and churchill." at 4:30 eastern, time magazine correspondent molly paul talks about her latest book, "hello see." "pelosi." on afterwards, chris hughes talks about his book "bear shot." -- bear shot." david about.writer she talks about his career and books on in-depth. watch book tv this memorial day weekend on c-span two. host: joining us this morning from montclair, new jersey is kimberly weisul, editor at large for inc. magazine and inc.com. we are here to talk about the paycheck protection program. thank you for joining us. explain the paycheck protection

program. give us a status report on how this part of the new law is doing. guest: good morning. thanks so much for having me on. the paycheck protection program, right now, there is money available for businesses who need it. what it allows is to get a loan backed by the fda that will allow you -- the sba that will allow you to pay your employees potentially while your business is still closed. the first round of money for that program was $349 billion, and it ran out just after under two weeks. it was about 13 days. however, the second round of money, we believe there is still about $100 billion left. a lot of people think the program is over or that it is not available to them, but for business owners for whom this is a good solution, to being able to keep their employees on, there is still money available and they should apply if they think it will work for them. host: what did you learn in part one of this program? worked about it and what needs

improvement? guest: in part one of the program, a lot of dissatisfaction was centered on the way it was executed. it was billed as a first-come, first-served program, but the banks were quickly overwhelmed with applications, tens of thousands of applications in just a few so they decided they hours. would focus on their customers first, which come on the face of it makes sense, but they focused on customers with whom they already had deep and substantial lending relationships. and that meant, in practice, the largest customers got their money first, and some of the smaller businesses or those that did not have a steady relationship with a bank were not able to get money from that first program. the sba also had a difficult time handling demand. rules of the program were intentionally written so a larger number of companies that normally apply for the sba programs could apply for this.

that wrapped in public companies that probably should not have gotten the money. now, as people have had more time to look at the program and to try to use the money, they are realizing that there is trouble with the design as well, and that is what some of the more recent legislation is trying to fix. host: our guest is editor at large at inc. magazine and inc.com, kimberly weisul. we will take your calls and just a couple of minutes. here are the way the phone lines are going to be put out there this morning. if you are a small business owner, call (202) 748-8000. if you are an employee at a small business, call (202) 748-8001. everyone else, (202) 748-8002. we are talking here about the paycheck protection program. which is now in phase two. members of congress are looking to make additional changes to this. before we get to calls for our

guest, we are going to take a look at some of the dialogue from the senate floor as they were heading out of session, trying to make some changes. they ultimately did not. we will talk with our test about that. here is how it played out on the floor. [video clip] >> specifically, the paycheck protection program extension act that we are introducing today would do the following. it would allow borrowers 16 weeks to use their loan plans instead of eight weeks. small businesses could choose the period that they believe works best to coincide with the reopening of their local economy. so, some small businesses took the loans very early, thinking that the shutdowns would not last or that the pandemic would be on the way down by now, which

it is, in some states, thank goodness, but not in all. but this built in more flexibility. you would have 16 weeks to use the loan funds instead of second, it extends the deadline eight. to apply for a ppp loan from june 30 to december 31 of this year. again, this reflects the fact that shutdowns lasted far longer in virtually every state than we anticipated when we were drafting the bill in march. third, the bill will allow borrowers to use loan funds to purchase personal protective equipment for employees and to pay for adaptive investments needed to reopen safely. host: kimberly weisul, senator

collins laying out that details -- the details there. it was a more specific sense of where congress is headed on this now. no action taken by the end of last week. guest: it was disappointing to not see this go through by the end of last week. i think the thing that is important to understand about is, no matter if it is in this bill or the heroes bill, which will take longer, there is broad bipartisan agreement that part s of this need to be changed. right now, you have eight weeks from the time you get your money to use it. that means you can essentially keep your employees on payroll for eight weeks. the idea is that was going to be a bridge to reopening. as the senator pointed out, it , for lots of businesses, looks like a cliff. she mentioned that people got the money early -- that was not necessarily their choice. there was white agreement, and

it did happen with the first batch of money, that it was going to run out. so, it was a race for people to get it while it was still available. another part that did not come up in that clip is this requirement that you need to spend 75% of the money on payroll. at a time when a lot of businesses are having trouble getting their employees back or they don't want to be paying their employees to do nothing, if they then will not have the money to pay them when they are reopening, that 75% hurdle is looking really difficult to clear. that is not something that requires congressional action. actually, the treasury could do it, because they are the ones who implemented that rule. but they see no signs of wanting to change it. those are the two things that business owners have had the most trouble with. the eight week period in which to use the money and that 75% requirement. there is broad bipartisan support on changing both of them. the problem is that the earliest companies to get the money are already very close to the end of their eight week period.

so, whether or not they have been able to use that money in the way stipulated by the law, they really need clarity. so we would really like you this, hopefully, changed, as soon as possible. after the break. if it does not change, again, at least people have clarity. it will probably mean, however, that that second amount of money will not go out to businesses as quickly, because, as people realized that they can't use it the way it is intended, they are becoming much more reluctant to seek the funds. host: let's go to calls. victor from alabama, you are on the line with kimberly weisul. good morning. caller: good morning. host: yes, sir. caller: c-span? host: yes, victor, you are on live. you are on with kimberly weisul. we are talking about the paycheck protection program. do you have a question or comment? caller: yes, sir. i just talked to a young lady that told me i would be next in line. host: you are here.

go ahead. caller: all right. let me turn the tv down. i have one question for the young lady. is it going to be ok for people to pay back money that they have already earned -- i understand where you're coming from about paying the money, but shouldn't small business pay the money back? how are they going to come out of the hole if they are already in the hole? how do they supposed to come out if they have to pay it back? host: thank you. guest: thank you, you bring up a great point, victor. which is if the business uses , 75% of the money to pay their employees, and their are few other allowed uses for that remaining 25%, then the loan can be forgiven. that is the reason that people

were stampeding to get the loan when they first became available. that is why this is so important to small businesses. it is for the reason exactly that you mentioned. many are concerned that, if they do not use it in the eight weeks or if they do not you 75% of it on payroll, they will not be able to get it forgiven. and they are, most of them, not in a position to take on more debt. even though that would be a two year loan at 1%. what they need is loan forgiveness. it is important that these rules are written or the legislation is changed in a way that they can get it. because they are in a hole, and having more debt is not going to help. host: and i assume when we are talking about payrolls with small business owners, they can pay themselves with part of this money, correct? guest: yes. host: are there any rules and restrictions on that? guest: yes. you have to pay ourselves and your employees essentially what you pay them in a comparable eight week period last year.

you can't all of a sudden give everyone raises an use in the -- use it all in the last week. you cannot prepay expenses to get them into the eight week period. but if you look at the spirit of the law, the idea is for you to be able to pay yourself what you would have been making if this had not happened, and to figure that out, you use a period from last year. then, you are allowed to use it for for yourself, for pay, and for your employees. host: can the money be used for other forms of compensation as well? maybe bonuses or health care expenses? guest: yes, they can be. with bonuses, it has to be

reasonable. come -- right? you are allowed to give someone a promotion if they have earned it. you are allowed to give some reasonable amount of hazard pay, if you have essential workers. other types of compensation count. such as, as you mentioned, the employer share of health insurance. commissions count, you can replace tips that people would have earned. pay is defined quite broadly. host: let's go to new york city, small business owner, john. guest: good morning. i own an llc company since 2013. i file my llc taxes every year. can you hear me? host: we can. keep going. caller: so i file every year. i bank through a charles schwab bank. charles schwab does not accept applications, so i couldn't submit. i went to the only other bank

where i have a personal account, citibank. citibank told me i couldn't submit the application because i did not have a business account. so, i have no way to really apply to. i did call -- c-span had the sba person, mr. hunt, a while back. i wrote to him, i called him, i did not hear a word from him either. i tried calling my senator. there is a whole process to sending an email, which i'm going to try to do, to see if they can help me. i just would like to know where i can apply. guest: this is another problem with the program. i am glad you brought it up. a lot of banks are no longer accepting applications, because they are the ones who are going to have to determine the forgiveness, and they are starting to realize how much work that is. you do not have to be a customer of a bank, or currently, to submit an application. so, i would go to a community bank near you and find out if they are accepting applications.

if they are not, there are a number of online lenders that are.

guest: the idea is that it will be forgiven. they need to know that you can repay employees with this loan. the matter how small your businesses, you should take a look at it. they are eligible under this program. same for small nonprofits, same

for partnerships. it is very broad. i think that also, especially for the smaller companies and partnerships who thought they were not eligible, that is a reason there is still money left. the back -- host: jim, welcome to the program. work do you do? caller: thank you for having our call. my wife is a nurse practitioner and we have a virtual practice on phone that she responds to people with virtual care. i just think that the -- i am not hearing you. just keep going, and then you will be able to hear our guest. caller: ok. the big question i have -- i am also president of our local eagles club that is here. and we are a 501(c)(8). the bank told us we are not eligible for the payroll protection plan, because we are (c)(8).

we do have 10 employees we pay for really minimal tasks, but we have to continue doing that, so i just do not know why we are not eligible for the (c)(8). the bank has told us that they showed that we are not eligible. so, i sent a letter to rick scott, our senator here. hopefully he can help us. he says he is looking into this. host: thank you. what would you tell jim? guest: unfortunately, from my understanding, his bank is correct. it is only the (c)(3)'s. however, in the heroes act, they are looking to expand it to (c)(6)'s. but they are conscious of the fact they have left out a number of not for profits by only limiting it to (c)(3)'s. so that is something that is under discussion. for now, your bank is correct. host: what else can you tell us about the heroes act which has

only passed the house, not the senate? what else would it do to the paycheck protection program? guest: as we said, it would change the amount of time that you have to use the money, which is huge. it would change the percentage that you need to use on payroll. it would also extend it, which is very interesting. the program, the last application was supposed to be 30 june, i believe. now, it will go to december 31. that is very interesting because it implies that there will be money left, which no one expected. right now, if your loan is not forgiven, you need to pay a back -- pay it back within two years. the heroes act would potentially extend that to five. and also right now, this is a little bit in the weeds, but if you keep your employees on, you can get an employee production tax credit. right now, if you also get a ppp loan, you cannot have the employee attention tax credit. they would change that so you would get both at the same time, or you could potentially get both at the same time.

it would also try to carve out money specifically for businesses with fewer than 10 employees. specifically for not-for-profit, and also for underrepresented communities. those are some of the things specific to the paycheck protection plan that the heroes act -- again, it will be negotiated before all of this comes to life, but it is proposed for now. host: let's go to ron, small business owner. what kind of business do you own? caller: i have a membership services business, where we try to encourage people to use cashback, which would ultimately regenerate activity into the economy. the way that ppp is set up now, i guess one would have to certify they have an employee. do you know, what about companies that want to hire people and try to offset the problems and try to help the country in that way? do you know if the ppp will assist those who are interested in hiring people?

i will take it off of the air, thank you. host: thank you. guest: that is a good question. i do not know, frankly. the ppp is looking at preserving the employment levels you already have.

caller: businesses in my area are between a rock and a hard place. says, yes,ration they -- and i agree with the male that says how are they going to pay back, you know, into hire back their own employees, a lot of them? it has not been worked out good. hard decision, responsibility for all of them. host: thank you. is there anything shelby said you can respond to? guest: she is correct it has not been worked out well. however, the intent of the law and the guidance we have now is is that if they use 75% of that money towards paychecks, they will not have to pay it back,

because congress understood that have businesses really been hit hard by this. many of them do not have good choices, and they do not necessarily want them to go further into debt. are getting more on unemployment

then they would get if their business could hire them back. they are getting more on unemployment than they were making before. for business owners, it is very difficult. to figure out what to do here, because some of their employees would be better off on unemployment. the problem is, unemployment does not last forever and a lot of business owners who are able to offer health insurance want their employees to be able to keep that. and on unemployment you generally cannot. if it is a short-term furlough, some business owners are working with their insurance brokers to keep people on, that is really an important piece of this.

host: let's hear from michael in cleveland, again, a small business owner. tell us about your business and tell us what your comment or question is for our guest. caller: yes, hello, good morning. were deemed in ohio as essential because we are in the automotive business. it is a small operation. two full-time, three part-time. i'm not exactly sure how -- we do receive the loan. i am not exactly sure how they formulated that. we based off of our 941's for the past year. the labor cost, the 75%, is that gross at 940 and 941? and state unemployment and workmen's comp all included in that cost? guest: thank you. in general, that is your 941. it can also be health insurance

and a few other benefits. i don't believe it is worker's comp, however. so, it is, there is a fair amount in that definition of pay, but it is not everything. it is a little tricky, because you get an amount that is based on two and half months of payroll, but then you only have eight weeks to use it as opposed to the 10 weeks you got it based on. i know that is confusing. it is confusing for everyone. it is one of the reasons they are looking to extend the time period. but they haven't done it yet. host: and mike. mike is in madison heights, virginia, a small business employee. tell us who you work for, what you do, and what your question is. caller: i work for a construction company. my question is, these small businesses have got these loans to pay the employees for hours. so what do you do with a company

that is still working and charging the customers? would that not be double dipping for the companies to still be performing work. he still see the painters out, you still see the remodelers out, you see the construction companies running up and down the road, charging companies to pay, yet the employees, some of them only get 25 hours a week and cannot draw their unemployment like they are supposed to, but the company has got the money. host: good question there. guest: for one thing, in order to get the money, the company has to certify that they need it. that has been very confusing, because no one knew exactly how desperate you had to be to say that you needed the money. right? people were worried, if they had a line of credit perhaps, could they get the money? since then, treasury has said that if you got less than $2 million, you are assumed to be acting in good faith. there are some states that have

something called workshare that allow, sort of both unemployment and pay, like unemployment for reduced hours, as it were. and it is true that the business owner could potentially be getting some revenue while also getting help from the ppp to pay payroll. but many businesses are not going at full clip, even if they are open. payroll is typically a busines'' second biggest expense. generally, there is rent, the cost of overhead, supplies -- so although the ppp, of course, is crucial to these businesses for paying payroll, it is not the only thing the business has to pay for, and they have to certify there is a need for it. treasury has been very active in saying they will be investigating when they think there was not a need. host: the sba, for folks who are running businesses, who want to

take part in this program, how is the sba performing right now? are they big enough to handle all of these requests and inquiries that are coming along? guest: i think, now, it is working fairly well. the first trench of money when there was really that rush for companies to get the money, the sba was asked to approve, in two weeks, something like 20 times the number of loans that they normally do in a year. so, you can imagine how that worked. the sba uses a system called e-tran to provide origination numbers, and it was routinely overwhelmed. so, the short answer is no, they are nowhere near big enough. the long answer is somehow they did it, got to the first two weeks, and now it seems to be working relatively well. host: what can you tell us about lending banks and their involvement in all of this? are they getting what you might consider to be regular fees as part of this process? guest: so the banks have also have been overwhelmed.

they only come at the beginning, wanted to work with their existing customers. theyans up to $350,000, make a 5% fee, which sounds generous, but the average loan size was about $200,000. now, it has come down to about $37,000. a lot of the loans in the past week, we are looking at about $17,000. so they are making about $850 originating that loan, and they are also going to have to figure out the forgiveness on the other end. on the other hand, if they are doing an $8 million loan, it may take the same amount of work for them, they are going to make 1% on that, and come out a lot better. for banks to work with their larger clients, it works out quite well for them sometimes, even though the percentages are lower. for smaller clients, it is not really clear that they are doing well on this. and it is a lot of work for

them. this is really hard to say, because the banks were essentially entrusted with running a relief program for which they were also prepared. and i think that is part of, you know, the dissatisfaction around the implementation around it was either not fail or not done well -- not fair or not done well or their portals did not work, and a lot of that is true. on the other hand, the scope and speed of this was really unprecedented. i think part of the reason there is so much more money left is that loan sizes are going down, people understand better if this will work for them, and everyone is able to handle it in a more orderly fashion. a a few have time for calls from our guest. tom is in florida. tell us your situation and your question. caller: my wife and i operate a business that contracts with staples office supply. and our employees are actually 1099 contractors.

and right now -- and we get paid by the package. right now, we are delivering very few packages. we drive just as many miles, but -- the guys work just as many hours, but because they are 1099, i do not qualify for any money from the ppp. if i was to just shut my business down, then my contractors could apply by themselves under the ppp, but then again i lose my contract and all of my trucks will sit there and the banks will come and repossess them, so i feel like i am falling into a gap there. guest: there is somewhat of a gap there. if your employees are making less, you don't have to lay them off or fire them or anything like that for them to get some sort of compensation. if they can certify that they are making less and they have been hurt by this, they can apply for the ppp on their own, which is new in this program and

it has been confusing for a lot of people because normally, you think of that as your cost, and therefore you would apply for ppp on their behalf, but the way it works is they apply, and they do not have to have zero income to apply for it. but they do have to be able to make it through the paperwork and the loan application process, which is streamlined compared to a traditional loan , and it still is a bit of a hurdle. host: patrick is in bardstown, kentucky. good morning to you, patrick. caller: good morning. i was just curious if there is a second stimulus, which i have heard, and if congress has passed it yet. guest: right now -- i think he is referring to the heroes act. right now, maybe july 4, we will see something. we don't really know the crux of the negotiation seems to be over unemployment, because it is historically very generous.

you know, the heroes act would continue the $600 a week enhancement to unemployment. republicans don't want to see it's going to take a while. not in historical times a while, but it's not going to happen in the next couple of weeks. host: the ppp. who has direct oversight over this whole process? guest: this comes from treasury. at the beginning of this program, when they discovered that some public companies have taken these loans out when they had, potentially, ample sources of other funds, they were talking about investigations. they have been very vocal that they are going to be looking at the larger loans. but, just about a week and a half ago, a week ago, they said that, if you had a loan of less than $2 million, there was a safe harbor there, and you are thought to be acting in good faith. but it will be treasury and the irs. host: let's hear from judith in florida. a lot of florida callers this morning. caller: good morning.

my question is, i in the am catering business, which, of course, we have been completely shut down since the end of march. we have not been able to have weddings, events, high school graduation events. we are still kind of out of business. even though we can have something now, people are still scared and are canceling. i am the owner of the business. i am not officially on the payroll. all i do is take a draw at the end of the month, what i can, to pay my bills. we did receive the loan, thank you. and i am paying the employees to keep them on staff. but i've been told by my accountant that i am not allowed to take one penny for myself, which i haven't, so at this point, i totally in a mess just am trying to take a loan to pay my mortgage and my bills, because i have been three months now with totally no income. is that correct or am i allowed to take something for myself? host: we touched on this earlier. what would you tell judith? guest: i would tell her first

off, that i am not an accountant. but i've spoken to many accountants who say that if you form, which a k-1 is how most people take it if they recorded as income on their taxes, you should be able to pay yourself that amount. i am sure your account has seen you through a lot of difficult times. i would go back to them and check and get a second opinion. host: let's get ed on the line from new jersey. -- ed is a small business owner. what is your business? caller: i have a small consulting business. i did not start the business until early this year. i thought i heard the lady speaking, saying it was based upon last year's income that you were paying people. host: can you clarify? guest: you know what? it depends on the exact date. i would check into that. if you started last year, you would absolutely be eligible, but i think it is into the very beginning of this year, technically.

so, i would look into that. if you started in january, you are going to be ok. if you started in march, i am not so sure. host: joe from staten island, new york. good morning. caller: yes, good morning. how are you guys doing? i am calling up about people who applied to the sba loan, and the people who are getting their money to take care of their workers. also, these workers, let's say, are the people also filing for unemployment and getting the money from their boss and also filing for unemployment and that is not doing the right thing in -- and being fair? is that happening? guest: just like the banks who were trying to administer the ppp program, the offices -- unemployment offices are also overwhelmed. you are not allowed to do both those things. if you are being paid by an employer, whether it is for ppp

or something else, you are not also able to get unemployment. the exception would be if your hours are cut and you are getting less. in some states, you can get a little bit of unemployment for the lost hours and therefore the lost income. but if you are getting paid through ppp or anything else, you can also get unemployment, generally. host: as we wrap up, what should small business employees and small business owners be thinking about the future of this program? guest: it looks like there will be money left for quite a while. at the beginning, people were really rushing to get it. i would take a hard look at it, i would look at when you might be able to reopen and at what level, like can you make money if you have reduced headcount in your restaurant? do some projections, see if you could repay the money the way that it is intended. if so, you may be able to get it. you may have to go through an online lender if your bank is no longer participating.

but there does look like there is going to be money here for people who need it, so i encourage them to look into it. host: kimberly weisul is editor at large for inc. magazine at -- and inc.com. joining us from new jersey this morning. thank you for your time. appreciate the time and the helpful information for our viewers. guest: my pleasure. thank you so much. >> watch c-span's coverage of the government's response to the pandemic, with briefings from the white house, congress, and governors from across the country. plus, join in the conversation on our calling program, washington journal. if you missed any of our coverage, watch on-demand at c-span.org/coronavirus. >> tonight on q&a. a historian discusses his book about the summer road trips taken by henry ford and thomas edison. >> the idea came they would take a car trip into the everglades.

animald be plants and life and it would be an adventure. it was pointed out that there is not any roads there and it is dangerous and there is alligators and worse. and people could die, but they knew better. the trip lasted a day and a half. there was a monsoon. there were snakes, there were alligators. they fled, they liked the idea. so, it came about that they would take a trip and see year if they could. but with a little letter planning so disaster would be less looming. >> tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern q&a.span's noonday -- >> monday, memorial day at 9 a.m. eastern on c-span, live coverage from arlington national cemetery of the laying of the wreath at the tomb of the unknown by vice president mike pence. at noon eastern president trump

will participate in the memorial day ceremony at fort cannery to honor heroes who sacrificed their lives. watch live, monday on c-span and c-span.org or listen on the free c-span radio app. host: joining us from california this morning is joel, he is a fellow in urban futures at chapman university. good morning. guest: good morning to you. host: explain the type of research and -- that you conduct and the writing you do. tell us more about what you specialize in. guest: what i really look at is the impact of change on class relations in taking a look at that over time. i also do a lot of work on the changing urban form. this has been a very interesting time to observe both. host: