resisting arrest and two days later, hangs herself in her cell. a tragic and unexpected result. the whole, the exchange that we saw, which by the way, goes on, and on, and on, and on, we saw a small snippet of it, that was the kind of -- when i first saw the online, that was when i realized what i wanted to write about. if you break that exchange down moment by moment, you see multiple failures of understanding, of empathy, of a million things. >> sunday night at 8:00 eastern &a."q daily, unfiltered coverage of the government's response to the coronavirus pandemic with briefings from the white house, congress, and governors from across the country. plus, join in the conversation

program,ve call-in "washington journal." heidi shierholz, former chief economist at the u.s. department of labor earned the obama administration from 2013 to 2017. now with the economic policy institute. thank you for joining us this morning. >> thanks for having me. host: wanted to talk about the impact of the pandemic on workers. what do you see? >> it's pretty grim. it's really bad right now. so as of mid april, the official

unemployment rate had jumped to 14.7%. but because of some misclassification and undercounting of people who had lost their jobs as a result of the virus, i think that a more accurate description of where we were in mid april is more like a 23.5% unemployment rate. and we've had another five weeks of deterioration since then so it's pretty grim. really sachs which has a good economics research shop, they are forecasting that the unemployment rate average 30% in may and june. so it's going to get worse before it gets better. it's pretty grim for workers out there right now. host: phone numbers at the bottom of the screen. if you lost your job or were laid off recently, (202) 748-8000. essential workers (202) 748-8001

. everybody else (202) 748-8002. we are talking with former chief economist at their labor department. or even 30% real unemployment rate in this country mean? what does it all mean? >> there are just a huge number of people out of work because of the virus. that's the reality we are facing right now. how that plays out on the ground is really a question of how policymakers respond. so if we have a situation where people can't work because of very important social distancing measures, if the federal government steps in and makes sure that their income doesn't drop even if they can't work and if businesses are shattered right now or are working well

below capacity because they don't have demand for their services because of important social distancing measures, if the government steps in and mixture they can stay afloat even if they are shattered -- shuttered. governments are seeing massive declines in their tax revenue as a result of all of this. if the federal government doesn't step in they will have to do massive cuts that will hamstring the economy. if instead the federal government steps in and shores up their balance sheets so they can keep going. if that happens, it means when we are able to reopen safely that will be the kind dense and demand to get a quick ounce back. -- bounce back. the pace of the recovery once we are able to reopen safely really is up to how policymakers act

right now. ways. go one of two i really hope they make the right choice. talk of anow there is fifth stimulus plan here in washington. what is your take on what they've done so far for the workers in the country? bikes they've done a lot. it's been great. it hasn't been enough. we need to do more. there have been really important things that have been done. important parts of the stimulus packages that have passed so far have been a big expansion of unemployment insurance benefits. in our normal unemployment insurance system, there are gaps you can drive a truck through. lots of people lose their jobs who are not eligible. the federal government stood up a new program called pandemic unemployment assistance. it's based on disaster unemployment assistance it gets

put into place after a hurricane in a specific area. in this case, we need this pandemic unemployment assistance for the whole country. have access and are having access to unemployment insurance been it's wouldn't be eligible for regular unemployment insurance. worke like self-employed is, gig workers. for're not eligible unemployment insurance but they are also out of work as a result of the virus. people who had to quit their jobs to take care of the child school closed as a result of the virus. they wouldn't be eligible for regular unemployment insurance but they are out of work because of the virus so there eligible for assistance. it has been an important expansion of these benefits. there is also an increase in the amount of benefits people get. usually unemployment insurance

benefits are just incredibly stingy. halfreplace the maximum of of your prior earnings. -- most people don't even get half of their prior earnings. if you are not getting half of , for ther earnings vast majority of households that means they are going to have to spend less and that will hurt the broader economy. so those expansions of the amount of benefits people get have also been really important not just for the living standards of the people who receive that but also for making sure we are maintaining the strength of the macroeconomy so there's confidence when we are able to reopen. from jackson, missouri. aller: i guess my view of this is more like a military operation. our president has failed us as

commander-in-chief. troops thereve the necessary tools to fight in this war. he has not furnished masks. given a consistent message. the troops on the ground is us, the people. the ones that are making no money because of income loss. there's no reinforcements coming from the rear. whole warl that this campaign as he's called it is an utter failure and it's too bad that he hasn't even seen that yet. host: thank you for calling. heidi shierholz, your take on the trump administration's approach to all of this so far. >> i share that disappointment. there's been a couple of junctures where we really could have made a difference and avoid this major job loss.

we had a real heads-up feud we knew this was happening in china and europe before it proliferated here. if we had gotten a really system of testing and contact tracing, then we would be able to just quarantine people who had an exposed instead of having to do these broad social distancing measures and we could have really helped reduce the massive job loss that we are seeing right now. i do think the administration not getting it together to get that done is part of the reason that we are seeing a big problem right now. again,s this opportunity we are really at this juncture. one of the pieces of good news in the labor market data right now is that two thirds of workers who are out of work as a result of the virus report that

they expect to be called back to their jobs. that's actually great news. it still leaves millions of people who don't expect to be called back to their jobs, but that's a pretty high share. the means policymakers have opportunity to make that happen, to make actually possible for those workers to go back to their jobs. so if they do things to make sure people have the incomes they need even if they haven't been working, make sure businesses stay afloat and state in the government's don't have to make massive cuts all by providing the necessary aid, then when we are able to reopen safely, there will be the confidence and demand that we will be able to get a quicker bounce back. i really hope at this point the administration and congress step up and do the right thing. on the linee sean

from lakeland, florida. we understand you called on the line for those who have and laid off. tell us your situation. i'mer: my situation is fitting to get laid off. my company is going to discontinue my job. host: what kind of work? caller: i drive a forklift. i work at a food warehouse. so we were deemed essential workers. theomment really is forgotten which i'm about to non-essentials a that's on unemployment that pays child support. stimulust get the package. i got a letter saying that i was going to get one. then i got another letter saying that it got took for child

support. which i pay child support every week. because they take it out of my check. gaveon top of that, they $500 to the kids. so it's like, we don't need anything? it wasn't as big a deal because i was working. now that i'm not working and i'm going to be on unemployment in florida which has like an eight week or nine week backlog? i'm going to go months without any kind of income. the people they're supposed to help me with that income, it got taken. host: thank you for sharing your situation with us. >> i'm very sorry to hear that. it's a terrible situation that we are in right now. policymakers should be stepping into make sure that people who are just like you are able to have enough money to not have to

reduce their spending dramatically. that obviously helps you but also means that we are not seeing this drag on the broader economy that will mean if you're not able to pay your rent, if you are not able to buy the ,hings that you need to get by we have this ripple effect where other people would not be getting the income they would otherwise get from your spending. that creates an even worse effect and we get this downward spiral. it's very important that and youkers step in have the kind of relief that you need. you will be, i'm sorry to have heard, out of a job through no fault of your own because of the virus. to haveutely need policymakers stepping in and making sure that you don't see a big income drop as a result of that. i know florida has been particularly tricky to get

unemployment insurance benefits. i think you are right to be concerned about the delay that you might face. i would always say when people have been laid off we have as a country not invested in her unemployment insurance system for decades and so there are these big delays. i always want to say to people if you are laid off and applying for uninsurance but it's, don't give up. keep applying for them. they are yours. we will be able to get them. away, don't get it right the benefits that you get will be retroactive. so just keep trying. you will eventually get through and get that money. theow people don't have luxury of having no money in the meantime. it's going to be very hard to get by. just keep trying. host: that last caller talked

about the fact that he was considered an essential work at one point. speak to us about essential workers in this country. how many of them are there? how are they faring right now? >> there's no clear definition of essential workers. states have defined them differently. when you think about the things that we all need in order to get workers, grocery store in my mind are obviously essential work is. first responders clearly essential workers. who are doing other kinds of administered of things that we absolutely need -- administrative things that we absolutely need to keep functioning as a society. people like waste management. we absolutely need that to happen. it's a very broad swath of people. when you think about what is an essential worker, about what do you see that you need to

actually make it through from day to day. those are the people that have to keep going to work despite risks they may be facing. one of the things that's true about essential workers, many of them have historic been very low paid work. for example in grocery stores. they are providing the services that we all need to make it through this global pandemic and are typically very low paid work. -- workers. this has really shown a light on what does it mean to be essential and should we think about how those jobs are compensated going. host: stephen, calling on the line for essential workers what kind of work you do and what is your situation? >> i'm a factory worker, laborer. i've been making plastic pipe for 38 years.

out with the broke pandemic, we received papers in case they got pulled over that we could make it back to work in pennsylvania. in our area of the lehigh valley, it's a very big industrial center with the cement mills and warehousing that supplies everything on the east coast now to new york city. when our governor took over everything and shipped all the ppe to new york and when they found all that stuff in the warehouse with all the ppe and they kept screaming about new york and northern new jersey got it in on the eastern end of pennsylvania we started getting slammed. we saw a lot of workers who were democrats were changing their tune real quick because they saw what was happening with politics in this. frome who were laid off their jobs were earning $1200 a week when this all started.

so they weren't hurting moneywise. because i make at least that every two weeks for take-home pay. been livingho have high off the hog, you have to get out there and think for yourself how to survive this with everything you do at home. luckily my wife and i had always prepared for an eventual problem with the citizenship in the united states in case something would take a turn. happening wasn't just overnight. they did several exercises on this from 2001 up until now. just in case something would hit. now everybody is being told makes messages from everybody, but your economic activity starts in the home and your economic activity will

eventually go all the way to the ends of the earth and the united states. everybody's american dream has to be readjusted right now. host: thank you for calling. >> one of the things the caller brings up, i do think that this really highlights just how important government is. to have a really good well-functioning government that when we have a crisis like this, for many people there's nothing they can do. for most people in this country, the way they make it week to week is through the labor market people don't have wages for most people in this country aren't high enough that they are able to put a lot of money away for savings for a catastrophe like this. no matter how responsible and scrupulous they have been, wages for decades now have not been

high-end enough to give people that cushion. it juste like this becomes doubly important that the government really step in and make sure that people's incomes don't drop even if they aren't able to work so that when we are able to safely reopen we have that confidence and demand that we are able to get people back to work and get the economy back on track again. i think this downturn really highlights how incredibly important it is that we have our government operating like a well oiled machine to step in and give people what they need to make it through this horrible pandemic until we can get out the other side. host: air guest has a phd in economics from the university of michigan. --s theme has come a couple come up a couple times today. consumption is 70% of our economic engine. why is the stock market

reproaching record highs? re-approaching record highs? >> it highlights how incredibly different real economy is and the stock market. the vast majority of people in this country have little to no holdings in the stock record at all. stocksen you include held indirectly in retirement and counsel. it is something only a third of least $15,000 at in the stock market even including stocks held indirectly in retirement accounts. it's just a very small amount that holds most of the stock. it's not a reflection of what is actually going on in the economy whatsoever. the charts that we see coming out now that show layoffs spiking, it just under stores

this. i'm an economist. i almost never look at the stock market in order to get a sense of what's going on. because it doesn't actually reveal information about how the people of this economy are faring. host: we have joann on the line from washington d.c. we understand you have been laid off. caller: yes. i'm furloughed from a system of hospitals. suchon't need to market in a situation. money is tight at hospitals. in d.c. andliving working in maryland. after six weeks of applying and applying, no payment is coming out.

manysituation with so other people. we have our own facebook page. my question is in a national where the president can mandate companies to produce whatever is necessary, wouldn't it be good if the federal government could mandate that the state labor department offices work extra hours or weekends or bring in a national guard to sit at desks and answer phones because you can't get through on the phone. you can't get anything online or emails or in the mail. there's a lot of us who don't have the money to put into the economy even if businesses open. story, we are hearing that echoed over and over again. it's a terrible situation. i would say keep trying.

when you do get your benefits, it will be retroactive. so that will help i know that leads -- leaves a massive gap. have this invented -- this invested in our unemployment programs all over the country for decades. we started to see state unemployment insurance agencies put out requests, they needed to hire people who were cobol programmers. that is a programming line which that i learned in the 80's. it's an ancient language. states uihat most agencies still run on cobol just understands -- underscores how much we haven't invested in these programs so that we do not have the world-class unemployment insurance assistance programs that we would need in order to be able to the crisislely

and make sure people at the benefits that they need. disinvestment, it's working people who are paying the price for that it's people like this caller who are paying the price for that it's a terrible price to pay. one of the things i've said is the problem is we go into a big recession with the insurance system we have, not the one we want. to keepcome around trying, you will get the benefits eventually. i know that is small solace now. we have to make sure after this that we learn this lesson. make sure we are investing in these systems so this doesn't happen to work again. people should be able to get

their benefits quickly, keep them and the economy afloat. host: tina from alabama. always milton friedman showed the production of money was tied to liver and the computer price index -- consumer price index -- tied to labor. and the consumer price index is tied to that at the hip. at what point does inflation become a harm to us? >> we don't have to worry about that right now. interest rates are extremely low. it is important to mention that we have a ton of fiscal resources right now. inflation happens when there's a ton of demand that overheats the economy. that is the opposite problem that we have at this point and given that we have on the order of dirty million people out of work, we are not going to face a

until thesehis things will be able to work out. spendnow every dollar we is an important resource to go towards avoiding a much longer period of elevated unemployment that will do far more persistent lasting damage to the economy. when we are in good times, we don't want to do a whole much of deficit spending necessarily. at a time like this, it's different policy prescription given how the economy is. >> c-span's washington journal live every day with news and policy issues that impact you. discussed the latest on the federal response

to the coronavirus pandemic with virginia republican congressman ben cline and tom suozzi. watch washington journal live at 7:00 eastern this morning. join the discussion. book, "talking to strangers, malcolm gladwell talks about things that people making accurate judges about things people do not know. >> i am going to drag you out of here. get out of t>> in prison for resisting arrest and and she hangs yourself in herself. a tragic and unexpected result. saw whichnge that we goes on and on and on -- we saw a small snippet. iat was the kind of -- when

first saw that online, that is what i realized i wanted to write about because if you write that exchange now -- down, you see multiple failures of understanding of empathy of a million things. >> sunday night at 8:00 eastern on q&a. ♪ >> c-span has unfiltered coverage of congress, the white house, the supreme court and publicly -- public policy events. now the federal response to the coronavirus. you can watch all of c-span's public affairs programming on television, online or listen on our free radio app. be a part of the national conversation through c-span's washington journal