, and this is the system people would challenge and challenge at an increasingly high level, 1950's andin the mid- into the 1960's, and of course we know that challenges the civil rights era, and some refer to it as the second reconstruction. congressional black caucus chair karen bass discusses legislation to address police violence and profiling in the wake of george floyd's death. live coverage begins monday at 2:30 p.m. eastern on c-span. alex vitale, a sociology professor and the author of the book "the end of policing." thank you for joining us. guest: good morning, pedro. narrator: could you give the

audience of what your view of what the police should be in current society? guest: i think it is not so much about what the police should be, it is what we should be doing instead of policing in as many situations as possible. the problem is we have come to over rely on police to solve every social problem under the sun. it puts police in this untenable position where they are expected to be social workers, youth counselors, mental health experts,s, and housing and they can't do all of those things. to defund police isn't just about throwing out police. -- itabout throwing is about thinking of why we give these problems to police and put money back into initiatives that would lead them safer. host: what would lead you to believe that police do things

outside of the purview of actually policing, which you describe? guest: up to a quarter of all witheople interacting police have a mental health crisis. they getle call 911, an armed police response and they are not equipped to manage those calls as well as they should be managed. that is one example. we are using police in school to deal with disciplinary issues that is resulting in kids under 10 years old being put in handcuffs. in new york city, we have more nypd personnel assigned at city schools than all counselors and social workers combined. those are just misplaced priorities. narrator: you mentioned defund the police movement that has been in the news for the last couple days. can you specify what you think that means?

there's a lot of definitions going around, as you know. guest: i don't think anybody planned to have a movement called defund the police or defund the police, but there has been a movement on the ground, even before the events in minneapolis, to get communities to re-shift their funding priorities. people use language like divest from police, invest in communities, or build communities, or justice reinvestment, but all of it requires explanation and does not fit easily on a cardboard sign. what people are talking about is going in and looking closely at city budgets, and identifying spending that goes to police initiatives that would be better handled in the community. also, for some people, it means they would prefer to live in a world that does not require people with guns to maintain safety and order. i would like to live in a world like that as well. no one is talking about a situation where there is some magic switch and, prove,

tomorrow there are no police. nosuch switch exists and city council will zero out the police budget in the next year. there is intentional fear mongering out there to misrepresent what this movement is about to undermined its goals. host: is there a model in your mind of the police department in the united states when it comes to your idea police? guest: there are lots of examples of places doing some part of it. in eugene, oregon, they don't use police to go on mental health calls. people dealing with a crisis while homeless or involving substance abuse. nonprofit clinicians. and results have been good. parts of nevada, it is not perfect, but it reduces harm for sex workers and improves public

health outcomes. internationally, places like portugal and europe have decriminalized all drugs. they disband the narcotics unit, get the people out of the drug business, and turn it to public health officials. europe, they've never heard of school policing. they think we are crazy that we fill our schools with police. they have high quality counselors, afterschool programs, and they don't criminalize their children. there are a lot of examples of how to do that. my book has hundreds of footnotes with examples of studies and reports that show what we could be doing instead. host: "the end of policing," is the book we are referencing. here to take your calls. if you want to ask him questions, it is (202) 748-8001 for republicans. democrats are (202) 748-8000. independents are (202) 748-8002. if you want to tax us, you can

do it at -- text us, you can do a debt (202) 748-8003. if you are law enforcement and you want to give us a call, (202) 748-8003 that you can call there too. house democrats unveiling a list of proposals when it comes to efforts of reforms. senate republicans working on the same legislative effort. do you think there is something there as far as offering these reforms? guest: i think there is something there. it is important to keep in mind policing is almost an entirely local affair in this process will have to get solved in the local budget process. that is what is happening around the country, but at the federal level, there is stuff the federal government can do. harm are important reduction elements to the bills under consideration now, things like eliminating no knock raids and ending the use of chokeholds , but there is a lot of what i think are more superficial procedural reforms that are not really going to fix police.

we have had five to six years of the obama administration, local mayors telling us they will fix policing by giving them implicit bias training and having police community in counter sessions, and minneapolis adapted -- adopted almost all of this, and it didn't make a difference. if we want to reduce the burden of policing on communities of color, we need to get them resources, reduce public safety and other ways that does not rely on people with guns. that is what is at the heart of the defined movement. host: on the house democrats side, some of those prohibiting improves, and investigations of the federal level. our guest mentioned some of those elements. as far as on the federal level, is there something to a more investigative nature on investigating these types of crimes, the causes, and then

offering remedy to that? guest: i'm not enthusiastic about more federal investigations. even under the obama administration, when the investigations became common, we have little to show for it. there is a lot of research to show they were not effective. we have 18,000 independent police departments in this country. you just can't investigate them all. we really need much more robust reforms, and there is a bill under development that i have seen draft language for that talks about reducing federal subsidies for hiring more police and building more prisons, and instead putting that money into exactly the kinds of community identified specific strategies for increasing public safety. things like credible messenger programs to reduce violence, and better funding for community-based mental health services.

host: you talked about other things police have to do on a day-to-day basis. what is your belief on the core function of police? of the day, end what should they just be doing? guest: it's important to keep in rind -- keep in mind that police are violence workers. that is what distinguishes them from other sectors of government. when we try to imagine then we will try to turn them into social workers or community outreach workers, we are misunderstanding the nature of the job. because they are violence workers and because there is a long history of racial discrimination within policing, we should try to use policing as a tool of last resort. even when we may have evidence of their effectiveness, it comes with huge collateral consequences of violence, racial discrimination, and driving more people into a system of mass incarceration. are the things we need violence workers? certainly there are today.

i don't know what that would look like at the end of a process of trying to put in place real alternatives. we have strategies for dealing with youth violence. we have strategies for reducing sexual assaults, or reducing the number of burglaries. i think it is time we give those strategies a try as we balance the need for those violent interventions with the ability of communities to come up with better, less violent options. host: our first call for alex vitale is from illinois. patrick, democrats line. go ahead with your question or comment. guest: my comment -- caller: thank you, alex. my comment is that the police are officers of the court. stemsroblem that we have all the way up to the supreme court. the supreme court passes laws to officers topolice

-- they are passing laws to allow them to act like this and get away with this. on a local level, the court systems are letting them i get to -- letting them get away with it too. it is a problem all the way up to the supreme court. that is my comment. thank you. guest: it is certainly true that the courts have given the police incredible latitude in the use of force. supreme court rulings have allowed police officers to use deadly force based on sometimes flimsy basis. that is one of the concerns i have with some of the procedural reforms being proposed right now is that i don't think we can get courts to really enforce them, because prosecutors and judges have an over back -- have bent over backwards to allow police to operationalize this kind of force. host: new york, republican line, we hear from al. good morning. caller: thank you for taking my

call. i have a question for mr. vitale. thank you for being on. host: you'll have to stop listening to the tv, al. caller: i want to ask you a question as a social worker. you answered most of my questions already and i have one more. , what floyd did not die would be the changes proposed to fix these things? guest: great. thatis is not a movement fell out of the sky when mr. floyd was killed. it was a movement that was already percolating, kind of under the media radar, all across the country. there are dozens of cities that have had campaign underway to shift funding from jail, youth lockups, and police into community identified needs.

they closed the workhouse campaign in st. louis -- campaign, and st. louis is trying to redirect funding from a horrible jail there to youth programs and mental health services. folks in salinas, california push back against hiring school police and asked that money be put into community health needs like drug treatment services. this is a movement that was already underway and will continue, regardless of the events of minneapolis. host: i suppose you have heard this question, if some of these reforms you advocate for and others were to take place at the end of today, someone wants to feel safe where they live, how would you address those concerns? caller: the whole drive -- guest: the whole drive of this movement is about increasing public safety. the problem is, in too many communities in the united states, people all don't think police are the best source of safety. for many of them, they see the police as a force of on

safety. we have a broad problem in so many communities where people don't call police because they feel that will make their situation worse. yes, weave relied -- have relied on policing to maintain a kind of order, but this assumes that is the only possible way to do that. that just isn't the case. process abouta identifying specific things police do now that can be done better by someone else. often, more cheaply. think the events surrounding this time, do you think this will really enact some of those changes, or do you see -- have you seen instances in the past where people talked about these issues but they went by the wayside? guest: we are already seeing changes happening. the mayor of los angeles pledges to shift 150 million dollars from policing to community identified needs. minneapolis is doing a total

rethink on the footprint of policing in consultation with communities, which i think is the right way to go. san francisco and new york also contemplating major funds -- shifting of funds from policing. this is happening. people are turning up by the hundreds. there are budget hearings across the country to demand a rethink on this. i think that will just continue. host: the minneapolis situation, in news yesterday, involved the pullout from the union. in the wall street journal, they say police unions are part of the problem. with that be part of your contention? caller: they are part of the problem. i do not think the solution is to break unions. i am a unionist myself and i'm not in the business of breaking unions. i think we need to ask tough questions about the politics that goes along with their endorsements and campaign contributions. for too long politicians who claim to be concerned about

community safety issues and police accountability have taken that money, without considering what the implications are, and in the last week, dozens of politicians across the country have gone back through their campaign records and have pulled out the money they have received from police unions and turned it over to mutual aid projects. they are rejecting that political relationship with unions who really don't have the public interest at heart in the ways they claim to. host: a member of law enforcement in stafford, virginia. stephen, you are on with our guest. go ahead. caller: i appreciate you taking my call. i have been in law enforcement for 11 years, and prior to that was in the military for seven. as i've listened to this conversation go on not only louisville last -- not only the last couple weeks but what i found was that the voice is missing is the voice of law enforcement officers.

-- rank and file law enforcement officers. there are plenty of academic speaking on the subject, planning of police executives and politicians on the left and right. what is getting lost is the number of law enforcement officers who, rank and file law enforcement officers who also agree that the police department does not need to be, for most cases, militarized to the level it is, and that there are options to improve police in public communication and interactions. host: hold on a second for us, stephen. mr. vitali, do you want to ask our guest a question on that? guest: i want to ask whether or not he things the fraternal order of police and other unions that represent rank-and-file police officers really speak for those officers accurately? that's a difficult question to answer. only the unions

can be an issue but i also think generally speaking that there is and filece among rank officers to speak out, based on appearing, to the system, as a whole to be against the system. host: when it comes then to their rank and file, you mentioned better ways to use that. you have heard probably suggestions over the last couple days. what do you think of those? do you offer any comment on a battery way to use rank-and-file police -- better way to use rank-and-file police? caller: what i would like to see, and i either don't have the bandwidth or knowledge to do something like this, is i would like to see a community -- see in communities across the country, an organization separate from police unions and separate from groups that have grants from the department of justice and things of that

nature to give voice to these police officers and to allow them to participate in the discussions. when the minneapolis city -- takes their vote and has their discussion, and i apologize if this has already happened because i haven't been able to follow it quite that closely, on defunding the department there, i think having the opportunity to have this voice of rank-and-file officers that think we can do better involved is important. host: that is stephen who identifies as a member of law enforcement in stafford, virginia. what type of law enforcement do you do, stephen if you want to add it? caller: i would actually rather not. host: we will leave it there. stephen, thank you for the call. do you have anything to add? guest: i think that was illustrative. there are rank-and-file members deeply frustrated with the direction of policing, and there

are groups like the law projectent action that have been in the media and represent those views yet we have officers continually voting for the leadership of these unions who take a very different position in, really spouting a lot of toxic political ideas, some of which i think are out light -- outright racist. so we don't know who is a viable partner in this conversation. while there are people that one perform, they are intimidated. ofme, that is more evidence how broken this institution is. host: from constance in virginia, democrats line, you are on with our guest. caller: good morning. about policing, we have to go back to the whole idea of policing and where it started. it started with slavery, where slave masters wanted to control

their cattle property, so-called, by any means necessary. systematicallylt in the system from that day forward. even in the constitution itself where blacks were considered three quarters of a human being. animals with at as no control over our faculties, and that has not changed. you look atly, if all or most of the laws that have put into place -- have been put into place, is to control by any means necessary. peopleds and hearts of have to change for this to change. host: ok. constance in virginia. vitale,li, go ahead -- go ahead. caller: i talked about this in the book.

it is also about colonialism and the attempted extermination of indigenous populations by groups like texas rangers. but especially in the northern cities, it is about labor control. policing is created in the early 19th century to manage the influx of working-class immigrants and shape them into an industrial workforce. there were similar dynamics underway in europe. policing unable systems of exploitation. that is why we should have deep skepticism about the decision of politicians to turn more and more problems over to them to manage. host: tell our viewers about the program at brooklyn college, the policing and social justice project. caller: the project is an -- guest: the project is an independently grant funded project that works on developing alternatives to policing. in new york, we is -- we recently issued a problem with

anti-gang in new york. the use of secret databases and conspiracy cases that have led to hundreds of thousands of young people being needlessly criminalized instead of being helped through targeted youth intervention programs that deal with past traumas, that try to interrupt the cycle of violence at the interpersonal level and try to direct kids onto a more positive, prosocial path. the: steve in arizona, republican line, you're next. good morning. .aller: greetings pedro and al i hope i can call you al. jumper.arty i turned from democrat to republican and i will stay. my comment is about distrust in america. americansunt of distrust government and the police alike, even though most cops are good.

most politicians, that is up to the people's opinion. looking back at how one guy, by his own actions, caused so much turmoil in america, and it has been going on for weeks now, one guy. this shows you how easily americans are prodded into revolt. this is a country that was built on revolt, for crying out loud. it seems the colonial spirit of patriotism has never gone away. there are still a lot of true, blue americans who do not feel that what is going on is right. what is going on is wrong and has been for a long time. the reason this madness is breaking out in american streets is it is a culmination of everything. we are tired of it all, government. am i in agreement? ibelieve i am in -- i believe am. host: ok.

we will let our guest answer that. guest: there is a deep frustration with the leadership of both political parties. we are failing to address this problem head-on. allowed mass homelessness to be entrenched in our society, defunded health services, especially mental health services, and then turned it to police to manage. when police do something wrong, trot out a set of superficial reforms. i also think the george floyd incident is not the cause of this. it is the trigger. at the look back disruptions, uprisings, writing of the 1960's, it was often triggered by policing, but today, we don't understand that as being just about policing. it is about a generational frustration with the direction of the country on the is to of race really -- on the issue of race relations. i think we are facing a similar

crisis today and it extends to not just a broad condemnation of the failure to address racism but the inability of both parties to address the direction of the economy, failing of the environment. there are a lot of problems at stake here. from from idaho, mark there. he identifies as a member of law enforcement. go ahead. caller: thanks for this great conversation. inas in law enforcement early to mid 90's -- in the early to mid 1990's. had a previous color that suggested police officers should be licensed. i agree with -- you had a previous caller that suggested police officers should be licensed. i agree with that. there are bad police officers out there and bad nurses. we have seen news reports of nurses killing their patients, so licensing them might not be a bad thing.

what i'm calling them about is, about 1994, under the clinton administration under the democrats, i was rather a small town police officer. to are forced to go training session where -- and it was all about how to stop anyone, at any time, and how to basically fake probable cause. to do it. my hand and, by the way, the instructor had his head shaved, was in lack military fatigues, the boots and everything, and we were all in our regular, normal police uniforms. i raised my hand and said " aren't we violating basic constitutional rights of the citizens by doing this?" he slammed his fist down the podium and said "do you want to

be a cop or do you want to be a lawyer?" i got up and walked out of the room because i said i don't want to be either one right now. host: mark, thanks for sharing that. mr. vitale? guest: we have a real problem with police training in the united states, this killology mindset that says every moment could be your last and if you don't shoot first, you will end up in a box. lot of this has led to a needless deaths, for both the public and law enforcement. we see law enforcement put into these situation like no knock raids in the middle of the night, but people think their home is being invaded and shoot back. this endangers police lives as well. we have to completely dial back not just the military equipment but the military mindset.

host: when you say military equipment, what do you mean? guest: the use of these armored personnel carriers. the fact that trump administration is authorizing transfer of bayonets and grenade launchers to the local police departments. overusethe misuse and of teargas just in the last two weeks. i think this is completely inappropriate for civilian police. illegalally would be for our military to use in this way. it would be a violation of international law. host: the transfer of military equipment to the local police forces not just a trump administration program but it has existed for a while. guest: it has existed for a while. it began in the clinton administration. i only mention that because the obama administration tried to dial its back and restricted some of the equipment that could be transferred. the trump administration lifted those restrictions. host: one of the topics that have emerged from this kind of

discussion we have is the use of body cameras. overall, how would you rate their effectiveness? guest: not very well am afraid. it's clear when we look around the country, the anger at police, the body camera has not showed. p research shows that body -- p researcht those body cameras are not helping. it is -- this is another bill where we were sold a false bill of goods. host: this is anthony from minnesota and identifies as law enforcement. go ahead. caller: i'm actually a student at a criminal justice program. i want to mention the number of hours required for law enforcement officers not only in mental health but other sectors is not enough. not enough to meet what the

community needs. another thing i want to touch on is the number of police officers that are armed with firearms far exceeds what is needed in the community. whereas there should be a special tier of law enforcement where some specialists are, within shoplifting, theft, and others are burglary and other areas where police officers should be in the aggressive form of carrying firearms. another thing i want to mention is that they should be required to live within the communities and higher education should be pushed on all officers. i feel that is the recruitment of minorities lapse. one key point i want to point out is that federal agencies, not only the fbi but others, says fbi -- says it's a premises high in these agencies were so you get these tactics where if you give someone with a criminal

background, -- if you give someone a criminal background, that limits their success. tot limits their ability seek higher education and other services that would be essential to them to survive, moving forward. lastly, the community engagement with citizens. as a student, where i've said that would help if officers took three to five hours per week to engage with citizens, whether it is plain basketball or attending meetings, that would help because you would be able to create a relationship. would allow for that engagement. the pushback i get from my professors is that, where does the money come from? what are officers being paid out of? thereyou put a lot out for our guest so we will let him respond. guest: i obviously can't address all of those suggestions.

many of these are included in the obama task force on 20% tree policing report. most of them have absolutely no evidence for them. diversifying police, having them live in the community, doing can more -- doing more community outreach, turning police into mental health and social workers. these things don't work. what we need to do is reduce the footprint of policing. instead of turning police into social workers and community organizers, we need to hire more social workers and community organizers. that is really the only way we will get out of this problem. host: herschel in georgia, cedartown, on the independent line. caller: yes. camerase that the body for the police to work. the evidence is in front of everybody that uses them. don't like the police need to be defunded in any way.

if anything else, hire more. a police officer is a person who has to come home and go too. they have to put up a so many things. just watching the rides, being spit on and everything else, it is terrible but they are -- ri ots, being spit on and everything else, it is terrible but let them do their job. that ended officer mr. floyd's life so prosecute him to the end of -- full extent of the law. better,eed to get along but we have to have police, and were always gonna have to have police. or crime will be rampant everywhere. i don't feel like defunding them in any way.

i think ira moore. host: thanks, -- i think hire more. host: thank, caller. caller: there are many people -- guest: there are many people that believe that the only way to reduce -- increased public safety is through arrests, intimidation, and putting people in cages. this is an ideology. and not true. this is deeply conservative and influenced by unconscious or conscious racism. canidea that those people only be effected through threats, violence, or coercion. this is a deeply problematic world view, this thin blue line idea. this is not about demonizing individual officers. i have been a police scholar for over 20 years and have worked with police all over the world. i know police day in and day out are mostly trying to help people

in a very difficult job in some cases, but they are the wrong tool. when people tell us they need more police, they are saying we need more guns, more handcuffs, more arrests to manage our problems. this is just going to make racing class and inequality in the united states worse. host: in pennsylvania, democrat line, darris, go ahead. caller: i wanted to make a comment about the problems we have. years ago, a retired police chief told me the police were there to protect the rich. all of the problems that we are having is intentional. in the confusion is intentional. we attack each other. i know a person in the corporate world, years ago, told me -- asked me a few questions. when i finished, she told me about myself. what i'm saying is that, when

they hire these racist, bigoted policeman, they are doing it intentionally to keep confusion going. the united states says they're the greatest country, the inhest country, the best everything, education, religion, and if all of that -- out of all the strength they have, if they don't eliminate the problems, what will? guest: i will happily leave that there is well. host: what are you looking for over the next few weeks when it comes to this topic? guest: we are in budget season, in many cities across the country. i am looking at ways people are turning out to those local counsel budget hearings and lobbing their councilmembers. i'm happy to say i'm getting phone calls from mayors and city councils from around the country asking for help to try to figure this out, to identify those things we have turned over to

police that could be better handled in other ways. it is an exciting moment and a little overwhelming. host: our guest not only teaches at brooklyn college but is the officer of -- author of "and of policing." journal,'s washington every day we are taking your calls live on the air, on the news of did they, and discussing policy issues that impact you. coming up sunday morning, dr. william shatner discusses the recent surges of covid-19 cases in several states. the wall street journal lingering laying will be on to talk about her book. watch "washington journal," live at seven clock eastern sunday morning. join the discussion with your phone calls, facebook comments, text messages, and tweets.

next, a look at measures related to the coronavirus pandemic that are challenging civil liberties in the u.s. and around the world. including the enforcement of stay-at-home orders and reductions of medical resources. i'm eugene meyer, president of the federal society. for those of you who are interested but did not get a chance to catch the other panels, they will be on our website. to moderate our panel on civil liberties and covid-19, we have a fellow and montane president of aei and longer time focus on these and many other sorts of