>> c-span's "wall street journal," every day. we are taking your calls live on the area. on the news of the day, and we will discuss policy issues that impact you. coming up sunday morning, former member of the obama administration's task force on st century policing, discusses police reform efforts in the wake of george floyd's death. then former trump economic advisor, casey mulligan talks about the cost of shutting down the u.s. economy over coronavirus fears. watch "wall street journal," live at 7:00 eastern sunday morning, and be sure to join the discussion with your phone calls, facebook comments, text messages and tweets. join the discussion. >> we are joined by peniel joseph of the university of texas at austin.

peniel joseph. good morning. i was about to read to our viewers a column you have call thehere you george floyd death a moment of generational opportunity. what youxplain to us mean by generational opportunity here? guest: these protests we are at longrovide, finally, last, this generational opportunity to confront and have a plan to end institutional racism in all facets of our society, to defeat white to institutionalize black dignity and citizenship, and to finally achieve our country. this is about more than the criminal justice system. it needs to be transformed from top to bottom in the united states, but the justice system

is a gateway to panoramic systems of oppression connected to welfare, education, housing, employment, childcare, health care, segregation, inequality in neighborhoods, inequality in our tax policy, homelessness, mental health and physical health. -- whate so hopeful is hopeful about this moment is the number of people who have come out peacefully, the large numbers of white allies who are part of this movement as well. they see their stories in the collective tragedy of not just george floyd but beyond it and so many thousands who have been killed, but even more who have been killed by the structural violence of institutional racism and white supremacy. i have been heartened by the

number of people who have reached out to me in austin, texas connected to the business community, civic community, civil rights organizations, faith leaders, and even law enforcement who want to change and transform the status quo in the united states, people are marching, protesting, but they are also interested in policy changes. what they can do at the local level. premature deaths for black people, what can be put into invest in communities to streets, bute neighborhoods that are racially integrated where people are living as one community all around the world -- country? you do at thewhat center for the study of race and democracy at the university of texas. tell us what it does and what

people can see in the public from what you do. research fellows, both undergraduate and graduate, who are doing research based here in austin at the intersection of race and democracy, on the voting rights act, housing, criminal justice. some of their policy briefs can be found online. we do public gatherings and convening's where we -- convenings where we bring some of the best leaders around issues of race and democracy. we have had speakers like the president of the league of the gates, fund, henry louis khalil mohammed, to come together to talk about what we -- in a public history and educational way to transform social and political

and racial inequities in our time. devoted tonner racial justice, antiracism, -- we are a center devoted to racial justice, antiracism, but focusing on the policy mechanisms that will achieve equality. i want to go back to this generational opportunity comment. the protests over george floyd different from any of the protests we have seen in the past, going back to trayvon martin, michael brown, eric garner? what makes these different? guest: i think a few things. the constellation of the covid-19 pandemic. on one level, we could say george floyd out re-in the covid-19 pandemic only to be felled by the far deadlier virus of white supremacy on may 25,

202. 0. the combination of the pandemic has raised national consciousnesses. it was not just black people talking about it. this was mainstream america. death, byt harder by being identified as diagnosed with covid-19, but also we were more vulnerable to it because of these long-standing inequities, including african-americans seem more public facing workers at the post office, amazon, delivery services, meatpacking, who were very much vulnerable to cover 19. mass unemployment. 40 million people out of work. aboutemployment went down 2% with the new figures. african-american unemployment went down .01%.

coupled with the latest tragedy. different this time is that we see widespread multiracial, multicultural demonstrations. even though this is about black lives, this is also about just american citizenship. you are seeing so many different asian,latinx, indigenous, so many people who people fromrans, different communities who understand that the structural violence utilized to kill george prematurely, impacts their own lives. that is what is so hopeful and inspiring about this time. when we think about these past protests, i have been indicated withdent -- inundated calls about how different stakeholders can help.

we are not seeing the same kind of pushback. when we think about black lives matter and people saying all lives matter, blue lives matter. people get it. we understand now that the nfl protests were not about the flag. it is not about trying to disrespect the flag or america. in theest patriotism united states is when you see something wrong, you speak up in defense of that person's humanity, citizenship, in defense of this country's values. really are seeing now is -- as somebody who is a christian and who grew up in a black baptist church in new york city, this is the call on the road to the damascus moment for the united states, where paul was a soldier, was doing bad. he had this epiphany and he het, he this prop

becomes some willing to die for his beliefs on behalf of humanity. there have already been announcements at the local level of different municipalities who to redistributing funds used incarcerate, demonize, and punish black and brown communities to invest. we have seen nfl players come out with a video that made me cry. during the past days, i have cried several times, including seeing the george floyd video. i cried when i saw the nfl players say i am breonna taylor, ahmaud arbery, george floyd. men, women,t children who have been dying over the past few decades. we know it needs to happen and i am heartened so many people have come out to promote racial

justice and equality. host: you speak of pushback. one of our social media followers was to push back on you right now. i will let you answer this. says "can you point to actual evidence that proves mr. floyd's death was an issue of racism, as opposed to a power-hungry cop or two men who did not like each other?" the pattern of police violence historically against african-american communities, whether it is breonna taylor or michael brown or the police who stopped sandra texas when here in she was on her way to texas a&m for her first job. we know, historically in contemporaneously, there is

systematic evidence of police bias and racism against african-american communities. that person, you can definitely look at the department of justi ce's report on baltimore and other cities that found systematic patterns of anti-black racism. another data driven report you can look at is when the justice department was led by attorney general eric holder and loretta lynch. eric holder said there were disparate sentencings throughout the united states based on race, where people who are black-and-white and who had committed the same crimes, and those who were african-american received harsher sentences solely based on race. so we had the data and the evidence to prove what was going on. the numbers of african-americans who die from choke holds in police departments, for instance.

right now, the minneapolis police are saying they are going --in that, but we have saying they are going to end that, but we have a history of this. there are books, the war on poverty to the war on crime by elizabeth henton. here,w jim crow, no mercy all thein silence, works of callie gross about black women incarcerated in the 19th and 20th century. so we have the data. what is so important now is that people are ready to the investment in black dignity and citizenship so we can finally, at long last, achieve our country. host: let's have our viewers take part in the conversation, james is calling from charlotte, north carolina. caller: good morning.

the problem i have with some of the intellectuals here, like a person has said the definition -- it could've have been to angry people. i don't even see the reason to explain things like that. these current protests, these young kids have moved on. they don't deal with that silliness. i've never seen a white person on the ground getting choked out. doesn't happen, but to test these minute details that these people are trying to bring up. like they are hitting the police and thinning black people. there are no consequences if you beat a black person and there are consequences if you hit the police. going have got to stop back to deal with these petty

innuendos. these protesters, these young kids have moved on. they are beyond that. they are not playing these silly games with the silly people. that's my comment. i hope you intellectuals stop dealing with that and move on to get to the things that solve the problem. host: go ahead and respond. guest: i couldn't agree more. i think we are moving forward as a nation and one of the things you saw was the push of debt pushback against drew brees about his comments on the flag and patriotism and players telling him in no uncertain terms is not about that. it's about black lives in black humanity. abouts case it's really universal rights and universal humanity, but through the lens of black people. we have to understand that if we achieve black dignity and citizenship it will be for everyone.

cause.our i agree that we have to move steps and concrete terms, holding people accountable. and is 11 days of marching we have to hold our structures accountable and move towards racial justice. it's the work of a generation but we can achieve it. host: since you brought up drew brees i have to ask, doesn't drew brees have the right to think and say what he wants? guest: he has every right. we have the right to educate brother brees. we have the right to save not about the flag, it's about black lives bleeding for democracy since before the founding of the republic. we cannot live in the united states of amnesia, we cannot allow white denial, white fragility to not talk about our lives and our reality.

based oneality is white supremacy. how many black soldiers came back from different floors and were lynched and segregated. world war ii soldiers came back and literally had their eyes gouged out. we have a horrific history. it might not be something that brother drew brees understands, but he should be educated on that history before he speaks out against that history and the current reality. absolutely. host: felix is calling from north carolina. good morning. c-span,r. joseph, america, good morning, how are you? host: doing just fine. guest: i have a couple of things to say, you have a gentleman from pennsylvania on your last segment talking about the whiskey rebellion. america has a rich history of political and mercantile protests.

it was called on december 16 simmer 16th 17 set -- december 16 1773 with the boston tea party. and there's a solution that might be very simple that's overlooked, whenever people do that, like mr. floyd. ieir first offense is subjectively feel my life is threatened, so i have a right to defend myself, even with deadly force. , in myively means opinion, it's the way he feels, not evidence. from change that subjectively to objectively, meaning there is fact, that at the time of death the police officer actually has evidence that his life is in danger, not like mr. floyd with four people on his back. one of the people you can hear saying get up and get in the

respond, his response i will if i get -- if you get off my back. thank you. america, we love you. have a good day. host: go ahead and respond. criminalen it comes to justice what i will say is this, it's more about -- it's more than transforming the criminal justice system, it's where we invest as a nation and how do we bring the nation together in equality. part of that has to do with not investing resources in a criminal justice system which is designed to contain, punish, incarcerate, and criminalize the entire african-american population. including people who are wealthy and famous who have been racially profiled who have run into the police. disadvantaged and those who have been incarcerated. can transform this is not necessarily more body

we have to plow massive resources into communities, black communities, where those resources have not been put in over the last 50 years. we went from a war on poverty to a war on crime in the context of the great society. putting the federal government in the business of fighting crime and we define crime as black people. not just black adults, but black children, which is why we have children being punished and expelled from public schools. we have five and six-year-old black children who are arrested in handcuffs. this is a crisis, we are in a national emergency. that's why we are seeing the protests. host: i had to ask this question. you see peaceful demonstrations, you have seen separately looting and vandalism. what are those -- are they

connected in any way? does one make the other less important? i would add a third, there's an article in the new york times discussing the police writing that has happened -- rioting that has happened. there's massive peaceful protest, we have documented evidence of not only police brutality in places here in austin, in my hometown, a 20-year-old man is in a coma after being hit in the head with a rubber bullet, two people have lost eyes to rubber bullets, we have seen pepper spray and tear gas used in ways that are not professional, they are about punishing and violence. we psy 75-year-old man being pushed and cracked his skull in buffalo. there's peaceful protest, police violence in places like new york

city, my hometown, where the mayor has no control over cops were brutalizing protesters, and looting. those are three different things. i don't thing the violence that we are seeing overwhelms the message for people who have empathy in their hearts and are ready to understand the message. we should not see any violence, what we are seeing violence from not peaceful protesters, but from two sources, a law enforcement that is outraged that their authorities being questioned, their legal authority in their moral morality -- and their authority, and we are seeing looting and violence by people trying to take advantage of mass gatherings. those are three things. i would argue that we are at a place in our history where the idea of saying that because of this violence we need more law &

order like 1968, we will appeal to the silent majority which was really an appeal to white supremacy. we will use code words like law & order, thugs, intercity -- inner-city, underclass. those days are over. no more. people understand and a cross racial, multi-ratio, multi generational, all thai class multi-class even way that we know it's at stake. how can we build a society where peaceful protest flourishes, where police are allies in the peaceful protest and we make sure that when we are having those peaceful protests, no one can take advantage and try to loot and foam and violence. but the police will not also indiscriminately target and attack american citizens for asserting their regal -- legal

right to peaceful protest. is calling from montana. good morning. guest: good morning. a thousand things to talk about. everybody getting hurt on both sides of the line, and there's a curfew, 8:00. if you are out after curfew, nobody would have been hurt if they were at home. and it's cry, cry, cry, cry. there's black cops getting hurt but you don't hear about that. you have black tops getting killed, you don't hear about that. you only hear about the blacks getting shot.

george floyd is the ninth black country, year in the we hear all about black men get shot, but if you look at the statistics, 19 white people have been shot this year and armed by cops. blow it something, you up and always me, me, me, us, us, us, poor us. there's jobs to be had, employers all over the country looking for help. there are people who don't want to work. living off of i don't know, selling drugs, they have to do something for a living. but this is insane. host: go ahead and respond. years the man who was 75 old in buffalo is a great example of authoritarianism. we should not be up for --

promoting an authoritarian society and that we have seen such a police brutality and violence during the last 11 days shows us that we have something fundamentally wrong in our justice system. blackis is something activists have been saying first century. part, terms of the other that's part of the narrative of anti-black racism. that is black people were complaining when really white people had produced the wealth of this country, both through racial slavery, but also their labor and their labor being exploited, including in this age of mass incarceration. there is monetary value on every black life, but it's not accrued by black people. it's accrued by corporate powers , by groups by the national

football league, by people who are benefiting from a racial cast system that we have in the united states and that even if you are a poor white person you have real privilege and better treatment from the criminal in a way that a black person, does not have. that kind of denial is exactly what this protest shows we are moving past. another question from a social media follower who wants to ask about a different topic. this is from chris. what is the importance of removing conservative ron -- monuments around the country in the context of the george floyd protest? we saw the removal of the robert and astatue in virginia few confederate statues in one of the outlying cities around

washington d.c. guest: it's unbelievably important to remove confederate symbols. the confederacy is a symbol of white supremacy and treason against the united states of america. the civil war was an act of insurrection against the constitution and against the declaration of independence. --celebrate robert ely isert ely -- robert e lee the same thing as celebrating a war criminal. so understand that we have such an intense problem with education and a narrative of understanding what this country is founded on. ofs founded on the principle citizenship and liberty and equality for all. and it sounded on the principles of racial slavery. but we have expanded american democracy and fought the civil war over the issue of slavery.

it's about states right -- is not about states rights, it's about slavery. whether america is going to be antislavery or a flourishing proslavery economy. the confederacy is a national shame, it's a national embarrassment for the united states. for those who cling to the canederacy and say that you cling onto these monuments while not exposing your allegiance to white supremacy, those days are over. the confederate statues all over the united states should be taken down. the people we should praise, are those who gave their lives to defend american democracy and promote racial equality and racial integration and racial justice. we have had historically white allies who gave up their lives blacks, people being abused and oppressed.

the confederacy is something that should be relegated to teaching and studying so we should learn -- so we can learn mistake ofat the worshiping at the altar of white supremacy and black dehumanization. --t: jimmy is calling from jenny is calling from greenville, south carolina. guest: good morning. had,f the questions i've mimi me about african-american people. and what if he had the police would him on the ground, put him, put three on his back and one knee on his , and i bet you then he will say me, me, me. -- i will sayion

it like this, i never had any respect for the kkk, the white supremacists. been an instance it's they fight fair weapons.ns or gangs or host: go ahead and respond. was reallyconnection rough, what was she asking? host: she was discussing the use protesters in america and what you think about

that, that was the summary. guest: oh this is where we have withechoes historically the civil rights movement. one of the things that the narrative of the civil rights whitent sanitizes is vigilante violence and police violence against peaceful demonstrators. --remember selma alabama salmon, alabama. a congressman had his goal cracked on the bridge. and we remember birmingham, alabama. german shepherds and fire hoses that could strip the bark off of trees that were directed against protesters peacefully marching. of there will be scores time, including dr. king almost being killed in canton, mississippi, and police were the ones precipitating the violence. law enforcement has been used as

a vehicle to constrain and punish black citizens throughout american history. blackot of ways, when people come out peacefully to citizensthey are not and blackorcement, lies have never been defended by law enforcement in a meaningful racialn you about massacres throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries. theust commemorated anniversary of tulsa, oklahoma, which was mastercard -- massacred. thatuse of violence, now we have so many white protesters were being victimized, it's casting a strobe light and exposing all of our illusions

about american democracy. all of these lies that america tells itself. that's an opportunity. that's how you can have change through this exposure. and the way that we have so many white allies in states like utah and oregon, people protesting and saying that black lives matter it and this needs to be institutionalized is something .hat's beautiful and hopeful i agree with dr. martin luther king jr., who said that love defeats hate. violence, wes should utilize peaceful protest, and really utilize the power of policy change alongside empathy to change institution, structures, hearts, and minds, but we are at an inflection point. this is a watershed moment. we've never seen anything like this.

and we are ready for this generational opportunity. this is not necessarily about our elected leaders, even though voting matters. this is not about the president of the united states, who is a to these demonstrations and these protests. people want to transform this country. you do that locally. you do that regionally. you do it statewide, then you do it nationally. but this is about where you act, in your own backyard. where is the inequality and how can you push the situation? host: you have a new book out called the sword and the shield, a revolutionary lives novel of martin luther king jr.. quotingseen a lot of from art as are king jr., a ride as the language of the unheard. it's been used a lot lately. how do we interpret that quote for today? who i haveking,

studied my whole life, somebody who was a nonviolent political revolutionary who sided always with the poor, the meek, and the disadvantaged. what he meant when he said a riot if the language of the unheard is that we as a society have to dig deep and find out what were the roots of the mass protests and demonstrations and civil disturbances and political rebellions. there were hundreds between 1963 in 1968. dr. king's last full year on this earth was 1967 which had two big civil disturbances in newark, new jersey, and detroit, michigan. what dr. king said with the more we see a narrative of -- of law & order, and political oppression, not from one party

or another but in a bipartisan way, dr. king said we cannot just look at the violence without looking at the roots behind the violence. are we having a violent society that is racially integrated where children are being fed and nourished and everyone has decent housing and universal basic income and good employment and they are still being violent? youhat's the case then yes, can say we have to stop this. but king said the violence is coming out of deep structural inequities in the united states, based on antiblack racism, based on white supremacy. king is not the only person he said this, but the kerner commission, published in march of 1968 said the same thing. the united states is moving black, two nations, white, separate, hostile, unequal. generationalother opportunity to transform

american democracy. violently down on containing and incarcerating and punishing an dis-investing in black communities. this is what we have wrought. book is about malcolm x and martin luther king jr.. one of malcolm x's famous closes the chicken is coming home to roost, he said that in the aftermath of president kennedy's assassination periods not -- assassination. not to delight, but to say that the violence has boomerang to and the sitting president was unjustly assassinated. the chickens have come to roost in the united states of america now. racism,ns all of the the economic inequality, the mass incarceration and investment from black communities and investment in

withnities to punish, racial segregation in public school segregation and the legal decisions which have set us away from the desegregation, which have virtually nullified the voting rights act, to use voter id to prevent black and brown people from voting has voter suppression and further racial segregation and black suffering. amplifying9 crisis, african-american vulnerability, pre-existing vulnerability and showed a panoramic system. all of this is coming home to unrest.d civil we can respond in two ways. we can say we are going to be the law & order nation and give over 50 something percent of our votes to george wallace and richard nixon, a combination of

repugnantst morally racists in the 20 century or we could choose love over hate. .ntegration over segregation we can choose justice over .iolence we can choose to nourish and feed our population, to desegregate our population and to embrace with an e to policy transformation what this country needs. is that dr. king argued the united states's whole purpose was to achieve freedom. in a letter from a birmingham jail he said the young people who are being imprisoned and incarcerated in birmingham, alabama, to try to desegregate the city, were bringing the whole nation to those great wells of democracy which were dug deep by the founding fathers. to achieve thee beloved community in our own time. a community free of racial

injustice, multicultural, multiracial, a community that adheres to a love ethic. justice is what love looks like in public. this is a community that is antipoverty. it's a community that not only lgtbqtes lgt bq -- sisters and brothers but embraces them. we have health care and universal basic income and housing and we are not antagonistic but we understand that collectively and mutually we have to live together to thrive as a democracy. host: let's get a couple of callers before the end of the segment. reginald is calling from amarillo, texas. guest: how are you doing today? --caller: how are you doing today? guest: i am well. all of the black people

that have been fighting for this country up, they don't care about us, going to tell you something. like people, if we don't get out of this country, they are going to kill us. they love us when we play sports , when we play in the nfl, we are nothing but million-dollar slaves. host: go ahead and respond. guest: that statement speaks for itself. i don't agree that we should be publicly executing anyone, what we are trying to achieve is the beloved community that dr. king talked about but that requires shared sacrifice. that requires black people and , asian ande, latinx

indigenous people of goodwill to come together. we are talking about at the granular level we live in a country where black people don't have access to the best neighborhoods because of zoning policies, density policies. we need to transform that, even poor whites get access to the supply chain of privilege that comes with having access to nice neighborhoods with resources. and black people go supply of grief and criminalization which comes from being in racially segregated ghettos. we have a generational opportunity to reimagine american democracy. daysracy over the last 11 will be in boardrooms, schoolrooms, it's on social media, where people are saying we have to to change the status quo. we have to change the status quo because it's not tenable for the flourishing of democracy.

and we all want the country to flourish. caller, steve, from ohio. guest: thank you very much. now,nk democracy, right has spread its wings. i think the people are catching on to what's going on in the country. parallel, in order to curb , i violence, or looting think for example the mayor, mayor de blasio should direct to marche department within protesters. maintain am, to peaceful march. host: should police be marching

with the protesters? guest: i think lee should be defending protesters. protesters are not anti-police. they are anti-ace system that is using the police at the tip of marginalize and brutalize black people. i think police should understand that and we should have a society that reimagines policing, that we have proper not at thebut expense of our children, our babies, our families, our communities. our clean water for us to drink. and also decent housing and proper education. there is a way we can transform society, where we have a new deal for everyone. where we transform the miserable condition on the face of this earth and really transform what

we mean by citizenship. right now we don't have black dignity and citizenship for the black people in this country. if we achieve that it will reverberate to all groups that are being marginalized. all groups that are being oppressed. all groups that are overly incarcerated. lifetime,this in our we have a generational opportunity, we can roll up our city -- our sleeves and get to work. the greatest act of love and patriotism is the right to protest for right. that's what people are doing. people in the streets are the patriots, they love this country more than the country has left them back, historically. they are ready to transform this thetry, we have to look at optimism. would like to thank penial joseph,

>> next week, the house and senate closed hearings on response of the coronavirus and lawns person -- and law enforcement. the cares act and the role of insurance during the pandemic. wednesday on c-span, the house judiciary committee hearing on law enforcement cabability. c-span3, secretary of the treasury steven mnuchin testifies on the implementation of title i of the cares act. watch next week live tuesday and wednesday on c-span and c-span3, on c-span.org or the c-span radio app. protests are taking place

across the country in response to the killings of george floyd by police in minneapolis. this is the ninth day of demonstrations in washington, d.c., this one by the white house. and on capitol hill, crowds passed by the senate office building on constitution avenue. a number of roads have been closed in the nation's capital, limiting the routes protesters can take. here is a look at the scene near the white house on saturday. that yellow church is st. john's episcopal church where president held up the bible. in front of that is lafayette park, across the street from the white house, now closed to the public. >> former president barack obama