective. i live in queens and my grandmother is 82.

previous to covid, she would be in church we are four times a week. i worry about her going to a small building with a ton of people. i am 33. i am just looking out for everybody and making sure everybody stays healthy. constitutionally, there is no way you can tell people they cannot worship. , and i do notan think we should be telling people they cannot worship. but definitely outside. those who do not want to go to the physical church, a lot of folks are taking part in virtual services. we will take the next call and look at some video from washington d.c.. this is may 17, where they were holding a virtual surface, one of many happening around the country as an alternative for people.

rich is calling from tennessee. i think that churches should be able to reopen. consider theshould cases in the area. we are in a large county, and we have five high schools and nine middle schools, and yet we only , 50 recoveredses and only two deaths. we streamed for a while with our church. it reopened three weeks ago. i could recommend some precautions like what we are doing. service and anng evening service. the congregation is divided alphabetically. that is rotated so you get to see different people. today we are going to the evening service.

ws by cautione tape, and after each service they are cleaned. all of the hymnals have been removed. everything is printed off on paper, and the bulletins are disposed of. out, alongre printed with other things that are recited. that is all disposed of. , dropped off made as people come in rather than passing plates. hvac is turned off during the service of the air is not circulating, and the people are dismissed by rose like he would see at a wedding or a funeral -- like you would see at a

wedding or a funeral. they go outside and get off the step and so forth. basically answered any other questions i was going to ask you. carolina, youorth think that the houses should not be reopened, but what you make of the last caller who said it is an area where they have not had a lot of sickness from coronavirus, and there were ways that they think are safe, what do you make of that? i look at what the gentleman just said, for the ones that have not received the virus but the ones who did and died, i think they might think differently. that godme to say is reigns on the just and unjust. that means the very least shall

be deceived because you got a person telling you that churches should be open, and i guarantee you you would not see that person in a video today worshiping god in the church. i am the church. got said you are thinking of brick and more, but he said i am not. i am thinking about this body. her body is the temple of almighty god and where you are is where jesus would be. jesus in you is greater than the heathens of the world. if you got a pre-existing condition, if you taking any medication, why in the world would you go inside a church when you know that god is always in control, but at the same time you would not give up your medication. because you know that god is with you, but you got to hold onto something that is right. what is right here is all churches should be shut down

said, like the gentleman some kind of vaccine is made. if you do not, you will surely die because you been pregnant to the facts that is around you. --ecause you been rent ant to the facts around you. i say go to church, but i know you will not be on this earth if you do not wear a mask very long because -- host: time for a couple more calls. first, governor cuomo from his briefing yesterday. governor ar from the bit later. let's get a call from walter from st. john's in arizona, on the line for those who feel houses of worship should be

reopened. caller: good morning. opened,e they should be but i think they're moving about 30-45 days to soon. it is very counterintuitive based on what is going on. it is obvious that we have a serious problem. we are working full-scale right now to get a vaccine. it is wrapped up in all countries, to create a vaccine in mass production. it will be available soon, 45-60 days maybe. opening at this time i think is strictly political, not practical for the public. break will occur if you the quarantine at this point. the: so you are tying it to vaccine being readily available, correct?

caller: i figure it is just around the corner, and then everything opens. everyone can get the vaccine, but there are two points which i have learned. i watch this carefully. bits of information, the coronavirus has been around for a long time. dogs and cattle have been vaccinated against it for 40 years. it was only between animals. about three weeks ago, i will heard one good report, and i hope you do not mind, it was on cbs, they mentioned that they believe the coronavirus in humans was circulating for three-five years but they did not catch it. they saw a large spike in flu and pneumonia deaths and they finally identified the new strain of coronavirus.

had to step in full-scale, but -- host: can you get to your second point? caller: i'm just saying it had jumped up to the point where they investigated and they found out that it had leaked from animals to humans. they are working full-scale on this vaccine. very soon they will have it in mass production, and then everything can open. host: last couple of calls, thomas from new jersey. fort lauderdale is coming next. thomas, go ahead. caller: i think the church should not be open because the bible declares the kingdom of god is not physical, but it is within you. if it is in you, you do not have to be in a building to worship.

those that worship god do it in spirit and truth. not have to be in the church. you can see how the preachers dress and show their suits and their pathetic words, but they are not helping the people themselves. how many not have to be in the church. teachers are really helping the people at times like these? no. you.he church begin in you can stay home and worship god. they do the same thing every sunday. they scream and holler and yell, and he did not understand half of these preachers. host: our last call. good morning. fromr: my name is deborah stanford.

i was calling into say i believe the church should not open at this point of the stage of the virus. i believe they were having church outside and getting together in cars. i remember when i was young we used to do that. i think they need to keep doing that for now until we can clear some of these people that does have the virus because i woke up this morning, seven people in my town has it overnight. thank you to everybody who called the past hour. in a row, because we wanted to get your thoughts following the president's news conference. we will take a short timeout and talk about the paycheck protection program. our guest will be can really weisul of -- kimberly weisul of about theine, talking status of the paycheck protection program.

with joelwill talk kotkin about how urban centers can be affected by the coronavirus pandemic. ♪ >> monday, memorial day, at 9:00 a.m. eastern on c-span, live coverage from arlington national cemetery of the laying of the reefs at the tomb of the unknown by the vice president, mike pence. at noon eastern, president trump and the first lady will participate in an memorial day ceremony at fort mchenry. watch live monday on c-span and c-span.org. or listen on the free c-span radio app. monday night on "the yel's luther,"

lowe. >> google is steering all of this traffic to itself and, therefore, in a sense, d de-oxygenating the entire world wide web and stifling innovation and, ultimately, harming consumers because they are not getting the best information from across the world internet. >> watch "the communicators" at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span 2. "q&a," historian jeff guinn talks about his book "the vagqabonds." >> the idea is that they would go check out the everglades. it was pointed out to them that there is not really any roads there and it is dangerous and there are alligators and worse and people could die.

and aip lasted a day half. there was a monsoon. there were snakes. there were alligators. they fled. but they liked the idea. so it came about they would take a trip once a year if they could but with a little bit of planning so disaster would be less looming. >> tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern "q&a."pan's "washington journal" continues. host: joining us today is kimberly weisul, editor at large for inc.com. we are here to talk about the patient protection program. explain the paycheck protection program and give us a status report on how this part of the new law is doing. guest: thanks for having me on. the paycheck protection program,

right now, there is money available for businesses who need it. what it allows is a loan backed by the fda that will allow you to pay your employees potentially while your business is still closed. the first round of money for that program was $349 billion, and it ran out just after under two weeks, about 13 days. the second round of money, we believe there is still about $100 billion left. a lot of people think the program is over or that it is not available to them, but for business owners for whom this is a good solution for being able to keep their employees on, that is no money available, and they should apply if they think it will work for them. host: what did you learn in part one of this program? what needs improvement? guest: part one of the program come a lot of dissatisfaction was centered on the way it was executed. it was billed as a first-come,

first-served program, but the banks were quickly overwhelmed with tens of thousands of applications in just a few hours, so they decided they would focus on their customers first, which come on the face of it, makes sense, but they focused on customers with whom they already had deep and substantial lending relationships. practice, the largest customers got their money first, and some of the smaller businesses or those that did not have a steady relationship with the bank were not able to get money from that first. the fda also had a difficult time. rules were intentionally written so a larger number of companies that normally apply for the sba thatams could apply, but unwittingly wracked in public companies that probably should not have gotten the money. so those were some of the problems. now, as people have had more

time to look at the program and tried to use the money from it, they are realizing that there is trouble with the design as well, and that is what some of the more recent legislation is trying to fix. host: our guest is editor at large at inc. magazine and inc.com, kimberly weisul. here are what the phone lines will be. if you are a small business owner, call (202) 748-8000. if you are an employee at a small business, call (202) 748-8001. everyone else, (202) 748-8002. we are talking here about the paycheck protection program. it is now in phase two. members of congress are looking to make additional changes to this. before we get to calls for our guest, we will take a look at some of the dialogue from the senate floor as they were heading out of session, trying to make some changes. they ultimately did not.

[video clip] specifically, the paycheck protection program extension act that we are introducing today would do the following. it would allow borrowers 16 weeks to use their loan plans instead of eight weeks. small businesses could choose the period that they believe works best to coincide with the reopening of their local economy. so some small businesses took the loans very early, thinking that the shutdowns would not or that the pandemic would be on the way down by now, which it is, in some states, thank goodness, but not in all. in more faxlt ability.

of would 16 weeks instead eight to use the loan funds. second, it extends the deadline to apply for a ppp loan from june 30 to december 31 of this year. fact thats reflexive for longer ined virtually every state than we when we were drafting the bill in march. third, the bill will allow borrowers to use loan funds to purchase personal protective toipment for employees and pay for investments needed to reopen safely. weisul, senator collins laying out the details there, but give us a more --cific sense of where

kimberly weisul, senator collins laying out that details there. guest: it was disappointing to see this not go through. then point thing to understand is no matter if it is in this bill or the heroes bill, which will take longer, there is broad bipartisan agreement that part of this need to be changed. right now, you have eight weeks from the time you get your money to use it, which means you can essentially keep your employees on payroll for eight weeks. aset senator pointed out, -- the senator pointed out, it looks like a bridge to a cliff or a lot of businesses. she mentioned that people got the money early -- that was not necessarily there choice. there was wide agreement that it was going to run out, so it was erased for people to get it while it was still available -- so it was a race for people to get it while it was still available. another part that was not in the

clip is this requirement that you need to spend 75% of the money on payroll. at a time when a lot of businesses are having trouble getting their employees back or they do not want to be paying their employees to do nothing if they then will not have the money to pay them when they are reopening, that 75% hurdle is looking really difficult to clear. that is not something that requires congressional action. actually, the treasury could do it, because they are the ones who implemented that rule. but they see no signs of wanting to change it. those are the two things business owners have had most trouble, the eight week period in which to use the money and that 75% requirement. there is broad bipartisan support on changing both of them. the problem is the earliest companies to get the money are already very close to the end of their eight week period. so whether or not they have been able to use that money in the way stipulated by the law, they really need rarity, so we would really like you this, hopefully,

changed, as soon as possible. if it does not change, again, at least people have clarity. it will probably mean that second amount of money will not go out to businesses as quickly, because, as people realize they cannot use it the way it is intended, they are becoming much more reluctant to seek the funds. host: that's go to calls. victor from alabama, you are on the line with kimberly weisul. caller: good morning. host: yes, sir. caller: c-span's host: yes, victor, you are on live. we are talking about the paycheck protection program. do you have a question or comment? caller: yes, sir. i just told to a young lady who told me i would be next in line. host: you are here. go ahead. caller: let me turn the tv down. i have one question for the young lady. peopleoing to be ok for

to pay back money that they have already earned -- i understand where you're coming from about paying the money, but shouldn't small business pay the money back? how are they going to come out of the hole if they are already in the whole -- hole? how do they come out if they have to pay it back? host: thank you. guest: you bring up a great point, which is that if the business uses 75% of the money to pay their employees, and their are few other allowed uses for that remaining 25%, than the loan can be forgiven. that is the reason people were stampeding to get the loan when they first became available. that is why this is so important to small businesses. it is for the exact reason you mentioned to you and many are concerned that, if they do not use it in the eight weeks or if

they do not you 75% of it on payroll, they will not be able to get it forgiven. most of them are not in a position to take on more debt, even though that would be a two year loan at 1%. what they need is loan forgiveness. it is important that these rules are written or the legislation is changed in the way you can get it. because they are in a whole, and having more debt will not help. andhey are in a hole, having more debt will not help. host: and talking about payrolls with small business owners, they can pay themselves, correct? guest: yes. host: are there any rules and assertions? guest: yes. you have to pay ourselves and your employees essentially what you pay them in a comparable eight week period last year. you all of a sudden cannot give everyone raises an use in the last week. you cannot prepay expenses to get them into the eight week period. of if you look at the spirit

the law, the idea is for you to be able to pay yourself what you would have been making if this had not happened, and to figure that out, you use a period from last year. then, you are allowed to use it for yourself or pay and for your employees. if you are a 1099 contractor or if you are self-employed, you can use it. if you are in a partnership, talk to your accountant, you can also use it. under 5013or-profit, c can use it. can the money be used for other forms of compensation as well? maybe bonuses or health care expenses? be.t: yes, they can with bonuses, it has to be reasonable. you are allowed to give someone a promotion if they have earned it. you are allowed to give some reasonable amount of hazard pay,

if you have essential workers. other types of compensation count. employerntioned, the care. you can replace tips. go to new york city, john. good morning. guest: good morning. llc company since 2013. llcund my -- i file my taxes every year. can you hear me? host: we can. keep going. caller: so i file every year. accept schwab does not applications, so i couldn't submit, so i went to the only other bank where i have a personal account, citibank. citibank told me i couldn't submit the application because i did not have a business account, so i have no way to really apply to it. i did call -- c-span had the sba

person a wild back. i wrote to him, called him -- i did not hear a word from him either. i tried calling my senator. there is a whole process to standing in email, which i will try to do, to see if they can help me. i just would like to know where i can call in. guest: this is another problem with the program. i am glad you brought it up. a lot of banks are no longer accepting applications, because they are the ones who are going to have to determine the forgiveness, and they are starting to realize how much work that is. you do not have to be a customer of a bank, or currently, to submit an application. i would go to a community bank near you and find out if they are accepting applications. if they are not, there are a number of online lenders that are. we have a list of them on our website, inc.com, but i can tell you we have heard, still, people getting loans from intuit,

they arepaypal -- doing a lot of loans, especially for smaller companies. and they are set up with the technology to get them through quickly. i would encourage you to look for online lenders. some of them are lending money themselves. some of them are in partnership the bank. some of them have been approved by the sba. some are working with partners who have been approved. i think it will go faster and you will get more transparency if you go with someone who has been approved themselves. but, from the very beginning, the online lenders wanted to be involved in this. at the later stages of the program, they are proving important, so i would go check that out. host: just a basic question -- you have written to many business owners that just do not understand if they are eligible and they may be reluctant to pursue this -- what would you tell those folks? aret: they probably eligible. the law has been written very

broadly. there are lots of people and lots of businesses who would not normally be eligible for sba -backed programs, and they are eligible for this one. 1099 employees and contractors, sole proprietors -- you only have to have payroll last year. you did not have to be profitable. when the banks, your online lender, the sba looks at these applications, it is not like a traditional loan. the idea is that it will be forgiven. they need to know you can legitimately pay employees with this loan. no matter how small your business is, you should take a look at this. franchisees are often not eligible -- they are eligible under this program. same for small nonprofits, same for partnerships. really, it is very broad. especially for smaller companies and partnerships, who thought they were not eligible, that is a reason there is still money left.

a small business owner in leesburg, florida. what work do you do? caller: good morning. my wife is a nurse practitioner, and we have a virtual practice on phone that she responds to people with virtual care. -- i am not that hearing you. then just keep going, and you will be able to hear our guest. caller: ok. the big question i have -- i am also president of our local eagles club, and we are a 501(c) 8. the bank told us we are not eligible for the payroll protection plan, because we are (c) 8. forave 10 employees we pay really minimal tasks, but we have to continue doing that, so i just do not know why we are not eligible for the (c) 8.

the bank has told us that they showed that we are not eligible. i sent a letter to rick scott, our senator here. he says he is looking into this. host: thank you. what would you tell him? guest: unfortunately, from my understanding, his bank is correct. it is only the(c)3's. but in the heroes act, they are 's.king to expand it to (c)6 but they are conscious of the fact they have left out a number of not for profits by only limiting it to (c)3's. for now, unfortunately, your bank is correct. host: what else can you tell us about the heroes act which has only passed the house, not the senate? what else would it do to the paycheck protection program? guest: as we said, it would change the amount of time that you have to use the money, which is huge.

it would change the percentage that you need to use on payroll. it would also extend it, which is interesting. the last application was supposed to be 30 june, i believe. now, it will go to december 31. that implies they will be money left, which no one expected. right now, if your loan is not forgiven, you need to pay a back within two years. the heroes act would potentially extend that to five. and this is a bit in the weeds, but if you keep your employees on, you can get an employee production tax credit. right now, if you also get a ppp loan, you cannot have the employee retention tax credit or they would change that so you would get both at the same time, or you could potentially get both at the same time. it would also try to carve out money specifically for businesses with fewer than 10 employees, specifically for not-for-profit, and also for underrepresented communities.

those are some of the things specific to the paycheck protection program that the heroes act -- again, it will be negotiated before all of this comes to light, but it is in proposal. smalllet's go to ron, business owner. what do you own? caller: i have a membership services business, where we try to encourage people to use cashback, which would ultimately regenerate money into the economy. the way that ppp is set up now, one would have to certify they have an employee. do you know what about companies that want to hire people and try to offset the problems and try to help the country in that way? do you know if the ppp will assist those wanting to hire people? host: thank you. guest: that is a good question. i do not know, frankly. the ppp is looking at preserving

the employment levels you already have. there is talk about some sort of hiring incentive in the next round in the senate. at this point, i am not really sure how that would work under ppp. it is really looking at preserving the payroll you have now. host: to shelby in tennessee. ander: hi, c-span all-americans, and happy memorial day weekend. thing is, in my local area, a lot of businesses have -- host: keep going, if you can. inler: a lot of businesses my area are between a hard rock -- a rock and a hard place.

and i agree with the male that says how are they going to pay back into hire their own employees, a lot of them. it's not been worked out good. hard decision, response ability for all of them -- responsibility for all of them. guest: she is correct it has not been worked out well. however, the intent of the law and the guidance we have now is if they use 75% of that money towards paychecks, they will not have to pay it back, because congress understood that these businesses have really been hit hard by this. many of them do not have good choices, and they do not necessarily want them to go further into debt. if they can pay 75% of the money

they got from the loan to their employees, the other 25% can go towards rent, utilities, or mortgages on the place of business, then they will not have to pay it back. that is why so many businesses were interested in the program. intersection the between unemployment benefits and money being received from people through this ppp. it took several weeks for the ppp to come into play. explain how that works for the average worker. guest: this has been very complicated. hasbusiness owners, the ppp the potential to turn them into ifalternate source of income businesses for workers, many of them have the option of a much more generous unemployment package than they used to have. the ppp gives business owners the money to hire workers back, but we saw a study from the

university of chicago that took something like 68% of people eligible for unemployment now are getting more for on them than they would get if their business could hire them back. they are getting more unemployment than they were getting before. for business owners, it is very difficult to figure out what to do here, because some of their employees would be better off on unemployment. the problem is, of course, unemployment does not last forever. a lot of business owners who are insurancefer health want their employees to keep that, and for unemployment, they generally cannot. if it is a short-term furlough, some business owners are working to keep their people on, but that is an important piece of that. host: let's hear from michael in cleveland, again, a small business owner. tell us about your business and what your comment or question is for our guest. caller: yes, good morning.

we were deemed essential in ohio because we are in the automotive business. it is a small operation. two full-time, three part-time. we do receive the loan. i am not exactly sure how they ourulated that based off of 941's for the past year. but the labor cost, the 75%, is at 940 and 941? comp. all included in that cost? guest: thank you. in general, that is your 941. it can also be health insurance and a few other benefits. i do not believe that it is worker's comp, however. there is a fair amount in that definition of pay, but it is not

everything. it is a little tricky, because you get an amount that is based on two and half months of payroll, but then you only have eight weeks to use it as opposed to the 10 weeks you got a based on -- i know it is confusing. it is confusing for everyone. it is one of the reasons they are looking to extend the time period. mike is in madison heights, virginia, a small business employee. tell us who you work for, what you do, and what your question is. my question is these small businesses have got these loans to pay their employees for hours. so what do you do with a company that is still working and charging the customers? would that not be double dipping for the companies to be still performing work, you still see

construction companies running up and down the road, charging companies to pay, yet the employees, some of them only get 25 hours a weekend -- a week and cannot draw and implement like as opposed to, but the company has got the money. host: good question there. guest: for one thing, in order to get the money, the company has to certify that they need it. that has been very confusing, because no one knew exactly how desperate you had to be to say that you needed the money. people were worried, if they had a line of credit perhaps, could they get the money? since then, treasury has said that if you got less than $2 million, you are assumed to be acting in good faith. there are some states that have something called workshare that allow certain -- both on a plumbing and pay, like on implement for reduced hours, as it were. and it is true that the business

owner could potentially be getting some revenue while also getting help from the ppp to pay payroll. many businesses are not going out for clip, even if they are open. payroll is typically a biggest' second expense. there is rent, the cost of overhead, supplies -- so although the ppp, of course, is crucial to these businesses for paying payroll, it is not the only thing the business has to pay for, and they have to certify there is a need for it. treasury has been very active in saying they will be investigating when they think there was not a need. , for folks who are running businesses, who want to take part in this program, how is the sba performing right now? are they big enough to handle all of these requests and inquiries coming along? guest: i think, now, it is

working fairly well. however, when there was really that rush for companies to get the money, the sba was asked to approve, in two weeks, something like 20 times the number of loans that they normally do in a year. so you can imagine how that works. the sba uses a system called e-tran to provide origination numbers, and it was routinely overwhelmed. the short answer is they are nowhere near big enough. the long answer is somehow they did it, got to the first two weeks, and now it seems to be working relatively well. host: what can you tell us about lending banks and their involvement in all of this? are they getting what you consider to be regular fees as part of this process? guest: so the banks have also been overwhelmed. they only come at the beginning, wanted to work with their existing customers. hundred 50,000 dollars, they make a 5% fee,

which sounds generous, but the average loan size was about $200,000. now, it has come down to about $37,000. a lot of loans in the past week were looking at $17,000. so they are making about $850 originating that loan, and they will also have to figure out the forgiveness on the other end. on the other hand, if they are doing an 8 million dollar loan, it may take the same amount of work them, they will make 1% on that, and come out a lot better. for banks to work with their larger clients, it works out quite well for them sometimes, even though the percentages are lower. for smaller clients, it is not really clear that they are doing well on this. this is really hard to say, because the banks were essentially interested for running a relief program for which they were also prepared.

that is part of the dissatisfaction around the implementation around it was either not fail or not done well or their portals did not work, and a lot of that is true. on the other hand, the scope and speed of this was really unprecedented. i think part of the reason there is so much more money left is that loan sizes are going down, people understand better that this will work for them, and everyone is able to handle it in a more orderly fashion. host: time for a few more calls for our guest. tom is in florida. tell us your situation and your question. caller: my wife and i operate a business that contracts with state office supply, and our employees are actually 1099 contractors. package.t paid by the right now, we are delivering very few packages. butrive just as many miles,

because they are 10 99, i do not qualify for any money from the ppp. myi was to just shut business down, then my contractors could apply by themselves under the ppp, but then i lose my contract and all of my trucks will sit there and the banks will come and repossess them, so i feel like i am falling into a cap there. guest: there is somewhat of a gap there. if your employees are making less, you do not have two lay them off or fire them or anything like that for them to get some sort of compensation. if they can certify that they are making less and they have been hurt by this, they can apply for the ppp on their own, which is new in this program and has been confusing for a lot of people. normally, you think of that as your cost, and therefore you would apply for ppp on their behalf, but the way it works is

they apply, and they do not have to have zero income to apply for it, but they do have to be able to make it through the paperwork and the loan application process, which is streamlined compared to a traditional loan but is still a hurdle. host: patrick is an bardstown, kentucky. caller: good morning morning. if there is a second stimulus, and -- i am curious if there is a second stimulus and if congress has passed it yet. he is referring to the heroes act. right now, maybe july 4, we will see something. we do not really know -- the crux of the negotiation seems to be over unemployment, because it is historically very generous. the heroes act would continue the $600 a week enhancement to unemployment. republicans do not want to see that. it will take a while -- not in

historical times a while, but it will not happen in the next couple of weeks. oversighthas direct over this whole process? guest: this comes from treasury. at the beginning of this program, when they discover that some public companies have taken these loans out when they had, potentially, ample sources of other funds, they were talking about investigations. they have been very vocal that they will look at the larger loans. but about a week and a half ago, a week ago, they said that, if you had a loan of less than $2 million, there was a safe harbor there, and you are thought to be acting in good faith. but it will be treasury and the irs. int: let's hear from judith florida. a lot of florida callers this morning. caller: good morning. i am in the catering business, which, of course, we happen completely shut down since the end of march. we have not been able to have weddings, events, high school

graduation events. we are still kind of out of business. even though we can have something now, people are still scared and are canceling. i am the owner of the business. i am not officially on the payroll. all i do is take a draw at the end of the month, what i can, to pay my bills. we did receive the loan, thank you. and i am paying the employees to keep them on staff. but i've been told by my accountant that i am not allowed to take one penny for myself, which i have not, so at this point, i am totally in a mess just to take a loan to pay my mortgage and my bills, because i have been three months now with totally no income. is that correct or am i allowed to take something for myself? host: we touched on this earlier. what would you tell judith? guest: first off, i am not an accountant. but i've spoken to many accountants who say that if you take that draw on a pay one form, which is how most people take it if they recorded as income on their taxes, you

should be able to pay yourself that amount. seensure your account has you through a lot of difficult times. i would go back to them and check and get a second opinion. on the lineget ed from new jersey, a small business owner. what is your business? caller: i have a small consulting business. i did not start the business until early this year. i thought i heard the lady speaking saying that it was based upon last year's income that you are paying people. host: can you clarify? guest: it depends on the exact date. i would check into that. if you started last year, you would absolutely be eligible, but i think it is into the very beginning of this year, technically. i would look into that. if you started in january, you will be ok. if you started in march, i am not so sure. host: joe from staten island, new york. caller: good morning.

i am calling up about people applied to the sba loan, and the people were getting their money to take care of their workers. say, arekers, let's the people also filing for unemployment and getting the , and that is not doing the right thing in being fair? is that happening? guest: just like the banks who were trying to administer the ppp, on a plumbing offices are also overwhelmed. you are not allowed to do both those things. if you are being paid by an employer, whether it is for ppp or something else, you are able to also get unemployment. the exception would be if your hours happen cut and you are getting less. in some states, you can get a little bit of unemployed for the

lost hours and therefore the lost income, but if you are getting paid through ppp or anything else, you can also get unemployment, generally. host: as we wrap up, what should small business employees and owners be thinking about the future of this program? guest: it looks like they will be money left for quite a while. at the beginning, people were really rushing to get it. i would take a hard look at it, take a look at when you might be able to reopen and at what level , like can you make money if you have reduced headcount in your restaurant? to some projections, see if you as it isay the money intended. if so, you may be able to get it. you may have to go through an online lender if your bank is no longer participating, but it does look like there will be money here for people who need it, so i encourage them to look into it. host: kimberly weisul is editor at large for inc. magazine at inc.com.

appreciate the time and the helpful information for our viewers. guest: my pleasure. thank you. int: just about 8:40 a.m. washington, d.c. at 9:00, we will bring in our next guest, joel kotkin of chapman university. before we do that, we will take more of your calls. we will continue with the theme we started the program on -- should houses of worship be reopened? the president called them essential and is strongly encouraging houses of worship to reopen. he says he can overrule governors, which sparked big debate over what powers the president have versus governors. just a simple question, though. should houses of worship reopen? if yes, (202) 748-8000. if even -- if you don't think so, (202) 748-8001 is your number. and chapman university's joel

kotkin will talk about urban centers in the u.s. and how they could be affected by the coronavirus pandemic. we will be right back in a couple minutes. ♪ >> monday, memorial day, at 9:00 a.m. eastern on c-span, live coverage from arlington national cemetery of the laying of the wreath at the tomb of the unknown by vice president mike pence. at noon eastern, president trump and the first lady will participate in a memorial day ceremony at mchenry -- fort mchenry. watch live monday on c-span and c-span.org, or listen on the free c-span radio app. >> monday night on "the yelp's luther" lowe and why he thinks google

has betrayed the internet. >> google is stealing all of this traffic to itself and, in a ating the worldn wide web and stifling innovation and, ultimately, harming consumers, because they are not getting access to the best information from across the worldwide internet.

they if you think yes, should be reopen, call (202) 748-8000. isyou not, (202) 748-8001 the number for you to call. announcinggovernors a statewide reopening of religious gatherings is in new york.

here is governor andrew cuomo. [video clip] >> we are working with religious institutions. right now, they can have up to 10 people with strict social distancing guidelines at religious gatherings. we have askedthem to consider drive-in and parking lot -- we have asked them to consider drive-in an parking lot services. but we will be working with our interfaith advisory council. it has representatives of that religious community across the state, all different religions. getderstand their desire to back to religious ceremonies as soon as possible. it. former altar boy, i get even during this time of stress, and when people are so anxious and confused, i think those religious ceremonies can be very comforting. but we need to find out how to

do it and do it safely and smartly. the last thing we want to do is have a religious ceremony that winds up having more people infected. religious ceremony, by definition, is a gathering, right? a large number of people coming together. westchester, the first hotspot, that religious ceremonies can be dangerous. we all want to do the same thing. the question is how do we do it and how do we do it smartly and efficiently? i will talk with numbers of the religious community in doing just that, and i am sure we can come up with a way that does it intelligently. host: governor andrew cuomo there. here is a headline -- from politico, the president ordered states to open churches. can he do that? they write that there are clashes with state and local authorities, but his own justice

department's actions are exposing the challenges involved in trying to ring the federal government's power to bear on this issue. the president's sleeping announcement that states must treat houses of worship as essential and ordering them open right now is met with a now familiar chorus of reaction from critics and legal commentators that he has no authority to issue such a directive. xander is calling from washington. you think houses of worship should be reopened. tell us why and how. caller: well, i think they should be allowed to be open, and i do not really care how, because i am not religious. i heard your section over an hour ago, and a lot of people had suggestions about how the churches could be opened up and be safe. i would appreciate it if you would ask people who say those things, if they walked into a church and it is not the way

they think it ought to be, with a actually leave? -- would they actually leave? thank you. host: we will look to ask that question later on. let's see who is calling now from indianapolis. is it mavin? indianapolis, are you there? do not hear indianapolis. let's try fred in marysville, washington. are you there? caller: i am. host: go ahead. caller: i think, if it has been deemed acceptable for us to go to grocery stores and hardware stores, etc., i just think it seems reasonable, at some point, we have to loosen up. plus, at some point, we have to trust people to use good judgment and separate, and and our church, we can do that. host: what about that earlier caller who said if you go and you do not like the way things are set up, would you leave? caller: i would. point,i think, at some

we have to turn over trust into individual citizens. so i would leave. host: ok. thanks for calling. let's hear from texas now. caller: good morning. says the the bible it says flee, when you see the people in the altar. host: and what does that mean, moving forward? .aller: it is simple theays flee, when you see people in the altar. isn't that clear? host: alright pay let's move to california, kathleen on the line. what do you think? caller: i think there are so

many of us are missing our family, our church family, and i agree with the other caller that we are allowed to go to grocery stores and stand in line, different hardware stores, liquor stores, but we cannot go to church? i just feel we should be allowed to continue with our faith. host: here is the president from his news conference friday, making his announcement. [video clip] >> some governors have deemed liquor stores and abortion clinics as essential but have left out churches and other houses of worship. it is not right. so i am correcting this injustice and calling houses of worship essential. i call upon governors to allow our churches and places of worship to open right now. there is any question, they will have to call me, but they will not be successful in that

call. these are places that hold our society together and keep our people united. the people are demanding to go to church and synagogue, go to their mosque. many millions of americans embrace worship as an essential part of life. the ministers, pastors, rabbis, leaders,d other faith we will make sure they are convocations are safe as they gather and pray. congregations are safe as they gather and pray. they love their congregations. they love their people. they do not want anything bad to happen to them or anybody else. the governors need to do the right thing and allow these very important, essential places of faith to open right now. for this weekend. if they do not do it, i will override the governors. in america, we need more prayer, not less.

-- host:here's politico reaction from anthony romero from the aclu. soundssident's statement more like grandstanding rather than any actual and was one of law protecting religious freedom. the governors are the ones in the saddle on most of these judgment calls, notwithstanding the president's thoughts and desires. more of your calls now. michigan. you are on the line for those who do not think houses of worship should reopen. tell us why. caller: like they were saying, sit you go into church, you very close to the person next to you. it is just like a packed church. believe the not president has sat in a packed church. coloristst of the

this morning said the church can be open, it does not have to be packed area people can be spaced out the same way they may be at a business or a supermarket or something like that. is that enough? in all of the churches i've seen, they have been packed. you could get all of the people up in there, but not -- i mean you cannot get all the people up in the church, because if you social distancing, that is half of the people that go to church. know --d you want, you everybody will not be able to be there. and then i would like to see his family in a church. host: thanks for calling. letty is calling from texas. go ahead. not,r: i believe we should not at this time.

the reopening they have done so far here in north texas, dallas fort worth area, has created almost double, triple, the amounts of coronavirus and one day that they had been seeing, want toe who participate in a religious ceremony can do it from their own home. you do not even have to be in church if you want to pray. this is what it is about, praying. and spiritual, you know, connecting the people. you can do that with technology today. host: have you done anything online with any religious services? caller: no, i haven't. i mean, if i want to, i can just put on the television. honestly, i just pray my own personal prayers. host: let me ask you this question -- when will you know that it is time? what will you be looking for?

caller: i think they need to give this time, the reopening as it is, if at least 30 days to see where it goes from here. even with expanded cases, with the reopening going on now, it takes a while to know, to get an account and figure out how many more people are really being admitted to hospital, etc. socials, you might have distancing, but they sing a lot -- you're always spreading germs. even when things were not like they are now, people were packing and coughing and sneezing. it is just not say. people need to remember, yes, they want to argue that it is their freedom, but you know what? it is our freedom, too, not to get sick. that is the way i look at things. host: thank you for calling. let's hear from william from

jefferson township, different viewpoint. tell us why you think houses of worship should be reopened. presidentll, like the said, if walmart is considered home depot, lowe's, are considered as essential, the people that call in -- church, feeding the spirit, is just as essential as feeding the body. the people that are regular churchgoers are the people that miss it. the people that call in and say no, they do not go to church. they do not care. and they think that religious people will spread it to everybody else. nonsense. they are just as cautious as everybody else is, probably more. that is all i have to say. host: following up, there was a u.s. district judge who wrote

this -- and in person religious gathering is not analogous to picking up groceries, food, or medicine, where people enter a building quickly, do not interact with others except at point-of-sale, and leave once the task is done. instead, it is more analogous to school, where people sit together to share a communal experience, wrote a judge in a recent ruling in california. let's hear from brenda in new jersey. caller: good morning, america. i just want to thank the president for opening up churches. it is so important, for myself, to get back into church. i watched church on tv in the past, and it would be great to get back into my church. all i am asking is for people to stay a distance apart and follow the rules of the church, not sitting close together. i am sure there will be organizing where you can sit and

be in a church and pray, like we did before. thank you for listening, and have a good memorial day. host: thank you. william schaffner. [video clip] >> we all know that this goes through close personal contact. when you go to a congregation, you bring people close together closely. these are people who have known each other a long time. they want to see each other. they will get they will try to hug. they will sit closely together. if these houses of worship, god bless them, wish to reopen soon, please, do it carefully. urge people to wear masks. spread people apart.

have hand hygiene materials were available.- readily and keep the services as brief as possible. ask people not to linger and to be reverent by themselves at home. that is what i would advise. if we are going to do this, do it with great care. the virus is not religious. it will not respond to prayer, i am afraid. it loves congregations. that has been demonstrated both here and abroad, these religious gatherings have been sources, sites, where this virus has been transmitted widely. host: dr. william schaffner there. john in florida. what do you think about all of this? caller: goodi hope everyone is d blessed. i don't think the state or federal government has any say

over church services. our first amendment, second amendment, and all 27 clearly state that the government does not have a say and the continued interruption of spiritual all houses of worship should open up for people that want to go and practice safe distancing and using disinfectant and all sorts of hand sanitizer. the denial of people's first amendment right and the right to worship his stopping your spirit from living, it's trying to kill them like they are trying to do with our speech. it's horrible, un-american, and it must come to an end. people will stand up and it will get crazy. the police are violating rights they took an oath to uphold. how can they do that? an extension from the corrupt governor not following the constitution. i don't care what judges say, you have the right to practice

and worship god as you see fit and the government has no say whatsoever. host: dan from newark, new jersey. caller: as a doctor of medicine i have been making incessant calls to the cdc for guidance on various problems related to the virus. [indiscernible] -- you didn't look for the indications. we have been left in the lurch. at the same time as the president is telling us that we should [indiscernible] several -- [indiscernible] virus whens to the it is expelled from your mouth as you say prayer? or expelled from your mouth as you sit silently in the church? [indiscernible]

recent article in the proceedings of the national academy of science, our top institution in the country. they found [indiscernible] they are active in the air for over 10 minutes. host: thank you for calling, tricky to hear but i think we understood the point. we have just under one hour left on washington journal. coming up, chapman university's joel kotkin will talk about how urban centers could be affected by the coronavirus pandemic. as we go into our break another look at the front page of the new york times this sunday morning. no traditional news stories on the front page. just names. these are the people who have died from the coronavirus. nears 100,000 deaths

the new york times publishing localities,ges and where they lived and a bit of personal information about 1000 of these people in the country. they say the numbers alone cannot measure the impact of the virus on america, whether it's the number of patients treated, jobs interrupted, or lives cut short as the country nears a grim milestone of 100,000 deaths attributed to the virus. the new york times scoured -- 1% of the total overall as the country approaches 100,000, none were mere numbers. a stunning front page in the new york times this morning. we will be right back. 9:00nday, memorial day at

a.m. eastern on c-span, live coverage from arlington national cemetery of the laying of the wreath at the tomb of the unknown by vice president mike pence. at noon eastern president trump and the first lady will participate in the memorial day ceremony at mchenry to honor american heroes who sacrificed their lives while serving. watch live monday on c-span or c-span.org. listen on the free c-span radio app. monday night on the communicators, yelp's public policy vice president on digital competition and why he thinks google has betrayed the internet. he is interviewed by an antitrust reporter for politico. >> google is steering all this traffic to itself and a deoxygenated the entire world innovationd stifling

and ultimately harming consumers because they are not giving access to the best information from across the internet. >> watch on c-span two. a.tonight on q and historian discusses his book vagabonds." a book about the trips taken by henry ford and thomas edison. >> the idea was to take a car trip into the everglades. it would be an adventure and it was pointed out to them that there are not really any roads and it is dangerous and there are alligators and workers and people could die but they knew better. the trip lasted a day and a half, there was a monsoon, there were snakes and alligators, they fled, but they liked the idea. a came about they would take trip once a year if they could

with a bit of planning. tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern on q and a. >> washington journal continues. host: joining us from california is joel kotkin. he is a presidential fellow in urban futures at chapman university in orange, california. guest: good morning to you. researchhe type of that you conduct and the writing that you do. tell us more about what you specialize in. >> what i look at is the impact relations andlass taking a look at that over time. i do a lot of work on the changing urban form. this has been an interesting time to observe both. >> you recently wrote an op-ed in the hill where you talk about the new geography of america

post coronavirus. how are cities likely to change in the future based on this pandemic? i havet of the trends talked about were already happening. we already saw the populations of chicago, new york, and l.a. dropped before this happened. this is very important. were, people were beginning to move to the suburbs. not just to big sunbelt cities, but cities with under one million people, many of which were losing population for 50 or 60 years and are now beginning to gain. ishink what is happening technology is allowing us to spread employment out, people looking for other options, we were in this direction but the pandemic has accelerated it. it has accelerated everything. wealth --elerated

where people are living and it has celebrated almost every aspect of life, where it ends nobody quite knows. this is an extraordinary time to observe the differences in how people live and what class relationships are going to be like. host: you make a point in that piece, -- have promoted the notion that our future lays in dense and politically deep blue urban centers largely on the coast. with the covid-19 pandemic heavily concentrated in these urban centers the case seems increasingly dubious. tell us more. guest: what we have had for years is, this is very common particularly in the east coast not surprisingly, the idea that people -- anybody who has their act together will want to live

in one of five major metropolitan areas and basically everyone else is sort of like those biblical stories about being left behind, that this is where the losers are and that anybody who has anything going for them was going to live in the cities. there is certainly a great appeal, you can tell from my accent i am a native new yorker and have lived in southern california for 45 years. i am not unfamiliar with big cities. i think there has been a change that has begun to develop in which people begin to think, do i really want to -- beyond the train, subway, be in crowded places. the thing that seems to be one of the drivers of the pandemic havene of the reasons we this unequal distribution is exposure, what we call density exposure. how often you are forced to be very close to somebody, that

seems to be a factor. what we are seeing from polls and surveys, people are saying i am going to look for something more spread out or more spaced. being stuck in the pandemic in the studio apartment seems a lot worse than a single-family house. host: we are taking a look at the future of cities and american geography in general. life, all amidst this coronavirus pandemic. of guest is joel kotkin chapman university, a presidential fellow in urban futures. chapman university is in orange, california. in with viewers to call comments. in the eastern or central time zones call (202) 748-8000. mountain and pacific time zones (202) 748-8001.

we look forward to talking to you. we are also talking about politics. you wrote additionally in that hill piece, what is likely to emerge as the pandemic accelerates migration of people and businesses out of these deep loose cities, may be the birth of a new american center and american politics. what does the new american center look like, where is it, what does it think, and how does it vote? guest: ultimately, this is my hope for the coming of neo-feudalism warning against a stratified society. if people can move out, more people can own property, more people can have a middle-class life. to sustain a democratic republic because right now we are headed towards the decay of the roman empire at its very end and the beginning of feudalism. this has to be reversed. as long as we are going to

concentrate all power in those places in the country that are extremely expensive, we are going to tilt society construction.cal this dispersion i am talking about is one way to counteract this. the: a bit from the book on coming of neo-feudalism. the feudal revival -- what does the topic neo-feudalism mean? had in a have remarkable way an expansion of the middle class around the world, certainly in western countries and parts of east asia which have seen the dispersion of property and really unprecedented well-being by a lot of people. in the last 10 or 20 years we have been moving increasingly to concentrations of wealth and power that we have not seen for about 100 years.

politicsgly polarized which is obviously not going to work very well in terms of maintaining a republic. our real challenge is that the middle class with the small property owner has been really under pressure. one of the great tragedies of the pandemic has been the wiping out of millions of small businesses, small landlords. calls,been doing phone around southern california in particular and in other places where small businesses are being wiped out. bet we find is, what used to a large class of property owning middle-class people, they and their children are becoming what i would call serfs in the sense that they would never own anything and they will be dependent on either the government or some other kind of benefactor.

calls, onre we go to the pages of that book -- a warning to the global middle class, we are seeing a new form of aristocracy developing in the u.s. and beyond. wealth in a postindustrial economy tends to be concentrated in fewer hands, economy becoming more stratified with fewer chances of upward mobility for most of the population. laura is calling from orange county, new york. you are on with joel kotkin. caller: thank you for taking my call. i wanted to bring your attention to a big concern of mine. i want to alert you to what i deem a genocide going on regarding the covid-19. i know this may sound hyperbolic but i think if you are patient you will see why in a moment. i am a physician in new york

state and i believe that an incredible fraud is being propagated by the medical establishment with the media. just as trump says there is fake news there is fake medicine. thickis a true falsification of science going on -- which may have genocidal implications. it is oracle considering your guest deals with urban populations. i think most of the victims being affected are the aged, helpless, infirm, the poorest -- thes, the population black population particularly. the fake newswith is working hand-in-hand to falsify research on medication hydroxychloroquine. there have been two major studies published that have roni is perception

of the use of hydroxychloroquine in saying it may be harmful and have negative consequences on those who take it. that has been picked up by a lot of sub science journals and so on. media to warnws people not to take it. host: laura let me jump in and see if our guest has anything he wants to respond to. caller: i am not going to comment on the specifics. oddly enough my father was a physician and taught at a medical school in new york state. always joke that if you wanted to know who killed the most people in the world it was doctors. very oftenh me that what was excepted when he went to medical school in the 1930's would not be acceptable now and may even be harmful.

i can't comment on that. that the discussions around the virus have become overly political on both sides in my opinion and i find it frustrating as a layman to try to understand what is going on. , your can speak about comments about who is being affected. that on the disease level is the groups you talked about, the elderly, the poor, people living in overcrowded housing in forced to, people ride the subway for a long time or on a bus for a long time. those are the people who are being hurt. isconcern in this pandemic accentuating these class divides , that's what my book is about.

we are seeing who is affected. the wealthy parts of manhattan were barely affected because people went to their country homes, they lived in well ventilated ill doings. they did not have to ride the subway. they probably had better health to start with. my major point is that what is happening is the pandemic is accelerating the class divide that threatens the very viability of the republic. host: do you have a take on all of the harsh debate, the strong debate happening in this country on reopening things. whether they are beaches or origious services workplaces, everything we are talking about right now, can you connect it to the work you are doing? guest: definitely. one thing that is clear is that lockdowns, i these am not an epidemiologist.

i am smart enough to know what i don't know. this reveals a class conflict. put this best about the open up right and the lockdown left, these positions are being adopted for political purposes. they also have a class by us. me, a knowledge worker who can teach, work, even fromto national audiences your office and home, i am in a very different position than the person -- the taqueria is closed for three months but the large chains are adjusting far better and can last much longer. are seeing something that is just going to accelerate the decline of the middle class.

the smallrstand why business owner may feel that this is not working for them and they want to open up. one thing i have heard for interviews recently, i own a shoe store in santa ana california. i have to be closed, but you can buy shoes at target and at cosco and any of these other places. pandemic is just accelerating this class divide and it expresses itself in what i call the youmans class as being the group that is most negatively affected by the long lockdown. heartiest at the levels of the information economy are doing reasonably well. we are far less affected. in theur guest is anaheim, california area. our next call is from anaheim. good morning, steve.

guest: you are up early. caller: i am always up early to watch c-span. it's my favorite program. i kind of agree with you but i kind of disagree with you. basically, there is a documentary -- there is a bill in congress right now which is hr1 which is public funding of campaigns. to end the kleptocracy we have going on in the nation because it would be like public funding of campaigns is a bill. it will never see the light of day. my second point is there was a documentary put out on pbs years ago, i think it was 1990 and 1991, economics in america. explains how we got to where we got to now. title of it is how

the republicans want to destroy medicare. the name is a misnomer because it explains how the democrats planned to pay for medicare or social security and how the republicans planned to pay for it. it is worth looking up if you can find it. thanks for calling. i want to talk about working from home which you are doing and many of us are doing. the daily beast wrote that working at home according to the census now exceeds transit usage nationwide accounting for well over 5% of the workforce. you can easily employ one in four workers over in ways that will reshape cities. millions of americans who used to commute to work in mindnumbing traffic or rattling subway cars are seeing if they can work from home efficiently. many may find it difficult to get back to work in an office. those were your words.

tell us more. this is where i have a hope we can combat this trend towards feudalism. we are finding out that a lot of jobs -- can be done from home. i am coming from the perspective, i have worked in an office for all of three months. who not one of these people enjoys an office environment on a regular basis. i do think that what it means is that people will be able to take their talents and live in the way they want to live and in many cases that means they will be able to live in a place that is family-friendly. i remember conducting interviews for a think tank in new york and one of the things people kept saying to me is, i have to choose between having a family or living in new york.

that is my choice. interesting of the stuff i was doing in new york, but i don't necessarily have to do it in manhattan, i don't have to do it in the new york metropolitan area. this is in a norma's liberation where people would be able to collaborate nationally, but in those places they want to be. this is something that is taking advantage of the enormous physical strength of this country and i think is something very positive. the state of california our government is trying to force everybody into more density and more transit. i guess they sort of don't read what is happening out there. the reality is, we can reduce pollution, traffic, all the negative things that hurt the environment and are involved in climate change, all of those

things can be addressed by people working at home. this is our chance to go back to the kind of family centered capitalism that really i talkedd in the book about the emergence of the resistance to feudalism which took place because people owned their own property, had their own businesses. one last point which was something i learned doing my home basedhese businesses that were very common . you can look at the rembrandt paintings that reflect some of cultures had women that were very involved, women were literate and children were integrated into the business environment. this is a great chance for the renewal of the basic liberal capitalist culture that is

slowly dying. anne is from bar harbor, maine. caller: i am originally from brooklyn and i have lived in rural illinois, d.c., now i live on a large island off the coast of maine. one thing i have found to be a constant is that affordable rental housing and affordable property is almost inaccessible to working people wherever i have lived. it is very difficult. the broadbandthat divide in terms of working from home i think that maine has a hard time attracting young people to live here because of the broadband issue. i am sort of opposed to talking -- it is ourdemic

thisnse, and administration's incompetent response and the republican theef which is perpetuating economic injustices which their former policies instituted. very interesting point. in the book i talk about what is happening in rural america and the more scenic parts of rural would callre what i the oligarchy, the people at the top are buying enormous amounts of land, driving up the price of land, it's worse in europe, where people are getting priced out of these rural areas which is where in many cases they want to live. in places like jackson hole the people who work there cannot live remotely close to jackson hole. they have to go over these icy roads to get there.

rural america is being affected by this. this is part of the whole issue of feudalism which is property ownership is becoming more and more concentrated in fewer hands and it is also likely that during this pandemic, i am not going to blame one part or the other. thethe reality is that what pandemic is doing, this is very critical, creating a situation -- i have been doing interviews owners, small property in minority communities and immigrant communities, they don't have the connections to get to these loans and they are having a difficult time accessing the money. they can't afford to be without revenue. the same thing with african-american couples in los angeles who talk about the fact

that tenants cannot pay the rent. they cannot afford it. they are going to be tempted to come in, wall street will come in, move in, buy these properties for cheap and then find a way of making money with them. they have the staying power. the small business person does not. we are seeing the devastation of a large part of our private sector and middle-class. people who work for the government and universities have been ok so far. the people in the private sector and the middle class are having a very hard time buying property. you think about the fact that during the 1950's and 60's autoworkers in michigan were able to buy houses on the lake. i think that is increasingly impossible. of the character of the united states, its middle-class essence is being squeezed out. host: just under a half an hour

left with our guests. he is a presidential fellow of urban futures at chapman university in orange, california. words,ore of your particularly vulnerable are the two thirds of americans between ages 25 and 32 who lack a four-year college degree. in the past these workers would have been employed in factories or small businesses or even started one. now factory work has declined avenue companies have shifted production to china and other parts of the developing world, options fading before covid as evidenced by falling rates of business formation particularly among the young. tell us more. guest: this is one of the scariest things. i think covid may be accelerating this. we have a generation of young people very different than us boomers or gen xers who tend to be pretty entrepreneurial. that went through the

great recession and perhaps a worse pummeling from covid, what you are seeing is that young people are afraid. ofy are clinging to any kind security they can get and they don't feel they can start a business. many of them have large amounts of college debt. workers who don't have college education -- what we are seeing is workers with college educations doing jobs that were traditionally done by workers who just graduated from high school or dropped out of high school. what there seeing is french would call declasse. our middle class is becoming working-class and people are sort of ratcheting down. this is happening with young people. they are very challenged to buy a house. they don't have the money to start a business and you can

imagine right now the idea of starting a small business in the middle of a pandemic is probably not that attractive. host: from hillsboro, kentucky. good morning. caller: good morning. who has his ged, his wife works and he works. they have saved their money, he has a good job that pays well, he went to the bank to buy a house and they said yes. they said you have good credit and you can buy a house. someone with a college degree they have college loans so high they have no credit at all. as college degrees become less important -- my understanding is the virus -- thank you and i will wait for

your answer. host: a little more about the younger crowd and the value of a college education. guest: i think there is a lot of debate about the value of college education. in our school, let's say if schools go online, it's very difficult to go and ask a parent to spend $60,000 or $70,000 a year so their kid can get the online experience. and can go to arizona state do it for a fraction of that. i think it's going to be very important for universities to get back to the business of educating young people and getting them the kind of experience they cannot get online. that's going to be the great challenge for colleges and to be able to give the young people enough skills so they can survive in a very difficult environment.

we are not doing that very well and that is something we have to work on. talking about transmission of the coronavirus, there is a lot we don't know, but factor his scholarshipo your and writing about the density of cities and other parts of the country. there is no question that there is some relationship to density but it is not just density in the way that we think or san francisco. it is not just density, it is what kind of exposure do you have, can you work at home, do you have the kind of jobs where you have to be with other people or do you have the kind of job where you are out in the lot of home depot and you are going to be exposed. a lot of it will be on how do we find ways in urban settings to

make it safer. that is going to change the nature of our city. when you think about it, how are you going to do a 50 story office building when you have to have social distancing. how much space do you have to have for employee. what about the elevator, what about the subway? on we going to be waiting line so we can be in social distance subways? we have to rethink how we will design cities and where people will live and how they will live. i think there will be two big challenges. one is integrating the large number of people working at home. the second thing is what do we do with the people who are not going to be able to work at home. for of them have lost jobs our work again dangerous jobs. and makeo honor them

it clear how dependent we are. this is a good thing -- i mentioned home depot because my daughter works there, we are very dependent on these people and the tendency and one of the reasons why we have to define democracy in this country -- indifference to people who make society work and hopefully that pandemic will wake us up to that. or if not decade-long conversation about how cities are restructured. not to mention the financial conversation. is this country prepared to start having this conversation? guest: i hope so. what we are going to see now is hold districts in the cities, some of which were already in decline, being essentially abandoned. we are going to see the

communities of many , more solid working-class communities under more pressure. what are we going to do with all those people 10 minutes from where we are right now -- work, we they going to have to start to think about how we reintegrate parts of our middle and working class in an environment that will not be friendly to their previous employment. from alex is calling baltimore. caller: thank you for c-span and thank you, i enjoyed this conversation. i am a historian of pandemics. this has been intellectually stimulating. my question for the doctor is, i certainly agree that clearly something is changing. see the news, unemployment and all that.

toonder if it's too early say that these changes are structural changes rather than simply temporary changes sense likely the global capitalist economic forces that help create these huge urban centers in the first place would eventually probably drive the repopulation of the cities, isn't this what we are seeing with these reopening efforts all over the world? i just wanted to ask that question. host: thank you, alex. guest: thank you for the doctorate that i don't have. here is what i would emphasize. some of these changes are going to be very real. --we keep social distancing if we remove social distancing i think that changes will be less dramatic. there are changes in how people think.

past ischange from the technology will allow us to say, i can still do this task and i don't have to be in a dense city. i don't think it will be able to repopulate. i want to make a more radical point. during the period -- studying history, in the early part of the 20th century and the late 19th century we had a terrible .andemic in our urban centers --t we did is the filth in the new york subways was never excusable. think one of the things we have to keep in mind is that is part ofdensity

the problem. in 1920 manhattan had 2.5 million people. the worldes around did depopulate for a long time. recently started to flatten or gain some population. in many ways these cities will be more livable if they are less dense and in the case of new york, my family is from brooklyn originally, i would argue that the new york economy would benefit if more jobs were scattered throughout the boroughs so people did not have to ride the subway all the time to get to work. host: hank is in texas. good morning. go ahead. wonderfuljust had a comment about that dr.. .com in the search box they

talk about the wonderful benefits of hydroxychloroquine. there are implications that it has a problem with hearts. host: we will move on to casey in diana, texas. caller: good morning, thank you for taking my call. two points i wanted to bring up. he talked about serfdom in the it dawned on me that serfdom is actually something we are seeing right now in things like rv parks. the people who live in rv parks are either on social security or disability and they don't work. they are completely dependent on what they get from the government to live there [indiscernible] the other point i wanted to ask was about urban areas and the invisible fence.

not you have your high income areas literally pushing out the poor areas using an invisible fence of economic cost and value and pricing them out. that's all i had. guest: in the book i talked about the geography of feudalism. going to see this continue, the very wealthy and the very well-established will take the primary real estate and if it interferes and pushes out the poorer populations that is going to continue. i think it will be more the case in some ways because that will become much more expensive to be in the city as you have social distancing. i think you are going to see a continuation of this process in

which the wealthy, as long as they have the overwhelming assets, to be able to buy up the primary real estate. whether it is an attractive rural areas or in big cities. this is very much what we have for seeing in this country the last 20 or 30 years but it is now greatly accelerated and the pandemic is clearly one of the contributors. host: as we take a look at this pandemic and the future of the country, your words from the hill, hygienic fascism. turning the world into a safe space, but at what cost. what is hygienic fascism about? guest: the term i came up with -- we now have a mindset in part of our establishment that says we want

to control health and we are going to decide what the milestones are. in the case of the pandemic what let's says that many experts, say we could be locked down for 12 to 18 months and it would probably help reduce the death rate. what are the costs? when we allow for the expert, political class, and bureaucracy to make decisions on how people live that is kind of a fascist fascistic point. i am not arguing against the steps that we have taken but they should be done in a way to serve the public and consider the economic effects. of the more to some irrational opposition to some of the controls.

but also to a genuine feeling where people are telling us we have to live a certain way particular doctor's filho. there is a great debate about this issue. very much like what you had, the desire for a uniform point of we have even seen censorship of people with contrary views including people who are experts. we saw the same thing with climate change. the things ine of found was that there was a great importanceief in the of health and science in the fascist movements and communist tend tos that we don't realize that many of the supporters of both of those

regimes were extremely well educated experts. scientific socialism was very attractive to a great many intellectuals over the last century. the idea that there is a science that is a revealed truth -- host: nathaniel from california. another early riser. host: go ahead please. caller: i have a question. to the roleou say of our democratic systems and processes could or should play in either mitigating against worse results or facilitating greater results based on the subject matter you had in your book? i am a conflict analyst and have

done a lot of work in urban zones around the world. your interesting to hear opinions but considering that we have a vibrant democratic system and assess in place i would like to hear your thoughts on how they could either be a good thing or a bad thing. guest: here is the first thing. i think the government has to play a role in maintaining competition. we are in a dangerous situation. i talked about the oligarchy. we have a domination of this economy by a small number of companies -- are moving into more and more fields. you think of a company like amazon or apple moving into entertainment. you have elon musk and others

moving into the space industry. you have the control of major media by the same tech related companies. i think that is something we need to look at. we have forgotten the value of antitrust or some form of regulation, sometimes -- something we should break the companies up and others think we should regulate them. that is something we need to look at. the concentration of wealth has been the danger of a democracy. early -- concentration of wealth is an enemy of the democracy. on the positive side the government has to take it into consideration that how do we expand and preserve the middle class. wrotet social historian no bourgeois no democracy. if we become a country in which we either work for the government or are dependent on

the government or we have on norma's control or no control that is not a middle-class society. you cannot have a middle-class society in which the vast majority of property and wealth is controlled by a small number of people. you cannot have the kind of democracy america has had historically if you get to a point in which it becomes literally impossible for a young person, particularly a person from a poor background to ever attend. -- ascend. we have been losing that and that should be the interest of the government, how do we create an economy that lifts up the working class, middle class to be more affluent. without that i think you will have a regime of wealthy and powerful people -- we have about 10 minutes

left with our guest, joel kotkin . we are talking about the future of cities. life,ture of work, and and politics in general. wanted to get more of your take on technology. have touched on that a little bit today and the benefits of technology in a pandemic. wasformer head of google asked recently about the so-called reimagining of new york and the role technology might play. here is a look. telehealth,cused on remote learning, and broadband. we can take this terrible disaster and accelerate all the ways to make this better. the solutions have to help the people most in need. people are in different situations. we need to consider all of them and not pick one or the other. the intent is to be inclusive and make things better. we need to look for solutions

that can be presented and accelerated and used technology to make things better. my view is that these moments are a chance to revisit things that are not getting enough attention and we have systems that need to be updated and reviewed. guest: i find it ironic given that google is one of the most dangerous of all the oligarchical institutions in this country. would be loath to allow google or any major tech company to steer the future direction of our society. their interest is surveillance. they are not interested in a more a gala terry in society, they are certainly not interested in competition. during the time i was covering silicon valley in the 80's, enormous amounts of competition between company a and then 10 companies, somewhat disappear

but there was very rapid change. i don't think there has been the kind of rapid change -- i don't think microsoft today is better than it was 10 years ago. you would not have said that 10 years previously. the danger we would have is putting enormous amounts of power in the hands of already hegemonic corporations with people who have a enormous amounts of wealth. i think we have to see that technology, which was mostly developed at the taxpayer expense, that technology is a great weapon and tool -- i agree on those points. aboute to be very careful who controls this and how much competition we are going to have. --hout competition

host: talking about people being able to work from home and not taking public transit. wanted to get your take on the quality of the future workforce. in the washington post we wrote this, there are serendipitous benefits to in person collaboration, that no number of zune meetings or slack channels can replicate. there is the psychological toll of keeping workers in the same place as the boss. employers frequently see themselves as better able to monitor and control employees when they are on the premises. >> i think there is some truth to that. the meetings with ceos have seen them surprised at how much this is -- how well this is working. i think we will launch a hybrid environment where those things that can be done at home will be done at home because it is more efficient. on the other hand there is a need for personal contact.

one thing i think we may see is people working from home four days a week. one day a week they come in, maybe they come in -- i think it will depend a lot on age. and 60's -- aboutk what is being said the importance of personal meetings is very important for people in their 20's. i do think we will continue to need some degree of personal contact with people. i don't think it has to be everybody. going think what you are to see -- many companies will have their headquarters in the more favored

corners of this country like manhattan and southern california and the bay area, but most of those workers will be living elsewhere because they cannot afford to live effectively in those areas so they will go elsewhere. managing that dispersion will be the great challenge, how do we bring people into to have enough personal contact to satisfy the need for collaboration. my sense of it is it would be a great challenge for people in their 20's who don't have their contact, families, and have needed the office environment -- >> while we are here, a temporary change has taken place in the house of representatives. you probably heard that starting this week they are going to conduct business with proxy voting where one member of congress can right of letter

allowing -- we are doing remote hearings as well. what do you make of the way congress is doing business? >> i think we may think about having a more or less virtual congress. it would be a good thing if congresspeople spent more time in their districts and less time in washington. i know that is not good for local washington eateries when they open up again, but the reality is i don't understand why they all have to be in washington. every oncee a need in a while to get together, but the idea of people being able to do their work from their district, spending time with their families and getting a sense of reality, more separation from the obvious, might not be a bad thing at all. host: sam from los angeles. hello, sam. my initial intention was

to ask what the solution is. would like to point out that the rule of the oligarchy over the underclass has never been gone, that will be here until something major changes. a caller who called earlier said there is a bill in congress to reform campaign finance but we know that will never see the light of day. it feels like something that is viscerally and deeply known by all. when i hear you say the answer is government needs to get more involved to help engender these you point outr elon musk. the government helped him build his businesses, but not so long ago [indiscernible] as his wealth grew he consciously chose to reinvest it in things and his tech is largely open-source.

heon't see him, bananas as may act, i don't see him as a stingy and oligarchical force. if you do encourage government participation in the evening out of societies what could you say to a middle-class conservative who says ok, but what kind of government intervention. then i hear you say maybe congress should spend more time in their districts. is it a limiting of government or giving for your rain to the hands of government to intervene? as a middle-class conservative how would you speak to me? i am not necessarily in favor of having the government get more directly involved in the economy in the sense of running the corporations and telling them what to do as much

as making sure that we have competition and looking out or the middle and working classes economically. that does not mean more government. many times the more the government is involved them more it helps for the oligarch -- the more it helps the oligarchs. government does have a role to protect the rights of the middle class and the working class to make sure that we have a somewhat fair playing field. i am not necessarily talking about aoc, bernie sanders, democratic socialism, i am talking about having the government look out for the ability to start businesses -- or by -- host: our guest has been joel kotkin who is the presidential

fellow of urban futures -- thank you for your time and insights this morning and enjoy your converse it -- guest: thank you. host: thank you to everybody who called in this morning. we will be back tomorrow just like we are every day at 7:00 eastern time for another edition of washington journal. we will see you back here tomorrow. ♪ >> tonight on "q&a," historian jeff gwynn discusses his book "the vagabonds" about the summer road trips taken by

henry ford and thomas he had sofpble >> the idea came they'd go ahead and take a little car trip into the everglades. i mean, there would be lots of exotic plants and animal life, and it would be an adventure. it was pointed out to them that there's not really any roads there, and it's dangerous, and there's alligators and worse, and people could die. but oh, they knew better. the trip lasted a day and a half. there was a monsoon. there were snakes. there were alligators. they fled. but they liked the idea. and so it came about that they would take a trip once a year if they could, but with a little better planning so disaster would be less looming. >> tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern "q&a." an >> monday, memorial day, at 9:00 a.m. eastern on c-span, live coverage from arlington national cemetery of the laying of the wreath at the tomb of the untomb by vice president

mike pence. at noon eastern, president trump and the first lady will participate in a memorial day ceremony at fort mchenry to honor american heroes who sacrificed their lives while serving. watch live monday on c-span and c-span.org. or listen on the free c-span radio app. >> next, ford foundation president darren walker talks about philanthropy, inequality, and justice at a forum hosted by duke university. it's about an hour and 10 minutes. >> i'm truly delighted to be here this evening to welcome darren walker to duke. he serves as president of the ford foundation and will be our 2020 terry sanford distinguished lecturer. i have to say, given all of mr. walker's extraordinary